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Thread 11948321

353 posts 68 images /vr/
Anonymous No.11948321 >>11948417 >>11948427 >>11948438 >>11948697 >>11948761 >>11948773 >>11949117 >>11949182 >>11949242 >>11949943 >>11949960 >>11950036 >>11950667 >>11951142 >>11953302 >>11955915 >>11956342 >>11958485 >>11958586 >>11958624 >>11958847 >>11958885 >>11959998 >>11963057 >>11965316 >>11965661 >>11966538
Was Z-Targeting really as revolutionary as it was, considering most people who talk about Ocarina of Time only mention the lock-on targeting aspect of Z-Targeting?
Anonymous No.11948328 >>11948332 >>11948341 >>11948406 >>11948703 >>11949090 >>11949094 >>11951021 >>11952620
nigga no one cares about z-targettings influence on the gaming hemisphere. hideous kojima certainly did not swerve his gaming escapades to include the wondrous z-targetting tech and z-targetting video game philosophy. i doubt he even read the sheikah stone's gossip that sits before king zora's balls.
however, i will also say, i doubt you are some youtuber faggot. i say this, because it is inevitable some homosexual jaded /vr/ faggot who has forgotten all joy in his life, will accuse you of farming opinions for a youtuber video. as if that matters to me, you, or anyone. anyway, god bless, and go fuck yourself.
Anonymous No.11948332
>>11948328
what
Anonymous No.11948341
>>11948328
I don't understand but I agree
Anonymous No.11948406
>>11948328
Anonymous No.11948417 >>11948473 >>11965154
>>11948321 (OP)
nintendo has literally never innovated before.
every single new gameplay gimmick has been done by other games, nintendo just popularized them.
Anonymous No.11948421 >>11949372
>you see, grungle fucker 4 did it before the game everyone knows and loves so...
Anonymous No.11948427
>>11948321 (OP)
If it was a big deal more people would care about the games that did it first. It's not.
Anonymous No.11948438
>>11948321 (OP)
Personally I didn't realize it was supposed to be a big deal playing it in '99 or so. Just seemed pretty obvious. You had stuff like Soul Edge from 1995 that was basically two 3D fighting game characters that could move off-axis with a permanent lock (just to mention something I had actually played a lot IRL. I'm sure something else was earlier, not to mention Virtual-On or whatever that I never played). It didn't make the think "wow suddenly I'm in the future"
Anonymous No.11948451 >>11949080 >>11949372 >>11953998 >>11958563
The thing about games like SM64, OoT, MGS1, and RE4, is that their revolutionary nature is directly related to innovations that elevated 3D gaming as a whole.
>SM64's analog movement and camera controls prove that 3D platformer games can not only be fun but can be better than most 2D experiences. This was when 3D gaming had a lot to prove for itself.
>OoT's Z-targeting proved that action games could work in 3D by implementing a simple lock-on feature so that you could track one specific enemy or target and keep it centered. Camera controls were often heavily criticized at this time, so this showed everyone the way.
>MGS1's real time cutscenes and top-notch voice acting proved that 3D games with their own graphics and VAs could provide a cinematic level of storytelling and Hollywood-like production values. This was when everyone finally started to take video game stories seriously and expected actually good voice acting in their games.
>RE4's over-the-shoulder aiming solved a problem that OoT didn't solve which was how best to handle precision aiming in 3rd-person games. Every single 3rd person shooter uses this innovation to this day.

and, no, I don't care who actually did what first. these are the games that people looked to.
Anonymous No.11948472 >>11948724 >>11949174 >>11961128
The only thing it revolutionized is the types of delusions Nintendo fanboys are endlessly plagued by
Anonymous No.11948473
>>11948417
Hey guru larry
Anonymous No.11948531
The idea that nobody at Nintendo ever played Tomb Raider is pretty ridiculous. Even aesthetically, if you look at old screenshots of Ocarina of Time, the game basically looked like Mario 64, until later on where it was given these much more detailed and darker textures giving it a more dramatic look. No doubt they were taking ideas from Tomb Raider, but also because the standards of N64 graphics had raised since the release of Mario 64, where games like Banjo-Kazooie had a much deeper and comprehensive use of textures and colors to create individual moods.
Anonymous No.11948693
It worked well in an era where there were minimal precedents on how to go about things in 3D. That’s all that really matters.
Anonymous No.11948697
>>11948321 (OP)
Nope it's just grasping at straws to try to claim OoT innovated something when people criticize it. Nobody actually gives a shit.
Anonymous No.11948703
>>11948328
real
Anonymous No.11948705
The best video game ever made (dark souls 2) works better without the lock on so no it was a useless trash feature for normies who can't play DARK link is a skill check
Anonymous No.11948715
I'm trans btw
Anonymous No.11948724 >>11949372
>>11948472
How is Megaman Legend's auto aim anything like the lock on of Zelda?
Anonymous No.11948731 >>11948762 >>11949103 >>11949174
It revolutionized gaming in that when using lock-on, only the enemy being locked on to attacks you. So it casualized action gaming beyond repair. For this it should be celebrated as a milestone of gaming, and the cornerstone of the medium. All hail OoT! It saved us from the clunky, junky, dated, aged philosophies of the past.
Anonymous No.11948761
>>11948321 (OP)
Why do you care? Do you think it's not?
Anonymous No.11948762
>>11948731
You sound insecure.
Anonymous No.11948773 >>11950449 >>11950579
>>11948321 (OP)
Nintendo didn't even remotely invent Z-targeting. It was used in flight simulators years before it was in Zelda.
Anonymous No.11948802
/v/'s stupidity's really spilled over onto /vr/ after reading this thread.
Anonymous No.11948847
STOP.
LIKING.
NINTENDO!!!!!!
Anonymous No.11949080 >>11953489
>>11948451
are there any alternate third person aiming schemes that worked decently from the early 3D era?
Anonymous No.11949090
>>11948328
Most sane /vr/ poster
Anonymous No.11949094
>>11948328
Very nice anon
Anonymous No.11949103
>>11948731
nigga no one cares about z-targettings influence on the gaming hemisphere. hideous kojima certainly did not swerve his gaming escapades to include the wondrous z-targetting tech and z-targetting video game philosophy. i doubt he even read the sheikah stone's gossip that sits before king zora's balls.
Anonymous No.11949117
>>11948321 (OP)
Maybe if N64 had two sticks they wouldn't have gone with automated targeting.
Anonymous No.11949174 >>11949372
The real innovation of Z-targeting was in people at Nintendo figuring out what needed to be done to properly implement fully realized melee combat with free movement in 3D where multiple movements and actions freely combine together while making sense and being fluid. This is the really significant thing, because it wasn't trivial to implement at all, as the game had to implement a complex state machine and system of animation blending to pull it all off the way they did (just look at z_player.c in the decomp). Most 3D games with targeting still don't implement anything quite as advanced as this (look at the trickshots possible in dodge animations for an example).

Pretty much everything beforehand ether used stock movement and just changed the camera orientation and/or aim vector (a completely trivial thing to do, one of the most basically obvious things you can do in 3D) or at most gave you liner motion with a fixed sidestep animation.

>>11948472
MML is an amazing game, and it and Ganbarre Goemon are great examples of solid 3D Zelda style games that came out before Ocarina. But specifically shilling MML over OoT because of its targeting is just fucking embarrassing man. What it does for targeting is absurdly simple and a complete failure due to how you need to be constantly moving to fight properly, and the target button just roots you to the spot and point your y-axis rotation towards an enemy. There are all kind of good things you can say about MML, and you choose to focus on the dodgy lockon that's hardly worth mentioning except to try to 'own' Zelda on a technicality.

>>11948731
>only the enemy being locked on to attacks you
That only applies to a select few enemies that swordfight you in pairs.
Anonymous No.11949182 >>11949737
>>11948321 (OP)
>uh... hmm... yes it was a stage play that inspired Z-Targeting if my memory serves me correctly
>no, it absolutely wasn't "Virtual-On" in an arcade we passed by on the way through the park!
Anonymous No.11949242
>>11948321 (OP)
Z targetting made the game easy for retards, compare with the dogs in Resident Evil which made me piss my pants.
Anonymous No.11949372 >>11949775 >>11950506 >>11953564 >>11953698 >>11954067 >>11958152 >>11958563
>>11948421
>>11948451
>>11948724
>>11949174
It's really telling how nintenfags
>consider the contributions and innovations of devs who got us from 0% to 80% worthless
>consider the contributions and innovations of devs who got us from 85% to 100% worthless
>only consider the 5% Nintendo contributed when the tech was already at 80% important, because it was Nintendo who did it
Just say you don't care about games outside Nintendo and get it over with
Anonymous No.11949737 >>11950134
>>11949182
>Zelda? It was inspired by exploring the woods not by Tower of Druaga and Hydlie two of the most played games of the first half of the 80s.
I like Zelda like you wouldn't believe but some stories are just bullshit, if Horii and Nakamura stated from the get go to have ripped off Wizardry and Ultima why Nintendorks can't just said how it really is?, though I do believe there's an interview with Miyamoto out there that says that Zelda was inspired by Druaga.
Anonymous No.11949775
>>11949372
How is the auto aim you posted anything like z-targeting
Anonymous No.11949943
>>11948321 (OP)
It's not really that innovative. You already had other targeting mechanics before, like aiming in Resident Evil for example.

What really was revolutionary was the lock-on mechanic from Afterburner 2 or whoever first came up with lock-on mechanics. It was just common sense to add something like this to a real 3d game.
Anonymous No.11949960 >>11950580
>>11948321 (OP)
I think Ocarina of Time as a whole was pretty revolutionary. It's literally Dark Souls. The lock-on targeting is just one of many things the game did right.

