Thread 11930863

Why do consolefags hate using save states, when it was a common feature on PC?

>>11930863 (OP)
Consolechads have the masculine urge to triumph over challenges, PCincels are neurotic wimps

>>11930863 (OP)
Because it takes away all the challenge from the game? Of course a storyfag wouldn't get it

it's a game design crutch that trivializes difficulty and decision making
>dude, I LOVE choices and consequences
>immediately loads a save as soon as something doesn't go his way

>>11930885
PC games allow for more complexity so I'd rather the challenge be figuring out the logic not it being mechanical skill. Savestates dont ruin anything on PC that way except if it's an arcade type game like Doom

Example: DKC2. There are multiple stages between save points and you need resources (DK gold coins iirc) if you want to save a 2nd time in an area.
In the game you'd be set back 2-4 levels if you lost your last life, with a save state you can try as many times as you want. If you're on your last life, you take fewer risks and feel more tension. It's part of the game and save states take that away.
You're only ruining the experience for yourself. No one is impressed that you beat a video game; why remove the challenge which is where the satisfaction of victory comes from, just to say you beat a game?
You have to really, really suck at video games to try to justify this shit.

only reason to use save states is for practice purposes, but it's not a legitimate way of playing the game
It's like if you used the 30 lives code in Contra to practice the later stages and then just didn't go for a real run

>>11930863 (OP)
PC gamers do tend to use games like glorified fidget toys, I find.
It's why all those political twitch spergs play PC games. It only takes 10% percent of their attention and they can devote another 10% to political discussion and the remaining 80% to pondering what they'll goon to next.
Good console games require one's full attention and the fun comes from overcoming the challenge, so bypassing that makes no sense. People justifiably take offense to people perverting retro games with save states just so they can tick a title off on their backlog.
Stay stimming, PC fag.

>>11930909
What's the point of complexity if I can send all my niggas to auto attack the enemy and savescum until I win?

>>11930943
>>11930937
Consolefags would never get it. All they know is sidescroll shooter, topdown shooter and """rpg"""""
The real games were on the PC. Not your toys.

>>11931019
>nuh-uh!
Nice argument lol

>>11930863 (OP)
>He used quick save/quick load

You didn't beat the game.

Becaue PC games are unchallenging spreadsheets so it's no big deal if you savescum there.

>console game gets ported to pc
>first thing these "hardcore master race" faggots do is mod it to remove all challenge

PC onlies crying whenever they can't savescum does out them as total bitches, desu.

>>11930943
Because if you're playing an RTS, it doesn't matter how many saves you use, if you don't have unit superiority, you're going to lose every single time you dumb nigger.

Why do console niggers think save anywhere is a magical "I win" button? Oh, right, because they're peasants.

>>11931063
You can save state an RTS game easily. You just make staggered saves after each important decision.

>>11931067
I forgot to add, you can also set the speed way down so they are easier, too.

>>11931067
>>11931072
>after each important decision
You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and it's really obvious, just like all the other butthurt dipshits in this thread aggressively posturing that their children's toy is a hardcore skill-based challenge.

If you want real challenge, go play a PC game you fucking nintoddler.

>>11931076
What are you talking about, you retard? You can save your game at any time in any major RTS game.

>>11931063
I wasn't talking about rts, you can make multiple saves and go back before you fuck up anyway

>>11931086
Your games aren't hard when you only have 4 buttons to press, lmao.

>>11931076
I play videogames not read books you fucken pcfattie

>>11931067
>staggered saves
They're called rotated saves you fucking retard.

>>11931063
>The gameplay in an RTS is completely superficial and pointless as the result is already determined by factors beforehand
Based

>>11931095
Of course, because you're an illiterate child, lmao.

>>11931102
>I made up a complete strawman argument, heh I win
Cringe

>>11930909
>I'd rather the challenge be figuring out the logic not it being mechanical skill
aka looking up a guide

>>11930863 (OP)
Autism?

Consolekeks get mad because all their games are really simple and made to be obtuse so kids can rent them and nostalgiafag.
When you realize that PC games are for rich, learned adults or children of those adults, and that the console is consumer grade and industrialized, unlike the PC which is a customizable, engineered product for people who knew what they where doing, you get sick in your stomach. What's even the point if they never knew what's good for them? Can they know? Every single idea done in the console was done better on the PC. It's magical

>>11931092
>Game's difficulty is determined by how many keys the controls are binded to
Yep, that's based

>>11930863 (OP)
Console-kiddies have extensively been cope-posting about saving whenever for years, and it's due to the fact that their games and systems had limited memory, which meant saving anywhere was a luxury, and in order to pretend like it wasn't an inherent flaw in the platform, they decided to pretend that it was actually better, and that rinse-and-repeat difficulty challenges in games designed to be 50 minutes long was a feature, not a bug.

