Thread 58164794

I miss the chinese zodiac threads. It was really fun to argue about cyndaquil barely fitting and arguing about whether foxes were dogs. I thought for sure scrobunny was the clincher, because how could they just keep picking chinese zodiac reps for fire starters 8 times in a row? but then we got the cocodile. Even the frail coping of it maybe turning into a quetzalcoatl-style snake wasn't enough to save it. Even the prehistoric trend for grass starters was abandoned... and while water starters never truly had a trend (which was the killer for the entire concept of starters having themes in the first place), they still dashed it with sobble being a lizard/chameleon instead of something amphibious.
It was more fun when we could make "accurate" guesses. Even though it was inaccurate in the end.

>>58164794 (OP)
>cyndaquil barely fitting
they removed cyndaquil to fix this

>>58164799
>Guys isn't it weird that they reused Tepig in the gen 5 games?

>>58164794 (OP)
>It was more fun when we could make "accurate" guesses.
patternfags are fucking delusional
who the fuck finds something predictable fun? that is like the exact opposite of fun

>>58164794 (OP)
>Even the prehistoric trend for grass starters was abandoned
Grass was abandoned in gen 5. No Serperior is not a titanoboa, it's just a snake. It has nothing in common with titanoboa beyond being a snake and Serp isn't even that big compared to modern pythons and anacondas. Decidueye is also not a stilt owl (it does not have long legs) and Rillaboom is not a gigantopithecus (it is again, smaller than modern gorillas).

>>58164831
“abandoned” is a misnomer because it never fucking existed

>>58164848
I mean it's pretty undeniable that there was a trend from at least gens 2 to 4 to base the grass starter on giant prehistoric reptiles and you can debatably include Venusaur as well (yet it's supposed to be a frog but it pretty clearly includes other elements as well).

I'm not a patternfag though, I don't think this was ever something Gamefreak decided they "have" to do for the sake of having a unified theme or pattern, rather it's just common design element that they can draw on when they're workshopping ideas for starter Pokemon. Like how do you make Inteleon feel more like a water starter? Give it a notable weapon feature which is a trait shared by a lot of other water starters (Blastoise, Empoleon, Samurott, Greninja). But it's not a required pattern which is why Feraligatr, Swampert, Primarina don't fit into it regardless of how pattern-obsessed autists try to stretch them in.

>>58164825
There are actually about 12+ categorically different ways to have fun. Different people find enjoyment in different things, thats why some people enjoy competitive games while others enjoy life sims.

>>58164825
structured creativity is often more intellectually stimulating that unstructured creativity. I also found that when you just let people come up with whatever they thought of with no regard for constraints, it actually decreases the amount of variety you can achieve. Consider:
>the next fire starter is one of: a goat, a snake, a horse, or an ox
and you think: Oh, you could base the ox one on a brazen bull, a snake could be like a carnival theme or public showman theme with firebreathing = spitting cobra, but also snakecharmers, you could have the goat be traditional hellish design, but you could make it based on how goats will jump into fire to cleanse themselves of parasites, maybe the horse could be based on firefighter horses those are common in cartoons or whatever, maybe make it absorb fire, it could have an internal engine. That could be cool.
>the next fire starter is whatever you want
uhhhh lemme get uhhhh idk how about a flaming hamster (one of the top results on google when you type in "fanmade fire starter pokemon" lmao)
I get that constraining yourself CAN lead to less interesting outcomes, but it's just a jumping off point. I thought it was fun.

>>58164794 (OP)
>Even the prehistoric trend for grass starters was abandoned
It was never fucking there. Venusaur has always just been a bullfrog with cat ears but people take localized names way too seriously.

>>58164923
Okay how about a firey hedgehog where the spines are instead a row of flames? Or a fox Pokemon based on the mystical powers foxes have in folklore that evolves into a fox witch using a flaming stick as a wand? Or a fire/ghost crocodile that's shaped like a coffin and based on various funeral traditions like cremation, dirges, and the mexican day of the dead festival?

