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Anonymous No.725398265 [Report] >>725398480 >>725398540 >>725398592 >>725399342 >>725399773 >>725400034 >>725400890 >>725401402 >>725402436 >>725402737 >>725402847 >>725403551 >>725404860 >>725407226 >>725407453 >>725411587
When will videogames be respected as books?
Are videogames inherently inferior?
Anonymous No.725398480 [Report] >>725398641 >>725398727 >>725400678 >>725401225 >>725403397 >>725403540 >>725409230
>>725398265 (OP)
If you are alluding to Dostoevsky’s worst novels, then, indeed, I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigamarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search. Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place." Crime and Punishment’s plot did not seem as incredibly banal in 1866 when the book was written as it does now when noble prostitutes are apt to be received a little cynically by experienced readers. Dostoyevsky never really got over the influence which the European mystery novel and the sentimental novel made upon him. The sentimental influence implied that kind of conflict he liked—placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway. Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels.
Trish Raskolnikov No.725398540 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Poor guy is so fucked up
Anonymous No.725398592 [Report] >>725398678 >>725403294
>>725398265 (OP)
>When will videogames be respected as books?
Hopefully never.
>Are videogames inherently inferior?
Yes. Everything mankind has produced in the last 70+ years as far as art, music, and literature is inferior to what we made before, and that absolutely includes video games.
Stop seeking validation, just enjoy your brainless entertainment for what it is.
Anonymous No.725398641 [Report]
>>725398480
based
t. Russian
Anonymous No.725398678 [Report] >>725400690
>>725398592
So why have we been making art for 70 years? Are we stupid?
Anonymous No.725398727 [Report] >>725398943
>>725398480
you contrarian retards find something wrong with every book he uses kek
Anonymous No.725398754 [Report]
Tooling needs to be better for small team game production to become feasible while maintaining top asset quality, now it's corpo land oriented on making quick bucks.
Anonymous No.725398943 [Report] >>725402524
>>725398727
dostoesvsy is just polarizing. chekhov, nabokov, and harold bloom were all very critical just to name a few
Anonymous No.725399342 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
>Are videogames inherently inferior?
In terms of storytelling, yes. Video games aren't meant to be purely vessels for a story, though. If all you want to do is tell a story, you write a book. E33 leans more into storytelling than most other games, but does it better than most other games that emphasize the storytelling. That's why it's been so well-regarded. It's what movie games should've been.
Anonymous No.725399773 [Report] >>725400069 >>725400106
>>725398265 (OP)
>When will videogames be respected as books?
Who tf respects books? Serious question, I read a lot and there's no one I know IRL that I can talk to about it because no one reads books. At least people play videogames and even at a party you'll find someone that plays videogames.
Anonymous No.725400034 [Report] >>725400878
>>725398265 (OP)
i respect them the same amount: not at all.

it's a skinner box the same way a video game is. you'd have to be a goddamn fool to respect novels. it's just a toy
Anonymous No.725400069 [Report]
>>725399773
hate to break it to you but you only know morons
literature is king
Anonymous No.725400106 [Report]
>>725399773
A bunch of my coworkers do. Two of them even read Melville and Mann.
Not one has ever heard of Pynchon though.
Anonymous No.725400678 [Report]
>>725398480
I don't care what Russians do or don't like. Notes from Underground is a masterful short story. A naive reading of Doestoevsky wouldn't make you think he's particularly religious or sentimental - that's on you for reading a crib notes and not allowing yourself to come to your own conclusion. It's a common problem with books. People will tell you Master and Margherita is a clever critique of communism or something and you can instantly tell they haven't read it for the excellent dialog, with a fantastical story added just to give a reason to continue the dialog. This is why books suck, you're constantly stuck talking to a Wikipedia page instead of a real person who experienced the book from their own perspective.
Anonymous No.725400690 [Report]
>>725398678
Yes.
