>PAL N64's can output NTSC video just fine
>Not a single game had a 50/60Hz switch
>Dreamcast
>99% of PAL releases had a 60Hz toggle on startup
>GameCube
>Most PAL releases had 60Hz support and some even had NO 50Hz support
>Xbox
>99% of PAL releases were 60Hz if enabled in system settings
>PS2
>Most PAL releases had no 60Hz support, even where the Xbox and GameCube versions of the same game did
Why were the European offices for N64 and PS2 conversions so fucking lazy? N64 I can understand, but there's no excuse for Tony Hawk being stuck at 50Hz on PS2 when every other console in PALfaggia got to play it at American speeds.

>>11790473 (OP)
PAL N64 and Gamecube don't actually output NTSC, they do a weird PAL60 mode that has some major compatibility issues. Gamecube at least has RGB cables to resolve this but on N64 there's no real good solutions besides getting lucky with third party adapters.
And if you think not including a 50/60hz switch is lazy, have a look at what N64 devs ended up actually doing. Big ass letterboxed borders and worse framerates simply because the devs did not give a single shit about Europe.
Worst offender is without a doubt Ocarina of Time. It runs at an abysmal 20fps in the NTSC version, but an even worse 18fps on PAL simply because Nintendo couldn't be arsed to do literally any work.

>>11790478
>OoT
At least the music plays at full speed
Have you ever experienced PAL Sonic 1?

>>11790473 (OP)
So teh dc wuz in fact teh furst one that did it?

>>11790478
>18fps on PAL
That's even worse than it sounds because 18 isn't a factor of 50. The frame pacing must've been awful.

>>11790473 (OP)
Who gives a shit? Just emulate.
This board would be a lot better if it was actually about old games rather than pretending you still live in the 90s.

>>11790473 (OP)
PS2 outputs actual NTSC. To people used to PAL, NTSC looks so horrific that we would rather suffer 50hz. As such there is no point bothering with 60hz options for PS2 because basically nobody would use them. And yes I know RGB was a thing, but basically nobody had that.

>>11790487
>To people used to PAL, NTSC looks so horrific that we would rather suffer 50hz
False. Slow games are shite. And if you really cared about picture quality that much then you would've just used component cables instead of championing the virtues of PAL composite.

>>11790478
>buying PAL Gamecube RGB cables
I'm not one of the five richest kings of Europe, anon.

>>11790481
Eh. It's not about integers but refreshes per frame. Ocarina updates the frame every 3 refreshes in both the NTSC and PAL versions, which is 20fps in NTSC and 16.67 FPS in PAL. The frame persistence was still consistent.

>>11790484
>Just emulate
Okay! Let me emulate this Japanese game that never released in America, but has an English version available in Europe! Oh, my FMV's are choppy and the whole framebuffer has been scaled to fill a taller screen!

>>11790489
In my experience, PAL composite actually looks better than RGB. RGB always looked a little soft to me, blurry even. And I have tried this on multiple TVs.

>>11790503
Idk about SCART but have you tried ypbpr or s-video?

>>11790491
PAL GameCube does not have a digital video output which uses the most expensive component video cables on Earth. PAL GameCube RGB SCART cables are as common as RGB SCART cables for other consoles.

>>11790494
>Ocarina
>which is 20fps in NTSC and 16.67 FPS in PAL
I'm "fine" with 20 as it's an old game, but for fucks sake that 16 fps is actively harming the experience. I know, I just replayed it with that framerate.

>>11790478
>they do a weird PAL60 mode that has some major compatibility issues
That's why refresh rate select screens almost always have an option to test 60Hz mode for 15 seconds before confirming it.

>>11790497
If you’re talking about Siren 2, it emulates perfectly in software mode with PCSX2. I didn’t experience anything different from the US version of Siren 1 aside from running at 25 FPS because lolPAL

>>11790527
>both Forbidden Siren games are 50Hz only
What the hell, Capcom, I thought we were friends? Most of your games have a 60Hz switch.

>>11790487
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSSYo0npMhA
https://youtu.be/J9Q4f3H3A-E?si=KjtYd5c1tq14R_5n&t=136

Bullshit. Finding out about this was a soul crushing experience. I still remember reading Australian gaming magazines back in the early 2000s talking about how actually we don't need more than 50hz because the eye sees in 50hz! And all sorts of other bullshit we were being fed and we didn't know we were playing "drunk" versions of games.

