Thread 725084453

>Nobody owes me anything
>I owe everyone everything

What was Shirou's problem?

Hero grindset

>>725084453 (OP)
SEIGI NO MIKATA

He's not Shiki

>>725084453 (OP)
he was a better man, especially in hf

>>725084453 (OP)
he is a better man

>>725084453 (OP)
Survivor guilt.

It is elaborated upon eventually that when he was a kid and the 4th Holy Grail War resulted in the destruction of part of Fuyuki, he was burning alive together with plenty of other people that he knew from his everyday experience that he couldn't help get out of the fire and eventually collapsing, then Kiritsugu saved his life. He thought that the only way to redeem himself was wasting his life away saving other people just like Kiritsugu did for him, but that wasn't what Kiritsugu wanted at all so he taught Shirou magecraft incorrectly so he would quit. Each time he tried to use magic was painful enough to die and should've made him stop trying, but he continued using magecraft incorrectly because he wanted to save people. Eventually he learns that the rest of survivors from Fuyuki were being used by Kotomine as battery for Gilgamesh, many not even looking human anymore fueling his trauma further because all that time since Kiritsugu saved him he thought they had made it out of the fire too.

>>725084453 (OP)
red man's burden

>>725084453 (OP)
Read nigga read
It explains he has survivors guilt combined with an obsession with how happy Kerry looked when he saved him. These two compound and he both saves others to make up for not being able to save those in the fire and to understand what Kiritsugu felt at the time.
basically he's broken as fuck

>>725085665
>>725087819

>>725085665
>>725090587
UBW made more sense

>>725084453 (OP)
You didn't understand Shirou, reread Fate.
The second Shinji started shit at school Shirou was ready to kill him in a second, not because he was angry or something but simply because you don't start shit on Shirou's watch. Shirou doesn't owe anything to anybody, and he doesn't care about other people one bit. The boy just does what is right, and that's why he's so cool, and Fate route is the best and only canon route.

>>725092136
He wasn't going to kill Shinji, he preached on him. All the times they encountered all he did was preach to him.

>>725084453 (OP)
>>What was Shirou's problem?
PTSD, survivor's guilt, and a savior complex.

>>725084453 (OP)
he's a broken being
really should be more like the cooler him

>>725092243
No, it was explicitly stated in his inner voice that Shirou wasn't bluffing or threatening Shinji, or even having any moral concerns about it, he was gonna kill him (snap his neck, I think) the very next second if Shinji didn't surrender. The scene I'm talking about is when he activates the Blood Fort and Shirou finally catches up to him in the school hallway. As I said, go reread Fate, you're ill-equipped to talk about the game at the moment.

>>725084453 (OP)
Unaddressed mind breaking levels of trauma and a too much willpower to just break under it

>>725090587
I've always hated how Ufotable made this scene about Sakura's virginity and her perceived lack of purity. IMO its a total misinterpretation of the scene. Sakura's virginity never mattered. What mattered here was that Sakura perceived herself as a wicked women who would bring Shirou into self rumination. Sakura knows about Shirou's character. She knows that if he's by her side, it will bring him anguish. And she knows that he would eventually die failing to protect her from forces he could supernatural forces he could never keep up with as a normal human. Deep down, there's also doubt and insecurity in her heart. Because all her life, she's been abandoned and betrayed by everyone: her father, her mother, her sister, her "grandfather", her "brother", Kariya etc.
So she's trying her hardest to push Shirou away because she wants him to be happy and because she also believes that no one truly loves her or cares about her. But Shirou sees through this. And he tells her that he loves her and he chooses her over his own happiness, his own morals, and his own ideals. If the world is against Sakura, then Shirou will be the knight that stands against the world to protect her.
But this is a lie. Because Shirou can't protect her. He's too weak and both Sakura and Shirou know that, hence the music that plays: "This Illusion".
https://youtu.be/tcnmWGyOOPA
In spite of this, the beauty of the moment and the true love behind the sentiment is so great that both ignore the doomed path they're walking upon.

>>725092675
oh my god, no one fucking cares

>>725092675
Nah, she's just being a drama queen. She IS objectively a bad person, and Shirou is fucked either way, due to his worldviews he will never have a happy life. He doesn't have to protect Sakura to end up dead. She just wants to feel good about herself for that moment when Shirou "chooses" her while she "pushes him away". She never truly thinks about Shirou in this scene, she always thinks about herself. It's an ugly, depressing scene showing a truly vile human using our boy Shirou for her mental masturbation.