With save anywhere you can:
>try risky tactics, alternate dialogue options, or unusual strategies without fear of losing substantial progress.
>Minimize the need to replay large sections after failure, cutting down on frustration and redundant gameplay.
>pause progress at any moment, creating a personal rhythm instead of being locked to the game’s intended save points.
>allow short gaming sessions with unpredictable free time windows without having to go through the same content repeatedly
>provide protection against sudden difficulty spikes or potential game-breaking bugs
>Crashes, power outages, or hardware instability cause far less loss of progress.

But sure, let's all pretend that you're some kind of athlete because you play with checkpoints, which automatically saves the game for you since your dumb baby brain is too incapable of doing it on your own.

>>11931115
PC gaming wasn't even good up until like 2011 when Steam got big.

>>11931120
>retard is actually trying to argue that game complexity is not an inherent measurement of difficulty with expanse of controls being one of the primary measurements

You guys are spergs

>>11931125
Really nigga?

>>11931131
Yes. No one took PC as a serious platform up until the 7th gen, and even then it was only because consoles caved in by having PC-like architectures that made it easier to port actually good games to PC.

>>11931125
>PC gaming wasn't even good until 2011

>>11931126
>Make a quick save before my next decision
>Check the manual for the right key command
>I hold down alt+shift+x while alternating between F2 and the Enter key while holding down the Space bar with my chin and opening the cd drive with my right foot
>Command works and the brilliantly designed game sprite drinks a spot of tea
>Game freezes
>Illegal Operation dialog
>Blue screens
>Computer shuts off
Based beyond belief

>>11931132
>no one took the PC platform seriously until 7th gen
Nigger, you've been porting PC games to consoles and butchering them since the fuckin NES, lmao.

>Choplifter
>Lode Runner
>Wizardry
>Bard's Tale
>King's Quest
>Ultima 3
>Ultima 4
>SimCity
>Wing Commander
>Civilization
>Lemmings
>Wolfenstein 3D
>Doom
>Eye of the Beholder
>Myst

>>11931121
>rinse-repeat challenges in games designed to be 50 minutes long was a bug
Super Mario Bros 3 in 1988 has 90 levels and is a progression focused game. The fact that console releases stuck with the arcade format well after that is irrefutable proof that it was an intended feature. Any other reasoning is essentially unfalsifiable retard shit like claiming every game ever was only hard because of rentals or something and no one ever deliberately made their games hard for the sake of it ever

>>11931138
Actually
Yes, that would be awesome

>>11931132
>consoles caved in by having PC-like architectures
Pc masterrace won

>>11931140
>The fact that console releases stuck with the arcade format well after that is irrefutable proof that it was an intended feature
Right, except for the fact that Final Fantasy and Phantasy star both used save anywhere mechanics built into their games....Completely taking a big fat donkey dick dump on your argument.

>>11930863 (OP)
Savestates are one of the best QOL features; they allow for all kinds of approaches and more ambitious design decisions. Softlock scenarios are preventable, unlike checkpoint-based systems where you have to simplify your design to avoid softlock scenarios.

>>11931139
>Choplifter
>Lode Runner
Better on NES
>Wizardry
>Bard's Tale
>King's Quest
>Ultima 3
>Ultima 4
Forgettable spreadsheet RPGs for people who didn't actually play them, but want to look smart on the internet. Imagine actually telling me you'd rather play this than Final Fantasy 6
>Wing Commander
Consoles have actually fun shmups so not needed
>Civilization
fine on console
>Lemmings
Shovelware
>SimCity
Better on SNES
>Wolfenstein 3D
>Doom
Consoles have actually good and challenging action games so not needed
>Eye of the Beholder
See 2nd point
>Myst
nongame, feels right at home on PC actually

>>11931153
Are you retarded? I didn't say literally every single console game stayed an arcade game. You stupid fucking nigger retard. KYS

>>11931102
No sometimes there's rng involved and you can savescum the battles

>>11931161
>The fact that console releases stuck with the arcade format well after that is irrefutable proof that it was an intended feature.
They clearly didn't, since those games abandoned arcadey dogshit gameplay, and as soon as memory cards became a standardized thing, more games started pushing save anywhere, or at least manual save options with limitations.

>>11931168
>since those games abandoned arcadey dogshit gameplay
Define exactly what "arcadey dogshit gameplay" means and why arcade-style consoles do not have it.