I'm not a Nintendo fan and never cared much about their games, but they did a pretty good job at using arcade game design and making it more marketable to a home console audience. That's something Sega never really managed to do. They were just really good at making arcade games.
Anonymous No.11950036
>>11948321 (OP)
It was very revolutionary, but it's all people who didn't play it know about, so they shit their diapers raging about Nintendo and unironically pretend Virtual On, Tomb Raider, homing projectiles in flight sims etc. have anything halfway resembling OOT's Z-targeting system. They probably never played these games that they list either, especially Virtual On, otherwise they wouldn't being them up if they were being genuine instead of being the type of person who would say Street Fighter II had no impact and is overrated by Capcom cultists because Alex Kidd was already out and featured punching years earlier.
Anonymous No.11950134 >>11950424 >>11950456
>>11949737
One of the problems with the bullshitty stories that sound better/more marketable is that they actively work against advancing the craft of vidya development by turning things into a "we thought of it first" game instead of accepting that game dev as a collective whole ALWAYS finds inspiration from the shit that came before it. Innovation in game development is not about -who did it first- because all outcomes are inevitable given a long enough timeline with enough developers working on things. It's all iterative, and inspiration needs to be worn as a badge of honor rather than a black mark. The attitude that all ideas -must be- wholly original (or as much as possible) goes directly against the natural, iterative state of any art.
Anonymous No.11950424
>>11950134
Credit where credit is due, anon. It's not hard to understand.
Anonymous No.11950449 >>11950579 >>11950624
>>11948773
I've been saying this shit for eons. It's an artifact from the military. The military "invented" lock-on targeting and Nintendo turned it into "Z-targeting".
Anonymous No.11950456
>>11950134
>who did it first
If that motivates someone to reach for innovation, so be it. It hurts no one, except the butthurt.
Anonymous No.11950506 >>11950517 >>11950575
>>11949372
yeah, its crazy how tendies, and specifically oot zealots, put the n64 on such a pedestal and give zero fucks about anything else before or after. really good description.
Anonymous No.11950517 >>11953125 >>11953149 >>11960005
>>11950506
They're N64 loyalists and hate video games. It's not only a matter of being a Nintenfag, but a N64-only fag; look like they ask Nintendo constantly to make a Mario like SM64 again, a Zelda like OoT, a Starfox like SF64, etc. They're genuinely broken and have probably the worst and most limited adaptability ever known to man. In a way I pity them since they can only play the same 10 games for eternity and can't enjoy anything else.
Anonymous No.11950575
>>11950506
>oot zealots
Reminder that this autist is a 36yo manchild wagie who's spammed this buzzword for 8 years obsessed over a game and fanbase he hates.
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/678375608/#q678395148

https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/678375608/#q678396674

https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/678375608/#q678394196

https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/text/%22zelda%20zealots%22/

https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/text/%22zelda%20zealots%22/order/asc/

https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/text/%22oot%20zealots%22/order/asc/

https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/text/%22oot%20zealots%22/order/asc/
Anonymous No.11950579 >>11959105
>>11948773
>>11950449
That wasn't even OPs question. Rent free.
Anonymous No.11950580 >>11956793
>>11949960
>I think Ocarina of Time as a whole was pretty revolutionary. It's literally Dark Souls
Go back to v zoomie
Anonymous No.11950604
So this is just a Nintendo griefing thread masked as a genuine thread with a question.
Anonymous No.11950624 >>11950679 >>11951307 >>11959114
>>11950449
Donkey Kong wasn't the first platformer where you jump since you can just jump in real life.
Anonymous No.11950667 >>11950706
>>11948321 (OP)
It's hilarious that everyone ITT is still yet only mentioning lock on targeting, despite Z-Targeting doing a lot more than just that.
Anonymous No.11950679
>>11950624
Exactly.
Anonymous No.11950693
did other games with 3d lock-on mechanisms prior to OoT have dynamic cinematic camera angle calculation?
Anonymous No.11950706 >>11950871
>>11950667
What can it do? It's good for both hostile and friendly NPC's, for inanimate objects or points of interest, for speaking as well as combat, for movement around the target as well as auto-aim, it unlocks an additional moveset and it can be used with no target at all which enables Link to peek around corners, jump on his own accord, etc. Am I missing anything? It really is a comprehensive system. Nobody else did anything like that before OoT.
Anonymous No.11950871 >>11950953
>>11950706
Oh yeah, that's right. You use it to reorient the camera.
Anonymous No.11950953 >>11950985 >>11959094
>>11950871
It switches between your combat and movement abilities, reorients the camera, allows you to read and talk from a distance or on horseback, it toggles on strafing and circle strafing, and lastly it locks onto enemies.

It's such a well implemented and executed game mechanic that is integral to the game, that goes over swathes of retards' heads.
Anonymous No.11950968 >>11953213
Z-targeting is strictly for lock-on tar- ACK
Anonymous No.11950985 >>11950991 >>11950998
>>11950953
It turned 3D games into "single button interaction" moviegames for decades, you can't even jump in the game
Anonymous No.11950991
>>11950985
>you can't even jump in the game
What game?
Anonymous No.11950998 >>11951024
>>11950985
>It turned 3D games into "single button interaction" moviegames for decades
OoT is so powerful it singlehandedly altered the course of video game design. You heard it right here, folks. By the way, context sensitive buttons were used before OoT and it takes at least two buttons to use Z-Targeting while 5-7 can be used in total.
Anonymous No.11951021 >>11951030
>>11948328
>crying about kojima out of nowhere
>crying about youtubers out of nowhere
>crying about homosexuals out of nowhere
just needed to cry about zoomers/jews and it'd be quintessential seething 4chan boomer post
Anonymous No.11951024 >>11951062
>>11950998
Slop usually gets copied en masse, see Ubisoft open worlds
Anonymous No.11951030 >>11951067
>>11951021
80iq post
Anonymous No.11951062
>>11951024
Huh? You mean grand theft auto, the getaway, true crime series, Jak 2, the list goes on and on. Ubisoft didn’t start that trend for damn sure. That’s what they’ve pushed for the last several years tho and they’re almost bankrupt and out of business so….
Anonymous No.11951067
>>11951030
79 iq post
Anonymous No.11951142 >>11952094 >>11961080
>>11948321 (OP)
I don't know, but I need a background texture pack stat.
Anonymous No.11951307 >>11952098 >>11959114
>>11950624
Space Invader also didn't invent shmups. People have been shooting aliens to defend their land since time immemorial.
Anonymous No.11952094
>>11951142
That looks cursed, mate.
Anonymous No.11952098
>>11951307
>People have been shooting aliens to defend their land since time immemorial.
Checks out. See the stories of the nephilim.
Anonymous No.11952620
>>11948328
>hideous kojima
kek
Anonymous No.11953125 >>11953149 >>11953220 >>11955687 >>11960005
>>11950517
dude, exactly. to them, games have somehow never evolved at all since then, and anything before might as well not exist. the tunnel vision and zealotry is insane.
Anonymous No.11953149 >>11953247 >>11953383 >>11953906
>>11950517
>>11953125
I'd love to see your list of games better than the classics. If adaptability means tolerating paypig, pay-to-win tactics and identity politics in my games, then that's a hard pass and you're a faggot for promoting it.
Anonymous No.11953213 >>11953459 >>11957479
>>11950968
I never understood why we cant target these fuckers.
Anonymous No.11953220
>>11953125
**be a 64 enthusiast. See posts in a thread complaining about people who only like n64**

Rent free every time. Is the Nintendo 64 fan boogeyman in the room w yall right now? Lmfao
Anonymous No.11953247
>>11953149
>64nigger thinks only AAA games exist
Checks out
Anonymous No.11953302 >>11953397
>>11948321 (OP) why do we have to have this thread every couple of weeks? It's so tiresome and artificial.
Anonymous No.11953383 >>11958750 >>11959981
>>11953149
Just look through his posts and search via images to get a sense of his shit tastes.

Again: Reminder that the faggot spamming "zealot" is a 36yo wagie.
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/text/%22oot%20zealots%22/

https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/image/L8G4y0QKMrYJewGR9gWhaQ/
Anonymous No.11953397 >>11953408
>>11953302
To be amazed by how few people understand Z-Targeting, and conflate it with lock-on.
Anonymous No.11953408
>>11953397
Because that was worth the bump.
Anonymous No.11953459
>>11953213
What would it change? Will the shield even block them? I don't think so. That section can be pretty tough on a three heart run without using the scarecrow song. They are hyper aggressive in everything they do. Honestly it's kind of unsettling.
Anonymous No.11953489 >>11953504 >>11953548
>>11949080
Before RE4 your choices were:
>Locking-on
>Switching to first person view
>Having your character at the bottom of the screen with/without a reticle that hovered above your character's head
>No aiming at all, you just shoot directly ahead in the direction your character or camera is facing
You can see why developers after RE4 picked up the over the shoulder camera view en masse, even if their games didn't have emphasis on aiming and shooting.
Anonymous No.11953504 >>11953518
>>11953489
Yo that looks good. May have to finally give it a try
Anonymous No.11953518
>>11953504
Don't be fooled, it's a Rareware game on N64 which means there's a lot of items you need to collect in order to beat the game, you even do a lot of backtracking near the end to go to previously-inaccessible areas.
Also if you want to play Jet Force Gemini you should have a real N64 controller on hand, the controls are laid out like this with C-Up and C-Down being your primary face buttons.
Anonymous No.11953548
>>11953489
>No aiming at all, you just shoot directly ahead in the direction your character or camera is facing
are there any games where this feels good and fits well with the enemy/level design?
I think a lot of run and gun type gameplay failed to smoothly transition to 3D cause they decided to focus on aiming instead of platforming. They became something different and I've always thought it would be interesting if they maintained platforming being the top priority.
Anonymous No.11953564 >>11953906 >>11958152
>>11949372
Its crazy theyll keep moving the goalpost and arguing, while knowing the truth. Then say they don't care and give Nintendo the "we invented everything" award. It's a fuckig cult. Credit is due to the progenitors of these innovations and respect is due to the programmers. I praise David Braben all the time, and he had multiple types of targeting in elite/frontier elite. Not only does frontier elite sport complex targeting systems, it also makes starfox look like a baby game. To all the fucking complete retards who think starfox was somehow the most advanced flight game of the time. It's all so tiresome.
Anonymous No.11953698 >>11953728
>>11949372
The real version of this would have the one on the right show a bunch of interviews devs namedrop the Maifrendo game as their inspiration, and the one on the left shits his diaper and calls him a cultist.
Anonymous No.11953728 >>11953743
>>11953698
What does that have to do with anything, you care more about who had more money to pump into their marketing than who had the idea first?
Anonymous No.11953743 >>11953769
>>11953728
The comic is about "default standards" that everyone copies. No one's making platformers like Jumping Flash, no one's copying MML's shitty lock-on system where you can't move, etc.
Anonymous No.11953769 >>11953809
>>11953743
No one's copying Nintendo's way of doing things anymore either, the stuff they "invented" was deprecated and replaced not even a year later, everyone still uses dual analogs for example, even Nintendo
Anonymous No.11953809 >>11953814
>>11953769
Nobody's made tank control platformers for 25 years all because SM64 made them obsolete overnight. Sony made their own (as admitted by the director) Mario knockoff last year which won a bunch of awards.
Anonymous No.11953814 >>11953816 >>11954393
>>11953809
And nobody's made SM64 style single analog control 3D platformers for 25 years all because the dual analog made them obsolete overnight, *except dual analog is still in use and the standard for everyone including Nintendo*

That is the whole point that you keep missing
Anonymous No.11953816 >>11953825
>>11953814
But you don't have a point.
Anonymous No.11953825 >>11953846
>>11953816
I do, it's that you focus solely on an obsolete intermediary step in evolution, rather than the people who started the evolution or the people who perfected it, just because the obsolete step was done by Nintendo, which is what's outlined in the comic
Anonymous No.11953846 >>11954212
>>11953825
It's an extra control input but the actual game design is still fundamentally based on SM64's innovations.
>obsolete step
So we agree that MML's joke of a lock-on system (which the comic replied to) should stop being brought up. Z-targeting was the system perfected and had no equal in that decade, and Ocarina of Time is a timeless cheatsheet for all modern action-adventure games.
Anonymous No.11953859 >>11960019
Zelda 64 thread
Anonymous No.11953906 >>11954062
>>11953149
theres really no point in trying to explain things to somebody that thinks the n64 is the peak of anything. its painfully obvious that it isnt, so anyone still thinking it is clearly wont understand points indicating otherwise.
>>11953564
i remember getting blown away by how games kept evolving and getting more complex too. i spent countless hours just aimlessly dicking around in mario64, simply because moving in a 3d environment was so cool. hell, i still do that with each mario game, and i loved how there were actually things to find and DO in every corner of the worlds in odyssey. but like, i play games to have fun, not to fanboy and suck them off. i still get excited when something at least a little bit original comes out. but its amazing how some people never grew past that moment in their childhood, and literally cant appreciate anything at all that has come after.
Anonymous No.11953998
>>11948451
>SM64
Not only analog movement, but doing away with tank controls in general and simply letting the player run and jump around the environment like a normal person. I first played it on a keyboard and it still felt good to play.
Anonymous No.11954062 >>11954076 >>11954356
>>11953906
>its amazing how some people never grew past that moment in their childhood, and literally cant appreciate anything at all that has come after.
This must be your projection. Why are you so retarded? You're on /vr/, mate. We aren't here to talk about all the cool new shit coming out. Whatever trauma the N64 and its fanbase caused you exists solely in your head.
Anonymous No.11954067
>>11949372
Genuinely pathetic that anyone took the time to make this image. You will be stuck at a mental age of 13 forever.
Anonymous No.11954076
>>11954062
>This must be your projection.
It literally is. He's fucking obsessed with Nintendo and their fanboys.
>>11951897
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/11439113/#q11451353
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/678375608/#q678395148
Anonymous No.11954212 >>11954256
>>11953846
>fundamentally based on SM64's innovations.
Which are based on innovations of the 3D games before it