>>58164794 (OP)
I don't agree OP, those threads were cancer.
But keep your chin up. Gen 10 starters will be revealed in *checks watch* just about six months from now. If the fire starter even vaguely looks inspired by the zodiac we'll easily have another couple years of this shit until it's disproved once again

>>58165156
What do balding clowns have to do with funerals?

>>58164794 (OP)
It can continue if we get a fire horse or bull for gen 10. Gen 9 can just not count. They'll eventually run out of animals anyway.

>>58164825
>>58164831
>>58164848
>>58164936
>man I liked those threads where we discussed whether a pattern was real or not, shame they disproved the pattern
>THERE WAS NO PATTERN SCHIZO
...?

>>58164794 (OP)
>It was so fun to have the same arguments over and over for about two decades

>>58164831
you have to admit the stilt owl matchup for decidueye was reasonable. It loses its flying typing but can still fly, the stilt owl was an island owl in an island region, recently extinct so ghost type, it's not like it's a stupid suggestion to make. Even bulbapedia still mentions the stilt owl as a possible origin contributor. Beyond that the arguments for patterns were always that they were used to help inspire the designs as a framework. Nobody thought something like what >>58164936 is suggesting. It's a strawman if anything, nobody ever REALLY thought venusaur's line was a dinosaur cus of the english name in this form of analyisis. Rather, it was always suggested that either during or after the development of gen 2 someone looked at the 6 starters so far and said "hey isn't it funny that the americans call fushigidane a dinosaur, and we made the next grass starter a dinosaur? we should make the next one dinosaur-esque too, make it a raptor or something" and repeat with "oh hey we also have a dragon and a hinezumi according to the gaijin, that's on the chinese zodiac. We WERE thinking about using a rooster for the next fire starter" and the water one would have probably "formed" later. That was ALWAYS the argument. Probably would have only really come through fully in gen 4 and 5 because torterra is 100% inspired by ankylosaurs in addition to the world turtle motif; they added that in on purpose regardless of any actual trends (mind you, at this point, that WOULD have been "4" for 4 "dinosaur" starters if they thought it was fun to keep doing it, and 2 with intention, which would not be unreasonable to suggest even DID happen in real life.) Notably we know for an ABSOLUTE FACT that there WAS a pattern to making starters at some point - Infernape and Emboar were 100% inspired by journey to the west and romance of the three kingdom's. So we KNOW they considered relationships of starters across generations. It's silly to say it was impossible, imo.

>>58164794 (OP)
>>58164923
>>58165156
>>58165202
>>58165236
brazen bull fire starter would have been amazing, a FIRE/STEEL bull blowing smoke from its nose and learning stuff like iron head, head smash, flame charge, and heat crash, give it stats like 90/110/110/70/80/70 or something around there and it'd be one of the most popular mons ever made, easy.

>>58165426
The extinct animal claim it the ultimate unfalsifiable theory. That is to say, it explains nothing. There are far more extinct species than there are living ones. And there is no living species without close relatives that are now extinct.
That means any real animal on which a starter is based can be linked to a very similar extinct species. You could pose the same theory for Water starters. Or Fire starters, if Charizard wasn't a dragon.

>>58165455
>Or Fire starters, if Charizard wasn't a dragon.
so they CAN make starters that aren't based on extinct animals? Not to mention they could just make a grass starter that's, I dunno, a plant. There's also all the different animals with traits that are almost impossible to verify for extinct animals, and animals whose recent extinct ancestors were basically the exact same as the modern forms. An obvious choice would be something like a panda because of the bamboo. What would an extinct panda be? Not what a modern panda is. It's unfalsifiable, sure, but it's also plausible, which makes it fun to discuss. Also, for what it's worth, just because something is unfalsifiable doesn't mean it is is false and we just don't have proof; if in gen 10 they do an interview and say something crazy like "oh after gen 2 we decided to make the grass starters dinosaurs, we stuck with this until gen 5 when we wanted to use a different idea..." then it would be both hilarious and understandable. That type of discussion, the one where we say "what if they're discussing these things behind closed doors" is not stupid, it's not annoying, it's not worthless, it's just fun.
Also just to be clear I'm not arguing it's real, I don't know if you'll pick up on that, I'm trying to make it obvious but to be clear this IS just a metadiscussion about the concept of discussing whether certain patterns would be applicable...

