Thread 57978827

Why is Johto so full of poor design decisions?

>>57978827 (OP)
>No fire stone until kanto postgame
Just grind at poke-olympics bro

>>57978827 (OP)
GSC was a cashgrab rushed to try to make as much money as fast as possible
problem is there wasn't enough content developed because of this, so much of the game ended up being designed around padding such as that to artifically inflate playtime

i wonder if gamefreak was expecting kanto to be more substantial than it ended up in the final game
maybe they believed the meme about kanto being half the game

Pokémon was full of poor design decisions up until Gen 3. There were serious budget and hardware constraints, added to time constraints in Gen 2's case. The region was also sacrificed in favour of the postgame. It might not have aged well, but it worked perfectly as a sequel at the time.

>>57978827 (OP)
Game Freak designed GSC to flop because they didnt to make Pokémon anymore. They wanted the games to do so badly that Nintendo would end their contract and they would make real art, but toddies were so stupid they didn’t realize they were being insulted and bought it anyway. So Game freak is stuck making Pokémon forever

Why you cant buy elemental stones in stores? Literally the reason why i dont bother using mons that evolve though them.
> Just rng the phone call brawh.
Nah.

>>57978827 (OP)
There's a reason why Johto is only known for its rural weeb vibes. The Pokemon suck in design and in battle, the region is empty and boring, and the best part about it is leaving it for Kanto.

>>57978827 (OP)
you were supposed to trade them to rby to evolve them, it was all a Jewish ploy to get you to buy more games

>>57978827 (OP)
>I have to…play the game to find Pokemon? NOOOOOO THIS IS BAD DESIGN

I think they wanted you to appreciate first stage mons more, and for one or two of your friends, but not everyone to get the phone call that would give you the stone, so that it seemed more exciting. IIRC one of the original design ideas for Pokemon was an RPG that let you trade items among friends so that everyone has a slightly different experience. I think this was them trying to realize that idea. The games aren't hard, you don't need a team of fully evolved mons, and it's expected for you to take it slow. I beat Crystal with a Poliwhirl on the team, and he did fine.
As for the Johto pokemon, it's a bad move in execution, but I think they wanted both halves of the game to have exciting new mons, and I think that's as far as they thought.
A lot of people that complain about Johto seem to want the game to be a single-player battle simulator, whereas the devs clearly intended a slower, more social game that you play bit by bit.

>>57978827 (OP)
I will save this for a future "." thread

>>57979161
>it worked perfectly as a sequel at the time.
consumers didn't agree

>>57979179
it makes you wonder what guys like picrel actually love about it other than their own nostalgia

>>57978827 (OP)
>>57979126
>>57979168
>>57979179
Don't you faggots ever get tired of posting the exact same bait over and over and over again?

>>57979172
>>57979232
Part of the design was that you’re meant to use the new Johto branching evolutions like Politoed and Bellossom. Not that you need the strength in Johto, but for mons with new evolutions that’s at least an option. No idea why they had Growlithe and Vulpix as Johto’s Fire canines over Houndour though.

>>57980526
No. These are the only threads that actually discuss the games. Don't you get tired of raging here instead of just staying on Reddit?

>>57980430
It did better than BWshit2, my dude.

>>57980573
>pic
Wow, he is literally you, but you are brown.

>>57980526
Don't you niggers get tired of posting about childhood nostalgia, the """mystery""" of the new Pokemon and the same Ecruteak City fanart?

>>57980786
it do be like that

so long as there is gen ii wankery, there I shall be with grim reminders

>>>/vr/11845580

>>57980786
got her ass

>Yawnie seething so bad the pro gen2 thread is still up on VR she made this to cope in her seethe chamber
Kekaloo

>>57980794
The OP is the cordie rapper
https://archive.palanq.win/vp/thread/56446241/#56447692

>>57978827 (OP)
It's an ebin design decision.
The inclusion of Houndour makes Route 7 memorable. And you can still catch Growlithe/Vulpix there in GS.