>So we agree that MML's joke of a lock-on system (which the comic replied to) should stop being brought up.
Sure but if it's a joke then every obsolete Nintendo step is a joke as well

>Z-targeting was the system perfected and had no equal in that decade,
No one was even making games with Z-targeting after OoT as it didn't make a splash, and even when devs started making 3D melee combat games eventually they usually went with different systems and their own innovations like being able to switch targets, being able to adjust the camera with the other stick, skill-based ranged combat options without clunky first person, not requiring it for every single little interaction etc

>and Ocarina of Time is a timeless cheatsheet for all modern action-adventure games.
Actually it aged like milk
Anonymous No.11954256 >>11954264 >>11954359
>>11954212
Yes, and 3D platformers after SM64 are based it's innovations, hence all the knock offs it spawned and the total death of tank-controlled platformers and rise of big explorable areas full of pockets of content.

MML's lock-on is a joke because you can't move while doing it and it's an utter liability by the endgame. Capcom knew this because for MML2, they just ripped off the superior way OOT does it.

Z-targeting can switch targets and isn't required for every interaction. Play the game.

Ocarina of Time set the standard for 3D action-adventure games. It's the full package in a way that wasn't seen before in its genre, which is why it still holds up.
Anonymous No.11954264 >>11954309
>>11954256
Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time built off the standards of the games before them, and were quickly replaced as the standards by newer games that innovated even more

Nintendo didn't invent any of it themselves, and they didn't set any timeless standards still in use, and they're aware of it since they're copying those timeless standard-setting games themselves now
Anonymous No.11954309
>>11954264
You didn't play those games, so you wouldn't know.
Anonymous No.11954356 >>11954387 >>11955365
>>11954062
well theres a difference between talking about games and endlessly putting it on a pedestal like its the greatest thing ever.
theres a difference between like/praising a game, and utterly dismissing any and all criticism of it.
pretending like its some rule of /vr/ that you MUST only say positive things, and that you MUST hold the n64 in the HIGHEST esteem is just absurd.
Anonymous No.11954359 >>11954362
>>11954256
>3D platformers after SM64 are based it's innovations
Like Vexx and Banjo
Anonymous No.11954362 >>11954365
>>11954359
Based. Jak 1 is another great one.
Anonymous No.11954365 >>11954372
>>11954362
True I would also count that now that you mention it. That's all I have however.
Anonymous No.11954372 >>11954374
>>11954365
Anonymous No.11954374 >>11954380
>>11954372
This one doesn't feel Marioy, sorry.
Anonymous No.11954380 >>11954384
>>11954374
they said so
Anonymous No.11954384
>>11954380
I'm OK with that, I'm not seeing it.
Anonymous No.11954387 >>11954392 >>11954417
>>11954356
Well, what's the criticism of OoT, then?
Anonymous No.11954392 >>11954413
>>11954387
Shit gameplay
Anonymous No.11954393
>>11953814
>dual analog
Irrelevant cope that has nothing to do with the way you control the character or the how the levels and gameplay are designed. Also wrong, since the DS, PSP, and 3DS got several 3D platformers, as well as the PC, where you can play with your keyboard and mouse.
Anonymous No.11954413 >>11954419
>>11954392
>shit opinion dismissed
Thank you for your time. Now leave.
Anonymous No.11954417 >>11955154
>>11954387
ugly
music too whiny (no seriously, the music is written well, and modern arrangements are great, but that actual execution in game is way too whiny/grating in the tones)
needless cutscenes that take too long (like doors locking behind you)
chests taking too long to open, and needlessly repetitive text boxes (like for bombs)
text speed too slow and you cant skip it
combat being distinctly separate from exploring/puzzles
shitty non-puzzles (hurr durr, look up)
absolutely garbage combat and non-threatening enemies
item swapping is slow and clunky.
vast, empty areas to waste your time.
the controls have not really aged well either.
and i've probably forgotten a few others. but regardless, any and all of these points will be utterly rejected by the oot zealot. they arent even CONSIDERED, and oot must remain 10/10 perfect game to them. to them, no game has better puzzles. no game has better combat. no game has better anything. or laughably, the biggest huff of copium of all "well other games might do one or two things better, but none of them are 'the complete package'." as if whatever zelda does is automatically and inherently the best list of things that a video game CAN be.

and no, i will not attempt to put forth a "replacement" title for what "should" be considered the best game ever. im not narcissistic enough to make such a stupid claim when there are so many variables to consider.
Anonymous No.11954419
>>11954413
It's way too scripted and stilted to be fun, it's like a series of QTEs you have to set up yourself
Anonymous No.11955154 >>11955305 >>11955404
>>11954417
>ugly
>music too whiny (no seriously, the music is written well, and modern arrangements are great, but that actual execution in game is way too whiny/grating in the tones)
>needless cutscenes that take too long (like doors locking behind you)
>chests taking too long to open, and needlessly repetitive text boxes (like for bombs)
>text speed too slow and you cant skip it
>combat being distinctly separate from exploring/puzzles
>shitty non-puzzles (hurr durr, look up)
>absolutely garbage combat and non-threatening enemies
>item swapping is slow and clunky.
>vast, empty areas to waste your time.
>the controls have not really aged well either
Every single one of these is preference, anon. You're not really being critical of OoT. You're just giving us your opinion on the matter, which others can (rightfully) dismiss without question. You get pretty close with item swapping, but the system in general is not bad. Let me help you. As a big fan of OoT and Nintendo in general, I will say the biggest criticism of the N64 titles is not making use of the D-pad or the L-button. You should have been able to put any switchable items (boots, cloaks, swords, shields, etc.) on them to reduce unnecessary use of the menu screen. That's a legitimate criticism because it outlines the issue and offers a solution to the problem. By the way, having areas of criticism doesn't mean a game can't be 10/10. Criticism is not the same as a fault. The game isn't faulty because you can't swap boots out with a button in-game or use the D-pad and L-button to swap items. You still get three buttons for swapping items and it works just fine. Do you think you can see the difference?
Anonymous No.11955305 >>11955724 >>11956774 >>11958172
>>11955154
thanks for proving my point that its worthless to explain it. you write it off as "opinion" and cant even comprehend it being criticism of legitimate fault or things that have been improved upon in gaming since. "well im fine with it, so its fine" is not an argument. THATS opinion. oot is measurably, demonstrably primitive in the medium.

and im not saying that it cant be enjoyed. im not saying that it wasnt groundbreaking and mind blowing at the time. im not saying that recognizing such flaws will/should undo the fond memories people have of enjoying it. all im saying is that it definitely has flaws and shortcomings enough that its absurd to call it "10/10, perfect game, flawless, timeless masterpiece, best game ever made". by all means, enjoy it, but cut the disingenuous bullshit.
Anonymous No.11955365
>>11954356
You're a 36 year old manchild failed male wage cuck with a 3rd grade level writing style, (lazy punctuation, describing something like music as "whiny") crying and ranting on the internet, DAILY, about a game who's primary target audience is teens. You're an embarrassment, fatty.
Anonymous No.11955404 >>11955416
>>11955154
He literally stole those opinions 1 to 1 from a sub temp IQ e-celeb who hates 3D Zeldas besides BotW.
Anonymous No.11955416 >>11956774
>>11955404
they're not really opinions, and they're not stolen.
Anonymous No.11955428 >>11955443
>chests taking too long to open
>combat being distinctly separate from exploring/puzzles
>shitty non-puzzles (hurr durr, look up)
>absolutely garbage combat and non-threatening enemies
Straight up stolen from that shit video that never belonged to you that you only agree with.
Anonymous No.11955443 >>11955456 >>11955504 >>11955583 >>11957256 >>11958230
>>11955428
is there anything incorrect about these assessments? is it not possible that they are factual and true, and therefor observable to all? you seem really hung up on something else and not really open to actual discussion on the topic.
Anonymous No.11955453 >>11955460
>Doubles down
>Changes the subject
>Devil's advocacy
Grow up, faggot.
Anonymous No.11955456 >>11955468 >>11955474
>>11955443
NTA, I agree with those criticisms except this one
>>combat being distinctly separate from exploring/puzzles
never understood what Egoraptor was thinking with this
Anonymous No.11955460
>>11955453
Forgot to add projection to that list.
Anonymous No.11955468 >>11955484
>>11955456
He's complaining that it's not like ALTTP. Pretty much all of his arguments can be boiled down to "It sucks because it's not like ALTTP." because he thinks Zelda at it's core is literally all about the combat.
He pretty much got what he wanted with the Ys series, but you can't expect a pretentious armchair ideas guy to know what he's talking about. Also I'm calling samefag.
Anonymous No.11955474 >>11955484
>>11955456
you dont really have combat at the same time as navigating hazards or puzzles. its very "lock in and stand around fighting this non-threatening enemy. then go about the (usually) empty room, to the next room where you will do something. unlike something like the water temple in lttp where the sewer critters constantly threaten you while you navigate around, or the bouncy boys that might make you fall off of a ledge.
Anonymous No.11955484 >>11955654
>>11955468
>He's complaining that it's not like ALTTP
Partly, but lttp had dumb puzzles and combat too

That still doesn't explain his point about a disconnect between combat/exploration, and I don't think there's anything to it.

