Thread 11925559

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOBEy-zIotE
What's the reason behind companies not releasing "good" level editors? Good old money? People won't play your shittier new release if they can just play the old games with new content?

During the Doom era, a team of 5 people can ship a groundbreaking never seen before game. Things should be getting easier. But now, you need an entire group of people dedicated to making 3D models, world, a group of people for making music, a group of people to make them fit together, etc

It seems like earlier innovations were aimed at making stuff easier to approach. Using level editors a single guy can design many levels without having to learn an entire 3D software suit. Also what happened to "music" in computers? We can design sculptures on our computers without having to deal with chisels/carving stones. But for some reason, there is no "computer" way of creating music. And this seems to be a trend in every direction. Back then 3D software were designed to create stuff from scratch on the computer, but now every tool is designed for tracing real life instruments and digitizing them.

Consolefication

It's money and laziness to make it intuitive. The last true example of a level editor for a fully realized game was forge for the halo games. You could also consider Mario Maker a level editor although it's nit attached to a game, it's more like the gaem itself revolves around the editor.

In any case i think laziness to make it intuitive is the biggest factor, companies don't want to spend a month or two to make a usable editor with an intuitive ui out of the one they use themsslevs since they can't just release the one they use since it would give away too much of their precious "power" over the game assets. So that would be time to spend on a deliberately neutered editor with a goood UI that could take a good few months out of dev time.

See the problem now right? It's nit that it isn't possible, it's just laziness and greed.

>>11925584
>The last true example of a level editor
Are the modding tools for Bethesda games, which go beyond simple level editors. New Vegas is considered a separate game, and there's been fan made total conversion releases. Or massive expansions like Tamriel Rebuilt for Morrowind.

Why would they? Barely anyone would use them beyond a really easy and intuitive one like Mario Maker, and even if you spend the time to make a good one almost nobody would play it. Moderating it also costs money, as you need to constantly monitor any reports every single day

>>11925559 (OP)
Creative industries in the English speaking world are moving away from stuff that takes 100s of hours to make. In Quake editors, and Doom Builder, and Hammer for Source, you basically specify every vertice and texture manually over the course of hundreds and hundreds of hours in a dark room. That's why Romero, McGee and Peterson's work is so iconic. So what's the problem with this? The rich guy who signs the check does not really want to deal with autists like Romero, McGee and Peterson. He'd rather be able to give that job to some frat bro he went to college with. He can only give that job to his college frat bro if the job is easy and takes minimal time, which is why EVERY editing program is going in this direction. It doesn't really matter if gamers want hand made maps, if there's nothing left in AAA games but shitty linear corridors made out of prefab pieces, they will be forced to buy what is for sale.

It's even worse in music and photo editing than it is in games. Why spend hundreds of hours chasing perfect guitar tone or tuning an FM Synth when you can just use the default guitar sample on Pro Tools? Why spend hundreds of hours drawing something when you can just have AI "Generative Fill" it in.

This was already starting to become a major problem in the mid-2000s. Games were almost universally bad in that period because the developers hadn't figured out any new genres that don't require map-making (MOBA/Gacha) yet, and were still trying to make traditional games, but with terrible maps. From Software gets treated like they're Pablo Picasso because they're the only studio left in Japan that will seeks out the kind of autist who will work 16 hours a day for 2,500,000 yen a year for the art of it, but it used to be that way at every studio. And guess who has a problem with this and writes articles about it? Rich westerners.

>>11925620
They were intuitive back then. Because the level editor is all you had to design the level. After a certain point most level editors started relying on import Maya/Autodesk models directly with features designed around doing minor touch ups.

WC3/Dota incident was the final nail.

>>11925624
“From the beginning of the year until Golden Week [an annual week of national holidays in Japan], MetaSuru [a contraction of Metaru Suruggu, i.e. Metal Slug] warriors work overtime until around 2:00, and after Golden Week, sleepovers begin at the company for about eight months. As soon as the morning meeting starts, we crawl out from under the desk, eat cup noodles and go to bed around 5am. I was looking forward to Sundays off.”