>>58164825
I, too, enjoy stochastic music.

Is there a fan game or another monster tamer series that caters to pattern-lovers?

>>58164794 (OP)
Sorry about your autism anon

>>58165445
this, brazen bull would have been awesome. So long as it stayed quadrupedal at least.

>>58164848
It’s crazy how much people’s perception can be affected by details.
If the localization had no de used to add -saur to the Bulbasaur line, I’m sure almost no one would think it was a dinosaur and instead would just see a giant frog. And without that, the entire concept of grass starters being extinct animals would have never existed because it would be just Meganium and Torterra

>>58165592
ignoring everything else I never understood where people got frog from. It's got ears and a tail and doesn't jump like a frog. Plus it's grass/poison and you'd think it were a water starter if it were a frog. I always thought of it as a mammal, like a little wombat or something. Even Venusaur kind of looks like a big wide hippo-esque animal to me, though admittedly they probably was never intended to actually be mammalian.

>>58165484
>Not to mention they could just make a grass starter that's, I dunno, a plant.
They are never going to make a starter that isn't obviously an animal so this is irrelevant. Cute cats/frogs/birds/etc sell better than just a plant with a face and they're also a much more approachable entrypoint for kids new to the series.
>There's also all the different animals with traits that are almost impossible to verify for extinct animals, and animals whose recent extinct ancestors were basically the exact same as the modern forms. An obvious choice would be something like a panda because of the bamboo. What would an extinct panda be? Not what a modern panda is.
There are in fact fossil pandas. Nobody outside of incredibly niche paleontological fields knows or cares about them of course but they did exist (obviously) and they are known. There was also nobody who knew or cared about stilt owls until Rowlet was revealed and patternfags googled "extinct owls" to try and find a match. Again, literally any living animal has fossil relatives, the connection is only meaningful if the Pokemon actually has traits in common with said fossils. Decidueye has fuck-all to do with stilt owls other than being Hawaiann and Rillaboom and Serperior have even less to do with their supposed inspirations. Meowscarada too, but the patternfags don't even try to connect that one anymore after getting BTFO'd on the Zodiac, but in pre-release there were plenty of people claiming Sprigatito was an Iberian lynx or smilodon when it's literally just a housecat.

>It's unfalsifiable, sure, but it's also plausible, which makes it fun to discuss.
There's nothing to discuss. "I think Rillaboom is a gigantopithecus because I have an autistic obsession with patterns", "Rillaboom isn't a gigantopithecus and has nothing at all in common with them." That's it. That's the discussion.

>>58165592
I don't think it's a dinosaur per se (and the patternfags claiming it's some obscure triassic reptile-mammal creature are definitely coping hard) but it's easy to see why people don't think of it as a frog since it barely looks like one. It just looks like some kind of nondescript quadrupedal reptile-thing with warts, the "frog legs" are barely even noticeable especially on the 2D backsprites where all you can see is the flower and they're completely absent from Bulbasaur and especially Ivysaur which just have almost mammalian legs.

It's definitely more of some kind of frog/reptile/monster hybrid creature compared to like Froakie which is just a frog or even older designs like Politoed. And when people see "big reptile" they think dinosaur, that's probably why the localizers gave it the name in the first place instead of Venutoad or whatever.

>>58165827
>They are never going to make a starter that isn't obviously an animal so this is irrelevant.
why?

>>58166532
I explained exactly why. All the most popular pokemon are the ones based on animals, GF knows this, and GF wants starters to be popular.