Anonymous No.725400878 [Report] >>725403061
>>725400034
>you'd have to be a goddamn fool to respect novels. it's just a toy
You’ve never seriously read anything written for adults if you actually think this. Also
>faux lowercaps poster
KYS
Anonymous No.725400890 [Report] >>725401601 >>725403294
>>725398265 (OP)
I like how people only give books written over a century ago as examples. It's like literature is dead or something
Anonymous No.725401225 [Report]
>>725398480
Calm down Nabokov
Anonymous No.725401402 [Report] >>725402148
>>725398265 (OP)
When videogames stop trying to ape other artforms, or at least implement it in a way that does not impede in the one thing videogames exceed at which is interactivity with the medium itself.
Anonymous No.725401601 [Report] >>725401856 >>725408708
>>725400890
It's more that literature has such a huge corpus that there's no reason to read a middling recent release when there's multiple lifetimes of excellent books stretching back to the dawn of history. My oldest author is Aeschylus and most recent is Sprague de Camp. I've read older (Homer) and more recent (Martin, Miller) but there's no reason to read the latter just because they're contemporaries.
Anonymous No.725401856 [Report] >>725402240
>>725401601
I may be a retard by by Martin you surely don't mean george rr martin, right?
Anonymous No.725402116 [Report]
You can talk that about movies too, desu, they're clearly inferior to classical literature/music/art.
Anonymous No.725402148 [Report] >>725402779
>>725401402
Videogames excel in atmosphere and ambiance. They do it better than books, because establishing these in literature is usually done with a fuckload of descriptive exposition, which is terribly boring and book readers will instantly gloss over it and tell you that it's the worst part of the novel. Excellent authors can get around this and it's wonderful, but videogames have the advantage of multimedia (haven't used that term in a while); imagery, sound, haptics, motion, response, etc. You can get the "feel" of a videogame much quicker than in a book, and it leaves much less to the imagination than literature. It's why people talk about the lore of Dark Souls at length even though it doesn't have a "story" in a traditional sense.
Anonymous No.725402240 [Report] >>725402435
>>725401856
I do mean him, yes, but note that I didn't call him one of "my" authors, just that I gave him a shot.
Anonymous No.725402435 [Report]
>>725402240
Makes sense since he was talked about by absolutely everyone. What a (fat) disappointment he turned out to be.
Anonymous No.725402436 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Never and yes.
Anonymous No.725402524 [Report]
>>725398943
based nabokov and bloom. there's a reason dost is more popular among burgers than russians or even continental europeans at large.
Anonymous No.725402737 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Gamers don't even treat their own medium as art.
Anonymous No.725402779 [Report] >>725403053 >>725403502 >>725403571
>>725402148
>Videogames excel in atmosphere and ambiance. They do it better than books, because establishing these in literature is usually done with a fuckload of descriptive exposition, which is terribly boring and book readers will instantly gloss over it and tell you that it's the worst part of the novel.
Wrong.

They rode on and the sun in the east flushed pale streaks of light and then a deeper run of color like blood seeping up in sudden reaches flaring planewise and where the earth drained up into the sky at the edge of creation the top of the sun rose out of nothing like the head of a great red phallus until it cleared the unseen rim and sat squat and pulsing and malevolent behind them. The shadows of the smallest stones lay like pencil lines across the sand and the shapes of the men and their mounts advanced elongate before them like strands of the night from which they’d ridden, like tentacles to bind them to the darkness yet to come.
Anonymous No.725402847 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Most people don't read anymore, but it would be dumb to judge most games by the writing standards of books anyway, you are basically missing out every element of the game that makes it, a game.
Anonymous No.725402962 [Report] >>725403274
>when will collaborative media be as respected as something that can directly be attributed to one person
hopefully after everyone stupid enough to think everything needs to be on par with the entirety of western canon to justify its existence dies out
Anonymous No.725403053 [Report]
>>725402779
penis
Anonymous No.725403061 [Report]
>>725400878
You're mystery meat trash posting on an incel imageboard. I assure you, you are not the high class individual you think you are.
