Thread 57921727

Was evasion ever actually good? Why does Smogon hate it so much when Protect exists? Compared to that move, double team and minimize is a wasted slot. I legit never saw the point of that move competitively.

It was broken in early gens when the power level was much lower, easier to fit on movesets and harder to work around. It's complete garbage in SV, I just don't think Smogon cares to waste time revisiting something that doesn't really benefit the game much. Also showdown's timer system arguably makes evasion stalling stronger than it actually is.

it's more or less a luck based strategy which is why a lot of people deem it uncompetitive in nature

It's probably a conflict of interest. My first guess is that the real target was OHKO moves which are designed to hard counter evasion since Gen 3. The logic is that is they ban both, no one would make a case as to why OHKO moves should come back. Something like Smogon greatly worships numbers and statistics so it makes sense that they are mechanics designed to defy the odds.

>>57921753
>are
>axe

>>57921727 (OP)
It's not fun. That's why we play without it. If you don't like the way we play, then don't play our formats. Not seeing the issue here.

>>57921727 (OP)
smogon has formats where evasion is allowed
also gen 1 minimize chansey is fucking aids, nobody wanted to deal with that and whenever someone tried to use one in playground fights you can bet they were getting their ass kicked and their gameboy stolen.

>>57921759
Maou-kun, I was asking because it's mostly useless, not because I ever liked it. Nowadays you can be set up and swept by a ton of sweepmons in singles, and you may as well be using splash if you think about using it in doubles.

>>57921727 (OP)
It's good enough to allow you to luckshit your way to a couple victories, but not so good you can do it consistently. People that have tried running evasion based teams in official competitive tournaments never make it to the finals since the rng isn't going to be on their side often enough, but the teams that DO lose against them just do so due to pure coinflip rng, and that always suck.
So banning it is pretty fair.

>>57921727 (OP)
Smogonfags don't like Pokemon. They just want to make their own worse game while riding its coattails.

>>57921822
Well they should make their own game, and if their ideas aren't shit and doesn't infringe on copyright then they can make bank instead of being the laughing stock of a children's franchise.

Increasing your evasion with double team is complete horseshit. Sand Veil's problem was being on fucking Garchomp.
>"But it was banned in gen 3"
After like <5 people lost to it once out of like 200 games, then got butthurt about Gligar and Cacturne of all things.

Things should be banned because they are outright overpowered or have a complete stranglehold on the metagame with the damage calculations, usage statistics, and consistent tournament performance to back up those claims, not because they are unfun to play against.

>>57921727 (OP)
In battle facilities

>>57922276
And free Frosslass. Bitch wasn't doing shit even with snow cloak. Imagine complaining about >>>hail rng when also voting not to commit to tiering action on iron head jirachi.

>>57921727 (OP)
>omgon loves stall
>wtf why doesn't omgon let me evasion stall
/vp/ is so retarded

>>57922299
Dispelling your demons now, so you can say more meaningful things!

Anyways the consensus seems to be that stall is fine, but if are multiple routes for stall it makes things very convoluted as to which avenue is efficient enough to get you anywhere in competitive play. Removing volatile one mechanic from the equation makes it much easier to find an answer each season.

>>57921771
It's not useless. Objectively it just gives you 33% or whatever passive chance to just skip oppos attacks.

I see a lot of people talking about how they would make a format but not anyone here showing anything as successful as smogons.... Mmmm problem? U mad? Trolololol

>>57922543
And objectively it gives up your action for that chance that typically takes a while to go in your favor. And what's the counter for it? Getting hit, lol. It's only when Moody is in the mix when evasion buffs become legit scary imo.

>>57922546
Name one person ITT talking about making their own Pokémon format. The state of your eyes concerns me.

Also, doesn't Toxic have 101 accuracy now when a poison Pokémon uses it?