Maybe if euros didn’t have such a fuck shit tv standard then this wouldn’t be an issue.

>>11790549
I distinctly remember playing on my PS2. I think the game was Burnout 3, anyway it had a 60hz option and I tried it. On seeing how terrible it looked at vomited, switched it back to 50Hz, and never bothered with 60hz again. Its a shame the PS2 did not output PAl60.

>>11790552
PAL and SECAM TV signals are objectively superior to NTSC TV signal. It's just absolutely none of their advantages are relevant to playing video games on a device located right next to a TV.

>>11790553
>be me
>see that 60 is a bigger number
>select it solely because of that

>>11790548
>Capcom
It’s an SCE game directed by the director and writer or Silent Hill

>>11790491
>le official ones are the only ones huuur
idiot, just get one from european vendors

>>11790559
of Silent Hill*

>>11790559
My bad, a legitimate mistake on my part. I've confused Forbidden Siren 2 with Glass Rose, which is also a horror game released only in Asia and PALand.

>>11790556
Sorry but I can’t read your post without imagining you deep throating a scart cable.

Fun fact: USSR had experimented with NTSC color television broadcasting in 1950s before discarding it as unsuitable for long distances necessary in Eurasia. God knows how European video games would (literally) look like, had the USSR enforced NTSC on all Warsaw Pact members, like they did with SECAM.

>>11790570
Oral sex is fun, what can I say.

>>11790473 (OP)
Our consoles had a switch on the back.

>>11790497
You could have just learned JP.
T. Eurofag

>>11790552
>>11790556
Everyone on the globe has a TV that outputs 1080p now.

>>11790473 (OP)
To be honest as long as the game runs at corect speed it doesn't matter if it's 50Hz or 60Hz and a lot of PS2 games are PAL optimized.

>>11790746
It matters cause 50Hz strobing is noticeable

>>11790517
Whut, pal gamecube does have digital out. I know because mine has it

>>11790751
People watched PAL TV broadcasts for half a century and never had any issues with 50Hz

>>11790751
Only on computer screens.

>>11790826
It makes no difference whether it's a TV or a desktop monitor because CRT's don't have a backlight, and thus can only deliver light to your eyes at the screen's own refresh rate; 50Hz is well below the CFF (flicker threshold) and thus blackness inbetween frames is noticeable.

>>11790838
>It makes no difference whether it's a TV or a desktop monitor
It does. Phosphor isn't a single, common thing. Different tubes use different persistence characteristics. Desktop monitors tend to use low persistence phosphors because they were designed for 75Hz and up whereas TVs, especially PAL TVs use higher persistence phosphors because they are designed for interlaced video. Need to have that previous frame linger just a bit to make the flicker less noticeable. Things get tricky when you use PVM/BVM tubes where sharpness is preferred over something that's easy on the eyes. Later CRTs were designed for 100Hz double scanning so they can get a bit flickery if you turn that off.

>>11790869
Anything brighter than grey has been absolute shite for me at 50Hz, across multiple televisions

I pine to go back to a time (not that long ago) when two continents used different frequencies for old TVs and no one really cared what the difference was.

>>11790878
if it's absolute shite at 50Hz then it's still gonna be major shite at 60Hz. It ain't that much difference.

>>11790558
Me too.

I knew one kid who picked 50hz. I tried to tell him. He owned one of those nintendo gaycubes. Died years later from ass aids from getting fucked in the ass by gays. Shame it had to go that way.

>>11790881
Reject globally released consumer products, embrace local microcomputer homebrew scene.

>>11790497
>switches emulator BIOS to PAL
heh, nothing personnel..

>>11790819
because they had no alternatives so you mentally filter it out.

>>11790881
if only would could figure out a way to make the internet incompatible across borders..

>>11790473 (OP)
People have posted on this board how much difficulty they've had with NTSC ROMs on a PAL N64...

>>11791179
Filter what out?

Do PAL PS2/3 and GameCube/Wii games not run at the same speed as NTSC even at 50Hz? I've never noticed a speed difference between them like with N64 games.

I've always assumed in 6th gen they made the game speed independent from the video frequency. Not sure how they would do that but it doesn't seem impossible.

>>11790473 (OP)
most of psx games too are in 60hz (1998-2002)

>>11790473 (OP)
>>PS2
>>Most PAL releases had no 60Hz support, even where the Xbox and GameCube versions of the same game did
LYING
I had doznes of ps2 games (clock tower and others ones) and I can assure you that you can play it on 60hz, every capcom game on ps2 at least.

