Thread 58149261

In the Old verses of Arceus legend, they literally reuse, line by line in japanese, the verses from the leaked development document "pmyth5.2 AUSU."

And in every instance that the true names of the Gods, Aus, Ea, and Ia are used, they are replaced with 3 Question marks "???" as if to directly call out the names of the kotoamatsukami that are behind the 3 pokemon avatars of Arceus, Palkia, and Dialga.

This also corresponds with "pmyth5.2 AUSU" explaining the mystery of the Flame Plate and the Earth Plate. That in the beginning, the cosmic egg burst open with Arceus, and the eggshell became giants of every element that attacked Arceus. (Earth Plate)

Arceus slayed the giants until they were nothing more than the plates (Flame Plate)

Finally, PL Arceus reaffirms the Sinjoh Sigil as canon, of which, only "PMyth5.2 AUSU" explains correctly with designations for Dragonite(winds creates by Rayquaza), Gyarados(waves created by Kyogre), and Tyranitar (quakes created by Groudon).

PL: Arceus affirms that the development document "PMyth5.2 AUSU" is the one that is used internally to align the in game content.

>>58149261 (OP)
I think that is the document CLOSEST to the canon, but not 100% it.

The story of the tree of life and the pokemon war differ from what happens in gen 6. You can see they definitely took inspiration from it but Palkia and Dialga didn't end the war with catastrophe, AZ did using the ultimate weapon.

That said, it's wild that they are still pulling out these development docs to write things in modern games.

>>58149261 (OP)
>Schizorambling about something a GF slapped together when they were drunk
Cringethread?

>>58149550
don't blame me that the leaks align with the in game content.

Clearly the kotoamatsukami concept of Aus, Ea, and Ia are still in the zeitgest of gamefreak's official lore if they quote song and verse from the leaks and directly censor their names.

Whats more is the Sinjoh Sigil getting explained only by the leaks by reaffirmed as canon in Legend's Arceus.

>>58149261 (OP)
If content doesn't make it to the final game it isn't canon.
pmyth5.2 AUSU isn't more canon than proto Arceus or mega jinx

>>58149707
Cope

>>58149385
Thats a fair point. I think all SINNOH specific things in pmyth5.2 AUSU are at least one-to-one canon. The team probably deviated from that lore when working on X/Y but used the Tree of Life and Pokemon War / Catastrophe from pmyth5.2 AUSU to write the canon story we got.

>>58149707
>Game doesn't explain Flame and Earth Plate
>pmyth5.2 AUSU Does

>Game doesn't explain Sinjoh Sigil
>pmyth5.2 AUSU and leaked diagram do

>GF team continues to put more pmyth5.2 AUSU verses into newer games decades later word for word in Legends Arceus "Old Verses"

You can't deny that this specific doc clears up otherwise unexplained things in the game and even seems to continue to be a source of official content to this day.

>>58149725
My head says they never will, but my heart hopes that one day they do end up releasing the full creation myth as official, canonical... something, instead of just leaving it in the beta version and never doing anything with it in the final game.

>>58150163
Or not "never doing anything", per se, but like, only picking and choosing bits and pieces to drip-feed.

>>58149261 (OP)
no, the insistence on the aus, ea, and ia names makes you sound like a fucking idiot and undermines the fact that everything else you're saying about the myth being internal canon is true. the dumb shit about arceus, dialga, and palkia being avatars of gods with other names is an unwarranted and unnecessary extrapolation from the available data, you're insisting on a distinction where one doesn't exist and if you want to be taken seriously you should stop. they're literally just beta names that were completely replaced by the ones we know.

>>58149261 (OP)
>Tyranitar
>a non ground type
The gods will fall to appease my autism.

>>58151158
The fact that he even thinks the myths are “canon” in the first place suggests a gross misunderstanding, since Masuda in both his “??? Myth” notes and in his Cyrus story notes states that the myths and legends about the creation dragons and Arceus aren’t even what actually happened.

>>58149707
this is true, funny how all the "lore" from the teraleaks is fanfiction

>>58149550
>>a GF slapped together
Good morning!

>>58151252
But the ending of legends Arceus proves that Arceus is literally just an avatar of "great sinnoh" as the game likes to call it.

The Arceus you receive is "but a fraction of my power." Which aligns perfectly with pmyth5.2 AUSU and the way it conveys the creation trio and Arceus as being kotoamatsukami.

Are you surprised Japanese games have Japanese theology in them?

>>58149261 (OP)
With every day, Regignosis comes closer and closer to the zeitgeist. The English speaking world will wake up soon.

>>58151718
No, Regigigas is a legendary Pokémon of the same rank as Ho-Oh and Lugia.

Furthermore, the giants were killed so their corpses could be turned into plates. However, Regigigas existed at the same time as Blank Plate, so it is not one of the giants mentioned on the plates.

>>58151730
its strange when you think about the themes of the different regional Gods and their counterparts.
Mespirit being the pokemon of emotion watches over the Regis who are all emotionaless destructive golems (that seem to actually break from the sinjoh sigil as there are more of them)
Uxie is the pokemon of knowledge and it watches over mindless life-birth deity and its low intelligence "beasts" that are so feral they actually roam and flee in the game like wild animals, unlike the statements in the Old Verses that say that pokemon innately are drawn to people in the tall grass.
Azelf is the willpower pokemon but all the pokemon it reigns over are forces of nature, things that naturally occur without volition.

Only thing that stirs up intrigue is that Regigigas now has unbalanced the sigil of Arceus as he now controls two more "lesser gods' from the designation of the sigil.

>>58151780
Rather true. I think the two new Regi are a bit like the Regional Birds or Beasts of the past. Even if they don't explicitly expand the trio

>>58151794
beasts of the past were created by Terapagos so those are completely new creations made outside of the Sinjoh sigil.
As for the Galarian birds, only way they can make sense is if they are the same birds but corrupted in the same line as shadow lugia, as all 4 birds have a "dark" form that could be themed around their "natures" being corrupted by the influence of mankind. All 3 of the galarian forces of nature have distinctly "evil' looking designs and dex entries.

However the regis are implied to have always been around as they would have had to have been made in Galar by Regigigas when he was still towing the continents before Arceus had humanity seal him in the snowpoint temple the 1st time in Legends Arceus (and then a 2nd time after that which explains platinum)

So has Regigigas always been an unbalanced force in the Pokemon world?

>>58151836
Terapagos doesn't have the power to create beings; he moves things around in the timeline.
XD's Shadow Lugia isn't actually canon and has no connection to the Galarian forms.
The bird trio isn't unique; we encounter several in LGPE. Other minor legendaries aren't unique, such as the Regis (except Regigigas), Heatran, etc. They're just extremely rare.

>>58151902
Either way, the paradox pokemon aren't native to this universe and therefore aren't part of the sinjoh sigil. The implication of their timelines being 1 without humans (past) and 1 without pokemon (future)

So would the implication be that "Servant Gods" are able to be multiplied but not "Gods of Creation" like Ho-oh, Regigigas, and Lugia?

Ho-oh doesn't really "create" insofar as it just resurrects beings. Turning Jolteon, Flareon, and Vaporeon into the beasts on revival.

Regigigas creates beings using earthly materials and can apparently even grab energy out of the sky to create Regieleki and even abstract concepts like dragonic energy to make Regidraco.

But where exactly does the creation of the forces of nature come to be contingent on Lugia?
Hard to say but the galar variants sure do align with shadow lugia with their pokemon names in japanese being "Harsh Kick pokemon, Cruel Pokemon, and Maleviolent pokemon." Their dex entries also follow this theme.

>>58149261 (OP)
The Sinnoh myth from D/P/P says pretty much the same:
>Betray not your anger, lest ??? will come.
>Weep not with sorrow, or ??? will draw near.
>When joy and enjoyment come natural as the very air, that is happiness.
>Let such be blessed by the hand of Master ???.
>Those words were spoken often as customary.
Aus, Ea, and Ia are all censored there too. Them reinforcing that in Legends Arceus really solidifies it. However it is quite baffling that in a game that extensively explores the origins and lore of the Sinnoh creation myth, they never ONCE address who the fuck the Giants were in the flame plate.
Best we can assume is that doc like OP implies based on how much it seems to sync up with in game content.

>>58151528
None of this suggests any of that. Take your headcanon elsewhere.

>>58152146
The giants really aren’t relevant. They threw out a number of hypothetical myths about what they could have been, but ultimately decided to leave it as a cheeky reference to the titanomachy. It really isn’t meant to mean any more than that, since Sinnoh’s myths are just legends loosely based on real mythos and Masuda has been upfront about their verisimilitude being dubious in-universe, both in his old interviews and in his leaked messages as the game director.

>>58152208
Arceus literally says "Take a fraction of my power" and gives you an Arceus. Ergo it is stated and shown on screen that Arceus the pokemon is not the true complete form of "Sinnoh Almighty."
The way Aus and Arceus are conveyed between the leaked pmyth and in the game is literally like a kotoamatsukami in Shinto Myth and their avatars on Earth.

How is it headcanon if its literally what is shown and aligns with the theology of the writers?

>>58152217
Myth is different from what Arceus directly writes on the plate. We know that the plates are made of dead giants and that the giants were made from the cosmic egg.
That whole episode of the cosmic egg attacking Arceus and him beating them into plates would explain a lot about Arceus, the multitype ability and where the plates came from and their ACTUAL relationship to Arceus. Legends Arceus completely glosses over this even though the plates are the central key items in the game.

>>58151730
One more point to note - We still don't know what the fuck is AZOTH, despite this word appearing over and over again since Gen VI.

AZOTH = The Giants?

Also, if I remember correctly - it's mentioned that Regis were created by ancient people so they are not Giants, that's for sure. But I still think that they may be replicas of Giants of some sort.

>>58152006
>Jolteon, Flareon, Vaporeon
>Literal fan theory with nothing confirming it either in the games or leaks.

>>58152208
>Literally did not even played PL:A and has no clue that the Pokemon that we know as Arceus is just one of the "hands" of the real Arceus/Shin'Oh/The God of Pokemon.

I was believing that this may be an interesting thread but no, you just talk out of your ass, absolutely ignore half of actual in-game information and run with fan theories as canon. You are retarded, please shut up, consider suicide, never post again.

>>58152249
Because he skipped over the dialouge when playing

>>58152254
>AZOTH
Just the codename of the magma/aqua teams to use the primal reversions to complete there plan. What else is there to say?

>it's mentioned that Regis were created by ancient people so they are not Giants
No the Regis were made explicitly by Regigigas. We don't know who or what made Regigigas exactly as he is listed in the sinjoh Sigil as a "Creator God."
Ho-oh gave itself life through rebirth and Lugia was created by nature.

>>58152287
Nigger, play the fucking games?
AZOTH was also mentioned on tablets in Area Zero and appeared also as letters AZ in multiple other places. Really, you're underqualified to discuss Pokemon lore.

>>58152281
I mean are you implying that the 3 pokemon that died were just Raikou, Entei, and Suicune to begin with? We don't know exactly, just that those 3 only exist specifically from the revival they had at the hands of Ho-oh.

>>58152305
I'm implying that we have no idea what were the actual identities of Pokemon that died in Burned Tower, they may be just the ratattas for what we know.
Again, stop being retarded. A porn thread or some shit died because you wanted to look like a brilliant Pokemon lore researcher but now you look like a faggot.

>>58152301
yeah AZ is in a lot of places, referencing the beginning and the end, the character himself, etc. But I don't recall them in Area Zero, been a minute since I played Violet, can you refresh my memory on that one?

>>58152320
Why so angry man, we're just having fun talking about how the pmyths are more connected to the in game lore than previously thought.
Calm down.

>>58152208
>Headcanon
>It's literally the ending of the game

>>58152325
Man, who even knows. Maybe he's just a schizo off his meds, maybe he's too autistic to handle other people enjoying things and simply correct people who got something wrong, maybe he's an actual child.

4chan gets worse little by little every year as new edgy kiddos find out about it and decide they wanna join the SeEkRiT kLuB. Instead of lurking whatever boards they find interesting to learn their culture they just start spamming vitriol and call everyone nigger with a hitler gif or maybe off-topic porn because that's what they heard it's like here, thinking that'll make them fit in and everyone will think they're one of the KoOl KiDz when in reality very few of us were ever like that outside of /b/ and have allways just rolled our eyes or laughed at them being fools. Hell, even there it was mostly in jest and any actual discussion there was still relatively civil, the content and topics were just bound by less rules, but it was fun there once upon a time because we were all there for the same unrestricted, unfiltered shit. It's like when the early Norwegian black metal scene attracted all the edge lords because a handful of the inner circle went too far for the image with church burning and murder so that's what got noticed by everyone when most of them just hung out playing chaotic music and talking about how they liked their corn flakes.

