Thread 725311718

Finally someone speaks the truth about action games.

>>725311718 (OP)
Did he discover he has a masochist fetish? I would have thought he'd had enough of being a lolcow by now.

>>725312257
It's weird seeing anonymous posts reciting the bizarre intimate details of people from other sites. Why don't you go confront them there instead of gossiping like a little girl?

>>725312496
save it for the vid, bladder

>>725312578
Too afraid?

>>725311718 (OP)
Yeah its cringe honestly

>>725311718 (OP)
There are different action games. "Action" is like the most vague term you can have.

>>725311718 (OP)
why is his avatar from a game with combos

-

>>725312578
ALright here's a serious response: The main advantage of combostrings is that you can balance a moves powerlevel based on string length. This introduces a timing element. Do I have time to go for a long high-damage string, or am I threatened so I "cash out "early? This is why im not a fan of dodge offset since it removes the timing and replaces it with a simple button-skill. It also allows a wider variety of moves on the limited number of buttons of gamepads without having to resort to meter usage or motion inputs.
Im no opposed to having all moves available from neutral, I quite like it in fact, but saying it is objectively better is false.

>>725311718 (OP)
That's an extremely subjective take

I can see the argument for fighting games, because that means you're often being the one comboed and just sitting there doing nothing. But that's not an issue in PvE. There's a lot of appeal to a cuhrazy stylish combo.

>>725313598
Is he talking about strings?

>>725313104
MH has combos, staggering and knockdowns work the same
really dont know how an action game without combos, no hitstun or knockback would make timing impossible

>>725313810
idk what else he would refer to. Unless an enemy dies in 1 hit then there will be combo potential of some variety. I don't mind that approach either though, shinobi ps2 and hotline miami are fun action games.

>>725313598
you're mostly complaining that strings are too safe and powerful because you can dodge in the middle of them
that's true on paper, but in practice every game with strings and no dodge-offset gives you some super dps efficient and super safe option that renders the strings invalid. UT spam in ninja gaiden or DT distortion in dmc or whatever. at that point why have strings at all?

>>725314154
I mean something like sekiro has multiple moves you can do from neutral but doesn't really have combos or juggles. Given the context of action games and his NG avatar, and that action games often have some in-game terminology/mechanic for a combo counter, I think he means regular combos... probably

>>725311718 (OP)
Action should be about killing the monsters before they kill you, combos and style meters are sesty as fuck

>>725314648
Don't you wanna look cool doing it?

>>725314181
I mean, I agree that it is not often true in pratice. Im of the opinion that UTs should be removed from NG and they would be better games. I used bayonetta as an example because I think it is the most thoughtful use of strings by heavily encouraging wicked weaves, but it is undermined by mastering dodge offset. I will add that I think discovering which strings are usefull in what situation is a fun part of learning an action game even if you end up with a few duds in the moveset.

If I designed an action game i would focus on statechanging attacks being tied to string-enders. Like trips, stuns, launcher, big aoes, etc. In ninja gaiden your launcher being availible from neutral is a problem because of how strong you are in the air with izuna drop. That would be solved if you had to work harder for a launch.

>>725313598
mork please stop being such a dork
the only serious response is "combos are cool". you've totally lost the plot, cause you spend more time arguing with redditors and watching video essays than you do playing games. you're so old and cringe it's embarrassing

he expands more on his perspective after that tweet. he is clearly someone who sees the point of games as overcoming a challenge and he doesn't like when the player has too many ways to obviate the challenge. since enemies are the way most action games create the challenge, situations where the enemies are defanged are bad for him. i think this is very logical, but maybe it's a niche point of view cuz a lot of people play action games for power fantasy reasons rather than to be challenged.

>>725316321
While I do think the claim that action games should not have combos is retarded, I do see his point.

