Thread 725604914

>all gameplay suggestions people always mention in regards to turn based RPGs are about avoiding gameplay, like oveworld encounters instead of random ones, or timed inputs like mario & luigi or E33
Is innovation in the RPG scene dead? Are turn based RPGs doomed to have FLAT gameplay forever?

bed-shattering sex with Etna

>>725604914 (OP)
Neither of those are about avoiding gameplay.

>>725606004
overworld encounters can be avoided, and they usually say "earthbound let you instant kill them on the map" which is another admission that they think playing the game is a chore

just started playing disgaea 4
made a spirit and liking it
also made a slime because I like tanky minions but this one seems to fucking suck
is its only purpose to magichange?
also can I learn new skills by using them being near another teammate?

>>725606183
>overworld encounters can be avoided
Which will lead to getting assraped by mandatory battles, which will force the player to grind anyway.

>>725604914 (OP)
>timed inputs like mario & luigi or E33
taking forced damage isn't an expression of skill or tactfulness
being able to dodge/parry to avoid damage is
might as well just make walking around automatically drain your health and mana since thats what random battles boil down to

>>725606745
if you get a skill to level 1 the character keeps it forever, i think.

>>725606903
>tanking forced damage isnt an expression of skill or tactfulness

it can be though, or rather tanking damage for an opportunity. spending limited resources from a checkpoint before getting to a boss/miniboss

this is a gripe i have with turn based games though, is many of them will just let you stack infinity consumable items like healing specifically, as opposed to giving you either a renewable resource that you have to play for, or making it an actually limiting factor and makes you plan encounters to a boss

>>725604914 (OP)
any SRPG or addition of spatial considerations makes gameplay more interesting. turn based combat on a grid makes things less flat inherently, but spatial considerations don't have to JUST be on a grid. some FF games have rows, or you can have height considerations where only ranged characters can hit flying enemies and such
bravely default did a great job of adding extra dimensionality by allowing you to store/borrow actions for/from future turns. another system that adds extra dimensionality to turns (albeit in a much blander, flatter way) is the press turn system from some SMT games. to a lesser degree, the system in FFX is similar in that it allows the player to see the turn order and choose actions that will allow them to take more actions than the enemy. ways of maximizing or altering the standard flow of turns/actions can really add to the strategy and how much a player can think about a battle
loads of deck builder games have made things a little more interesting by adding variability/randomness. in a standard 4-niggas-in-a-row game, you generally have a set of actions that you will perform in pretty much every random/mook encounter and only really change things up during boss encounters. by having some randomness/unreliability in the actions you can take, the player is forced to make new considerations when approaching any given encounter
a lot of the fun in RPGs comes from how you build your characters. many RPGs don't give you many options (especially early on) to actually develop interesting strategies with your party, most parties are prebuilt by the devs and you the player are expected to play the party decided on by the devs, even to the point that it can take tens of hours before you start to see any opening up of character/party building and actually having any choices to be made about equipment or abilities

there are many things developers COULD do to innovate the formula. most won't because it is too risky or they are too uncreative

>>725606803
so it's equivalent to Encounters Off?

>>725606903
>taking forced damage isn't an expression of skill
One of the most profoundly retarded statements I've ever read on /v/, congratulations, take your (You) and never reproduce

>>725604914 (OP)
>thought provoking on-topic post
>lust provoking image
hey, you can't do that!

>>725606745
you can probably make your slime a tank by doing some chara world shenanigans to increase your elemental resistances and getting the right innocents on your equipment
But it's way easier to just create a dodgetank Kunoichi with Wind Wrap or Catsaber with Trick Move and call it a day

Eating Etna's pudding!

>>725607265
i made this post, waited for a response, and am only now realizing OP just wanted to talk about etna's flat chest. i feel like a fool.

>>725607265
>>725609153
I actually agree, but 4 niggas in a row is for some reason still the most popular format for RPGs (tradition maybe?)
The big push to real time fell flat on it's face, and things like disgaea or ff tactics for more movement involved gameplay remain niche, with the only exception being fire emblem (which isn't doing that hot post-three houses)

>>725604914 (OP)
Yakuza 7 & 8 had a positioning and environment element to the combat that made them really fun to play (especially 8), in terms of traditional turn based JRPG combat.

>>725606903
>taking forced damage isn't an expression of skill or tactfulness
????? do you think giving up pieces in chess is not an expression of skill

>>725604914 (OP)
>overworld encounters, timed inputs
These are suggestions made by normalfags who never liked JRPGs and can safely be ignored. The real issues with JRPGs are repetition and lack of customization.

