Thread 11947518

>Originally intended to have sprite and background scaling but got replaced with Master System support because of Pal markets.
>Lack of sprite and background scaling caused Super Thunder Blade to suffer, Space Harrier 2 was good but was not as good as the original.
>8 (A, B, C, X, Y, Z as well as the L and R solder buttons) (10 counting Mode and Start) button controllers were needed at launch.
>Genesis should've had video mixing support for Master System (and later Game Gear) support, also with SG-1000 and YM2413 support in said adaptor.
>Needed 2 YM2612 chips, not just 1.
>Needed to use a 16MHz 68020 so games can be up to 4GB in size, helping the Sega CD (which would be just a basic 2X CD-Rom drive with more ram) in the long run.
>Needed 256 sprites and 64 sprites per scanline, not 80 sprites and 20 per scan line as the lack of built in Master System support will allow more sprite ram.
>Built in Master System support limited the background layers to 2 with only 1 window layer, without master System support it would've done 4 with 2 window layers.
>61 out of 512 colors on screen was strictly because of Master System support, without Master System support the color pallet would've been 481 (240 for sprites and 241 for backgrounds/windows) out of 32,768 colors, 15/16 color pallets with transparency.
>4 players out of the box, not 2.
>256KB of main ram, 128KB of video ram and 128KB of sound ram.

It’s incredible just how barebones it is in hardware. You beat Sonic 1, 2 and 3 and Knuckles and you’re done with it. While thats not the entire library (see Revenge of Shinobi, Streets of Rage 1, 2 and 3, Monster World 3 and 4, ect.) thats all people care about it.

That's a lot of words. Do you play games?

>>11947532
The Genesis cost $90 to make and was selling for $250 when it launched in Japan, they can remove some of that profit.

>>11947535
No, he only discusses "what ifs" that serve no purpose.

Could the Genesis have been saved? wait, it was a great success and kept up with the SNES until the Saturn was ready to launch

>>11947535
>>11947553
Yes, I do play games.

>>11947518 (OP)
>It’s incredible just how barebones it is in hardware. You beat Sonic 1, 2 and 3 and Knuckles and you’re done with it. While thats not the entire library (see Revenge of Shinobi, Streets of Rage 1, 2 and 3, Monster World 3 and 4, ect.) thats all people care about it.

>>11947559
No you don't
See>>11947560

>>11947563
I have over 40 Genesis games.

>>11947568
Then why are you claiming that's all people care about.

This is gonna be spammed for a few days and with different consoles, isn't it.

>>11947572
yep. We need to beg the jannies to change the rules to video game discussion only. This uninformed what-if shit is so tiresome.

>>11947518 (OP)
You are dumb. It would have never had specs anything like that.

A more realistic spec is 128 colors. 128kb vram (originally intended). Maybe we could bump the palette size to 4096 colors.

Also, more die space would not allow more sprites. The genesis can render 320 sprite pixels per line, any more would require the thing to be double clocked. This would also require higher VRAM bandwidth.

>>11947518 (OP)
The biggest thing is the sprite scaling which would have been cool. But they did overtake nintendo for a bit, which no one thought was even possible. So they must have done something right.

>>11947584
YES IT WOULD!!!

The VDP can do alot more then 128 (really 121) colors out of 4096 colors but because this still will have internal CRam instead of external CRam it's limited to 481 (or 512 in your logic) colors out of 32,768 colors just to maintain the scaling hardware in the VDP.

if the CRam was done externally it can do up to 262,144 colors on screen at once (meaning the whole pallet) but the CRam bus would've been a 3rd 8-Bit ram bus, allowing the ram bus to be 24-Bit, meaning up to 16MB of ram is supported (with the Z80 bus meant for Master System support being replaced with a extra 8-Bits for the data bus, allowing the VDP to be 100% 24-Bit) so the CRam has to be 100% internal.

OP already said 128KB of video ram.

The Genesis can only do 80 sprites and 20 per scanline, it needed to have 256 sprites and 64 sprites per scanline.

>>11947572
Yep

>>11947568
And? Owning a game doesn't mean you play it

>>11947615
You have no idea what you are talking about. Your entire post is incoherent gibberish.

>>11947665
Yes I do know what I'm talking about.

>>11947535
He played sonic 1-3 (on his ds) then nothing else and then projected that reality to every other Genesis owner because he's some console warring faggot tendie

>>11947615
Holy pseud

>>11947518 (OP)
The Genesis would've flopped with the specs you're proposing because it would've been too expensive. It was plenty powerful for a late 80s/early 90s console. It could've stayed relevant for even longer if Sega didn't prematurely kill support for it.

>>11947710
The Genesis cost $90 to make ands was being sold for $250 at launch, they can afford to have a smaller profit.

>>11947727
Is that 90$ in parts alone?

>>11947747
Thats $90 for everything.

>>11947748
Marketing included?

>>11947518 (OP)
> The schizo console fantasist that barely understands economics or understands how consoles work
nice
>Originally intended to have sprite and background scaling but got replaced with Master System support because of Pal markets.
post source
>>Needed 2 YM2612 chips
1 was already expensive
> 68020
> in 1988
also expensive
>61 out of 512 colors on screen was strictly because of Master System support,
you can change any palette on any line to any colour. you can have hundreds of colours on screen at the same time
like i said, you barely understand anything and it's just sad. even sadder is that you keep creating these cringe threads and never learn anything. i wish you all the best with your severe down syndrome.

>>11947710
specs like that would have made the neogeo look like a pile of shit.

>>11947759
Yes.

>>11947518 (OP)
>It’s incredible just how barebones it is in hardware. You beat Sonic 1, 2 and 3 and Knuckles and you’re done with it. While thats not the entire library (see Revenge of Shinobi, Streets of Rage 1, 2 and 3, Monster World 3 and 4, ect.) thats all people care about it.
Shit, guess most of my personal collection doesn't exist

>>11947761
Not a schizo thread.

Sega staff already said that the Genesis had 2 options, sprite and background scaling with more sprites, more background layers and more colors on screen or Master System support with less sprites, less background layers and less colors on screen, they choose Master System support because of Europe.

The YM2612 costed less then a dollar a chip in 1988, it was dirt cheap.

The 68000 was $15 dollars in 1984, by 1988 the 68020 barely cost anything and will be worth it as the 68000 costed pennies on the dollar in 1988.

>>11947518 (OP)
>If you reply and call the bullshit you get warned/banned for off topic because, shut up!
>No you don't have the right to call out the fuckness

Seriously, who is making all this bot threads? Is it really that bad.

>>11947841
>>11947518 (OP)
Dead Internet Theory, gets realer every day.

>>11947865
been going on for ages..
> take console
> invent fantasy specs
> leave the thread
same with all the 1 post IDs on pol. going theory is that 4chan staff are creating a lot of the trash or people buying passes to just bot spam via vpns. hard to say. needs to end.

>>11947518 (OP)
Don't know but I finally got one of these bad boys and I can't wait to play Sonic on original hardware. Anyone have any lesser-known Megadrive recs?

>>11947929
This image makes me sad

>>11947518 (OP)
>was the Genesis rushed
Every console that ever made it to market was rushed.

>>11947518 (OP)
most consoles have a story like this
>the snes's cpu was originally chosen for backwards compatibility, but the idea was dropped so they were stuck with a piece of shit cpu that had no actual upsides. the dsp was supposed to be built into the console instead of being a special cartridge chip, but it was dropped to cut costs
>the jaguar has tons of hardware of bugs
>the 3do runs at half the clock speed that it was supposed to
>the n64 being bottlenecked by the ram's shitty latency was noticed too late in development and they had no choice but to ship it knowing that it had this glaring bottleneck
>everything about the saturn
>microsoft knew about the overheating issue that the 360 had, released the console anyway because they wanted it to rush it out
>the ps3 was supposed to have 2 cell instead of a gpu, but then some guy from naughty dog them how retarded that was so they had to get some piece of shit from nvidia to replace the second cell

>>11948078
> the ps3 was supposed to have 2 cell instead of a gpu
I am pretty sure the ps3 was originally supposed to have a custom gpu that was similar to the ps2 gpu. But they could not make it work. Having two cells was a potential solution, but I doubt it was ever a serious consideration. Cpus are terrible at rendering graphics unless they have specialized graphics features such as texture sampling instructions.

>>11948078
Not the case as...

>The Super NES' CPU was picked to reuse dev tools from the NES, not backwards compatibility as by December of 1988 The Super NES theres was no backwards compatibility and the "backwards compatibility" was just video mixing with a redesigned NES which was sold separately, the video mixing was rejected in favor of more work ram and the redesigned NES wouldn't see release until 1993, prier to that decision the Super NES was going to use a 16MHz 68020 to aid with the (canceled) CD-Rom's disc space so the system can read the whole CD-Rom at once.
https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1988Q4.html
>The rejected internal DSP chip was only a thing once Nintendo made the jump to the 65816 CPU as the 68020 was powerful enough to not need a DSP chip, that and the system was supposed to have 3 PPU rather then 2, the Super NES ended up having 2 to cut costs as the system had features that got cut due to cost that were added back in as add on chips (such as bitmap support, wireframe support, W and Z axis and sprite scaling as the Super NES can only do background scaling).
>The N64's use of Rambus Ram was only used due to unsold stock with those chips, Nintendo would've used SDRam otherwise.

>>11947761
I was gonna say, don't the Shadow/Highlight modes give the Genesis more of an opportunity to display more colors than it normally should?

