*sigh* Somehow, Sub-Zero has returned.

Why do autists care so much about the lore of MK?

>>11874418
It's f u n

>>11874418
Because the designers of MK cared enough to put the lore in there which was pretty rare for the time.

I'M NOT A NINJA, MOM, I'M LIN KUEI

>>11874418
>game has lore
>NOO YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO PAY ATTENTION ONLY AUTISTS DO THAT

>>11874423
>>11874428
>>11874437
It doesn't matter if the devs shoehorned a plot into the latter games, nobody played classic Mortal Kombat for the "story", they gave the characters some background and that's it. Soon enough there will also be autists caring about Doom lore because of the new game as if that ever mattered

>>11874443
>some background
That was true for MK1. Them continuing the story of MK1 into MK2 was generally seen as enough of a revolutionary moment for fighting games, that MK became known as the "fighting game with lore", and it just stuck.

Although, there's no denying that even at MK's lowest, its story is still light-speed ahead of its closest competition, which is Tekken.

>>11874418
it's the best thing about the series.

>>11874443
The problem with DOOM lore is they just decided to shoehorn it in there with 2016 and they went way overboard with it. With MK you could at least argue it's been there since the beginning.

>>11874473
What did they do with Doom? I thought the, go to hell and punch demons, story was perfectly functional.

>>11874491
They try to turn the regular space marine into some sort ancient warrior or something. I don't really remember the details but there's like an entire book's worth of lore within the codexes and stuff, most you won't really see or experience in the game, but when it does appear it doesn't make much sense.

I would just have Shao Kahn use his oriental magic to bring back the greatest warriors from the previous competition for a second chance.

>>11874504
but outworld was getting smoked until they found Goro. Bringing back a bunch of jobbers would hardly help

>>11874414 (OP)
A character is lazily resurrected for the sequel to my favorite bloodpsort ripoff ?!?!?

>>11874582
The game started as an envisioned knock-off of Karate Champ, then became a competitor to Street Fighter 2, then became a Universal Soldier project. At no point was it ever considered to be inspired by Bloodsport. A parody of Van Damme was included because he apparently turned them down to using his likeness.

>>11874414 (OP)
it's the original sub hero's younger brother
meanwhile the original sub goes to hell and becomes noob saibot
i am not making any of this up

>>11874443
>theres no story
>OP image is literally the story

You're retarded. MK's story is literally that of Enter the Dragon, just replace the espionage/crime element with supernatural ones. You can literally make a movie out of this story, and they did, and a movie already existed with the same basic story.

Even if you look at MK1 fliers, they treat the characters as characters with descriptions and motivations, this is what truly separated it from SFII which was extremely vague (people to this day still think Zangief is a villain)

>>11874884
Read my entire post anon, what you mention, and what people cared about back then, were the CHARACTERS and how they were fleshed out in terms of design and personality, not the "plot" of MK, very different things. I mentioned Doom because the same thing is happening to that franchise, in the original Doom you had a bunch of screens with text explaning a "plot" too, but it was more of an excuse for your character to be doing cool shit, no one really cared about it back then other than the devs thinking "game is finished so we might as well make up some story about why these dudes are fighting before publishing"

>>11874443
>>11874451
As a kid in the 90s who didn't even own an MK game until Trilogy, I was fascinated with the character stories and would listen to a friend tell me plot details and whatnot. Sure, the kombat was the main draw, but those stories made it all seem cooler.

>>11874443
You're not a 90's kid. The stories expanded, the rosters got bigger, and things became an interconnected series of circumstances, coincidences, murders, teachers, rivals, enemies, etc. While fighting was always the main draw, Midway managed to shift the board in the fighting game genre in ways no one had ever seen before hand. Keep in mind that for comparison's sake, Street Fighter 2 only tells you what each character's about in their arcade endings, and maybe a home port manual at a basic level, whereas Mortal Kombat was running attract mode screens telling you the plot, what happened in prior MK games leading up to now, character backstories and motivations.

It's pretty much the biggest thing MK as a franchise contributed to the entire genre: the idea that there's actual plots and characters going on instead of nondescript, contextless tournaments.

Shujinko chads wya?

>noooo you have to kill off the game's poster boy for story purposes!