>>57922642
Saying their rules/format is shit is basically saying you could do it better. If you think you're the one with the better idea for a format then go make one

>>57922633
Do you really not see how insanely cancerous and stally it would be for ANY pokemon with sustain? Are you stupid?

>>57921727 (OP)
>Was evasion ever actually good?
Of course it was good. There were Battle Factory sets like this one Meganium which were premised on evasion "abuse". The real question is if it was "broken", which I don't think it was, since there are real opportunity costs and you still have to get lucky as the user.

Smogtists just hate the fact the game they play is a luckfest and try to do everything in their power to shave off aspects of the game that upset their autistic need for predictability and monotony.

>>57922955
>Saying their rules/format is shit is basically saying you could do it better.
yep
>If you think you're the one with the better idea for a format then go make one
right after I make a new third party for American politics
dimwit; doesn't work like that

>>57922986
No. Are you? Sure seems so, defaulting to Smegmon talking points like this.

>>57922276
this, but put quote marks around "unfun"---cuz, says who?

>>57921822
evergreen truthbomb

>>57922986
It's cancerous but not unbeatable. The hard counter to this is gambling with OHKO moves as the trade-off for having shit accuracy is being exempt from acc/eva check. And of course the soft counter is the small array of nevermiss moves. Evasion really does make a mon with leftovers insane, but there are many solutions like switcharoo'ing a Toxic orb and shit.

You can make an argument that a move like Protect is cancerous as it means you can protect the glass cannon sweeper on a turn you need to, with no penalty for having garbage defensive stats. Trick Room is cancerous because now stallmons gain speed priority.

>>57923021
Says the thousands of people who agree with and play showdown every day

>>57923016
>You can't use arguments that were proven to be valid against me!
seethe manchild

>>57923051
Protect and Trick Room are known, controlled tools that don’t inherently generate variance. Their outcomes are predictable and can be played around through strategy.
Evasion stacking is not comparable, it creates probability-based chaos that scales harder and harder with each turn, forcing the game into a pure luck fest.
>bububuhubuh then just force mons to run a bunch of 60bp nevermiss moves and use switcharoo an-
I would rather just play without evasion than have to cripple my sets and teambuilding creativity with situational earlygame shitmon moves like swift and foresight or whatever.
Also tell me how hard aerial ace and swift are hitting DT skarmory in gen 3, i'll wait

You guys bitch about Focus Blast missing, and then have to gall to pretend evasion isn't cancer?

>>57923839
That's the fucking other thing.
I'll say, I'm sure this flavor of cancer is less good in Gen 9 but I only play Gen 3 so that's what the fuck I'm talking about.
Toxic, Will o Wisp, Rock Slide, HPump, Fire Blast, Sky Uppercut/HJK, Megahorn, Mash - all these moves are already less than 100 acc. With even one evasion stack they get that much missable and worse.

>>57921727 (OP)
>Was evasion ever actually good?
no
you get better value boosting defense in almost every case

it's anti-competetive. that's why it's banned. has nothing to do with ovepoweredness. you can go dig into the 2010s smogon forum archives if you really fucking care about their long and historied ban philosophy and view on uncompetetive mechanics. but i know no one here really plays you just want to get +2's from your fellow shitposters about someone you guys have already deemed completely and cartoonishly evil

>>57923193
the thousands of people play *smogon university's server because there is no alternative

>>57923822
>manchild
projecting smogtist

>>57923843
100% acc alternatives exist, and ones that don't are for reason

>>57923882
"2 More Weeks"---Trump, 6/19/25

>>57923938
>you can't run those attacks, use the 100acc version!
>you can't run utility moves, you have to use switcharoo and aerial ace!
wow I sure am glad evasion is banned, that sounds really boring

>Aura Sphere
>Sacred Sword
>weather specific moves
>signature moves
That's it for shit bypassing accuracy.

Double and Minimize turn games into dice rolls.

>>57921727 (OP)
why couldn't cytnhia evade this