Anonymous No.725403112 [Report] >>725403361 >>725403490
No one’s ever really given a reason why E33 is worse than these classic books. It just seems like they’re automatically considered better because they’re older and more implanted into our culture.
Anonymous No.725403274 [Report]
>>725402962
western canon has been a tragedy, instead of letting you explore works on your own, it manipulated people's critical sense and expectations. It's its fault that today, instead of actually discussing the works, you have people telling you "read a real book." If a book is deep, there's no need for people to jerk off over it and use it to invalidate everything else.
Anonymous No.725403294 [Report] >>725408708
>>725400890
anyone with a minimum of experience reading something that isn't HP quickly realizes that it's a good rule of thump to only read dead authors >>725398592 is right
Anonymous No.725403361 [Report]
>>725403112
Non-meme answer is these classic novels use the personal drama to inform on a larger universal drama for society.
New media doesn't do that much. New media oscillates between total self obsession or extrapolates for a potential future that burns the present to the ground.
Anonymous No.725403397 [Report]
>>725398480
/v/ won't recognize extremely stale pasta
Anonymous No.725403490 [Report] >>725403679 >>725404192 >>725404297 >>725406116
>>725403112
You don't understand the point of great literature. Here's an excerpt from the Nigger of the Narcissus:
>Outside the glare of the steaming forecastle the serene purity of the night enveloped the seamen with its soothing breath, with its tepid breath flowing under the stars that hung countless above the mastheads in a thin cloud of luminous dust. On the town side the blackness of the water was streaked with trails of light which undulated gently on slight ripples, similar to filaments that float rooted to the shore. Rows of other lights stood away in straight lines as if drawn up on parade between towering buildings; but on the other side of the harbour sombre hills arched high their black spines, on which, here and there, the point of a star resembled a spark fallen from the sky. Far off, Byculla way, the electric lamps at the dock gates shone on the end of lofty standards with a glow blinding and frigid like captive ghosts of some evil moons. Scattered all over the dark polish of the roadstead, the ships at anchor floated in perfect stillness under the feeble gleam of their riding-lights, looming up, opaque and bulky, like strange and monumental structures abandoned by men to an everlasting repose.
Does E33 ever use language with the same level of mastery? Of course not, most of the dialogue is simple, naturalistic. Comparing it to literature is stupid, you're better off comparing it to films, as E33 does a great job of using colour, composition, camera angles, great acting etc.
Anonymous No.725403502 [Report]
>>725402779
>fuckload of descriptive exposition
Yup, as expected. And I'm still uncertain what the atmosphere is supposed to be. Dreadful horniess?
Anonymous No.725403540 [Report] >>725403658
>>725398480
Slow down there, little nigger.
Anonymous No.725403551 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
story driven videogames had their peak between 90s and early 10s. The ones considered classic have some respect from the public but that's it. It won't get better
Anonymous No.725403571 [Report]
>>725402779
Have you people read a single novel other than Blood Meridian?
Anonymous No.725403658 [Report]
>>725403540
honestly i'd take madden over ff in any era where both are available
Anonymous No.725403679 [Report] >>725403802 >>725404926
>>725403490
But besides how you say it, shouldn't what you're saying also matter?
Anonymous No.725403802 [Report]
>>725403679
good authors can do one or the other - great authors can do both
Anonymous No.725404192 [Report] >>725408476
>>725403490
>same level of mastery?
it reads like your average YA fantasy novel over-explaining the new city in tedious purple-prose.
Anonymous No.725404297 [Report] >>725404393 >>725404654
>>725403490
conrad is not great. there's a nice parody of his esl ass prose, i'll find it in a minute
Anonymous No.725404393 [Report]
>>725404297
from max beerbohm
>The hut in which slept the white man was on a clearing between the forest and the river. Silence, the silence murmurous and unquiet of a tropical night, brooded over the hut that, baked through by the sun, sweated a vapour beneath the cynical light of the stars. Mahamo lay rigid and watchful at the hut's mouth. In his upturned eyes, and along the polished surface of his lean body black and immobile, the stars were reflected, creating an illusion of themselves who are illusions.