>>11874985
you're not a 90s kid either
nobody cared about any of that shit, the draw of MK was literally always blood and fatalities

>>11874698
Are you talking about 1 through 3 or do you mean the development of the first game went through these stages? Universal Soldier I can kinda see but Karate Champ wtf

>>11874443
I suck at fighting games and the end bosses in MK are cheap faggots but I would suffer for hours trying to beat them just to get that sweet end screen lore for each character.

>>11875024
both things were draws

>>11874985
didn't fatal fury do that before mk though

>>11875031
Noob smoke's worse than onaga desu.

>>11874964
>>11874985
>>11875024
I was an MK fan from the start, had the first game on Genesis when I was five and played every subsequent release up to MKX where I finally lost interest in playing new games

You can't say everyone had the same experience or level of care. I was a turbo MK fanboy, I was obsessed with the story, drew OCs, had the toys and comics, loved the 1995 movie (which every boy at school did too) and absolutely felt betrayed by how much the second movie sucked, I remember watching the goofy live action tv show

I posted on Mk message boards for years, yes casual MK fans, probably older arcade going kids in their teens, only cared about Fatalitys and blood, but plenty of us were always diehard fans of it not just as a game, but a franchise

>>11875035
Fatal Fury did also have more story and character motivation than SF, it's just the direction the genre went whether people care about it or not, but clearly many do, considering the FF anime is generally considered the best animated adaptation of any fighting game

moar liek PLAIN zero amirite lmfao

>>11875030
MK was in development since the 80s, just not as MK

It was pitched as a one on one fighting game in the vein of karate champ, but with ninjas and digitized actors, then development shifted into some Van Damn tie in, and finally with SFIIs success, the suits let them go on with their original idea

>>11875093
>me and my tiny group of irredeemably autistic weirdos cared about the story
good for you?

>>11875093
What were your OCs?

>>11875137
The vast majority of the MK fanbase likes the story, I know because I've been a fan my whole life. Casual secondaries like you aren't part of the fanbase , you're just an average gamer who probably plays games for five minutes then switches, you're like Doug Walker and James/Mike

>>11875143
Uhhhh there were a lot because I drew a lot just for fun, but I remember one being like a next level Kano with a fully metallic face cover and guns that popped out of his arms

>>11875158
the vast majority of the MK fanbase is casuals who buy the new game on release and move on within a month. this is why NRS has to release a new title every year.
weirdos like you are an extreme minority.

>>11875179
That's how modern online fighting games work, zoomers have short attention spans

I however am in my late 30s and yeah no. Funny thing too is you painting us as freaks, me and my friends hitting pre teen were all cool kids, smoking drinking , partying cussing punks, delinquents, skaters, metalheads, MK was huge for "bad rebellious kids" for obvious reasons, they could embrace their nerdy side with something edgy enough to not be considered corny or kiddy, that's the true only benefit the gore lended. We probably would have beat whatever you were, up

>>11875204
Funny story of like young adult bs too just remembered. Me and my friend at a GameStop tried to buy MK Deception because I didn't have it upon release. They tried to ID me and refused U forgot it, THEN the cunt won't let my friend buy it since he was with me, so we started smoking a blunt in the store, knocked all the shit in there down, she ran to the back yelling about cops and we just finished our rampage and drove home

>>11875204
Funny story of like young adult bs too just remembered. Me and my friend at a GameStop tried to buy MK Deception because I didn't have it upon release. They tried to ID me and refused sale because I forgot it, THEN the cunt won't let my friend buy it since he was with me, so we started smoking a blunt in the store, knocked all the shit in there down, she ran to the back yelling about cops and we just finished our rampage and drove home

>>11874884
? maybe beat SF2 first before talking nonesense? MK just copied what sf2 was doing.

>uhmmmm ackshually you're a casual and a zoomer if you don't like the shitty lore that nobody cared about and also we weren't autist we were da cool trve fan kidz that liked that trash
Just stop my guy, this is embarassing

oh fuck is the fatal fury autist again.

>>11875179
Even the casuals who drop each game after a month like bits and pieces of the story. Your all or nothing thinking is very autistic.