>>57980526
>encounter tables from the games is bait
strongest johtimmy argument

>>57978827 (OP)
Honestly never understood why you could just buy the stones in Gen 1.
Like 80% of the Pokemon with stone evolutions can only be caught either at Celadon or after Celadon, so what exactly is the challenge in getting them to evolve?
Unless the Pokemon has alt evos like Eevee or Gloom it just seems like such a weird extra requirement and they very rarely actually add any new stone evolutions even now that they actually have some more interesting methods for obtaining them.

>>57978827 (OP)
i genuinely don't see a problem with saving some cool new mons to discover for the post game

>>57980433
this image is only half accurate. literally no one plays just for Kanto, that's just what anti-johtofags claim we do.

>>57980794
joe says literally nothing here

Houndour's not a Johto Pokemon, it's a Kanto Pokemon. The same is true with Murkrow.
Honestly I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out. It's kind of interesting how they don't show up in Johto AT ALL.

>>57981039
porygon2 and blissey to

>>57981004
>Like 80% of the Pokemon with stone evolutions can only be caught either at Celadon or after Celadon, so what exactly is the challenge in getting them to evolve?
There was none, that was the point. The challenge wasn't evolving them, the challenge was training their pre-evos high enough to get the moves you wanted BEFORE you evolved them. With the exception of the Eeveelutions, all the store-bought stone evolvers stopped learning most, if not ALL, of their line's moves once you evolve them. Clefable/Wigglytuff were the same with Mt. Moon's moon stones.
You weren't supposed to evolve them as soon as you could.

>>57978827 (OP)
honestly, what were they thinking? why would anyone want to use growlithe or vulpix instead of the new fire AND dark (new type added in gen 2 btw) type? or flying AND dark type?

>>57981120
Because dark type is あく.

>>57979126
>Say stupid bullshit verbatim to previously established bullshit arguments
>Expect to be taken seriously
Nah eat shit

>>57979126
All of those mons are good though, that argument makes no sense

>>57978827 (OP)
murkrow is available in the safari zone in hgss
technically so is houndour but it's still postgame only so ill give you that one

>>57981113
How was anyone supposed to figure this out without Bulbapedia? As a kid in the late 90's / early 2000's there was no way to know what the move lists were so when should you evolve them? When they've reached level 100 so you're sure you didn't miss any good moves? It's just badly designed no matter which way you slice it.

>>57978827 (OP)
Because it was the very first new generation. Gamefreak had no idea how to tackle it yet, so they tried really hard to explain why there were suddenly way more pokemon. Their first take on it was that those new pokemon were either common in the new region, or brand new discoveries that were very rare to find.

>>57981731
Yeah it's probably one of the worst noob traps in the series.
Unironically GSC locking stones away to the post-game ends up being a better call cause it ensures you actually get good moves on your pre-stone evos.

>>57981731
The game did sort of tell you this via a random NPC talking about it.

>>57981027
toddies have spent two and a half decades unironically announcing the highlight of their time playing johto was the moment they stepped into kanto
if you deny this you're confirming you are yourself just another disingenuous tod

>>57979232
I think this perspective kind of makes sense looking at Gold and Silver. Even though Growlithe and Vulpix were available at roughly the same point as they would have been in Red and Blue, you still wouldn't have been able to get the Fire Stone until Kanto or with luck through Mystery Gift. With the latter, you would basically need to have a friend or sibling to interact with or a N64 and Stadium 2 if not. Crystal remedied this which was a neat feature.

It could also be suggested that this was an intentional design choice with Houndour or Murkrow considering you first meet them during the Rocket side story and the routes you find them in are near the hideout. Still a strange choice in design just because there were many other examples not encountered until Kanto.

>>57981377
no one’s waiting that long to add a shitmon like murkrow to they’re team. should have been in illex forest at night

>>57981902
>Still a strange choice in design just because there were many other examples not encountered until Kanto.
Slugma came from Cinnabar erupting, and Tyranitar is the pseudo so you don't find it until the very end of the game.
No idea why Misdreavus is so elusive. It wasn't a late addition like Wobbuffet.

>>57978827 (OP)
How can we make this about Gen 6 and Kalos?