He adds that there were four or five “dotters” (pixel artists) working on Metal Slug, and that it was “tough”, but a “fun memory”.

>>11925559 (OP)
>Why does modern gaming not do this anymore?

Not retro

>>11925559 (OP)
Good question. It's because with Warcraft 3 someone made Dota which became extremely popular and Blizzard was angry that they didn't own the rights to it.

>>11925559 (OP)
There's no need to make tools to simplify design, most of it is handled in-engine by Unreal or Unity, or exports from 3D modelling tools. No corporate dev will expend time and money to make, release and maintain their own editor, because modern games are not passion projects by gamers.

if kids today want to make their room or their school in a game, like i did in worldcraft, use minecraft.

>>11925559 (OP)
>level editors
most devs just build levels directly in Unity or Unreal these days, though? the concept of the old bsp editors just doesn't make sense with modern game design

>>11925559 (OP)
>But now, you need an entire group of people dedicated to making 3D models, world, a group of people for making music, a group of people to make them fit together, etc
Duh. Modern game projects are more complex than the original Doom.
>It seems like earlier innovations were aimed at making stuff easier to approach. Using level editors a single guy can design many levels without having to learn an entire 3D software suit
That's still the case. Part of the reason everyone is switching to Unity or Unreal is to make a game without having to create an engine from scratch. Indies and small teams are the ones who benefit the most from this.
>But for some reason, there is no "computer" way of creating music
DAWs, VSTs and trackers are still used.
>but now every tool is designed for tracing real life instruments and digitizing them.
Because people like instrumental/orchestral music.

Anyway, the next Battlefield is supposed to have a map editor similar to Halo's forge.

Was the Doom Eternal one any good?

Modern games can't release shit cus they all use like 15 different kinds of licensed middleware and other outsourced engines and shit. Nothing is built in house these days.

>>11925835
>old bsp editors just doesn't make sense with modern game design
It's not just about BSP you can still use other techniques behind the scene. For some reason, nobody tries to see computers as its own medium. Most modern tools are designed to digitize ideas instead of actively using the computer as the medium.
>>11925852
>DAWs, VSTs and trackers
If a kid wants to learn a music, he has to start with an old school instrument. Guitar, Piano, Bass, etc. And there is nothing wrong with that, but why don't we treat computers itself as an instrument separate from any legacy instrument? A kid can boot up Hammer and start making buildings without knowing anything about concrete, power tools, upfront design, etc The graphics environment on computers used have their own "vocabulary" (Just look at constructive solid geometry) meanwhile the audio department is pretty lame.

Do me a favor and look up, "old" version of Autodesk, Deluxe Paint, old animation studio software and you will see how innovative they were in terms of user experience.
>Because people like instrumental/orchestral music
>>11925852
>Halo Forge
I don't care about the Forge editor because it's made with the import/export paradigm in mind. You make stuff in external software and the level editor is only used for placing them.

>>11925898
>If a kid wants to learn a music, he has to start with an old school instrument
Uh not really. Have you ever made music on a computer?
Just place blocks in a sequence

>>11925898
>If a kid wants to learn a music, he has to start with an old school instrument. Guitar, Piano, Bass, etc
Not even remotely true and hasn't been for a very long time.

>>11925559 (OP)
>>During the Doom era, a team of 5 people can ship a groundbreaking never seen before game. Things should be getting easier
Why would breaking new ground get easier as more ground is covered? And what does that have to do with level editors, which are more or less necessarily not ground breaking?

Tenchu 2 level editor was great, one of the few things it had over 1

>>11925925
1 had a level editor as well in Japan. There is even a re-release with a bonus disc which adds 100 levels submitted by fans.

>>11925915
But that's what games did though? Every other industry relied on allocating huge resources to write programs meanwhile in games, stuff like Doom programmed by a single guy that beats everything that was ever released by a group of people. People were already writing books about how adding more people to a problem doesn't solve anything.