>>11875247
SFII doesn't have any lore, it was made by Hasbro/The anime and SF Alpha, you know the finalized lore, it's not in the ORIGINAL game other than Chun Li, Guile, and Bison having connections. No other characters are related to the "plot" at all, and Bison didn't even have plans or a scheme yet, he was just "the badguy", MK established the purpose for the tournament and who Shang is, SF did not, and SF still, only is a "tournament" because people say it is, there isn't any tournament

>>11875251
You're a foreigner, so as an American metal loving, sports playing, drug smoking badass idc what you think. You probably think SNES is better than Genesis because of Jarpigs

>>11875204
Mate, you were five in 1995. You have missed the MK1 and MK2 arcade releases. MK mania was gone long before you started smoking and drinking. PS2 MK games were released during your teen years.
I played MK1-MK4 in arcades when they there new. I had a fucking panini sticker album. The characters and the setting were cool as fuck. But there was no known "lore" other than brief intro and character endings. No more than Street Fighter and Fatal Fury.

>>11875301
>as an American metal loving, sports playing, drug smoking badass
You've outed yourself as a doordashing loser already

>>11875302
The intros and endings alone are WAY more context than SFII, and Fatal Fury literally had cutscenes

Being a teen at the arcade or a kid on home console doesn't matter, the information in the games didn't change

>>11875301
>as an American metal loving, sports playing, drug smoking badass
Holy fuck please tell me you gave up defending that crap and are just baiting now, this is literally the most embarassing string of posts I've ever seen on this board

>>11875301
This anime alone is also very telling of culture in the 90s.

Street Fighter is PG silliness, only gets a T rating for fighting. But the anime proudly says M FOR MATURE like MK games, has blood, loaded with edgy rock music in the American version

>>11875329
Heh, just bantz but every troll has an underrent of truth. I love SF as much as MK but SF has so many basedgamer fans, I rub it in their face. You never see average MCU/BLM/Steven Universe stereotypes into MK, they like SF

>>11875307
The archive remembers
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/11804961/#11813950

>>11875339
Netherrealms made MK games are the exact lore slop that normie MCU fans are into.

>>11875339

>>11875345
Idc, come figure out where I am on discord so I can get all your info and social media and bank info blah blah, 4chan zoomers gonna learn about aim hacker scene

>>11875347
That's not the MK fanbase though, hence us all bitching since MK9

>>11875354
Sure bro, go ahead, hack me

>>11875354
MK fanbase is MCU normies and SJW/BLM crowd.

What I learned from this thread is that Street Fighter fans are the same as Mario fans/Tendies

>>11875345
Holy fuck this guy is an actual söyboy redditor, no wonder he's so into this nerd shit

>>11875367
>Likes anime
>Likes rap
you're onions, bud

Only masculine dudes like brutal violence, misogyny, metal, racism etc

>>11875372
>is fat
>door dashes in his late 30s
>is lebanese but wishes he was white
You're a sad beta

>>11875394
I don't wish I was white but my skin is because I'm half Leb half German, more pale than you. I'm more proud of my Phoenician heritage for being the villains of the Bible and creating written language, baths, and the color purple

And your m not fat, you are, and I'm better at both Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter than you

>>11875394
>>11875394 #
I don't wish I was white but my skin is because I'm half Leb half German, more pale than you because you're yellow or brown. I'm more proud of my Phoenician heritage for being the villains of the Bible and creating written language, baths, and the color purple, and regardless the only races are mongoloid, negroid, and caucasoid

And your m not fat, you are, and I'm better at both Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter than you. And KoF and Tekken. And FF and Rival Schools. And Marvel and Soul Calibur. And Samurai Shodown and Last Blade, and Garou and Clay Fighter

>>11875394
I don't wish I was white but my skin is because I'm half Leb half German, more pale than you because you're yellow or brown. I'm more proud of my Phoenician heritage for being the villains of the Bible and creating written language, baths, and the color purple, and regardless the only races are mongoloid, negroid, and caucasoid

And I'm not fat, you are, and I'm better at both Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter than you. And KoF and Tekken. And FF and Rival Schools. And Marvel and Soul Calibur. And Samurai Shodown and Last Blade, and Garou and Clay Fighter. And your sister Yuki wants to fuck me

Hey. what if Sub-Zero was a grille?

>>11875612
pussy like a cold bath

>>11875204
>That's how modern online fighting games work
wrong. SF6 is on its third year strong. SFV and Tekken 7 lasted 6 years each.
You dont know what you're talking about.