>>57981987
Making it Gen 5 and Unova tends to work for some reason.

>>57982012
this

>>57980430
RGB is the clear outlier there. Gen 1 Pokémania just couldn't be replicated.

>>57982111
that's a funny way to cope with gen pwo killing the hype

>>57982130
>implying octopus and jellyfish are the same or even remotely similar

>>57982135
johtards and missing the point: name a more iconic combo

>>57981039
splitting hairs over terminology does not invalidate the underlying issue

>>57982138
if only there was a point to miss in the first place

The version of Gen 2 we got came out at more or less the rate of a human child. Between the Porygon incident, development seemingly stopping in mid-1998, and the international release of Gen 1, the series was in a state of flux and it was only when Masuda took over and basically restarted development entirely. Tons of Pokemon were good enough to put in the game but given these are the kind of people who played Dragon Quest 2 they were probably paralyzed by the fear of making the game too hard (and believe me they understood how busted they make Psychic type in Gen 1), so instead of making them good and putting them front and center they made them underwhelming and put them off in obscure areas. Not great for making a solid JRPG campaign, fucking amazing for making a living world you would explore to find secrets which is a huge part of what made Pokemon popular in Japan in the first place and probably why it worked internationally as well. HGSS went in a similar direction of making the game more like that, so at least Morimoto realized the appeal despite being the battle system guy.

>>57982168
you'll go to your grave telling yourself this

>>57982177
>it's le bad because it's simpler
brainlet take

>>57978827 (OP)
You can get all the Johtomons in Johto in the remakes. Safari Zone.

>>57979126
>featureless arm nubs bad because.....

>>57981731
>As a kid in the late 90's / early 2000's
Which you clearly weren't, because if you were you'd know the power... NINTENDO POWER and the OFFICIAL NINTENDO POWER STRATEGY GUIDES. That shit legit expanded my vocabulary and helped me figure out all the tricks to the game as a kid. Prima guides get an honorable mention.

>>57980573
ok let me rephrase that
don't you get tired of always "discussing the games" with the exact same arguments and images? what exactly are you trying to achieve? we've all seen these posts a thousand times before

>>57978827 (OP)
>posts good choice
huh?

>>57978827 (OP)
>It's a Johto thread

>>57981039
How do I find Houndour in RBY?

>>57982138
this being deleted once again proves the only gens you are not allowed to criticize on /vp/ are Unova and Johto

>>57982012
not this

>>57982195
making sure nobody else falls for the lies
if the "same arguments" don't get posted over and over, then they won't get posted, and they won't get seen

it's simple; are you a newfaggot?

look at picrel for just one example out of hundreds of things that stopped being posted because they stopped being posted

stop asking retarded butthurt questions

>>57981932
You almost never see Safari Zone mons in a hall of fame team. Bothering to catch up something like Larvitar is aids

>>57982177
my guy it's a penguin.

>>57981377
Doesn't count if it's not available on the 1st visit. No one's building up the safari zone for their in game team.

>>57982330
How do you find Houndour in Johto?

>>57982156
I don't see it as an issue to begin with, which is a wider crux of the "issue."

>>57982766
>why does a lategame pokemon look like a plush doll compared to the early game baby bird

>>57982776
>I don't see it as an issue to begin with
then your input matters not

>>57982668
oh okay so you think different opinions and tastes are "lies"
could've just said "because I am autistic" and saved yourself time

>>57982698
speak for yourself, ive used tyranitar for lance and it was awesome
>>57982769
murkrow is available before you unlock placing items

>>57982668
>larvitar
mt silver is part of johto

>>57982885
the feels guy brainlet that anon is referring either doesn't know or intentionally ignores that fact. But to be completely fair, had feels guy brainlet said "postgame" instead of "Kanto" they would be accurate

>>57982766
see >>57979126
any other copes, toddy?
rhetorical question

>>57982936
>rats look different from tanuki ferrets
wow who would've guessed?
cutemons are based as hell btw unlike your cringeworthy discord ass

>>57980526
As long as you keep responding, they have reasons to keep reposting. Literally don't feed the troll, it's THAT fucking simple.

