Thread 58161384

You know, I'm really tired of this shit.
Venemoth (aka our current Butterfree) IS the evo of Venonat.
And Butterfree (aka our current Venmoth) IS the evo of Caterpie and Metapod.

It's not just some retarded baseless theory to me, it's fact and yet the only thing I can't wrap my head around is why this has never been rectified. Failing that for whatever reason, why has the designer never corrected the record even without fixing it?

This is fucking undeniable, how did we just let it go and continue the lie for 25 years? Why is this still considered a 'fringe theory'? Is this some fucking sort of psyop? Like the emperor not wearing any clothes and we're all just supposed to pretend we don't see what we are clearly seeing?

>>58161384 (OP)
What is there to be done about it? These characters are almost 30 years old now

>>58161384 (OP)
I have this [shitty theory] fatigue

The beta backsprites prove that evos were moved around, but Butterfree/Venomoth were always seperate.

>>58161729
>The beta backsprites prove that evos were moved around
???

>>58161729
Do you mean the evos were indeed switched but the names of the evos were the same?
Because that's just as confusing.
So we had VenoNAT that evolved into Butterfree but Metapod evolves in VenoMOTH?
I would have thought the names would have had to be switched too

>>58161729
>>58161750
Not moved around, they were designed in the order they were implemented and then removed if they weren't going to be used and left gaps in the code for MissingNo. to exist. If you know a little bit about programming this is easier to do than actually swapping the code, but also leaves a lot of vacant data that adds to file size despite being unused garbage data. The reason for this is because when you're programming you need to have all data refer to a specific slot, it's not as easy as just programming something and then dumping it in a separate slot. That's why it took until RS to organize the Index by National Dex order, back in GS instead of making new slots they filled old, empty slots

>>58161759
Look at their JP names anon, nobody gives a fuck about localization fanfiction when discussing the relevancy of the design process

>Caterpie/Trancel/Butterfree
>Konpan/Morphon

"Venonat" was designed first, then Venomoth, then the entire Caterpie line in order next to each other. There weren't many lines in RG that are as clean cut as Caterpie. My personal pet theory is instead of Venonat intending to evolve into Butterfree, Caterpie/Metapod were designed to evolve into Venomonth but someone inserted a new butterfly evolution and that stuck while later in development they decided to combine Venonat/Moth to consolidate the dex and played up the mystery in the dex entries (like the JP only book)

Alternatively people are seeing shit that was never there like the Ilima/Mina type specialist swap (the characters that were swapped were Molayne and Dexio)

>>58161759
Bro that's literally just English localization that happened long after

The names are Morphon(Venomoth JP), Butterfree

Morphon actually fits metapod's evolution better as in morphing/metamorphosis

>>58161796
>Trancel
>Trans/Incel
Lol.

They needed a cooler mon to be Caterpie's evolution which is likely new players first experience with evolution ever. Butterfree has a cute/cool mothra-like appeal with the compound eyes and mandibles. go look at Venomoth of sprite, it's lame and derpy. Imagine the disappointment of kids putting in the work of training the cocoon only to end up with that

>>58161796
>like the Ilima/Mina type specialist swap
Bullshit. Now that one you'll never convince me is fake.

>>58161823
Just because Ilima looks like a faggot and Mina is an artist doesn't mean they were swapped

>■キャプテン7:その1 プリンスにしてマニア
>陸ライドの達人。のちにノーマルジムリーダーになる。
>名称:イリマ
>アオイ科の植物。
>イリマは、もっとも高貴なレイフラワーの一つであり、ハワイの人々にとって、とても馴染みの深い花。色は黄色。

>Captain 7: Part 1 - Prince and Maniac
>A master of land riding. Later becomes a Normal Gym Leader.
>Name: Ilima
>A plant of the mallow family.
>Ilima is one of the most noble lei flowers, and is very familiar to the people of Hawaii. Its color is yellow.

>■キャプテン7:その7 妖精画家
>ポケファインダー(ポケモンスナップ)に精通する。のちのフェアリージムリーダーになる可能性がある。
>●名称:マツリカ
>茉莉花。モクセイ科ソケイ属(ジャスミン、素馨)の1種の常緑半蔓性灌木。ハワイ語ではピカケ

>Captain 7: Part 7 - Fairy Painter
>Proficient in PokéFinder (Pokémon Snap). Potential to become a future Fairy Gym Leader.
>Name: Matsurika (Mina)
>Matsurika. An evergreen, semi-creeping shrub of the Oleaceae family, genus >Jasmine (Jasmine, Soka). In Hawaiian, it's called pikake.

>>58161384 (OP)
I always found the proposed connections between Venomoth and Caterpie/Metapod to be incredibly tenuous. The horns and eyes don't look similar at all and the abdomen is the biggest stretch of all time. However the similarities between Venonat and Butterfree are undeniable, but given what >>58161796
said I find it more likely to just be a case of similar design philosophy rather than any actual swap happening.

I mean, gen 1 has a fuckload of repeated design elements. We have 3 different lines of pink blob Pokemon, 4 if you add Lickitung. 3 separate lines where the evolution is just adding new heads (Dugtrio/Weezing/Dodrio), Nidoking and Nidoqueen just being Rhydon but with gender, etc. And we know that we almost had two entirely seperate Water turtle lines before the original Wartortle evo was cut and replaced by Blastoise.