>>58164794 (OP)
oh, anon... the theory is still on, and you can thank the mongols and plausibly the persians in the case of fuecoco, as well as the turks in the case of cyndaquil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Chinese_zodiac

>>58166658
It says right there that crocodile takes the dragon spot, but that's already Charizard.

>>58166658
This is the kind of schizo nonsense I’ve come to expect from zodiacfags desu, just cherry picking to cram things into holes for the sake of their autism

>>58164794 (OP)
Maybe they had a pattern, but since they ran out if ideas and gamefreak turned into a soulless cashgrab decades ago, they discontinued it. Ever thought about that?

>>58165445
>>58165586
you can be sure that if it does happen it'll be for something like greece and end up bipedal because minotaur
which could be cool but also a shame

>>58165384
literally 2/3 didn’t exist in the second set of games without massive stretching, and i don’t even particularly believe sceptile is specifically prehistoric either. the very foundation is unimaginably shaky

>>58166789
>and i don’t even particularly believe sceptile is specifically prehistoric either
Patternfags are stupid but we know from the teraleak that Grovyle was literally a flying-type Archeopteryx-like Pokemon before being reworked into Treecko's evolution, the line absolutely has dinosaur inspiration.

>>58164794 (OP)
>while water starters never truly had a trend
It's weapons.

>>58165604
>doesn't jump like a frog

>>58166899
stupid theory that involves massive reaches for gens 2, 3, 7, and 9

>>58165604
>ignoring everything else I never understood where people got frog from
It's literally a bullfrog. That's why it's half Poison.

>>58166658
>we could have had a whale fire starter
That would be KINO, imagine a humpback whale with a volcano for the hump on its back.
>140 HP
>70 atk
>70 def
>110 spatk
>90 spdef
>50 spd
>fire/rock or fire/ground
>hidden ability: white smoke
>gets calm mind and shore up
Would be KINO
>first stage is a finless porpoise that jumps around with fire boosts
>dolphin middle stage boosts itself around with fire rings
KINO

>>58167004
>>58167275
weird, but alright

>>58166658
imagine if we slowly started filling this out until it was full and they started releasing zodiac promotional material

>>58167004
they didn't start animating it like a frog until LGPE and new snap

>>58169930
how was it animated before?

>>58164794 (OP)
It's ok, anon.
I also miss the Dream Vs Time travel posts because it was the only moments /vp/ talked about the plot of a Pokemon Game.

>but then we got the cocodile.

God this was a great day for /vp/. The copium deposits were depleted.

>>58166876
I wonder why the beta rs sprites all looked so low quality

>>58171797
>why does the beta look worse than the final release

>>58171810
sure but that was apparently a full design

>>58171810
that's dumb

>>58166658
It's called Chinese Zodiac for a reason.

>>58165604
>>58169930
>>58170814
https://sprites.pmdcollab.org/#/0001?form=0
In PMD, Bulbasaur hops like a frog would.

>>58172758
Can you link some stadium animations that might show the early design decisions?

>>58172817
I'm not sure why you wanna keep digging deeper on this idea that they suddenly decided the Bulbasaur line would become a frog at some arbitrary point. It was a frog since day one, the only reason anyone thought it wasn't a frog was because of the localization.

>>58165445
Why did it just learn screech....

>>58172817
Tmk it's always been a frog

>>58164825
The fun is in everybody deciphering the patterns and then seeing the end result.

>>58172836
>I'm not sure why you wanna keep digging deeper on this idea that they suddenly decided the Bulbasaur line would become a frog at some arbitrary point.
I'm not, I'm just curious

>>58172840
geg would even be reasonable imo

>>58172851
Itsonly because people here are super autistic about it being s frog and it rucks their autistic little brains up. Probably a porn thing.

>>58172847
That only makes sense if there's an actual pattern, zodiacfagging is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole as evidenced by all the leaps of logic people had to make to justify it.