>>11874443
>nobody played classic Mortal Kombat for the "story"
Wrong.

>>11875580
K, now go make me a kebab

>>11875247
Storywise? Not even remotely.

>>11875735
Gives a whole new meaning to cold fish in bed

>>11875347
>Netherrealms made MK games are the exact lore slop that normie MCU fans are into.
9, 11, and 1 are. Which all the people into MK are extremely critical of, because they keep retconning things and want them to stop.

>>11875580
>>11875758
Can you both shut the fuck up please? It's getting embarrassing.

>>11875612
Such a shame how they turned her from a wannabe assassin trying her hardest to impress her masters, to just being a dumb lin kuei robot.

>>11875771
The people into MK are the ones who keep buying this slop

>>11875774
What's your fucking problem

>>11875771
what the fuck? everyone loved MK9's story.

>>11875787
Not recently. MK1 sold like shit.

>>11875808
it sold 5 million by the start of this year, dumbass

>>11875301
>SFII doesn't have any lore, it was made by Hasbro/The anime
why do you keep saying this shit in every thread

>>11875814
Yea, and MK11 sold 15 million, "dumbass". It sold like shit.

>>11876064
>selling millions of copies is... LE BAD
you're retarded.

>>11874418
fag

>>11874964
while i agree with this quote for games to an extant (RPGs & adventure games are where story actually matters) i always found it ironic because he used to DM the DnD games at id.

>>11876065
Yes, dumbass, when the development is hundreds of millions of dollars. Are you actually fucking retarded? Shadow of the Tomb Raider sold 8.9 million copies and was a bomb.

>>11876116
>he thinks WB spent hundreds of millions of dollars on a fighting game

>>11876116
>>11876132
>he googled it and realized he was dead wrong so he ran away from the thread

>>11874990
>Shujinko
>Is the protagonist

>>11875771
Most people I know liked MK9, in fact, the only people I've seen hate on it are 00s kids who only played the 3D era and are salty about it being 2D

MK9s story was fine, it was an example of a soft reboot not done horribly unlike say, DC's comic relaunches or any Marvel shittery where they alter their "never ending continuity" that essentially acts as a soft reboot, and is always for the worse. MK9's little long ass movie story mode was pretty good at condensing the first three games story, the only really stupid changes were
>Cyber Sub Zero
>The Sindel shit

>>11875990
Ok, the one piece of "lore" that SF initially had was that Ryu beat Sagat, but that's not what SFII is based around.....Sagat is made into Bison's goon, essentially the Reptile of SF, he doesn't do anything and his rivalry with Ryu never goes anywhere other than like in later games he becomes a good guy or some shit I don't even remember, SF is the series where as it goes on I just literally don't care about the lore that exists, it was getting cool with the Alpha series, and SFIII and onward just kept making it more retarded and disjointed
>The Illuminati......this has nothing to do with anything how cool! Alex is a new protag that everyone stopped caring about yay
>SETH....he's a cliche android guy/AI thing that nobody liked, and the new protagonist is an amesiac with a downsy face that nobody cared about
>Now a hipster Abraham Lincoln is the villain and a zoomer Justin Beiber who Tiktok dances is the hero, and Bison's soundcloud rapper son!

Like what the fuck

>>11876537
i literally don't care about alpha or turd strike, they are obsessed with SF2 trying to either replicate it or not step on it making pointless prequel fights.

>that's not what SFII is based around.....
what even is this argument, so just because sagat isn't the final boss he doesn't matter? he is more like goro if you want to draw a comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJS2GjMwHkg

Mortal Kombat very clearly ends at MK3, the 3 games together tell a more compeling story than SF1-Sf2. That doesn0t mean there is no story in SF, you are trying to downplay it so hard in favor of a shitty cartoon which only legacy is giving bison some robots.

>>11876537
They like MK9 because of the roster and it's essentially "Top Hits" collection. The story was liked, but people were unhappy that they were just re-writing things and hoping it was just a one-and-done.

>>11876132
>>11876236
>being this fucking gorilla-retarded
MK1 (2023) cost around 250 million dollars to make. 5 Million units was literally their break even point. You are so fucking laughably stupid-fuck-retarded it's hurting my sides that I'm laughing so much. Jesus tap-dancing negro-christ.