Which to me just reinforces the feel that he got carried away criticizing OoT, went too far

>>11955474
You don't have to lock in though, most mooks you slash as you go
Anonymous No.11955504
>>11955443
I mean you do have puzzles during combat. Right off the top of my head, after you fall through the floor in the dekue tree, and up top in the main room of dondegos cavern and even the bottom floor if you consider blowing up walls part of the puzzles. If I’m understanding this complaint correctly there is a ton of combat during puzzles in OoT. But maybe Im misunderstanding
Anonymous No.11955583 >>11955606 >>11955626
>>11955443
>is there anything incorrect about these assessments?
The one about non-puzzles is particularly untrue and absurdly contrarian and pretentious, because in actuality, it's just a braindead puzzle he doesn't consider challenging and/or doesn't like, but Arin is such a pretentious fag up his own ass that he thinks that /literally/ makes it "not" a puzzle and then compares it to literal fucking jigsaw pieces. That's /v/-tier food analogy levels of shitposting, which he used without a hint of irony when comparing the Castlevania series. kek

He's not using the definition in the proper context of the game and instead uses the verb of what puzzle means, which to confuse someone, and not the noun, which is a situation to test your knowledge.
I find it ironic that this baby-tier nuance goes over your head considering the way you bitch about this game juxtaposed with your age. lmao
Your autistic rage has blinded you.
Anonymous No.11955606 >>11955631 >>11955671
>>11955583
>Your autistic rage has blinded you.
NTA, you might be projecting

Also Egoraptor made the food analogy before /v/ decided they're overused and off limits.
Anonymous No.11955626 >>11955636 >>11955671
>>11955583
why do you insist on talking about a person, instead of the actual point? what rage? get a grip.

simply looking up, demonstrating the minimum of situational/spatial awareness, is hardly a puzzle or skill check. at the time, and to children unused to navigating 3d spaces, it might have been a bit confounding due to the novelty of 3d as a whole. thats the whole reason they did it. it simply makes use of the 3d space. but does it use it WELL? lmao, no, not really. as time has marched on and 3d become more normalized and second nature in gaming, it doesnt hold up as an actual puzzle. its nothing but a contrivance. i dont care what some rando "compares it to". praising this as a point of quality is just pathetic.
Anonymous No.11955631 >>11955639
>>11955606
i still dont understand why food analogies are somehow "wrong" on this site, lol.

personally, i like compare oot the musket or the ford model T. incredible at the time, but really primitive in the medium, and have since been outclassed.
Anonymous No.11955636 >>11955684 >>11958306
>>11955626
Do you guys even know what you’re arguing about. I don’t. Can we get a summary or a qrd?
Anonymous No.11955639 >>11955665
>>11955631
What has it been out classed by in your opinion?
Anonymous No.11955654 >>11955676 >>11955719
>>11955484
>Which to me just reinforces the feel that he got carried away criticizing OoT, went too far
That's really the whole crux of it and he even admitted a couple times, once during the OOT playthrough and another on Plebbit, the whole reason he made that OOT vs. ALTTP vid. was out of spite due to OOT's praise.

Also it's funny to me going back and rewatching that vid. years later that I was able to pinpoint the exact moment he lost his composure and trailed off into a sperging rant during that critique, all because of the eye switch in Dodongo's Cavern. The vid. was somewhat ok up until that point.
Anonymous No.11955665 >>11955859
>>11955639
ah, the classic bait question. "give me a title, so that i can point out that game's many flaws, and/or all of the zelda elements that it doesnt have, while ignoring the point of why you brought it up". lmao, no.

i dont need to list specific titles. graphics have improved. sound quality has improved. camera controls have improved. combat controls have improved. enemy ai has improved. skippable dialogue and cutscenes have been implemented. the list goes on and on with how things have been improved and refined. you cant honestly deny that.
Anonymous No.11955671 >>11955683
>>11955606
Not an argument.

>>11955626
Zelda has been overanalyzed, criticized and overpraised to death that I find psychoanalyzing the chip on your shoulder over this game to be more fascinating.
Anonymous No.11955676 >>11955707 >>11955870
>>11955654
The only two things he said that were 100% his own personal problem were "Thing out of nowhere" (His own lack of spatial awareness), and "Why cant i just fucking go there? Why do I have to do this stupid chore first?" (Impatience). Everything else was accurate and reasonable.
Anonymous No.11955683 >>11955687 >>11955736
>>11955671
its overrated. not much to analyze. maybe dont take it so personally?
Anonymous No.11955684
>>11955636
>Can we get a summary or a qrd?
OoT is overrated and isn't prefect.
Nintendo fanboys are a cult and suck it off too much and are "zealots" for doing so.
Anonymous No.11955687 >>11955692 >>11955724
>>11955683
Meant for >>11953125
Anonymous No.11955692 >>11955718
>>11955687
why would you try to commandeer my post?
Anonymous No.11955707
>>11955676
And that he sucks at the combat when he said it wasn't difficult.
Anonymous No.11955718
>>11955692
You have projection issues.
Anonymous No.11955719 >>11955727
>>11955654
>moment he lost his composure and trailed off into a sperging rant during that critique
To be fair, it is acting and exaggeration for entertainment, as seen in his previous videos. AVGN and Spoony do the same.

But it seems he lacked enough material (points of criticism) to justify his disdain towards OoT so he threw nitpicks in.

It's a good reminder that sometimes someone's opinions aren't entirely based on "objective" qualities.
Anonymous No.11955724
>>11955687
Sorry. Also meant for >>11955305
Anonymous No.11955727 >>11955729
>>11955719
>it is acting and exaggeration for entertainment
He claimed otherwise and considered that critique a failure.
Anonymous No.11955729 >>11955754
>>11955727
Really? Where?]
Anonymous No.11955736 >>11955780
>>11955683
You should go back to your Warframe general, troon.
Anonymous No.11955754 >>11955767
>>11955729
I don't have the image of it on me, but you'll have to go to his reddit account and find the post through there. He basically admitted it was rushed and full of holes and that that's his last Sequalitis.
Anonymous No.11955767 >>11955884
>>11955754
>>it is acting and exaggeration for entertainment
>He claimed otherwise and considered that critique a failure.
So you lied here

Remember kids, ask proof from these dishonest trannies, they always try to sneak in some bullshit
Anonymous No.11955780 >>11955880
>>11955736
i have never played warframe, nor do i post in warframe threads. not sure why you would make such a statement.
Anonymous No.11955859
>>11955665
Can’t name a single game. Okay.
Anonymous No.11955870
>>11955676
>Everything else was accurate and reasonable.
lol no it wasn't.
>Says Zelda 1 doesn't have a narrative
>Thinks games don't need a narrative or contextualization for them
>Constantly projects his opinions and feelings onto the viewer
>Thinks oot's an open world game and subsequently says its narrative "displaces the player's (ie. his) values"
>Compares the waiting difficulty of a 3D action adventure game and turn-based JRPGs to be the same
>Things he lashed out at oot for can also be attributed to alttp, but either gives it a pass, considers them to be a very minor offense or just ignores them
Anonymous No.11955880 >>11956918
>>11955780
>i have never played warframe, nor do i post in warframe threads.
https://arch.b4k.dev/_/search/boards/v.vg/filename/dYiYYtX/image/snlw1iC30dl22VO0xJWedA/
Anonymous No.11955884 >>11955930 >>11956925
>>11955767
>So you lied here
Not his fault you're a lazy faggot.
Anonymous No.11955915
>>11948321 (OP)
Yes because a lot of action games started using it after that.
Anonymous No.11955930 >>11955986
>>11955884
>>it is acting and exaggeration for entertainment
>He claimed otherwise
Wrong
>considered that critique a failure.
And he wouldn't even go as far to call it a failure lol

You're a dishonest fucking faggot.
Anonymous No.11955981 >>11957118 >>11958520 >>11961123
Still the GOAT.
Still influential.
Still played even to this day.
Cope n' seethe - Formerly filtered
Anonymous No.11955986 >>11957182
>>11955930
If you don't have any other arguments you can always be quiet instead. Arin lost.
Anonymous No.11956342
>>11948321 (OP)
Is auster really as gay and retarded as he is? Considering his own mother thinks hes gay and retarded, and most people only mention how gay and retarded he is?
Anonymous No.11956774 >>11956939
>>11955305
>>11955416
They are opinions. All of your points are subjective without any explanation evidence. They can all be reduced to "I don't like it". Not only that, but you are blatantly false in a few of them. You can skip most dialogue by pressing B. The only dialogue you can't skip is plot speech and cutscene speech. The reason they do that is so the actual dialogue has character. One look at the difference between Ganondorf's speech with Young Link outside the draw bridge on the N64 version and the 3DS version is huge and explains the reason why they do this. The cutscenes and dialogue in OoT are creative genius. So much character in them. I still laugh at them. Basically only autists can't get it and if you're one (you are), then literally nobody cares because you'll never get it and entertainment shouldn't cater to you in the first place. Furthermore, once you obtain an item you can speed through the "how to use" dialogue by pressing B. You say it's repetitive, but there's a good reason why it's there. It's so you can play the game if you lost the manual or you haven't played in a long time and don't remember how to do things. You don't have to like the copy pasted tutorials, but to act like they ruin the game is ridiculous because like I said, once you've gotten the item once you can speed through them. It's more likely the sound system you're using isn't calibrated properly than the music is "whiny". Combat and puzzles are intertwined, dude. You aren't even explaining yourself, so who knows whatever you think it "should" have been, thus your complaint falls on deaf ears. There are plenty of puzzles that take place during a fight, btw. The Deku Scrub brothers in the Great Deku Tree and the Anubis in the Spirit Temple are a great examples, yet most puzzles are fraught with many different enemies who are trying to kill you. It's the truth in pretty much every dungeon. You know he's gotta open the chest. If he didn't, you'd be complaining about that.
Anonymous No.11956793
>>11950580
This just made me realize DS1 released closer to OoT than it did present-day
Anonymous No.11956918 >>11957013 >>11957193
>>11955880
weird, because thats even how i post. perhaps we all saved it from the same place. the file name style i think is from imgur. why do you obsessively use the archive?
Anonymous No.11956925
>>11955884
>i made it out of spite
>but it DOES have problems, its just that my script came from a spiteful place
while it might not have been his proudest moment, it still absolutely mindbroke people with the pieces of truth it contained.
Anonymous No.11956939 >>11957107
>>11956774
i know that it falls on deaf ears. thanks for proving my point with your wall of massive cope. every single thing i listed is something that oot falls short on, but other games have since done better.
Anonymous No.11957013 >>11957193
>>11956918
lol, thats NOT* even how i post.
missed a word.
also its funny, because i never even go to /vg/, and the 4th post in that list is clearly somebody different from the others.
Anonymous No.11957107 >>11957140
>>11956939
Truly, you are doing all of the proving here. I am nothing compared to your own magnificent retardedness.
Anonymous No.11957118
>>11955981
GOATarina of Prime
Anonymous No.11957140 >>11957203 >>11957876
>>11957107
the facts and points are really extremely simple and self evident. its sort of like a litmus test to see if the person is actually open to having honest conversation not (you've proven that you arent, lol, as expected). if you cant understand even that much, you clearly illustrate that you arent worth taking any amount of time/effort to do more. its not my job to make a longform youtube video for you and essayfag (maybe he get tested for autism soon) to enjoy.
Anonymous No.11957182 >>11957203
>>11955986
>If you don't have any other arguments you can always be quiet instead. Arin lost.
You tried to lie and got caught. There's nothing to argue about, you idiot.
Anonymous No.11957193
>>11956918
>>11957013
>Same lowercase posting style
>Same smug gay energy
>Freudian slip
>Tires to ad hom by turning it around onto the other anon
At this point it'd be best for you to just ignore the accusations and talk about the game instead before you look even more guilty.
Anonymous No.11957203
>>11957140
>maybe he get tested for autism soon
You'll need it more than he does if we're being real here.