>>11931154
Good games never simplified decisions for that sake. Decisions have consequences. Good PC games with weighted decisions make it so they play out later on instead of instantly.

>>11931168
>since those games abandoned arcadey dogshit gameplay
Define exactly what "arcadey dogshit gameplay" means and why arcade-style console games do not have it.

>>11931158
Only Ultima sucks there

>>11931158
>Forgettable spreadsheet RPGs for people who didn't actually play them, but want to look smart on the internet. Imagine actually telling me you'd rather play this than Final Fantasy 6
They only invented the genre and influenced your favorite console-kiddie RPG's (Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest), but sure, lmao.

>Consoles have actually fun shmups so not needed
And none of them are remembered, lmao.

>fine on console
>downgrade in every sense for a console-kiddie is "fine"

>Shovelware
Just like Starfox.

>better on SNES
>smaller map
>worse controls
>lack of city statistics
>fewer disaster options
>dumb down economic model
>""""better""""
LOL

>Consoles have actually good and challenging action games so not needed
Strange then how none of them are remembered like Doom and Wolfenstein are.

>See 2nd point
See above.

>nongame, feels right at home on PC actually
Of course a nintoddler who only knows how to press 2 buttons would say this. Puzzle games are too cerebral for you.

>>11931172
They did, anon. When technology improves, designers start taking more risks and try different approaches. Checkpoint systems are mostly bad and should be optional.

>>11931174
>and why arcade-style console games do not have it.
Well first off, they aren't arcade-style console games if they don't have them you fucking idiot, lmao, off to a great start with the self-contradiction paradoxes today.

>>11931186
>they only walked so good games could run
We know but that doesn't mean they suck

>>11931191
>there are arcade-style games on console (i.e. games where you experience the entire campaign in one unbroken sitting and the goal is mastery)
>well those games aren't REAL arcade shit because they don't have arcade dogshit gameplay!
>what is arcade dogshit gameplay?
>uhhhhhh if your game is an arcade-style game it has arcade dogshit gameplay
Why are pcniggers so mentally deranged, disingenuous, and retarded?

>>11931192
>QUICK, MOVE THE GOALPOST
Classic.

I credit feed arcade games lmao

>>11931204
>Why are pcniggers so mentally deranged, disingenuous, and retarded?
Ironic, coming from the retard-nigger-slut dumb-faggot that just made up a strawman argument out of thin air.

Maybe if you replied genuinely instead of trying to force other people into circular arguments where you not-so-cleverly end up being automatically right, then I would engage with you.

>>11931206
Not moving the goalpost just stating facts, no one gives a shit about them meanwhile you have millions of people still discussing FF7.

Whenever you see someone actually mentioning those games they go "I guess I'll play the games that started my favorite genre jrpgs lol" because that's all they are

>>11931210
explain in exact detail, in every step of the way, what "arcadey dogshit gameplay" is, and multiple examples of what it is and what it isn't, and then we can proceed. Until then you're just making up random buzzwords that don't mean anything.

>>11931213
>forgettable RPG's that no one liked and weren't for REAL RPG players!

>proven wrong by them being loved by the designers of Japanese RPGS

>B-B-B-But they were just a blueprint!

You're so fucking lost and out of your depth it's hilarious. I'm running circles around you and you don't even know it.

>>11931214
Trial and error crap like Touhou

>>11931216
>everyone =/= a few japanese guys that made the games that everyone actually likes

>>11931217
Touhou has a non-negligable amount of randomization of bullet patterns and instant respawns, there's nothing "trial and error" about it. It's not even a console game, it's a computer game. What are you doing here?

>>11931208
Based, I save state everything I play because what matters is seeing all of the game's content, not pretending I'm hot shit for 1cc some game no one gives a fuck about.

>>11931218
>a few japanese guys that made games that everyone actually likes
Interesting, since those American devs also did that, hence why everyone plays RPG's you dumb fucking nigger-mutt.

>>11931220
It's an arcade released for pc

>>11931224
Incorrect, americans only made games a few nerds like

>>11931229
Interesting argument.

>>11931235
Literally the only games anyone gives a fuck here are the Nintendo ones, wow you won some bronze but didn't get any gold

>>11931221
>I save state everything I play because what matters is seeing all of the game's content
How is this any better than just watching a 100% youtube playthrough?

>>11931246
Because I get to play the game? Duh
Though with adventure games I would rather just watch a long play because those games are just cartoons/movies

>>11930908
Good. I don't want to waste my fucking time.

>>11931189
Just see modern games for proof of this!

