(And, everybody maps their modern Sega pads wrong).
So, establishing common ground: consoles like the NES/PCE/etc (and most portable systems up to the GBA) have 2 face buttons, but a good chunk of their games use the Select button as a tertiary action in-game, so I think it's fair to say they were 3-button games/systems. The SMS really is the only true 2-button console AFAIK, since it didn't even have Select.
When the MD came about, its controller had 3 face buttons in a row but no Select - honestly a good trade. How games mapped these is what's interesting. It of course varied, but usually, it seems A and C would be both Confirm or straight up the same action, and B would be the secondary action/Cancel. If a game actually used all 3, then B and C would be the equivalent of the NES's B and A, while Sega's A is whatever Select would be on NES. The Power Base Converter even mapped the SMS's action buttons to B and C by default.
With the MD's "6-button pad", it really just existed for fighting game ports. Very few other games totally utilized it, and why would they - the XYZ buttons were so small and nubby!

(Cont.)

Then came the SFC and PSX, with 4 face buttons in a diamond. I think people also forgot how SFC games were often mapped; again it depended on the game, but very often, both A AND B would act as Confirm, while Y was Cancel, and typically Y+B would be the main buttons a game would use as an analog to NES's B+A. The tertiary action though could be X, but just as often felt like it'd be A instead. It's only starting with the DS that Nintendo stuck to A=Confirm B=Cancel like glue.
PSX games had the whole "CircleVsCross as Confirm" nonsense between regions, so many games used Triangle to Cancel, but otherwise games' actions felt more consistently mapped to Triangle+Square+Cross as their Sel+B+A.

So, where does that leave the Saturn pad? Honestly games seem to have continued prioritizing A+B+C as Sel+B+A, while the XYZ buttons (still nubby and small) were always very minor actions or menus. Compare the Saturn vs PSX controls for Grandia, for example: ABC were Triangle-Circle-Cross, X was Sel, Y was Square, and Z was L2/R2. Buttons that you consciously had to move your fingers away from their current position to reach.
That's not a 6-button controller, that's a 3-button controller with an extra three Select buttons!

So tell me why, when we're able to buy Sega controllers for modern PC/consoles, they map the typical 4button diamond to Sega's ABXY, when that's historically uncomfortable? A more sensible modern PS>Saturn mapping would be
>[L2] [Circle] [R2]
>[Triangle] [Square] [Cross]
But manufacturers don't even include built-in button remapping into their Sega controllers. I have to rely on Retroarch or Steam Input to swap the buttons, which is an imperfect solution.
Of course, this also wouldn't be an issue if modern Sega pads made ABC XYZ all the same size, so that the 4-button diamond COULD comfortably be mapped to Sega's ABXY, but that shit's never happening when they'd rather just recycle the same design and never improve it.

I map the diamond to BCYZ
X becomes select
Wish the saturn controller had a select button. I'd be able to play PS1 games without missing a button.

>>11866780
>But manufacturers don't even include built-in button remapping
Why would you need that? I can't think of a single thing I'd be using a saturn pad for that I can't fully remap any button I wanted. Also, x360ce exists.

>>11866779 (OP)
But what about the PC-FX controller? It even has them numbered.

>>11866779 (OP)
>there's no such thing as the thing in my image that absolutely 100% exists
this is the worst thread in months

Why is it impossible to have a controller with
>6 face buttons
>4 shoulder buttons
>start + select
>dpad
>2 clickable analogs

Even in controllers that supposedly have this setup at least two of the buttons will be fake ("macro" buttons or duplicates of another button or whatever)

>>11866876
What game necessitates such a layout

>>11866779 (OP)
Nah, you're just stupid OP, Sega had six face buttons all the way back in the 90s. Get wreck, faggot.

>>11866876
I'd like this.

>>11866902
pacman

>>11866779 (OP)
I knew this would be autistic as soon as I saw "MD"
Let's see if I've got this right
>Any non-directional button on a controller that wasn't conventionally a pause button could potentially be used as an action button, so for example NES had about 3 action buttons
>Sometimes those buttons didn't all do different things in a game.
>Sometimes a button in the same relative position did different things on different systems.
>Sometimes the same game would map controls to different relative position buttons on different systems, especially when they had different controller layouts
>OP really doesn't like small buttons

>>11866876
This is just purposeless button creep. I would've had more respect if the design was real deranged maximalism with xb1 elite back paddles and 8 face buttons for arcade. Post duke controller.

