Thread 724930969

Why do indie games keep lying about their genre

>>724930969 (OP)
you should be doing cooler things with your autism instead of being pedantic over basically nothing

>>724930969 (OP)
>TBOI not a roguelike
Huh...

Sex with Sacchin, Shiori and that moustache chap

>>724930969 (OP)
Has anyone ever been carried by their avatar harder than Shiori?

>>724931258
wdym?

>>724930969 (OP)
The more tags you put on a game, the more likely it will come up in searches, so it's to a developers advantage to describe their game as a roguelike role-playing strategy simulation action tower-defense card anime shooter beat'em up game.

>>724931131
It sure doesn't look anything like Rogue to me.

>>724931374
I mean Shiori gets views based entirely on how eye catching her model is.

>>724931131
Yes

Unlike those charlatans, I describe my game as such: a third-person linear action-adventure computer game.

>>724930969 (OP)
>a game where you play as a literal bullet firing bullets at bullets isn't a bullethell
Sure buddy

I wish there were no indie roguelikes

>>724931527
I don't understand why faggots still cling to a stiff definition that was made many fucking years ago. It's like still calling FPS games "ego shooters" or calling every fighting game a "street fighter ripoff".

>>724931527
>>724931916
What is a roguelike? I actually don't get it, isnt just perma death and restarting from the beginning?

In this sense wouldnt super Mario brothers be rogue like?

>>724931258
The German, green one. Ce- something Though I will admit it was pretty fun when she played Indiana Jones and the nazis showed up.

>>724932228
Roguelike:
When die: World resets, level resets, items reset. World is randomised every new run.

Roguelite:
Same as above, except you usually have some "meta progression", so you keep some progress between runs. More heals, some stats that go up, etc.

>>724932356
So how isnt Isaac a roguelike then

>>724932847
You unlock items/characters and keep progression

>>724932890
>You unlock items/characters
To use in a fresh run, no permanent stat increases

>>724932890
>keep progression
If you don't want progression just unlock everything from the start then lol

>>724932847
Oh and I forgot to mention that proper roguelikes should be turn-based as well.

Isaac has unlocks, so there's the meta-progression.

>>724932937
>If you don't want progression
So you acknowledge that there is progression.
Having better stat increases in a new run is the equivalent of upgrading your character.
But why does this matter, Isaac isn't a roguelike, more at 11.

>>724933020
>Isaac has unlocks, so there's the meta-progression
For both good and bad items. They don't externally affect your run though.

>>724933021
>Having better stat increases in a new run is the equivalent of upgrading your character
A good percentage of the unlocks just nerf your character or shit up the item pool. They aren't just strictly good.

>>724933104
Fine, but you've now solidified that Isaac is a roguelite, so what are you arguing?

to be fair to edmund, when isaac dropped there wasnt really such a term as "roguelite" and it was part of a big movement to push the boundaries of the genre
that said i have no clue what makes enter the gungeon not a bullet hell game

>>724933192
Probably the cover and dodge roll mechanics, but the game is just a huge mess to me, one that will be even worse in 3D.

>>724931131
True, it has multiple types of meta progression making it a roguelite

>>724931901
I'm pretty sure she's getting views due to being entertaining and hololive branding, if model mattered that much twitch chuubas would be way bigger than they are

Play my 4th-person view under the armpit castroid policelite bodylike game

>>724932253
Ceci carries her model not the other way around. Her sexiest art are all off-model.

>>724932228
A game like Rogue you dumb ass zoomer motherfucker. I understand you want to be hardcore and your mom wont let you but this isn't the way.

>>724932847
Lite. It is a roguelite, not a like.

>>724931131
if you could please consult the chart

>>724931901
the person behind shiori is the oldest EN vttuber, so no, dont get a career that successful if you were shit at it.