>>11791356
https://www.benoitren.be/60hz-palps2.html
Capcom games indeed mostly support 60Hz. Unfortunately, they were outliers, together with Sega and SNK.

>>11790885
No, because flicker isn't visible at 60Hz

>>11791784
for console babies, maybe.
on the pc world you would always use at least 70hz to avoid flicker.
60hz was a flickering mess on crt monitors.

>>11791790
Yes no shit console babies didn't see flicker at 60Hz, in fact this happens to be a thread about console games, given desktop monitors in PAL regions operated at the correct refresh rate long before home console games had 60Hz functionality.

>>11790473 (OP)
>PAL N64's can output NTSC video just fine
not true

>>11791790
That's because on PC you mostly have static images which CRTs suck at.
Even 70Hz has noticeable flicker if it's just displaying a static desktop

>>11791790
I think CRT TV's had more persistence than monitors which is why the flickering is more evident

>>11791790
> 60hz was a flickering mess on crt monitor
You get used to it. Its like a right of passage. Forcing yourself to stare into the flicker until you don't see it anymore. I am using a 60hz CRT right now, and I don't see any flicker.

>>11791790
>>11792330
I was born in 91 so I was too young and retarded to care about refresh rates in the CRT days, but is 70Hz the reason why the original version of Doom is capped at exactly 35 FPS (because it's exactly half)?

>>11791192
I've literally had zero issues running US roms on my Australian N64 via a flash cart

>>11792485
They run sure, but the clock rate is wrong

>>11792473
Yes, the standard video resolution for DOS games on VGA video cards was 320x200@70Hz. Remember that Doom was a demanding game at the time and not every computer was ready to run it at full speed, so calculating game logic on every second frame was a smart concession. Later, with the adoption of Windows and SVGA video cards, 640x480@60Hz became a new standard, with 10Hz being sacrificed in favor of 80 additional vertical scanlines, making 4:3 aspect ratio with square pixels possible.

>>11792495
Who cares?

>>11790491
Anon, just like how Earthbound on SNES didn't originally sell for $300-400+, the GC component cables didn't originally sell for hundreds either, that anon was clearly talking about what people were using back when GameCube was still relevant. There are also much cheaper 3rd party options now, though IMO there is little reason to not just use a Wii instead to play GC games, it's 100% the same as playing them on a GC.

I was thinking of taking a JP 60 GB phat PS3 and put CFW on it, I was wondering though, do they accept PAL DVDs (ps2 games or just films/series) if the system is hacked? It doesn't work out of the box I know that

>>11792636
Just put the ps2 isos into the ps2 isos folder and they will work. It's all region free.

>>11792643
Okay, but I have physical ps2 PAL games, I simply want to know if they work, same as some films that I have on DVD

>>11792648
For PAL DVDs you may have to change the region in the debug menu. Physical PAL games will work too.

>>11792659
okay, thanks

>>11792636
Yes, hacked PS3's are completely region-free. I'd be more worried about the 100V power the Japanese PS3 will expect; UK outlets push 230V.

>>11792516
Anyone who wants to play the games at the correct speed?

>>11792675
Does fat PS3 has external or internal PSU?
If it's extarnal you can just replace the PSU.

>>11792726
Whatever speed I want is the correct speed.

>>11792732
Internal. Though they are relatively simple to replace.

>>11792742
Probably also displays the wrong colours

>>11791281
>I've always assumed in 6th gen they made the game speed independent from the video frequency. Not sure how they would do that but it doesn't seem impossible.
It's not impossible, it's just less common than you'd like. Game devs basically didn't figure it out until physics happened. Physics simulations need rather high tick rates to work properly, can't be doing them at 1/60. You ever seen a game that has a low/med/high for "physics?" That's what it's doing, 250Hz, 500Hz, 1000Hz... Other things like AI that's probably much lower, 100Hz or less. And then the rendering is doing based on the current time, so whatever the current game state is + a motion vector of (currentTime - simulatedTick)/frameTickLength.
Before physics most game devs didn't bother and stuck to their vsync game logic. As with most things, the majority won't change until the old system breaks so hard they can't use it anymore.

>>11792774
Fun fact: PAL TVs usually don't use the HUE knob as the PAL signal is not suffering from color shift like NTSC sometimes does.