>>58172859
Zodiac theory was entirely reasonable up til gen 9.
>gen 1 coincidence
>gen 2 coincidence
>gen 3 they notice, might slightly influence picking their rooster design, potentially taking that proto latias/blaziken beta design to finish the rooster starter they had already been considering
>gen 4 they decide to reference son goku after someone suggests a monkey next, or vice versa
>gen 5 they reference chinese literature again with another zodiac rep
>gen 6 they go down the list and decide a fox would work
>gen 7 they go down the list and decide a tiger would work
>gen 8 they go down the list and decide a rabbit would work
>this is all fine and explains why there was a disconnect between gen 5 and later for design considerations for the fire starters
>by gen 9 though, someone in the company decides to break the pattern
>or, more likely, it was a coincidence... just a series of crazy coincidences
It's a very fun angle.

>>58164794 (OP)
>but then we got the cocodile.
it's based on a dragon horse. from chinese mythology. the closest analogue for that is a crocodile

>>58173001
this is true, satoru iwata told me himself
he also said water starters WERE based on weapons, they just kept fudging it because they couldn't come up with anything for a couple gens here and there

>>58166658
geg

maybe the REAL chinese zodiac theory was the friends we made along the way.

>>58164794 (OP)
>be wrong
>be proven wrong
>still try to stretch to fit your headcanon
>do this for years

Zodiacfags were and always will be cancer and everyone calling them retards while the few left are arguing whether an alligator counts as a snake or a bull is the perfect way this could have ended.

>>58174122
It is a reptile though

>>58174160
Yeah. And it's an animal too. And you know what else are animals? Zodiac animals!

AND IT'S ALIVE TOO! LIKE THE ZODIAC ANIMALS! IT EATS AND IT BREATHE JUST LIKE THE ZODIAC SIGNS!
Woooow coincidences like that are crazy

>>58174122
>>be wrong
have a compelling argument for 8 gens
>>be proven wrong
be proven wrong
>>still try to stretch to fit your headcanon
make jokes to cope
>>do this for years
do this for years

fixed

>>58174239
THIS it fits perfectly. Zodiac theory confirmed.

>>58174540
6/9 is abysmal, i’m not letting you count fennekin, cyndaquil, or fuecoco

>>58175057
>i’m not letting you count fennekin, cyndaquil, or fuecoco
fennekin is as close to a dog as necessary, it's REALLY dumb to split hairs when "ermmmmm foxes aren't dogs" would also work for "ermmmmmm lions aren't cats" or "ermmmmm turtles aren't tortoises", it's a meaningless distinction when it comes to inspiration and design.
Cyndaquil is directly based on the hinezumi (fire mouse) and in japanese the animal is called a needlemouse, it'd be like claiming a western author making a seahorse draw a carriage has nothing to do with real horses. It's silly.
Fuecoco broke the pattern, obviously. 8/9.

>>58175069
>be proven wrong
>still try to stretch to fit your headcanon

>>58175102
Truth: Cyndaquil was based on the Hinezumi
Truth: foxes are close enough to dogs for them to have served as inspiration, if it were on the cards
You cannot say these are untrue just because the zodiac theory was wrong.

>>58164794 (OP)
>it was really fun
if annoying and retarded is fun to you, then sure

>>58174540
The line was broken in gens 2 and 6.
You were told this and went on for years.

>>58175452
>be proven wrong
>still try to stretch to fit your headcanon

>>58175478
What I said cannot even be interpreted as headcanon. The rationale made sense, even though it ended up being wrong.

>>58175509
>be proven wrong almost immediately
>cope and say you weren’t proven wrong til later

>>58175524
I got proven wrong, but the rationale was fine. These two things can happen at the same time.

>>58175582
>I got proven wrong, but the rationale was fine. These two things can happen at the same time.

>>58175624
but that is true, it's how people come to false conclusions all the time. If you're presented with a pattern, you recognize the pattern. If the pattern just happened to not fit, that would just mean you were wrong, not that your logic was off. If I tell you a pattern starts with "Abcde..." your next guess is gonna be F under any other situation. But no, I was talking about the name Abcde Redford, the girl who popularized the name, leading to over 400 girls named that since then. It's a stupid name, it's dumb that such an obvious pattern was broken, but hey them's the breaks.