>>725314909
>Im of the opinion that UTs should be removed from NG and they would be better games.
1 would be better without them. i think in the rest you would just fall back on some other OP thing
>I used bayonetta as an example because I think it is the most thoughtful use of strings by heavily encouraging wicked weaves, but it is undermined by mastering dodge offset. I will add that I think discovering which strings are usefull in what situation is a fun part of learning an action game even if you end up with a few duds in the moveset.
the dodge offset helps them avoid duds
the player doesn't know exactly when an enemy is going to attack. maybe if you play for a jillion hours just watching enemies you might get a feeling for their AI, but it's still random most of the time. you can't make decisions about whether you should attempt a 4 second string if you don't know what will happen in 4 seconds. being able to offset it means the move is still useful. a lot of people will still spam PKP in bayonetta because it's still very useful despite doing less damage than PPPKKK
>If I designed an action game i would focus on statechanging attacks being tied to string-enders
i wouldn't have any strings at all. that's a matter of preference though

>>725314492
You can still find combo vids about sekiro though, even if the game wasn't designed around it. If that's what he means then, sure? Since DMC is the only succesfull action franchise currently, I do think it has been over-emphasized recently.

>>725316513
its kind of an inflammatory statement that maybe reaches further than he intends. he would not say that cody shouldn't have his 1 2 3 4 string in final fight. what he would say instead is it's bad that the infinite is in final fight. it's bad for the game. it's bad for the challenge dynamic. final fight is lucky that its enemies are so good that creating the context to do the infinite is somewhat inconsistent/difficult.

>>725316321
I find myself agreeing with the nigger.

>>725313706
Bayo 3 combat is so kino

>>725316571
>1 would be better without them. i think in the rest you would just fall back on some other OP thing
NG2 is clearly balanced around UTOT spam which is (1 reason) why I dislike it compared to 1. But you're right, it would need a fundamental overhaul.
>you can't make decisions about whether you should attempt a 4 second string if you don't know what will happen in 4 seconds
I suppose you're right about this in the case of bayonetta, which is why you would need aoe stuns for this to work.
>i wouldn't have any strings at all. that's a matter of preference though
Yeah, that was the original point. It's two very different styles.

DMC5 being amazing really mindbroke some people huh, absolutely raped and gaped

hi blader
"enemy expression" is word salad. they're AI. they aren't "playing". they don't have anything to express.
they don't exist to stop you from winning. do you know how easy it is to make an enemy that is unbeatable? you can easily shorten their attack tells to nearly nothing, give them insane damage, make them invincible all the time or have 1 frame reactions to anything the player does. the devs don't do stupid shit like that though because the enemies are meant to be killed. different enemies are meant to be killed in different ways. as in, you can izuna drop a ninja but not a van gelf. that's their main purpose, to give the game variety.
ng enemies snipe you out of the air with projectiles or just immediately fuck you when you touch the ground. doing a juggle combo might be relatively safe compared to a grounded string, but it's still worse than GT/OT/UT. the only time you're actually going to get a 9 second combo is when all the other enemies are dead, like in ng2 where you can just corpse juggle an enemy infinitely for 999 hits.
that is shitty gameplay. being able to string moves together into a guaranteed damage sequence is not shitty gameplay. it's significantly more active and thoughtful than being fully invincible chopping up everything onscreen automatically.

>>725317226
he built his whole identity on the premise that the flashing lights on the screen actually meant something and now he's having a melty when he's finding out nobody really cares
many such cases

>>725311718 (OP)
Define combo is he talking about ways to access certain moves in a list like Red Queen or juggling enemies? You can S rank all modes in DMC for example without that side of combo autism just use your tools smartly

>>725316321
I think the problem in that case is that enemies should be able to threaten you in the air, not that combos exist. Complaining that it "stops the enemy from playing" is ridiculous. In a game designed around 1v many you are alwasy going to stomp a single enemy unless you give everything super armor out the ass.

>>725311718 (OP)
Platformers should not have jumping.

>>725317226
>they don't exist to stop you from winning. do you know how easy it is to make an enemy that is unbeatable?

a game that is trivially beatable is a novelty. a game that is unbeatable in the manner you describe is also a novelty, it's just a joke. it's frivolous. it's laughed at and moved on from.

the only games that are accepted are games that are beatable but try to stop you at least a little bit (or maybe a lot bit). this is the only category with any respect.

>>725317226
>"enemy expression" is word salad. they're AI. they aren't "playing". they don't have anything to express.
you can tell this was written by a huge NG fan because they have zero concept of actually interesting videogame enemies

>>725313104
>Posts a weapon with combos
?????

>>725311718 (OP)
>LocalBtnMasher
Checks out

>>725311718 (OP)
Then why is his profile picture Ryu Hyabusa who starred in action games that have combos? What a complete midwit this moron is.