>>11925559 (OP)
>Good old money? People won't play your shittier new release if they can just play the old games with new content?
well, you already know the answer
level editors were pushed by passionate developers that were making cool stuff for other like minded people
back in the early days of the gaming industry when the giant corporations where flying blind, that would still fly. hell, they would even push for it to mimic what the id and epic were doing. if it ain't broke

as an amateur game developer currently developing an fps, though, I have no idea why I would ever develop a dedicated level editor, though. I'm doing everything in blender and I have handy scripts for automating and exporting everything. I can just release those if I ever finish my game. not like anyone is going to care, but yeah, blender is enough in 2025

>>11925925
It would have been cool if MGS: VR Missions had a level editor.

>>11925951
>why I would ever develop a dedicated level editor
There are many design decisions that advocate for a level editor. But that's a topic for another thread.

>>11925898
>Most modern tools are designed to digitize ideas instead of actively using the computer as the medium.
Great insight.
>>11925925
Good memories
>>11925926
I would have loved to have had that
>>11925957
That would have been based

>>11925559 (OP)
>But for some reason, there is no "computer" way of creating music.
But there is, retard.

1998:
>20-man dev team wants to release level editor tools
>they do so
2025:
>300-man dev team wants to release level editor tools
>company lawyers, shareholders and venture capitalists tell them they're not allowed to do so

>>11926172
>2025:
>>300-man dev team wants to release level editor tools
Didn't Larian do just that

>>11926186
Yes because like CDProjekt they are independent. Epic is also a huge company but can release Unreal, meanwhile id was one of the posterchilds for releasing editing tools and source code but Microsoft stops them from doing that now.

>>11926186
I don't think you can make custom campaign with it. Which makes you wonder why didn't they release the entire thing? It's DLC time.

>>11926191
Insider info: Tim Sweeney is hack. Why do you think the original Unreal source is not released? Yep, Tim doesn't own that code, he didn't wrote that code. Just watch any of his interviews talking about Unreal. When Carmack talks about Quake you will see him talk about all the important technological details, solutions, etc meanwhile Tim always responds with:
> uh.. umm.. You see when working on Unreal, you can operate on geometry create interesting shape, anyways the real point is to keep trying

>>11925945
Try actually reading the question before answering it. None of that is at all relevant to what I asked.

>>11926191
>id was one of the posterchilds for releasing editing tools and source code but Microsoft stops them from doing that now.
Does id want to, currently?

>>11926191
Acktually id didn't release editing tools, at least for Doom. Mostly because they were written for NeXTSTEP so they'd have been pretty useless to almost everyone.
I think they did provide the technical details to make it practical for fans to make their own though.

>>11926203
Reminder, a company seizes to exist as soon as the original founders are gone. Nintendo doesn't exist anymore, neither Capcom, etc You are being brainwashed by corporations every single day.

>>11925860
I've seen some people have made stuff from it, but there's apparently a huge learning curve, so we won't see any big projects come from it, if ever. Also, the install size with all the assets is several hundred gigs, which I'm sure stopped a lot of people from checking it out.

>>11926208
They will also insist you should pay for old games "to support the creators", knowing full well none of the money you fork over actually goes to those creators.

>>11926219
And then they will tell you to pay for "hosting" those old games on their servers, when they themselves were the ones who took down fan sites hosting those games for free.
This is one of the reason I fucking hate "NightDiveStudios". They are bringing back corpa nature into old games. Before them most of these games were out in the open, corporate didn't care it was just fans.
Now they buy the rights, start releasing remakes/ports on their own "closed source" engine, effectively reissuing the corporate ownership of the IP.

>>11925559 (OP)
>What's the reason behind companies not releasing "good" level editors?
Very little good was ever done with them
>But for some reason, there is no "computer" way of creating music.
>Back then 3D software were designed to create stuff from scratch on the computer, but now every tool is designed for tracing real life instruments and digitizing them.
lolwut? Are you ok?