>>58175885
>obvious pattern

>>58175959
yes? you telling me that a perceived 8 zodiac animals in a row isn't an obvious pattern?

>>58175971
>1, skip, 3, skip, 1 is now 8 in a row

>>58176004
>1, skip, 3, skip, 1 is now 8 in a row
how do you even manage this?
>charizard
yes
>cyndaquil
yes, objectively, only westerners don't count it, and japs designed it
>blaziken
yes
>infernape
literally HOW could you possibly claim skip, monkey is in the zodiac
>emboar
in the zodiac
>fennekin
oh nooooooo pokemon using something from a similar family instead of distinguishing oh boo hoo, if you asked them whether they thought hyenas were more closely related to dogs or cats I wonder where they'd put it? they don't care, that's where, because they made a dog evolve into a hyena. They also made an antlion evolve into a dragon. Foxes are close enough to dogs for inspo.
>litten
literally a cat with tiger stripes. Zodiac.
>scorbunny
guess who else is in the zodiac?
>conclusion
yes, we got 8 in a row, and you're legitimately dumb for arguing otherwise.

>>58176028
>only westerners don't count it
Only westerners care about this stupid bullshit

>>58176090
Did you have literacy problems growing up? As a mouse. I'm obviously discussing whether it fits in the pattern... with topics previously discussed for context even.

>>58176028
i didn’t mean gen 1, gen 3, gen 1 again, what fucking sense would that make, neanderthal? i meant 1 zodiac pokemon, then they skipped it, then 3 zodiac pokemon, then skipped it again. i did mistype and say 1 instead of 2 after that last skip. they’ve made enough dog pokemon that i don’t see a reason to think if they wanted to do the chinese zodiac, they’d half ass a dog

>>58176563
>they’ve made enough dog pokemon that i don’t see a reason to think if they wanted to do the chinese zodiac, they’d half ass a dog
>they've made enough dog pokemon that I don't see a reason they wouldn't try and branch out into other similar animals instead of retreading the same ground

>>58176916
they made a dog the very next generation. and then again in galar. and two in paldea

>>58164893
which one do you prefer tho

>>58176136
The point is that if zodiacfaggotry held any substance the Japs would be all over it. Instead it relies on a mistranlation of Cyndaquil's species category and a complete misunderstanding of the role of foxes in Chinese and Japanese folklore.

>>58176927
so that means they HAVE to make it my mom's dog instead of doing literally whatever they want with it??

>>58178596
>it relies on a mistranlation of Cyndaquil's species category
hinezumi = fire mouse
needlemouse
it is a mouse according to japan
>and a complete misunderstanding of the role of foxes in Chinese and Japanese folklore.
you can't claim that japs and chinks are incapable of seeing foxes as close enough to dogs to fill the same role. They literally do that all the time just like we do in the west with our myths relating to foxes. They are not the same animal but if someone said "hey we want to do a dog this time any ideas" and someone replied "how about a fox based on blah blah" YOU'D be the weird one for complaining about it...

>>58179034
Once again, the actual Japanese pokemon fans don't see it that way. You are relying on a Western misunderstanding.

>>58179169
>Once again, the actual Japanese pokemon fans don't see it that way.
https://zukan.pokemon.co.jp/detail/0155
I don't know how you can do much worse than this when it comes down to it, dude.

>>58164794 (OP)
This thread is a great example of why I don’t. Just pure autistic squabbling.

>>58164794 (OP)
You may have autism

>>58179318
Another mistranslation.
Again, if Cyndaquil was actually a mouse and Delphox was actually a dog in Japan surely some of those Japanese fans would've caught on to this Zodiac theory? Instead no one outside of the west cares about it because it relies on Western misconceptions.