>>58161384 (OP)
It's pure retardation and I'm sick of people pushing this absolute redditry for years. Lets go through this point by point.
>muh horns
Retarded. They look nothing alike in the first place. On a caterpillar that's an organ that smells bad and resembles a snake's tongue to frighten predators. On venomoth they're just fuckin' horns.
>muh eyes
Retardation part 1 Caterpie to Venomoth: What the fuck is wrong with you? They are not even remotely similar in any way you faceblind autistic fuck.
Retardation part 2 Venonat to Butterfree
Literally just generic cartoon bug eyes. Not the same shape. Not the same color. Retarded.
>muh... body texture?
So retarded I'm not even sure what you're trying to compare. Bitch they're bugs they have segmented bodies.
>muh antennae
That's what antenna look like fuckface. If venomoth had them they would be similar. Different colors. Different shapes. Retarded.
>muh hands
Literally the only thing they have in common and they're just stylized lo-fi cartoon hands. Not the same color. Bravo retard.
>muh feet
Nigga are you for real. One has ninja tabi and the other has generic cartoon elf shoes. Different colors. Completely different shapes. Fucking retarded. This whole shit is retarded.

>>58161796
>it took until RS to organize the Index by National Dex order
Even in RS, the new pokemon aren’t perfectly in index order. It’s much more similar than gens 1/2, but there’s a few oddities such as Chimecho being at the very end of the index after even the legendaries

>>58161384 (OP)
This is zodiac levels of retatded.

>>58161865
>Retardation part 2 Venonat to Butterfree
>Literally just generic cartoon bug eyes. Not the same shape. Not the same color. Retarded.
They are very nearly the same shape and colour and no other Bug type in the entire series has eyes like them.
>That's what antenna look like fuckface. If venomoth had them they would be similar. Different colors. Different shapes. Retarded.
Yeah and Venomoth doesn't have them. Nor does any other bug in gen 1 except Beedrill and they look completely different. That's the point, it's a feature that only Venonat and Butterfree share.
>Literally the only thing they have in common and they're just stylized lo-fi cartoon hands. Not the same color. Bravo retard.
And yet nothing else in Gen 1 and as far as I can recall the entire series has hands like that. Again, it's a feature only Venonat and Butterfree share.
>Nigga are you for real. One has ninja tabi and the other has generic cartoon elf shoes. Different colors. Completely different shapes. Fucking retarded. This whole shit is retarded.
They're not as close a match as the other parts but they are still very similar.
You also missed the fact that Venonat and Butterfree have nearly identical mouths.


I don't believe in the swap theory myself (there are other reasons to explain design similarities, and as you correctly pointed out Venomoth doesn't really have anything to do with Caterpie or Metapod) but you are just being willfully ignorant to ignore how obviously similar Venonat and Butterfree are. You make the no swap side look like fucking idiots by pretending they're actually totally different.

>>58161915
>You also missed the fact that Venonat and Butterfree have nearly identical mouths.
Do you mean the mandibles that insects have and which Venomoth also has, retard? I notice none of you fuckwits ever notice Venonats longer tufts of head fur that ACTUALLY match up with Venomoth's horns.

>>58161936
You are operating with the modern artwork in mind. The og sprites predate the artwork. Sugimori reconned some little fangs and a fuzzyeaque abdomen for Venomoth which the original sprites do not have at all. Venonat and Venomoth have literally NOTHING in common, not a single trait. Venonat and Butterfree are the same pokemon except one has wings

>>58161936
>Do you mean the mandibles that insects have and which Venomoth also has, retard
Venomoth has the fangs but not the nose/mouth part. And again, no other bug type in the entire series has a mouth like this. It is a feature that only Butterfree and Venonat share, just like the eyes and hands.
>I notice none of you fuckwits ever notice Venonats longer tufts of head fur that ACTUALLY match up with Venomoth's horns.
I already said I don't think they were swapped. All I'm saying is that Venonat and Butterfree obviously share a fuckload of design elements and you're a retard for pretending they don't. Saying "generic cartoon bug eyes" is meaningless when no other Pokemon has said "generic cartoon bug eyes".

>>58161955
Adding to this, Caterpie is unequivocally based on the swallowtail caterpillar due to its iconic headcrest. What's the signature trait of swallowtail butterfly? A long protrusion on its lower wing that resembles it's namesake, a swallow's tail. Guess who has a swallow tail wing protrusion? Venomoth. Guess who doesn't at all? Butterfree

>>58161384 (OP)
I think it's more likely both were designed as evolutions for Venonat rather than Venomoth being designed for Caterpie/Metapod.
Venonat and Butterfree were first conceived as a line, but then they decided to split it into two different lines, at which point Caterpie/Metapod were created as new pre-evos for Butterfree and Venomoth was created as a new evolution for Venonat

>>58161988
Venomoths crest builds on Caterpie's motif, Venomoth has a swallowtail wing protrusion(which Sugimori heavily shrunk since the original sprite) which is the species Caterpie is. Venomoths lower abdomen matches metapod's lower abdoment. Venomoths 3 pointed crest matches metapod's pointed head with 2 horns on the side

>>58161977
>>58162004
>swallowtail
It's actually a pokemon. Not a real bug. Hope that helps.

>>58161955
>>58161977
That leads more credence to my theory that someone else implemented Butterfree afterwards rather than belonging to Venonat. If Venonat was designed to be related to Butterfree instead of Caterpie, it wouldn't be following Caterpie in the index. Someone suggested the sprites were swapped but that makes even less sense than just swapping the entire bank relation because that's what they ended up doing for most mons to begin with.

>>58161958
>Who is Beedrill
There aren't many Bug mons to argue this point to begin with. By Gen II they would've outright changed their design philosophy so trying to use future reference doesn't work in this instance. The only Bugs in Gen I are the Caterpie, Weedle, Venonat, Paras lines and Pinsir/Scyther, the latter of which was one of the first Pokemon designed and was retrofitted to look like a bug

>>58161988
The order is incredibly clear-cut. Venonat was designed EARLY while these Bugs were designed much later after they started implementing "types". Basically BP and AP (Before Pikachu/After Pikachu)

>>58162021
>of course Venonat and Butterfree have the same eyes, they're bugs and that's just what bugs look like, it doesn't mean anything.
>Caterpie looks like a swallowtail catterpillar and Venomoth looks like a swallowtail butterfly? They're not real bugs, they're just pokemon it doesn't mean anything.
Pick one

>>58161955
you really are faceblind like that guy said holy shit

>>58162031
>I'm so autistic that I think every person I'm arguing against is the same
kwab

>>58162044
I don't care if you're the same person or not, you've admitted that Butterfree and Venonat share design elements that can't be explained away with "they're just bugs so of course they look similar".