>>11957182
Egofagtor's not going to suck your dick, champ.
Anonymous No.11957256 >>11957258 >>11957767
>>11955443
I can't read this as anything other than goading for a fight when a few posts ago you've repeatedly said how much you don't want a discussion because you feel everyone's arguing in bad faith.
You expect everyone in this thread to be your audience and sit here listening to you list off your personal grievances about a game, its reception and fanbase without being challenged and then get all pissy when someone calls you an obsessed faggot which is true or disagree with you and unwilling to consider other perspectives.

All you just want an echo chamber and it's clear you do by how you high five other posts that agree with your sentiments. If you're this insufferable through text I can't imagine what you're like in person.
Anonymous No.11957258
>>11957256
>All you just want an echo chamber
Meant to say circlejerk, but either or. Amazed that faggot anal Mod hasn't cleaned up this god awful thread. Wonder if he quit.
Anonymous No.11957479
>>11953213
probably because for some obscure plot reason navi cant get close
Anonymous No.11957767 >>11957880
>>11957256
half of them are really surface level things that are pretty instantly observable. but when people utterly reject even that much (and deflect to personal vendettas or whatever) you DONT think thats arguing in bad faith? lol, get real.
Anonymous No.11957876
>>11957140
>i gave up two posts ago
>I'm still giving up
We get it. You've got nothing. It's all so tiring for you. You are literally incapable of defending your position because you have none. By the way, I would never waste my time watching a video made by you.
Anonymous No.11957880
>>11957767
All of them are "it's just not to my liking" so stop it.
Anonymous No.11958152 >>11958165 >>11958198 >>11958290
>>11949372
>>11953564
the 5 percent of progress contributed by nintendo is the key piece nobody else can figure out
Anonymous No.11958165
>>11958152
Because that was worth the bump.
Anonymous No.11958172 >>11958205
>>11955305
>measurably, demonstrably primitive
your mathematical formula for quantifying progress in artistic media?
Anonymous No.11958198 >>11958245 >>11958268
>>11958152
>nobody else can figure out
Most of it was really obvious stuff anyone else would've come up with quickly even without Nintendo's resources, it's not shit like e.g. Minecraft that was technically possible since early 3D but almost no one was even thinking in that direction until decades later Notch built upon Infiniminer's basis and made the best selling game of all time
Anonymous No.11958205 >>11958245 >>11958268 >>11958438
>>11958172
>how do you measure graphical quality?
>how do you measure sound quality?
>how do you measure control responsiveness and functionality?
>how do you measure enemy ai and engagement?
this is what i mean by being apparent at the surface level, and willfully ignorant of anything that has come after.
Anonymous No.11958230 >>11958256 >>11958913
>>11955443
question:
>is it not possible that they are factual and true, and therefor observable to all?
answer: it is not possible, because they are uniformly stated as judgements, not facts.

factual and true statement of a design flaw would be something like -
>because of the amount of time taken up by door closing animations, the player does not have enough time to complete the game within the time limit
>because the enemy/puzzle design is broken, the player cannot advance past certain encounters

these statements are true on their own because you don't need to supply a subjective belief to make them seem true. but that doesn't apply to the quoted complaints.

my hypothesis is that your complaints need help from your belief that games ought to respect (Your) time. it's the underlying premise that you have assumed, and that you think should be assumed on the part of your interlocutors. but most people on /vr/ don't believe that. and you're having difficulty in this discussion because it's only after supplying that statement as a major premise - that games respect your time - can complaints like "doors take too long to close" start to resemble a fact if you squint.

as a result you're simply stunned when people disagree with claims you view as factual, because you are constantly, unconsciously supplying your opinions with the hidden premise about the value of your time, which they need to stand as true judgements. but even if we grant this hidden premise - and we dont - they'll still only ever be judgements, not brute facts you can bully people to your point of view with. well, not intelligent people anyway.
Anonymous No.11958245
>>11958198
>it's not shit like e.g. Minecraft that was technically possible since early 3D but almost no one was even thinking in that direction
no, you're wrong, that's exactly what a universal camera-based context sensitive interaction system governed by the player through one-button input was. arguably from this perspective devolving the simple elegance of OoT's one-button z-targeting to the two input system of analog stick plus lock on button is a de-evolution if you want to argue in terms of "progress" like this rube >>11958205
Anonymous No.11958256 >>11958280
>>11958230
Nta

Why did you change
>>chests taking too long to open
to your version
>complaints like "doors take too long to close"
? Seems disongenuous.
Anonymous No.11958268 >>11958272
>>11958198
>>it's not shit [...] that was technically possible since early 3D but almost no one was even thinking in that direction
no, you're wrong, that's exactly what a universal camera-based context sensitive interaction system governed by the player through one-button input was. from this perspective splitting up the simple elegance of OoT's one-button z-targeting into the two input system of analog stick plus lock on button is a degeneration if you think you can safely and objectively argue about art media in terms of "progress" like this rube >>11958205.

i know these aren't retro games, but since some in this thread think "progress" is a safe terrain on which to stage these sorties, let's remember how shitty lock on was in the souls games before later iterations cleaned them up, and how they are still not quite fine tuned to the point where the player can reliably, every time, guess what target will be locked onto, without adding a menu option for the player to determine a default assumption for this behavior (lock on to closest enemy or lock on to target nearest to crosshair?) - compare this to OoT, where Navi conveniently informs the player with a color-coding system what target and what kind of target is going to be locked on to when pressing z. compared to this simple interactive system, the bloat attached to modern dual analog targeting systems is symptomatically degenerated from the effort to universalize controls and make things easy for the dumb.
Anonymous No.11958272 >>11958282 >>11958448
>>11958268
>no, you're wrong, that's exactly what a universal camera-based context sensitive interaction system governed by the player through one-button input was.
Not really, OoT released barely 2 years after the N64 which is not enough time for us to say no one would've ever come up with it had Nintendo not stepped in, pair that with the fact Nintendo had a head start since they were making the console itself and not just the game, and the fact lots of game experimenting with similar systems released shortly before and after OoT and would've probably landed on it on their own very soon, and we can confidently say Nintendo's contribution to the system is unimportant and comes down mostly to having the most marketing money

On the other hand a game like Minecraft was possible for decades and not even Lego games, which were close in concept and numerous, ever veered in that direction, and only once Minecraft was a hit did tons of crafting and survival games pop up, which means we can say that Minecraft's concept was something only Notch could think of
Anonymous No.11958280 >>11958284
>>11958256
okay so here's another example of what a factual statement would look like

>because of the amount of time taken up by chest opening animations, the player does not have enough time to complete the game within the time limit

hopefully i dont need to retype the rest of the post for you to see how it is analogous to the point of irrelevancy, rendering your pathetic, journalistic attempts at well-poisoning powerless.
Anonymous No.11958282 >>11958290 >>11958450
>>11958272
>not enough time for us to say no one would've ever come up with it had Nintendo not stepped
attempting to force the interlocutor to prove a negative is considered bad faith. you're "disongenuous"
Anonymous No.11958284 >>11958287 >>11958563
>>11958280
Nice, don't misrepresent in the future, you're only discrediting yourself.
Anonymous No.11958287 >>11958291
>>11958284
weak-willed post
Anonymous No.11958290 >>11958302
>>11958282
That's what >>11958152 tried to do by forcing me to prove no one else could figure Z-targeting out, I guess it was my fault for replying to a disingenuous post
Anonymous No.11958291
>>11958287
Don't get mad now for being called out, learn from it
Anonymous No.11958302 >>11958319
>>11958290
>forcing me to prove no one else could figure Z-targeting out
nobody is forcing you to prove that because you can't. all you have is the historical record, which is not supporting your point of view.
Anonymous No.11958306 >>11958464
>>11955636
OP asked if the merits of Z-Targeting were as influential as it stood to be considering everyone only ever brings up lock-on targeting failing to discuss all of its mechanics. This flies over everyone's heads and they wind up in boilerplate arguments about how much they like Ocarina of Time in general.
Anonymous No.11958319
>>11958302
The historical record shows devs coming up with systems extremely close to Nintendo's implementation of Z-targeting within just ~2 years of 3D consoles releasing which is the same amount of time Nintendo took despite having a lead

On the other hand systems we know for a fact took a genius to figure out went undiscovered for decades with no one even attempting anything similar, meaning Z-targeting was not important
Anonymous No.11958323
Zed Targetting
Anonymous No.11958325 >>11958469 >>11958470
COULD someone else have come up with

>the cursor highlights what object you will target
>the cursor changes color to inform you about what kind of object it is
>player's direction and movement influences object selected by cursor with context-sensitivity
>dynamic camera angles to capture the action when targeting

and the entire matrix of precise calculations needed to make these fit together into a seamless interaction surface to help children get a grip on an unfamiliar 3D world? yes, maybe... but did any one do it better than OoT before during or after that game's heyday? it's not really clear to me that anything better than z-targeting has been devised. it's not clear to me that dual-analog 3d camera control is really always universally better.
Anonymous No.11958336 >>11958342
My favorite part of Z-targetting is that targetting an enemy plays a "zeroing in" type noise, but targetting NPCs plays a softer sfx.
Also adjusting the camera behind you, the sfx has a different mood if you're in a dungeon or not iirc.
I just think it's neat.
Anonymous No.11958342
>>11958336
shh, don't say that you like that the game does certain specific things with the sound and camera to set up a certain mood, people will take this to mean you like movie games, it will harm your credibility...

no seriously though, these are the things that make z-targeting something different, superior, and special.
Anonymous No.11958438 >>11958714
>>11958205
Why don't you answer those questions for us and tell us what you see as surface level?
Anonymous No.11958448 >>11958450
>>11958272
Pure speculation. You sound like a delusional bad sport.
>If you hadn't won, then I would have, so your win is inconsequential.
Anonymous No.11958450
>>11958448
see >>11958282
Anonymous No.11958464 >>11958716
>>11958306
Many of these posters are fools who don't even play video games, much less like them. We all get it, they're just trolls looking for any way to stir up trouble. Fact of the matter is that true fans of vidya will spill the beans on their favorite games no matter what. It amuses me to no end that people are so mindbroke over Zelda, and OoT, specifically. There are always a bajillion threads on /vr/, basically at all times, about Zelda and in every single one of them anons are literally losing their minds (and their tempers) over it. It is such an emotional trauma they can't even articulate their view and explain themselves. Truly incredible.
Anonymous No.11958469
>>11958325
>it's not clear to me that dual-analog 3d camera control is really always universally better.
WW's engine is a significant improvement to the N64 Zeldas and is far and away the best camera control implementation of any other 3D Zelda ever made.
Anonymous No.11958470 >>11958481 >>11958481
>>11958325
The question is how many devs were even making games that necessitated such overwrought targeting systems, you singled it out as special due to all its supposed features, when those features primarily served Nintendo's specific needs and became basically obsolete soon after, as plenty of 3D PC and console games had much better camera and targeting implementations without needing such clunky systems
Anonymous No.11958481 >>11958541
>>11958470
Literally a bajillion 3rd person combat games.
>>11958470
>plenty of 3D PC and console games had much better camera and targeting implementations
Give us some examples.
Anonymous No.11958485 >>11958489 >>11958545
>>11948321 (OP)
All the 3D Zelda games afterwards have it, so yes. It was revolutionary because there was absolutely nothing like it before and it still feels natural compared to modern games. I know this because I've actually played the games dumbasses who don't play games like to namedrop like Virtual On.
Anonymous No.11958489 >>11958492 >>11958502
>>11958485
Is it really revolutionary if no one else uses the system except Nintendo, and everyone else has their own implementation based on something else
Anonymous No.11958492 >>11958496
>>11958489
It is revolutionary because there was absolutely nothing else like it before and it still feels natural compared to modern games because they all build off it. You'd know this if you played games and stopped typing like a teenager on twitter.
Anonymous No.11958494 >>11958501
if you never played OoT before gen 6 consoles you can definitely take a lot of 3d camera fluidity and its cinematic contrivances for granted, but like compare the best 3d games on psx to oot. people point to MML but you can't move while targeting in that game and the camera is purely utilitarian without any cinematic considerations like OoT's. whereas games on PSX with more cinematic camera work tend to have fixed angles (thinking of MGS and RE games on the one hand but also more dynamic stuff like vagrant story, where you have a lot of cinematic camera work in the cutscenes but a largely static top-down angle during gameplay/targeting).