>>11947615
thanks chatgpt

>>11947945
Yeah I can't verbalize what it is, but that image is a very concentrated blast of despair

>>11947841
>Sega staff already said
When someone asks for source, they're looking for something they can view for themselves to verify a claim. From where did you learn that Sega staff had said this?

>>11949091
https://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/3/7952705/sega-genesis-masami-ishikawa

>>11947539
>the MD would have sprite scaling, 4 background layers, more sprite ram, etc, for the master system support
Any source on this? even if thats technically true it would still add a lot to the cost and does not make it viable
>8 button controller at launch!!!

>The Genesis cost $90 to make and was selling for $250 when it launched in Japan
Retarded argument, as if r&d, packaging, distribution, and stores are all willing to do this for free.
And does this $90 figure also include the controller, power brick, av cables, etc as well?

>>11947572
Yep, expect a SNES version of this shitpost in a few days time.

>>11949137
Nowhere in that article does it say that master system support is the reason why it doesnt have sprite scaling/rotation. it would've simply been too expensive.
Same for the CPU, the article praises the strenght of 68000

>>11947518 (OP)
The console released in 1988. Tech was expensive back then. And I don't mean for consumers.

>>11947539
>The Genesis cost $90 to make
I don't believe that for even one second.

>>11949137
> anon asks for source
> source says nothing about scaling
excuse me sir, you dropped this:

>>11948659
>don't the Shadow/Highlight modes give the Genesis more of an opportunity to display more colors than it normally should?
yeah. subtraction or addition of colours in whatever used palette.

>>11949223
you'll never get any source from this anon, only ramblings.

>>11949223
>And does this $90 figure also include the controller, power brick, av cables, etc as well?
Yes.
>>11949247
Thats because by 1988 they were pennies on the dollar, the was the "Strength of 68000".

Sega even said that they didn't have room for both sprite and background sprite scaling/rotation and Master System support and only picked Master System support because of Pal markets.
>>11949272
The Genesis costed $90 to make and was being sold for $250, they can cut their profits.
>>11949291
That was the case.
>>11949542
>>11949553
Yes it did.
https://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/3/7952705/sega-genesis-masami-ishikawa
Also >>11949247 and this post.

>>11948969
It's very easy to verbalize what it is. Dude has a big collection of stuff, but it's all just a mess down to the TV being slightly tilted to the side, so you get a mental picture of someone depressed or a slob.

>>11949805
> says nothing about scaling
> posts the same link again
did the author edit the page since last time you posted it, loser schizo? it only makes you look like a liar. and a really bad one. anyway, you're just a sad and disgusting compulsive liar and i hope to god that you kill yourself as soon as possible just so we don't have to experience dealing with your severe mental illness ever again.

>>11949842
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/10755245/#q10755505
How about this?

>>11949849
> still says nothing about rotating and scaling
> also same link to cringe article
kill yourself, thanks. you're far too disgusting to interact with.

>>11949842
How about now?

>>11949854
Spinning = Rotating and Scaling incase anyone asks.

>>11949854
The transistor budget to support scaling (and rotation) is many times larger than any master system support has.
Stop making shit up, nowhere in the article do they blame sms support being the reason for the lack of scaling and 4 background layers.
Also I don't buy your argument that the 68000 was a cheaped out component when (again) providing no proof.

>>11949901
NTA, but how did the Genesis come so close to most arcade hardware spec-wise? It seemed like nearly every arcade board around the mid-late 80s used some flavor of m68k+z80.

>>11949901
Master System support ate up a large amount of the VDP's die, they didn't have space for both.

>>11949909
>Let me claim something without proof
Sure buddy

>>11947841
>pennies on the dollar
you don't know what this phrase means.

>>11950030
Yes, I do, it means it was extremely cheap.

>>11950345
that is not what that phrase means.

>>11950379
Yes, it is.

>>11950425
No, it is not. You are retarded.

>>11950435
You're the retard here, pennies on the dollar means it's extremely cheap.

>>11950345
pennies on the dollar means you got something for a fraction of its normal price, it means more than just "extremely cheap"
a ten cent piece of candy is extremely cheap, but I didnt get it for pennies on the dollar unless it was supposed to cost significantly more than that
you could have googled this and realized in seconds that you were wrong. or maybe your ability to think is so low-resolution that you wouldn't even see that you were wrong. either way you're an idiot

>>11950454
>Pennies on the dollar.
>"Pennies on the dollar" is an idiom that means something is being sold for a very low price, significantly less than its original value.
>The 68000 was released in 1979 and was a expensive chip in 1979, by 1984 the 68000 was only $15 and by 1988 the 68000 was much less then that.
In short, >>11950425 is right.

>>11950457
And the 68000 in 1988 was a fraction of what it cost in 1979.

You're the idiot in this thread.

>>11950454
The five dollar blowjobs I get from your crack whore mother are extremely cheap. I'm not getting them for pennies on the dollar though, because she charges everybody five dollars. She's not out there selling her mouth for five hundred dollars anywhere.

>>11950472
Pennies on the dollar = Cost is in cents.

>>11950462
>>11950465
Both wrong. "Pennies on the dollar" is a conditional statement referring to purchase price against something's current value, not against what it cost a decade ago. It's saying you got a bargain at the time of purchase. If I buy a car from the 70s for its current blue book value, I'm not getting a deal, no matter how much prices have dropped over the decades. I'm just buying it for how much it costs.
You both may actually be too stupid to understand this concept. How would you have felt last night if you hadn't had breakfast yesterday morning?

>>11950475
That's completely wrong.
If something is supposed to cost ten grand and I buy it for 200 bucks, I've bought it for pennies on the dollar. For each dollar of its actual value, I paid pennies instead.
This isn't a hard concept to grasp and it's bizarre and frankly concerning that so many of you are so confused by it.

I swear to god I remember seeing an actual cost breakdown of the genesis with a real legit source but I can't find it in the archives.

>>11950483
>>11950487
So you're saying "Buying at a loss".

>>11950503
How is buying something for a fraction of its purchase price "buying at a loss"? Are you absolutely fucking retarded?

>>11949806
That part is obvious enough, but there's another layer of arrested development and unawareness present in that picture that evokes a very particular type of pity

>>11950514
Product costs 1 dollars to make.
Product is only being sold for 4 cents.
Maker looses 96 cents per sale.
Meaning that the product is being sold at a loss.
Thats what pennies on the dollar means, you pay pennies for something that costs a dollar or more.

the thread started as pure unadulterated dogshit and has SOMEHOW managed to actually get worse.

>>11950532
Not the case.

>>11950528
>sold at a loss
What happened to "buying at a loss", dumbass?
>Thats what pennies on the dollar means, you pay pennies
No, you fucking moron, because if you buy something for five bucks when it's normally sold for 200, you've still bought it for pennies on the dollar. The phrase does not and has never referred to a purchase price of literal pennies. It's pennies (of purchase price) on the (each) dollar (of original value).
I legitimately cannot make this any simpler for your stupid ass. If you don't get it by now, you're either legitimately brain damaged or you're trolling.

>>11950537

>another stupid anon thinking they know better thread

dogshit

>yank spastics arguing over a stupid phrase

dogshit squared.

>Not the case

definatey the case

>>11950550
>You should just said "The chips were dirt cheap" because thats what you actually meant.

>You buy something for five bucks when it's normally sold for 200
Sounds like buying at a loss to me.

>>11950564
No, it's not the case, you're the one who has no idea what they're talking about.

>>11950475
What do you think it means to "nickel and dime" someone

>>11949854
> no link
>" sprite spinning"
lol
> says nothing about it being removed because sega master system compatibility, just says it was too expensive to implement
> still 0 mention of scaling
it's amazing how many lies to had to tell before you even got to this and it's disagrees with your shit post lies. just stop.

>>11949904
because the VDP used in genesis is based on similar chips used in the sega system 16 arcade board. basically the genesis is a cost reduced version of the system 16.

>>11952180
This is the new reality the dystopihomos are trying to sodomize us with, doubt your reality.

>>11948517
Is this the reason why so many earlier SNES games chugged down?

>>11949805
Zero sources for $90 cost to make the fucking thing in 1988. Just repeats the same brain dead shit over and over.

>>11952253
>>11952180
No, hers the source to where that image came from https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/10755245/#q10755505 and https://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/3/7952705/sega-genesis-masami-ishikawa
>>11952291
I just posted the source and it was brought up here before.

>>11952258
Part of it yes.

>>11952370
> keeps posting the same thing over and over again that says nothing
please die.

>>11952258
>Is this the reason why so many earlier SNES games chugged down?
absolutely. using a 16-bit enhanced version of a rapidly aging 8-bit design wasn't the wisest of choices.

>>11952413
GIVE ME FUCKING PROOF THAT ALL SEGA SAID WAS "We will LIKE TO include scaling but it was too expensive to include and would've required 2 chips which would've increasing the size on the system itself" AND NOT "This was supposed to have scaling but that got rejected in favor of Master System support because of Europe" MEANING THE GENESIS WAS NEVER GOING TO HAVE HARDWARE SCALING!!!!

SHOW ME!!!!

>>11952370
No you didn't retard.

>>11952370
>polygon
Get out of here you fucking lying queer.

>>11953396
Yes, I did.
>>11953405
Polygon is a trusted source.