Funniest thing is how the laziest option was actually the best solution
Add a 50/60hz switch on the console options menu
Then tell publishers not to waste their time with proper 50hz optimizations and voila

Instead we were left with people being forced to either mod or use something akin to a action replay to force the system into 60hz mode.
This didn't always work because some games were optimized for 50hz.
That's a funny topic in of itself
Very few publishers did a proper 50hz adaption
Then we have the mind boggling half assed optimization good examples are Resident Evil Saturn PAL and FFX PAL.
You see the gameplay isn't properly adapted for 50hz its slower but, the cutscenes are properly synced for 50hz I shit you not.

>>11792675
From what I've seen everybody say, they seem to have 100 - 240 v transformers so there shouldn't be a problem

Sonic Adventure 25th Anniversary pasta

>Dreamcast
Flycast
https://flyinghead.github.io/flycast-builds/
Sonic Adventure (US, 1.005)
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Sega%20-%20Dreamcast/Sonic%20Adventure%20%28USA%29%20%28En%2CJa%2CFr%2CDe%2CEs%29%20%28Rev%20A%29.zip
Sonic Adventure DC-HD patch on flycast emulator (60 FPS, widescreen)
https://gitlab.com/PiKeyAr/dreamcast-image-builder/
Sonic Adventure 2 (US, 1.008)
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Sega%20-%20Dreamcast/Sonic%20Adventure%202%20%28USA%29%20%28En%2CJa%2CFr%2CDe%2CEs%29.zip

>Gamecube
Sonic Heroes
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Nintendo%20-%20GameCube%20-%20NKit%20RVZ%20%5Bzstd-19-128k%5D/Sonic%20Heroes%20%28USA%29%20%28En%2CJa%2CFr%2CDe%2CEs%2CIt%29.zip
Shadow
https://myrient.erista.me/files/Redump/Nintendo%20-%20GameCube%20-%20NKit%20RVZ%20%5Bzstd-19-128k%5D/Shadow%20the%20Hedgehog%20%28USA%29%20%28En%2CJa%2CFr%2CDe%2CEs%2CIt%29.zip

>Windows PC
Sonic Adventure DX (NOT the Steam release)
https://archive.org/download/sadx-disc-1-2
SADX Mod Installer
https://sadxmodinstaller.unreliable.network/
SA2 Render Fix
https://github.com/shaddatic/sa2b-render-fix

>List of available Sonic Adventure (+DX) builds. SA1 can barely manage 30 fps on Dreamcast and had performance issues thanks to it using its own lighting engine, which is probably a huge factor into why SA2 runs at 60
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/09/03/list-of-available-sonic-adventure-builds/

>Blog examines the differences between Dreamcast, Gamecube and PC versions of Sonic Adventure, focusing on changes in the Gamecube and PC ports that can be considered downgrades from the original Dreamcast
https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/category/level-specific-downgrades/

>Sonic Adventure 2 Comparison: 700+ Changes from Dreamcast to Gamecube (20th Anniversary special)
https://youtu.be/3NWAbtnfy2Y

>>11790478
>some major compatibility issues
works for me

>>11792726
Looks like they play at the correct speed to me

>>11793460
Based
PC SADX fixed with SADX Mod Installer is arguably the best way to play SA1 these days. Basically makes it the Dreamcast version but 60 FPS, widescreen, and even has the special holiday DLC and shit
It's great

>>11792880
>tell publishers not to waste their time with proper 50hz optimizations
That already happened, though. Worse than incorrect framerates. 99% of PAL games run at the incorrect speeds, and that's without any 60Hz support whatsoever.

>>11793539
If you feel that way then that’s good

>>11793101
I don't know about Japanese PS3's but my PAL Slim and Super Slim say 220-240V on the sticker.

>>11794195
It seems almost all of them can do 110 to 240 volt and a few others are simply 220 - 240 volt
https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/Power_Supply

>>11794219
I see. So, certain Fat models have 220-240V power supplies but the rest are universal? That's cool

>>11792854
Are you confusing PAL with RGB?

>>11794480
nta but PAL doesn't have color shift like NTSC.

PAL was designed to fix those issues NTSC had.

>>11794487
PAL is just a different frequency, the fix comes from the fact it’s a higher resolution
But that doesn’t mean that hue is not used in calibration of the display

>>11794494
No, that's completely wrong.
PAL and NTSC are different color encodings for composite video.

You can have PAL@60Hz and NTSC@50Hz if you want.