>>57982836
Why does your input matter more?

>>57983101

>>57982903
larvitar is available in unmodified safari zone in hgss though

>>57979126
>GSC was a cashgrab rushed to try to make as much money as fast as possible
That's not how you spell frlg

>>57983276
No that's GSC.

>>57981731
iirc an npc says it and the anime had an entire episode on it

>>57983156
This aged like milk lmao
The Johto zoomer pretending to be retarded is pissing off /vr/

>>57983668
>pretending
i'm reading it and no gschizo is actually that retarded

>>57983235
he's a zoomer who thinks gen=region.

>>57978827 (OP)
I hate that HGSS fixed most of this, but Houndour is still fucking Kanto lock. WHHHYYYYYY!? Is it because he was in Platinum pokedex?

>>57984346
just hack one in at the start of the game

>>57981731
>As a kid in the late 90's / early 2000's there was no way to know what the move lists were so when should you evolve them?
anon, the internet existed back then. so did physical guidebooks

>>57980559
Lotta people also forget you can just use the time machine mechanic for stones. All the mons that use the old stones to evolve are gen 1 mons anyway. I swear fags on here don't even play the fucking games they bitch about.
>>57978839
>noo I have to play minigames to get items oh the humanity

>>57979232
Using NFEs and lower level mons are part of the fun of the Johto campaign.
Pokeniggers complain that the games are too easy but never want to engage with anything that challenges them click the type match up.

>>57978827 (OP)
Playing through SoulSilver again. So far I’ve got Gatr, Scyther, and Magmar. Who else do I choose, ignoring obvious things like Mareep? Surely it’s not that shit.

>>57985007
Use a Miltank

>>57985007
xatu

>>57985020
I did want to try it but its moveset looks pretty weak. Maybe I can trade it to a Diamond cart with Psychic or something.

>>57982012
Well, that's a simpler case. Everyone who's played gen 5 agrees it was a low point in the franchise, except the zoomers for whom it was their first or second game. It had no lasting impact on the franchise going forward and all its many gimmicks were quickly forgotten. Johto has a contentious but important place in the series' history by comparison.

>>57983254
>>57982880
>>57981377
The downside there is you are playing the worst possible Johto experience in HGSS.

>>57985140
speak for yourself, i enjoy the shit out of it

>>57985140
Why is there is pedantic argument over DS era pokemon games. I thought it Gen 4 and 5 were considered a golden age.

>>57985149
sex with kumatora

>>57985149
>I thought it Gen 4 and 5 were considered a golden age.
4 maybe. 5 was always divisive because the direction was different.

>>57985149
It was. Gen 5 reception was very mixed when BW first came out but gained a lot of appreciation over the years (including from its detractors) and now it is considered the best by many fans, old and new alike

>>57978827 (OP)
Hi zoomer! I know you didn't play the game so let me explain. See, Gen 2 pokemon were rare and newly discovered, so this is reflected by their encounter rates and locations. This was back when Gamefreak cared about worldbuilding and game design, I wouldn't expect you to know that. Glad I could clear that up for you zoomer!

>>57985149
They were until Dexit, then the GameFreak Defense Force came out of the woodworks to say "erm... actually Pokemon was SHIT up until now (aside from Gen 1, all hail Charizard)" in order to excuse the shortcomings of SWSH.

>>57985650
The fact that you're willing to accept at face value that prior to Red's journey, no one in the history of the Pokemon World ever thought to conduct research at night time, including Professor Oak, the leading authority on Pokemon who revolutionized the world's understanding of them and documented more species than anyone else ever had, is fucking hilarious.

>>57985149
Gen 4 was and still is, Gen 5 isn't and will never be.

>57985841
Reeks of K*los

>>57985149
Eh, Unova always had plenty of shitposts.

>>57978839
God forbid you actually play your Pokemon game, amirite? There's also a schoolkid that will call and give you a fire stone, too. (Not like you'd know)

>>57985650
>gay fanfic
>zoomer
holy shit, 2 for the bingo card!

>>57985991
How is "newly discovered mons" not on there