>>58179338
>Another mistranslation.
literally how could you interpret that this way
>Again, if Cyndaquil was actually a mouse and Delphox was actually a dog in Japan surely some of those Japanese fans would've caught on to this Zodiac theory? Instead no one outside of the west cares about it because it relies on Western misconceptions.
How would we go about polling them exactly? And why would them noticing the pattern or not make it more or less reasonable? The facts have been laid out very clearly:
>gen 1: dragon
>gen 2: mouse
>gen 3: rooster
>gen 4: monkey
>gen 5: pig/boar
>gen 6: dog
>gen 7: tiger/cat
>gen 8: rabbit
>gen 9: crocodile, whoops, broke the pattern
gens 1-8 conform to it very, very readily. That's all it takes for it to have been reasonable.

>>58179357
>literally how could you interpret that this way
You're relying on literal machine translation which is always very inaccurate for Japanese and the official Pokemon localization which has always been full of holes especially 25 years ago. "Hinezumi" does not actually mean "fire mouse" in the same way "hedgehog" does not actually mean "bush pig".
>How would we go about polling them exactly?
Japan does not have some secret second internet.
>And why would them noticing the pattern or not make it more or less reasonable?
Because they are the people who actually know the language and culture that your argument relies on? If Cyndaquil was actually a mouse in Japan and Fennekin was really close enough to a dog then inevitably some of the millions of Japanese Pokemon fans would've noticed that "hey, these fire starters line up perfectly with the zodiac system that is literally still a part of our culture and that we interact with every holiday season". But they don't, because the pattern is blatantly false and these connections only make sense to a Westerner that doesn't understand Japanese language or culture but does have plenty of motivated reasoning.

>>58166548
>GF wants starters to be popular.
gf wants one starter per gen to be popular and doesn't give a fuck about the other 2
even in gens where all starters end up popular they still display clear favoritism (blaziken having the best hidden ability by far and getting a mega a year before the others)

>>58179425
>even in gens where all starters end up popular they still display clear favoritism (blaziken having the best hidden ability by far and getting a mega a year before the others)
Meanwhile in reality Sceptile is the one that got all the attention in the anime and Swampert has been by far the strongest of the trio for their entire existence with the sole exception of gen 5.

>>58179411
>"Hinezumi" does not actually mean "fire mouse"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%81%AB%E9%BC%A0

>Japan does not have some secret second internet.
I have never been to 2ch and I'm not even sure which one is the right one to ask on, since you seem to know how about you go ask them?
>>58179411
>Because they are the people who actually know the language and culture that your argument relies on?
you are implacable dude, if a jap said that they believed the theory was true you'd just start yelling about how it never made sense and foxes are not dogs etc etc. You're moving goalposts AND grasping at straws.
>If Cyndaquil was actually a mouse in Japan
directly based on fire mouse
>and Fennekin was really close enough to a dog
it is conceptually considering gf has mixed various unrelated species for inspiration before
>then inevitably some of the millions of Japanese Pokemon fans would've noticed
no guarantee
>"hey, these fire starters line up perfectly with the zodiac system that is literally still a part of our culture and that we interact with every holiday season".
you may have simply not heard it if they did
>But they don't,
ok prove it, go ask them, because I do not care either way but it seems important to you so let me know what they say
>because the pattern is blatantly false
uh yeah we've been over this fuecoco broke it, I was saying that it was reasonable for gens 1-8 where it was entirely reasonable
>and these connections only make sense to a Westerner that doesn't understand Japanese language or culture but does have plenty of motivated reasoning.
Oh so you understand their culture so much better than me? When you're not even familiar with their own myths and legends that I'm literally linking you to?

>>58179467
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.

>>58179477
the problem is that guy drank lead in water

>>58179713 (You)

>>58165455
Oh come on, its a bit on the nose isn't it? The region is based on Hawaii and the grass starter is a long legged owl with ghost typing. And Hawaii has extinct owls with long legs. Its not some complicated schizo theory...