>The roofs of the congested trees, writhing in some kind of agony private and eternal, made tenebrous and shifty silhouettes against the sky, like shapes cut out of black paper by a maniac who pushes them with his thumb this way and that, irritably, on a concave surface of blue steel. Resin oozed unseen from the upper branches to the trunks swathed in creepers that clutched and interlocked with tendrils venomous, frantic and faint. Down below, by force of habit, the lush herbage went through the farce of growth—that farce old and screaming, whose trite end is decomposition.
Anonymous No.725404654 [Report] >>725404749
>>725404297
One source of difficulty and disagreement is, of course, to be found where men have at all times found it, in his beauty. One opens his pages and feels as Helen must have felt when she looked in her glass and realised that, do what she would, she could never in any circumstances pass for a plain woman. So Conrad had been gifted, so he had schooled himself, and such was his obligation to a strange language wooed characteristically for its Latin qualities rather than its Saxon that it seemed impossible for him to make an ugly or insignificant movement of the pen. His mistress, his style, is a little somnolent sometimes in repose. But let somebody speak to her, and then how magnificently she bears down upon us, with what colour, triumph, and majesty! Yet it is arguable that Conrad would have gained both in credit and in popularity if he had written what he had to write without this incessant care for appearances. They block and impede and distract, his critics say, pointing to those famous passages which it is becoming the habit to lift from their context and exhibit among other cut flowers of English prose. He was self-conscious and stiff and ornate, they complain, and the sound of his own voice was dearer to him than the voice of humanity in its anguish. The criticism is familiar, and as difficult to refute as the remarks of deaf people when Figaro is played. They see the orchestra; far off they hear a dismal scrape of sound; their own remarks are interrupted, and, very naturally, they conclude that the ends of life would be better served if instead of scraping Mozart those fifty fiddlers broke stones upon the road.
Anonymous No.725404749 [Report]
>>725404654
That beauty teaches, that beauty is a disciplinarian, how are we to convince them, since her teaching is inseparable from the sound of her voice and to that they are deaf? But read Conrad, not in birthday books but in the bulk, and he must be lost indeed to the meaning of words who does not hear in that rather stiff and sombre music, with its reserve, its pride, its vast and implacable integrity, how it is better to be good than bad, how loyalty is good and honesty and courage, though ostensibly Conrad is concerned merely to show us the beauty of a night at sea. But it is ill work dragging such intimations from their element. Dried in our little saucers, without the magic and mystery of language, they lose their power to excite and goad; they lose the drastic power which is a constant quality of Conrad's prose.
Anonymous No.725404860 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
why do you want people to respect corporate slop?
Anonymous No.725404926 [Report] >>725405306 >>725406763
>>725403679
E33 doesn't say anything new. It's absolutely GOTY but its strength is in the execution, which itself is a result of the visuals, music, and voice acting. It leans on the strengths video games are capable of utilizing. I doubt the game's writers could write a great book, if they even felt so inclined one of them probably would've tried.
Anonymous No.725405306 [Report]
>>725404926
>E33 doesn't say anything new.
Neither did any russian novel
Anonymous No.725406116 [Report] >>725406571
>>725403490
Yeah I think film is the better comparison and E33 stands up quite well compared to even the best of film. Like I watched Pulp Fiction for the first time recently not long after finishing E33 and I was surprised at how amateurish the dialogue and visuals were in comparison, and Pulp Fiction is often considered one of the best movies ever made.
Anonymous No.725406386 [Report]
average game has better writing than average vampire romance slop
Anonymous No.725406571 [Report]
>>725406116
>Pulp Fiction is often considered one of the best movies ever made.
By the masses, maybe. But the masses have never known quality in any medium.