Anyways, good catch on pla and the old dev docs using the exact wording, op. Those myth files were somewhere in gfdocs, right? Might be some more stuff that gets recycled in plza so this'll definitely be worth another look once that's out.

>>58152596
Definitely something to see with ZA, especially now that it's been revealed that mega zygarde was the ultimate weapon after all. The "tree of life" and "pokemon war that lead to divine calamity" myth part of the pmyths always seemed like the general inspiration for gen 6's lore, but now it seems like we might finally get more clarity.

Did the weather trio, the lake trio, or just zygarde cut down the tree life?
Why did zygarde turn into the ultimate weapon for ZA?
If the ultimate weapon is what caused the mega stones to appear, how is there a mega stone for zygarde(presumably)?

>>58152006
They don't come from another universe. They're not really Ultra Beasts.

We don't know what Beasts were before. Jolteon, Flareon, and Vaporeon are a theory.
Note, however, that Silver's Dex stipulates that Entei are born when a volcano appears. Or that Latias lives in small groups (Emerald's Dex).

The franchise has evolved and doesn't necessarily apply everything to the letter.
Besides, I wouldn't find it ridiculous if Regigigas was able to create several Regirock, Regice, Registeel... Temples and caves are found in several regions, and they aren't Pokémon with special mobility allowing them to travel.
Except for Regidrago, which has limited resources, I think it can create several.

>>58152287
In my opinion, Pokémon like Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Regigigas, Lugia, and Ho-Oh are embodiments of nature.

There are some that are the avatars of continents and oceans, guardians of the sky and the seven seas who govern storms and good weather, or the one that makes the continents drift, or even a personified ozone layer.

>>58152690
Isn't another timeline just another way of saying another universe?

Guzzlord comes from a different timeline where it ate all of alola alive.

>>58152782
It's never stated that Guzzlord came from here. It's not even uncommon for Ultra Beasts to be brought back to Alola; it's happened throughout history and even in the past.

Ultra Beasts are explicitly described as originating from another universe.

>>58151718
>>58151780
>>58151836
>>58152006
>>58152325
Kill yourself Regischizo.
YWNBC

I like to think the Legend Plate is forged at the Sinjoh Ruins, on the Mystri Stage. The Plates are set in grooves around the edges of the Stage, and when the last Plate is set the Unown in the Ruins wake up and superheat all the plates with telekinetic energy. The liquefied plates flow towards the center and the Unown reverberate the air with Arceus' battle theme. The platesmith must strike the still-forming Legend Plate in time with the drumbeats with hammers in ritual for reverence to Arceus.

The forged Legend Plate is a manifestation of Arceus' will, and could not be truly forged so long as Regigigas possessed the Blank Plate.

>>58152940
You will never be cucked? what do you mean counter schizo

>>58152896
Due the dimension you find guzzlord called "ultra ruin" in ultra sun/moon is literally an alternate universe where guzzlord ate all of alola alive.

There are signs for hau'oli city and the theme is being broadcast and everything.

>>58152940
Lmao he is lashing out at everyone when I am only 1 of those posts.
>>58151718


You really must be scared of regignosis to attack everyone ITT just because you saw me post once. The regihater never dies and he does it for FREE! Love you boo! See you next thread!

>>58153076
It destroys the city, just as an Ultra Beast not native to its own world disrupts the ecosystem and environment.

An Ultra Beast from its own world is an integral part of its ecosystem and adapted to its natural environment.

>>58152995
Headcanon that makes no sense

>>58153149
but each of the dimensions in Ultra SM for the ultra beasts are their home dimensions.

Ultra Crater is the home dimension of Celesteela
Ultra forest is the home dimension of kartana (and the only other dimension with humans besides Ultra Megalopolis)
Ultra Desert is the home dimension of Pheromosa
Ultra Jungle is the home dimension of Buzzwole
Ultra Plant is the home dimension of Xurkitree
Ultra deep sea is the home dimension of Nihilego
And lastly Ultra Ruin is the home dimension of Guzzlord.

All the ultra beasts are invasive species pokemon that completely take over their dimensions like real life invasive species

>>58151902
>Time travels constantly
>doesn't create dimensional breakoff or paradoxes

Why does Celebi succeed where Terapagos fails with time travel?

>>58151902
>the first design in the series by turner which is clearly very special to him has nothing to do with the extremely similar regional forms of its underling trio introduced in the game where he was the art director
foolish take, frankly. they may not be overtly related but the latter are obviously evocative of the former and it's almost certainly on purpose.

>>58152995
Make a HGSS mod then

>>58152657
I saw that leak. So AZ convinced Zygarde to commit genocide? Finally some good pokemon lore.

>>58153428
Celebi doesn't follow multiverse theory

>>58153309
You don't understand what an invasive species is.

The principle behind an invasive species is that it is introduced into a natural environment that is NOT its own. This has the effect of negatively altering the new natural environment into which they have been introduced by degrading it, or preventing its proper functioning from continuing. It also destroys the populations of species in the already established ecosystem, which are unable to defend themselves because they are not adapted to the methods, habits, and characteristics of this new predator.
So it ends up completely dominating, destroying biodiversity and the biome that was not designed for them, by also grabbing resources and proliferating rapidly.
Therefore, the introduction of a new species makes it invasive in this new environment because it disrupts the naturally established order that existed before.

You must understand by this that the invasive species is not an invasive species in its original natural environment because it is integrated into the ecosystem and its environment, as this happened naturally through evolution. Therefore, other species are aware of the threat and its abilities, and the biome is adapted to their needs, creating a balance.

Ultra Beasts takes this concept, but takes its characteristics to the extreme, making them beings from other universes with different laws and biomes and ecosystems that contrast with our planet.


Therefore, if Guzzlord originates from a world almost identical to ours, it wouldn't be invasive in ours. And that would go against what Ultra Beasts are all about.

Also note that having an Ultra Beast per Ultra Whormhole is gameplay. Just like finding a species of Pokémon per Wormhole in a small area, without any logical explanation. It's oversimplified and takes shortcuts. Knowing that we know very little about these worlds, there's no reason to believe that Ultra Deep Sea and Ultra Desert are not two different places in the same world.

>>58153428
I wonder why Hoopa doesn't bring back an Ultra Beast with its rings, like Solgaleo could with an Ultra Whormhole, when he's supposed to move things from other universes.

I wonder why Rayquaza didn't stop the Eternatus meteorite, when that's his role.

At this point, these are just plot holes, or pretexts for a plot twist. But also because they weren't trying to develop the subject that far, or make it the major theme of a region and its history. Time travel can create temporal paradoxes, and it's not systematic; it all depends on how it's done.

>>58153428
Celebi is acausal.

>>58151158
>>58152208
Kill yourself, dumb golem.

>>58154260
The game literally says they are light-years apart

>>58154353
you can lock me away for 13,000,000,000 years and still i will remain, stay mad about it ye false god

>>58153428
Because Celebi's existence is nonlinear, it's not changing events or governing timelines like Primal Dialga and Terapagos. Its theme with time travel is that it's elusive as fuck and you may only SEE it once in your lifetime, if even that.

>>58154405
You're the one getting mad the leaks back the canon though. That's why you're sperging and pretending to be a walking rock. You. lost.

>>58152596
>4chan gets worse little by little every year as new edgy kiddos find out about it and decide they wanna join the SeEkRiT kLuB. Instead of lurking whatever boards they find interesting to learn their culture they just start spamming vitriol and call everyone nigger with a hitler gif or maybe off-topic porn because that's what they heard it's like here, thinking that'll make them fit in and everyone will think they're one of the KoOl KiDz when in reality very few of us were ever like that outside of /b/ and have allways just rolled our eyes or laughed at them being fools. Hell, even there it was mostly in jest and any actual discussion there was still relatively civil, the content and topics were just bound by less rules, but it was fun there once upon a time because we were all there for the same unrestricted, unfiltered shit. It's like when the early Norwegian black metal scene attracted all the edge lords because a handful of the inner circle went too far for the image with church burning and murder so that's what got noticed by everyone when most of them just hung out playing chaotic music and talking about how they liked their corn flakes.
Literal schizobabble

>>58154417
>spergs out and calls me a golem
>gets mad when i take the piss and respond as a golem
the leaks back the canon insofar as the events depicted within are the backbone of the story told in the games, taking them so literally you think dialga, palkia, and arceus aren't the names of the entities embodied by their corporeal forms is pants on head retarded.
tl;dr SHUT UP RETARDED FAGGOT, CRUSH GRIP!!!

>>58154260
The games and the anime both say those locations are their home dimensions and is the reason they are the ONLY pokemon in those world.

they are an invasive species pokemon that completely takes over their environments. Look at Ultra Plant and Ultra Crater. The entire geoscape is covered with only Celesteela and Xurkitree. These extremely powerful fast populating pokemon take over their planets.

>>58154410
>Celebi has you defeat Giovanni in the past
>This somehow doesn't effect the timeline.
I'm just saying, Celebi seems to be able to manipulate time without causing any issues.

>>58154469
It just begs the question why the censor the names in D/P/P as well as Arceus Legends when they take line-by-line from the leaked Pmyth docs where the original names of the Gods are instead of just saying Arceus, Palkia, or dialga.

Whats more, they use 2 question marks which aligns perfectly with イア and アは for the japanese names of Ea and Ia. Granted that we know "Sinnoh Almighty" is the real deity and Arceus is just the pokemon avatar for Sinnoh Almighty, its not hard to see the kotoamatsukami premise for the actual Gods and their pokemon avatars still being canon based on those facts.

>>58151215
those would have been cool as shiny colors

>>58154506
it's just a ludonarrative device, they have to assume when you read that text you haven't encountered those pokémon yet, and so their names are conveniently too faded to read. i understood that even as a child playing gen 4 reading the inscription on the statue in eterna city.
sinnoh almighty is the name humans gave to arceus, to my recollection arceus itself even tells you as much. there is no real nominal delineation between the being arceus and the avatar of arceus - it's all arceus. again i think your insistence on the beta names is incredibly forced. but really, call it sinnoh almighty if you must, at least that's a name given to it in a finalized product.

>>58154560
the Old Verse you get is already well late into the game that you would know who palkia, dialga, and Arceus are, so why censor their names?

Likewise in the sinnoh Myth the names are censored by in every other text they directly call out the names of the 3. Just strange that the verses that are taken directly from the pmyth5.2 AUSU leaks always seem to censor the true names of the creation trio every single time, but not when using text that was made from other sources outside of it.

also there is a designation as Arceus the pokemon isn't "Sinnoh Almighty" by his own words in the game. He directly tells you that the pokemon you get is his avatar. It would be likewise that the other creation trios also have true forms like Arceus does that is a real god, not a pokemon avatar that humans can control. The notion of Kotoamatsukami is directly taken from the Shinto creation myth which influences Arceus way more than what people in the west project from abrahamic notions of God.

>>58149261 (OP)
okay but still not canon though

>>58154476
>This somehow doesn't effect the timeline.
It doesn't affect the timeline because Celebi's actions are nonlinear. Giovanni heard Archer's radio broadcast, but decided not to take over Team Rocket again because you defeated him at the Tohjo Falls.

>>58154297
because Hoopa seems to be earthbound in its dimension hoping, always going to another earth.
Ultrabeasts are from completely different planets/universes.

Also Rayquaza didn't stop Eternatus because it knew the legendary heroes would stop him like they always do. Fug is for big deals.

>>58151902
>>58151836
Is there any reasoning as to WHY terapagos creates the Terastalization effect as well as timeline distortions?
Seems like a hell of a lot of power for generic pokemon that is the last of its species from the ancient past that just happened crystalize to save itself from being caved in.
Its like Eternatus, Celebi, and Hoopa at the same time.

When Masuda says Arceus "isn't God", he's actually completely correct.
You need to remember that the true gods of Pokemon, GameFreak, near-constantly self-insert themselves into their world, just so they can wink and nod at their players when they find the designated GameFreak room. Even if no one else in the game acknowledges them or can't see their true nature, they are indeed Pokemon's real gods. The ones who designed every creature, crafted every character, wrote every line and event, so on and so forth.

>>58155248
There are no gamefreak rooms in Arceus legends.

>>58155260
Because it would undermine Arceus' narrative if you came across a GameFreak campsite where you have these random bums talking about how they made the game you're playing right now, ergo, they're the real gods of the world, and not Arceus, AKA Almighty Sinnoh.