According to Google's AI:
The Binding of Isaac is considered a roguelite, as it combines roguelike elements like permanent death and procedural generation with meta-progression systems that allow players to unlock new items, characters, and upgrades over multiple runs. While it has been influential in the roguelike genre, its core mechanics differ from traditional, purist roguelikes which typically lack permanent progression between runs.
>Roguelike: Characterized by permadeath, random dungeon layouts, and a focus on a single, un-upgraded character per run.
>Roguelite: Takes the core elements of a roguelike (permadeath, randomization) but adds a layer of permanent progression that makes subsequent runs easier, such as unlocking new items or abilities that carry over after death.
>The Binding of Isaac: Is a roguelite because players unlock new items and upgrades that become available in future runs, making it easier to progress over time, even though each individual run features permadeath and procedural generation.

>>724930969 (OP)
Edmund looks like that? Damn.

>>724933727
>Isaac is a top down shooter
LMFAO whoever made this chart is mad

>>724933793
>According to Google's AI

this is /v/'s version of media literacy

>>724933727
My chart looks very different
>Does it have permadeath and procedurally generated levels/loot?
>It's a roguelike

hololive won

>>724930969 (OP)
Why Shiori? She's not the dev is she?

>>724933142
bro, take the L, Isaac is a roguelike. you don't gain any permanent powerups between runs. the item pool changing doesn't increase your power.

>>724933727
>do you control a single character from a first or third person perspective
>no
>Do you control a single character in a top down or isometric view
??? whoever made this chart is a retard. top down and isometric views are still third person.

Every time some faggot calls some indieslop a "roguelike", I ask them: "How is it like Rogue?" It stumps their indieslop poser brains and they kys themselves out of shame.

>>724934526
it's rogue because it steals your money without notice

>>724934526
It has procedural generated levels, loot and permadeath. Next question.

>>724931957
what features does it have in common with colossal cave adventure

>>724934526
based

>>724931131
A few autists still insist that only turnbased dubgeoncrawlers with ASCII graphics count as roguelikes. You ca mosty ignore them.

>>724931209
Kek

I get you, TRVE ROGVE fags, I really do. If you are a big fan of this old kind of game, and the name is just thrown around everywhere, it's not helpful. Got the same problem with text adventures, having to filter out VNs and gimmick games to find like 2 games a year that are worth a damn.
But you gotta get a grip, find a new name like assfaggots for your autistic grid-based complex simulation games, just cut the losses when it comes to procedural generation used in other genres. Being obnoxious prescriptivists will just encourage other to spite you. And then you might become a walking parody, like the people insisting that diablo-clone genre is the one that really has to be called "hack and slash". Or get into the perennial holywar about what TRVE RPG really means, even though the connections between Wizardry and Baldur's Gate and Dragon Quest are well-fucking-known.

>>724930969 (OP)
That's not what the dev for Isaac looks like

>>724933727
simplified chart

>>724931131
It's a twinstick shooter. Randomized environments with progress that reset upon death does not a roguelike make.
Isaac isn't even an RPG, let alone a grid based, turnbased, simulturn RPG or anything even remotely resembling it.

That doesn't mean Isaac is bad. It just means it isn't a roguelike.
I have no idea why people just refuse to accept that.

>>724934905
'we' started using the traditional roguelike tag, on Steam. But guess what? Now that's getting filled with roguelites, too.
So fuck off with your bullshit complacency. As it is, roguelike, roguelite and traditional roguelike all refer to the exact same genre.
It's not a big ask for words to maintain their meaning outside of the context of people misusing them because they're too lazy and stupid to understand what Rogue actually is like.

>>724935102
Your butthurt is showing, anonymous, do you think I am here to foment disunity against the alliance of true roguelikes? Nobody cares, and that's your problem, especially in the terribly misnamed field of videogame genres. Can you tell me what action-adventure means again?
Life's a bitch, the genre is not popular, and meanings drift all the time. Just insisting on "traditional" means you are still losing ground, same as with "roguelite". If I call Hi Fi Rush a spectacle fighter, then I'll get my point across to people who care, and can quickly dismiss anybody just calling it plain action. You might not have the momentum (and money) to force something new, like LoL made up MOBA just so it wouldn't be called a dota clone, but it's bound to be better than raging on forums. Or maybe you just like to bullshit about your complacency?