>>11874418
in the 90s it was big
there was movies and action figures, and the games became kinda innately cool thanks to the ESRB censor faggotry
most kids knew about their favorite character at least

>>11876564
So the only narrative vanilla SF2 had upon release was
>Sagat wants revenge on Ryu
>And Sagat works for Bison, a Cobra Commander type guy running a tournament that has no rhyme or reason for existing
It is what it is, you might not like the story elements SFA brought, but they did solidify that Bison's purpose for being wrapped up in martial arts bs is that he brainwashes fighters/wants them to be his new bodies blah blah....yes, it's kinda stupid, but it's something, and it mostly comes from the anime

>>11876598
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFy560IuRis

Bison is recruiting fighters, is why he made the tournament. He's been active for years, killing Chunli's father and Guile's friend, implied to be also fighters (they both their martial arts style from each).
Sagat joined him because he wanted revenge for losing the "World Warrior" title to Ryu. The brainwashing bit is a nice addition, but the series never needed it, it was all already there.

Scorpion seemed kind of spergy to me in a funny way
>I WILL KILL YOU
>OH YOURE INNOCENT? I WILL BE YOUR GUARDIAN SINCE I KILLED YOUR BROTHER
>QUAN CHI, ILL OBSESS OVER KILLING YOU NOW

never forget what they took from you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOQtAADrEo

>>11876631
it makes sense since they turned the entire premise for his hatred of sub zero 1 on its head. He was fine with being killed fair and square, but Sub-zero slaughtering his clan was what made him a vengeance demon. Then it turned out that wasn't sub zero and was all quan chi so the vengeance gets aimed at the correct target. It's a very weird direction from a marketing perspective though because it tosses water on the whole scorpion vs sub zero thing and storywise they never really address sub zero 1 -> Noob and his relation with sub zero 2, scorpion, nor quan chi as the series developed

>>11876578
>he thinks WB spent a quarter of a million dollars on a fighting game

>>11875354
>AIM hacker scene
Jesus christ, lol.

>>11874443
how else would you know who you liked?
no one was obsessed with the meta and winning all the time. games were for fun.

>>11876756
>how else would you know who you liked?
by saying "that dude looks cool" and trying them, and sticking with them if you like how they play

>>11876758
look is part of the backstory, dipstick.

>>11876765
no the fuck it is not lol
that's one of the most retarded things anyone has ever said on this board

>>11875345
>>11875354

lmao christ almighty

>>11876765
>see how he's got a red stripe on his pants? LORE
kek based retard

>>11876765
People on this board will say the dumbest shit instead of admitting they were wrong

>>11875345
>I'm wearing the same outfit as terry
LMAO

>>11875301
>SFII doesn't have any lore, it was made by Hasbro/The anime and SF Alpha, you know the finalized lore, it's not in the ORIGINAL game other than Chun Li, Guile, and Bison having connections.
You're an idiot.

>>11875778
By far the best animated character in the new games and her gameplay is a lot of fun. Second most fun sub-zero since MKX sub. The classic version is a bit lame, except for the hair, the hair is cool (no pun intended)

>>11876631

>>11875612
That design is pretty cool ngl

>>11875227
Perfectly normal response to someone who had been instructed they could be fired for game sales to minors at the time if they were m rated. I’m sure you grew up to be a very helpful and happy member of society. Bitch

>>11877084
>Oooo noooo the hidden microphone is gonna hear the conversation
That shits fuckin dumb, even liquor stores stores don't ID 90 percent of the time if you clearly look adult unless it's a 80 year old just some uppity bitch

>>11877170
>even liquor stores stores don't ID 90 percent of the time
that's fucking bullshit motherfucker

>>11875612
She's hot but Nitara was my 3d era waifu

>>11877772
she cute

>>11875113
FUCK YOU ARNULD, I HOPE YOU LEAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR MY FIST, BECAUSE I'M GOING TO RAM IT INTO YOUR STOMACH AND BREAK YOUR GODDAMN SPINE!

>>11874418
MK was the first game series I ever played that had a plot deeper than "save the princess" and showed game lore could be as good as movies.