>>58154783
Maybe they have different True Names than the common ones we know, but given the specific ones in the leaks have yet to appear in finalized text I doubt those are the ones. They might have been beta names before we got the common names or placeholders for the true names specifically. Look at the shinjoh pantheon sigil, there's shit on there like birthly that aren't even close to existing pokemon names in Japanese and even if we're right about which pokemon ended up taking that slot that still isn't its name. The names consistently being unreadable while the rest of the text is unaffected by whatever rubbed it off/faded it even when we got to read it in a game set in the past where it'd be reasonable for it to be at least less faded makes it seem like they're details they haven't settled on yet or just don't want to share vs purely trying to maintain mystery around these pokemon who've been around nearly 20 years like the statue in dppt originally was doing.

>>58155229
Given it's the source of terastalization and nothing else shares that role or controls it in the same way/to the same extent I'd say that's its innate power and the time/dimension stuff was just tacked on to explain the paradoxes without having to make the new game and dlc story revolve around old pokemon for marketing reasons.

>>58155260
Because pla takes place in the past before Game Freak, or video games/developers at all, existed. The regular main series games all take place around the time they were released, give or take a few years if you take pic related as the canon timeline - Masuda once said there is no particular timeline so fans shouldn't worry about it too much. Clearly even internally there's no one solid answer to some things and it's up to personal interpretation or whatever works for the story they're trying to tell at the time, just like there's evidence to suggest the pokemon world is an alternate version of our Earth yet they'll also say the pokemon world is not Earth.

>>58152657
> Mega Zygarde was the ultimate weapon after all
Huh? Isn't the Ultimate Weapon the one that's in the middle of Geosenge Town? We literally see it in XY.

>>58152321
I've been looking throughout Area Zero and cannot find it, then again it's hard to navigate down there.

>>58154476
But the anime simply imitated the games and added a touch of interpretation.

Regarding the games, we know absolutely nothing about the locations of the Ultra Dimension, because nothing is really explained or given context.

Knowing that everything is mechanically simplified, deliberately to make a species of Pokémon accessible by passing through an Ultra Whormhole.
Is it relevant that Ultra Space Wilds contains a Legendary or an Altaria, because??? without it being in its natural environment, nor alongside other species?


Someone who travels through time, if they change history without it being induced into a loop. This causes inconsistencies.
If nothing happens despite the changes and there is no loop, then it is the past of an alternate timeline, or an alternate future has been created without altering the original future.

>>58154381
Traveling in light years makes no sense.
Firstly, because the number of light years is random, and simply serves as a value for the rarity of a Whormhole's contents (more like a score, like a mini-game).

Which means that you can find Ultra Deep Sea by traveling 4,800 light years, as well as by traveling 3,000.
And then the player doesn't age? Can they return to the exact same time they left without any time having passed?

And then we're traveling between different universes, not into outer space.

>>58154469
Relax, these are just code names for the new Pokémon.

Aus refers to Arceus.
Ia refers to Dialga.
Ea refers to Palkia.
Ry refers to Uxie.
Hy refers to Azelf.
Ay refers to Mesprit.
Tex refers to Regigigas.

In my opinion, Smilay and Birthlay refer to Shaymin and Manaphy, judging by who's placed in the rest of the outline (all Mythicals).

Dahab, Saan, and Gordon are probably Pokémon like Garchomp, Heatran, Darkrai, or Cresselia.

The difference is just that, with the exception of Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, and the Spirit trio, the other Pokémon don't have any documents that recognizably mention them with their old names. We just deduced that Tex was Regigigas because he is surrounded by his trio, as was the case with Lugia and Ho-OH compared to their Birds/Beasts.

>>58155083
You're inventing false justifications.
Hoopa can explicitly move things from other universes. He does it with Shiny Rayquaza from the movie, the Legendaries of ORAS, and it's even the basis of Masters EX where Hoopa moves everyone in the multiverse.
Furthermore, the limit on planets is never mentioned anywhere. But if we theorize about this possible limit, why can't he take Guzzlord when an anonymous person claimed he came from a parallel universe identical to ours on Earth?

The Eternatus meteorite fell 20,000 years ago.
The wolves first confronted Eternatus 3,000 years ago.

Rayquaza's goal isn't just to destroy an alien. It's also to feed on meteorites, to destroy them in order to prevent them from causing destruction on Earth. Especially since it radiates dangerous energy (Dynamax).
Rayquaza doesn't, to my knowledge, have the power to be omniscient. It's inconsistent that he doesn't neutralize the meteorite.

I won't even mention all the times the ecosystem is threatened, but Zygarde doesn't react.
It's just that Rayquaza or Zygarde defuse any story by default by their very existence. You have to poke holes in the plot and ignore them, otherwise nothing happens.

>>58155229
Terapagos from another timeline made the earthquake that killed all other Terapagos except the Terapagos who survived who awakened his powers to protect himself from the earthquake he himself created

>>58156039
Wtf ?

>>58156142
It's a paradox explanation for the pokemon that makes paradoxes

>>58149261 (OP)
How can someone learn all this lore?
I've played all the games and read the dialogue, checked out a good chunk of tera leak stuff and yet a lot of the stuff discussed here is new to me, and I'm known outside of 4chan as 'The Pokémon Lore Guy'.

>>58156203
Most of it is just headcanon

>>58156205
My posts aren't headcanon though

>>58149385
> Palkia and Dialga didn't end the war with catastrophe, AZ did using the ultimate weapon.
Even then this only breaks because its said in the delta episode the timeline without megas the war never happened, where if it was a case of just the weapon having not been fired to end it they probably could have got away with having both.

>>58156194
You're just making things up. The cause of the earthquake was never addressed, and Terapagos doesn't have such a capacity.

There's a difference between causing a temporal paradox and generating earthquakes.

>>58156224
The first thing Terapagos does after awakening is making an earthquake. It all adds up.
Besides is paradox writing 101, at the end it created itself. Did you not play 999?

>>58156224
>You're just making things up.
Which is literally all we CAN do regarding Terapagos because GameFreak isn't keen on giving us any answers anytime ever (or at least until a Legends Paldea game where we get to play as one of Heath's expedition buddies), and another event like the Teraleak isn't happening ever again.

>>58156232
Yes, I played the games, but you're mixing things up.

When he regains his true form, it happens in a burst of Terastal energy forced by the Tera Orb.
It's more of a side effect of the detonation caused by the excess energy in an unstable area that has already suffered greatly before.

So Terapagos doesn't have the power to generate earthquakes on demand. He's not Groudon.

>>58156278
Sure I don't think he can create earthquakes on demand as well. But the cutscenes makes clear Terapagos can create them.
I'm just following the same "turtles all the way down" problem with Arven. Every event is created by another one beforehand and so on. Heath also got his drawings in a dream by another Heath who got his drawings by another Heath in a dream who got his d- and so on. So the logical conclusion is thinking Terapagos is the same

>>58156224
Teeechinically anon isn't totally full of shit. It is noted that energy gathers and disperses from Area Zero, with the events of the game coinciding with eerily high activity. I mean its still headcanon, but not entirely bullshit headcanon.

>>58156299
However, no temporal manipulation took place during this moment, meaning that neither the clash nor the explosion occurred at the correct time. These events are made possible by the human possessing the Tera Orb to force the shapeshifting, which apparently didn't exist 2,000,000 years ago.

>>58155887
>Area Zero
>Are Zer
>Ar Ze
>AZ

I wonder why AZ would the the abbreviation for an area called Area Zero .... Guess we'll never figure it out

>>58156203
Just read the stuff in the Japanese version of the game and read the Teraleak with some general understanding of Japanese as the English localization misses a lot and without understanding Japanese you'll miss a lot just Google translating the leaks, much less the game dialogue meant for children reader of Japanese.

Flame plate, earth plate, the old verses, the sinnoh myths, Arceus final dialogue in the game, and then the pmyth docs from the teraleak.

>>58156203
Lockstin fishing for content again

>>58156010
>Multiverse
Of earth. He doesn't pull humans from Ultra Forest, the lone human from Ultra ruin, or anyone from Ultra Megalopolis.

Hoopa can't go to the distortion world or places outside of parallel earths. The ultra beasts are pokemon that developed on other planets in other dimensions so that is out of his scope.

>>58155278
Sinnoh Almighty existed before gamefreak in canon.

>>58149261 (OP)
The teraleak is the gift that keeps on giving

>>58149692
You know there are more legendaries than what's shown there, right? Gamefreak's only keeping it around because it looks cool, not because it has any real meaning.

>>58158200
the meaning behind the sigil is explained in the leaks and explained in further detail in pmyth5.2 AUSU.

The fact that it appears not just in HG/SS to explain the origin of pokemon eggs from Arceus but again to show Arceus' earthly domain confirms the divine order of the pokemon world.

Other legendaries are also explained in pmyth5.2 AUSU as the tree of life portion explains Xernas(Tree of life branches), yveltal (Tree of life roots).

Unova, Alola, and Galar legendaries are more regional than being in the godly order. Hell Eternatus and the ultra beasts are from outer space.

>>58158474
Let us know when any of that's actually made canon and not just some tired employee's random shitposting in the workplace.

>>58158484
we see examples of it in Arceus Legends. The literal lines of the Old Verses are taken line by line from pmyth5.2 in the Japanese text.
あらゆるものを友とせよ。
イアを怒らせてはいけない。エアを悲しませてはいけない。
裂けた大地は戻らない。
あらゆるものを友とせよ。

And that is just one example.

This is directly from pmyth5.2 AUSU dated months before Diamond and Pearl's release that would be put in character by character into Arceus Legend in the Old Verse 15 years later FROM THE EXACT DOCUMENT. And it quotes it so much that is CENSORS the true names of the God of Time and Space down to the Japanese character counts that align with how they are written in the pmyth doc.

This Document also explains 3 mysteries that are never explicitly explained in the game.
>Earth Plate Cosmic Egg
>Flame Plate Giants
>Meaning behind the non-legendaries in the Sinjoh Sigil

It is proof that pmyth5.2 AUSU is both the closest to canon of all the leaked myths and is an active document that gamefreak is using to confirm the origins and lore of the game.

>>58158484
What he's posting isn't even in the leaks. He's making shit up.
For example the Pokemon Earth in the corner is literally a deviant art post that was made way back in 2020 https://www.deviantart.com/commodoremjfire/art/Pokemon-World-Map-832722802 , or even earlier if we include the uncolored version.
>A scetch of a possible world map of the pokemon world. the planet is smaller than earth, but with a high amount lead under the surface, the planet has roughly mass and gravitation of earth. Can you find all regions known jet? :) I jused both commentarys from producers that the pokemon word is thought as a world different from earth and the fact, that some regions are roughly based on the structure of the japanese islands.
It's an actual schizo.

>>58158512
I literally just used an image to represent the pokemon world, I'm not implying a png is the canon image of the pokemon world dude. Its obviously changed in design since the D/P/P development cycle. Are you really trying to invalidate my argument over a representative png rather than arguing the tenants of the logic chain in the image backed up by the leaks?

The logic in the image is exactly what is conveyed in pmyth5.2 AUSU. Read it for yourself in Japanese:
https://tcrf.net/Development:Pok%C3%A9mon_Diamond_and_Pearl/Documents

Cross reference with the Old Verse, Arceus' statements at the end of Legends, the flame plate, earth plate, and the sinjoh sigil design doc and it all gets explained.

>>58158537
>Its obviously changed in design since the D/P/P development cycle.
I know because the leaks aren't canon.

>>58158537
Hey man, you've got some valid points but you're never gonna convince the guy you're arguing with. People like him won't accept anything less than the devs at Game Freak themselves publicly saying exactly how it is, no amount of evidence compiled from primary sources will sway them if there's the tiniest little shred of outside info or interpretation. At this point you could be saying "there's humans a lot like us in the pokemon world and their society is a lot like ours so their organic chemistry probably works the same way" and they still would screech that that's not canon because the games don't show us the periodic table.

>>58154783
i'm sorry man if i haven't already convinced you to pump the brakes a little i don't think i can.
to be frank i just really think you're getting too far into the weeds and putting your foot in your mouth, you're making it a much harder sell than it needs to be by nominally separating the entity from its avatar to force this bizarre aus part of the narrative that was clearly not finalized, while minimizing the importance of ludonarrative elements that really matter when you're talking about text that was designed to appear in both small and large parts in several video games. it's something that should be much more heavily considered, because the medium informs the message - the text is faded and the names are incomplete because the game needs it to be so. it all gets in the way of getting your own message across even though you're basically right about most of what you're saying (except the rejection of the abrahamic and, more importantly, gnostic elements of the story, which i legitimately resent because they're just as important as the blatant shinto influence) because you're stuck on a few things that i find completely pointless to be stuck on and find much easier to explain by other means.
that's really all i have left to say i guess, i don't think we're ever going to walk away from this argument feeling like we got through to each other.