>>11931253
Then stop playing video games

>>11931290
He finds enjoyment in video games with save states, is that so much of a sin? Accessibility features aren't the end of the world, save states are kino>>11931260

>>11930863 (OP)
No save states on a console.

>Game A lets you save anywhere so it's ok do it in Game B even it doesn't naturally allow it

Not how it works. Different games, different rules, how fucking hard is it to understand that? Should all the pieces in chess be able to move diagonally accross the board because that's what you can do in checkers?
I realize that with modern gaming every game is the same so maybe that's why it's hard to realize for some retards.

Secondly, being able to save anywhere in computer games stems from a different design philosophy, that that you should be able to quitt at any time to work. It's the same principle or rather the extension of the "boss key", since (You) don't know what that is I suggest you look it up.

>>11930863 (OP)
Quick saves give the developer no incentive to design anything with any thought behind it because they know the player has immediate access to an undo button. When you use saves states in games not made for them, it cheapens the design and challenge, e.g. saving after every boss in a boss rush. May as well use a game genie code that takes you straight to the credits if you're just going to ignore the game's rules.

>>11931954
>Quick saves give the developer no incentive to design anything with any thought behind it because they know the player has immediate access to an undo button.
Wild how you can say something this retarded when some of the most balanced games of all time have quicksave.

>Doom
>Half-Life
>Duke Nukem 3D
>Quake

>>11931245
>only games anyone gives a fuck about are the nintendo ones
>shitting on Namco like that
Damn, you're fucking stupid.

>>11931954
>Quick saves give the developer no incentive to design anything with any thought behind it
Adding to what >>11932193 said
RPGs have done choices and consequences and RNG despite having the ability to quicksave

Some players are savescummers, but rarely do I see games developed with solely them in mind

>>11932204
You mean Capcom?

>>11932193
Thanks for that list of a whole 4 games, but despite how well designed they are, all of them (excluding Duke, haven't played it) still have moments where save scumming is too strong of a strategy to ignore.

>>11932193
I did not use quick-save on any of these. Did they actually have that feature?

I think when you examine the issue closely you'll realize that for much of the big pc genres, designed in such a way that savescumming is either irrelevant or doesn't trivialize them.
>strategy
most prominent titles in the genre like civ are designed around boardgame like campaigns. you can savescum but it's just cheating, like house rules in monopoly
>rts
designed around missions/battles. when you gg you start over.
>doom clones
designed around compact self contained levels completed in a single go. any serious player goes back to level start on death unless they're playing something that's particularly bullshit like final doom plutonia.
>rpgs
systematic games where it's often feasible to attempt ironman runs. the frequency of deaths you're likely to encounter will be so broad that checkpoint segments would be pointless. any discerning player could have a save at inn rule and be content. the point is to roleplay and survive long term.
>economy builders and sims of all kinds
again either boardgame like campaigns or scenarios
>point and click adventure games
their is some beef here with games that follow the sierra model but obviously lucas arts countered this.
>post 2000 half life style shooters
I mean you got me here, though it's not like this wasn't exactly as prevalent on console.

>>11932321
You can make mistakes in all those games.
>>post 2000 half life style shooters
>I mean you got me here
What

Such a dumb fucking brain fart post

>>11930863 (OP)
I grew up with PC. Save states destroy any sense of high stakes, and when there's no stakes, there's no feeling of achievement. There's also no sense of "do this obstacle course in one go" that console games have.
Save states are pretty much God mode, not too different from rewind for zoomers. Using them is not a "flex", it's admitting you can't handle difficulty, and for devs who implement them it's admitting they can't design games.

>>11932453
I don't think save staters even realize how much it affects the experience.

I don't care about the challenge part, anyone can spend time practicing and memorizing, but the stakes and continuing with the choices or mishappenings is something that can bring out the best of games.

Of course there's players who are autistic about playing it safe and optimizing the life out of games, so they would probably restart the whole game without quickloads anyways..

What I mean to say: I recommend playing without loading saves sometimes

>>11932483
I agree, I myself didn't realize how much they ruin games
>got back into retro after a long break, got myself a handheld
>decided to use save states """to save time"""
>slowly notice I don't enjoy games anymore
>thought I got old
>decide to not use saves
>immediately games feel good like "back in the day"
Also just after that I started noticing how well 1-ups are placed in quality titles.
With that said… I do feel like some games benefit from SOME states. Like, I set myself a challenge to beat Vice City on PS2 with no saves. I did it, but at times I felt miserable. Retrying entire missions over and over was no fun. And the way it's designed, you basically have to reload your save—no option to restart the mission immediately, and of course no checkpoints for long missions.