>>11926269
>lolwut? Are you ok?
This thread is just for gay doomers to whine about whatever comes to mind
>remember when you could steal apples from your neighbour's yard?
>well modern apples are sold in stores by corporations!!

>What's the reason behind companies not releasing "good" level editors? Good old money? People won't play your shittier new release if they can just play the old games with new content?
Part of it, yeah.

>During the Doom era, a team of 5 people can ship a groundbreaking never seen before game.
Mind, there was still a lot of ground left to break back then. We had been doing 2D for decades by 1992, and realtime 3D was finally starting to get into its groove by then, but 1992 was 33 years ago, we have probably explored most physical concepts in 3D space by now.
The sky is still pretty much the limit, but I doubt you're gonna think of a completely radical new kind of gameplay or physics for any 2D or 3D game in this day and age.

>But for some reason, there is no "computer" way of creating music.
There is though? Even back in 1992, we had motherfucking MIDI, and all these years later there's all manner of software and assets for making music for your production, not sure where you're getting this idea.

Also, I want to make it clear that iD Software never released any of their tools for making levels for Doom (they ran in a NEXSTeP environment and thus wouldn't be of any use for regular consumers anyway), and that Doom is actually rather hardcoded in its original .exe

Doom as it shipped didn't really accommodate very much modification at all, basically just loading packs of levels, if you tried to run a .wad with new sprites on top of your doom.wad (iwad), the .exe would try to only load sprites from that instead and thus everything else was missing, thus people had to use a utility for patching new content onto the iwad, and which could then restore it to normal afterwards. Better than Wolfenstein 3D modding, but only barely.
If you wanted to do anything like change the health of any enemy, how fast a weapon fired, how animations would display (or even just small non-gameplay/physics shit like intermission texts, the automap level names and level PAR times), you had to actually HACK the .exe, and you couldn't add new stuff here, it was like romhacking, you had to arrange what already existed, no new entities, no new frames or functions.

Doom is one of those games with a legendary and long lived modding scenes, but for the first few years people had to basically figure out everything themselves, and with the source code being published in 1997, everyone was still on their own there, they just had better means to get the shit they wanted done, no more of those old limitations.
Until Doom Builder was published in like 2003, a decade after the game's release, the best level editor you could get for Doom was DeePsea, which you had to buy from a third party company.

>>11926430
>Until Doom Builder was published in like 2003, a decade after the game's release, the best level editor you could get for Doom was DeePsea, which you had to buy from a third party company.

Even with Quake, most people I knew of were using things like Worldcraft. The level editor they released needed a NeXT workstation to effectively run.

>>11925568
GODsoles have map editors...it's the Steamification. No we can't leave the dev tools in the install files, we have to remove them

>>11925559 (OP)
RETVRN

>>11926474
That is the shittiest level editor I've seen in my life.

>>11926474
>GODsoles have map editors
Tony hawks come to mind

Tomb Raider also had one and people are still releasing stuff to this day.

engines like ue5 are specifically not capable of loading user content by default unless you write that functionality yourself. you can't just paste a map file then type "map topkek" like the good ol' days. besides if you allow modding then less people will buy dlc

>>11926576
>allow modding then less people will buy dlc
Doubt, since bethesda has kept making DLCs for 20 years. Mod content just doesn't compare to professional work. Bioware's Neverwinter Nights was another with dedicated modding tools AND expansions.

>>11925967
>There are many design decisions that advocate for a level editor.
The biggest problem is that literally nobody will give a shit. Those who do care, probably already use Source or Doom Builder and stick with those.
Nobody will give a shit about the level editor in your new game. 99% of gamers today are just not interested in actually tinkering with and modding games, so much so as a console-like "plug and play" approach has become mandatory even on PC today.
Years ago, I've released a game on Steam, for free, that was built on GZDoom. So I didn't even have to make one, it was literally already out there, all you had to do is literally just do 1 google search.
Wanna know how many custom levels my game got? Zero. And that's with many players liking it enough to replay it.
Simply put, there is no demand for it there, so any effort spent on building a level editor for the users is a waste of time, unless you have a SIGNIFICANT amount of people asking for it. The gaming culture has changed.