>>11866932
Ya, never claimed I wasn't being autistic about it :)
Pretty much. It was basically a lot of preamble to establish
>The XYZ on MD/Sat were basically never used as major inputs, they were even more than tertiary but I don't know if there's a word for that.
>The way people and manufacturers today map the typical 4-button diamond onto Sega pads is dumb, because not even 90s multiplat games mapped their inputs to Sega's ABXY.

>>11866779 (OP)
>There's no such thing as a 6-button controller

>>11866779 (OP)
I use an actual Saturn pad, an N64 pad, or a Hori Fighting Commander for PS1.

Bam, it's a genuine 6 button pad b/c it has 6 face buttons.

Another anecdote on button ergonomics: it's rare for SFC/SNES games to use 3 or 4 face buttons frequently, most stick to 2 and use X/A for less common actions, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.

Mainly thinking of Super Metroid (with default config). The game often expects you to hold B to run while also pressing A or X to jump or shoot, or all three, or A/X while not running. And also frequently while holding either of the shoulders (or both if you're using a hack with GBA-style missile toggle). This is actually pretty doable with a SNES controller, the face buttons are all perfectly sized and distanced from each-other, so you're not gonna be accidentally pressing one of the 3 buttons when you don't want to.

On a Sega-style pad (my M30 at least), this is kind of impossible. No combination of the 6 buttons can comfortably replicate that Super Metroid layout, I'm always having scenarios where I'm either accidentally pressing a face button with the edge of my thumb, or my hand's cramping by holding 2-3 of them while also holding down the R button.
To play devil's advocate, this is also a problem with other 4-button controllers. For example, my Xbox controller's face buttons are too close together for me to not accidentally press a button with my thumb's edge, and the B button being tilted with the controller's contour also doesn't help (Not that I'd want to use an Xbox controller for SM, just was the closest example to illustrate my point: SM is kind of designed specifically for the SNES pad's ergonomics).

(All of the above is a shame btw, because the Sega dpad is far and away my favorite. I'd be more than happy if there was a modern 4-button controller just with a rolling D-pad. Well, the ABC buttons are IMO the most comfortable for 3rd gen games at least with how big they are, so if it's usable for SOME SNES/PSX games but not all, I guess that's a bit of a win).

>>11866779 (OP)
>>11866780
Cool blog bro

>>11866779 (OP)
>>11866780
Thanks Grok

>>11866876
that's my controller

>>11866876
You only need 6 face buttons for Capcom fighters and you better off using specialized stick or fightpad for those anyway. For 99% of vidya four face buttons are enough.

I just think it's odd. 90s Sega games can pretty comfortably be mapped to a modern controller, since they mainly use the 3 largest buttons, if not only them. XYZ can always be mapped to the last face button, or Select, or the Triggers, etc. without much harm to muscle memory or ergonomics.
But, mapping a SNES or PSX action game to a Sega pad can be often uncomfortable.

>>11867398
I really wish this controller was good, I was looking forward to it so much.

>>11866876
>>11866904
Thirded. I thought everyone on here dreamed of this, but judging the other replies, apparently not.

>>11868570
What's wrong with it? I want one myself.
How does it compare to an original Saturn pad? Is the d-pad just as good?

>>11866779 (OP)
It's a 6 button layout, you smarmy cunt. It means 6 face buttons aligned next to each other, you know exactly what this means and you want to argue semantics for 500 posts. Fuck you.

>>11868609
yeah the d-pad feels exactly the same

>>11868609
The plastic pivot the dpad rests on is not built to last. Mine snapped clean off after six months of regular use.

>>11868609
small, joycons, and no analog triggers
people wanted picrel but retrobitch went
>t-that's not a saturn controller!

>>11868618
It's a 3-button controller with a smaller set of 3 buttons that were never used as primary action buttons, outside of fighting game ports.

>>11869768
I mean, I don't expect a saturn controller to have analog triggers. I want it if it's just an OEM saturn controller but with more buttons, and doesn't perform worse.