>>58162043
Which of these fits better, anon?

>>58162057
Neither because Venonat shouldn't have been evolving into a butterfly/moth to begin with. This argument only makes sense with Caterpie

Butterflies(or moths) don't have mandibles at all btw. It's a unrealistic carry over to give venonat and butterfree continuity. Same as how adult swallowtails don't have head crests but it adds to Caterpie's continuity, or how irl tadpoles lose their visible belly intestine swirl but politoed still has it.

>>58162057
bro... lmao

>>58162067
I mean Venonat (and no it's not a gnat) is not really any sort of real creature, just a nondescript insect monster thing. That fits in much better with Butterfree who, wings aside, is also just a kind of a generic bug creature. As opposed to Venomoth who is drawn in a much more realistic style with a distinct head, thorax, and abdomen, 6 legs, and a visible exoskeleton. The only thing Venonat is lacking in realism on are its mammal-like eyes and the lack of antenna, which is the inverse for Venonat and Butterfree.

>>58162142
>Butterfree
>Generic bug creature

It's literally just a cartoon butterfly, this thread is hellbent on the face somehow being a smoking gun when Butterfree is pretty explicitly intended to be a butterfly, its face looks more like Mothra than anything. That's why I can see the intent of designing a larval stage for a realistic butterfly/moth and then immediately designing a cartoon butterfly instead due to the original idea being too mundane. The design also provides a much better parallel to Beedrill (which these threads seem to ignore)

Generally I feel like Venonat is a complete afterthought in this design process given how much more early in the Index it is (slot 41/065 when Venomoth is 77/119). Its design doesn't really fit any mon outside of Butterfree, which would make more sense if it was listed before Caterpie. Mons in Gen I are pretty cut and dry with their relations, the only ones that were blatantly merged for redundancy were the Squirtle line which cut the redundant designs entirely. It's hard to believe a line as back-to-back focused as Caterpie had intentional design swaps. If it were more scattered in the Index, maybe

>>58162207
Wasn't Beedrill also made up later with it originally being a beetle that had had four arms?

>>58162053
>you've admitted
No, I just told you that these are pokemon and not real animals. Stop being so autistic.

>>58161384 (OP)
I'm tired of you, kill yourself

it would be cool if they made a regional venomoth and regional butterfree that were ecologically similar to their opposites, i.e. swapped designs more or less. Would be really neat.

>>58162230
Yeah looks to be so. The slot for Beedrill takes place right before Butterfrees, so if they changed the designs entirely it was likely to retrofit it to resemble Butterfree or vice versa

>>58162331
it would be cool if they made a regional caterpie thats technically two different species that you can't tell apart

>>58162358
that would be awesome whether you mean it just as a reference to the wurmple line or as a genuine concept. Give it like a tiny difference in a pattern or something that's hard to tell unless you catch it. Would be KINO. Plus having both kantonian and xregional forms in the same dex might be interesting. Would probably facilitate a bug gym, maybe third, with all variants of butterfree and venomoth too.

>>58161803
Morpho is a type of butterfly. Venomoth is still a moth because it's called the 毒蛾のポケモン in Japanese.
バタフリー (batafurī) Butterfree isn't just a play on butterfly, it's also from バタバタ batabata which is the sound of wings flapping.

No matter what anyone wants to believe, Metapod evolves into Butterfree and Venonat into Venomoth.

>>58161384 (OP)
>>58161729
You will never ever convince me that dragonite and gyarados were not swapped.

>>58162582
Dragonite just sucks in general. The belly segmentation was consistent with Dratini's old sprites but dropped going forward.

>>58162538
nta but names in general should not be taken as indication of anything.
could be different back in red green time, but at least nowadays the people designing pokémon do literally just that: the design.
name, dex entries, type, abilities, everything else is decided afterwards by different people

>>58162538
Bro there's nothing stopping the names/pokemon category for being switched or being set post switch

Also the likelihood of the japs being familiar with the scientific name of a butterfly genus(that doesn't even match the swallowtail trait that Venomoth possesses) and choose to make that the name that most people wouldn't even get is very low, Morphon is infinitely more likely just a riff on morphing/metamorphosis.

>>58162592
>carp turns into a dragon
>same whiskers
>same goofy design phylosophy
yeah right

>>58162592
It was also a lot more serpentine. the tail was much longer

>>58162624
Carp turns into eastern style dragon which Gyarados perfectly represents. Gyarados and Magikarp share a ton of design elements

>>58162031
>>58162053
>>58162142
You are arguing with some literal NPCS who would eternally remain in denial about obvious and self-evident facts staring in their face unless higher authority tells them otherwise.
They merely follow authority and would claim that the azure blue sky above their head is in fact red, if the TV told them to do so.

>>58162624
Dragonite has antennae. They are attached much higher on its head than Magikarp and Gyarados' barbels.

>>58162608
Morphon is also a pop culture reference since Morpho was used for giant butterflies in an episode of Ultra Q.

>>58162592
>>58162637
I just wish we had a, possibly female only dragonair evolution that keeps the serpentine, graceful body.
Preferably blue but I'd take some other color if it looks good. Make it a fairy if you have to.

>#83 Venomoth: The wings are covered in powdery, toxic scales. With every flap of their wings, they scatter the scales in clouds. They are said to live in the Safari Zone. However, they are difficult to find due to their small population. Their larval and pupal stages are shrouded in mystery.