>>11930863 (OP)
Because ConsoleChads are actual gamers and not losers like PCheaters.

>>11930863 (OP)
Consolecucks don't like having control over their experience. They don't like having options. They want to be forced to play their games a certain way.
PCchads take charge and mold the games they play to their preferences. Want to savescum like crazy? They can do that. Want to pistol start every level in Doom? They can do that too!
I like having options. I like playing games on my terms. That's why I play on PC.

>>11930863 (OP)
Savescumming takes away all sense of challenge and tension. It facilitates the strategy of mindlessly flinging yourself into something repeatedly instead of learning and building skill.

>>11931105
BASED PC MASTER RACE

There are certain PC games where save states are a must like Commandos.

>>11930937
Meds

>>11930885
Then why was it included in the game? Its literary a mechanic in it.

>>11932321
Literally no one that plays computer rpgs limit themselves to save at the inn, they either let the autosave handle everything and deal with whatever bad shit happens or quicksave every 15 minutes and go for a perfect run

>>11933114
Crpgs (and other games with RNG) are the poster child for savescumming

>>11932417
my point is that a player that wishes to avoid savescumming on pc can do so in many cases without feeling like the game is working against them or they have to impose some convoluted contrivance. I admitted that half life style shooters that are a long sequence of blurred gameplay segments are an exception to my argument.

>>11933114
>Literally no one that plays computer rpgs limit themselves to save at the inn
some people do this, that's why iron man modes exist. but my larger point was that you can do this and have the game remain a reasonable experience.

>>11932453
>There's also no sense of "do this obstacle course in one go" that console games have.
most fps made before half life were like this.

>>11934203
>that a player that wishes to avoid savescumming on pc can do so in many cases without feeling like the game is working against them
Of course, in any game ever made on any platform.

Nonsensical to point out half life as an exception out of all games

Save states are bullshit and obvious cheating if used on a full run of a game.
They are helpful for practicing difficult segments that are 10+ minutes after the last save point.
This isn't a big deal and is an acceptable use case for save states.
Anyway, I don't care if other people cheat single player because they suck; I don't. They're only cucking themselves out of the satisfaction of winning fairly.

>>11930928
One thing you're failing to mention is how easy it was to harvest balloons for lives in the first couple of levels along with the gold coins which allowed you to save. Just press start and exit out of the level once you got that balloon at the start of the level. Then save and proceed with whatever world you were having trouble with.

>>11934219
Nobody cares if you cheat in a game. Back when I was a kid, the other kid in class who had a gamegenie or gameshark was the kid you wanted to have hangover to try it out on your console because of all the weird shit or cheats for maxxed out lives or going to other levels. And there was nothing more fun to then to spawn a shitload of tanks or getting all weapons in GTA with a few cheats you found at the back of your Gamepro magazine.
What changed all this was universal achievements that came along with the 360 20 years ago and turned everything into tryhard sweats that has condoned the use of cheats.

>>11934240
I don't think anyone would have a problem with cheating that's just done for the purpose of messing around or trying to break the game. if you're doing a standard playthrough of the game and cheating solely to prevent yourself from going back a few minutes then it's kind of lame.

>>11931253
Then why are you on 4chan

Why do so many people want to ruin my fun? It's so mean and gatekeepy fr

>>11931047
people teach computers to play console games via "AI". They can't make them play complex PC games, because they require a brain. Console gaming is pure execution, through trial and error mostly (aka memorise the game so you can make it through in one go, 1CCing), PC gaming is strategising, acting and reacting to ever changing conditions and planning ahead, literally the thinking man's way of enjoying vidya.
Mind you, there's nothing wrong with either, but know that console gaming is mindless fun, while PC gaming is mindful fun.

>>11930863 (OP)
you keep getting gay, fake answers.

its because a lot of PC games were very cheaply designed for inconsistent hardware. When the poorly designed games wouldn't soft lock you, your pc would crash. That being said, it was brilliant and elegant, a one size fits all solution to massive technical issues that made the player feel in control of fixing their own problems while also doubling as a great QOL feature. there are probably programming reasons as well that made it more simple but im not going to pretend like I know that for a fact.

We like to actually beat the game (unlike you, who didn't beat the game)

>>11934685
Do you realize "computers" could always play computer games? It's called an ai opponent and many "complex" strategy games have them

This thread is conflating save states with quicksaving.

>>11934213
For once I kind of agree. Doom and Blood weren't made with savescumming in mind.

>>11930908
/thread/

>>11930908
>>dude, I LOVE choices and consequences
*checks guide walkthroughs to make sure i only make the best choices with the best consequences*

>>11932608
Dangerous based