For example if you took any Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, increased the encounter rate by x4 and reduced EXP gain to 25%, everyone would call them shitty grindy games. Likewise, a lot of JRPGs could be improved by reducing the encounter rate and increasing EXP gain to make them less repetitive. This isn't the 90's anymore when long-ass games were a selling point, nowadays people have too much shit vying for their attention and the lack of excessive padding is appreciated by everybody.

The other big one is lack of variety, options, or personalization, since if the combat itself isn't engaging the game has already failed. Is your party composed of preset story characters with preset stats, skills, etc or it composed of a custom mix of characters with stats and skills chosen and allocated by you? Is the skill selection meaningful and varied, or just damage / more damage / lots of damage? Etc. Enemy encounters are important too--they need to be varied enough to meaningfully change the way you approach them. If you can bulldoze every encounter with the same skills / gameplan, the game has failed.

While technically not a JRPG series, Etrian Odyssey has my favorite turn-based combat out of anything I've played. The party customization is deep, the enemy encounters are varied, and the level progression is quick enough to hold my interest for 60+ hours each game, which is a feat.

>>725609153
If it's any consolation, when I make shitty threads disguised as real threads, I sincerely respond to any posts that thought they were in a real thread.

>>725609153
We can do both.

>>725607701
oh no artists bros...
https://litter.catbox.moe/elww7x0d2d3cj77j.jpg
https://litter.catbox.moe/yol4ccisejxil1aj.jpg
https://litter.catbox.moe/7z5nfwcac1m0mlos.jpg
https://litter.catbox.moe/zan4z4vck19c53ky.jpg
https://litter.catbox.moe/2jsv5creuk1pwjc3.jpg

>>25605136
This DESU

>>725604914 (OP)
>Is innovation dead!?

people innovated on turnbased combat with deckbuilder mechanics
>2 sec later /v/ screeches about it

E33 innovates on turnbased combat with QTE dodge mechanics
>2 sec later /v/ screeches about it

Xcom innovated on turn-based/tactics gameplay
>2 sec later /v/ screeches about it

Divinity OS 1-2 innovated on turn-based/tactics gameplay
>2 sec later /v/ screeches about it

>>725604914 (OP)
E33 had a conditions system that was pretty cool that I feel like no body mentions. Not sure of other games with anything similar off the top of my head

>>725610162
>hekaton
>hakton
>hekatoon
>heation
>heatakon
>ehakato
>heakaton
Who are all these artists and why is their style so similar?

>>725610678
>E33 innovates on turnbased combat with QTE dodge mechanics
uh

>>725610678
>E33 innovates on turnbased combat with QTE dodge mechanics
Mario did that.
>>725610841
Super Mario RPG, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, Paper Mario and their sequels.

>>725604914 (OP)
>dodging and parrying in e33
imagine actually giving the enemy a chance to attack

>>725609350
yeah, but things can be done to the 4 niggas formula to add extra dimensionality. more games should take lessons from the brave/default system, as it truly is the most interesting 4-niggas combat system i have ever played. it was the first major innovation i had seen in years and years, and now it has been over a decade since without any real innovation or even attempts at mimicking it.

>>725610162
what in the slop

>>725609602
Personally, when I make a strategy around a particular mechanic (for example, status conditions) and then a boss rolls around and invalidates it, asking that I play in a very specific way to beat it, I just get upset

>>725607105
There used to be this thing called limited inventory where you can only carry a limited selection of items. This also includes equipment. Dragon Quest still limits what items to use in battle based on inventory slots despite having a bag for unlimited items.

>>725610162
die slop nigger

>>725606745
most basic minions in Disgaea games suck, you will replace him later

So, Etna is gonna cameo in the mouso, right?

>>725615386
die a violent death, unflattenner

>>725604914 (OP)
Sex with etna

>>725614496
If the game doesn't let you win every battle with the exact same strategy, it's a good thing.

>>725606183
Only if you'd OHKO them with a normal attack from Ness anyways
Most dungeons are too narrow to avoid encounters unelss you're a boring fag that's gonna keep walking in and out of the room until less fights spawn

>>725614496
I find it a little boring if I never have to go back to the drawing board and readjust my approach.

>>725604914 (OP)
Action commands are in their barest barest BAREST infancy. People make fun of traditional mechanics conceptually being Simon Says but clap their feet at actual Simon Says. The most the mechanic has evolved is fakeouts (making it resemble Simon Says even more). No one wants to push it forward because people who like the mechanic don't like the genre and people who like the genre don't like the mechanic.

>>725616289
>>725617381
There's a difference between that and the
>bosses are immune to literally everything that isn't direct damage
shit that many JRPGs do

>>725615386
They'll hate you for showing the truth but history will remind them.