Written by Tajiri himself. The encyclopedia is full of meta references to the game's development. The way it specifically refer to larval(caterpillar) and pupal(cocoon) makes it obvious something funny happened.

>>58162716
You are right but what do you want us to do about it?

>>58161384 (OP)
and I'm tired of your autism

>>58162736
nothing. he is autistic and autistic people never know what they want. they just like to babble on about their pointless trivia until they tire themselves out.

>>58162760
It's not pointless, I think he is right and anybody with triple digit iq is able to tell there was some fuckery.
I'm just asking what we can do about it.

>>58161955
Er, if anything, it seems they "retconned" venonat to be more similar to butterfree in later artwork? The hands and antenna are much more different between them here... Well, anyway, insect larva don't really look at all like the adults in real life.

>>58162736
Sugimori to come clean and speak up on what actually happened to satiate our curiosity.
>We switched it because we felt caterpie needed a cooler evo
>Someone programmed it wrong because we were indexing Butterfree and Venomoth close together and nobody noticed until it was too late
>Someone programmed it wrong but we then thought it wasn't a big deal or even liked it better that way anyway
>We were fucking with the players
>The programmer was a fan of Omega and he was pissed they cut it while we kept two redundant interchangeable butterflies so he pulled this stunt to make a point in protest
Something, anything

>>58162775
him being right doesn't make it not pointless
you autistic freak

>>58162815
Sounds like what a loser who is particularly fond of giving up would say.
Your life sounds pointless why don't you rope?

>>58162788
Venonat doesn't look like anything in particular to the point a Japanese guy cites Kamen Rider's helmet as the most likely design influence. Actually, it might be funny if they introduced a branch evolution for Venonat that has neotenic traits like the eyes, antennae and mouth, but the overall body is nothing like either Venomoth or Butterfree, but an earwig or something.

>>58162806
Why don't you learn japanese and ask him directly? I am sure you can write email or something to nintendo.
qrd on omega?

>>58162582
I think it's based on some actual legend.

Anyway, design-wise it was always intended. Same fin design, same whiskers, constantly open mouth. OG R/G sprites resemble each other more.

>>58162788
>The hands and antenna are much more different between them here
They aren't, and the mandibles are far more identical, the art then greatly dumbed down Butterfree's mouth while retconning fangs into Venomoth.

>insect larva don't really look at all like the adults in real life.
It's not real life. Again, irl tadpoles have the belly intestine swirl, frogs/toads do not. Politoed still has a belly swirl

>>58162806
I wonder if Venomoth would be green had it remained in caterpie's line

>>58162608
Morpho is one of the most well-known species of butterfly in Japan, Morphomon is a Digimon. Ageha (the swallowtail butterfly) is also really well-known, it's where Beautifly (Agehunt) gets its name.

>>58162841
>Qrd on omega
Just a cool mecha kaiju from the red and green beta that got cut(while shit like spearow/pidgey and butterfree/venomoth made it to the final version)

>>58162882
Wasn't there an internal poll thing in that one manga that had Spearow marked for deletion, but still made it through?

>>58161384 (OP)
Who the fuck cares? The current way is better.

>>58162891
Yup, it's weird. It's not like it even fits any special niche ingame, just another tall grass earlymon to add to the pile

>>58162908
Even the best way to justify it is from gameplay things as "the bird that actually can do flying-type damage because it knows Peck" is a much later game balance concern, and one that probably wasn't intentional considering most Gen 1 movesets.

>>58162944
Maybe they had the Mirror Move(Parrot Talk) gimmick signature move already programmed for it and didn't want to let go of it but even that I don't see how it couldn't be transfered for the Pidgey line or something. It's not like Spearow is that much of a parrot(and whatever parrotness it has gets lost with Fearow), a move like that would be as equally plausible on Pidgeotto.

*farts on this stupid thread*
*leaves without comment*

>>58161384 (OP)
This is just the case of gamefreak being lazy as fuck as usual since a shit ton of kantomons share the same design features

>>58162859
>They aren't
I assume you are American so feel you are assured even in face of obvious but, if you look... Fingers for venonat are much longer. Antenna look nothing alike in the sprites. Venonat has got a much longer fur. They only look alike at the eyes and face, really...

>>58161384 (OP)
You are wrong. There is no mixup, you just have mid IQ. An actual stereotypical beautiful butterfly as the final evo of an early mon (also able to serve as one of the minor mascots of the game) in a monster game makes much more sense than an unremarkable looking, only in specs interesting moth. The latter is more fitting for a late game monster. Also the contrast to a mean looking wasp final evo makes more sense.

Follow along well children, you just received insight into how the thought processes of 115 IQ vs 130 IQ looks like.

>>58163165
It's the antennae that really baffle me because it's too different to really make me believe "no it was supposed to be an evo" because the traits should be more consistently similar between stages and not "they look similar enough"

>>58163182
Beedrill has huge eyes and a mouth so small it isn't visible. It is cute.

>>58162142
Venonat is a Kuriboh

>>58163165
The antenna are """different""" because venonat's antenna are in front of its black body so they need to be white for contrast, meanwhile Butterfree's antenna are against the white background so they have to be black. Notice how the few antenna pixels at the root above Butterfree's eyes are also white because they are against the black forehead.

Venonat has a lot more body real estate (and was created first) so later to accommodate the wings taking up space things have to be slightly shrunken on Butterfree's body. The mandibles are slightly smaller but undeniably the same(while the art retcons Butterfree's fangs to be teeny tiny), the hands are also the same but more noticeably shrunk, the feet have the same shape and only only look different because they are positioned differently(while the art retcons venonat's feet to have a suggestion of "toes"). Feel free to analyze the shading technique they use for the hands and feet and notice how it's the same

>>58163184
Now apply what you just said to Venonat and Venomoth which have NOTHING in common lmao

>>58163229
Because Venomoth is a mid-game shitmon. It doesn't need to be designed, just dumped in the Safari Zone.

