Thread 11954837

Currently looking into this. There seems to be *way* too many options to even understand where to start.
Addons?
SNAC?
Controller ompatability?
List of supported systems?
Analog I/O?
SDRAM?
MiSTer Hub?

Can someone please explain to me what the fuck I will be needing? I want to:

1. Play Sega Mega Drive, using original 6 button controllers.
2. Play PS1, using original dualshocks.
3. Maybe a bit of SNES, don't own any controllers. Could I use my Xbone controller?
4. Neo Geo, using actual Neo Geo sticks.
5. Output video via HDMI and use the built-in CRT filters (can't afford the RetroTink 4k just yet).

What do I need to get these use cases up and running? Where do I buy my stuff?
It's just too much...

>>11954837 (OP)
>1. Play Sega Mega Drive, using original 6 button controllers.
Use a USB adapter or SNAC.

>2. Play PS1, using original dualshocks.
Use a USB adapter or SNAC.

>3. Maybe a bit of SNES, don't own any controllers. Could I use my Xbone controller?
Use whatever controller you want.

>4. Neo Geo, using actual Neo Geo sticks.
Use a USB adapter or SNAC.

>5. Output video via HDMI and use the built-in CRT filters (can't afford the RetroTink 4k just yet).
Plug in an HDMI cable, the port for which you can see in your picture. Once in game go to the menu and select a shader.

Github and wikis have all the supported systems, info on SNAC, SDRAM, hubs and everythign else. Google and read, it's really not that complicated.

>>11954837 (OP)

get a Mister pi Mega. preassembled with ram/analog out, and usb hub, and already has a working sd card, also probably the cheapest option until clones become more widespread. You'll have to wait for the next batch of orders though.

every controller question can be usb, or will need a snac adapter to use originals as above.

>>11954837 (OP)
All you need is the pre-built MiSTer, you can use misteraddons, but I think the SS One is probably the cheaper option now, but that doesn't come out for a while.

For controller, unless you are autistic about OG hardware, you can just use a DualSense or DS4 or basically any controller in existence.

You don't need retrotink, all misters can output to both CRT with component, as well as 4kTV with no additional latency added. Composite and S-video have slightly more limited support, but you can do them too, just look it up.

>>11955026
Oh also make sure to use the update_all script and also get the script that allows you to change ini settings from the mister itself.

Make sure you use low lag mode from settings, other modes add 1-2 frames input lag for no real benefit

Also for some reason "clean HDMI" setting on N64 core adds 2 frames of lag unstated (only core like this), so don't use that, only found this out recently lol

>>11955028
>other modes add 1-2 frames input lag for no real benefit
The benefit is not seeign the scaler flickering when switching resolutions, common with PS1 and Saturn.

>"clean HDMI" setting on N64 core adds 2 frames of lag unstated
Source for that? Nothings being buffered so that sounds like bs.

>>11955086
>Source for that? Nothings being buffered so that sounds like bs.
Test it, believe it. I was surprised too

>>11955128
Unfounded bullshit, as I thought.

>>11955145
Retard, literally just take your cellphone and record yourself pressing a button in front of the TV with setting on vs off and compare how long the action takes to show from button press. Most phones have 120 or 240fps slow-mo, but even just 60fps recording will be obvious

God, you're a lazy sack of shit idiot.

>>11955157
Retard, the image going to the scaler isn't being buffered, the latency is exactly the same. Muh phone test lol, what a moron.

>>11955207
>reality and real world results don't matter because [ignorant technobabble]
Retard, it is what is. Accept it or live in denial of easily testable reality

>>11954837 (OP)
Zsnes on a 15 year old office PC.

>>11955212
I'm going to DM the core dev on Discord and laugh at how dim you are, they love shit like this.

>>11955229
>am I wrong?
>No, reality itself is wrong because it doesn't conform to my limited and ignorant view of it
I *really* hope you're trolling here, otherwise you're an absolute fucking moron.

But yes, let him know, so he can test it, and then hopefully fix it.

I really don't even know why we're even having this argument, you can easily tell the difference just by feel going back and fort. That's how I noticed initially, thought to test it, and sure enough, it adds a shit ton of input lag for no good reason.

>>11954837 (OP)
>There seems to be *way* too many options to even understand where to start.
Not really, it's all more or less the same thing, just generally in a different layout.

Most are all build around a Terasic DE-10 Nano board:
https://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=1046

That's the board you see in the middle of your image.

Technically all you need is that board and the software on a MicroSD card, though many of the cores require a SDRAM module to work (You can see that plugged into the left of the DE-10 in your image), but with the DE-10 and a RAM module alone you can run all MiSTer cores and games on them.

Others have seen made their own versions of the DE-10 board for cheaper, such as QM Tech and Taki. (Personally I don't recommend QM Tech since they changed some stuff around that breaks compatibility with other's accessories)

The rest are technically optional depending on if you want to make it more convenient to use, have more features, or connect it to an analog display.