>>724930969 (OP)
They are all Roguelike.
Roguelike is defined by having procedurally generated levels, equip and progression at every run, and if you die you start over from the beginning.
That's it, shit like the combat system, 2D vs 3D or level progression is just accessory and entirely irrelevant for belonging to the genre.
On the other hand, Metroidvanias key features include a sprawling map that you unlock bit by bit by backtracking as you get new equip and Dead Cells is definitely not that (hell, Dark Souls is more Metroidvania than Dead Cells).
Meanwhile a Bullet Hell is always intended to be a side scrolling game where you have to pilot your tiny hitbox (often much smaller than the sprite of the actual character) among a deluge of projectiles, and while Enter the Gungeon has some elements of that it has much more in common with TBOI than, say, Tohuho.

>>724930969 (OP)
Shiori anal

>>724933793
Retarded post but cute image, I'll be taking it

>>724939040
The Guardian, my fav char.

>>724938641
Roguelike means a game like Rogue, meaning no permanent player progression is recorded between runs, randomly generated levels and turn-based RPG gameplay.

>>724933727
>crypt of the necrodancer
>not turn based on a uniform grid of tiles
Just because the turns pass on a beat doesn't stop it from being turn based.

>>724932253
What's is funny about nazi, anon?

>>724939837
There's a mod that exclusively reskins The Guardian character in the challenge and it's pretty cool
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3261864839&searchtext=guardian
Wish the whole challenge was a character, would be fun

>>724933846
Water is a rock
check mate retard

>>724931258
>>724931901
She was better as Moe, more unhinged and less bound up in corporate restrictions.

>>724940339
Thanks anon but i'm a consolefag.
>Wish the whole challenge was a character, would be fun
Let it happen EDMUND!!

>>724938641
>Roguelike is defined by having procedurally generated levels, equip and progression at every run, and if you die you start over from the beginning.
No. Roguelikes are grid based, turnbased with simulturns, RPGs. They do have procedurally generated levels and restart you from the beginning upon failure or victory, but that alone does not make a roguelike.
You can't just take that singular aspect and completely ignore the grid based, turnbased with simulturns, RPG aspect of the whole thing and then act as if it's the same genre.

Is Ocarina of Time an FPS? It has a first-person perspective where you can shoot.

>>724930969 (OP)
I buy their games on their political affiliation. Motion Twin is hugely into communism, so I pirate their game.

>>724930969 (OP)
indie devs are physically unable to make a normal game without adding randomized loot and procedurally generated levels

>>724939837
I like how she's essentially a reverse Lilith.

>>724934202
>please bro. Take the L. You dont understand how much I need this win.

>>724930969 (OP)
>>724931258
>>724931901
>>724933772
>>724941023
>>>/vt/ranny

>>724941396
>simulturns
So Rogue is not roguelike. Got it.

>>724931131
Just retards. Ignore them

>>724945040
Rogue does have simulturns, the fuck are you even on about retard?

>>724933727
But roguelike is used to refer to procedual generation.

>>724945435
Actually it's "roguelike elements" and usually refers to procedural gen and permadeath but zoomers, retards and lazy faggots shortened it to roguelike.

>>724945406
Surely you can show me at least one video of your character dying after defeating the enemy?

I genuinely don't get how such a simple genre definition causes so much debate. Is it like rogue? Then it's a roguelike. Is it not like rogue but makes use of elements popularized by rogue? Then it's a roguelite. NetHack is a roguelike, Isaac is a roguelite. The only games that actually blur the line between the two are games like elona and cdda, and as far as I can see most people are fine just calling them roguelikes since they're close enough.

>>724945660
You don't know what simulturns means, got it.

>>724931527
Making tags pointless. Tag abuse should result in your shit getting sunk in the search results. Sage style.

>>724933827
It is though?

>>724945656
and autists screech about it into the wind
completely ineffectual and useless

>>724945798
Almost as useless as you are.