>>11953440
LMAO

The Mega Drive was a rushed masterpiece, a luxury Famicom you could buy at a loss for pennies on the dollar

>>11953461
Tell me; Whats wrong with Polygon?
>>11953471
Thats not what that phase means.

>>11953562
Unprofessional access media hacks that care more about politics than videogames. In fact most of their writers hate video games and the people that play them.

>>11952370
>Porygon

What are you, the /VR/ Famicunt?

>>11947518 (OP)
Yes it only had double the palletes of the master system and often early Genesis games actually look less colourful in areas than well made master system games like in Phantasy Star 2.

>chip shortage
Computer memory prices increased sharply for a bit. What could have really saved them is to have more expansion pins.

In the end you have a console with twice as many colours and much faster sprites than an over $500 Amiga but Amiga has the copper while Genesis usually uses interupts to change the background colours. Consider this was still a time that people would still but an 8 bit system just to save $50 to $100. And the whole just add a bit more memory, it won't cost much is what screwed the Saturn.

>sprite scaling
I showed people my Atari Lynx and reactions ranged from I didn't noticed it to thats horrible, it looks so blocky. This was after the heyday of 16 bit so whatever.

>>11947584
What about dual master system style vdp like some arcades had. Maybe increase the bitplanes by a lot. I guess that would be like Amstrad GX4000, lot of colours but weak sprites and detail. Snes even has a mode that is almost like 4 nes layers.

>>11949224
The argument of but imagine if it had 256 colours. But plenty of VGA pc games have horrific colour choices or all the crappy looking gba and flash games.

>>11949805
Tough choice but if they are using a z80 anyway I'd bet people today would criticize them for wasting the z80 and they probably made the choice in 1987. Still the sms would have be relegated to bedroom console so backward compatibility is kind of useless.

PC engine did a lot of the stuff OP wanted, it just came down to marketing anyway.

>>11947518 (OP)
The sega cd delivered most of that. Sega should have cost reduced it and made it the standard instead of cd32 and Saturn.

>>11947518 (OP)
>You beat Sonic 1, 2 and 3 and Knuckles and you’re done with it
maybe if you're a fucking pleb who's bad at arcade games

>>11954819
The point is Sega could've had the scaling and extra colors and sprites built in to the Genesis if the Master System did as poorly in Europe as it did in North America.

Should I buy a Genesis Model 2 for $25
Plastic cover on the bottom is missing but idk if that matters at all

>>11947518 (OP)
>You beat Sonic 1, 2 and 3 and Knuckles and you’re done with it. While thats not the entire library (see Revenge of Shinobi, Streets of Rage 1, 2 and 3, Monster World 3 and 4, ect.) thats all people care about it.
Stop being autistic.

>>11947539
Even if the $90 figure is true, which you've not linked any evidence for, do you not thing retailers take a chunk?

>>11956120
>Should I buy a Genesis Model 2 for $25
Probably. However you should know that if you care about sound and or video quality not all Genesis/Megadrive consoles are the same and that especially goes for the Model 2.
It's an intricate business if you care about having the best Sega Genesis hardware. If you don't care like a normal person then it doesn't really matter.

>>11956110
Based on nothing. People couldn't even play SMS games on their genesis with out an adapter. The Z80 that gives the Genesis its backwards compatibility is pennies for the amount they purchased.

>>11956120
Are you getting the power adapter as well? It's a pretty good deal. Like the other poster said, there's a higher chance of the Model 2 having slightly worse audio. If that concerns you, you're going to have to do some additional research to tell them apart.

>>11956273
nah, console only. i pulled the trigger, it seemed like i wouldn't get a better deal since all the other "console only" listings in that price range were broken and for parts, and this one was tested working. power adapter, controller, and av cables seem like they'll cost around $10-15 each but maybe I'll find some better deals.

>>11956285
Get the small sega Six Button controller unless you can hold the 3 button before you buy it. You'll need the newer power adapter with the yellow tip for the polarity. And get cheap composite cable for the Genesis 2 unless you want component then get the expensive HDretrovision cable that you can buy adapters for other systems for.

>>11947929
>Has their retro standard def console stretched to shit on a modern widescreen TV
Why are people OK with this?

is there a summercart equivalent for genesis? as in cheaper than an everdrive but also better

>>11956303
It's not even necessary either, you can set your TV to display at 4:3. These people legitimately just don't notice something is wrong. Yeah there'll be some input lag still but most people don't keep CRTs around anymore so I get using the HD TV, but at least put the effort in to make the aspect ratio correct.

>>11956495
They need to make CRTs again.

>>11948517
>>The Super NES' CPU was picked to reuse dev tools from the NES, not backwards compatibility
If you read up on this it's really funny. The SNES devs just used their old NES devkit assembler because the devkits for the SNES was utter dogshit.

My favorite story is the ones about the guys who made Stunt Race FX. They built their own devkit out of RAM sticks and slaughtered Star Fox carts from which they pulled the SuperFX. Pretty rad dudes.

>>11952180
>because the VDP used in genesis is based on similar chips used in the sega system 16 arcade board.
Huh, that explains the pseudo-fantasy emulation that M2 did for Space Harriers 1 & 2. Kind of a bummer that those versions aren't emulatable outside of the Genesis Minis themselves.

>>11956651
It took a few years to get dedicated dev kits for the Super NES (1992).

Prier to that they used custom boards for the HP 6400, FMR computers with graphic cards designed for arcade development and for sound Sony NEWS computers (since thats where the SPC700 was originally designed for).

>>11952410
I think the other part was SlowRAM, correct? IIRC, that was a large reason why SMW had major slowdown in some areas.

>>11956814
Someone needs to port that emulator to PC and MiSTer, homebrew can go to town with it.

>>11956836
Exactly, we've already got the dumps. Now all we need is an emulator...

>>11956835
The SlowRAM was DRam and that was due to cost.

>>11956257
The z80 is not what is being discussed. We are talking about the VDP.

Also, what is with people thinking that backwards compatibility just requires the cpu. The cpu is only one part of the system. Other components matter such as the sound, video, and glue logic.

>>11956840
Makes sense. I'm sure mappers are expensive AF, and I doubt Nintendo wanted to be AS reliant on them as they were the previous gen.

>>11956839
Someone needs to port it and include it's support to modern emulators, that and update Kega Fusion to support the Sega Mark V spec.

>>11956848
I'm sure it can be HLE'd ala. Paprium. Since it's a fantasy console at that point, I doubt accuracy matters too much in this case.

>>11956851
The Sega Mark V can brought into reality, maybe with extra colors and more sprites since M2 didn't bother fixing that part of the Genesis.

>>11954238
>the /VR/ Famicunt?
Actually, it IS him! He's been on here a few times LMFAO.

>>11953471
>a luxury Famicom
I believe that honor truly goes to the PC Engine. Its CPU was quite literally made to be familiar to NES devs.

>>11956886
X68000 really, The PC Engine was seen as a next gen console.

>>11956963
I'm not sure the X68000 ever really made a mark on the home market. What I do know, however, is that it was often used by Nips as a devkit for their arcade boards.

>>11956495
I'm with you. I own a CRT, but I understand using a flatscreen if that's all you have. Not bothering to correct the aspect ratio irks me though.
>>11956636
We can only dream.

>>11956976
>I'm not sure the X68000 ever really made a mark on the home market.
made a slight dent when it came to gamers, musicians, computer programmers etc. but the x68k was super expensive. machine was sold for less than a decade and total number units is something in the realm of 1 million machines covering all models, and japan had a population of well over 122 million people or something. sharp sold enough of them to keep the platform viable for a few years but the world was moving to x86 in japan, specifically windows and ms-dos compatible machines.

>>11956963
>The PC Engine was seen as a next gen console.
that was the image hyped up in magazines, since they weren't exactly sold in big numbers in every country. there was nothing next gen about it. i liked it a lot but when i finally got to play with one i realized it was all hype. released too late and by then people were moving away from 6502 or z80 driven systems.

>>11957249
It had more colors then the NES (481 out of 512 compared to 25 out of 56), faster then the NES (7.16MHz compared to 1.79MHz), supported roms up to 2MB without bank switching mappers, had better sound then the base NES (see videos, they're the same song) and had larger sprites (32x64 compared to 8x16), it is next gen.

TurboGrafx-16 music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoCmpOK9Pk4

Base NES (as in 2A03 only) music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J16ft0O6Yok

>>11957279
I don't think that 2A03 example is a fair one, it can be pushed to its limit if a skilled composer/programmer did the job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mKJYnr_l2E

>>11957286
The point is to compare the same song between the 2 chips, but I won't leave you empty handed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UFqbhQgTLo

>>11957291
Damn, 1:12 goes absolutely hard!

What are these flashcarts called? They're obviously not using Everdrive boards right? Is there some kind of open-source flashcart design they're using?

>>11948078
>PS1 was advertised as a next gen 3D console, but shipped with only a dpad

>>11957328
To be fair, it was an early 5th gen console in Japan. The best they had previously was the 3DO.

>>11947518 (OP)
>got replaced with Master System support because of Pal markets.
I see this being brought up on /vr/ all the time but nobody has yet to give a single source for this claim.
the console was originally developed as mark 5, as an extension of the mark 4 (master system), same way as it extended the Mark III, which extended the SG-1000 II (mark 2), etc etc. So pretty sure it was a master system + extras, not a new console + master system compatibility.

>Needed 2 YM2612 chips
retarded and expensive

>Needed to use a 16MHz 68020 so games can be up to 4GB in size
retarded and expensive

>helping the Sega CD
you'd need interrupts on the CD and cartridge ports to help any of the expansions.