The board on the bottom is a USB hub, not much different from any a hub you might pick up from an electronics store, it's just made to fit exactly with the DE-10 under it (And in Taki's version, it has a header that it plugs directly unto underneath the DE-10 so you don't need to use a coupler to connect it). The board on the top is usually an Analog I/O board, it allows you to output analog signals like VGA, composite, component, RGB, s-video, etc as well as a place to install a cooling fan, has a few buttons for ease of use, and contains the user/SNAC port. There is a Digital I/O board too but practically nobody uses those, they are fairly useless (The DE-10 already has HDMI built in). Technically, there IS a way to get analog out of the HDMI port and not need an Analog I/O board, but it has it's own list of cons going that route and you lose the user port/fan.

Adding a $5 USB WiFi/Bluetooth is also commonly recommended.
(continued)

>>11954837 (OP)
>>11955275
Beyond that, anything else is VERY optional that most people don't bother with, like the audio input (which is included on some Analog I/O board now built in) that is just for using your original cassettes with the PC cores, or for some spinner controllers. Or an RTC module that just keeps track of the time while the system is off (it still gets the time automatically from the internet on boot, and is mostly just to keep logs/saves organized, and some RTC-enabled games).

Some have basically taken all of these components and put them into a single all-in-one board such as the Multisystem 2. Others have created boards you plug the DE-10 into that let you do things like mount it in a computer case or an arcade cabinet.

As for controllers, if you don't care about original controllers you can use any standard USB (Or Bluetooth if you get a WiFi/BT adapter) controller. You can also use original controllers though the user port using devices called SNAC. They are very very simple and basic devices that let you plug your original controllers into the user port. Note that SNAC adapters are NOT USB ADAPTERS and the user port is NOT A USB PORT despite looking like one. You can cause damage if you plug standard USB devices into it or a SNAC adapter into a USB port.

The user port connects directly to the FPGA chip on the DE-10, it basically plugs the controllers (or other accessories like a Gameboy link port) electronically into the simulated system on the FPGA in the same way they would have been wired on the original hardware. This gives the benefit of introducing zero additional latency (Standard USB would add latency) and work with just about any original accessory (Many USB adapters tend to have problems with 3rd party controllers or other accessories that plugged into the controller port, like light guns or steering wheels).
(continued)

>>11954837 (OP)
>>11955280
For what you will need, at the very least a DE-10 and 128MB RAM module, though I would highly recommend at least the USB hub and Analog board as well, this is the most common setup, some refer to it as the "sandwich". If you want it to look nice or keep the dust out you can get a case for it too. There are many pre-assembled ones like this, such as the Mister Pi from Taki (Though assembly is literally just plugging about 5 parts into each other, it's very simple)

If you want to use original controllers you will need SNAC adapters for the systems. Each system has it's own SNAC adapter (Though a few can be used across others, such as the SNES adapter to use SNES controllers on a NES, and I am pretty sure the Genesis one will work for Atari 2600). Note that for any system other than the PS1 or N64 you will need a Level Shifter. Most of the cheaper SNAC adapters will not come with one on-board, but most places selling SNAC adapters will sell the level shifter too. You will need it for any system that ran on 5 Volts (pretty much anything other than PS1 and N64) instead of 3.3v to not risk damage. It's a tiny thing you will plug into the SNAC port first then plug said SNAC adapter into that. (That's what the long adapter you see on the right of this image is, though there is a new version that's much smaller)

>>11955287
>If you want to use original controllers you will need SNAC adapters for the systems.
SNAC will give you original hardware latency, but aren't the only way to use origianl controllers.

>>11955312
Ok, by "need" I didn't mean it's the only way, but it would be the easiest and generally cheapest and usually best way on a MiSTer. Yes you would use standard USB adapters like I mentioned, but those would cost more, are not as compatible, and would introduce latency. There's really no benefit to using those on a MiSTer over using a SNAC adapter unless you already have a USB adapter and can't afford a cheap SNAC adapter... yet can afford a MiSTer just fine.

>>11955319
>cheapest and usually best way on a MiSTer.
Nah, everyone I see on Discord says just buy reflex adapt instead, no one notices the difference in latency and you still get to map buttons for menus etc. SNAC isn't worth it.

>>11955312
Ok, by "need" I didn't mean it's the only way, but it would be the easiest and generally cheapest and usually best way on a MiSTer. Yes you could use standard USB adapters meant for PCs or other devices like I mentioned, but those would cost more, are not as compatible, and would introduce latency. There's really no benefit to using those on a MiSTer over using a SNAC adapter unless you already have a USB adapter and can't afford a cheap SNAC adapter... yet can afford a MiSTer just fine.