>>724945739
Apparently it means you attack first and enemies attack second. Which is suspiciously similar to being turn based.

>>724945785
Does it really count as an RPG? RPG elements at best I think

>>724945934
Yes, turnbased with simulturns are still turnbased.

>>724945934
It's because simulturn also includes movement in it's simplest form. If you move or attack, your enemies can move or attack.

>>724945696
the one that blurs the lines most is frankly pokemon mystery dungeon because it both has a story mode that would nudge it to the edge of not being a roguelike, but at the same time also has dungeons that start you at lv 1, which are solid true roguelikes

>>724945696
Nobody is debating shit. It's just retards that couldn't agree on a roguelike definition two decades ago seething at normalfags that couldn't care less about those basement dwellers.

>>724931209
based

>>724945696
This is still too complicated for normalfags to grasp.
/v/ is full of them so don't expect proper discussion here as well.

>>724946207
Is chess simulturn?

>>724932253
utterly deranged opinion

Does /v/ still hate Ridiculon? Even after they released a banger like Living in the Light
This is an Isaac thread now btw.

>>724931131
People with very low IQ's think roguelike means "is literally rogue" and not "is like rogue", the "like" is doing the heavy lifting here, it's clearly not fucking rogue just shares SOME elements which makes it LIKE rogue

>>724946739
Yeah. And Isaac isn't even the same fucking genre as Rogue. It is NOT like rogue.
You might as well say that Call of Duty is like Final Fantasy because your profile levels up.

>>724946739
People with even lower IQ pretend any game with procedural generated content and permadeath is a roguelike.

>>724931131
honestly i dont think its even worth arguing with roguelike connoisseurs on which games constitute what, youre always going to get shit for it. its not like it has an impact on the game whatever you call it, we all know its in some vague way a rogue descendant but will disagree beyond that

>>724946739
and TBOI isn't anything like rogue
it's about as much like rogue as fortnite is like starcraft because you build things in third person in both

>not a metroidvania
Well I've never played Dead Cells before but that's a plus, maybe I'll try it.

>>724946452
Chess doesn't distinguish movement from action so no.

>>724946739
It's really telling that you'll concede that the "like" in "roguelike" really just means "barely anything like rogue at all".

>>724930969 (OP)
Sex with Shiori

>>724946739
>is like rogue
which it isn't

>>724941650
Here's the secret reason why: it makes playtesting way more fun. indie game dev is a hobby at the end of the day.

>>724932253
lolwut? Her model has two massive defuffs, she's flat as a board and has the doll joints. She's absolutely carrying her model, not the other way around.

>>724933846
multivitamins are a rock

>>724947779
AI is getting better and better man.

>>724951873
Not AI tho

Why is it so important to Isaac fans to have their non-roguelike, recognized as a roguelike?

>>724934735
It has words and you can find caves to adventure in. Nice try.

>>724952535
It might not be straight slop but you can still tell it was AI assisted. There is just something peculiar about how AI draws hair that becomes evident the more time you spend looking for it. The rendering overall also seems kind of sus. And the gaffette thing is kind of weird, I could understand if it was still wrapped around her neck but why would she keep on biting it after putting it off? The artist is skilled no doubt about it but he might be speeding up his process with AI tools, whether that's good or bad is an entirely different can of worms.

>>724930969 (OP)
Baby making SEX with Shiori~n

>>724930969 (OP)
rougelike can stay the same but rougelite should be changed to isaaclike since thats what everyone is trying to copy the success of anyways

recomend me some rouglike that actually is a rougelike

>>724954446
DCSS, caves of qud, tangledeep.

>>724933727
What a retarded chart. This chart is for "rogueCLONES" not "rogueLIKES".

>>724954993
Feel free to explain the difference.

>>724954993
>rogueLIKE is nothing LIKE Rogue
that wouldnt make any sense

>>724934987
Why do you refuse that Isaac isn't a roguelike when it clearly has elements from Rogue? It's as autistic as saying Duke Nukem 3D isn't a doomlike because it has more verticality, platforming, and exploration elements.