>Needed 256 sprites and 64 sprites per scanline
it already outdid any system including SNES for pure sprite grunt.

>Built in Master System support limited the background layers
>61 out of 512 colors on screen was strictly because of Master System support,
source: my ass

>the color pallet would've been 481 out of 32,768 colors
no, it would've taken way too much die space.

>4 players out of the box, not 2
barely few games could use that

>256KB of main ram, 128KB of video ram and 128KB of sound ram.
way way way too expensive.
128k video ram would've been cool, it was an option the system supported, but got dropped for price reasons.

>It’s incredible just how barebones it is in hardware.
not really, no. if you master raster interrupts you can do mind boggling effects on it. Look at Batman & Robin or Vectorman.

>>11947748
$90 in 1988 dollars.
That's like $250 today for production, and the $250 launch price in 1988 is equivalent to $680 today.

>>11949805
>Sega even said that they didn't have room for both sprite and background sprite scaling/rotation and Master System support and only picked Master System support because of Pal markets.

source?

>>11952370
>I just posted the source and it was brought up here before.

your source does not back up your claims. all it says is 1. sprite scaling did not fit the die and 2. backwards compatibility was their #1 priority above everything else.

So when you say "they removed scaling to add master system compatibility for PAL markets", you are either lying or retarded.

>>11957348
Yeah, I'd take that with a grain of salt. I think the real reason was the Genesis already had an onboard Z80 and SN76489, so modifying the Genesis' VDP slightly for SMS compatibility was a no-brainer.

>>11947553
>Could the Genesis have been saved?
The real question people should be asking is should the Genesis have been killed off earlier? The thousands of unsold 32Xs aren't doing the Genesis any favors.

>>11957341
>The console was originally developed as Mark 5.
The name of Mark 5 indicated Sega's 5th console not anything Master System related, the name was changed to Mega Drive because of legal issues with Tatsunoko (Speed Racer's car) (Zillion bombed (the team behind it got laid off and founded Production I.G. as a result) and the 2 companies were on shaky grounds with each other) and by the time of the Genesis Mini 2's release those issues were ironed out.

>Sound
The YM2612 was only $1 a chip, not expensive by any means.

>CPU
The 68000 was only $15 bucks in 1984, while in 1988 A 16MHz 68020 was only $10 a chip when a 8MHz (really 7.68MHz) was even cheaper.

>CD
Did the TurboGrafx-16 have any interrupts for it's CD add-on?

>Sprites
The Genesis only had 80 sprites and 20 per scan line, the Super NES meanwhile had 128 sprites and 32 per scan line, Super NES wins this battle.

>Color pallet.
The Genesis already supports that many colors and then some but Master System supports took up a large amout of the die space, removing it will bump up the color count, not to 266,144 with no color limits (because it needs external CRam for that) but 481 out of 32,768 colors is something the VDP can do with just internal CRam (more of it).

>4 players out of the box, not 2
It's for future proofing.

>Ram
We're talking about kilobytes, not megabytes.

>>11957351
Backwards compatibility was their #1 priority above everything else because of Europe.

Because otherwise we would've got background and sprite scaling and rotation.

>>11957360
No, it was because it's been a priority since the SMS before it, and the Mark III before that. Why else can a SMS play SG-1000 games?

>>11957361
No, it wasn't, SG-1000 support on the Mark 3 was a after thought as if it wasn't the colors wouldn't be so jacked up.

>>11957362
And? Even the MSX standard had wildly different colors depending on the revision. When upgrading VDPs, of course there's going to be visual differences when trying to play games from a previous revision.

>>11957362
Case in point.

>>11957364
If you're going to bring up a random edge-case, I'm going to bring up a counter edge-case involving Pitfall 2. That had a revision that went out of its way to fix the colors for SMS hardware.
https://www.smspower.org/forums/20448-ACuriosityRegardingSG1000ColorsOnTheMasterSystemAndMarkIII

>>11947865
>Seriously, who is making all this bot threads?
Some faggot from /co/.

>>11956110
The Master System doing well in Europe was a coincidence. Yuros got the NES far later than everyone else in the world, and they had Mattel distribute it. It was basically a reverse of what happened to the Master System in the US, where Tonka (another toy manufacturer) had no idea what the fuck they were doing

>>11957279
> but the nes
still doesn't make pc engine "next gen" - whatever that means, that's the same generation as nes, master system etc. but with enhancements
>supported roms up to 2MB without bank switching mappers
so what? it's a 6502 with ram paging - an 8-bit cpu - also nothing "next gen" about it. i love the pc engine but i'm not going to sit here and pretend it was some technological marvel when it fucking wasn't.

>>11957469
>Still doesn't make pc engine "next gen"
Thats like saying the Wii isn't next gen because it was mostly a overclocked GameCube with a ARM9 chip running it's OS, The TurboGrafix-16 was more of a next gen system then the Wii was because the TurboGrafix-16 was a actual jump in performance while the Wii was because of Japan's lost decade, HD not being main stream at the time and Nintendo not having the money to jump to HD back then.

The TurboGrafix-16's 2MB bus is native, the Genesis wasn't a technological marvel either.
>>11957453
It wasn't, it's success in Europe is why the Genesis was gypped.

>>11957453
In Europe Mattel only distributed the NES in Britain and Italy. Most countries had their own distributors

This isn't an isolated case, pre 5th gen nothing was centralized and each country had its own releases and publishers. In the case of the NES it's the same thing for games, some games were only released in 1 or 2 countries, etc "PAL" game listing don't correspond to anything and trying to group "Europe" as one thing like everyone does would be like grouping the US and Japan as one "NTSC" region

From my experience most times when people try to apply generalization regarding "Europe", they're actually talking about Britain and assume it was the same everywhere else (the only exception being anything regarding anime)

>Yuros got the NES far later than everyone else in the world

Except from eastern Europe, everyone had it by the last quarter of 1987 (some did earlier, in 86). It's not that far removed from the US nation wide launch which was 86.

In my country the Master System performed really well but the NES performed better. For instance all parents called consoles "Nintendos" and were still doing it during the 5th gen, just like in the US.

>>11957358
> 481 out of 32,768
There are not enough bits in the name tables to make use of that many colors. 181 (4+4+4) is the practical limit.

>>11957889
> actual jump in performance
there wasn't. it was using a 6502 cpu

>The TurboGrafix-16's 2MB bus is native,
native? it's a feature that was added into their custom 6502. as anons have already mentioned, 6502 (and z80) were dead ends and everyone was moving to m68k.

> the Genesis wasn't a technological marvel either.
it used a 16/32bit cpu and made pc engine look like an embarrassing joke in every single way imaginable. stop embarrassing yourself. you're just a sad fool that knows nothing about pc engine or megadrive.

>>11958090
>made pc engine look like an embarrassing joke in every single way imaginable.
Yeah… right

>>11958105
>Yeah… right
yes. right. there's no if or buts or screenshots from shit games that is going to rewind time and make the megadrive worse than the pc engine. it's not possible. m68k 16/32-bit with DMA > 8-bit 6502 with hacks/extensions.

>>11958128
I never said it’s worse, but they are much closer in power than you’re giving them credit for. Let’s see the Genesis make a 32 x 64 sprite, for example.

>>11958148
>but they are much closer in power
they're not on the same plane of existence
> Let’s see the Genesis make a 32 x 64 sprite, for example
wow that's such a technical challenge. multiple sprites. damn. so hard. is there an adult/mental health nurse in the room i can speak to that knows how computer hardware works? you're just a drooling retard. it's like you've got all your info about how these things work from youtubers that barely understood the wikipedia pages they were reciting verbatim.

>>11958078
Yes, there is, if you use the external CRam bus or remove the Master System die part of the VDP.
>>11958090
The Genesis color pallet says otherwise.

>>11958557
The sega genesis uses 16 bits (1 word), to define all the attributes for a single tile in the tile map. There is only 2 bits available for palette. As such there is no way to specify more than 4 palettes for a single plane.

>>11958603
Die scans say otherwise.

>>11958646
God you are so dumb.

The tile map is not an implementation detail. The tile map is the software facing interface which is used to define what tile is drawn in what cell. One word is used for each entry in the tile map. You cannot add any more bits. The genesis uses, 11 bits for the tile index, 2 bits for palette, 2 bits for flipping, and 1 bit for priority. There are no more bits available, to add more palette bits would require eating into something else.

>>11958703
No, you are.
That is not the case, we have the die shots of the VDP chip, the color pallet can support 262,144 colors at max but because of how much the Master System's video hardware being built into the VDP it can only do 481 colors out of 32,768, and because of the lack of CRam die to how much die space Master System support took up it only has enough CRam to do 61 colors out of 512.

Because of that and that the external CRam bus can take up 32KB (which went unused) the Genesis can do alot more then 181 colors out of 4096.

>>11958728
Where does this 32kb external color bus nonsense come from. The external color bus is not that kind of bus. Its just 8? bits that defines the digital pixel value being drawn. It cannot represent any additional palette entries. (There has been some suggestion it can support 128 colors, but evidence is thin).

> 262,144 colors
Also, I would love to know how exactly your geriatric brain thinks that 262,144 colors could be in any way actually used. Like how do you select these colors. Its meaningless to say a machine supports 262,144 colors if there is no interface software can use to select them.