>>11955325
>reflex adapt
How is that cheaper? The base unit ALONE costs $50 when you can get SNAC adapters for a fraction of that, and that's not counting that you need adapters for each controller for the reflex, and by each I mean if you want 2 players for SNES you need TWO adapters. Meanwhile you can get an N64 SNAC adapter that has all 4 controller ports for $10-20, less if you get it as a DIY kit can are capable of soldering a handful of very large connections together that would be on a soldering course's first lesson. Reflex is not even the best such option for MiSTer, SNAX and SNAX64 have more features.

The ONLY benefit Reflex has is that you can use it on PC too, while it has a mountain of cons over just using standard SNAC, or SNACX/64 if you want to get fancy and have money to burn.

Literally never seen people recommend it over just a SNAC adapter on the discord.

>>11955341
>The ONLY benefit Reflex has is that you can use it on PC too,
Use any controlller on any core, can still access menus and other MiSter functions.

>Literally never seen people recommend it over just a SNAC adapter on the discord.
I have, hence me saying as much.

>>11955350
>Use any controlller on any core
Why would you want to, say use a SNES controller on a Genesis core or vice-versa?

>can still access menus and other MiSter functions.
Only because it's acting like a standard USB controller, just... use a USB controller? Or use MiSTer remote like I do if you are only going to use the USB part for menu navigation.

>>11955368
You asked for benefits, I gave you some, stop waffling you tool.

>>11955374
And trying to say you can do things like use a SNES controller on Genesis or N64 controller on Turbografix with this overpriced accessory as a "benefit" isn't waffling? You can do that with any USB adapter too, and usually those are cheaper than even the base unit, before even adding the cost of the controller adapters for said base unit.

>>11955028
>>11955086

the benefit is also mainly compatability. the default is 100% compatible on any hdmi tv. the 2 low/lower lag options may not work on certain TV's, though modern tv's should be fine.

>>11955389
You don't need adapters for USB... SNAC is just a zero latency way to use OEM controllers just like original hardware. But you can still use just about any USB or BT controller in existence, with the lowest possible lag they support.

>>11955275
>>11955280
>>11955287

Man, thank you so much! This is very informative and helpful!


>Most are all build around a Terasic DE-10 Nano
I guess I was a bit confused. We had used the DE-1 board for school and I might have confused the numbers.


>require a SDRAM module to work (You can see that plugged into the left of the DE-10 in your image),
Is the RAM board nr 2 from the left on the top row?


>The board on the bottom is a USB hub, not much different from any a hub you might pick up from an electronics store,
Ah, so no magic. Cool.
I've done some more browsing and searching now and it seems that all SNAC controller ports thingies are USB adapters. Sure, that's kinda cheap & convenient, but it certainly isn't sturdy. I searched a bit but didn't find much;
Is there a board, like the USB hub, but which instead provides a bunch of controller ports? To make it more console-like.


>RTC module
Right, I'm so used to deal with actual MCUs that I forget that stock ARM CPUs don't come with an RTC peripheral.


>a single all-in-one board such as the Multisystem 2
I must say that at least they get the console look. It seems a lot sturdier than flimsy USB-to-controller adapters.
https://shop.heber.co.uk/2-port-snes-snac-cartridge-for-multisystem-with-black-enclosure/


>This gives the benefit of introducing zero additional latency (Standard USB would add latency)
Ah, yes, I thought it might have with USB. So cool, no latency because the USB is just fake news anyway.


>I would highly recommend at least the USB hub and Analog board as well
So the analog board would be 60 USD for 3 push buttons? I mean, that's fine by me. I'm guessing I would mostly benefit from putting a fan on my system. This seems to be the "best" of these, no?
https://misteraddons.com/products/mister-fpga-io-direct
It allows me to power the IO board, the DE-10 Nano and the USB hub through a single USB port, no?

>>11955368
>>Use any controlller on any core
>Why would you want to, say use a SNES controller on a Genesis core or vice-versa?
I don't own a Sega MD arcade stick, mostly because the ones that exist kinda suck.
What I DO have are Dreamcast arcade which I've slaughtered internally to put in DB-15 connectors, basically turning them into Neo Geo controllers. So if I load up an arcade-like title with MD core, say Alien Soldier, it would be nice if I could be using my Neo Geo style sticks to play the game.

>>11954837 (OP)
mister is a joke, shit can't even emulate a commodore 64 or the sid chip. dont be conned into getting one by all the people itt who spent a lot of money on shit a crap dell computer from 2008 can do better

>>11955578
Some fast & loose googling seems to show that C64 is fine:
https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/1kewa92/how_do_people_in_here_feel_about_the_mister_fpga/

>>11955389
>You can do that with any USB adapter too

Reflex adapt has lower latency than the vast majority of usb adapters, which in most cases are only built to support a single type of controller, like raphnet. We've gone from "can't afford a cheap SNAC adapter... yet can afford a MiSTer just fine." to "How is that cheaper" and whining about cost lol. One minute price doesn't matter, next it does lmao.

>>11955578

>poorfag cope

and its not even that expensive anymore so REAL poor.