>>724930969 (OP)
Giving your life purpose by giving you semantic hairs to split

>>724955291
Rogueclones can be considered as direct copies of Rogue, differing with visuals, aesthetics, or story, and perhaps slightly different or very few additional gameplay elements.
Roguelikes are just games that derive gameplay elements of Rogue.
Why is this difficult to understand?
>Hello /v/ are there any games out there like Doom?
>PPPFFFF WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN??? IDK FINAL FANTASY 7??? THERES A GUY WITH A GUN IN IT IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN??? STOP BEING SO INTENTIONALLY VAGUE

>>724956135
Except the chart doesn't have visual, aethetics or story steps so it's not for what you call rogueclones.

>>724956519
A clone of a game can have different superficial elements, but it's essentially the same game as you couldn't say its a different game from it besides aforementioned elements.

>>724930969 (OP)
I want to like Shiori but she keeps making it difficult

>>724931131
Why do people think it's autistic to make the distinction here? "Roguelite elements" is a fine term. You can't give those games the roguelike genre because they're already just an existing genre but with rogue elements slapped on. Maybe you might not be aware but there really is a bunch of similar autism turnbased roguelike games with ascii/tileset graphics and I'd hate for them to be lumped in with BOI or whatever.

>>724935913
>bro make up a new term
>actually, fuck you, you're irrelevant
you are deeply unintelligent in a way harmful to your ability to communicate

>>724945854
>n-no u!
great rebuttal, truly your screeching will work one day, and every game will retroactively label itself according to your incredibly autistic standards if you just screech hard and loud enough

Basically, there are two schools of thought when it comes to game genre distiction.
>Game genre is defined by what the game objectively is, based on the core game mechanics
>Game genre is based on the core appeal of the game, why someone would want to play this game in the first place
For the first group, it makes no sense to categorize rougelites and rougelikes as the same genre because they play very differently, whereas the latter group sees them as the same because they both share the core appeal of endless replayability trough random generation and high stakes permadeath consequences. Pretty much every disagreement about game genre is rooted in this difference of perspective.

>>724955424
>blobbers are almost all first person shooters since theyre in first person and characters can shoot spells
>doesnt matter that theyre often turn-based and that reflexes and dexterity dont matter

>>724930969 (OP)
>Roguelike
>I don't like it
huh?? *image of an pepe*

It's funny how the roguelite crowd keeps parasitically latching themselves onto genres. It's also funny watching them bitch about about survivorslop doing the exact same thing to their genre

95% of posts made in this thread are by people with overwhelming debilitating autism

>>724964298
Welcome to /v/

>>724954446
One Way Heroics

>>724955424
Without even digging deeper into it. Does it not occur to you that Isaac and Rogue are completely different genres, while Duke Nukem 3D and and Doom are not?

>>724955424
>when it clearly has elements from Rogue?
Ocarina of Time has "elements from Doom". Is Ocarina of Time a doomlike?

>>724930969 (OP)
built to grow old and happy with her nerissawife

>>724933727
>FTL
>"Do you control a single character from a top down/isometric POV?"
>No
I admit I still wound up with Not A Roguelike, but your crew are a resource, not characters. The character you control is actually your ship.

>>724931131
Alright I'm settling this debate for good with my own modern definitions of terms
>roguelike
Any game that makes use of procedurally generated content and features harsh penalties, frequently permadeath, for death with zero metaprogression. Each playthrough or "run" is a new game and the only difference is the learned experience of the player.
>roguelite
Above with lessened penalties and a metaprogression system. As you play and die, you continuously improve your character and chances to succeed.

>>724967007
Metaprogression is not what makes a roguelite. And I have no idea why this idea has spread.
Taking a roguelite and removing all metaprogression would in no way make it a roguelike.

>>724930969 (OP)
rogue is not relevant in any capacity to modern games and no one cares what fans of legacy fuckancient unixware think
honestly it's more insulting to a modern "roguelike" to be compared to rogue, to be chained at the ankle to this terrible name that carries around this omnipresent curse of autists who think they matter