>>11958105
That's more the case of a lazy porting job from Westone, there are tons of Genesis games that look better than Mega Bomberman

>>11958757
The CRam bus is 8-Bits, meaning it can do 32KB of ram without bank switching.

The external CRam bus is that kind of bus, it's a ram bus.

Mega drive had some fun gaems and was affordable. :3c

>>11957962
Fair, I suppose famiclones technically count as a NES.

>>11958703
>>11958757
Where the hell are you getting your bits from? The CPU has bits, not the VDP.

>>11958728
>>11958646
> dumbest fucking retard alive
> that knows nothing about pc engine
> now thinks she's an expert on a megadrive
my fucking sides. in orbit.

>>11959971
>The CPU has bits, not the VDP.
lol what
>>>11958728
> because some rambling nonsense about master system we can just add fantasy numbers and magical colours just arrive
this is the absolute dumbest thread i have ever fucking read since that pedophile was here ranting about the neogeo. you're just a sad and pathetic clown. it's even more amazing how you tried to derail a thread about the megadrive to ramble on about the highly inferior pc engine and end up getting slapped around like some mouthy whore. just embarrassing.

>>11960161
>lol what
Bus bits aren't the same as CPU bits.

>>11960161
Bus bits aren't the same as CPU bits. (Sorry for the previous post, I did a bit of unrelated shitposting on /emugen/)

>>11960184
Also, I apologize for replying to someone who already disagrees with famicunt. Reading a bit more, I notice he tends to spell palette as "pallet."

>>11947518 (OP)
probably a lil

I rushed your mother too though

(with my paynus)

>>11960161
Please shut up, you don't know what you're talking about.
>>11960184
Yes, they are.

>>11960382
Not really, CPU bits are the size of the registers and ALU. VDPs/PPUs don't have "bits" in the traditional sense, rather bus width and color depth. If you take color-depth into consideration, that would make the Genesis a 9-bit console. However, this doesn't make sense in the grander scheme of things when SEGA's marketing relied on how powerful the M68K was. (Which it truly was.)

>>11960401
In fact, both the Genesis and TG-16 have the same amount of color depth (9-bit). The only difference is that the Genesis limits its colors for more parallax scrolling while the TG-16 pulls off more colors on screen at the cost of losing background layers. (As a result, sprites had to fake parallax scrolling.)

>>11960401
By 1988 the 68000 was a laughing stock, the 65816 was able to be twice as officiant with half the clock speed and cycles and the 68020 had much more bang for your buck that didn't cost that much more then the 68000 itself.

Intel CPU always cost alot but Motorola had affordable CPUs post 1984.

>>11960417
>By 1988 the 68000 was a laughing stock
No? SNK managed to put out NeoGeo cabinets well into the early 00s.

>>11960419
The Neo Geo was a mess of architecture, just using a 16MHz 68020 would've fixed it (proper 32-Bit bus, meaning no bank switching and proper 4GB of data without bank switching), adding in title map background support (4 layers) with proper scrolling (not stacked sprites), improved scaling with rotation upgrading the YM2610 to a YM2610B (2 extra FM channels) and a YM2151 to go alongside with the YM2610B would just be gravy.

>>11960431
That's a weak argument when even the CPS1 and 2 had a M68K.

>>11960435
Again shot architecture because the 68000 held it back.

The Konami GX board is the ideal board because it used a 68020 for that 4GB size bus without bank switching a ungodly amount of 64KB banks within a 16MB address bus.

>>11960417
>the 65816 was able to be twice as officiant with half the clock speed

The 65816 was a 8-bit cpu expanded to use 16-bit values. It had maybe two registers to use and an accumulator. It may have been twice as efficient per clock speed, but it had to waste dozens of cycles on memory access after every operand so ultimately it was a ton slower than the 68000, which had 16 registers. It could do 4-8 operations while the 65816 was busy spending time writing the result of 1 operation to memory.

SNES could barely run Super Mario World while Megadrive could run Doom or wireframe vector graphics in software.

>>11960578
Only on paper, in performance a 3.58MHz 65816 is identical to a 7.16MHz 68000.

So yes, The Genesis is faster, but just barely, also Super Mario World was a LoRom game, meaning the game is only running at 2.68MHz which translates to a 5.36MHz 68000, of course at that speed the Genesis will have a speed advantage (or half of why Blast Processing exists, the other half is how ram was handled).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_jP73Ly7A

>>11960431
>meaning no bank switching and proper 4GB of data without bank switching

The bank switching was necessary for the video hardware which was reading ROMs directly without any intervention of the CPU. They would've needed to increase the address bits of the video chips, not the 68000.

>adding in title map background support (4 layers)
would've been prohibitively expensive. We are talking Saturn levels of video hardware now, for a 1990 machine.

>>11960590
The Genesis was strictly a CPU bus for it's carts, plus the Neo Geo was a arcade board first and a home console second, it can cut it's profits to be future proofed.

In terms of affordable home consoles only the NES had separate CPU and PPU busses.

>>11960582
>Only on paper, in performance a 3.58MHz 65816 is identical to a 7.16MHz 68000.

It can do one operation at about the same speed yes but the lack of registers means it has to fetch memory 4-8x as often, each read taking dozens of cycles. The 68000 had more registers so it can do more arithmetic before dropping back to do memory read/writes. You can do a matrix multiplication on it without doing intermediate memory read/writes, the same thing on the SNES would be 20x slower due to needing to do memory read/writes per every step.

This is what makes the 68000 faster, not the clockspeed or the efficiency. It can work with more numbers at the same time, which allows it to do more complex operations faster.

>>11960598
>The Genesis was strictly a CPU bus for it's carts,

Yes, but the neogeo was not, it had the VIDEO HARDWARE directly being able to read the ROM data. Genesis video hardware could only draw anything from VRAM, and stuff had to be copied into it first. Neogeo video hardware could draw anything from nearly the entire cart without needing to copy data to memory. In fact the neo geo had bugger all memory precisely because it didn't need any, it was using the cartridge as memory.

>>11960601
The problem was that during those cycles the 68000 does those things slower then the 65816.

>>11960607
Neo Geo was also a arcade board so it can afforded to have separate CPU and video rom busses.

>>11957358
>The name of Mark 5 indicated Sega's 5th console not anything Master System related

They literally had a console named Mark III out there, which was upgraded into Mark IV and sold as the Master System. Megadrive was then an upgrade of that. The article you keep linking to literally says that their first priority was backwards compatibility, and then any new features.

Did you get banned from Sega-16 forums or what? This is the stupidest sega what-if thread I've read on /vr/ ever.

>>11957360
>Backwards compatibility was their #1 priority above everything else because of Europe.

Sega never gave a single shit about any market other than Japan, and Europe did not even have a proper continent wide office until much later. Shit half the continent was still behind the iron curtain when the Megadrive was made.

They didn't give any fucks about how well the Master System sold in Europe.

>>11958148
Genesis has sprite tables that allow it to chain 16x16 (or was it 8x8 I forgot) tiles together and draw it as one sprite. Streets of Rage 2 maxed this out with many animation frames using the maximum size tables. Pretty sure you had more than 32x64 sprites there this way.

and then beyond that you can do sprite multiplexing.

>>11960615
That was Sega's X console, not named by upgrades, plus the "First priority was backwards compatibility" was because of Europe.

Reall it should say "First priority was backwards compatibility because of Europe".

By your logic the Sega CD would've been called the Sega Mark VI and the Saturn the Mark VIII.
>>11960618
Sega let America go to town on leadership, if Sega only cared about Japan Master System support would've been non existence in the Genesis and Alex Kidd would've still be Sega's mascot as Sonic was designed for the US market (to the point that he was named after a fast food chain that served chili dogs (Japan wanted to call him Mr. Needlemouse), which is why chili dogs are Sonic's favorite food).

Sega did care about how many Master Systems were sold in Europe, it's the soul reason why the Genesis even has Master System support to begin with.

Sega is not Nintendo, as Nintendo ONLY care about the Japanese market.

>>11960615
That was Sega's X console, not named by upgrades, plus the "First priority was backwards compatibility" was because of Europe.

Reall it should say "First priority was backwards compatibility because of Europe".

By your logic the Sega CD would've been called the Sega Mark VI and the Saturn the Mark VIII.
>>11960618
Sega let America go to town on leadership, if Sega only cared about Japan Master System support would've been non existence in the Genesis and Alex Kidd would've still be Sega's mascot as Sonic was designed for the US market (to the point that he was named after a fast food chain that served chili dogs (Japan wanted to call him Mr. Needlemouse), which is why chili dogs are Sonic's favorite food).

Sega did care about how many Master Systems were sold in Europe, it's the soul reason why the Genesis even has Master System support to begin with.

Sega is not Nintendo, as Nintendo ONLY cared about the Japanese market.

>>11958728
>but because of how much the Master System's video hardware being built into the VDP it can only do 481 colors out of 32,768

Please point out on the die shot, which part of the VDP is responsible for the master system compatibility.

>>11958757
>(There has been some suggestion it can support 128 colors, but evidence is thin)

I think that comes from the Sega C2 arcade system, which used a separate color encoder hooked up to the VDP external color bus.
Basically the VDP has 64 colors, each 9 bit in size, plus shadow/highlight. The external color bus outputs which palette entry is being displayed on the current pixel. That is, it only outputs something like, current pixel is using palette 2, entry 12. It does not output what color that entry corresponds to.
The C2 had a separate color encoder chip which was basically a large external palette, something like 32 palettes, each at 15bit in size. It reads the VDP external color bus to find out which palette entry to display, and displays it from its own 15-bit entry.