>>58158644
You'd have a point if it weren't for the leaks constantly contradicting themselves and existing canon.

>>58158820
Bro Arceus directly confirms that Arceus the pokemon is just a portion of "Sinnoh Almighty." This literally the way a kotoamatsukami functions as creator deities in Shintoism.

I'm not saying there can't be other religious concepts incorporated but granted its a japanese company putting on direct japanese theology into their games, its not something to dissuade you just because it focuses mostly on the home religion of the games makers.

the nature of censoring their names in specific parts of the Sinnoh Myth in D/P/P and in the Old Verse that are one-to-one the lines from the pmyth, but censors their true names aligns with the concept of a kotomatsukami and their avatars.

If you're stuck up on the naming convention of Aus/Ea/Ia vs. Dialga/Palkia/Arceus, just know that in the myth these are the names of the Gods. And in the same pmyth Ea and Ia both take on pokemon form when the cause the calamity to end the war of pokemon.
So the need to seperate the true name of the trio's kotomatsukami from their pokemon names is necessary insofar as telling their myths, and this is consistent across all the pmyth5.2 and every instance it is copied into the games censoring their names.

Disregard the pmyth names if you want but the japanese censors 2 characters which align perfect with the characters of イア and アは. Either way there is implicit implications of the Gods(kotomatsukami) and their pokemon avatars being separate.

>>58158959
pmyth5.2 "AUSU" is pretty concise as being the source material the game uses based on how much it is referenced for the flame plate, earth plate, the Sinjoh Sigil, and the multiple parts taken for the Sinnoh Myth and the Old Verses line by line.

>>58159074
yeah i'm not responding again, argue with yourself man

5 minutes into Legends Arceus you literally go into the VOID beyond time and space mentioned in pmyth 5.2 AUSU where the universe was born from and see Arceus' true form. This is Aus. Hell it is even has the appearance that is similar to the beta Arceus design with the full body golden look and red eye holes and everything.

Kinda based that it all came full circle

>>58159183
this is literally the part of the game where it tells you its name is arceus you moron

>>58159206
That which humans call but didn't say that was its name. In pokemon form it refers to itself as Sinnoh Almighty later in the game but it doesn't call itself Arceus of its own volition.

But the name game the other anons are arguing over isn't the point. Its the additional details from the pmyth that are confirmed in the game.

I want to understand the meaning of Old Verse 12.

>"Hisui resembles Sinjoh, the birthplace of the ancient Sinnoh people. I will spend an eternity here, until someone with a mission appears"

It canonizes the previously unobtainable so questionably canon Sinjoh Ruins event from back in HG/SS. Also Cynthia, Volo, and Cogita all originally come from Sinjoh?

Is the "waiting for eternity in Sinjoh" Arceus waiting for the event in HG/SS?

>>58158474
If xernas and yveltal are the tree of life where was zygarde?

>>58154476
I really wonder how there can be humans in Ultra Forest on the other side of the universe.

Humans are barely spacefaring in the pokemon world.

I mean they might just be native like the folks from Ultra Megalopolis, or it's Faller-esque shit where some population just wandered/fell into an Ultra Wormhole and managed to make out a living without causing the weird fucking Pokemon there to kill them.

>>58159074
Do you realize that when he says this, he immediately grants the "Legend Plate" to the player? The part of him is the Legend Plate.

Furthermore, Aus, Ia, and Ea are just code names for news Pokemon.

They're not the only ones with them:
Ry = Uxie.
Hy = Azelf.
Ay = Mesprit.
Tex = Regigigas (guessed from its location in the diagram).

There are also:
Smilay and Birthlay (they're definitely mythical given their location in the diagram, maybe manaphy and shaymin).

And Dahab, Saan, and Gordon, who are probably Garchomp, Cresselia, and Heatran.

>>58158474
No, Regigigas is not a giant. Blank Plate contradicts this.
Because the giants were killed and what remained of them was transformed into plate. This means that the normal-type giant was already destroyed to create Blank Plate; it can't be Regigigas.

Knowing that in Sinjoh's symbols, Regigigas is elevated to the same rank as Ho-Oh and Lugia, it already has a defined place.

>>58156216
Which ones are yours?
>>58157158
Could be a coincidence. Though it does get you thinking.
>>58157192
I have done that. A lot of the stuff you guys suggest still seems like a stretch. It's only in the cases where it's worded exactly or similarly.
>>58157206
I hate that guy.
>>58159596
If Zygarde was originally based on Nidhogg, then it's chewing the roots, ensuring the tree doesn't get too big and unstable.


By the way, thoughts on the two following theories?
1. Original Dragon was a fourth member of the primordial forces (Dialga, Palkia and Giratina), representing Plasma.
2. Eternatus is the dark hand of God.

>>58160059
To be fair Im not entirely convinced dahabu wasnt a typo and actually meant to be Dãku which would line up with the prototype name for Darkrai found in battle revolution

why does OP reference files by name without providing a link to check them? That shit was months ago, I don't remember what they said exactly each and everyone you mention

>>58159183
Are you schizo? This is the 3D model of Arceus, except instead of having colors, it's completely luminous.

>>58160407
It's entirely possible, putting Darkrai and Cresselia together would make sense (maybe it wasn't originally planned to be mythical because Cresselia is legendary?)

>>58152782
>>58152896
>>58153076
>>58153309
SM doesn't have alternative timelines, it's a different type of multiverse. The (irl) theory is that if the universe is infinite and infinitely expanding then the number of celestial bodies in it is infinite, and if the number of planets is infinite then the number of chances for a planet to be exactly like ours is also infinite. By being infinite, the universe *must* have other planets like ours, planets identical to ours, planets similar to ours but with differences, planets that are like an alternate take on our planet.
That's what you explore in the alola games, that's why when you cross Ultraspace the game explicitly says
>"You arrive at a warp hole that was X light-years away from where you were."
You aren't reaching another timeline, dimension or whatever you call it, where you find other worlds, you are using Ultraspace (the only alt dimension explored in those games) to fast travel to planets that exist in the same timeline as the rest of the game, just extremely far away.

UBs are to space what paradoxes are to time. Necrozma tears space and pokemon that only exist in weird deviations of our planet show up. Terapagos explores time and pokemon that only exist in weird deviations of our time show up.

>>58160481
I like it a lot

>>58160481
Interesting how Necrozma and Terapagos both have an "omnitype" boost power with Z crystal of all types and terastalization boosting any, if not all types moves

Are they right? https://pokemonbbs.com/post/read.cgi?no=2381693

>>58160752
No, this is headcanon. Regigigas doesn't canonically have this implication, especially when Blank Plate buries this theory.

>>58160752
Regigigasfags are never right, they are only coping.

>>58160363
>1. Original Dragon was a fourth member of the primordial forces (Dialga, Palkia and Giratina), representing Plasma.
Maybe not plasma specifically, but as energy/matter it would fit as a counterpart to giratina's anti-matter/dark energy. Like palkia creates space that those two fill with stuff and dialga creates time giving the universe progression, the distortion world would just be the equal and opposite "other side" of our normal space-time.
>2. Eternatus is the dark hand of God.
Never played swsh but from what I've seen it was a meteor that crashed down and created pockets of dynamax energy then went dormant after the wolves kicked its ass only to be reawakened in the modern day by Rose's dumbfuckery, no? And dynamax is a projection created by a distortion in the space around the pokemon rather that the pokemon themselves growing? Unless I'm missing something then it seems more like an alien who's powers aren't known to have evolved in any Earth-based pokemon than part of the greater shaping of the universe. It's another world's equivalent of say terapagos or hoopa, a powerful legendary but not a deity or at least not outside of local mythos.

>>58161203
I validate this and we add Ultra Necrozma for light in general, the photon as a wave-particle.

>autistic faggot learns 1 (ONE [1]) Japanese term and starts using it in every post to seem smart
>thinks throwing this term out there immediately shuts down people poking holes in his fanfic
You love to see it.

>>58160481
>>58160749
>Necrozma fucks up space to give us aliens
>Terapagos fucks up time to give us paradoxes
they are both made out of crystals
I can actually fuck with this. Only thing is, where are Dialga and Palkia? Their domains are being majorly fucked with.

>>58160752
Regigigas being a giant has always been a common held belief in Japanese due to the implication of the characters used to describe them on the flame plate and how Regigigas is conveyed that is much more implicating than it is in English. But grants the pmyths (specifically the only living document that seems to be working with the lore to this day, 5.2 AUSU) doesn't explicitly call out anything with Regigigas it is hard to say. For the longest time it was presumed by the Japanese community that he was the normal type plate but Legends Arceus debunked that.
Only thing that is odd about Regigigas is that it is in the sinjoh sigil as a "creation god" but its circle is now unbalanced as it has more servant Gods with Eleki and Draco.
Like people argued earlier in the thread the paradox pokemon are from another timeline and the galarian forces of nature are implied to be corruption forms of them like shadow lugia, but we never got any more context on them in the games unfortunately to confirm if they are just 1 or multiples.

>>58161203
>Original Dragon
It is obviously the golden emperor dragon with the underlings of the cardinal directions being the 4 Therian forms the genies (white tiger, azure dragon, vermillion bird, Black Tortoise, all the colors that align with the gems on these forms) and this aligns with Kyurem having a Golden Gem on its head.

>>58161407
Recognizing Japanese theological concepts like the kotoamatsukami isn't shutting down anyones arguments, its just explaining why Arceus at the end of the game tells you the pokemon is just a piece of itself and it looks different when you see it in the heavenly realm at the beginning of P:LA. Its all typical concepts of the kotomatsukami

>>58161407
what term are you even talking about autist

>>58161511
Dialga and Palkia created and maintained space and time by their very existence. Having Pokémon like Terapagos, which spans time, or Necrozma, which spans space, isn't a problem.
I mean, Kyogre is the avatar of the oceans; that doesn't prevent Lugia from being the guardian of the seven seas, which generates storms, or Manaphy from existing.

In truth, the term "giant" on the flame and earth plates is the same as Regigigas' Pokédex classification. However, a Pokédex classification isn't enough to define anything, because it's not a story element; it just gives a vague and abstract idea of a Pokémon's theme or appearance. Torterra and Groudon have the same classification, without being truly related or linked in any storyline (and they aren't literal continents either).


But Galarian birds are just distant cousins of Kanto birds. The game indirectly implies that it's related to the DLC Dyna tree. Shadow Lugia isn't even acknowledged by Game Freak, it's not canon, and Galarian birds are regional forms, not Shadow Pokémon.
Note that Paradoxmon are not defined as Pokémon exclusive to other timelines. They are primarily portrayed numerous times by the game and other media as Pokémon from a DISTANT past/future (and not an alternative).
It's not like the Mega timeline without Mega. Nor like Ultra Beasts that don't come from our world.
What I mean is that Paradoxmon can clearly exist in all timelines. Just because you play Pokémon Y, or extract Lysandre with Yveltal from another world in USUM's RR, doesn't mean Xerneas doesn't exist in those timelines.


It was stated above that when Arceus grants a part of himself, he is actually referring to the Legend Plate he gives after this dialogue.
Because before, he was already discussing joining the player and he was already physically in front of the player.

>>58161606
>Note that Paradoxmon are not defined as Pokémon exclusive to other timelines.
They quite literally are, explicitly so

>>58161617
This. If anything Paradox pokemon are MORE pokemon than ultra beasts as pokeballs work on them normal while ultra beasts are so genetically distinct from Mew's genepool that it requires its own special ball to catch at a normal rate (but Pokeballs still can work on them to much lesser degree)

>>58161606
I always wondered what is the canon status of shadow pokemon. they occasionally are referenced in the spin offs and then BOOM the final boss of Pokken is Shadow Mewtwo with the same theme as Shadow Lugia.

But I guess its hit or miss seeing how Primal Dialga isn't Origin Form Dialga.

>>58161679
Primal Dialga is just Dark Dialga in japanese

>>58161617
Absolutely not. Many of the AI's dialogues claim that it comes from our past/future.

Only the professor at the lake hints at this. However, he hasn't yet achieved his goals (unfinished time machine, never met a Paradoxmon, nor studied/analyzed one).

And when the professor at the lake says this, he doesn't imply that it's exclusive to alternate timelines.