>>11868662
This sounds bad.

>>11870251
So a 6 button controller.

>>11870964
No, that's what this is

>>11866876
Fuck clickable analogs

>>11866779 (OP)
>>11866780
Thanks for the autistic info dump, OP. I never bothered with emulating Sega consoles since I was a nintenyearold as a kid, but later on when I became more curious about what I missed out on by never touching Sega I still avoided emulating their consoles because none of the controllers I had for my PC cleanly mapped to six buttons like that. It does make sense that only four buttons were ever meaningfully used on the Genesis now that I think about it, considering a lot of third party games would try to work on both it and the four-button SNES. With this knowledge I'll try again with getting into Sega emulation, probably with the control scheme that >>11866786 uses.

>>11871874
That last anon was talking about mapping PSX controls to a Sega pad, not the other way around lol.
If I were to map a modern 4-button controller to play Sega games, then it'd probably be something like
>North: A
>West: B
>South: C
>East: Y(/Z depending on game)
>Triggers: X and Z(/Y depending on game)
If it's a Saturn game that used the 3D Pad, then the last two buttons are mapped to the bumpers instead (as the 3D Pad and Dreamcast controller traded bumpers for analog triggers).

Six, lol.

>>11868609
I don't have experience with the analog version but the build quality is much shittier than the original. Feels hollow and plasticy, I've also heard what >>11868662 said. I just robbed the membranes and the 10ft cord for my originals. The triggers are not right at all is the worst thing about them. There's a springyness to the original before the click, and it's a soft high pitched click, whereas the microswitches on the triggers on the Retrobit version feel awful. Thankfully their Genesis controllers feel much better in comparison, but I still don't trust the D-pad. If anyone knows another 3rd party controller or a company that sells new buttons that make a good replacement D-pad, pls link.

I've seen the format in some recent handhelds but not many first party controllers

>>11875169
Yeah, both are kind of slacking hard with offering 6-button controls recently though.

Microsoft are reworking their os' for handhelds in order to compete with Steam. They are trying to cut bloat etc. Why not badger Phil Spencer to get rid of the limitations of Xinput? If enough people ask, they'll have to "restructure" it. Arguably the best time to ask while they're "reworking Winblows".

>>11866779 (OP)
Cool, but no one should buy controllers from 8Bitdo. For those who want something simple and inexpensive that usually works very well, I recommend Hori. The Switch version of the Fighting Commander has a highly praised d-pad (it seems that the PS4/5 version has an imprecise d-pad). If I were to buy a 6-button controller, I would probably choose that one.
The dpad on Hori controllers is usually good. And they outperform 8Bitdo in everything except features, since Hori controllers usually only have the most basic features to keep the price as low as possible (don't confuse low price with easily breakable, though, they are usually quite sturdy).

>>11877194
Horis are nice but I've had two and both lasted about three years each, the problem? Buttons go soft and gummy eventually

When I think about how I had Genesis controllers that lasted like 15 years before I sold it, that always annoys me about modern quality

>>11866876
fuck, I want this too

>There's no such thing as a 6 button controller
>Pictured, a six button controller
I'm not going to read your pseudo ramblings.

>>11877194
I believe you, but the biggest factor for me is the rolling Sega D-Pad. If it doesn't have it, then it's not for me. Also, it fuckin sucks how many of these are wired-only...
Also gaddamn, all of those button layout options are barfamungous. These layouts make sense for fighting games, and fighting games only.

>>11877409
Zoomers always trying to cut off their cord..

>>11877409
Weird that they changed it from the PS4 version where the left toggle is L1L2/R1R2. Still the worst shoulder buttons I've ever used.

>what is pic related
you can't argue that this was made for fighting games only because with the exception of that one virtua fighter port (which is a 3 button game btw) every fighting game on PC was absolute trash

So, 4/6-button layouts aside, what is the best all-purpose retro controller that's compatible with modern computers/consoles? Analog sticks not needed

>>11870919
>I mean, I don't expect a saturn controller to have analog triggers.
people complained that saturn racing games expecting the analog triggers from the 3d pad were completely unplayable

>>11866876
>t really just existed for fighting game ports. Very few other games totally utilized it, a