>>725618595
I HATE LOCALIZERS I HATE LOCALIZERS I HATE LOCALIZERS

>>725618741
It's a good bit thoughbeit

>>725618741
the whole game is a big joke on politics you fucking tertiary

reminder that etna is up for voting in queen of /v/, and her opponent in this round is furshit
>>725617373

>>725606183
using earthbound in gameplay arguments is also laughable.
the game legit plays like shit for an SNES rpg.

>>725604914 (OP)
Games are advanced enough to have overworld encounters not need to be instanced. The last two Star Ocean games are perfect examples for how to make it work.

>>725619410
Nice >>725617951
what the fuck do you mean "what was /v/'s 1 million GET" what is this ED trivia ass bullshit

>>725619926
>he doesn't know it was PONG
for shame, anon

jarpigs != rpgs
Now you can remove your worthless thread.

jarpigs == rpgs
good thread

>>725620041
Thanks

>>725604914 (OP)
Dunno what people have against randoms encounters, you need those to give players safe sandboxes to test their strats in, while ading grinding as a tool to allow less experienced players to powerlevel their way through hard bosses, and maybe even not do that by finding a new strat through the grind
Random Encounters are fundamental to RPGs as a whole.

>>725615386
big titty Etna is so kino

>>725620601
Random encounters are not necessary for any of that though.

>>725604914 (OP)
People want to play RPG's without any of the effort of doing so. To claim being a fan while hating every aspect of it because it's popular.

>>725622303
someone wrote that above the urinal in the employee washroom where i work and then management had a melty about it.

>>725608196
>>725615386
Maybe I should vote for Etna

>>725622303
you call those breasts?

>>725604914 (OP)
Tranny thread.

Disgaea? More like 'Dis gae y'all

>>725612965
B/D system is just banking your turns until enemy is weak and then unloading. Riveting stuff. At least in something like press turn you have to react on turn by turn basis

>>725617507
most JRPGs do in fact not do that.
especially FF, which ironically gets brought up as the prime example of it.

>>725622757
>B/D system is just banking your turns until enemy is weak and then unloading.
there are some moves that require BP to use. it isn't always so obvious with the bosses what the best bet is when it comes to braving or defaulting. especially when it comes to your healer, your healer can easily go into negative BP and be spent for a few turns. it is also a starting point, devs could take something like B/D system and add BP absorbing abilities, BP freezing abilities that stop you from storing them, or bonuses/penalties based on how many actions you take in a turn. it is the most innovative change to 4-niggas combat that there has been in decades. it isn't perfect, but it is a much better blueprint for how things could be than pretty much anything else out there.
>At least in something like press turn you have to react on turn by turn basis
press turn is gay because you never have to really think about your strategy. the best option is to always go for the press turn to get an additional action.

>>725610678
literally none of that is new.
the issue with the most vocal RPG critics is that they dont even like and play the genre.

>>725610678
None of the losted games inovated in anything unless you think 15 years old and more is modern

>>725622303
Yes.
And I'm going to fuck you with it solely for my pleasure.

jumbo etna

Most "muh innovation" talk comes from people who actively hate the genre and want to turn it into something entirely else.
You see it with RTS and fighting games too and its always a disaster when some corpo suits listen to them.

Combat affecting the story is really the only way to go, it's the one element people actually care about outside pressing buttons

>>725626521
her chest is like a vast flat plane

How long is disgaea infinite?

>>725615386
now I will play your game

>>725609153
Well I read it and found it insightful

Grandia 2 still has my favorite turn-based gameplay. Movement in the battlefield, cancelling (and being cancelled) moves, turn comes up right as the enemy attacks so you can then block, spells that need positioning to target everything, and bosses with multiple targetable body parts, having independent turns so it poses some challenge, and some parts are annoying that need to be destroyed quickly (or not if you can handle it and just rush the main body).
If only it had more stuff, like more side stories, dungeons. It's incredibly linear story-wise.


Also sex with Tio

>>725618595
I'm a centitst

>>725629076
thank you for your time.

>muh combat
You are focusing on the most tedious and boring part of the RPG.

>>725633694
combat is the main gameplay in 4-niggas games though. otherwise, you would just be reading a VN. he's focusing on it because it needs revamping, not because people should just ignore it.

>>725604914 (OP)
Baldur's Gate 3 already showed you what the next evolution of turn based RPGs is. Now we just need some good Japanese dev to take the system and improve on it

don't be fooled, the next real project id Disgaea Kart, not the mouso, not D8

>>725604914 (OP)
All of the games from this company are too tedious to play every turn has too many confirms inputs etc if they can't even get the controls right you can extrapolate how bad it gets from there. A single turn in Disgaya is somehow longer than a single turn in the old Fire Emblem before the retarded colgate haired VN for secondaries era. The formula seems made for mouse or touch controls to smooth the input process over. Unlosing Ranger was the only ok game. It's not about turn based it's that the games are poorly crafted and betray the quality character art.