Thread 725414640

Find a flaw.

No proper support. I've always liked support jobs. They were always kinda weird. Now they have just been diced up and shoved into those three. In systems that had proper supports there was usually also a little something that let those three reach outside their job a little. Just let you cover your bases a little more or made for some wild party configuration. You just don't see that kind of stuff anymore. Tank is a tank is a tank. Can't reach out to throw in a little healing or lean into more damage. Just shaddup and tank.

>>725414978
tank and healer support the dps?

>>725415071
I know you can just rearrange the words. That doesn't mean there is a proper support job.

>>725415071
Engineer TF2

>>725414640 (OP)
very few people want to play tank and healer compared to dps

With all due respect healer and tank shouldn't exist

>>725415579
He says after standing around in town for three hours, unable to actually do anything in game without someone to keep them alive.

>>725414640 (OP)

it's missing the fourth role, but that's because it can't really be built into the game except by community interaction.
The communicator.
The political feller. In DnD this is the face of the party. In MMO's you can't get this because everything is built in. However, guilds and stuff like that usually have these guys in the upper echelons of the parties. Women are the general meta pick, however antimeta homos hate women and are taken over by femboys and twinks, who are also viable in the meta, so they're the real OP choice.

>>725415510
Very naive perspective and 100% not true.
If I'm actually interested in playing one of these holy trinity games, I'm going to choose healer 100% of the time.
Key words: "If I'm actually interested in playing"
The issue is that games which incorporate the holy trinity are more often than not designed in such a way that it's fucking boring to- or not necessary to- be a healer or tank.
The only MMORPGs that ever did it correctly were Ragnarok Online (pre renewal) and Tera in that healers and tanks were both necessary AND fun.
99.99% of games that include an option for healer and tank can be completed just fine with simply recruiting additional DPS.
Poor game design.

>>725414640 (OP)
Healers are the flaw, the mere existence of this role forces devs to design every combat encounter around them. Every boss needs to deal massive amounts of unavoidable raid-wide damage to give healers something to do instead of just giving the DPS more tools to avoid damage or heal themselves. Healers are the reason why they have to give DPS these pointless convoluted rotations to keep themselves occupied because there is basically fuck-all else to do. They also make pvp fights unfun by being insanely overpowered in team fights and dragging them on forever unless they run out of mana.
Fuck'em

>>725418951
Why is that bad though especially in a multiplayer game? It promotes working together with teamwork instead of just doing everything individually with no thought of your teammates during combat.
Just say "I don't like games that require teamwork"

There is no flaw. Every MMO that tried le heckin no trinity action combat ended up sucking ass.

What about a 4th secondary DPS, or alternatively secondary healer, but does buffs and debuffs?

>>725419243
Roles aren't teamwork, they're jobs that you're forced to do because you picked that class/spec. When you invite a healer to your group you expect him to heal, ress and other healer things. It's not some amazing feat of teamwork you high-five about, either do your job or get lost.

>>725419489
It's literally teamwork.
You don't know the definition of teamwork?

>>725419489
>Do your job as part of the team
>wtf that isn't teamwork

It used to be Tank/Crowd Control/Buff/Debuff/Dps/Healer
Then games got simple and now you've got retards fellating each other to gear scores.
If only there was another metric to judge capable party members other than by how much damage they do.

>>725414640 (OP)
When I first saw these threads being spammed, I thought the point being made was that it's bad that there are ultimately just these three roles in MMOs and there should be greater variety.

I have since learned that the opinion of the "MMO Community" is that these are too many roles and it should just be DPS and universal AoE/rotation slop. The absolute state.

So, I have a question for your modern MMO players. Have you ever heard of cooperative games like Darktide, Vermintide, Deep Rock Galactic, etc etc? I think you'll find that you don't actually like MMORPGs and that these games are what you are actually looking for.

>>725420553
>>725420895
Teamwork requires some conscious effort and coordination to work as a team, for example when the pull goes bad and you have to escape so you rotate all your team's defensive cooldowns with coordinated timing, slowing, taking aggro and whatnot to make sure everyone survives. That's teamwork.
Doing a default tank and spank by performing the actions of your chosen role isn't really teamwork, that's the neutral position where you don't think about your team at all and there is no coordination unless the healer has low mana. Teamwork is best achieved through other means such as raid mechanics and you don't need combat roles for that.

>>725414640 (OP)
Lacks the other roles that used to exist before they dumbed it down for normalfags.

>>725415442
TF2 didn't really follow OP's dichotomy.

>>725422118
Ask yourself this: does those games you mentioned require more cooperation or less cooperation than MMOs? If the answer is more then maybe MMOs should be a bit more like them.

>>725423505
Compared to the modern MMO experience as I have seen it?