>>725092873
>Nah, she's just being a drama queen.
She's objectively not. Her father and mother sold her to a psychopathic mage who gangraped her for years with literal worms. The rape and torture was so profound and horrid that her hair color changed, her magus origin (basically her soul) changed, and she lost all of her confidence and self esteem. To add fuel to the fire, Shinji, her step brother, raped and beat her for years. But that isn't all either! Zouken modified her body with worm magic that connected her body with the Holy Grail, forcing her body to act as a gateway to Angra Mainyuu, literally All of the World's Evils.
None of this was Sakura's choice.
She was dealt a unbelievably shitty hand in life. And by the time of the Fifth Holy Grail War, her body is being used grant Angra Mainyuu access to the world, which leads to dozens and sometimes even hundreds of people dying a night. And this through no fault of her own.
To her knowledge, the only way to stop this shadow of Angra Mainyuu would be for her to kill herself. But Sakura doesn't want to die. Which is reasonable.
> he will never have a happy life.
He has a happy ending in every route.
Fate: He meets Artoria in Avalon
UBW: Rin keeps in check and stops him from going to far. If it's the Good End route, then Saber is also there to stop him from going too far
HF: Shirou and Sakura live happily ever after following the end of the HGW.
>She just wants to feel good about herself for that moment when Shirou "chooses" her while she "pushes him away"
Incorrect. She wants Shirou to abandon her because she doesn't want to put him in danger and also doesn't want to put him in a impossible situation where he loves a woman who can only live if hundreds of innocent people die. Her pushing him away is also mixed with her insecurity stemming from her original family who abandoned her combined with the decade of torment she suffered, which has led to her believing she doesn't deserve to be happy

>>725093238
>She was dealt a unbelievably shitty hand in life
the most jarring part of this line is that Rin goes and tells her that she should've made the most of her situation as a magus instead of drowning in her despair, trying to tell Sakura that her own life was also dealt with a shit hand. Rin is seriously a sociopath.

>>725093238
Every Grail War participant has had a shitty life up to that point, but only Sakura (and Shinji, if we count him) is an insufferable bitch about it. She's also the only one who commits mass genocide in Fuyiki.

>>725093334
>the most jarring part of this line is that Rin goes and tells her that she should've made the most of her situation as a magus
No? She literally couldn't. Zouken was literally in her body, eating away at her, gnawing at her sanity and leaving her constantly in a state of pain and deranged pleasure. It also basically functioned as a way for Zouken to control and even remotely kill her....
So no, there was never a path for Sakura to be a mage. Zouken tortured her so thoroughly that she even lost her top tier magus element: Imaginary Element.
>trying to tell Sakura that her own life was also dealt with a shit hand.
BULLSHIT. Even Rin knew this wasn't true if you look at their final fight where Rin showed her mercy.
Rin lost her family and was unknowingly trained by her father's killer.
Sakura lost her family, was tortured so much that her magic AND her physical appearance literally changed, and she was basically gangraped by worms for over a decade. When the Grail War starts, she has her servant stolen, and then she's blessed with the knowledge that if she doesn't kill herself, hundreds of innocent people will die every night.

>>725093429
There's levels of shittiness and Sakura is at the very bottom

>my parents died when i was a kid and i was raised by the person who killed them...but for some reason he raised me normally for the most part and i grew up into the most socially adjusted person in the cast
>i am the only survivor of a horrible fire and have massie psychological issues, but at least i was raised by a loving (if extremely flawed) father
Both of thos have silver linings. Sakura has none

>>725093429
>Every Grail War participant has had a shitty life up to that point
Quite literally no one had it as bad as Sakura.
Shirou lost his family and became mentally ill.
Rin lost her family and was trained by her father's killer (who actually treated her nicely and trained her well btw)
Shinji was a spoiled, rich brat. The extent of his "trauma" was his grandfather ignoring him and calling him a failure. But that kid got to do whatever the FUCK he wanted, which is why he spent years raping Sakura.
Kuzuki is just a fucking ex assassin.
Kotomine is a psychopath cursed to derive joy from other people's suffering; but he still had a fucking great life. He had a wife and a child and he never struggled or suffered any anguish.

How can you compare any of these masters to Sakura? I promise you that not a single one of them would trade their lives for Sakura's one where you'll be abandoned by your family, gangraped by WORMS, raped by your brother on the daily, tortured with magic that gnaws away at your sanity, and the knowledge that if you don't kill yourself, hundreds of innocent people are gonna die every night.
>She's also the only one who commits mass genocide in Fuyiki.
Outright lie btw. She couldn't control the Shadow. The only way she could've stopped it is by killing herself. And when she merged with the shadow, she didn't kill anyone. The closet is in the Femme Fatale Bad End, where Sakura promises to rape Sakura to death with her shadow tentacles. But Sakura has clearly lost her sanity in that bad end...

>>725090587
when people post this I always imagine Indian joker remix starts playing in the background

>>725093802
Souichirou had nothing he liked about his life, didn't stop him from readily accepting Caster and trying to have something wholesome together, for as little time as they had. She just ain't a good person, bro. The whole Mato family is stereotypically, old-fashionably bad. Each member represents various vices a human can fall to which destroy your very soul while poisoning the lives of everyone around you.