>>11955536
>I guess I was a bit confused. We had used the DE-1 board for school and I might have confused the numbers.
Yeah, not the same thing. Even the DE-10 Standard and DE-10 Nano are quite different

>Is the RAM board nr 2 from the left on the top row?
The one with one rectangular chip? Yes, but there are multiple designs. I believe most modern ones will have two surface mount chips on them like this one, but there are ones with one or four. There were also ones smaller than 128MB but there's little point to that now even if 128 is overkill. The only use people have these days for the smaller ones is if they wanted to forego the analog board for dual-RAM (It's not about adding capacity, it's about adding speed, hence why some if they have an older small ram module lying around would use it for that).

>and it seems that all SNAC controller ports thingies are USB adapters
Vast majority are, a small handful of custom designs use HDMI port, and Multisystem uses it's own port. But they are electronically the same thing even if they use different shaped ports.

>Sure, that's kinda cheap & convenient, but it certainly isn't sturdy.
It's generally recommended to have a very short (as in around 3-6in) USB3 cable for that reason, takes strain off the port. SNAC can be VERY picky if you extend it though so generally there are lists of what cables have been tested to work, and many places that sell MiSTer accessories have guaranteed to work SNAC extension cables.

>Is there a board, like the USB hub, but which instead provides a bunch of controller ports? To make it more console-like.
There are people who made custom MiSTer setups like that, but you would need to provide some sort of way to switch which set are currently connected to the SNAC port. Again, it's not an actual USB port, you can't treat it like one, that includes splitting it through a hub.

>>11955536
>>11956081
>So cool, no latency because the USB is just fake news anyway.
No ADDED latency, many consoles had latency on different aspects. The whole point is that unlike software emulation and USB adapters there will be no additional latency added on top of what the original hardware had. It doesn't remove any latency the original hardware may have had.

>So the analog board would be 60 USD for 3 push buttons?
3 buttons, 3.5mm audio out, VGA port that can be broken out into just about any analog connector (composite, s-video, composite, scart, etc) second MicroSD port (though this is obsolete and was only for special use cases in the past), SNAC port, fan header, and option (or included) for 3.5mm aux-in for PC cores that could load data from a cassette tape.

The one you linked is a bit different, it relies on that alternate method I mentioned that pushes analog through the HDMI port meant to make it possible to go dual-RAM. (There are not enough I/O pins to do both at once, you either have to use the second set of pins for a second RAM module, or for analog) Look for the ones that have an additional L-shaped adapter like this one.

That's the latest revision of the Analog I/O board. Personally, I would try to get your setup from Taki if you can wait for when they get another batch in, his site is https://retroremake.co/ though you can of course get the QM Tech one (Though I don't recommend that one) or just buy the original DE-10 straight from Terasic if you have the money/don't want to wait and buy all the other components from the various MiSTer accessory sites yourself.

Taki's version has some nice improvements over the standard DE-10 that I like such as using USB-C for power instead of a barrel jack connector (which requires you to split to power a full sandwich setup) and having a USB header for it's USB board so you don't have to use an awkward coupler-like connector externally.

>>11956081
>>11955536

Actually, wait, by "a bunch of controller ports" did you mean for multiple different systems, or multiple ports for the same system like the original console had?

>>11956081
>>11956087
>>11956106

>It's not about adding capacity, it's about adding speed
Ah, so maybe if there were system cores with higher clock speeds that needed it. Like the Dreamcast or similar, then it would be needed. Okay, a normal 128MB module it is then.

>a small handful of custom designs use HDMI port
This would be the "Reflex" type? https://misteraddons.com/collections/control/products/reflex-adapt

>It's generally recommended to have a very short (as in around 3-6in) USB3 cable for that reason, takes strain off the port. SNAC can be VERY picky if you extend it though
As a general rule from the embedded world (working with RPi sized boards) your signals are usually fine until you reach the megahertz range. For anything above 1MHz you'll get a bunch of signal noise introduced unless you're careful with shielding and conductor length.

>you would need to provide some sort of way to switch which set are currently connected to the SNAC port
Right, right. This isn't emulation. When the hardware actually polls the controller then the signal pretty much goes uninterrupted to the controller device, as it would have done on real hardware. And a NES controller responds differently than a Saturn one.

>The one you linked is a bit different, it relies on that alternate method I mentioned that pushes analog through the HDMI port meant to make it possible to go dual-RAM.
But that's the HDMI port on the I/O board that gets fucked, right? The HDMI on the DE-10 board will still work as normally would, no?

Okay, so let me get this straight... When it comes to the original form factor, compatible with USB hubs and I/O boards the options are
* Original DE-10 Nano @ 225 USD
* MiSTer Pi by Taki Udon @ 125 USD
* QM Tech board @ 130 USD

of these the MiSTer Pi seems to be the best hardware (as you mentioned with the USB-C power).