>>725316671
yeah, this feels like he had a brainfart and just said one thing while meaning another even though they are technically connected

Wow, twatter thread.

>>725311718 (OP)
so what would be the alternative? punch once and having to wait before doing anything?

actual retard take.

He should play Wuchang, bosses, break your combs with no tell moves all the time.

>>725318647
He's starting to sound pretty based.

>>725318647
> combos are an extension of the punish phase
Yes? And learning to optimize the damage phase is a fun process. Certainly more complex than hit once and back away. If you don't have combos enemies really should just die in one hit.

>>725317915
>the only games that are accepted are games that are beatable but try to stop you at least a little bit (or maybe a lot bit). this is the only category with any respect.
i described that in the post you're quoting as
>their main purpose, to give the game variety.
having every enemy be trivially beatable would not be variety. trying to stop you from doing x by encouraging you to do y is variety.

>>725311718 (OP)
low to no gaming literacy take, inarticulate

>>725318647
he talks like a guilty gear strive player who heard the word "neutral" once and now believes he's mastered game design
you don't punish the AI. it's leaving itself open on purpose, so you can finish the game. it's not a human being trying to beat you.

>>725318647
Those are combos though, what's the cutoff?

>>725311718 (OP)
Did this guy even complete the NG games, particularly OG NG2, on master ninja, or is he another larper?

>>725318935
Here's your award winning fighting game, bro.

>damage phase
>neutral state
>punish game
>string length
>button-skill
>meter usage
bait has become indistinguishable

>>725319929
>having every enemy be trivially beatable would not be variety. trying to stop you from doing x by encouraging you to do y is variety.
sure. it's an issue if there are dominant strategies that work too well against a majority of enemies. when he is complaining about combos, he's complaining about the fact that air juggling (effectively an infinite combo on an enemy if you have the execution) is too effective in too many action games. he doesn't like that you can guillotine throw so many enemies into pits in ng4. he doesn't like that plain old juggling in ng4 is really quite strong whereas in ng2 IS ninjas are constantly contesting you 100% of the time making all of your decisions idk, a bit more spicy.

>>725320610
what's bait-y about any of these phrases?

>>725320756
it can't tell if anyone is saying this dumb ass shit for real or if people are just making fun of mork. honestly i still can't even tell if mork is being serious

>>725320756
This is the first time he has seen actual gameplay discussion on /v/ rather than everyone just calling eachother retarded indians and he doesn't know what to do with it.

>>725321089
la creatividad

>>725321089
all of these people are serious, you just don't understand what the fuck they're talking about.

>>725321183
"gameplay discussion" aka biggest losers in the world jerking themselves off to big words and flexing their honed ability to type paragraphs and paragraphs of nothing; competing to see just how far man can go in terms of missing the point

>>725321947
post credentials

>>725316321
he's right.
i watched playtroughs of the first 3 devil may cry games, and i could not imagine myself having fun at any point!

>>725311718 (OP)
I hope bladder keeps digging himself deeper into his hole, its fun to watch

He's right.

When I opened up NG4's skill screen for the first time I was worried, but then all the moves revealed themselves to be simple inputs and shared across all weapons.

What happens with combos in action games is you can really only remember 5 of them so the game just becomes that. Think Bayonetta.

That's why the Light/Heavy works so well in DMC1 all the way do Demon's Souls and beyond.

>>725322405
he's right tough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vOvGnDR5B4&t
give me a timestamp here where i am supposed to be having fun

>>725321926
>all of these people are serious
please god let this not be true

>>725320657
why are you putting words in his mouth? he says combos impede enemy expression, and enemies exist to kill you. one is gibberish, and the other is objectively wrong.
playing devil's advocate for an idiot doesn't actually contribute to any discussion ever. you know he's stupid. i know he's stupid. the best response is to simply say he's stupid.