>>725093962
>Souichirou had nothing he liked about his life
Was Kuzuki raped for over a decade by literal animals?
Did Kuzuki suffer torture so profound that it changed his body's fucking magical origin?
Did Kuzuki have worms in his body eating away at his mana and his sanity?
Did Kuzuki have a Lich's Phylactery forcefully shoved up there body?
Did Kuzuki have to content with the knowledge that if didn't commit suicide that hundreds, maybe even thousands of innocent people were going to die?
Did Kuzuki hear the love of his life and his sister talking about how they might have to kill him to save the lives of innocent people?
>The whole Mato family is stereotypically, old-fashionably bad.
Except for the worm rape and torture. You're fucking delusional if you think Sakura didn't suffer an unfathomable amount of pain. Pain that would probably make everyone in this thread either kill themselves or go insane.
Sakura would happily trade places with Kuzuki, Shirou, Rin, Shinji, or Kotomine in a heartbeat. They're lives were all fucking Heaven compared to hers.

>>725094192
Damn I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to the mat so hard for Sakura here before, keep up the good fight, buddy.

>>725094192
I'm pretty sure he had his every bone broken in order to do his wobbly fists, he had his will broken in order to become a weapon, blah-blah-blah. he's got you covered on torture porn, rest assured. I must say I find it extremely unfortunate that there are people sympathizing with a character like Sakura, but I admit there's nothing I can do about it but to voice my displeasure.

>>725084453 (OP)
Name ten better men.

>>725094361
Again, still not as bad as Sakura's deal. I'm sorry but she simply suffered more than anyone else, and the narrative agrees with this

>>725094361
>I'm pretty sure he had his every bone broken in order to do his wobbly fists, he had his will broken in order to become a weapon, blah-blah-blah.
I will ask you once again, was Kuzuki thrown gangraped by animals for over a decade? Yes or no?
I'm honestly baffled that you're comparing Kuzuki's assassin training that he could've walked away from (like he eventually did) to Sakura being gangraped by fucking worms that violated every orifice of her body, with some of them even merging with her body so that they could eat away at her mana and her sanity. Sakura can't even walk away from it like Kuzuki can (and did). Zouken's fucking soul is literally sitting in her body via one of his crest worms. Let that sink in. No matter what she does, she'll literally never be able to escape the man who has violated her since she was literal child.

>>725093962
>trying to have something wholesome together

Medea is an evil psycho anon, Kuzuki indulging her and supporting her is no different from Sakura giving in on Angra's influence, the only difference is that Medea is vastly less powerful and dangerous

>>725094409
We have Kotomine (hedonism), Kuzuki (desire to protect) and Kojirou (perfection in one's craft) right in the same VN, all being prime male specimen. Despite the fact it ended up degrading into waifu faggotry, Fate had a great variety of inspiring male characters.

>>725090587
HF if it was good

>sufferingslop

Yeah, no thanks.

>>725094721
Good HF is Shirou making Illya feel loved and accepted for 10+ hours of reading time, then prolonging her life by some magic bullshit indefinitely while all the other thots have fun in London or something.

The comically cartoonish suffering of Sakura, which is a really terrible fate mind you, is made worse when literally every single character of the setting reaffirms their stance of not feeling pity for her or her circumstances simply because those terrible things end up making her the one problem that even the previous villains agree they need to remove from the world because it is just that dangerous. It is so unintentionally funny. I don't know how the plot missed making Angra Manyu her literal corrupted baby after having done it with Shirou, just to add salt to injury.

>>725095051
While I don’t particularly care for the visual novel, I do appreciate the fact that it helped the genre break out of its mold. The fact that people still recommend it to new comers never sat well with me. Anyone new who ends up reading this utsuge not knowing what to expect will quickly be turned off to the entire franchise.

we get it
you love unstable bitches
fuck off

>>725094697
>We have Kotomine (hedonism), Kuzuki (desire to protect) and Kojirou (perfection in one's craft) right in the same VN

What about the rest of the cast?

HF manga Chapter 108

Day 10 - darkwood,sleepingbeauty

>>725095445
I mean, Gil has the same motive as Kirei, extreme egoism, but he's much more cartoonish and therefore boring as a character. Issei is a good boy but that's that. Shinji is just what not to be and how not to act, the character. And we don't have a lot of Kiritsugu in Fate, so there's nothing to be said about his character without referring to fan fiction or newer material, which I refuse to do.

>>725095374
plot aside, I think it did really neat things as a visual novel medium. It wasn't just the plain text an the still images. The effort in the animations is very very high even today. The whole narrative being supported by the tabletop like data sheets is the cherry on top. I never found anything remotely similar to what this VN does to the medium. In my own experience the closer thing was Key's Rewrite and even then it is not really 1:1. Still a good read.

>>725095374
>Anyone new who ends up reading this utsuge not knowing what to expect will quickly be turned off to the entire franchise.
To be fair, FSN is the peak of the franchise.

>>725095876
>It wasn't just the plain text an the still images. The effort in the animations is very very high even today. The
Have you read Tokyo Necro? The visual effects for that one are really cool. Muramasa also has some really cool effects.
https://vndb.org/v13666
https://vndb.org/v2016

>>725095876
>>725095972
Tsukihime, FSN, Mahoyo and TsukiR are pure passion projects

Everything else is just a spinoff