Probably more. There isn't so much of this overly complicated boss fights where you have to do homework and study and memorize the boss fight first before you go in, but in the average encounter I would say more, though that may depend a little on the class you're playing and how they're specced.

I feel like MMORPG dungeon running has the potential to have more teamwork than something like Darktide, but that the way that it is currently formulated it does not.

>>725414640 (OP)
The only squeeze balls I've ever had totally ruined scarlet monastery

>>725424278
So you understand where I'm coming from then. People often think that those who want less roles just want to turn MMOs into singleplayer games where it's every man for himself but that's actually the opposite of why I want less roles. With less fixed roles each player gains access to more tools to play with that were previously locked behind one of the three primary roles, more tools equals more potential for cooperation depending on how it's set up. Maybe every player can't just heal themselves to full every time they get low, maybe the incoming damage is so high or the healing so low that you need multiple players to use their heal on the targeted person to save their ass. It's all about how the game is designed and balanced, there's no one size fits all.

>>725425305
Your entire argument is hinged on the three roles being designed poorly with not enough abilities or things for them to do in battle.
So just argue for them to be designed better.
This argument does nothing for or against the roles existing, you god damn midwit.
I fucking hate when midwits think they're offering intelligent arguments, and it's like 99% of posts on 4chan.

>>725426316
You call me a midwit but you don't have any idea on how to fix these issues yourself? Since WoW and FFXIV is considered the gold standard in the trinityslop and they've had 20+ years to refine their formula I can't help but think it's a very hard problem to solve. The reason you have 3 roles is because you split up the responsibility into multiple parts and each of them don't have access to the tools of the others which makes them have less things to do by default. They try to mend this by making healers play whack 'a' mole with healthbars really fast and make the DPS play typeracer with their rotations while simultaneously dodging a bunch of blobs on the floor. There has got to be a better way.

>>725426316
you complain about midwits but your proposed solution is "just uh...like...make it better...stop designing it bad and start designing it good..." lmao

>>725426316
This post is so ironic its crazy

>>725426994
The midwit's argument is "waaah the trinity isn't designed well with enough things for them to do so lets scrap it entirely instead of fixing it"
>>725426881
Dipshit, I never said I'd fix it. I probably could if I sat down for a few hours and really thought about it, but that's not my job. I'm just pointing out how obviously dimwitted your argument is.
Cry more about it lol

>>725426881
>WoW and FFXIV is considered the gold standard in the trinityslop
Thanks for proving you're a midwit, while also proving how little experience in gaming you have.

>>725427240
They aren't? What's the gold standard in the trinityslop genre then if not the most popular games that outsold their competition 1000:1?

>>725427181
>ugh these fucking midwits...i could solve these 20-year old problems with the mmo genre in mere hours using the sheer power of my intellect...b-but i just don't FEEL l-like it, okay?
i hope you're doing a bit because it's a very funny one

>>725415510
Tanks are just boring most of the time and they are occupied either by handless retards, because the role is artifically made broken, or they are occupied by seasoned veteans that just do the job because they sacrifice for their community, or they actually like playing the role
It is a role to park retards on, except on a few encounters, or on harder difficulties.
Healers and some DPS actually take skill in a lot of MMOs. Mabye not all DPS, but there are some DPS that are harder than tanking and healing in general is the hardest of the 3 roles (except you have extremely difficult rotations in combination with boss mechanics).
Tanking is just boring, if you are not a moutbreather, or frustrating because you are stuck on a role that has no real impact, except killing the whole group if you make a mistake.
But most encounters are retard proof for tanks and if they are not, you suffer most of the time, because the role attracts mostly bad players.

>>725414640 (OP)
This. >>725416385
There needs to be a wikifag autismo theorycrafting metafag buildfag making weakauras so anons can play optimally.

>>725427340
by your logic of sales = quality, Mcdonald's is the best quality food.
Thanks for proving your retardation yet again.
What a night for you.

>>725427616
I can't help but noticing that you didn't answer the question, what's this elusive gold standard of the trinity that nobody heard about and what did it do differently?

>>725427773
Do some research, idiot.
Maybe go pick up some supreme quality subway and Mcdonalds while you're thinking about it.

>>725425305
There *are* actually roles within the game, but they aren't generally rigidly defined roles like "tank, healer, dps."

Within the context of an MMO, trying to make everyone a DPS isn't going to turn the game into Darktide, it's going to turn the game into bullshit. It wouldn't work with tab target games at all, you would NEED a robust action combat system and my experience with action combat systems in MMOs is that they are garbage that is killed by latency and server issues that are inherent to MMOs as a genre.