Just because I bring Kyogre back to Ruby (from an alternate timeline, doesn't mean it's exclusive to that timeline).

In ORAS, it explicitly states that there is a timeline WITHOUT and WITH Mega Evolution.

In SM/USUM, we're told that Ultra Beasts don't come from our world and that they are exclusive to the Ultra Dimension.

Paradoxmon doesn't have any lines of dialogue that mention timelines with and without.

>>58161702
No, bulbapedo editor, the AI and the professor aren't saying different things, the say the same exact shit, the translation just changed because the same term can be used to say "different points of the timeline" or "different timelines".
The traslators had no way to know which one it was in the base game, but with the extra context from the Indigo Disk we know it's "different timelines".

>>58161699
>Dark Mewtwo
>Dark Dialga
>Dark Lugia
>Shadow Pokemon in the japanese version are all called "Dark pokemon" in colosseum
Fucking hell, English localization again? This completely fucks up the "Evil Type" that is dark type is consistency and what the adjective means to the pokemon in question.
Apparently this stays true even in Pokemon Go.

>>58161679
I think the different types of Shadow Pokemon that have appeared in the franchise are all different phenomena.

We started with Pokemon cards, then Colosseum and XD, then Pokemon Go, then Dialga Primal, which is a kind of corrupted Dark Dialga, or even Mewtwo.
However, I see it as a stereotype or a reference to the cards. Because fundamentally, they don't always translate the same way.

>>58161710
Of course not. The base game includes context, with all the AI's lines of dialogue supporting time travel.
However, the DLC is handled by a different team and has no context about Paradoxmon or the time machine, etc. Therefore, the translation error comes from the DLC.

Especially when the anime or the cards claim it comes from a distant past/future. If it were an alternate timeline, it would just say "alternate past" or "alternate future" without any ambiguity.

But in any case, that's beside the point. What I was saying is that no matter which text you choose to apply, Paradoxmon aren't like Mega Evolution or Ultra Beasts. There aren't universes where they exist and others where they are described as non-existent, and that's the most important thing. Because it implies that they can be anywhere as long as it is tied to the future or past, regardless of the timeline.

>>58161714
Ah I see. Most have different meanings while a few are the same.
Darku Mewtwo and Shadow pokemon (Darku Pokemon) are the same english typifier.
Dialga is literally saying "Dialga of the Darkness" but Yomi being more implicit of darkness as a concept.
And the in pokemon go they are "Shadouo Pokemon" with a different english typifier different from the "Darku" pokemon

Damn, so much context lost in translations.

>>58161726
Nothing in the base game makes one of the two possible translations seem more correct than the other one, you could swap "different eras" with "different timelines" and there wouldn't be a single problem.
Meanwhile multiples things in the DLC indicate the alternative timeline one is the correct one, the things the DLC show can't possibly happen if it's a matter of different points of the same timeline.

The anime has also never addressed the origin of the paradoxes.
Stop lying, sad cuck.

>>58161726
Bro are you implying that Ho-oh existed 3,000,000 years ago and revived an aurorus, Tyrantum, and Bastiodon who each received the blessing of the lightning that struck the bell tower, the fire that burned down the tower, and the water that put it out?
Because that is the only way those pokemon can exist is from Ho-oh's revival specifically in the Bell Tower.

>>58161712
>yomi
"Yami", anon. Yomi is hell, yami is darkness
>Darkness Dialga (MD)
>Dark Mewtwo (Pokkén), Dark Lugia and others (XD)
>Shadow Pokémon (GO)

>>58161751
typo on my part, my bad. But you get what I meant.
>>58161740
Thats the biggest problem with S/V's story as a whole is so many widely implicating things happen and nobody ever explains any of it. What is Terrastral Energy exactly, What exactly is Terrastizaltion, How Terapagos became its source, why Terrastral energy caused time warps to open for the paradox pokemon, how exactly their time travel works relative to Celebi and Dialga.
Its just a fucking jumbled mess.

>>58161745
Doesn't it occur to you that Beasts are actually incarnations of nature that aren't unique, like birds? (which are equivalents).

Even so, it's been said of Entei since Pokémon Silver that one is born every time a volcano appears.
You take the events at the tower too personally.

Especially since the sketch made by the exploration team about the fusion of the beasts took place before the towers burned down. Oddly enough, the Pokémon look much more like the originals than the Paradoxmon. This means that people already knew about Entei, Raikou, and Suicune.

>>58161775
>Hyperbole dex entries
be real, in HG/SS we are told explicitly how the beasts came to be, and its from the resurrection power of Ho-oh that imbued them with the individual powers of the lightning that struck bell tower, the fire that consumed it, and the rain that put it out. There is no wiggle room from that.

>>58161839
>An imprecise legend told for several generations
We've never seen Ho-Oh use any resurrection powers. This could be a misinterpretation, as the Beasts could have triggered the catastrophes.
Especially since all descriptions of them describe them as incarnations of nature, like the north wind, purifying the waters, and so on.

The legends of Ogerpon contained errors.
When we talk about the creation myths of the world, we explicitly see Dialga/Palkia destroying the universe to create a new one, which confirms everything. The same goes for Kyogre and Groudon, who put everyone in danger.
Or history repeating itself with Ultimate Weapon, Eternatus and the wolves, Necrozma stealing the light, etc.

>>58161839
The guy who thinks Entei, Raikou, and Suicune are unique. Ouch, most Legendary Pokémon are extremely rare, especially those that aren't box art.
According to legend, Ho-Oh simply brought Pokémon back to life, we don't know what. This species probably existed before and isn't limited to the story of the towers.

>>58161896
It was only 150 years ago that the legendary beasts came to be when the tower burned down. This isn't some ancient myth, its literally recent history.

>>58161925
>150 years ago
Huh, it basically happened at same time as pic related.

>>58161984
whats your point? P:LA being recent history doesn't disprove that the legendary beasts are a relatively new thing.
The plates and Old verses are ancient history by the time of P:LA
Granted that Suicune is said to be "the reincarnation" it is possible that Ho-oh has revived pokemon of these 3 servant gods in the past, but 3,000,000 years ago?

>>58161925
And 200 years ago, a guy was able to draw this. Proving that Beast Trio already existed, because it's closer to the originals than to their ancestors.
We remember and transcribe better what we know, than what we see for a few moments that resemble something we already know.

>>58161925
The legend of Orgerpon is probably not as old as that. However, it contained errors of interpretation, inaccuracies, etc.

>>58162012
You naively believe that Ho-Oh is the only way these Pokémon exist, when that's not the case.

Well, a little thing like Calyrex has been around for at least 3,000 years.
Whereas Ho-Oh is a big Legendary that's supposed to be on the same level as Groudon or Rayquaza, which have existed for a very long time.

>>58162012
I'm not arguing the beasts aren't recent, more like the opposite, seeing some events of the Pokemon world happen first hand and knowing it's around that era where the beasts were (re)born really puts it in perspective.
Thinking about it, if the beasts were actually born from other sources, shouldn't they have legends far older than this? The paradox pokemon myths are extremely recent too and they are 200 year old, two generations older than the beasts' legend, it would be pretty weird if Suicune, Entei and Raikou have been around for hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of years and they only became known 150 years ago.

>>58162035
Ogerpon's tale is 200 year old, older than the beasts thing

>>58162100
This doesn't mean they were unknown before the events at the tower.
It just means that people interpreted Ho-Oh as bringing creatures back to life, and that they were the ones who emerged.

The presence of the beast trio could be something else entirely.

I see no problem with extremely rare legendaries, who are above all incarnations of nature, having ancestors, while other legendaries of the same caliber have regional cousins. Where there would be a small number of Latias and so on.

>>58162114
150 or 200 is kind of the same. It's not really a counter-argument.

>>58162164
Anon the burned tower is the legendary origin story of the beasts. There's no previous lore of them, regardless of what they think of the species' origin, humans have know them only for 150 years

>>58162179
Dex's entry is clear from the very first moment. But you reject it because it doesn't suit you, so I can't help you.

>>58162029
>And 200 years ago, a guy was able to draw this. Proving that Beast Trio already existed
No they didn't it's just an easter egg to the unreleased beast paradox pokemon or just a loose design for a red herring of what we could expect to come, we could also stretch it and say that it was a paradox pokemon from another timeline that we would never see again

>>58162221
Dex entry written after humanity discovered the beasts 150yo? Same dex that says Magcargo is hotter than the sun?

>>58161839
>ho-oh flies around
>sees a volcano erupting
>some poor pokemon unable to flee dies
>ho-oh resurrects it with the blessing of the fire that burned it
>an entei is born
The dex entry from gen 2 and still used in modern games, the myth as told in gsc, and the updated more detailed story from hgss are not incompatible.

>>58162282
Nowhere does it say anything about Ho-oh or resurrection in the original japanese dex entries for GSC. Just the same conjecture-ass "it is said that ABSOLUTE HYPERBOLE about this pokemon" that is extremely common in the dex written by 10 year olds.
>ほえると かざんが ふんかする。みなぎる ちからを おさえきれず みちという みちを かけめぐる。
>あたらしい かざんが できるたび うまれてくると つたえられる だいちを かけめぐる ポケモン。
>かざんの マグマよりも あつい ほのおを ふきだしながら だいちを かけめぐる たくましい ポケモン。

>>58162224
Not really. It's said that the author was inspired by the Pokémon (plural) he saw in Aera Zero to design it.

Logically, when you don't know a creature, but it shares traits with one you already know, you'll better memorize familiar traits. Especially during brief encounters.

>>58162282
Headcanon.

There's nothing wrong with Pokémon having multiple origins. As stated, they are, above all, embodiments of nature.

>>58162781
The resurrection thing comes from the game's myths/story, not the dex entries, it's literally the only thing ho-oh is known for doing in the lore. All I did was provide an example of how the two different canon explanations for where entei come from - the dex entry about volcanoes erupting, and ho-oh resurrecting it from one of the pokemon that died in the tower incident - can both be true. Just because dex entries don't make real world sense doesn't mean they aren't correct in-universe. Game Freak are trying to make games set in a world of fantastical monsters, not prepare kids for their physics exams.

>>58162890
Ho-oh isn't making legions of legendary beasts every time some pokemon dies to nature. The Sinjoh sigil explicitly conveys it only has THREE servant gods: raikou, suicune, and entei.

>>58163050
The point is canon says entei is not a one-of-a-kind unique pokemon, multiple exist even if they're rare and few in number. So >>58161839 is blatantly wrong about the one from the burned tower being the only entei to ever exist and the dex entry being irrelevant. If we're discounting canon info because some anon personally dislikes it then we may as well throw everything out.

>>58163185
>canon asay
where? and don't you quote that fucking dex entry again.

>>58163203
>and don't you quote that fucking dex entry again
The dex entries are canon. They're the in-game, in-universe source of information about a given creature. They're right whether you like it or not because there's no alternative and no reason to doubt them other than the fact that you personally don't want it to be true.

>>58163218
>Dex is canon
Stopped reading there.
Don't tell spoink or dracovish. Fucking black hole Gardevoir, the list goes on, but this dude is genuinely thinks dex are canon lmao. The amount of dex entries that are literally counter to in game lore is enough to disregard your opinion.

>>58163203
Do you have anything that says the dex IS NOT canon? You're the one making the extraordinary claim that the established canon info somehow is not canon. This is a setting where the mythology is true, they basically never go "oh, that wasn't what was going on" outside of a character having a misunderstanding. Show me one example of a dex entry, any dex entry, being explicitly contradicted/invalidated by other in-game information.

>>58163273
Kadabras are all a single teenage boy. Wild

>>58163287
>It happened one morning - a boy with extrasensory powers awoke in bed transformed into KADABRA.
One boy with psychic abilities turned into one kadabra. It does not say that single boy turned into EVERY kadabra. It documents one instance, it doesn't say if this happens a lot or if it was just the once, so we have no idea how common it is but it did happen. You have zero reading comprehension.

>>58149261 (OP)
I have a theory relating to Kyurem.
Ingame there's two theories, one where it came from a meteor, and the other where it was a husk that remained after the original dragon split.

My theory combines both. What if, the original dragon split, somewhere near Lacunosa Town, Kyurem falls into a deep slumber, then a meteorite crashes in the area, creating the Giant Chasm and waking Kyurem from it's slumber.

>>58163369
There's another theory that the original dragon split in the Relic Castle, it's split decimating the area and turning the surrounding area into a desert (and not a Poké-9/11). Kyurem is launched far off into space where it floats around for a bit, then eventually crashes, forming the Giant Chasm. Or it remained when the dragon split, found its way to where the Giant Chasm would be, fell asleep and was eventually awoken by a meteor.