>>11874414 (OP)
literally the ryu of mk

>>11878493
People don't get this either, like story even in story driven games back then was pretty minimal. FF6 and Chrono Trigger were probably as expansive as it got but even most JRPGs were bare bones and usually repeititve
>magical girl
>macguffin
>loveable creature
>ancient evil
>and they go from place to place

>>11876671
not necesarily.

yes, Quan chi was the mastermind behind the deaths of Scorpíons family and clan, but it was still Sub-Zero who did it.

obviously it doesnt apply anymore on the MKOne timeline, but at the end, that was always the case in all previous timelines. and Scoropion was right on going after Sub-Zero first.

>>11874443
You play dozens to even hundreds of hours of these old games with your m8s. Sooner or later you will talk about it just to have a conversation, what is so hard to grasp about that.

>>11879571
sub zero killed scorpion, but Quan Chi himself (disguised) and his horde killed scorpion's clan and family

>>11874414 (OP)
That shade of blue always makes me thirst for Gatorade

>>11874423
It kind of isnt though anymore. Armageddon was bad, and everything since is a soft reboot with time travel.

>>11881976
I like to call it charmageddon, it's charming

>>11874503
Indeed. Shits gay. Doom Slayer is his slave name.

>>11885759
Yeah, Flynn «Fly» Taggart is way better.

Ed Boon only has himself to blame for people taking the lore of MK seriously

>>11885791
Nobody takes it seriously

>>11874437
The "lore" was just an excuse to have edgy pictures cycle on the screen in the arcade game while the cabinet was idle.

>>11875137
>saying this on the retro game nerd board

>>11885791
Yeah because MK is so out there. US 90s kids didn't care if media was crazy by today's standards of "Steven Universe is deep"

>>11874414 (OP)
It's a different person entirely, the subzero that dies in the shaolin tornament is noob saibot.

>>11886589
>MK
>crazy
MK was as crazy as a saturday morning cartoon. Now 90s Marvel was cool as fuck before it was infested with MCU kids.

>>11886965
Point is there isn't really anything that makes MK more "hard to take seriously" than anything else. There are people on this board who debate Mega Man lore or argue about Zelda canon, give me a break, now that's really people milking a dry tit, most MK discussion is shit that was actually stated in the games, not just "what if" or retroactive shit added in mangas or whatever

>>11876673
>quarter of a million dollars
>a million dollars

Lol, but anyway
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/xbox-leak-reveals-estimated-costs-of-aaa-games-on-game-pass

>Mortal Kombat 1: $250 million

>>11885791
No, John Tobias took it seriously. Ed Boon let other people handle the lore and mostly just tard-wrangled people who tried to fuck with the franchise main-stays like Sub-Zero, Kano, Sonya, Scorpion, and Johnny Cage. The problem is he got lax with his tard wrangling in the last 10 years or so, and now shit has spiraled so far out of control, he may have seriously and irreparably damaged the brand of Mortal Kombat.

>>11888491
If anything, MK is easier to take seriously because its plot is actually connected to the roster.

>crotch frost

>>11874418
>the audience that read comic books were invested in the lore
Whoa
Do you think it's like jap shit where it's in the fucking toilet and flushed each new game they make?

>>11874414 (OP)
he's a chinese ninja warrior

>>11891839
Born in China > Lost Soul Bent on Revenge > Chinese Ninja Warrior

MKfags are weirdly defensive about their Godfrey Ho martial arts game

>>11892052
SF fags are weirdly defensive about any other games being discussed

And by FG fags, I mean non playing secondary zoomers who never been to an arcade

>>11892052
SF fags are weirdly defensive about any other games being discussed

And by SF fags, I mean non playing secondary zoomers who never been to an arcade

>>11892079
Lucky for me I'm a Toshindenfag.

>>11892089
Toshinden? Battle Arena Toshinden? You're a fag for Battle Arena Toshinden??

>he didn't beat the game with all characters for the endings
haha oh wow

>>11893573

>>11876065
Hi-Fi Rush sold almost as much with a lower budget and it still killed off its studio.

>>11893696
>AYYO TONE HOL THE FUCK UP
>why am I a skull?

>>11893573
I forget, was it ever said who this wealthy enemy of Shang Tsung was? I mean before MK introduced Quan Chi as I think I remember it being him at that point