If I were to go for alternate form factors then I can choose
* SuperStation @ 180 USD
* MiSTer Multisystem2 @ 340 USD

(cont)

>>11956081
>>11956087
>>11956106

Of these two the SuperStation looks the cleanest. And it comes with PS1 controller connectors built-in, which is a nice plus.
Does that seem to cover the purchasing options currently available?

>Actually, wait, by "a bunch of controller ports" did you mean for multiple different systems, or multiple ports for the same system like the original console had?
I think when I wrote that I was maybe thinking of a solution sort of like the SuperStation but maybe other options than PS1 controller ports. Now that I looked a bunch, and that you helped me, the options that are actually available to me is a lot clearer.

I was thinking of another thing. So the USB hub connectors isn't actually *real* usb connectors, but the connectors on the main board are, right? I was thinking, if I'm not being too picky maybe I could use an 8bitdo controller for some of the games. That's doable, right?

>>11956516
>Ah, so maybe if there were system cores with higher clock speeds that needed it.
I believe it's mostly used to store the ROMs but yeah, it's also used as working RAM for some of the cores. Keep in mind that the DE-10 itself has 1GB of DDR3 on it. The problem is that RAM is shared with the CPU so it can get in the way of the core in the FPGA accessing it. That's actually part of the reason the 5th gen cores have a few memory timing inaccuracies, though dual-RAM helps for Saturn.

>This would be the "Reflex" type?
Also SNAX or SNAX64
https://misteraddons.com/products/snax
https://misteraddons.com/products/snax64

From my understanding practically the only difference between SNAX and SNAX64 is that the 64 supports up to 4 controllers for consoles that normally had more than 2 controller ports on them. (This won't give you more than 2 controller ports on consoles that only had 2 though)

>As a general rule from the embedded world (working with RPi sized boards) your signals are usually fine until you reach the megahertz range.
Majority of those old controllers were not sending digital data through the controller ports.

>But that's the HDMI port on the I/O board that gets fucked, right? The HDMI on the DE-10 board will still work as normally would, no?
Notice that HDMI-to-HDMI connector in the images of that IO board? You need to couple the HDMI port of the DE-10 to the HDMI port of that Analog board. Basically you are giving up HDMI to get analog while that board is plugged in to be able to have both analog and dual-ram at the same time. The other analog board I posted allows both HDMI and Analog at the same time, but you can't do dual-RAM. You actually can remove that L-shaped part I mentioned to use dual-RAM, but then it basically becomes a Digital-only IO board.

>It allows me to power the IO board, the DE-10 Nano and the USB hub through a single USB port, no?
Taki's lets you do that, the Terasic and QM boards require a split barrel jack power cable.

>>11956523
SuperStation is another great one, and it has an optional dock that adds a CD drive to play your physical disks, more USB ports, and a M.2 slot.

But that PSX port you mentioned, it's basically hard wired to the SNAC port, so you can't use other SNAC adapters with it. At least, last I checked. Though last I checked that dock used to not be able to play your CD games directly and could only dump them, but now it can, so no idea if that also changed too.
>So the USB hub connectors isn't actually *real* usb connectors, but the connectors on the main board are, right?
Yes, all the other USB-shaped ports are actual USB ports, the SNAC/user port is the only one that is shaped like USB but is something else.


Though the micro-usb port on the side is normally used to connect to the hub, and on Terasic or QM's boards you would use a micro-usb-to-micro-usb connector to connect to the USB hub, on Taki's it uses a header on the bottom of the DE-10, but the MicroUSB port is still there to connect it to USB hubs without the header, so I am pretty sure you can't use that MicroUSB port if you have it connected by the header. Also IIRC two of the USB ports on the hub are power-only, but other than that, yeah.

>>11956663
>Keep in mind that the DE-10 itself has 1GB of DDR3 on it
Ah, so THAT'S where any CDs get stored. I was thiking about that. Like, how the fuck does the PS1 core make it all work with just 128MB. Well, now it makes sense :)

>>This would be the "Reflex" type?
>Also SNAX or SNAX64
I was looking at this
https://misteraddons.com/products/reflex-adapt?_pos=2&_psq=reflex&_ss=e&_v=1.0
but apparently this seems to be an example use:
SNES controller <--> SNAC with HDMI adapter <--> Reflex thingy <--> *actual* USB connection <--> computer/MiSTer
It seems odd that this device wouldn't add latency, as it adds an abstraction layer. Maybe that *real* USB is optional and ignored if you're using fake news USB with a MiSTer.

>old controllers were not sending digital data
Almost all of them send the button presses in a serial fashion. How is that not digital...?

>Notice that HDMI-to-HDMI connector in the images of that IO board?
Uhm... no? Not at all :(

>SuperStation is another great one
Yeah, the actual choice seems to be between the Superstation and the MiSTer Pi.

>PSX port you mentioned, it's basically hard wired to the SNAC port
Exactly what I suspected.