>>58149261 (OP)
Here's why I think most fossil mons are Rock type.
During the revival process, there were gaps in the DNA that would be filled in with the inorganic rocks. The Galar fossils are all Pokémon fossils forcibly spliced together, which means any gaps in DNA are filled in by the other fossil.

>>58163470
When are we getting the other 12 galar fossilmon?

>>58163265
They are the game lore. It's information the game tells you.

>>58163563
>Every single Aegislash is a king's soul
>Somehow
>Humans in the pokemon world don't go to the afterlife, they just become Yamask if an adult or phantump as a child
>You literally look at Shedja's
>Gigantamax Gengar sends you straight to hell
>Alakazam know everything that has ever occured in the world
>Gardeviore casually makes black holes
>Eevee's face turns human over time
>It is physically impossible for Victini to lose
>9 human wizards fuse together every time a Ninetails is made
>Lunatone have only been on earth for 40 years
>Wartortles live 10,000 years
>Somehow pokemon from ultra space, the moon, and even the avatar of God are descendants of Mew
>the 9 different fire types that are hotter than the sun
>Half of all Mega pokemon melting from the inside out

We can go on and on and on.

>>58163720
Not making logical sense does not mean non-canon, it just means the canon is a mess.

>>58164076
>Victini can't lose
>It does
Not canon from what we see in the game.

>>58159422
Are the Celesticans Jewish or what

>>58163720
>>58164155
Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not canon. You don't get to decide what information is true and what isn't. As far as the games' universe is concerned, not game mechanics, it's all accurate because it's the established in-universe lore. Hate it all you want, it doesn't change.

>>58149261 (OP)
Who wins, Necrozma or Eternatus?

Is there a lore reason why Zacian and Zamazenta can't dynamax?
The games don't say anything from what I can find.

>>58163203
Entei's Pokédex entry is irrefutable. Just as there are many birds from Kanto in LGPE, and later they introduced cousins from Galar.
And there are temples linked to the Regi in several regions, nothing prevents Regigigas from creating several Regirocks; they're just stone. Especially since they had no role except to protect ancient civilizations, except that humans sealed them away for fear of their power.

Oh, and look at this Pokédex description:
>They make a small herd of only several members. They rarely make contact with people or other Pokémon. They disappear if they sense enemies.

And canonically, SnackWorth explains that Legendary Pokémon are very rare Pokémon. Of course, there may be unique ones, but that's not the case for all of them.Entei's Pokédex entry is irrefutable. Just as there are many birds from Kanto in LGPE, and later they introduced cousins from Galar.
And there are temples linked to the Regi in several regions, nothing prevents Regigigas from creating several Regirocks; they're just stone. Especially since they had no role except to protect ancient civilizations, except that humans sealed them away for fear of their power.

Oh, and look at this Pokédex description:
>They make a small herd of only several members. They rarely make contact with people or other Pokémon. They disappear if they sense enemies.

And canonically, Snacksworth explains that Legendary Pokémon are very rare Pokémon. Of course, there may be unique ones, but that's not the case for all of them.

>>58163203
Entei's Pokédex entry is irrefutable. Just as there are many birds from Kanto in LGPE, and later they introduced cousins from Galar.
And there are temples linked to the Regi in several regions, nothing prevents Regigigas from creating several Regirocks; they're just stone. Especially since they had no role except to protect ancient civilizations, except that humans sealed them away for fear of their power.

Oh, and look at this Pokédex description of Latias :
>They make a small herd of only several members. They rarely make contact with people or other Pokémon. They disappear if they sense enemies.

And canonically, Snacksworth explains that Legendary Pokémon are very rare Pokémon. Of course, there may be unique ones, but that's not the case for all of them.

>>58164448
BuT thHe SiNjOh SiGiL eXpLiCiTlY cOnVeYs It HaS threEe ServAnT gOdS iN a teRaLeAk whiCh Is mOrE tHaN 20 yEaRs olD !!!

>>58163369
>>58163386
I thought that the idea was that the Original Dragon fell as a meteorite (the “Grey” or “God Stone”), creating the Giant Chasm. It would wake up and be discovered by the twin heroes. Then it would split into Reshiram and Zekrom, and Kyurem - the husk - returned to the “place where it came from”: the Giant Chasm, where it slumbered for many centuries until it woke up and started terrorizing the people of Lacunosa town.

>>58164661
That's certainly one way to interpret it. Plus it also kinda works with it being a creation dragon.

>>58164397
Nothing mentioned ingame from what I can find.

>>58164397
This is because Dynamax energy, without going through a Trainer and their bracelet, makes the Dynamax Pokemon go out of control.

This has been seen with Gym Leaders' Pokemon. It's also been seen with Perseus, whom Leon arrested.

Similarly, a wolf that experiences Dynamax energy starts to go mad.
It's possible that, since wolves already faced Eternatus 3,000 years ago and are therefore covered in scars, they reject Dynamax energy as if it were antagonistic to them, because it comes from the being they're fighting.

In the same vein, we have Calyrex, who has a blue Dynamax. Blue is the color of Calyrex's psychic powers when he grows carrots or controls a character to speak human language. I suspect it mimics Dynamax energy or controls it with its own psychic powers to keep from going crazy. It's also a Pokemon that was traumatized by Eternatus 3,000 years ago. It supposedly fought him and lost, causing it to lose its original power and become fearful of humans.

Incidentally, I think this is also a way to make Zacian and Zamazenta less powerful.

Here's a thought: legendary pokemon are no different than figures in real world myths. Just because a single chosen individual had a significant roll doesn't mean it was the only one.

How many times does some common animal get a staring role in a myth yet nobody would even think it was the only one? The only important one maybe, sometimes the very first one, but not the only one to exist.

In pokemon we have cases like Alola's totem pokemon, special individuals of common species with great cultural significance. Or the noble pokemon in Hisui where they are literally chosen by arceus to protect the region because their ancestor's proved themselves worthy, and we even see that power pass to a new generation when one of the growlithe pups evolves.

Then there's the mythological creatures. How many different divine dragons show up in Chinese mythology? They're all definitely dragons, nobody's arguing they're different species or that they're secretly all the same dragon because there can only be one. In Norse mythology the first gods killed the ice giant Ymir and used his body to create the new world yet there were still ice giants around in the myths.

There's no reason most legendary pokemon should be any more unique. Why give them shiny forms prior to shiny collecting getting big and marketable if they're not supposed to exist? Why create lore around more existing, like manaphy's dex entries all being about its birth and obtaining the egg in-game rather than an adult that's as old as its legends?

>>58164725
I quite agree, although I think there are a few unique exceptions.

For me, one of the striking examples is Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem. Even though the Original Dragon is multiple, it's too specific an event, requiring the splitting of one being into several, done in a limited way.
Especially since no Pokédex or story description contradicts this. There's even talk of Kyurem having the same DNA as Reshiram and Zekrom, and other origins are never mentioned.

Where: Entei, Latias, Regirock, Articuno, Heatran, Urshifu, Cobalion, etc. Can easily be multiple to an extremely rare degree

>>58164708
Who the fuck is Perseus?

>>58164708
Translation of your post:
>There's quite literally nothing that suggest or indicates any reason for Zacian and Zamazenta not being able to dynamax but here's my headcanon...

All this talk about the legendary beasts because he retard defuses to address >>58161740 otherwise he would have to accept his copypasted bulbapedo text makes no sense and there never was a discrepancy between professor and AI, both agree they come from other timelines

>>58160749
>>58161511
The crystal refraction is a neat way to convey the multitype power and represent alternate worlds. The prime (white) light serves as basis and then the crystal scatters it giving you countless alternative colors, countless worlds, that originate from the same point but diverge thanks to the crystal. Necrozma's crystal body represents the refraction of the universe and Terapagos' crystal body represents the refraction of the timeline.

>>58164914
But how is this headcanon? This is literally what's happening. Have you played Sword and Shield?

>>58164847
Perserker dynamax, sorry

>>58165047
I have played Sword and Shield and there's nothing ever explaining why the wolves can't dynamax, yes, that's why I know you are resorting to your headcanon.

>>58151780
i think that the sigil has changed with the introduction of new legendaries and regigigas is no longer part of it.

>>58165058
I think that's hopium/copium from unovatards desperately trying to tie their nu-gen shit to PokéJapan, than any actual shift in mindset from Game Freak. There's also the fact Enamourus can only be encountered when the three others are caught, much like Gigas is only available after bringing Regirock, Regice and Registeel before it, indicating Enamourus is the ACTUAL Trio Master of the Forces of Nature.

>>58165057

Yet the postgame with Shielbert and Sordward does. Zacian and Zamazente reject the Galarion because it makes them out of control (and if you're at all logical, you should know that Eternatus is their enemy, so of course they oppose it; it's not like they fought it with the player, but also 3,000 years ago).

And we actually see the Gym Leaders' Dynamaxed Pokemon go crazy when they end up Dynamaxed by Shielbert and Sordward's Galarion.

>>58165058
A very arbitrary fan update. Do you seriously think we're going to follow your headcanon as truth?

>>58165058
>I’ll explain why I removed the birds later
Doesn’t explain
>I wanted these 4 in but couldn’t find an organic way to incorporate them so just shoved them all into one spot with an asterisk
Holy fuck, even the “regigigas is one of the giants” has more convincing arguments than this arbitrary garbage

>>58165058
Absolute trash. Pmyth5.2 AUSU perfectly explains all the pokemon that are where they are.
The lake Guardians all watch over the opposite of their meanings
Rayquaza has the 3 Supporting Gods of Quakes, Waves, and Winds because it is the superior of the weather trio
Latios, Latias, and Metagross are all supporting Gods of Kyogre because they are all products of atlantis
Garchomp, "sand" and some other pokemon are all Supporting Gods of Groudon because they are products of underground civilizations in the beta data.

In the end we never got the 2 other pokemon to support Garchomp, so it is questionable who is with them in the sigil, as we know gamefreak did do one more update to it since the beta doc that added Giratina. One obvious one is Heatran but who the other would have been could be a pokemon lost to time.

>>58165058
Please accept my updated headcanon!

I'm right and you're wrong, even if you don't understand everything, remember that it comes from Lame Freak's Peraleak!!!

>>58165401
Darkrai - Garchomp - Cresselia
or
Heatran - Garchomp - Cresselia

imo

>>58165058
why would you take away a trio with a leader from a 4 circle spot and substitute it with a trio without one?

>>58165161
Frenchcuck... Every fucking pokemon and person is Eternatus' enemy and they still use dynamax. There's no reason for them to not have dynamax states.

>>58165663
As a reminder, wolves have:
- a signature move that doubles their damage when Dynamaxed
- a legend that mentions a fight against Eternatus 3,000 years ago
- they are awakened from their slumber specifically to help the player defeat Eternatus again
- acquire a form that adds the Steel type just to better resist him

Wolves have a common past with him; they've already faced him and are built to fight him, counter his energy and side effects.
So yes, it's normal that they don't want to use their enemies' power, because that's specifically what they're fighting.

Are you doing it on purpose to be stupid?

>>58165663
As a reminder, wolves have:
- a signature move that doubles their damage against Dynamaxed Pokemon
- a legend that mentions a fight against Eternatus 3,000 years ago
- they are awakened from their slumber specifically to help the player defeat Eternatus again
- acquire a form that adds the Steel type just to better resist him

Wolves have a common past with him; they've already faced him and are built to fight him, counter his energy and side effects.
So yes, it's normal that they don't want to use their enemies' power, because that's specifically what they're fighting.

Are you doing it on purpose to be stupid?
Not all Pokémon have this history or characteristics. Use common sense.

>>58165467
>Ultranecrozma
>Miraidon
>Koraidon
Motherfuckers aren't even from this universe what are you talking about?

Why would the weather trio be under the moon and the life-death trio be under the sun?

Zamazenta and Zacian aren't even divine beings, they are just heroes.

>>58165771
Koraidon comes from the distant past, and Miraidon from the distant future.

The Blinding One's (Ultra Necrozma) light transcended dimensions until it reached ours. It is a multiversal constant that has a place in all universes. Furthermore, its crystals change the type of Arceus, establishing a connection.

The sun because Zygarde absorbs sunlight to feed itself. The sun is often associated with life, but also because UV rays are dangerous and deadly.

As for the moon, because it partially protects Earth from meteorites with its gravity, just as Rayquaza would, it lowers and raises the water level of Kyogre. And because the moon was formed from pieces of Earth, it's linked to Groudon.