>>58163234
That's such a sad cope. Try harder

Venonat and Butterfree have slight difference! That means it's impossible they are related

Venonat and Venomoth are completely different with zero carry over traits and thats okay :)

>>58163182
130 is mid iq you self-admitted retard
why do you think modern whites are so retarded?
150 is when you enter human being territory

>>58163227
The antenna is not just different from color the shape is totally unalike...Well as I said go USA hah.

>>58163240
Pinsir and Scyther look like nothing, Kangaskhan looks like nothing, Exeggutor only has "multiple faces" in common, Chansey looks like nothing. They just had a leftover Venonat and linked it up for all these Pokemon that don't fit anywhere in the game.

>>58161384 (OP)
>design bug to evolve into winged bug
>looks the exact same but with wings
>"hey this just gains wings upon evolving but in real life when bugs evolve they become totally different. this is lamer than real life. can't we swap these around?"
>swap them around
>no one has a problem with it
>30 years later Anon has an autistic fit on an anime image board like this is one of the artistic world's foremost problems in need of addressing
go get laid or something for fuck's sake

>>58163262
>Pinsir and Scyther
You absolute moron lmao

>>58163266
>moved the goalpost from "no you are wrong" to "ok you are right but it doesn't matter"
pathetic
considering roping

>>58163269
Name 1 (one) Pokemon they look like. They don't have any, so they are only in the Safari Zone.

>>58163258
The antenna has a total different shape! Meanwhile venonat and venomoth's look totally alik-

>>58163266
How come they didn't fix guys like Rapidash or Dewgong?

>>58163284
They are lepidopters...they are not supposed to look alike from child to adult.. Meh. Believes as you want. It doesn't matter in end you are still wrong and evolutions are how they are forever :)

>>58163293
It is just a cartoon animal.

>>58163262
>A bunch of pokemon look like nothing because they don't evolve
>Exeggcute and exeggutor doesn't count even though the multiple seed faces is 100% of one's design and 80% of the other

I've heard a lot of bullshit through the years trying to justify away venonat and Venomoth but "doesn't matter because safari zone" might be one of the dumbest things I ever heard

>>58163293
Why does Politoed have a belly swirl! They are amphibians they are not supposed to look alike from child to adult! Only the tadpoles have belly swirls!

>>58163165
>Fingers for venonat are much longer.
No they aren't, Venonat is just being seen from a closer perspective so there's more detail on the hands visible. Remember these are tiny ass gameboy sprites.

>>58163293
>It doesn't matter in end you are still wrong and evolutions are how they are forever :)
Do you think we're trying to get Gamefreak to change the evos or something? I just find it interesting to examine how the games were developed.

They did my bro so dirty

>>58161384 (OP)
no

>>58162582
the butterfree/venomoth swap has features you can point to that link the designs to their "true" evolutionary lines. the dragonite/gyarados swap is pure cope from butthurt dragonairfags. its only "evidence" is that gyarados is blue and serpentine, but if you look at the details you'll see gyarados resembles magikarp far more than it does dragonair.

>>58163279
kabutops

>>58163292
>he thinks ponyta was supposed to evolve into dewgong and seel was supposed to evolve into rapidash

>>58161856
Don't forget magneton

>>58161384 (OP)
drastic evolutions are more interesting
Venonat and butterfree look too similar

>>58163757
interesting does not always mean better
venomoth abandons everything that makes venonat appealing. and quite frankly, it's a mediocre design that very few people care about.
if venomoth had butterfree's design they'd both be memorable. butterfree (venomoth) for being the fast-evolving early bug, and venomoth (butterfree) for being a cutie.

>>58161868
The Chimecho thing is especially baffling because we know they designed it fairly early on all things considered and was well liked so it's not like it was at risk of being cut early on so unless they did a 360 on it over the course of development the fact that it's at the ass end of the index doesn't make any fucking sense.

>>58163802
maybe they put it in the last slot first so they knew when they ran out of space

>>58161955
Fun Fact: The Venonat sprite is blatantly resized after it got an evolution. Pretty sure you can even see it in the poll in the manga.
>>58163817
That's dumb enough to make sense for Game Freak. However, Egg and every non-A form of Unown come after it. Also oddly enough, there's over 20 unused slots between Celebi and Treecko which sort of makes sense because there was probably a lot of swapping going on in general to get the Pokemon in roughly Pokedex order.

>>58163802
I can only imagine maybe someone fucked up the count and they ended up needing to insert it at the end when they were trying to get everything in NatDex order because they impressively were able to do that for the most part

>>58163834
I've been staring at this sprite all day and honestly I can believe it being intended to a single stage mon. It's not like Tangela had an evolution or anything and it looks massive in the earlier games too, I think it wasn't until the anime/Gen II where they started making Tangela look small for whatever reason

>>58163870
Lots of really early Gen 1 Pokemon were like that, they just kept designing things and barely had evolution in mind at all while they were doing it. It's only shortly after Atsuko Nishida joined the team when they thought that was a cool idea they should do more often (or at all possibly, it's not super clear when they came up with the idea). Hell, Golem and Graveller were probably completely unrelated before they decided that they were similar enough to be related.

>>58163834
It's not resized, it's pretty much redrawn from scratch. When they settled the concept of evolution all first stage pokemon minus Gastly and Exeggcute were made to be small. Tentacool's sprite was also changed for a smaller one, Voltorb too, etc

>>58163895
They clearly decided types around the time Nishida joined since she started designing intentionally elemental designs like Pikachu the moment she joined. Venonat predates most of the Bug mons in the game, I think only Scyther is an earlier design and it didn't used to look like a Mantis at all it was just a sharp sword dragon creature. The gap between Venonat and everything else is part of the reason I don't believe it's related to anything

>>58163910
Just because something was added later on doesn't mean it's "not related to anything", yeah it wasn't designed with an evolution in mind like most mons of that period. By the time they finalized the concept of evolution Pokemon that had been previously designed were expanded on with prevos/evos, same way how they had types assigned retroactively

>>58163944
Yeah, which is why they retroactively tied Venonat to Venomoth, because the Caterpie line was already designed by that point >>58162030

>>58163774
I'm not a girl so I always found Venomoth looks more interesting and even in s strange sense cuter than Butterfree, but I get how femanons are more drawn to the butterfly.