>>11790575
Nobody would have cared since in the 90s it was only the Western European PAL countries that vidya was being sold in.

>muh dendy

Noone cares.

>>11794503
PAL60 is NTSC4.43
It’s just another hack and not a real standard and it also has its own problems

>>11794512
Nope.
It's a completely different signal, encoded in a different way.

Please just take five minutes and look it up instead of spouting this nonsense.

>>11794526
I’m sorry anon but PAL60 is just shit

>>11794530
I don't care. The signals are still different.

>>11794534
And I'm telling you, you'll have the same issues at 240p with PAL60 that you do with NTSC

PAL60 is shit BECAUSE it has better image quality than NTSC. I HATE DITHERING I HATE DITHERING I HATE DITHERING I HATE DITHERING

>>11794530
so is NTSC

RGB or death

>>11794551
You don't.

Here. Took me 10 seconds to look up:
>NTSC receivers have a tint control to perform colour correction manually. If this is not adjusted correctly, the colours may be faulty. The PAL standard automatically cancels hue errors by phase reversal, so a tint control is unnecessary yet Saturation control can be more useful. Chrominance phase errors in the PAL system are cancelled out using a 1H delay line resulting in lower saturation, which is much less noticeable to the eye than NTSC hue errors.

>>11794554
is PAL composite about as good as NTSC S-Video? How good is PAL S-Video?

>>11790478
>they do a weird PAL60 mode that has some major compatibility issues

I've yet to see a single TV that couldn't run PAL60 mode. Even some AV gear specifically mentions being able to do PAL60 (but they call it something else like PAL 3.58MHz).

>>11794571
It must be day and night like these build in dvd player into tvs

>>11794592

>>11794589
Doesn't basically every PAL set made in the 90's onwards support 60Hz completely?

>>11790869
Practically every color CRT uses the same P22 type phosphors. There were some minor variations in composition but the decay characteristics are always the same: fast green and blue, medium red. PAL televisions looked like flickery garbage. NTSC flickered too but it was more tolerable.

There's one platform which actually handles game speed difference between regions on hardware level, ensuring that PAL and NTSC hardware play games identically.
Philips CD-i.

>>11790881
American website. American Internet.

>>11796115
Kitchen sets were still 50hz only even in the early 00's. Basically the cheapest low budget sets that people would buy for a kitchen.... or precisely for a kid's room.

>>11790473 (OP)
>Why were the European offices for N64 and PS2 conversions so fucking lazy?

First of all, the firsts to enforce a mandatory 60HZ policy was Sega with the Dreamcast.
Before the Dreamcast, before 1999, this topic was basically never brought up except in a loose corner in a magazine or two. So you can't blame previous consoles for it, the Dreamcast pushed that debate forward.

as for
>European officies
wtfamIreading
It's amazing to me that in 2025, on /vr/, we still have so many people with such wild misconceptions about game development. 99% of all PAL conversions were made by the original devs (it's the same with translations btw, another misconception I often see, the likes of Working Design were an exception, NOT the norm) be it in Japan, US or wherever. There were no "European offices" except for publishing offices.

As for the state of PAL games on the PS2, yeah it was shit, and since reviewers and players had tasted 60hz with the Dreamcast, the likes of Final Fantasy X or Devil May Cry which were 50hz only (with no proper conversion) were rightfully shat on at the time.

>>11794595
interesting, I knew about World, but I didn't know 64 also had more shown on the screen

>>11798125
>99% of all PAL conversions were made by the original devs
What the fuck was their problem then? Why include 60Hz support in GameCube and Xbox versions of the same game, but not on PS2?

>>11798145
IDK but there has to be a reason, seeing as the PS2 came out 1 year before the XBOX and GC, it's possible that they didn't forsee the upcoming change and didn't enforce a 60hz policy while the others had the time to see the debacle of early PAL PS2 games like FFX and DMC and learn from it.
It's just speculation but it's possible Microsoft and Nintendo also copied Sega and enforced a 60hz policy after seeing PS2 games shat on for the 50hz (if even Squaresoft and Capcom could get bad reviews because of it, nobody was safe). Meaning the PS2 may have been the only console not enforcing 60hz.

>>11798162
I mean, there was no formal requirement by MS or Nintendo either as a lot of PAL releases for Xbox/GameCube didn't support 60Hz. I believe the guy who headed Halo CE's PAL conversion even apologised for how shoddy the PAL optimisation was.