>>725311718 (OP)
Shooter games should not have reloading

>>725322616
dumbdumb. they get close to you and you start juggling them, then they die. enemy expression is about forcing the player around, if the enemy doesnt get time to be bossy with the player its badly designed

>>725311718 (OP)
also no cooldown for attacks (resource use only) because it enforces completely defensive play on hard fights


also lock on removes too much skill, environmental awareness and keeping up with fast enemies.. lock on takes too much away in terms of skill for what it gives

>>725322616
>enemies exist to kill you.
Itagaki said that exact quote. He said in DMC there are no enemies, only targets. In NG enemies exist to kill you

x for light attack y for heavy attack
who invented this shit?
x and y presses are usually almost identical too

>>725322654
helo guy from 2009, buy some bitcoin, you'l thank me later.
reloading is a fine game mechanic for fps games, it punishes bad aim by not just forcing you from spray and pray-ing from conserving ammo in the long run, but conserving your magazine in the short run

>>725322117
bayonetta 1 ic new game PP no checkpoints
dmc3 dmd new game SS no checkpoints
top 8er at FG majors
banged ur mom

add stamina bar people whine about slow combat
make interesting combo strings people complain about difficulty of inputs and that it needs to be simpler
make hard boss fights that you need to figure out how to handle aka waterfowl malenia but people whine again
you fags all do is whine shut up and enjoy some interesting complexity for once

>>725323012
larp

>>725323119
we are all the same person

>>725323182
Yes.

>>725323159
okay i lied about banging ur mom but the other 3 are true

>>725320457
Guy in OP is an attention seeking faggot but Urban Champion is slept on

>>725322770
>they get close to you and you start juggling them, then they die.
if you can kill them instantly without a combo, like by GT beheading, FS beheading, UT, ninpo or whatever else, they don't get to have "enemy expression" either

>>725323720
you are right, enemies need some health, and they need friends that gang up on the player to make it interesting

>>725311718 (OP)
how would that work? every enemy dies in one hit?

>>725318151
>implying the average GS user has the mental capacity to do anything more complicated than hold triangle or cry when holding triangle doesn't work

>>725316321
>>725311718 (OP)
Based Itagaki already talked about this. Combos arent a problem its enemy design.
If the enemy has a shit design, not doing combos isnt going to fix it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oth2ICQ0LMI

>>725324139
why do you think enemies wont have health?

so mario shouldn't gain a 1-up from constant enemy head bouncing?

>>725311718 (OP)
Action games should have combos, but they should be things you discover organically not tied to progression and be stupid 12 button and directional input based sequences to trigger some arbitrary nonsense.

>>725316321
Does this guy not understand the concept of crowd control?

>>725324395
Woooow you're really gonna use that argument huh
You really going to 1-up Man like that with a Mushroom Fallacy

>>725311718 (OP)
He's correct. That's why Megaman had peak boss design before they switched to portable consoles and allowed combos.

>>725324684
There are no combos in Megaman

If combos are so good, then explain this.

Oh. That's what I thought.

By combos does he literally just mean juggling?

>>725324776
zero can do combos

>>725316052
ok casual

>>725324395
No. The koopa that is used for infinite 1-ups is unable to fight back while trapped in his shell; he is unable to threaten Mario. Super Mario Bros. is for bottom feeders and sons of whores.

>>725323938
and at that point combos are just fine

>>725321947
Inclined to agree with this even if I wouldn't word it that way, the standard of games discussion in general is utter shit compared to that of other media and guys like the one in OP's pic or Mork who are for some reason held up as relatively high examples of it exhibit all of its worst traits
when I read stuff in along the lines of what they come out with I just instinctively wonder now how much more time they spend talking or reading about games than playing them

All this guy does is parrot Boghog's talking points.
And all of his points can be summarized as:
>Enemies should be hard
>Games shouldn't have mechanics
>Final Fight is the best game ever and every game should just be like Final Fight

>>725326969
i love when he finally ends up admitting jab jab turn invalidates all of final fight but he says that's okay because it's hard to do (it isn't)

>>725327204
The worst part about them is, there is no game that meets their criteria. Until Boghog makes a beat em up or something his words are just hot air, until Blader can show footage of a game with great enemy expression across the whole roster (and not just 1 enemy type like in NG2) his words are worthless.

>>725311718 (OP)
Is this the next e-celeb we obsess over after Mork?

>>725326494
People who arent knowledgeable about action games want to understand them better, but action games are complex and take time to master. These people want simple answers and lack of doubt, and so here comes Bladder who says everything with utmost confidence, never replies to anyone with actual arguments, only replying to the angry ones so he can make himself look more clever than he really is. He builds a narrative of himself as le action game guru. the clueless dont know better, and are probably his entire following.
Hes kind of a mini demagogue. Since hes going this way, probably because all the people calling him retarded are getting to him, i expect the show to keep getting more entertaining as the rest of the community will find it impossible to ignore the guy posing as an authority figure as he runs around telling everyone who doesnt know better that ng4 fans/CAG fans are all stupid.