>>58161384 (OP)
Maybe it was a mixup and they already sent the game out and had to run with it

>>58163956
Venomoth and the Caterpie line are close enough that they are all part of the same batch

>>58163978
>I'm not a girl
yes you are
also what does that have to do with anything

>>58162358
Dope idea

>>58164003
i'm trans and i think venonat was supposed to evolve into butterfree

>>58164040
>i'm trans
no you aren't

>>58163997
Refer to the post again. Retroactively attempting to give Venomoth a larval state and then adding a different butterfly instead makes more sense than Butterfree and Venonat "looking the same" especially given Butterfree's name does not detract from the idea it's a butterfly

>>58164054
I'm confused

>Venonat gets added, no regards to any sort of evolution
>Lots of time passes, the idea of evolution gets finalized
>time to add evolutions and preevolutions to the pokemon we previously had and design completely new lines that we can now design with evolution in mind
>Venomoth, Caterpie, Metapod and Butterfree and some other Pokemon get added in a batch
Here's where we don't know exactly what happened. Maybe the programmer in charge of programming the sprites messed up, it's not hard to mix the two butterflies if you weren't part of the art/design team especially since Butterfree happened to be inserted right after Metapod. Maybe they deliberately thought to switch them(like maybe thinking Caterpie should have the cooler evo for a better first impression or Tajiri felt that bugs evolving should always have a drastic transformation). Or maybe there was no switch up and they just happened to design a butterfly that randomly happens to have all the same features of that one other bug they had designed all the while designing an evolution for said bug that randomly just happens have virtually none of the features for its intended preevolution.

>>58164137
maybe you should take your meds

>>58162538
>THEIR FINAL VERSIONS HAVE THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE IN THEIR LINES SO THAT MEANS IT WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THIS WAY AND NOTHING EVER EVER EVER CHANGED BEHIND THE SCENES BEFORE THE FINAL DETAILS WERE DECIDED!!!!!!

the fact that anyone can look at venonat and butterfree next to eachother and unironically claim:
>they don't look alike
>venomoth looks like venonat more
>they couldn't have designed butterfree as an evo for venonat just to swap it with metapod later
>they couldn't have changed parts of each one's designs to justify the new pairings
>they couldn't have programmed things in a way different from their actual end results
is a testament to how unthinking so many people can be. You are exclusively arguing from the end result, the current status quo, and formulating arguments purely as excuses for why natural and obvious alterations couldn't occur. There is NO WORLD where venonat and butterfree did not have the former influence the latter's design. If you are arguing against that, then you are incapable of independent thought.

>>58164367
you're the same type of unfocused crosseyed retard that thinks alomamola is heart shaped. you dont actually look at things or understand form you just glance and let your subconscious feel in details. this community is lousy with rabbit people

>>58164437
(You)

>>58162674
>autisticly seethes over the most basic bitch pokemon theory there is
>thinks other people are the NPCs
kwab

>>58164465
look at it. actively focus on it. is it heart shaped or have you been a retard for years that saw a bullet shape with rounded fins like many fish have and because its pink you decided it was a valentine card heart shape. you dumb fuckin prey item.

This thread is like watching a person break down over time because people don't agree over a stupid fucking theory that has to rely on "they CHANGED IT AT SOME POINT TRUST ME"

>>58161384 (OP)
They changed them around because Butterfree is cute while Venomoth is a little creepy. Since Caterpie was designed from the ground up as a mon present early in the game they thought it'd be better if it got the cuter evolution

>>58164527
Nta but it really does look like a luvdisc evolution despite luvdisc's gimmick being butterfly fish that become a butterfly when kissing.

>>58164527
>provides strawman
>is given (You)
>doubles down on strawman

>>58164516
see >>58164367
You people are the reason why we get shit games and why the world is rotting.

I like the theory but I think it's Clefable-Gengar tier. It's probably just repeated design ideas, which they have proven to do time and again. Venomoth only looks like Caterpie a tiny bit. Butterfree looks like Venonat a lot, and if it weren't for the fangs and hands, I'd throw that theory out entirely.

It would help if he were green.

>>58164532
Yeah this makes the most sense

>>58161759
>So we had VenoNAT that evolved into Butterfree but Metapod evolves in VenoMOTH?
You do realize that if we want to be realistic, both butterfly and metapod should evolve from larva and then cocoon/chrystalis. Nat becoming moth makes 0 sense.

>>58161823
>painter doesnt have smeargle but the faggot do
come on

>>58162030
>first they added venonat
>then they added unrelated venomoth
>then they add preevo to venomoth (caterpie)
>they also realized they need to add evo to venonat (butterfree)

>>58161384 (OP)
Paras and Venomoth have the exact same eye shape. They're clearly supposed to be part of the same line.

>>58164527
the body is the heart. the fins are hands.

Caterpie is clearly a gnat it was supposed to be Venonat

>>58161384 (OP)
One interesting detail about Venomoth is that for some reason for the release of Red and Blue in the US, Sugimori made artwork depicting Venomoth was yellow spots on the back of its wings which some associate with Caterpie's yellow circles along its body. When the Gold & Silver Spaceworld build leaked, it was discovered that Venomoth's beta sprite also had the same spots on its wings. The fact it was the US artwork is what's so confusing though because it already had a finalized design years earlier.