Regarding Zacian and Zamazenta, it's because they are also kings; they gained divine power to face Eternatus. Moreover, the old diagram already showed anomalies like Deoxys, Gyarados, Metagross, etc.

Obviously, my image is just of the troll who just gathers the major legendaries. Only the explanation of Necrozma and -Aidon are relevant. The rest about the moon, the sun or the wolves, I exaggerate to the extreme by inventing.

>>58165820
>Koraidon comes from the distant past, and Miraidon from the distant future.
alternate
>The sun because Zygarde absorbs sunlight to feed itself.
Anime only, never stated or shown in games.
>moon, because it partially protects Earth from meteorites with its gravity,
Just lmao
>they gained divine power to face Eternatu
No they are just strong pokemon, never stated they got divine powers

>Gyrados
Explained in pmyth 5.2 AUSU, their species were created from the physical manifestation of waves caused by Kyogre. Metagross is Atlantis tech along with the aon duo who in the original script were aligned with atlantis too (and are directly in the movies)

>Deoxys
He and Jirachi represent the expanse of space together. Mew and celebi are evolution. Shaymin and Manaphy are fertility.

Either way, shit headcanon anon. try again.

>>58165467
Here's mine
May or may not include terapagoes.

>>58165854
Not necessarily alternate. This has already been discussed above, so I won't dwell on it.

As for the rest, it's trolling. I say it myself, it's trolling and headcanon; you're stating the obvious.

>>58165710
Frenchcuck, nothing you said (nothing you can possibly say, in fact) is an explanation. Solgaleo and Lunala were raped by Necrozma and still can use Z moves. Eternatus and the wolves can become friends in your team. You can fucking have them playing ball, and the wolves still can't use dynamax
You just headcanon that since they had beef in the past they will never use dynamax, ever. And that's fine, but it's just your theory (your headcanon) because the game never alludes to anything like that and they just can't use dyanamax because.

>>58165820
>>58166084
>>58166084
>Koraidon comes from the distant past, and Miraidon from the distant future.
>This has already been discussed above
Yeah you read your bulbapedia summary is wrong and based on a mistranslation and decided to ignore it to keep pushing your failed headcanon.

>>58166122
It's the alternate timeline that's a poor translation. As already mentioned, the DLC is managed by other teams who didn't manage the main story, especially the translation, which only covers the texts they have to translate.

In the base game, there's a whole context explaining what the Paradoxmon are, how the time machine works, and so on. This allows for easy context and understanding of how to properly translate the game; there's no room for doubt.
This isn't the case with the DLC, which uses the phrase with an ambiguous meaning in Japanese without any real context in the dialogue, which is based on speculation.

If it were the base game that was poorly translated, the anime and the cards would say it came from an alternate past/future or other timelines. However, they never do this because it's clearly a distant past/future compared to the present, as the game insists.

Even the names of the legendaries are extremely transparent about their origin: "Korai" and "Mirai".

>>58162875
>It's said that the author was inspired by the Pokémon (plural) he saw in Aera Zero to design it.
Then it was obviously the beast paradox trio, you're thinking too hard

>>58166093
Necrozma and Solgaleo/Lunala aren't originally enemies.
It's only since The Blinding One was broken and started hunting them to absorb light, given that they share the same light energy and ability to open Ultra Whormholes, that they've become enemies.

Damn it, just because they can be on the same team or play ball together doesn't change their lore.

There's a difference between the game mechanics and what the story tells.

Well, if while playing the game you can't figure out that Zamazenta/Zacian reject Dynamax energy and start going crazy when one of them absorbs it, I can't help you anymore, because that's literally what happens in the games.

I guess you must be trolling.

>>58166153
>It's the alternate timeline that's a poor translation
Stopped reading here. "As already mentioned" the dialogue from the base game makes sense with both translations. The dialogue from the DLC only makes sense with one.
Guess which one makes sense in both instances? That's right, the one that makes you seeth and redditspace all over the place.

You lost.

>>58166187
>well if you can't figure out...
Thanks for proving your conclusion is literally a theory because the game never ever says a single thing about it, frenchcuck.

>>58166122
Bro literally said he made >>58165467 to make fun of >>58165058's nonsense. Chill.

It was pretty clear from the initial post where he:
>explicitly said headcanon
>named the file my_headcanon_updated
>proceeded to say he's right everyone else is wrong
>said it came from an imaginary source that is a clear bastardization of the real source
Everyone else itt got it given you're the only one having a fit about it. If that didn't immediately come off as sarcasm then either you didn't read the post and immediately started seething at the sight of something made up, or you have no understanding of tone and should probably take a literature class.

Oh great the snail eater who still refuses to accept he was wrong about SV (I remember you from other thread yes) is also a galashit apologist
You can't make this shit up

>>58166219
wait I remember now what did he say the last time to out himself as a frenchie? The french name of a professor or something? I swear I've seen this guy make the same arguments before

>>58166219
I understand that when you can't win your debates, you have to be aggressive, denigrating, and racist. You like to waste my time looking for screenshots (anyway, that's all you have to do).

However, we clearly see that Zacian is covered in a Dynamax particle aura; it was Sodward who did it, and he says so clearly.
Zacian is suffering; it's making him aggressive. He needs to be calmed to regain his senses, and that's what we're asked to do.

Sodward and Shieldbert are part of the royal line. However, we discover as the story progresses that wolves were erased from mythology to make human kings appear.
So, they want to use Dynamax particles to drive the wolves mad, so that they show that they aren't true royal heroes, but rather dangerous creatures.

This helps explain why they can't use Dynamax.
So yes, they reject Dynamax because they don't want it.

Next time, finish a game completely before speaking.

>>58166263
>him
>his
Retarded frenchie didn't even play the game

>All these rambles about uniqueness or volcano creations or whatever

Legendary/Mythic eggs. Either from HGSS event, Manaphy and to a lesser means dex entries like Latias or even the anime (baby Lugia). Wish one game explored eggs as their excuse for the "legendary collecthaton" even if it is not settled as THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH of new legends spawning. Different specific sidequests for each would be neat to increase their lore but probably too much effort for the legendary avalanche of a given game

>>58166274
If you're talking about Zacian being considered Zamazenta's older sister, I'm aware of that.

Can you stop deflecting the topic with pointless nonsense?
Yes, my English isn't perfect, but the fact remains that I know the games better than you do in your own language.

>>58166235
Here, he exposed himself by calling the Ultra Beasts "Ultra-Brèche"
arch.b4k.dev/vp/thread/58000274

>>58166287
And we don't give a damn? Whether I'm French, Spanish, American, or whatever is irrelevant.
You're truly lost.

>>58166263
>no dude I swear my headcanon makes so much sense it's no longer headcanon!
Not how it works, frog. Your pic isn't even supporting your headcanon btw, because all pokemon that go berserker would rather stay in control and dynamaxing with their trainers wouldn't make them run wild, meaning Zacian and Zamazenta's lack of dynamax can't be excused with that scene.

>>58166296
Just find it funny you are the same retard using the same debunked arguments and doxxing yourself in the same way and on top of being idiotically wrong about SV you are a galashit apologist
No wonder your wars end like that

>>58166300
I'm aware that the phenomenon is perfectly controlled by a trainer using aloof technology. I said so!

But that doesn't change their aversion to Dynamax energy and the fact that Eternatus is its source, aka the Pokémon they must defeat every time it awakens.
The only Pokémon with a history of Eternatus have an atypical reaction to this energy. Ask yourself the right questions.

>>58166307
You were the one who was debunked. It's time to acknowledge your failures, instead of repeating the same flawed arguments over and over again.

>>58166313
>that doesn't change something I made up to explain what the game never addresses!
lmao
Also Calyrex also has a history with Eternatus, and it's worse, he got fucking trauma from him. And he still dynamaxes. Dumb frog

>>58166332
Except Calyrex's Dynamax is blue, not red; it has the same colors as his psychic powers.
Once again, you're making dishonest shortcuts.

>>58166319
>no no no you were the one debunked
Sorry snaileater, out of the two possible translations, "alternative timelines" is the only one that makes sense in The Indigo Disk, so it can't be the mistranslation. You lost hard. You always lose.
Must be a french thing

>>58166345
That's what you said and it's not really true.

>>58166348
>the professor confirms terastal energy can affect other timelines, not just the same one in the past or the future, by saying their time and ours may not even be connected at all
>the professor confirms to have a child but not a working time machine, while the professor of our world got the machine working first (we know this because they got Koraidon/Miraidon at same time Arven was born)
>the professor gets to know where exactly they are located during the event, instead of being unsure and having to make their own guesses like we read in their Zero underdepths journal
>the professor loses the book that fueled their obsession and decides to go back with their child like a decent parent, completely different from the professor of our world
"Paradox pokemon are pokemon from different points of the timeline" is a translation that may make sense in the base game, but not here, the extra context debunks that possibility entirely, terastal affects other timelines, not our own.
>inb4 no wait the professor is wrong and the AI is right and the journals are wrong and they conveniently forgot things and got another book with the same childish handwriting and never decided to go back with their child and became the shitty parent it was in our world anyway haha
Not interested in your coping, can it.

>>58166343
>-the only pokemon with history with Eternatus don't dynamax, that means the game explains they just don't want to use dynamax!
>+It doesn't and they aren't the only pokemon
>-OKAY BUT THE OTHER'S GUY DYNAMAX IS BLUE YOU ARE DISHONEST
Least delusional frog eater be like

>>58166383
The guy who's going to discover that time travel can result in the creation of a new timeline. Take heart, you'll make it.

>>58166398
I said :
>The only Pokémon with a history of Eternatus have an ATYPICAL REACTION to this energy. Ask yourself the right questions.

You said pretending that I said it:
>-the only pokemon with history with Eternatus don't dynamax, that means the game explains THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO USE DYNAMAX!

I never claimed that Calyrex couldn't Dynamax.

Moreover, you'll note that Calyrex is the only one of the three not to possess any specific characteristics to defeat Eternatus or the Dynamax phenomenon (i.e., no magical armor that allows it to double damage on Dynamax and become resistant to Eternatus types).

Last I heard, a blue Dynamax is an "atypical reaction" as I mentioned in my post.

And not wanting to Dynamax is also an atypical reaction. It concerns a minority of Pokémon (2) not counting Eternatus and its Eternamax

With that, I'll leave you. I've wasted enough time on you two for today.

>>58166462
The professor we meet has a different background than the one from our world even before we meet them so there's no changing the past, you interact with an entirely different timeline altogether

This has been a good lore thread. Have a Regigigas.

>>58166495
>I was talking about being able to dynamax but blue, that counts as the same thing as the dogs that can't dynamax at all right?
Nope. And you are still out of your mind trying to justify your headcanon.
Nowhere in the game is ever said Zacian and Zamazenta choose to not dynamax ever, under any circumstance, due to their personal beef with the pokemon you can even make them befriend. You choose you see it that way and that's nice, but you have to understand your headcanon isn't in the game, frenchtard.

Let me say that this has already been established that ancient versions of legendary beasts does exist in the past in the same manner of wooly mammoths and elephants; they're not related at all outside of possibly Ho-oh gave the fallen Pokémon the form akin to said ancients. It also possible that the Time machine accidentally dropped said paradoxmons to Heath's time period. The only instance of alternate timelimes is you exchanging books with the professor, and even then that could easily wave away as a time paradox.

>>58150163
They probably won't because they'd like to leave things unclear, but I'd love a Pokémon equivalent to Hyrule Historia.

>>58166906
>it has been established
Never happened
>time machine accidentally dropped them in Heath time!
Has been a while since I read that absurd cope from you retards. Are you gonna say "Penny will get the machine working again!" too?
>but LE paradox
Not how a bootstrap time paradox works, retard.

>>58165055
Ahh. I was about to say, how the fuck could I have missed a whole ass character.

>>58167006
The point is that both Paradox Pokémon are monsters from the past and future, simple as that. The monsters of the present simply have body plans similar to those paradoxes as toedstool and wigglet already demonstrated.

>>58149261 (OP)
>Jirachi awakened a few years ago when Archie was a kid
>Every 1000 years Jirachi awakens
>1000 years ago a gigant meteorite almost destroyed the earth
>"People got to their knees and wished to a rainbow stone that fell from the sky"
Jirachi gave the power to mega evolve to Rayquaza

>>58167024
>The point is that I dont' care how many evidence it has been presented I refused to admit I'm wrong and the indigo disk is right
lmao

>>58162179
There's a set of beasts in Fiore, with a sealed Entei in ancient ruins. Ho-oh isn't the origin of them dude.