>>725327443
Of course not. The guy has no talent and is a charisma vacuum, he got no wisdom or articulated points to share worth listening to. Give it another week until the NG4 threads die down and nobody will remember him. In the meantime, keep making fun of him because that's all those threads are good for.

>>725327443
He's a mork orbiter. Mork will always be the king of /v/

>>725312850
Yeah seriously. Any game that requires any kind of timed action / reaction could be classified as "action".

>>725311718 (OP)
But it's really annoying when enemies just attack right through an attack string, I prefer it when they're stunlocked until a combo finishes.
Unless xir means in a Bushido Blade/Severance kind of way where every singular hit has a combo's worth of power, I can see that. Sometimes I like to just hit buttons though. It's not a big deal.

>>725318647
>implying optimized Ricardo combos don’t involve dash canceling the first two hits to loop into dash cancel upper
Exposed as a midwit yet again

>>725313706
can't see shit

>>725331257
bayo 3 gaming requires you to open your third eye

>>725316321
Funny he says that when NG4 gives the enemies the most agency against an airborne player in the series and it's not close.

>>725311718 (OP)
I agree, my problem with combos is that because the player has access to these combos or long strings and are expected to use them then the HP of enemies has to be really high, otherwise they would just die before you've performed your flashy sequence. This makes pretty much every enemy feel like a sponge that takes way too long to die, or your moves don't feel all that powerful because the damage is spaced out over many moves instead of having a few slow fuck you moves that deal massive damage. I prefer the latter.

>>725331449
i don't think this is ever true in practice. any game i can think of with combos either makes the high hp enemies super armor through everything or gives you some nuke that's much more efficient than comboing

>>725311718 (OP)
does he mean string? like in tekken?
combos can be anything where the opponent can't do shit against it once hit the first time

>>725311718 (OP)
>>725313104
it's not really combos that are the issue, it's combo strings
it feels unimmersive to press one or two buttons and have your character do a long combo string with a dozen attacks
this is why people like souls so much, even though the combat is objectively mediocre. The lack of long strings means the combats feels responsive, one input for one move and you're constantly reacting.
Games like monster hunter and nioh have combos, but the strings are usually short. These games still feel reactive and immersive to play. But lots of other games more in the DMC style or fighting games are a big turnoff for a lot of people, because it feels like your character's actions aren't being directly controlled by you, you're sort of just directing their movements and watching them pull off complex maneuvers. But you're not doing those maneuvers yourself. It feels much more satisfying to do combos with a charge blade or something, because you're still getting one move per input even though the combos themselves are fairly long.

>>725316321
>>725318647
I thought this guy was some kind of lolcow retard but this is actually the most based take I've read about gaming in a while. He's utterly correct

>>725311718 (OP)
Combos suck for a lot of games because devs don't understand how to make combos about choices and not just mashing a button to do one.

>>725331734
He's really talking about combos, entering a string to do a particular move is not the issue.

>>725331610
My thoughts go to the DMC games, DMC 3 in particular since that's one of the few combo oriented action games I've played, it really feels like you're mashing to take down even those scythe wielding enemies at the start.

The whole point of those action games is to do fancy strings and combos and see how crazy you can get once you've mastered them. It sounds like he just wants dark souls but is playing 3d ninja gaiden. The "enemy expression" (nonsense phrase) he wants is given in the form of boss battles in all these games, they all have over the top flashy bosses that fuck you up. Asuras Wrath is the perfect example of why this guy is just saying silly words either as ragebait or because hes too retarded to string attacks together

>>725331449
That's exactly how NG4 feels. These niggers can eat 3 izuna drops before dying, it's just chore. Only metered moves do any noteworthy damage to anything but the lowest HP popcorn mob

>>725332026
combos occur naturally, often unintentionally
by devs, seems like a strange thing to complain about

>>725332057
>>725332224
His thesis, as I read it, is that stunlocking a mob to watch animations in it before it dies is worse than having to play around the threat it would pose otherwise. If it's meant to be neutralized quickly then just give it less HP and let the game continue.

>>725331768
>>725331449
Obviously in Souls you can swing your weapon once and it actually feels meaningful. That's arguably more important to them than the challenge. In my eyes something like Final Fantasy 16 has one of the worst combat systems ever invented.