the point here isn't to console war. dual analog represents a different solution to the same problem - that the "natural" cinematic camera orientations presented by today's 3d games weren't something generically settled even by the end of generation 5's shelf life. even the best and most praised dual analog camera systems with lock-on mechanics of today would be trash heaps without OoT's influence. just give evergrace a whirl to get a whiff of what 3d games could be in a vacuum.

the point is that even if OoT wasn't a sales monster, it was influential to the artistry of game development because it achieved canonical status with the developers who were working on this stuff in its wake, when all this stuff was ultimately settled in gen 6
Anonymous No.11958496 >>11958509 >>11958701
>>11958492
Plenty of 3D games had lock-on though
Anonymous No.11958501 >>11958563
>>11958494
>even the best and most praised dual analog camera systems with lock-on mechanics of today would be trash heaps without OoT's influence.
And even OoT's praised Z-trageting would be trash heaps without lock-on's influence
Anonymous No.11958502
>>11958489
Rent free.
Anonymous No.11958509 >>11958512
>>11958496
Here comes the part where you namedrop Mega Man Legends and flight sims.
Anonymous No.11958512 >>11958517 >>11958520 >>11958528
>>11958509
>the games that did the system before Zelda don't count because.. they just don't okay
Concession accepted
Anonymous No.11958517 >>11958521
>>11958512
So I was right. Also they're absolutely nothing like the way OOT does it. You don't play games.
Anonymous No.11958520 >>11958523
>>11958512
*Tap tap* >>11955981
Anonymous No.11958521 >>11958524
>>11958517
>OoT is just different because it's Nintendo
Funny projection coming from the fanbase that only plays games from one publisher to the point they thought Zelda invented open world games
Anonymous No.11958523 >>11958539
>>11958520
oh no no no
Anonymous No.11958524
>>11958521
Emulate the game like I did. Your computer won't get cooties from downloading a Nintendo ROM.
Anonymous No.11958528 >>11958532
>>11958512
The lock on in Megaman Legends doesn't work like the lock on in OoT though.
Anonymous No.11958532 >>11958539 >>11958569
>>11958528
The lock on in games after OoT doesn't work like the lock on in OoT though
Anonymous No.11958539 >>11958548 >>11958726
>>11958523
>>11958532
This guy's 37 years old, btw. Just keep that in mind, fellas.
Anonymous No.11958541 >>11958701
>>11958481
>Give us some examples.
PC has free mouselook which is infinitely superior to any clunky console camera and targeting implementation
Anonymous No.11958545 >>11958782
>>11958485
Rayman 2 is also similar. It centers the camera behind you, lets you do cool flips, enters a strafing state, and of course locks on to enemies.
Anonymous No.11958548 >>11958645
>>11958539
Pinning every negative comment about your daddy company onto a single boogeyman because you can't stand the idea of more people disliking it is a sign of stunted mental growth
Anonymous No.11958563 >>11958570 >>11958946
>>11958501
nobody said nintendo's 5% contribution doesn't build on what came before. the argument is that OoT does, contrary to this >>11949372, represent a more significant "5%" of the overall progress in 3d camera controls.

wise anon pointed out a possibly misleading substitution of a matter of fact (>>11958284), and it is telling that the comic uses the Mario M when the matter of discussion is Zelda's z-targeting. In fact it's Mario 64 that arguably doesn't do as well as it could have for camera, but that's a digression for another time.

i'm not a nintendie, i dont have loyalty to these sorts of things, but i think you're just starting trouble for trouble's sake if you think z-targeting doesn't represent a unique and special synthesis that obviously no one else was able to achieve at the time (>>11948451 seems to see this clearly, to which the comic guy replied to, a non-sequitur in my view).

people want to point to other games that had bits and pieces before and after but art history isn't really like that, that's just how progressives think it is, that all the little subalterns making their inchwise advances matter just as much as the titans. everyone else knows that significance in art history is about the lightning strike that welds all these base metals together into gold. that's why people like going back to z-targeting again and again, because there's actually very little before and after that gets it just this right, alongside everything else nostalgia people also like about OoT and MM. nintendo got the gold with this one, and dropped a second game.

my assumed premise in all of this is that mankind's universally agreed upon computerized representation and manipulation of 3D euclidean space is a primarily spiritual and artistic pursuit, falling under the purview of philosophical aesthetics and phenomenology, even if its means of advance are technical in nature. so, sorry if that made some of what ive written in this thread hard to interpret at times.
Anonymous No.11958569 >>11958576 >>11958649
>>11958532
Yeah they do. They didn't suddenly switch to Megaman Legend's "you get rooted into place and become a turret" system.
Anonymous No.11958570 >>11958591 >>11958770
>>11958563
My point is that z-targeting is also not "the lightning strike that welds all these base metals together into gold", as evidenced by the fact better systems like the precision of dual analog camera control replaced it soon after, you're just ascribing it far more value that it's really worth because Nintendo put a lot of money into marketing itself just like Apple does
Anonymous No.11958576 >>11958591 >>11958609 >>11958615
>>11958569
No they don't, they let you switch targets without exiting the lock on and let you use the second analog (that OoT didn't even have) for precision targeting if not locking on, and don't force you into first person if you want free aim etc, you're just obsessed with this one particular implementation because you got the wrong console one fateful Christmas as a kid and were forced to play the same handful of games over and over due to its weak library
Anonymous No.11958586 >>11958610
>>11948321 (OP)
OOT is unfun and this thread sucks. Games that invent revolutionary things tend to be aware of the novelty and put them on display for your immediate experimentation and enjoyment, like Mario 64. OOT makes you do copious amounts of tedious ballsucking between the few times you are permitted to use the oh so surely revolutionary technique of having the camera remain looking at a target of interest. Making up new words for existing necessities because you liked the way they did it more than the last guy is just marketing.
Anonymous No.11958591 >>11958607
>>11958570
>>11958576
so it's a psychological theory, you just think that there is some sort of sinister trauma behind the nigh-on universal praise
Anonymous No.11958607 >>11958615
>>11958591
I actually play games so I know it for a fact, it's no different than being into technology and knowing people didn't care for the LG Prada type phone until Apple poured billions into marketing the iPhone

Billions would disagree, and they'd all be wrong
Anonymous No.11958609 >>11958615 >>11958647 >>11958783
>>11958576
>they let you switch targets without exiting the lock on
Anonymous No.11958610
>>11958586
>just marketing
for whom exactly? talking about a 30 y.o cartridge sponge boy me bob.
Anonymous No.11958615 >>11958783
>>11958607
>>11958576
>>11958609
oh yeah unc, you actually play games.

absolutely fucking spit roasted. get off this board, newfag.
Anonymous No.11958624 >>11958628
>>11948321 (OP)
>OP's character has 2 hearts left
Imagine being so ass at this game that you take more than a couple hearts' worth of damage...
Anonymous No.11958628
>>11958624
Real chads play with damage multipliers on Ship
Anonymous No.11958629 >>11958636
>The lock on in games after OoT doesn't work like the lock on in OoT though
>Code Age Commanders
>Maximo 3 (RIP) even had it
>Demon's Souls
>Dark Souls 1 - 3
>Bloodborne
>Sekiro
>Every Soul-like clone on the planet (Nioh, Stellar Blade, Wukong, Wuchang, AI Limit, Khazhan, Bleak Faith Forsaken, Lies of P, Lords of the Fallen, Mortal Shell, The Surge, Code Vein, etc. etc. etc.)
>Darksiders 1 - 3
>FF16
>Jackie Chan
>Arguably Shinobi, Nightshade, MML2, Dissidia, Tunic, all the DMCs and Kingdom Farts
>B-But muh semantics
Cope. It's called refinement. I win. (You) lose.
Anonymous No.11958636 >>11958647 >>11958662
>>11958629
None of those work like the one in OOT though, there's as much difference between those as between MML and OOT
Anonymous No.11958645
>>11958548
I can't tell if you're ACfag or just some offshoot clone because you and him share a lot of the same autistic traits. Also nice reveal that you cry about Nintendo on /v/. Eric is a real shitposter btw.
Anonymous No.11958647 >>11958783
>>11958636
yeah but you have already been outed as having not played oot because you didnt know you can switch targets while locked on. see here for reference -- >>11958609

so you can shut the fuck up. all those great games work like oot and you cant convince anyone otherwise.
Anonymous No.11958649 >>11958672
>>11958569
MML's lock-on is also junk because by default he automatically switches targets when another enemy gets closer.
Anonymous No.11958662
>>11958636
Yes they do. FF16 even has a hold/toggle option for it's lock on, just like OoT. You literally don't play games.
Anonymous No.11958672
>>11958649
that's just how a turret should function
Anonymous No.11958701
>>11958541
>no examples
Try harder, kid.