>>11926840
>The biggest problem is that literally nobody will give a shit.
I don't think so. Just look at Minecraft and all the custom addons, in addition to the game that's not far from being a level editor by itself. Apparently roblox too, but I know little about it.

Standards may be higher today. Less likely to spend time on unpopular jank that takes too much effort to be worth it.

>>11926840
>I made a game that is mostly, if not solely and entirely, enjoyed by people who are perfectly aware of other mapmaking alternatives
>my game did not have any maps made for it
>therefore, the general public doesn't care about map making
I hope to hell your game breaks away from the typical game made in GZDoom, because otherwise you sound dumb as shit.

>>11926936
>Standards may be higher today. Less likely to spend time on unpopular jank that takes too much effort to be worth it.
I'm not certain if the standards are higher, but the accessibility part is certainly true. If you wanna make custom levels then Minecraft and Roblox are your best and most accessible choice. Then comes Source (thanks mainly to Garry's Mod), Source 2 (has a high barrier of entry due to system recs) and every other game with modding tools comes after that. Maybe Doom is somewhere up high but I'm not sure where to put it in that hierarchy.
You also need to consider that the culture relating to modding and gamedev has changed.
Back when every game company was releasing a level editor and mod tools, that was the only way for someone to dabble with game development that was even remotely accessible. With the advent of modern Unreal, Unity and Godot, everybody who made TCs and level packs for games back in the 90s and 2000s goes straight to indie dev instead nowadays.
Just take a look at most modern mods for modern games, even if they have editor tools released. CDPR released some quite extensive tools for Cyberpunk + there were leaks that made all dev tools public, and yet the majority of most popular mods are just tweaks and small fixes, clothes mods and voice replacers. People in general just less interested in this kind of content for games compared to legacy titles.

>>11926974
>I'm not certain if the standards are higher
For example, players expect voice acting from quest mods for games like cyberpunk.

>>11926997
>For example, players expect voice acting from quest mods for games like cyberpunk.
Fair enough. Though, some communities like Skyrim and GTA have adopted AI for this purpose wholesale, I guess you are right. There's this mod, Frosted Winter for GTA 3, which released in 2010, and people are judging it really harshly recently, so maybe you do have a point.
Anyway, what I was getting at, is as a mod developer, there's generally no audience for these large, expansive mods and levels anymore, so you don't have much of a reason to make such grand mods anymore. And this loops back into the original discussion of why level editors and mod tools are not included anymore. Both devs and modders have this understanding that's it's rather pointless, so very few bother with it.

>>11927019
>generally no audience for these large, expansive mods and levels anymore
Yes, I don't think most people need expansion mods. Think Skyrim, the base game already offers fifty hours of content per playthrough, enough for casual play.

One insight though: popular custom content, then and now, change up the game. New game modes. Even entirely new games.

>>11926974
>>11927019
Another factor is that the modern gamer has access to more games than before, thanks to Steam sales and services like Game Pass. Plus the fact that there's more games coming out at a faster pace than before. And all of that without even getting into the rabbit holes that are piracy, abandonware, freeware and emulation. This leads to most players not bothering with mods or custom levels when they can just jump to the next game in their backlog.

>>11925568
This.

Editors are on PC but require more company resources vs just making a game with console controls for the mouth breathers. Then port it later after being an epic faggot exclusive for free money, then after a year releasing it to steam.>>11925568

>>11925559 (OP)
Not retro, but >>11925681 mostly covers it
Someone made DotA in WC3 map maker, which was then copied by a number of others including the founders of Riot Games with League of Legends. Riot Games would eventually go on to make way more money than Blizzard, who would eventually find themselves a mere subsidiary of a subsidiary. Imagine that you give people the tools to make whatever they want for the joy of the game, and they use it instead to swallow your business and eclipse your company - of course nobody is gonna bother with map maker tools after that.