>>725332026
I think he's using combo as an umbrella term for any long series of attacks done by the player to lock down enemies

I'm going to enjoy DMC4 juggle combos and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

>>725332508
He really cannot comprehend the idea of having fun.
This is the same nonsense that completely disregards that games are a visual medium, NO YOU CANT LIKE COOL ANIMATIONS NO

>>725332053
i haven't specifically played new game in dmc3 in a while but the basic rebellion string brings them to very low health. i'm pretty sure you can learn a little combo into like high time helm breaker that will kill them fast.
then pretty soon you get style upgrades and DT to shit damage very quickly
you have a lot of attacks that do huge chunks of their health if that's how you want to play:
https://pastebin.com/a7Ca1F0c

>>725332532
>In my eyes something like Final Fantasy 16 has one of the worst combat systems ever invented.
ff16 is an easy punching bag, but it is definitely not a combo fest. you do stupid amounts of damage, and you have incredibly abusive ways of stacking dps even on bosses. you have to handicap yourself hard to ever land a combo without killing the enemy right at the start.

>>725332532
the game where 90% of enemies die in a basic attack string?

>>725332783
Not everyone is impressed by flashing lights and dangling keys, games are more than just a visual medium, it's an interactive medium. If the interactions don't feel good then the visuals don't mean much.

>>725316321
>he expands more on his perspective after that tweet. he is clearly someone who sees the point of games as overcoming a challenge and he doesn't like when the player has too many ways to obviate the challenge. since enemies are the way most action games create the challenge, situations where the enemies are defanged are bad for him
this is why you need combos that are hard to execute on, defanging the enemies being a skill reward. As execution and enemies get easier, combos end up too rewarding for too little effort on the player's end.

>>725333283
But it's such an extremely reductive and stupid claim, it's not as if action games with combos don't have threatening enemies, and combos can be balanced via their execution.

3D action games still haven't figured out how to make defense mechanics fun or interesting. So the point of combos is to counteract that and make the game actually fun.

>>725322174
>watched 3 playthroughs
don't worry, I also cannot imagine you having fun at any point

>>725333479
I disagree - NG's guards, Bayo's Dodge Offset, DMC's royal guard and Godhands multi-direction dodges are pretty good.

>>725333479
the best you could do is like sekiro where the enemy makes you play bop-it with your list of defensive options
and sekiro blows. attacking is fun. defense is the boring part inbetween getting to kill things.

>>725320457
I used to play this back in the day damn I haven't seen anyone mention it in ages

>>725333254
NTA but Yea that's the one, but they might get an arrow off or surprise you with a series of attacks that removes most of your HP before they fall down, a lot of them don't wait for you to finish your strings either. If you're getting too buttonhappy you'll just run out of stamina anyways, enemies have plenty of opportunities to attack you.

>>725320114
Ninja Gaiden makes you earn that punish

Devil may cry is your dad pretending you beat him at soccer and rewarding you with a shiny new rattle and binky for being such a good sports boy

>>725319847
do you think capcom could ship an ai that runs on playstation and beats 100% of players? without adding things like input reading

>>725333745
Sekiro's attacks sucks - giant start-up and endlag for dick damage, absolutely not. Guarding is the fun part, because they attack rapidly and don't do arbitrary extendo wait startups without giant punish windows (like the Guardian Ape downslash),

>combos...LE BAD
>I-frames...LE BAD
>hitboxes...LE BAD
>super meters..LE BAD
>No, I don't have any good alternatives to replace these with. Just make games without them OK??
Every midwit trying to lecture you on action and fighting game design

>>725333832
C'mon man. DMC's combo dummy early game enemies aren't any worse than NG's Izuna Drop early game sluts.

>>725333708
god hand's counter hits also count as defense and kingdom hearts block, reflect and i frame management is fun as hell

>>725333452
Sure those games have interactions too but my point is that they don't feel as good to play to me as those other games and there are reasons for that.

>>725320114
Levels are designed by a human being trying to beat you. This is a dumb argument

>>725316321
I bet this guy love eldenring

>>725333893
they will never make games.

>>725333973
>trying to beat you.
they're not trying to beat you. if they wanted you to lose, you would lose.

>>725334001
Who doesn't?