>>11958496
The clue is in the name: Z-targeting. It's a targeting system, not a singular lock-on mechanic.
Anonymous No.11958712
get ready for an influx of really retarded zelda threads over the next few days, this one obviously didnt go as planned
Anonymous No.11958714 >>11958738 >>11958909 >>11958946 >>11958946 >>11958946 >>11958946
>>11958438
i see a primitive foray into the 3d medium, which has been surpassed in basically all metrics since then. as such, it is absurd to consider it "10/10, perfect, flawless, timeless masterpiece, best game ever made". incredible and arguably revolutionary at the time, but it has long been surpassed, much like the musket or the ford model T.

by all means like it, enjoy it, use/play it. but to claim that it is above reproach is just disingenuous and will fully ignorant. its blind zealotry.

grow up.
Anonymous No.11958716 >>11958946
>>11958464
maybe people should stop shitting up the board with zelda threads, especially undue dicksucking of it?
Anonymous No.11958726 >>11958738 >>11958964
>>11958539
How is somebody's age even remotely relevant? Why do you say it like it carries a negative connotation? Why dont you post a picture of your hands?
Anonymous No.11958738
>>11958714
>>11958726
Samefag.
Anonymous No.11958750 >>11958778
>grow up
Take your own advice. lmao >>11953383
Anonymous No.11958754
>eric lost
>eric got raped
>AGAIN
Anonymous No.11958770 >>11958780 >>11958782 >>11958946
>>11958570
>better systems like the precision of dual analog camera control
You cannot control the camera with an analog stick while hitting face buttons. Any game worth their salt will actually still adjust the camera angle to face the direction the player character is independent of the input of using the stick. This is one of the functions Z-targeting provided, that literally everyone ITT has failed to acknowledge in hundreds of comments.
Anonymous No.11958778 >>11958793
>>11958750
as opposed to contributing nothing but archive links and ad hom shitposts? do you keep the archive links bookmarked, or is there a little sticky note on your monitor frame? because your rage boner for an individual just because he critiqued your favorite game is infinitely more sad than someone casually posting on 4chan.
>but you're constantly raging about oot!
if you read that and interpret it as rage, you're a special kind of illiterate. but hey, at least i have something to say on an actual topic. all you have is seethe and grasping at straws to manifest some sort of personal attack. definitely far more sad.
Anonymous No.11958780
>>11958770
>You cannot control the camera with an analog stick while hitting face buttons.
>he doesnt claw
ngmi
Anonymous No.11958782
>>11958770
>>11958545
Anonymous No.11958783 >>11958796 >>11958804 >>11958807 >>11958836
>>11958609
>>11958615
>>11958647
>start with the signpost being locked on
>switch to the rock
>can't switch back to the signpost despite it being directly in front and closer than the other rock
>can only switch between the rocks
Switching between the targets Nintendo chose for you =/= being able to switch between all targets freely, better designed games since OoT even let you choose the direction meaning they aren't using OoT's clunky system, and you also failed to address the other points, you don't play games so please stop talking about them
Anonymous No.11958793
>>11958778
Don't you have to go to work in an hour or do you have Monday's off, manbaby?
Anonymous No.11958796 >>11958824
>>11958783
>extremely uncommon scenario
>actually betrays thoughtfulness in prioritization: player wants to target things they can interact with over things they can read.
>falseflagging as someone else for a bailey because he embarrassingly lost the motte already
>using a reposted webum to make the same argument that convinced no one the last time he posted it

the only post that's been switched here is the goal post my man, everyone knows you can usefully switch targets in oot, you're too blinded to see how your example actually shows it working well.
Anonymous No.11958804
>>11958783
This is literally genius game design
Anonymous No.11958807 >>11958837 >>11959109
>>11958783
Interesting point. OoT is built on the shoulders of giants like Mega Man Legends, Tomb Raider and Virtual On. Far from the first lock on system, it is merely one of many that saw it integrated into earlier games, and created a new iteration of it. It is streamlined for its own purpose but does have short comings in mechanical expression and as you're showing there, limiting player discretion for target prioritization.
Anonymous No.11958819
They were just really good at making it feel like it is by personifying it with an in universe justification, like they did with the camera in mario 64.
Anonymous No.11958824 >>11958828
>>11958796
>>using a reposted webum to make the same argument that convinced no one the last time he posted it
I literally made it 10 minutes ago

>everyone knows you can usefully switch targets in oot, you're too blinded to see how your example actually shows it working well.
Pray tell how is switching to the farther rock first more useful than switching to the closer one, and how is not allowing the lock on to go back to what it started on more useful, and how is not letting you target an informative signpost more useful than a literal rock, you have a puzzling definition of useful
Anonymous No.11958828 >>11958842 >>11958862
>>11958824
bullshit, i've seen it before on this very board.

it does let you, but in the peculiar and unlikely scenario you concocted, priority is given to the rock you can pick up and throw over the sign you can read.
Anonymous No.11958836
>>11958783
Nintendo put this there on purpose to acclimate you to the behavior of z-targeting cycling. It's counter-intuitive, but by placing this example so early in the game, they're offering the observant player a chance to learn how this counter-intuitive mechanic will behave later on when it matters.
Anonymous No.11958837 >>11958853
>>11958807
What's with midwits bringing up Virtual On? Might as well bring up Vortex for the SNES while you're at it.
Anonymous No.11958842
>>11958828
meanwhile, subsequent/modern games do it better.
Anonymous No.11958847 >>11958851 >>11958854
>>11948321 (OP)
It's bullshit how everyone talks about Nintendo games being so revolutionary, while stone-cold PS1 classics like Buzzo the Wombat and Slapjack the Polecat get completely overlooked in the retro games discourse. If you take one look at the N64 vs PS1 console sales, you can see that the PS1 is clearly the better console with better games. Thanks to the Nintendo cult dominating the discourse, we can't even discuss these other games.
Anonymous No.11958851 >>11958871 >>11958902
>>11958847
Every argument with Nintendo cultists always devolves into the same thing, "muh brand!", unsurprisingly they're almost always Americans who loyally buy Apple phones every year and look down on people who have green chat bubbles
Anonymous No.11958853 >>11958860 >>11958871
>>11958837
Midwittery is thinking it somehow doesn't count because it's activated with a jump. Consider this an opportunity to play the game and learn how it works.
Anonymous No.11958854
>>11958847
Salty Nintendo fanatic.
Anonymous No.11958860 >>11958871 >>11959156
>>11958853
I actually did play it unlike you. It activates temporarily when you shoot your gun to show the bullets homing in. Not to mention the game is a different genre.
Anonymous No.11958862 >>11958871
>>11958828
>bullshit, i've seen it before on this very board.
You're inventing boogeymen again anon, not good
Anonymous No.11958871
>>11958851
>>11958853
>>11958860
>>11958862
lmfao
Anonymous No.11958885 >>11958890 >>11958894 >>11958917
>>11948321 (OP)
Yes? Not only is its lock-on aspect is a massive improvement compared to earlier games, it's also used for more than just combat, like centering the camera. It's a fun and versatile system.
Anonymous No.11958890
>>11958885
>taking control away from the player = good
Nah
Anonymous No.11958894 >>11958903 >>11958913 >>11958914 >>11961605
>>11958885
MML is clearly made from a "by the books game design" soulless game theory, whereas you can tell the OoT developers put a lot of thought into their mechanics
Anonymous No.11958902
>>11958851
PALchads knew that the Master System, Mega Drive and PS1/2 were the only retro consoles worth owning
Anonymous No.11958903
>>11958894
Nintendo wrote the book on soulless game theory though
Anonymous No.11958909
>>11958714
It's a flawed masterpiece.
Anonymous No.11958913
>>11958230
Come on, Anon, aren't you going to call this guy >>11958894 out for making subjective judgements and assumptions? XD
Anonymous No.11958914 >>11958950
>>11958894
Nintendo games are epitome of bland game design, everything is always incredibly safe and uninteresting
Anonymous No.11958917
>>11958885
I miss when games were outdoing each other with innovations to gameplay instead of monetization. These games are one year apart.
Anonymous No.11958925
man this guy is really melting down, he's made separate threads on /v/ now lol
Anonymous No.11958946 >>11959035
And the cycle begins anew. Here came the juicy cope after a fresh session of seethe. The gears are running in overdrive to find any little thing, relevant or not, to nitpick.

>>11958563
>Mario 64 that arguably doesn't do as well as it could have for camera
This is absolutely true and it's relevant because SM64 and OoT were built on the same engine. There are some pretty bad camera issues in SM64 that do not exist in OoT at all. >>11958714
>10/10, perfect, flawless, timeless masterpiece, best game ever made
You keep saying this. I'm pretty sure you believe this is true at this point.
>>11958714
>like the musket or the ford model T
>>11958714
>it has long been surpassed
Wrong. Nintendo continued to model the 3D Zeldas after OoT's success and they're still making games just like OoT. In fact, they even modeled their Metroid series after it with Prime. Let's not forget about Dark Souls, either.
>>11958714
>to claim that it is above reproach is just disingenuous and will fully ignorant. its blind zealotry
You are unironically the only one in this thread that's making the claim.
>>11958716
>mockery and humiliation is undue dicksucking
Is that what that looks like to you?
>>11958770
>You cannot control the camera with an analog stick while hitting face buttons
You can in Wind Waker.
Anonymous No.11958950
>>11958914
>Even though I say this, I still come here to talk about them.
Anonymous No.11958964
>>11958726
I'm just holding up a mirror so you can do some self-reflection.
Anonymous No.11959035 >>11959113 >>11959491
>>11958946
>You keep saying this.
its been said for years and years, disingenuously voted at the top of gaming polls over and over too. again, by all means like something, but be real about it. "best game ever" is just stupid.
>Nintendo continued to model the 3D Zeldas after
who said anything about the general conceptual design or intent? future games far surpass it in a variety of metrics, while arguably bearing their own different flaws.
>You are unironically the only one in this thread that's making the claim.
and yet there are people arguing against any criticisms against it, and dismissing them as mere "opinions" lol. and on top of that, they willfully ignore or reject the concept that any advancement over oot has been made in any metric since then, and how that disqualifies it as a perfect, timeless product.
>mockery and humiliation is undue dicksucking
i never said that. once again you display poor literacy. i said to stop shitting up (flooding) the board with zelda threads, especially the ones that are just undue dicksucking (undue praise). maybe spelling it out more will get it through? i doubt it though. im sure you'll take some petty, personal issue with it, lol.
Anonymous No.11959094 >>11962651 >>11962947 >>11962961
>>11950953
Z-targeting doesn't actually switch between combat and movement abilities, or allow you to read/talk from a distance or on horseback. Those are separate gameplay optimizations designed around Z-targeting, which is really just:
>z-space oriented lock-on

That's it. Flight simulators like Red Baron had it long before OOT.
Anonymous No.11959105
>>11950579
No, but his question assumed that Nintendo's trademarked name for 3D-oriented spacial targeting was revolutionary, IE, invented by them, and it wasn't.
Anonymous No.11959109 >>11959124
>>11958807
Funny how no one pointed out the ChatGPT post
Anonymous No.11959113 >>11959228
>>11959035
It's looking more and more like you either don't understand the English language and/or you possess a mental illness or some form of developmental disability.
Anonymous No.11959114 >>11962021
>>11950624
>>11951307
It's amazing how butthurt nintendoids get what you point out facts.

Red Baron 3D had z-targeting before OOT.
Anonymous No.11959124
>>11959109
being on edge for shitposting terminators gets tiresome after the first dozen posts
Anonymous No.11959140 >>11959243
Wolfenstein 3D and Doom get all the credit for defining FPS gaming, but all they did was copy Maze War from the 1970s. Just don't tell that to the id cult.
Anonymous No.11959156
>>11958860
>the game is a different genre
Irrelevant.
Anonymous No.11959228 >>11959491 >>11959963
>>11959113
thank you for proving my point. you're very cute.
Anonymous No.11959243
>>11959140
No, they're actually ripoffs of Spacewar, since you shoot things.
Anonymous No.11959491
>>11959035
>>11959228
>Stop making threads I don't like!
Posts made by a 37 year old man btw.
Anonymous No.11959568
pong drew pixels...when u stop for 1 sec to think about it, nintendo didnt add so much to gaming after all.
Anonymous No.11959963
>>11959228
What's your point? That OoT is the best game ever? I love OoT and I haven't even wrote out how good OoT is as much as you have this whole thread. You're some kind of repressed, closeted OoT homo.
Anonymous No.11959981
>>11953383
Damn. This guy cares more about OoT and its fans than we do.
Anonymous No.11959998 >>11960094
>>11948321 (OP)
no it had been done on Simon the Sorcerer and multiple prior point and click adventures
Anonymous No.11960005
>>11950517
>The thing about games like SM64, OoT, MGS1, and RE4, is that their revolutionary nature is directly related to innovations that elevated 3D gaming as a whole.
>>11953125
>dude, exactly. to them, games have somehow never evolved at all since then, and anything before might as well not exist. the tunnel vision and zealotry is insane.