>>11927151
Half the time the company just released their internal tools because of fan requests. Obviously their workstations they used the tools on were PCs.
A console level editor requires specifically going out of your way to make an editor that runs in game and also doesn't eat up all the consoles resources. That's why most console level editors aren't really level editors as much as they are rooms you can put a bunch of props and set pieces in.

>>11927313
>>11927151
>>11927146
>>11927019


I feel like this is all a symptom of a massive technological decline. People don't have the time and resources to do this shit, no one cares if they do this shit, so they just say fuck it

It's not good. People are supposed to tinker with things and have the ability to do so. That is how innovation happens. Obviously devs releasing level editors is somewhat of a rarity and always has been, but when was the last time people went out of their way to build something like that? Most DOOM modding was the community building these things.

Now there's not even a community anymore.

>>11927365
The games being put out aren't worth making mod communities for. 99% of the shit being put out is a derivative of something that already existed, and is inferior or on par with the game they're ripping off. No one cares about indie RTS-slop game #100000, but they do care about Factorio enough to makes mods for that.

>>11927365
>but when was the last time people went out of their way to build something like that? Most DOOM modding
If you only know Doom, doesn't that already tell you you're too old and out of touch to make assessments

>>11927313
>>11927365
The real answer is much simpler. Riot replaced Blizzard and Valve replaced old id software because Blizzard and id were shitty companies at the time.

Blizzard has more or less always been a shitty company full of the RPG nerd equivalent of frat bros, but it got much worse after WoW. This culture was so well known it got mocked by multiple comedy shows like Jace Hall and South Park.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_h6AEAlFIY
It's not really surprising that 2 separate companies ended up owning Blizzard's "next big thing" because Blizzard was too busy spending money trying to force gamers to like things. They tried to force a sequel to Starcraft for the Korean market, which eventually went back to Brood War. They tried to force a MOBA onto non-MOBA Blizzard fans with Heroes of the Storm and spent MILLIONS viralling it on every college campus in America. They bought MLG outright, killed it, then used the infrastructure to pretend Overwatch was an eSport. Then they spent more millions putting it on broadcast TV.

id software was famous for Willits, Mcgee, Romero, and Peterson's iconic level design. 4 of the greatest mapmakers of all time. Romero had to fuck it up by going on an autistic crusade to turn a D&D campaign written by John Carmack (LOL) in 1992 into an RPG that later turned into Quake. When the rest of the team became increasingly against this idea, Romero began working by himself in a dark room and not talking to anyone. Then he quit, and the company went to shit because Carmack is not a designer.

Both of these events left massive openings for Riot and Valve. Blizzard and id simply refused to make Dota 2, refused to make TF2, and refused to make Counterstrike. All they had to do was hire the developer. That's all that Riot and Valve did.

As everyone else has said in this thread, these big companies like EA/Activision/Embracer/Nintendo will not ever let that happen again. Unless some government makes them. That's the only way.

>>11928339
Willits's level design is largely average, and also most likely not even his own, rather his sister's/half-sister's.

>>11925559 (OP)
doom eternal has an editor
I would like them to give some attention to 2016's multiplayer

They don't want you using their assets and coming up with a better game.

Happened with dota, blizzard gave ppl tools to make their own games, and they made a game so successful it became it's own game.

Imagine if world of warcraft had a "make your own wow" editor, dedicated players and fans would inevitably make a version of wow so amazing that puts the "real" game to shame, or they'd use it to come up with some other creative game that becomes insanely popular, higher ups would start asking "why the fuck didn't you think of that" and "what the fuck are we even paying you bozos for if 3 dudes in a garage can come up and deliver a concept better than the 1000's of useless employees im currently paying".

Devs don't release creative tools to the public because it's a threat to their own existence and ego.

>>11929262
>fans would inevitably make a version of wow so amazing
Didn't happen in 20 years with bethesda's editors

>>11929284
But it did happen with Warcraft 3.