>>725427773
nta but you’re obviously being trolled

>>725427861
Oh I get it, you don't have any. Nothing but Mcdonalds for you
>>725427928
Thanks mr obvious

>>725428008
Giving up already instead of researching it?
I'd expect that kind of laziness from a Mcdonalds slop eater.
When you work out and eat healthy, you'd be amazed at how much more energy you have.
Too bad Mcdonalds is the gold standard you base all your meals off of.

>>725428123
I'm gonna keep replying to see how long you can keep this up

>>725414640 (OP)
Invent a new genre where everyone who plays it doesn't automatically devolve into degenerate DPS. It's becoming clear that for normies 'MMO = edglord DPS one man army'. Call them GTCs (Group Teamwork & Cooperation) instead of RPGs (braindead edglord DPS wants his wish fulfillment unless he tantrums and throws the game for everyone else)

>>725428206
I charge 34 an hour to babysit and entertain midwits.

Everyone but me, the tank, is retarded.

>>725414640 (OP)
>no buffing class
>no hate/threat management class
>no debuffing class
>no pet classes
>doesnt include the 1-2 solo classes every MMO has

>>725414640 (OP)
I think there's space for like an evil healer who lays traps and fights opponents indirectly

>>725427903
I think it would work quite well with a tab-target system as it is a lot simpler than a true action game, think about Ascension WoW for example, a classless version of WoW where you mix and match skills to make your own thing, why wouldn't it work?

>>725414640 (OP)
Needs a "no one is online because it's a dead genre" class. I'm not waiting for non-existent players.

>>725428370
I can't afford that right now, I spent my last dollar buying Mcdonalds

>>725415510
A lot of people want to BE the tank, but the issues are:

>the party/guild/linkshell only needs ONE tank
>most MMO players absolutely refuse to let anyone tank unless they're already in the most pimped out gear possible
>a solid majority of tank players are actually fucking stupid and have no idea what they're doing which leaves people not wanting to invite most of them or not wanting to level them

>>725414640 (OP)
As shitty as League is I think it did the tank role pretty well, you're generally stronger than other characters early game and later on have the most freedom to do things in team combats

>>725414640 (OP)
Tank and healer roles are reterded, everyone should contribute dps, damage recieved should be based on ones own ability, not mass unavoidable aoe damage to give healers something to do

>>725414978
GW1 had mesmers but the unwashed masses were too stupid and we went back colorful big dmg sloppa again.

>>725415510
Many people are dedicated healers, way less tanks, and a role that’s dedicated to being hit and holding aggro also being always weakest link is fucking retarded anyways

>>725414640 (OP)
all three are just standing still and moving 5 feet over to the next Simon Says square as 1 button press spams abilities for 30 minutes.

even though I dont like Elden Ring Nightreign, at least it tries to find an active role for different builds. Everyone capable for doing a portion of the other persons role.

The trinity is flawed because they don't have the Warcraft 3 interaction to fix the faults in order to balance range.
Blunt / Slash / Pierce
Light / Medium / Heavy
>>725429091
close but not truly the way to balance it.
Classes also need to be split better.
Warrior = armor, Barbarian (bruiser) = health.
Ranger = range, Rogue = cqc.
Mage = dmg, Priest = heal.

On that level you can have a decent balance and fix abilities to give different styles advantages over another classes strength for balance.
The ultimate game changer is charisma + debuffing + elemental conditions. Morale & Sanity = stamina and energy bonuses and debuffs. Elemental weakness for complexity in abilities and debuffs that last entire fights and create disabilities the more they are left untreated should matter.

>>725429349
aggro management should offer advantages to tanks who juggle agro for flank attacks. if you are melee it makes no fucking sense physically wailing on someones back isn't giving you a huge advantage.

>>725414640 (OP)
Tanking sucks
Healing sucks
DPS are clowns
Nothing is ever balanced

Thief. but with snooping/wrestling/anatomy instead of lockpicking/evalint/detect hidden

>>725414640 (OP)
They solved it: Potions.
>tanking time. *sips damage reduction*
>oh look. damage time. *sips attack increase potion*
>ouch. that hurts. *sips healing potion*

>>725429548
The only roles in Nightreign are melee, ranged and useless bird.

>>725429686
>looks in inventory
>potions
>looks in bank
>potions
>loot an enemy
>potion

>>725414640 (OP)
very outdated. modern design is to make everything dps.

>>725429704
youre right, there is one for fat bald men to eat a full meal while "playing"

>>725414640 (OP)
Yes, one of them has to suck dick in this three way
guess which one that normally is

>>725430667
The tank always gets rammed by the boss so it might be him but he's insecure about it.

Man I just had a great idea, what if instead of fighting the enemies the tank has to suck and jerk them off while the dps penetrates their assholes? The MMO genre is saved

>>725430838
that's what a good healer is there for: emotional support
>>725431118
damn, stuck in the cuck chair again