>>725334251
me

>>725334276
What a weirdo

>>725333878
well yeah attacking in sekiro sucks because they don't want you to.
i still found it generally more fun to attack. the game at least lets you cancel a normal attack directly into block, so you can be aggressive that way. the fun part was using the tools and combat arts. too bad that blows through your limited mp at lightspeed, and you can only equip 1 art at a time.

>>725333452
Combos either

A) make your enemy die with a single attack (a series of button presses performed on an enemy that becomes unresponsive after the first button press counts as one attack). Commonly found in game series like devil may cry and bayonetta. Making the game too easy but feeling you thinking that it's only easy because you're a MASTER of action games so your ego is fully inflated.

2) are taken into account in regards to game balance which means attacking takes an unnecessarily long amount of time for no reason. (Can't think of a game that does this off the top of my head)

>>725333479
They do the the problem with making interesting and fun defense mechanics is that the playbase is going to ignore it if they can or get filtered by it.
Now you have to make a mechanics that force people to engage with thats simple and fun. This is how we end up with JUST PARRY games and the majority people love them.
Personally I think clashing in Bunjingai is a cool defense mechanics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPs7JG1pqXc&t=348s

I don't know what he means specifically but I hate action games whose movesets are just long strings of buttons like AABBA, compared to stuff like DMC where buttons are bound to different attacks that you combine on the fly.

>Ninja Gaiden fan has a dogshit opinion
Did we really need another thread for this? Just look for the average NG thread, where they spend more time bitching about other action games instead of actually discussing NG.

>>725316321
Those games exist. Play them. It should not be a universal fucking standard. You can have Ninja Gaiden. You can have Devil May Cry.

>>725311718 (OP)
He is right actually
Combos just disable the enemy and that’s not challenging

>>725334939
I like threads where we can focus on specific aspects of game design, it calms my autism.

Why don't these retards just go back to beat 'em ups?

>>725316052
>didn't mention gameplay density
>didn't go on about IGNs God Hand review
>didn't invent 15 new terms to describe something we already know
>no dodonpachi comparison
That's not mork

A truth nuke for all the "action game experts" out there...a little trukie dookie If you will. People don't actually want action games that are ridiculous rube goldberg machines of mechanical mastery. Its an awful way to design a game. Perfectly balanced mechanics and high difficulty does not equal a fun video game. People arent soulless robots who treat video games like complex problems to be solved. If that was the case you could just use cheats; there, that's the most "optimal" way to beat the game.

>>725334939
>enter ninja gaiden thread
>filled with apparent veterans
>ask them for help on certain sections I'm having trouble with
>crickets
They just post the same few webms and don't play their games

>>725311718 (OP)
damn the more you think about it the more irrefutable it becomes

>>725333479
I actually enjoy the rollslop as they say as well as holding up a shield to actively block incoming projectiles and attacks, as long as there is an element of timing and you have a limited stamina pool to manage your defensive uptime it becomes quite engaging. Some spells and shields in Elden Ring even lets you absorb and reflect spells back at their caster which is pretty neat.

>>725311718 (OP)
yes we know combos are dogshit and forced gameplay more news at 9

>>725333893
I actually own that shirt and look like that

>>725335503
it wouldn't sell very well because it wouldn't be appealing to the lowest common denominator but I think there's plenty of space for high execution games, it'd just be niche.

>>725333763
anon I was referring to FFXVI with that post. Literally every small enemy dies in two seconds and there is very little room for actual combos as you mostly just "take your turn" when unloading shit on enemies while chipping away at them with reflexive play or using counter abilities.

>>725336128
>but I think there's plenty of space for high execution games

One of the most praised action games by hardcore action game fans: Ninja Gaiden 2, is an absolute fucking mess of balance. If you look at it "objectively" like lots of arm chair experts like to do, it's a bad video game. The thing is though, the game is FUN. It's not beloved because it's hard, there's plenty of harder games, it's loved because it's fun. That's what so many people don't get, trying to apply stone cold hard logic to experiences that are ultimately emotionally driven

>>725336415
Oh, well you could have been talking about either game I suppose, my b.

>>725334581
even dmc has enemies who escape combos. not enough of them but they exist.
bayonetta has more. ninja gaiden 4 feels like every enemy can air parry eventually.
combos aren't always a win button. it depends on the specific situation.