I found this and it annoyingly says "Reflex Adapt ONLY" for Neo Geo.
https://misteraddons.com/products/hdmi-controller-adapters?_pos=1&_sid=26f41ea3c&_ss=r&variant=40250232864901
This seems quite annoying... I understand why; SNAC can't deal with 10 parallel data signals, so it HAS to be serialized.
Well, I'll only be using a few cores with my joysticks, so any mapping stuff I could probably do manually. It'll be Neo Geo, IGS PGM and CPS2, and that's about it. And maybe I'll play some In the Hunt every now and again, to have a look at the origins of Metal Slug.

>>11956910
The reflex isn't the HDMI type, although it uses them. Bliss-box was the original HDMI thing, and you can get USB to HDMI SNAC to turn the USB port into a HDMI port to use those converters instead.

Reflex is just a USB controller adapter in a box, the same kind of thing you get if you buy say, a Playstation to USB adapter for a PC, only it uses the SNAC converters so you don't need a new converter for every controller because it detects what you have plugged in based on the pinout. Obviously you still need a converter for every controller, but the idea of the product is that people already have a lot of SNAC converters for their MiSTer, so this lets them run them via regular USB on a PC. Note the difference between converter and adapter, which here I'm using to describe the difference between converters, which take the pinout of the controller and simply modify its arrangement (you want the power and ground on pins 1 and 9 respectively, so that's what the converter board does, as well as arranging all the other datalines) and adapters which take the pinout of the controller and interpret it so that it can be passed over the USB game controller specification.

In terms of latency, that's because of how consoles actually interpret controller data to begin with, which is accurate via SNAC. Accurate doesn't mean latency free, many consoles have pretty laggy inputs. For example, the SNES has 2-3 frames of input latency on original hardware, due to how the system polls the controllers. This is accurate over SNAC, but not accurate over something like reflex on a PC emulator, reflex will be faster and have a lower input delay. Well, depending on your USB routing and CPU overhead, PCs can be tricky like that, 1000hz at the port doesn't always mean 1ms delay.

>>11957086
After much considerations I've come to realize that I actually only want to play with the PDP Versus gamepad (see pic) and with my modded Dreamcast sticks (DB-15).
So maybe this will make me be able to circumvent much of the SNAC nonsense completely...?
I found this: https://gp2040-ce.info
Maybe I can use this and build some sort of adapters for my sticks, and thereby just use them like any other controller.
This would make not have to care about Reflex or SNAX or any of that stuff at all.

I would get the USB hub though, because for PS1 I don't have a good replacement. And in some box somewhere I have a NegCon.

I assume the MiSTer will be able to override game controller polling with USB controller data...?

>>11957250
Yeah, USB is easier than SNAC because you don't need to change converters when you swap systems, everything "just werks".

The biggest reason for using SNAC is if you really like using accurate controllers and don't already have a bunch of USB adapters, (I've used a NeGcon through a cheap USB adapter before with no issues on PC) or if you want to use console accurate light guns which are very timing sensitive.

>>11956910
>Ah, so THAT'S where any CDs get stored.
I am about 90% sure that's just a joke

>https://misteraddons.com/products/reflex-adapt?_pos=2&_psq=reflex&_ss=e&_v=1.0
Yeah, it's some tuned device to try to reduce latency as much as possible specifically for controllers, but at the end of the day it is still just a USB adapter (and does not use the SNAC port IIRC) so it's not going to be as low latency and not as compatible as s SNAC adapter. It has it's advantages and disadvantages but I prefer to just use SNAC.

Main advantage I would say is that it lets you navigate the MiSTer menus (you can't do that with a controller connected through the SNAC port. You need a USB/Bluetooth controller, keyboard, or have the remote script running to control the menu over a PC or phone). Since I have a USB controller connected anyway since I neither have nor want a SNAC adapter for literally every console ever made I just use that for menus, though the remote script is also useful, especially since it can do things like launch a specific game instantly.

>Almost all of them send the button presses in a serial fashion. How is that not digital...?
IIRC some of them have inputs based on voltage measurement, not an expert on this, but it allows for more than just simply connecting controllers. E.G. you can connect MIDI devices (or a MiDi simulator called an MT-32Pi) to the PC cores that support it.

>Yeah, the actual choice seems to be between the Superstation and the MiSTer Pi.
I would say the Multisystem 2 is also worth considering. The Multisystem and Superstation are more sort of a consolsized all-in-one, but the MiSTer Pi is basically the base design that lets you experiment the most and be most compatible with standard accessories if you like to tinker and upgrade.

>I found this and it annoyingly says "Reflex Adapt ONLY" for Neo Geo
I am not familiar with Neo-Geo controllers but yes, SNAC has a limit on pins. IIRC that's why the Saturn one only supports 1 controller

>>11957250
An Xbox360 controller? Weren't those just standard USB? If you want to use that you can just plug it into any actual USB port on the MiSTer, preferably one on the hub. (Obviously, not the SNAC port or the two power-only ports)

I am using this for most games I play on MiSTer, but I have SNAC adapters for some of the cores that I use instead:
https://www.8bitdo.com/ultimate-2c-wired-controller/

There are probably better options though depending how much you want to spend, I was able to get that one pretty cheap

>>11958536

urrrgh that flesh coloured controller is giving eXistenZ vibes.