>>58165190
they did this shit on purpose just to fuck with people

>>58165190
There were a lot of other Gen 1 pokemon that had minor design changes between Green and Blue that didn't stick around. Like Nidoqueen was given teeth in Blue but that got retconned later to just being a toothless beak. I don't think this necessarily means anything for Venomoth, they were just experimenting with designs still.

This is a basic bitch thread made by a basic bitch who autistically can't let go. I can say that Charmander was supposed to evolve into Dragonite because they both have round heads and Charizard and Dragonite share visual elements and people argue that Dragonite wasn't supposed to be related to Dratini and Dragonair.
>Bro they could have changed it before development
>Bro they could have changed the index numbers
>Bro they could have changed the categories
>Bro they could have changed the types
>Bro you just gotta believe bro, your minds aren't as EXPANDED as mine, bro
Except the facts show otherwise. What a stupid ass hill to die on.

>>58165458
this is an insane take. Literally every way you look at venonat and butterfree they share very distinct and obvious traits. There is literally no other pokemon with a mouth and mandibles like these two. They have identical eyes, which no other pokemon has a pair really resembling. They have the exact same hands clasped against their chest in the exact same position on their identically colored body. Literally the only differences:
>body is no longer a literal ball of fluff, I guess it got shaved
>it grows butterfly wings
>its "skin" changes color I guess
that's it. That's all. Just that. Those are the only changes. Anyone arguing that
>venonat gets made
>time passes
>butterfree's designed based on venonat
>they reassign it to caterpie and metapod for whatever reason, doesn't matter
is NOT the course of events is either a schizophrenic or a troll with no inbetween.

>>58165572
But anon le rhydon and le nidos and le kanga all borrow from the same upright dino generic kaiju shape which means any resemblance can be attributed to pure coincidence and lack of creativity!

>>58165458
there is no need to be upset

>>58165572
>identically colored body
nigga you need an eye exam. venonat is purple. butterfree is blue.

>>58165758
>>58161955

>>58165773
anon...

>>58164868
>sees two things that are similar color
>seethes when they aren't a pair
You have autism + no friends

I 100% believe in theory. I only have this to ask: Why the fuck did they originally plan for a gnat to evolve into what is clearly a monarch butterfly? What the fuck were they thinking??

>>58166423
>Gnat
Bro thinks Sandshrew is a shrew because the American localization said so

>>58163774
>interesting does not always mean better
it does in this case
it's that simple

>>58163275
Anon, multiple people in the thread have been saying "ok even if you're right so what?" from the very beginning, you're fighting ghosts. hell, just look at your furious reply like this is some important honor-deciding thing we're doing. "pathetic. consider roping." over pokémon butterflies. do you really have no clue how much of a clown you're making yourself out to be?
by the way feel free to tell us what you actually WANT: assuming the developers of Red and Green swapped Butterfree and Venomoth during development 30 years ago, what then? what do you want us to DO?

>>58162142
I honestly think it's possible that he was just some furryball that they added the bug eyes much later - the only characteristic that it has that is really bug-ish. I feel like this furryball thing is very common among japanese. Isn't there one in Yu-Gi-Oh and/or Digimon? Is it based on anything?

>>58166544
Mothra's face, especially the classic one, is very furry

>>58166503
no it doesn't
/thread

>>58166536
The evolutions were swapped
Billions must die

>>58166544
Fur and bugs is not an uncommon combo. There are fuzzy caterpillars, moths, butterflies, beetles, bees, spiders...

>>58161384 (OP)
>THESE UNRELATED POKEMON WITH SIMILAR DESIGN FEATURES WERE MEAN'T TO BE IN THE SAME EVOLUTION LINE BECAUSE...|B-BECAUSE THEY JUST ARE, OK!

>>58166970
Why are you using Blue Version artwork as evidence? That was made long after the games were already out. Original grayscale RG sprites only.

>>58166970
What if the prevo of Blastoise would also evolve into Lapras and be the first split evo? We will never know.

>>58166970
Wdym "unrelated" you just posted blastoise with his two wives.

>>58166970
schizophrenia

>>58168398
I'm no doctor but I'd say it's more L1 Autism (The condition formally known as Aspergers). Fixations on patterns, and a vague unawareness that no one else cares about it anywhere near as much as they do.

I say that because that's what I am, and if I'm not careful I could go on similar tangents. Most of us don't try, that's why you get people like Chris Chan.

>>58161384 (OP)
Gastly was supposed to evolve into cloyster

>>58169143
Original Gastly wasn't even a black sphere, just a pile of smoke

>>58168398
>schizophrenia
Exactly the point, just like /OP/'s picture.

>>58169577
Right

>>58169614
I didn't remember butterfree's sprite having compound eyes, that does seem significant

>>58163774
I like Venomoth and it works much better for its game position and typing (Butterfree could never sell being a poison type.)

>>58169614
>inaccurate spritework
Nice job.

>>58165572
This is how retarded conspiracies propagate.
>This thing HAS to be true because *subjective views and vague observations*, please ignore *concrete evidence that disproves this*.
Caterpie's family were added as a set, like most pre-planned evo families. A sprite swap makes zero sense, would have been caught for such an early game mon, and is an incredibly easy fix. A lot of Pokémon have weird/vague similarities due to the limited design language of Gen 1 mons (see: "Cubone is a baby Kangaskhan!")

>>58169748
The original sprites predate the artwork. Sugimori only unified and streamlined the designs later and he claims to change the features of the designs he didn't like about them. How can you be on /vp/ in 2025 and still not know this? Are you 12?

>>58169774
>A sprite swap makes zero sense
It really doesn't. We know the early Gyarados was a giant sandworm and yet when they switched it to the seaserpent dragon later it still occupied it's original index space.