>>725311718 (OP)
He's just butthrt NG4 was trash. Made a shitty video ranty about it too. He thought long and hard on why it sucks and drawn the conclusion that needing to do air combos to fight enemies ruin the game
Then mention he wants better enemy designs and think removing combos will make dev focus on better enemy design. This is why he made a stupid ass tweet like "Action games should not have combos".

I just want jedi knight combat but with more weapons and enemies

>>725311718 (OP)
That's just dumb. Even in combo heavy beat-em-ups like SoR4 there's still considerations to be made for combo length and crowd control, how to start combos and space control/spacing. They're just another game mechanic. Doing away with them just means that you're chasing enemies that react the same way whether you use a strong or weak hit.

>>725311718 (OP)
No?

>>725333893
Magnetism is bad as it eliminate the act of spacing and makes positioning less important.
Long combos that lock down enemies and turn them into damage sponges is bad.
Being able to cancel out of any attack to parry, dodge or block is bad because it's too forgiving, it doesn't make you commit to your attacks and combat strategies.
Over-reliance on parrying mechanics is bad because it allows you to ignore spacing completely, being rooted in place pressing the parry button whenever an incoming attack is about to land makes the games feel one-dimensional.

Fight me

>>725316321
>he is clearly someone who sees the point of games as overcoming a challenge
Typical low-IQ behavior of someone who didn't recognize early on that some video games are games, some video games are toys, some video games are interactive experiences, and some video games are blends of multiples of those (like Minecraft which is more like a toy, but then added the "kill the ender dragon" objective later which adds a game element to it).
> i think this is very logical
Logic is meaningless if you work with limited informations and observations

>>725313706
>That's an extremely subjective take
all of the internet "gamedesign" talk is just this, the guy who likes something tries to convince you that it's the only morally correct thing to like and if it's different it's bad
talking about games is fun, but pretending to be a gamedesigner on the internet is kinda retarded

>>725311718 (OP)
Yes. Just give me light attack, and heavy attack, with heavy attack being slower because risk vs reward. Simple as.

>>725338434
3d action games don't have spacing and you are rarely punished for whiffing, this isn't dark souls or monster hunter

>>725320341
Just another larper, he keeps using ninja gaiden as an example, but NG itself has combo potential and stylish mechanics which funny enough pretty easy to find on youtube. Of course, he isn’t aware of that because he’s never actually played the game he praises beyond a trivial clear

>>725339034
Sure they do, even in DMC you often times have to position yourself to hit the stinger or launcer. You don't just get sucked towards the enemy and end up right beside it whenever you press a button, spacing is a big part of what makes the game feel tight.

>>725339280
you obviously need to land your hits, but it's meaningless most of the time, which is why I said they don't have them, action games aren't committal like dark souls, even in NG you can whiff something and then shuriken cancel for safety
the feeling argument is true dou

>>725319847
>If you don't have combos enemies really should just die in one hit.
I often wish more games did that nowadays. I don't think combos and juggling are objectively bad or anything, but I do personally tend to find it wearisome instead of fun if every single enemy can absorb so much damage that some drawn-out attack sequence is needed to defeat them. Playing Shinobi (PS2) after DMC3 was a huge breath of fresh air, since any foe in it can potentially be defeated with a single strike.

>>725339449
you can roll cancel parts of moves in dark souls and you can get caught in animations in ninja gaiden/dmc. it's not that one is ultimate commitment and the other has none.
it's just that dark souls is a game where you do very little. you're supposed to block a lot and you have a dodge roll and some shitty basic attacks. they want the game to be slow and simplistic.

>>725339449
When you play NG4 you should realize how bad magnetism can be, you stop thinking about landing your hits entirely because the moment you press a button you're suddenly standing right next to the enemy and hitting them every time, paired with the fact that you can parry at any time really makes it feel flat. Action games should be more like Souls or Monster Hunter, not less.

>>725339660
when are you going to play it? on the most basic level, you're picking gap closers, aoes, anti-air moves or fast up close moves depending on the situation. this is before getting into specific spacing decisions affected by different attacks, the enemies and the environment.
bamham will auto-track you across the screen and pick an animation seemingly at random because the game is forcing your attacks to hit. ng4 is not that. it relies on spacing just as much as any other game in the series. go ahead and post yakumo moving forward when he attacks, i have clips of ryu in ng2 auto-tracking to enemies too.