>>58167089
Nobody cares about your non canon spin off, and even if it was canon those beasts could be the same you see in Johto

>>58167110
>Nobody cares about your non canon spin off
Ranger Net Pokemon are explicitly stated to come from the Ranger Union, actually. They're no less canon than Orre at the moment.
>Those beasts could be the same you see in Johto
Why would the Entei from the Burned Tower be in the middle of some jungle ruins on an entirely separate island far from Johto, sealed away in stone? How does this work when there's a separate ruin in Oblivia with its own Entei that is regularly called upon via Guardian Signs, during a timeframe that should take place during the exact same time the Burned Tower Entei should ALSO be active (HGSS)? Additionally, how does this work out when there's a Shadow Entei and Sevii Entei active 3 years prior to the events of the Johto games?

>>58167155
>they're no less canon than [another non-canon spin-off]
What?
>making up time frames so they can't be the same individuals
lmao
>non-canon bonus legendaries
Do you think there are many Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem just because you can catch them in SV when they should belong to Hilbert and Nate canonically, dumbass?

>>58167249
>What?
Orre's on a map in ORAS, the flags showing that Pokemon are from Orre have never been deprecated, and GF went out of their way to add titles for purified Pokemon and Mt. Battle victors instead of just folding the latter into Battle Facility ribbons. They're no less canon that Professor Willow and GO are (see Meltan).
>making up time frames
No actually, I'm applying common sense since they're all presented as concurrent with the relevant mainlines of their release.

But sure, let's say that's a bit much. Explain how the hell the Burned Tower Entei (that is explicitly 150 years old) managed to be tied to the ancient Jungle Relic of Summerland (where it has somehow become stone) and a specific Involith (i.e. region specific phenomena) on Mitonga Island in Oblivia, both of which are old as fuck stone ruins that clearly predate the Brass Tower getting torched. Alternatively explain how Entei (who is apparently a singular Entei), managed to be in Johto while also being owned by Anabel, Evelyn and Argenta, the latter of which has one in the very same region there is one roaming.
>Do you think there are many Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem just because you can catch them in SV when they should belong to Hilbert and Nate canonically, dumbass?
It's extremely disingenuous for equating the Tao Trio to the Legendary Beasts, who have never been shown as singular Pokemon across any continuity. Also yes since all of Snackworth's other mentions are plural, blame it on Terapagos timespace bullshit or a second convenient Kyurem meteor idgaf.

I can't believe I'm saying this but with the amount of fucking shit ITT i'm starting to think the Regignosis anon is sane.

>>58167992
Yessss. Come to the Regignosis side.

>>58166627
Even if that were true, it doesn't change anything.
The AI works with Terastal; it doesn't do anything related to type changes or anything that alters dimensions. Because Tera simply powers a technology with its own functions.

Here, we have a time machine, so it travels through time, as it is.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have that name, and the explanations wouldn't go in that direction.

It's like Dynamax energy, which powers all Galar, even though that's not the primary function of the machine. It's the same with the infinite energy that powers submarines, rockets, etc.

>>58166790
What's getting tiresome with you is that you twist everything I've said.
I never said it was exactly the same for Calyrex and the wolves. It's simply that all the Legendaries who share a past with Eternatus and have fought him have an atypical reaction to Dynamax energy because it comes from him.

Atypical reaction = means that what happens to them with this energy isn't like it happens to all other Pokémon, which is the norm. This makes them exceptions!

This isn't headcanon; we explicitly see the wolves rejecting this energy. Shieldbert and Sodward didn't ask for their consent; they force them to do it, it's done under duress, and they suffer for it.

Whether you like it or not, Zacian and Zamazenta are Pokémon whose role is to undo Dynamax and its source. They have the powers to do it and were made for it. As beings who have been dealing with this phenomenon for at least 3,000 years, they are aware of what this energy is.

But who cares, we can make them play ball together at a campsite; that's not part of the story.
Hell, we can make Regirock eat curry when he doesn't even have a mouth, and he's just stone with no organs, meaning he lacks a heart and a brain and he even has emotions !

Distinguish between game mechanics that apply to everyone and what the story tells.
Groudon is supposed to be able to sleep in magma, but type affinities and weather conditions cause it to take pretty severe damage from fire. Or a Pokémon like Dialga can lose to a Pokémon like Chimchar if the level gap is too great. None of this is story-relevant; the same goes for camping.

Now stop pretending to be stupid.

>>58165854
>>moon, because it partially protects Earth from meteorites with its gravity,

We could technically say that since Rayquaza embodies the heavens and tends to go into space, the connection with the moon we see when looking at the sky and which is in space is acceptable.

I like the idea of Miraidon/Koraidon being on the side of the XYZ trio. It makes a connection with genetic evolution.
Or Zacian/Zamazenta on the side of the weather trio, when one can cross a mountain with its charge (earth) and the other cut the sea in two (oceans).

>>58165854
>>moon, because it partially protects Earth from meteorites with its gravity,

We could technically say that since Rayquaza embodies the sky/ozone and tends to go into space, the connection with the moon we see when looking at the sky and which is in space is acceptable.

I like the idea of Miraidon/Koraidon being on the side of the XYZ trio. It makes a connection with genetic evolution.
Or Zacian/Zamazenta on the side of the weather trio, when one can cross a mountain with its charge (earth) and the other cut the sea in two (oceans).

>>58167704
>serebii map reference makes Orre canon
>your headcanon is canon because "it makes sense!"
>even more made up timeframes for his non-canon spin-off
>actually defeding there are multiple tao trios
KEK

>>58168961
>okay it's true you meet someone from another timeline thanks to the power of tera but even if that were true, tera doesn't involve another timelines, why would a machine that messes with different timelines have "time" in its name huh? huh?
Most intelligent timecuck

>>58149692
Birthly = Manaphy
Smilay = Shaymin
Saan = Cresselia
Dahabu = Darkrai (originally planned to be a roamer which would have made it and Cresselia similar to Latias/Latios)
Gordon = Garchomp or Heatran (if Heatran was originally supposed to be a second pseudolegend like Metagross, a somewhat popular theory)

>>58169866
Sand and Dahubu aren't necessarily confirmed to be the same here.

"Saan" uses the same characters for japanese phonetics of "Sand"
ダーブ or "Daarb" isn't necessarily darkrai either. Its the phonetic way to say "Dave" so its a complete filler name similar to how Regigigas was called "Tex"

The implication would be that all 3 of these names were early beta names (because remember, this render is before they even made Giratina) but granted they are in the domain of the Earth Notice that Heatran, Regigigas, and Giratina are all together in the pokedex entry sheets from the development (as well as the final pokedex)

This implies there was a shift in development which is where these 3 came in, potentially scraping the original 3 "underground civilization" mon under Groudon.

Note this is a thread about the Pmyth5.2 and nothing else. Thus far it's considered a basis of the overall lore of the Pokémon world.

>>58171517
Lets clarify that it is the basis of all pre-Unova lore and only loosely inspired the lore of X/Y.
Unova with the Tao Trio and the 4 Therians (counting Enamorus) don't seem to anywhere in the pmyth5.2 AUSU documentation.
Granted that X/Y opened up the multiverse, its hard to assess the lore from there.
Alola literally goes across the universe and into different dimensions, Galar is its own self-contained story about Eternatus, and Paldea is the worst with both the non-sense that is the terastalization phenomena and multiple parallel timelines.
Legends Arceus reinforces pmyth5.2 AUSU a lot but its hard to contend how it relates post Ultimate Weapon timeline split.

>>58171517
>>58171732
Can't you retards share this "pmyth5.2 AUSU"?

>>58172137
https://tcrf.net/Development:Pok%C3%A9mon_Diamond_and_Pearl/Documents#pmyth05.2.doc

>>58171732
Seems to me that it aims to expand this in PLZA.

>>58171732
ORAS episode delta brought up the multiverse, only in passing as an example of why using link technology on an asteroid is a bad idea.

>>58172307
but the issue is the story is quite deviated in X/Y from the pmyth.
In X and Y the Tree of Life exists through Xerneas but they don't explicitly say that Yveltal was the roots of the same tree draining the earth of resources.
And while Zygarde is quite obviously a nod to nidhogg, the one who stops the world tree in norse mythology, it is the weather Trio that break apart the overgrowing tree of life in the pmyth, so we don't really know where they are going exactly with Zygarde.
All of this even more confounding when you consider mega zygarde somehow being the ultimate weapon.

>>58172327
but we know its a multiverse because of the rainbow Rocket episode. Everyone except for Lysandre is from the universe where there is no mega evolution, i.e. the non-ultimate weapon timeline(and the original 5 games).

>>58172396
actually, they all came from universes where the player protagonists (like Red and Hilbert) doesn't exist.

>>58172157
>Year later
>Half of the docs still haven't been translate.
Wild.

>>58154297
>I wonder why Rayquaza didn't stop the Eternatus meteorite, when that's his role.

Rayquaza did. Fug left it be thinking its been dealt with like how fug stop attacking Deoyx when they become a rock in the movie and the game which you find a lv30 instead of 80 in ORAS

>>58172877
The issue with community volunteer projects. A lot of the early manpower is gonna disappear the moment people get bored or something else comes up, most people just want to be spoonfed in the first place, the leak was huge so it's a lot of drive space and time to commit to download and sort through everything to find stuff, and when you're trying to get quality work done without relying on machine translation for accuracy that significantly narrows the pool of useful volunteers. Add to that TPC saying they're going after the leakers and that's gonna scare off more people from wanting to get involved even if there's no reason they'd be in any trouble themselves, and the leaks aren't going to reach a significantly wider audience than they already have because it's out of the news cycle.

>>58152249
>Arceus literally says "Take a fraction of my power" and gives you an Arceus. Ergo it is stated and shown on screen that Arceus the pokemon is not the true complete form of "Sinnoh Almighty."
Of course not.
Arceus is one of it's explicitly mentioned 1000 arms

>>58155967
>Tex refers to Regigigas.
Anyone got art of regigigas in a cowboy hat?

>>58160481
goddamn, this chart is worse than D&D's multiverse.

>>58161511
>>Necrozma fucks up space to give us aliens
>>Terapagos fucks up time to give us paradoxes

Mega Evolution and Gigantomax are fucking up the time and space of individual pokemon in a way.

>inb4 mega aren't a time thing
explain roaring moon and iron valiant. the two paradoxes that have megas their megas bear a resemblance.

>>58165058
>celebi has no connection to dialga
>hoopa has no connection to palkia

you serious nigga?

>>58167081
makes some sense.

>>58173226
DnD has a multiverse? How does that one work?

>>58173226
Cryptids being based on super forms of pokemon doesn't mean said super forms mess with time however mega evolution's power seems to affect the fabric of space-time, according to ORAS it's this fuckery what allows the draconids to check on other timelines, so the energy of megaevolution itself does let you peek at different times, and Eternatus shows dynamax energy lets you peek at different spaces too so yeah in way we have megas and the crystal god of alt times messing up with time and dyna and the crystal god of alt spaces messing up with space

>>58173110
But day after day we find more stuff from the small handful of autists like OP piecing together the stuff that is implemented into the games.
What other documents besides PMyth5.2"AUSU" are still living documents with Gamefreak?

>>58173981
>Dialga, tera and mega are cooler than Palkia, Z and dyna
Checks out

>>58160765
https://arceus-sokuho.com/archives/23556415.html

Literally all of Japan thinks Regignosis is canon.

>>58174570
>random japanese article
>"See? LITERALLY the entirety of this country agrees with me!"
Way to prove him right

>>58174611
Read the comments dumbass on the article dumbass.

>>58174708
>the comments dumbass on the article dumbass
Okay you are 12 that explains a lot

>>58174712
Arceus-sokuho is literally the first-hand pokemon Japanese leak website like Serebii, its not fringe. Whats more, dozens of people in their comment section all post about the proposed battle between Arceus and Regigigas as a matter of fact.
The deeper you go into the Japanese Pokemon community, the more you realize that Regignosis is more fact than fiction to them.

>>58174799
>no you see, the moonrune equivalent to serebii has many fans sharing my headcanon!
fucking kek you are just making it worse

>>58149725
Another thing that helps to correspond with dead giants from the cosmic egg being the plates is the fact that in all of the anime appearances they appear in the shape of traditional japanese coffins.

>>58174885
Its a weird discrepancy that they are coffins in the anime but just squares of stone in the games/manga.

>>58174943
Almost as if game lore ignores whatever retarded shit they spewed out on-screen in non-canon content.

>>58175637
But I mean they made the Arceus anime mini-series for Arceus Legends just 3 years ago and were still using the coffin shape for the plate designs.