Anonymous No.725406587 [Report] >>725406698 >>725406803
The depth and quality of writing E33 has is very respectable, very few games go out to that length to actually make the dialogue seem human and imperfect.
Anonymous No.725406698 [Report] >>725406803
>>725406587
Yeah. The stuttering, awkward silence, talking over each other. It all feels very human with perfect delivery.
Anonymous No.725406763 [Report] >>725406883 >>725407181 >>725407346
>>725404926
I doubt Dostoyevsky could make a great game, either, because as you pointed out they're completely different mediums with different strengths and approaches. Why is it only ever video games that face these kind of comparisons? You don't see people asking "uhhh is Rubber Soul better than Catch-22? Is 2001 better than The Waste Land?" since those questions are so obviously retarded they're almost incoherent, but when the subject is vidya it suddenly becomes vitally important to argue whether or not YIIK can be part of the Western canon. The only explanation I can think of is that Ebert mindbroke gamers so hard they're in a perpetual one-sided war against his corpse.
Anonymous No.725406803 [Report] >>725407047 >>725407239 >>725407763
>>725406587
>>725406698
the purpose of art is not to imitate human reality. why would you do that when you could get the real thing anywhere?
Anonymous No.725406883 [Report]
>>725406763
catch-22 > rubber soul
2001 > the waste land
Anonymous No.725407047 [Report]
>>725406803
>the purpose of art is not to imitate human reality.
Sure but relatable communication can be useful in helping the player connect to the alien environment and situations. E33 has plenty that is not even attempting to imitate human reality. One of the interesting facets is how humans would navigate such oddities.
Anonymous No.725407181 [Report]
>>725406763
OP here, that's why i made this thread. Of course vidya aren't books. Sure. But somehow you often have dumb comparisons like "you like this game story? ahah go read a book". im dumb but i just can't stand this.
Anonymous No.725407226 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Yes, but you won't live to see a video game as respectful as a book in your lifetime.
The industry have to burn and be rebooted a few times to get to the point where a video game is using as much of it's full potential as a well written book.
Anonymous No.725407239 [Report]
>>725406803
Because inhuman dialogue and writing sounds absolutely terrible. Most vidya acting sounds like nails on a chalkboard also.
Anonymous No.725407346 [Report]
>>725406763
>Why is it only ever video games that face these kind of comparisons?
Because, video games have very few titles that could qualify as good art. Of course there are a ton of shit books sold at super markets but there are hundreds of amazing pieces of written art and thousands upon thousands more that have much to appreciate. Video games don't have that. That's fine, because video games are very rarely TRYING to be art in the way that novels are. They're toys. Sometimes someone tries their hand at making video game art. Usually it sucks. E33 didn't suck, it was good, and we're all pretty glad about that. Vidya's worthiness as art only ever became a discussion because fucking brainlets that have never read a book tried to say video games were art. If you want to look at video games as art, then video games fucking suck. If you want to look at video games as entertainment, then they're great.
Anonymous No.725407453 [Report] >>725407642
>>725398265 (OP)
i dun getin why people want games to be respectable and even be recognized as art, vydia becoming popular only brought loot boxes and shit
Anonymous No.725407642 [Report]
>>725407453
Well that's the thing, art does not have loot boxes
Anonymous No.725407763 [Report]
>>725406803
Well, they don't. The scenery is modeled after surrealist paintings, and the premise itself is ludicrous. But putting characters that feel real, human in this situation hits different.
Anonymous No.725408476 [Report]
>>725404192
I feel like the concept of “purple prose” has been expanded way past the actual meaning to the point it now means “anything past the bare minimum to understand the basic point”
Anonymous No.725408708 [Report]
>>725403294
>>725401601
thanks for proving me right
Anonymous No.725409230 [Report]
>>725398480
>–
Anonymous No.725411587 [Report]
>>725398265 (OP)
Videogames are still pretty young. Decades into the future it will be common for even old people to play vidya. It won't just be seen as toys for young people. At that point the artistic merit of vidya will become more relevant.