Good posts
Anonymous No.11960019
>>11953859
>Zelda 64 thread
https://youtu.be/evJEZJ7KsmI?feature=shared&t=142
Anonymous No.11960094
>>11959998
Imagine the teeth of the person mad enough to make this edit.
Anonymous No.11960797 >>11960802 >>11961040 >>11961092
well isn't the proposition of the retro board that modern games have lost their way? i suspect a number of us are here precisely because we DONT think games progressed very far after gen 5.
Anonymous No.11960802 >>11961050
>>11960797
>well isn't the proposition of the retro board that modern games have lost their way?
No.
Anonymous No.11961040 >>11961050
>>11960797
no, and nowhere is that written in rules or stickies. its just to talk about retro games, not specifically to put them on pedestals. dont be absurd.
Anonymous No.11961050 >>11961069 >>11961127
>>11960802
>>11961040
no im not saying its a rule...i just tend to find most people gravitate toward this board out of a sense that old games are better than new ones.
Anonymous No.11961061
When I was younger I didn't know about Z-targeting because pressing buttons looking forward with no enemies around just narrows the screen. Fights seemed more difficult when you didn't use it, not for aiming reasons but enemies don't wait their turn.
Anonymous No.11961069 >>11961092
>>11961050
I regularly see outlandish views here, and often the weirdos project them onto everybody else too
>everyone thinks this way
>no one thinks differently
>right guys?
Why is it so common here..
Anonymous No.11961080 >>11961094
>>11951142
Why are the models so sharp
Anonymous No.11961092
>>11960797
Yes. You are more or less correct.
>>11961069
He's right. Many of us are here because we love retro vidya and also abhor the execution of modern game design.
Anonymous No.11961094
>>11961080
>texture pack
Anonymous No.11961123
>>11955981
KINO
IMMACULATE
NOBLE
OMNIPOTENT
Anonymous No.11961127 >>11961167
>>11961050
The sentiment that older games are better than new ones is prevalent on this website in general
Anonymous No.11961128
>>11948472
>the megagelion fag is still crying over OoT
Lol
Also never forget he's exposed himself as a BotWshitter from /v/
Anonymous No.11961167
>>11961127
okay so it's not so far fetched that some could think z-targeting really did all the things a cinematic 3d camera system can/should do better/best compared to newer examples
Anonymous No.11961605
>>11958894
There wasn't anything by the books for 3D game design during 5th gen.
Anonymous No.11962021
>>11959114
>Red Baron 3D
Ripped off Contra III.
Anonymous No.11962651
>>11959094
and lastly, it locks onto enemies.
Anonymous No.11962947
>>11959094
>Z-targeting doesn't actually switch between combat and movement abilities, or allow you to read/talk from a distance or on horseback.
play the game
Anonymous No.11962961
>>11959094
Flight sims stole that from Space Harrier, neckbeard.
Anonymous No.11963057 >>11963174 >>11965252 >>11965980
>>11948321 (OP)
You see the black bars that appeat when you do? They're REDUCING your fov, meaning the game considers that what happens around you does not matter. What does that picture look like? A 2D fighting game. Z-targeting turns a 3D game wannabe into 2D. Remember when the original Zelda had Link face against hoards on foes on a single screen? How many times does OoT have you face more than 2 foes, and how many times one of them is not standing still watching you? Z-targeting is an immense regression literally showing us that things were going in the wrong direction.
Anonymous No.11963174
>>11963057
>Remember when the original Zelda had Link face against hoards on foes on a single screen?
Kek you got a good imagination.
My first thought was octoroks shooting shit wherever randomly and goblins jacking off in the distance
Anonymous No.11965154
>>11948417
Seethe harder.
Anonymous No.11965185
Kill yourself you necrobumping nigger.
Anonymous No.11965252 >>11967450
>>11963057
sounds like zelda just isn't for you, mate
Anonymous No.11965316 >>11965318 >>11965383 >>11965980 >>11966976
>>11948321 (OP)
Z targeting was just lock on targeting marketed by Nintendo. Mouths will scream, "but oots z targeting did more than lock on, it forced you to hop around in a circle like true irl combat". This is the one thing Nintendo added. Locking on to an enemy in itself was not knew or revolutionary, it was the locked in combat movement of z targeting that people coomed over. I think it's an awesome mechanic that never got used to it's full potential. The best part is fighting those lizards on the platforms between lava in that one dungeon. It makes you realize how much they fucked up by not having more difficult and intense fighting patterns. Having only one enemy attack you at a time is a tease and that pisses me off everytime I replay oot.
Anonymous No.11965318
>>11965316
New*
Anonymous No.11965383 >>11965391 >>11965484
>>11965316
>It makes you realize how much they fucked up by not having more difficult and intense fighting patterns. Having only one enemy attack you at a time is a tease and that pisses me off everytime I replay oot.
its almost like the combat and enemy ai are flawed/primitive and have since been improved upon by other games.
Anonymous No.11965387
ITT: Autists learn what patents are
Anonymous No.11965391 >>11965457
>>11965383
Yeah, and that's besides my point. It didn't have to be that way. As other anon has stated, "remember Zelda 1 and how you got ass raped by all the enemies on the screen" to paraphrase. Why couldn't they do that with oot? I think it's one of the reasons many here call it a baby game. In comparison to loz and taol and to an extent alttp, oots difficulty is reduced significantly. It's a great casual game to play when you're sick and want to feel comfy, loz is not.
Anonymous No.11965457 >>11965468
>>11965391
>Why couldn't they do that with oot?
probably because it was really new stuff. like i said, a primitive foray into 3d. nintendo also has a way of really focusing and simplifying things. batman's freeflow combat is still a ways off in 2009 (and also demon's souls that year).
Anonymous No.11965468 >>11965484 >>11965660
>>11965457
No, sm64 is still held as one of the best 3d platformers and it is. You're defending nothing and not even trying to counter my other points. Loz was one of the very first games of its kind and and it's still classic and hard as balls in late game. This was done on purpose, there was a shift from nes to snes, where Nintendo honed in on the family friendly console gimmick. This was done again from SNES to N64 and N64 to GameCube and then solidified in the Wii. Each generation of Nintendo console became more family oriented and kid friendly. This is why I think oot got a difficulty reduction. Look at oots successor, a literal chibi Zelda game with cartoon graphics. Nintendo shat out toilet princess to try and appease the fair portion of fans that felt betrayed by the infantilization of link. Zelda never came back to basics, but became a simulacrum of its former self, with the newest iterations being wind waker but on land, tinged with the elder scrolls. Pretending to pay homage to its roots.
Anonymous No.11965484
>>11965383
OOT gets its credit because it was a great implementation at the time, but it itself became a giant whose shoulders later games stand on.
>>11965468
Funny thing is that Wind Waker, even though it's still piss-easy, fixes OOT's combat by making enemies still attack even when you're not targeting them. They even drop weapons. Makes it more like the samurai movies that inspired the system in the first place.
Anonymous No.11965660 >>11966992
>>11965468
>sm64 is still held as one of the best 3d platformers and it is
yes, by delusion zealots. theres a pattern where people overhype and overvalue n64 games. mario64, oot, goldeneye, etc. mario holds up better than most, largely due to its simplicity and good execution on it, but later games are far better.

but anyway, you're right in the nintendo used to have a reputation of games being "nintendo hard", and they have consistently stepped away from that and babied everything down. in terms of difficulty and enemy threat, i definitely think that later zelda games are better/harder in that regard. as such, i dont think it was entirely nintendo trying to just "make it for kids", but that they were just so focused on the gimmick of 3d and making that simply WORK (and be accessible/understandable to people) that they didnt worry about complexities. so much of the game is spent getting you used to the controls and the concept of 3d in general.
>Zelda never came back to basics
when you actually take a good hard look at zelda (or most of the big franchises really), almost every game is extremely different from the others, and focusing on some gimmick or other. not sure how to "characterize" loz, but its its own thing. zelda 2 is 2d platformer. lttp has active items and a new perspective. oot has the gimmick of 3d (and arguably the time travel aspect). ww has sailing. tp has wolf shit. ss has waggle shit and gay birds. botw/totk has open world and weapons. honestly, i dont know much about the handhelds, but i do know in general, very few zelda games are similar. even lbw, which uses lttp's map, has its own gimmicks to separate it (wall/painting shit, and item borrowing). you can notice similar focuses on gimmicks with mario and sonic as well. companies are terrified of ever putting out the same game twice. not even "same game, but more of it and more refined". they NEED to have the games FOCUS on some gimmick that redefines the gameplay.
Anonymous No.11965661
>>11948321 (OP)
>considering most people who talk about Ocarina of Time only mention the lock-on targeting aspect of Z-Targeting?
what?
Anonymous No.11965980
>>11963057
>They're REDUCING your fov, meaning the game considers that what happens around you does not matter.

>>game introduces visual element that signals close combat has priority
>>game is programmed so that stuff not visible during close combat isn't significant isn't relative to the player
>>this is bad game design

>>11965316
>It makes you realize how much they fucked up by not having more difficult and intense fighting patterns

zelda is a game for children. if you want z-targeting, limited movement, and more intense fighting patterns with multiple aggressors, you want to wait a few years for the industry to shift to more mature audiences and for nintendo's influence to seep through lower tier developers until some tards at fromsoft figure out how to reverse engineer z-targeting into a game like dark souls
Anonymous No.11966538
>>11948321 (OP)
Sort of?
I find a lot of nostalgia reviewers address OoT Z-targeting as some sort of "revolutionary" feature that forever changed the landscape of 3D gaming. Which would be an exaggeration.
If you want a true example of industry-changing mechanics, look at Halo Combat Evolved on the original XBOX. It basically standardized dual-analog stick first person shooters.
Z-targeting is a neat feature that has retroactively preserved Ocarina and Majora's controls into the modern era when many other games from that generation and console have aged poorly. The N64 control is shit by modern standards. But Ocarina holds up nontheless because of shitty controler induced z-targeting
Anonymous No.11966976
>>11965316
>Having only one enemy attack you at a time
MM changes this. I wouldn't be surprised if Master Quest does, too. Besides, it's totally limited to anthropomorphic duelists like Wolfos, Stalfos and Lizalfos.
Anonymous No.11966992 >>11967616
>>11965660
>very few zelda games are similar
Except for the fact they all have the same characters, story elements, worldbuilding, items, control scheme, etc. Yeah, otherwise they're totally different and full of gimmicks, aren't they!
Anonymous No.11967450
>>11965252
>sounds like aonumaslop just isn't for you
FTFY
Anonymous No.11967616
>>11966992
reusing names for character and places is pretty irrelevant. its like the bare minimum for keeping it a franchise. almost none of the game affect each other (very few are close enough to actually be DIRECT sequels, like botw and totk) and the timeline literally doesnt matter. even nintendo doesnt give a shit about the timeline, and they admit to putting it in the backseat when developing things. hitting the same story beats of "unassuming kid, goes on quest to save the princess/kingdom, the bad guy is ganon" isnt really saying much, and again is like part of the bare minimum to make it a franchise. the actual GAMES are wildly different, and you have to be a disingenuous, willfully ignorant cunt to think otherwise.