Sprite switch doesn't necessarily mean a mistake. Again, they may have felt Butterfree being the cooler more appealing design would make a better first impression as the first in-game evolution, maybe Tajiri(who's not a pokemon designer) being a bug autist felt that all bugs should have a more radical transformation, maybe they felt Butterfree being so Mothra-coded would be better having a larva and cocoon, etc

>>58169807
>It really doesnt
Lol meant "but it does"

>>58169736
The concept of types didn't exist when Venomoth was created.

>>58169855
There were. It's venonat that predates types

However the idea that "butterfree could never sell being poison type" is stupid as fuck

>>58169864
I meant to say Venonat, yeah.

>>58169819
WTF No i'm >>58169807 and I meant what I wrote: It really doesn't

>>58170019
Fuck off

>>58170073
lmao

>>58170073
Hahahaha

>>58169774
>would have been caught for such an early game mon, and is an incredibly easy fix
why are you people so weird? it wasn't a mistake retard, it was an intentional choice....

>>58161384 (OP)
This whole thread has just been
>what do you mean venonat looks like butterfree? someone else in this thread insisted it was a mistake/metapod should evolve to venomoth/blastoise and nidoqueen look the same/whatever so you're a schizo, also venonat and butterfree look nothing alike, theor bodies are NOT the same color, their hands are NOT the same shape, their eyes are NOT identical, their mouths/mandibles are NOT identical, LOOK LOOK THEY HAVE DIFFERENTLY COLORED ANTENNAS, THEIR HAND/FEET/MOUTHS CHANGED COLOR, BUTTERFREE DOESN'T HAVE A FLUFFY BODY AND IT GREW WINGS!!! THIS MEANS THEY LOOK NOTHING ALIKE SCHIZO!!!!!!!!! THEY COULD NEVER HAVE CHANGED THEIR MIND ABOUT ANYTHING DURING DEVELOPMENT NO STOP LOOKING AT THE BETA

>>58161955
>The og sprites predate the artwork
I am certain you are genuinely dumb enough to believe this.

>>58172617
Bait post to try to revive a dead thread. No I'm not gonna spoonfeed you the Sugimori quotes

so it's settled, butterfree was initially planned to evolve from venonat

>>58171788
Ironically looking at the code heavily suggests the theory is wrong.
The only way it could really work is if the concept artists designed Venomoth, Butterfree and the Caterpie line at the same time, and then the designers decided Butterfree worked better as the final Caterpie evo for whatever reason, and then implemented the line with that intent. But at that point what are you even trying to prove? Such a theory is completely unverifiable outside of getting confirmation from an actual designer on the original games, and ultimately it doesn't actually matter that much since the entire conceit behind the original theory is "omg look at this EPIC mistake GF made I am so much smarter than their entire team for noticing this!"

>>58173192
>the entire conceit behind the original theory is
that butterfree is obviously designed with venonat in mind instead of the caterpie line. So what you said, that >>58173192
>the concept artists designed Venomoth, Butterfree and the Caterpie line at the same time, and then the designers decided Butterfree worked better as the final Caterpie evo for whatever reason,
is pretty much what happend, bar slight de-syncing for decisions made before actually implementing them in-game. So, designers worked on caterpie line and butterfree and venomoth were either designed separately or venomoth was originally intended for caterpie's line and either way they decided butterfree was better for early game presentation like someone suggested earlier in the thread. Supremely easy decision to make.

>>58173192
>the entire conceit behind the original theory is "omg look at this EPIC mistake GF made I am so much smarter than their entire team for noticing this!"
no it isn't

>>58173192
they might well have looked at the butterfly and moth mons they had and thought butterfree would make more sense up front when they decided to use caterpie to teach evolution in the early game.

>>58161384 (OP)
Cut Venonat from the series and give Metapod Wurmple's gimmick.

AHOJ DAFE

>>58173896
Dude, you're wrong. Multiple people itt have carefully explained to you why you are wrong, from multiple standpoints including the base game code. Your dumb theory has more holes than Thailand. You were so desperate you started talking about color similarities in the 1st gen games which were in greyscale lol. Just give it a rest man it's over.

>>58174080
>Multiple people itt have carefully explained to you why you are wrong,
Because why? Because the way it currently is means that it could never be anything else? Venonat and butterfree literally only differ by shaving fur and getting wings. They designed Venonat first, then made the other designs later. At some point, they decided to swap venonat's evolution with metapod's evolution. That's what happened. It makes no sense to argue against it considering how obviously the designs are aligned.

>>58174128
reminder you are a brainfried skitzo and the one single thing that venonat and butterfree have in common is their hands which they share with many other genwun mons

>>58161955
literally a standard kanto "it just gets bigger" evolution but in reverse, which is too much for anons itt to wrap their heads around

>>58174430
because they don't really look alike at all. even the eyes are actually fairly different if you pay attention. you and op are brown.

>>58166459
Same case: Typhlosion isn't called Rapelosion, yet rape is what it does.

>>58174445
I'm talking about the bottom two

>>58174406
Lmao >>58161955

>>58174466
yeah no shit. you are dumb.

>>58174468
no matter how many times you reply to your own post it still demonstrates you are wrong paco.

>>58174469
Blind AND projecting

>>58174406
>skitzo
I've seen you post several times and you've never fixed your spelling for this lmao, you call others paco but you yourself are an ESL.

>>58161955
they are literally the exact same eyes, mouth, hands, feet... it just grew wings and lost the fluff. And I guess the antennas changed from white to black. This is pretty cut and dry. It would take a ton of EXTRA steps for butterfree to have been designed using those exact same traits but have been intended for the caterpie line instead. Lmao.

>>58174556
>This is pretty cut and dry.
Yeah, that they never got mixed up, schizo.

>>58175444
checked but dumb and gay and wrong

>Mewtwo is a clone of mew
just because nintendo of america named it mew "two"? they dont evolve into each other and look less like each other than even venonat/butterfree.
>but they're next to each other in the dex
mew "one" is after the supposed evolution. everyone knows mew was only placed at the end because it was the last one added.