So all it does is bump up the 9-bit color depth to 15-bit. In effect you now have 64 colors out of 32768 total instead of 512. This is not the VDP boosting the color count however, it's just an external device substituting the VDPs internal colors (and bypassing the complete analog output of the VDP). As for the extra palette entries, they can be used via bankswitching, controlled by a whole other CPU (a game specific FPGA).

>>11958784
It may be a 8-bit bus, but out of that 4-bit is the palette entry (16 colors), 2 bit is the palette index (four palettes), and 2 bit is shadow/highlight. You are still limited to the amount of colors the Genesis does, you can just hook up an external color encoder to use higher bit depth colors.

>>11960401
>Not really, CPU bits are the size of the registers and ALU.

CPU bits is just whatever gimmick marketing number companies will use. Neogeo was 24bit (16 bit 68000, + 8 bit z80), 68000 was 32bit because of the external address or something else I forgot, Japan marketed Saturn as 64bit (two SH2s, 32 + 32 bit), when it came out some magazines called the Dreamcast 128bit and the PS2 256bit, etc etc etc.

It's all horse shit we can argue about for forever. If it's the register size that determines the bitness then any x86 chip supporting AVX512 is a 512-bit cpu.

>>11947572
It’s already happening: >>11960709

>>11960636
>That was Sega's X console, not named by upgrades

It was 5th in the family of the sg-1000. hence mark V. like how Mark III was 3rd in the same family, Master System was labeled mark 4 on the board and was 3th in the same family etc.

Note how they never had a Mark 6, 7, 8 despite having plenty of later consoles too. Because their other consoles were completely different families, not a Megadrive +1.

>plus the "First priority was backwards compatibility" was because of Europe.
source: your ass.

>By your logic the Sega CD would've been called the Sega Mark VI and the Saturn the Mark VIII.
Saturn was not "mark #" because it was an entirely new machine with zero compatibility, not SG-1000 version X.
Sega CD and 32x were expansions, not new consoles.

Closest thing there was to another revision was the Game Gear and that was just master system + more colors + smaller screen.

>>11960719
The C2 arcade board can do 256 colors out of 32,768, more then 64 out of 32,768, plus the CRam bus can do ram by itself.
>>11960736
>"First priority was backwards compatibility was because of Europe".
That really is the case.

By you're logic Saturn is Mark VIII, don't deny it, this isn't "We like to have scaling but having backwards compatibility for a system that only did well in Europe matters more", this is "We like to have scaling but Europe will be pissed at us if we don't include backwards compatibility".

Did the Genesis actually have any killer apps? Im not a huge fan of the sonic games and everything else on the console just seems like platformers and arcade ports
SNES has classics that hold up even today
Genesis just seems like an edgy SNES

>>11960759
>The C2 arcade board can do 256 colors out of 32,768, more then 64 out of 32,768
I just explained how it works you nimrod. It's a normal VDP but uses two chips to externally process the palette, bumping up its color depth, and bankswitch the palettes altogether. But you are still limited to 16 colors per palette and you have an extra chip that can switch your colors mid raster (never mind that you can do this on the Megadrive too in software). So the only real change is the larger color depth.

>plus the CRam bus can do ram by itself.
This sentence makes no fucking sense.

>That really is the case.
You have not provided a single source for this claim.

>By you're logic Saturn is Mark VIII, don't deny it
Saturn was not the same family as SG-1000 but a completely new architecture from the ground up, so it would not have been Mark VIII even if they still used that code name.

>>11960789
I’ve been slowly uncovering the MD library, and there are a lot of good shooters like Ranger X and Alien Soldier. Also a lot of good RPGs like Phantasy Star and Shining in the Darkness. For SRPGs, there’s Langisser and Shining Force. There’s a lot of cool stuff beyond Sonic, and there are other good platformers too.

>>11960789
Mortal Kombat with blood code was a huge killer app
Aladdin as well
Streets of Rage 2 was their #2 game in 1992 after Sonic
Thunder Force IV
Toejam & Earl
Ecco
Eternal Champions was marketed as such, and it had top notch presentation and shitloads of extra features, it only lacked because it wasn't SF2
Earthworm Jim
Road Rash 1-3

>SNES has classics that hold up even today
And how many of those were platformers?

>>11960789
>Did the Genesis actually have any killer apps?
Yes.
https://vsrecommendedgames.miraheze.org/wiki/Mega_Drive
>>11960794
>This sentence makes no fucking sense.
it does make sense.

>Saturn was not the same family as SG-1000
To Sega, it was in the same family, it's like saying the Wii isn't in the same family as the NES because the Wii uses different architecture then the NES.

>>11960806
>And how many of those were platformers?
Link to the past
Chrono Trigger
Super Mario kart
Street fighter 2
Star Fox
Super Mario RPG
Just a lot of really good games

>>11960719
The reason why I said 128 colors might be possible is that I have seen one source suggesting that the external pixel bus can convey sprite/background.

>>11947535
Do (you)?

>>11960872
>The reason why I said 128 colors might be possible is that I have seen one source suggesting that the external pixel bus can convey sprite/background.

Bitch if you feed the VDP into extra hardware you can get 32768 colors bitmapped display. That won't make the VDP better.

>I have seen one source suggesting that the external pixel bus can convey sprite/background.
There's some conflict based on whether the last 2 bits of the pixel bus is 2 bits shadow/highlight or 1 bit s/h + 1 bit sprite/background. But that won't help you because you are still using an FPGA controlling an external palette encoder to bankswitch into extra palettes.

>>11957325
They are everdrive clones, I made the mistake of cloning an SD card that had offical firmware on it and it was bricked when it was detected. The only way I fixed it was getting a second aliexpress knock-off and copying the ROM chip contents to the old one.

>>11960647
They didn't even begin to discuss this on that idiot's Polygon article he keeps spamming so he has nothing even close to a source for his claims.

>>11959971
>The CPU has bits, not the VDP.
lmao
>>11960417
>65816 was able to be twice as officiant with half the clock speed
that never happened.
>>11960813
> nooo! you don't understand! my lies and schizo fantasies are real!

all it took was one anon to shit on the pc engine and you've had the most insane mental breakdown i've seen here in ages. you're nothing more than a sad and pathetic clown that's run out of lies after anons keep shitting on you.

also you dropped this:

>>11947518 (OP)
Didn't they put a version of the 68000 processor in it, but it was so expensive they had to sell the consoles at a loss (thus creating the software sales model for gaming).

This thing came out in 1989 also, bear that in mind. The SNES came out 2 years later and despite the fancy mode 7 effects had a processor that was nominally half the speed. This was also at a time of very rapid advancement in IC tech and size. Load up games like Castelvania Bloodlines, Thunderforce IV and Streets Of Rage 2 and tell me this thing is barebones. It was the SNES that compensated for dogshit hardware with mode 7, truthfully used sometimes for great games and experiences not possible before but otherwise a gimmick. It was also held back by it's processor and although it had an excellent color palette capable of making beautiful background and smooth gradients that made it look it had a better resolution than it did, the Genesis was somehow still capable of higher resolution modes.

>>11961376
>>Didn't they put a version of the 68000 processor in it, but it was so expensive they had to sell the consoles at a loss (thus creating the software sales model for gaming).
the 68000 was only a few dollars per chip at that point, was aging and already superseded by the 68020 released in 1984, 68030 came out in 1987 or so. i doubt they were ever sold at a loss considering the tech inside them was already a few years old (the 68000 from 1979, z80 from 1976).
>excellent color palette capable of making beautiful background and smooth gradients that made it look it had a better resolution than it did
you can do the same thing with the megadrive by reprogramming the vdp's colour ram on the fly at whatever part of the screen you like. just takes a little more effort.

>>11961338
>65816...
Yes, it did happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_jP73Ly7A
>>11961376
The 68000 was being sold for $15 dollars in 1984 and by 1988 it was less then $1.

Sony was the one who created the model of selling consoles at a loss.

>>11961421
> did happen
> links to video that's using C language and emulators
> proves nothing
you really are just getting everything you know from abject failures on social media, aren't you, clown?

>>11961438
You're the clown in this thread, the video was explaining it's stuff in assembly.

>>11961451
still changes nothing. your lies are just hilariously bad, clown. you know nothing about everything. you know nothing about the pc engine, you know nothing about the megadrive and you know nothing about the snes. you're one of the dumbest fucking retards i've ever seen on this board. most comical part is how you believe your own lies. you need to kill yourself as soon as possible and stop bothering people on the internet with your crippling mental illness. you're a joke.

>>11961458
Nothing you say is true.

>>11961463
> nothing you say is true
> says the schizo fucking retard floods 4chan with schizo lies for days on end
kill yourself, you sad loser clown.

>68000 was a laughing stock
>the 65816 was able to be twice as officiant
>officiant

>>11961467
>>11961475
Same poster derailing the thread.

>>11947539
Retard. It didn't even cost $100 to buy.

>>11961548
They were making a $160 dollar profit per every unit sold.

>>11961561
Not how profit works.

>>11961561
Didn't it sell for 200 or less? Sounds like bullshit to me, if they were waking 400% profit then they could have released the same unit years sooner at 0% profit and blown everyone away. I though that consoles always had slim margins because gaming is always at the cutting edge of consumer hardware tech to deliver the newest and most modern experience.