>>11958594
It was the only picture I could find of the wired version that shows off all it's buttons. The two I have are green/mint colored and a black/red one themed after that Wukong game.

Anyway, latency is pretty good on them, has enough buttons/sticks for just about every console core except Atari 5200 and Jaguar, and uses hall effect for both sticks and triggers so pretty decent for it's price. Just wish the d-pad was a bit better, but finding a decent dpad on a modern dual-analog controller is hard, especially if you don't want a wireless-only controller and/or one with hall effect or TMR.

>>11958513
>>11958536

>>Ah, so THAT'S where any CDs get stored.
>I am about 90% sure that's just a joke
No, I'm quite serious. Say that a PS1 game needs to load a section of data. If the game was *not* in RAM for the ARM CPU then it would have to be streamed in from the SD card. That would be a deadline nightmare to guarantee in-time execution to fill the wanted data. Simply horrible from a task scheduling point of view.

>but I prefer to just use SNAC.
Yeah, I'm thinking it's more for people who wants to use their SNAC enabled controllers on non-MiSTer systems.

>IIRC some of them have inputs based on voltage measurement
Shit, that must be the 2600 or something. Well, thinking about it, the Famicom did come with a microphone on controller #2. That feature is probably voltage controlled.
The choice choice wired controler makers had to do was this:
1. One wire per button. Like the Neo Geo.
2. A chip in the controller which reads all buttons and then a chip that serializes sending that reading. This is how all other controllers did it.
For them all it came down to few wires + chip was cheaper than many wires.

>MiSTer Pi is basically the base design that lets you experiment... ...if you like to tinker and upgrade.
I'm sorry to say that I do.

>I am not familiar with Neo-Geo controllers
They are the same as the JAMMA pinout. The NES pinout is in the picture was most likely only wired for 5 pins. A bit gets sent on the OUT 0 to the controller then it does an instant reading of the controller. Then, over 8 cycles, one bit per button is sent to the console.
The Neo Geo, on the other hand, is all in parallel. All the ten buttons (dirs, a-d, coin, start) are available in a bit sequence in the system memory. So the console reads it all in one cycle.
You can read more about it here: https://psmay.com/2011/10/18/the-game-controller-port-deconstructed/

(cont)

>>11958536

>An Xbox360 controller? Weren't those just standard USB?
Yeah, this is the PDP Versus pad. Available for 360 and PS3. If you ever stumble upon a cheap one you should definetly get it. It has a clicky D-pad (like the NGCD) and the buttons uses the same switch type as the D-pad does. Though I've worn out one and a half, so for my next one I might need to either find replacement switches OR just make my own custom PCB for it.

>I am using this for most games I play on MiSTer
Man, I looked around a bit and that is a *cheap* controller. Puts most other prices to shame. Tell me about the D-pad. Can you pull off supers in KoF with it? Or finishers in MK? How is it with precis pressing, like the Necrodancer games?

>>11958805
>Say that a PS1 game needs to load a section of data. If the game was *not* in RAM for the ARM CPU then it would have to be streamed in from the SD card. That would be a deadline nightmare to guarantee in-time execution to fill the wanted data. Simply horrible from a task scheduling point of view.
CD based games DO run off the SDcard, it would make no sense not to. These systems had 1x or at best 2x CD-ROM drives, even a low-end modern MicroSD card is going to have much much faster speeds than that. In fact, they are so much faster that it can even handle the lowered access speeds that compressing images to CHD causes unless you basically overclock the CD drive to force it to load faster than real hardware would.

That DDR3 RAM is not exclusive to the emulated core being run, the entire system is running off of it. Don't forget that the DE-10 still has an ARM SoC as well. While it's not used for emulation, that's what the FPGA is for, all the other background tasks as well as the menu/UI are running off the ARM side, the UI itself is not running on the FPGA, that would be both a mess and a waste of resources (The current Saturn core for example already uses up about 98-99% of the FPGA). It has a Linux backend that runs the UI and all the other background tasks so that they can stay out of the way of the FPGA that is dedicated to only running the system cores.

The only problem is that said DDR3 RAM is shared between the ARM and FPGA chips... the RAM is still much faster than any emulated core ever had in real hardware, but the issue is if the ARM is using it the FPGA has to wait... mostly just causes issues in a handful of games on the gen 5 cores.

>Yeah, I'm thinking it's more for people who wants to use their SNAC enabled controllers on non-MiSTer systems.
It's basically a universal USB adapter, makes more sense to use on a PC, SNAC isn't even playing a role in regards to that Reflex thing.