>>11929284
TR will release any day now!

>>11929262
>Devs don't release creative tools to the public because it's a threat to their own existence and ego.
This mentality probably DOES exist in the industry, both on the creative and financial level, but at the same time, if a good game also has good modding, that's widely perceived as dramatically increasing the potential creative and financial value of the product to a consumer, and that's something which does get leaned into.

>>11925559 (OP)
Why let players make free content when they could sell DLC?

>>11929686
Yeah their game and company stays relevant for longer, accumulates good will etc. I mean there's online games that benefit for retaining players, not having dead servers and statistics.

And nowadays players go through launchers and interfaces and ads for new releases and sales, so there's financial incentive there too.

>>11925626
>WC3/Dota incident was the final nail.
What was the incident?

>>11930479
DOTA started life as a Warcraft 3 map/mod, and Blizzard seethes eternally that they didn't own the rights to DOTA because DOTA was very successful.

>>11927365
1. People are poorer now, they have to scramble to survive & don't have time or energy for modding.
2. The community is gone because half of them went all in on Big Mike Gentle Giant, TDS, lockdown, etc hysteria starting in 2014. Some places earlier. The other half were purged, quit, got married, had kids, etc. Thankfully they purged enough people to form a vast resistance, but even apolitical gaming sites tolerate hysterical leftist sniping because freeze peach, or are made up of equally hysterically moralfags.

There is no genuine anti-leftist gaming site

>>11927381
There's nothing wrong with derivative stuff, but no one makes high quality derivative stuff. Unicorn Overlord was one exception.

>>11928339
>too busy spending money trying to force gamers to like things
Gaming is like dating in that you can't force attraction. No one wants whatever dumb shit you're pushing and the latest marketroid trick will just piss them off. If you successfully pull a trick on us, we'll be even more pissesd oncecwe find out.

This analogy is making me empathize with women lol.

>>11929284
Melee combat jank is too much. I could see an autobattler RTS, Final Fantasy 12 ripoff, FFT ripoff, or a Tenchu/Thief ripoff being made.

>>11930493
Creativity doesn't scale. They should know this. You can make more money as a nonvoting stock owner in a team of 14 straight White guys than as owner of 3000 subcon slavedevs.

It was the MBAs who insisted on transforming the former into the latter.

>>11930834
>This analogy is making me empathize with women lol.
Incelbros... we're losing him..

>>11927381
>The games being put out aren't worth making mod communities for
Also true, and not even BECAUSE of the derivative part, hell, Doom was strongly derivative itself, one of the key concepts for Doom was to combine the themes of the two favorite movies of the iD Software guys, Aliens and Evil Dead 2.
And you can see those themes if you look at Doom, but they also didn't just rip those movies off bit for bit, hell, before starting development they even considered to outright do it as an Aliens license game for a short bit, seeing that they could seek the license, but they decided that they'd rather do their own thing instead without having Fox dictating them.

The way that Doom is derivative is that it does its own things inspired by the themes of cool movies. The way many modern games are derivative is that they are poor/mediocre licensed adaptions of series which are now old as fuck, a continual corporate milking of existing properties (compare to Aliens and Evil Dead 2 not being that old yet in 1993).
Doom and Doom 2 are also games with solid gameplay and design at their core, which is generally the most important ingredient to a lively modding scene, if the game isn't any fun to play, then people aren't even gonna bother modding it much, they'll play and mod a better game instead. Its why Doom had strong modding even before there were good tools or sourceports, people loved the game that much.

The other way modern games tend to be derivative is that they are assembled according to economically calculated formulas, which is why in spite of all the technological possibilities we have today for making games, these titles end up feeling and playing so very similarly. Pic related.

Still waiting for a Hitman Blood Money editor

>>11925559 (OP)
>During the Doom era, a team of 5 people can ship a groundbreaking never seen before game.
Because barrier of entry was lower. If Doom released today it would be seen as boring and repetitive, which it is.

>>11932918
>Doom
>Boring and repetitive