>>11947518 (OP)
This is a secret hate fag thread by that autistic tendie again isnt it.

The Genesis has the best library. The snes has maybe 4 good games and that's it unless you like children's games.

>>11961636
The SNES has lots of good games but the Genesis has more. The SNES library has some good exclusives too, not just JRPG's but it's library really is a little disappointing.

>>11961634
Yes, it does, clown.
>>11961635
All consoles were marked up back then, it wasn't until the PS1 where consoles were sold at a loss.

And yes the Genesis did get price drops but we're talking about it's Japanese launch, not it's US launch where they dropped the price to $190 dollars and bundled it with Altered Beast.

>>11961636
Not the case with the Super NES.
https://vsrecommendedgames.miraheze.org/wiki/SNES

>>11961640
Sounds like bullshit. This whole thread makes me feel like I'm being gas lit.

>>11961637
>The SNES has lots of good games

Chrono trigger
Final fantasy 6
Turtles in time
Star fox

There anon. That's it.
Everything else is either games designed for children such as mario or donkey kong OR its downgraded garbage like final fight.
Everything else from there is forgettable because it's just not very good

>>11961650
Holy seethe

>>11961648
It's not.
>>11961650
About that...
https://vsrecommendedgames.miraheze.org/wiki/SNES

Mario and Donkey Kong are for all ages.

>>11961654
Seethe at what? Seriously what's the snes actually got that's that great?

Undercover cops - released in Japan only. Is censored, missing content and plays terribly.
Rushing beat 123 - such bad games their not even a trilogy outside of japan and all 3 were not that great.
Final Fight - no guy, was censored and ran badly, poison removed for gay guy in a bra.
Final fight 2 - zzzzzzzz
Final fight 3 - it's ok but it's just boring.
Aladdin- censored and wasn't even allowed a sword.

Most other stuff was ports that was either better on the Genesis or that just followed suit with the previous stuff mentioned.

The snes does have some brilliant games with Tnmt tit being an improved port of the arcade game and chrono trigger/ff6 with it's more adult themes and story

>>11961667
My favorites are Cybernator, Metal Warriors, the first two Front Missions, Lufia II, the first two SMTs, Ihatovo Monogatari, F Zero, X1 and 2, the Goemon games, Magical Pop’n, and Space Megaforce. I’ve never even heard or played of any of what you’re talking about.

>>11961656
Keep posting that list kid. Do you believe everything IGN or kotaku writes too?

Children of all ages. Do you mean adult men obsessed with children's games

>>11961680
>I’ve never even heard or played of any of what you’re talking about.

Exactly. That's part of the point.
I can guarantee you've never heard of Battle Masters Ultimate Warriors either.

It's a console with a handful of good games, kids games because it was a censored console marketed at kids, A huge amount of mid and the rest are forgettable.

>>11961695
They're not children's games, get that through your thick skull you clown.

>>11961695
>Exactly. That's part of the point.
I can guarantee you've never heard of Battle Masters Ultimate Warriors either.
You’re telling me there’s even more good games on the console I’m unaware of? Thanks for the heads up

>>11961702
They were specifically aimed for that market anon. Why do you think there so easy to do??
Mario is basically hold right to win. Even today the latest bing bing wo ho mario game does this and even gives you a tutorial on holding right.
DK was the same once it changed from dodging barrels.

>>11961710
No, they were not.

>>11961650
>Gradius III
>UN Squadron
Other than that it has JRPGs and Mario stuff. Also Star Fox sucks and the framerate is too low. I think the Genesis is much better than the SNES for the record though.

>>11961640
>Yes, it does, clown.
Can you just go the fuck away? Nobody needs a fucking retard that thinks they know how everything works from corporate profit to how custom chips work with zero sources to back up a single claim.
You are a miserable piece of shit.

Some of you autistic retards are just the worst.

>>11961451
>>11961421
That video is horse shit. 68000 could run that code almost entirely without memory access, making it 20x faster than both the other two chips.

>>11962583
>ANALog
Overpriced hunk of junk. That's why I only buy original consoles and HDMI converters.

>>11962583
>nice guy redditor marblefag being snippy
Whoa. What happened? Did somebody say they never received their Doordash order this afternoon?

>>11962812
I'm not marblefag. I saved that pic of his for when he claims "lies" he's too poor for real hardware.

>>11961635
>Didn't it sell for 200 or less?
As a matter of fact, yes. This Usenet post from a couple days after the US Genesis launch proves it.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.video/c/LPOJWsW7j3Q/m/Bi37iTP7mWUJ

>>11961667
I hear the MD version of Final Fight is shaping up to be a pretty good port. Is the SEGA CD version still good enough?

>>11962836
I didn't know Last Battle and Thunder Force II were launch titles.

>>11961680
I haven't played nearly as many SNES games as Genesis ones, but I have to say Plok is my favorite since it's far more challenging than SMW.

>>11961710
>Mario is basically hold right to win.
You wouldn't make it alive in SMB2J's C-4.

>>11962797
Well yeah, the dude tested his benchmark using Fusion. That emu has long since been superseded by BlastEm, Ares, and GPGX.

>>11961187
Are they able to handle larger-sized games like Earthion and Demons of Asteborg? If so, I might consider getting one of those instead of the official ones sold by Krikzz.

>>11961640
>>11961501
>>68000 was a laughing stock
>>the 65816 was able to be twice as officiant
>>officiant
aaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha

>>11962836
>keeps posting links random links like anons aren't going to read them
>usenet is now a source of credible information
you're the biggest loser i've seen on this board in ages. an absolute fucking clown. and a lying clown that can't even get basic information right.

>>11963030
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're replying to the wrong guy dude.

>>11962907
> using emulators
> at all
> instead of just reading the spec sheets
i forget at times that most youtubers didn't even pass yr4 at school. this abject failure that keeps having a severe mental breakdown, because anons shit on pc engine, is just grabbing random links he can find off the internet and praying that nobody puts more that 2 seconds of effort into looking into it. this anon is the biggest loser i have ever seen.

>>11963038
Tell me about it, this anon sums up my feelings perfectly. >>11961648

>>11963035
> inspect element.. edit..
> NOT ME!
> honk honk
such a sad and embarrassing clown. we all know it's you, you sad and pathetic loser.

>>11947518 (OP)
See the japanese release destroying the system reputation in that region.

>>11963042
> things that never happened
awesome story.

>>11963041
Just to prove I'm not him, here's Issue 2 of GamePro magazine listing the launch price of the Genesis at "just under $200."
https://archive.org/details/game-pro-issue-2-july-august-1989-hiresscans/GamePro%20-%20Issue%202%20July%20August%201989%20%28Compressed%29/page/10/mode/2up
Hopefully this clears things up.

>>11963048
>>11963042
Sega didn't have any reputation whatsoever on the console market in Japan, they were in the "also exists" category, with the Famicom having 95% of the market. In the early 90s they became known as the reverse weeb machine because of how american they tried being (NEC was the animu otaku machine iirc).

They only ever got popular in Japan with the Saturn and that was only thanks to Virtua Fighter.

>>11962797
Debunked as the video proved.
>>11962809
Analogue isn't junk, you're just pissed that the Mega SG doesn't have 32X support built in.
>>11962836
>>11963064
Yes, when it was released in the US with Altered Beast as it's pack in at $189 dollars.

But we're talking about it's Japanese launch.
>>11963071
>They only ever got popular in Japan with the Saturn and that was only thanks to Virtua Fighter.
And Sakura Wars.
And the Capcom ports.

>>11962583
>buys overpriced modern garbage
>doesn't even open the boxes
What is this form of mental illness?

>>11962583
How are they going to output anything when they're sealed in their boxes, retard? This confirms what I thought about you
You don't play or use anything anything. You just hoard e-waste

>>11964004
Analogue isn't garbage.

>>11964006
>>11964180
Analogue also isn't e-waste.

>>11963294
>And Sakura Wars.
VF2 alone sold more than all Sakura Wars games on Saturn combined.

>And the Capcom ports.
VF2 alone sold more than SF Alpha 1-2, Night Warriors (best selling capcom game btw), Vampire Savior X-Men vs SF and Marvel vs SF combined. If you add in Resident Evil, then you are around the level of VF2, but that's not counting VF1, Fighters Megamix, Fighting Vipers (any of those sold better than Night Warriors), VF Kids, and VF Remix.

The rest of the Capcom games didn't even get into the top 100 best selling games, none of them reached even 106k in sales.

Saturn was a VF machine. Deal with it.

>>11949805
>>11947841
>costed
OP is a confirmed retard. Opinions disregarded.

>>11964385
No, you're the retard in this thread.

>>11963030
>>11963041
Logfag, stay in your own fucking lane.

>>11963294
>But we're talking about it's Japanese launch.
Because this is Japan. Just shut the fuck up you braindead retard.

>>11964004
>What is this form of mental illness?
It's called Marblefag. Too poor "retarded" for real hardware. Rich enough for AnalLogs still sealed in their boxes.

>>11961636
these days i really do boot up the genesis emulator more often but it might be because i prefer action/arcade games

>>11965258
Same here, although I'm trying my best to diversify my tastes lately.

>>11964382
Gee, that image sure is familiar.
https://warosu.org/vr/image/tzv9ySgUc1AJdgcwN87IZQ

>>11963294
>Debunked as the video proved.
I have to agree with this anon >>11962797, that video is indeed horseshit. That would be like benchmarking the 65C816 using ZSNES.

>>11965663
That video isn't horseshit as the benchmarks were made with real hardware using flash carts to run the benchmarking roms.
I'm sorry but you're delulu, please seek help.

>>11965725
Were we not watching the same video? The emulators being used are clear as day.

>>11965731
Shopped.
Meaning you edited that image.
So please shut the fuck up you delulu retard, you don't know what you're talking about.

>>11965740
Are you too lazy to go to 2:14 in the video? I even had the video preserved so you know for sure that isn't "shopped." To me, that sounds like you're admitting defeat.
https://preservetube.com/watch?v=2k_jP73Ly7A

>>11965749
I did, it says real hardware.

>>11965763
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY

>>11961421
Yo dawg go look up the price of a processor today. Like an I5. Let's just say we had 100% inflation since 1988. IDK the true value but that is 2$ in todays money

What kind of processor can 2$ buy you right now? But also because computers are so much more prevalent processors in general are relatively cheaper now, at least I would assume. This is how retarded you sound but you somehow seemed very assured of this.

>>11965776
Not the case at all, Intel shouldn't even be in this discussion because Intel always inflates their cost to their CPUs, meanwhile Motorola and Western Design Center/Ricoh didn't.

>>11965776
Here's the source to back that guy's claim BTW, since he won't do it in a way that's transparent.
>But as with all semiconductor products, the price of the 68000 plummetted as volume production began, and it now sells for about $15.
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/29/business/motorola-s-powerful-new-chip.html
https://archive.is/xlMZo
This had more to do with a deal Apple made with Motorola for their series of Macs.
https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2012/04/102658164-05-01-acc.pdf
On pg. 12, Tom Gunter recalls how Steve Jobs wanted M68K processors sold for $15 apiece because Jobs thought his Macintosh line was the future. Because of this, he had to convince Murray Goldman to drop the price of M68Ks to $55 per chip once Apple bought more units than they are being sold. As a result, the price eventually dropped to $14.76.

>>11964382
Nope.
These are the official top 100 sales numbers. VF2 alone sold 4x as much as the best selling Street Fighter.

>>11966187
>15 - Enemy Zero

When it comes to Sega, having a console warrior dev pays off even if the game is shit.

>>11966187
>>11966194
Those numbers already got debunked years ago, seek help.

>>11965740
>>11965740
> it says real hardware
> shopped!
>>11966543
> deboonked!
what a fucking loser lmao.

>>11965819
Fun fact, this deal is why we'd later have the PPC series of processors.

>>11968426
Why the fuck are you posting edited screen caps?

You're the fucking looser in this thread.

>>11968612
>posting edited screen caps
https://youtu.be/2k_jP73Ly7A?t=157
what a fucking loser lmao.

In case you're curious, that CPU performance test OP keeps linking is open-source.
https://github.com/hmouradian/16-Bit-Console-CPU-Benchmarks
I was able to compile the SNES and TG-16 ones, but BlastEm was a no-go. Kinda makes you wonder... (Could possibly need SGDK as well, but I'm not exactly as coder.)

>>11969431
>as coder
*a coder

>>11969158
That video said real hardware, you're the clown in this thread.
>>11969431
OP didn't post that video.

>>11969783
Oh, then what's this?
>>11960582
You even back the video itself up, which leads me to believe you're contradicting yourself.
>>11961421

This thread still being up proves how bad the moderation of /vr/ is.

>>11969876
You pick THIS thread?

>>11967154
>>11964039
>>11969540
>>11967691
>>11967632

They just deleted a thread about a guy posting a discord link btw so they're here. They just DON'T GIVE A FUCK. /vr/ is officially a shitpost board now.

>>11969876
Don’t see what the problem is, it’s a genuine discussion of retro hardware.

>>11969886
I filtered that thread immediately because OP's picrel made me cringe.

>>11969892
>it’s a genuine discussion of retro hardware.
The hell it is.

>>11969892
> a genuine discussion
>entire thread is just enormous fucking moron having a mental breakdown because anons don't have time to read the delusional lies from a schizophrenic
>all because anons laughed at the pc engine
me and many others that use this board are kinda tired of seeing it hijacked by some of the most repulsive liars and mentally ill rejects we've ever seen, where they use /vr/ as a mental illness blog to vomit up schizophrenic fantasies, revisionist history and derailing threads because they got btfo. and we all know these morons come here, it's because they're banned and ostracised from everywhere else online. these are the kinds of people that if you saw them on the street you would avoid their tent on the sidewalk and not interact with them as they asked you for spare change.

honk honk

>>11970103
That has never been the case.

>>11947518 (OP)
yes

>>11970130
> never been the case

>>11947518 (OP)
>4 chamillion buttons
Nah, fuck that, 6 buttons was enough.
>Needed 2 YM2612 chips, not just 1.
Why use two cut-down chips, instead of a full-fat 2608 or 2610?
Also, the console needed a stereo DAC on the main amp from the very first model, for true stereo output from the TV connector. Instead of cheaping out with a walkman-grade DAC and a secondary headphone out.
>Needed to use a 16MHz 68020
Too expensive. A 10 MHz 68000 was easily doable, though, and sufficiently capable for period. Also needed to get rid of the expansion port, so as not to be tempted to use it for shit add-ons like the CD (which would've never worked properly anyway, due to the lack of IRQ allocation on the port).
CD should've never been an add-on, but part of a standalone console.
>4 players out of the box, not 2.
Nah, there weren't that many games which would've benefitted from more than 2 players at the time. Besides, 4-player split screen on a 15-inch early-90s kid's room TV would've been headache-inducing.
>delet Master System backcompa, beef up the video chip, more RAM everywhere
Absolutely yes. So many missed opportunities (128K Mode) due to heavy-handed cost-cutting and misguided legacy support.

>>11971334
>Buttons.
OP said 8 (A, B, C, X, Y, Z, L and R, the last 2 being shoulder buttons) (10 counting Mode and Start).

>Why use two cut-down chips, instead of a full-fat YM2608 or YM2610?
Because the Genesis already has PSG hardware, but without Master System support dual YM2608 or better yet dual YM2610B shouldn't be out of the question.

It's just that the YM2612 was only a dollar a chip in 1988 so OP was going by that logic.

>CPU
A 16MHZ 68020 was only $5 dollars a chip by 1988 and by 1988 a 10MHz 68000 would be a laughing stalk since you be capped at 4MB because of Master System support and 8MB without Master System support when the rest of the world needed at least 4GB to do anything.

>CD
Yes that should've been the Genesis 2.

>4 Players.
Yes we needed 4 players.

>Better video hardware.
At lease you agree on something with the OP.

>>11971295
That is the case you retard.

>>11971849
>OP said 8
Yes, and I said the second model Genesis gamepad (which should've been the launch model) was sufficient for the requirements of late-80s to early-90s games.
>Because the Genesis already has PSG hardware
As you mentioned, only as part of MS compa. If you completely remove it, the YM2612 is insufficient, a full-size sound chip is required.
>A 16MHZ 68020 was only $5 dollars a chip by 1988
A 10-12 MHz 68000 was just a bit over $1.
And, what do you mean by 4MB, 8MB and 4GB?
>Yes that should've been the Genesis 2.
Absolutely, with a launch date circa mid-late 1992.
>Yes we needed 4 players.
No, because a) the TV sets to properly display 4-split either didn't exist, or were prohibitively expensive at the time; b) the code to run them concurrently was very complex with 89-91 devtools leading into; c) the types of games which would be suited for 4-split were still easier to implement in arcades (not to mention more profitable).
>you agree on something with the OP.
Video would have been easily fixable had they not kept hitching their wagon to the crappy MS, or had they not cut the shit out of the bill of materials. They should've gone with grin-and-bear it, since the RAM cartel would inevitably collapse at some point (like it eventually did, repeatedly).

>>11973605
>Controller
8-10 buttons is for future proofing.

>YM2612
Thats why OP said 2 of them, 1 isn't enough.

>4MB, 8MB and 4GB
Address spacing.

>Genesis 2.
More like 1991

>4 Players
The N64 had 4 player support while also being a 240p console, using the same CRTs the Genesis used.

>>11974394
>future proofing
Yeah, sure...

>>11974401
Theres a right way and a wrong way of future proofing,

The Jaguar is the wrong way.

>>11974415
Still doesn't need that many damn buttons, even if you do it the "right" way. SEGA were rooted in arcade hardware, and their 6-button controllers fit with that standard.

>>11973605
>Video would have been easily fixable had they not kept hitching their wagon to the crappy MS,
>easily fixable
they had no choice with the megadrive. i can already see how it would play out:

>be you
>a high level marketing genius at sega
>wipes the drool off his face using his tie
>"yeah, just get rid of the sms support in the next version megadrive. nobody needs it. we can add better things! we need to stop hitching our wagon to it lol"
>every game released for old megadrive stops working
>"how could this possibly have happened? who could have predicted this?"
>wagon is off the road and on fire
>bankrupts sega
genius iq. you can almost hear the honking of horns and circus music. you would need to keep that sms support AND expand the graphical capability, which was never going to happen for a console that was rapidly aging. or get a time machine, go back in time and tell sega not to support the master system, where they would have escorted you out of the building - after laughing at you.

>>11974426
Thats because of Europe, the Master System didn't do well in Japan and North America and if the Master System failed as badly in Pal markets as it did in NTSC markets you will know Sega would've choose scaling and rotation (along side more colors and sprites) over Master System support.