>>11958805
>Shit, that must be the 2600 or something.
Not 100% sure but I think some spinner/paddle controllers for it did that. Though IIRC the Genesis and 2600 used the same port and are actually compatible, though I am not 100% sure but I think you can damage things if you use B and C while it's plugged into a 2600. Also the 7200 controller had two buttons instead of one, but to be backwards compatible with the 2600 (not to mention it was originally designed as a 2600 controller) there is a resistor on one of the buttons, to a 2600 they look like the same button, to a 7200 it can tell which one is being pressed.

For that reason IIRC you can use a Genesis SNAC adapter for the 2600 and vice-versa (though the 2600 adapters have an additional AUX port for said spinner/paddle controllers). You can use the SNES SNAC adapter for NES too, in fact, for homebrew designed for it they can even make use of the extra buttons from the SNES controller on a NES.

Though you obviously won't be able to use the Zapper without an actual NES SNAC adapter (though you would also need a CRT, retro light guns don't work on anything other than a CRT)

>I'm sorry to say that I do.
Hey now, I love to tinker as well. Might be best to get a "sandwich" setup then. Though there is a very proof-of-concept not even alpha example of the Multisystem possibly being able to play off physical carts too. Might go nowhere though.

>The NES pinout is in the picture was most likely only wired for 5 pins.
IIRC the other two were used for things like lightguns

>>11958818
>Tell me about the D-pad. Can you pull off supers in KoF with it? Or finishers in MK? How is it with precis pressing, like the Necrodancer games?
I haven 't tried that many fighting games with it yet, I have mostly had it press diagonals in NES when I was really trying to intentionally mash opposite directions to see if I get accidental diagonals. I think it might be more an issue for 3rd/4th gen precision platforming than fighting games.

>>11958959
>These systems had 1x or at best 2x CD-ROM drives, even a low-end modern MicroSD card is going to have much much faster speeds than that
As an embedded guy I'm still very suspicious. But fine, I'll trust that it can get all the data from the device in time.

>>I'm sorry to say that I do.
>Hey now, I love to tinker as well.
Man, this controller business really is one of the deepest rabbit holes there are. You start by finding this article: https://misteraddons.com/blogs/news/reflex
And then you follow the link in there to the the controller testing data:
https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency
It seem my controller of choice, the PDP Versus, is doing comparatively well at 2.8 ms. Many 8bitdo devices are at around 5-6 ms. Your Ultimate 2C controller seems to be at 5 ms, which is very nice for a wireless controller.

For my Neo Geo-wired arcade sticks it seems like this is one of the better solutions, unless I shove a bunch of wireless stuff into the case: https://misteraddons.com/collections/arcade/products/reflex-encode-fighting-board

>>The NES pinout is in the picture was most likely only wired for 5 pins.
>IIRC the other two were used for things like lightguns
Yes, but that means that those wires didn't need to be there for the normal NES pad, thus saving in on copper costs.

>I haven 't tried that many fighting games with it yet
How about stupidly hard platformers? Things like Spelunky, Super Meat Boy, Towerfall/Celeste or anything like that? Ninja Gaiden or Kaizo SMW hacks? Anything where a shitty d-pad would instantly be painfully obvious.

>>11959317
>Man, this controller business really is one of the deepest rabbit holes there are
I know the feeling, I too have fallen down a rabbit hole of trying to find a good controller (a perfect controller seems to not exist, at least for what I want out of it)

>Your Ultimate 2C controller seems to be at 5 ms, which is very nice for a wireless controller.
I have the wired-only one, not the wireless
No idea if there is a difference in latency between the wired and the wireless when connected by wire

And they apparently made an even better one with TMR sticks and a switch to toggle the triggers between analog or digital, but it's wireless only. The Ultimate 2... which came AFTER my Ultimate 2C and is a different controller... yeah, they need better naming. Anyway, that one isn't really cheap, and I am not 100% sure but I think there is more than one version designed for specific consoles as well as a generic one for PC that would be the one to use on MiSTer. Going to have to lookup latency tests and how well the d-pad is for that one, also there is a Bluetooth and Dongle version, Bluetooth has a lot more latency.

https://gamepadla.com/8bitdo-ultimate-2-wireless-controller.html

>Neo Geo
Looking it up, most seemed to be recommending some device called a DaemonBite or a BlissBox, so might want to also look into those.

>Yes, but that means that those wires didn't need to be there for the normal NES pad, thus saving in on copper costs.
I meant for the port, the NES's SNAC adapter for example has them hooked up for lightguns or anything else that used them.

>How about stupidly hard platformers? Things like Spelunky, Super Meat Boy, Towerfall/Celeste or anything like that?
Haven't played Meat Boy since the 360 days...

>>11954837 (OP)
Waste of money and not really worth it. But what do I know? I own original consoles and a gaming PC.

>>11959473
Same except I still use the mister over the consoles because I don't like wire jungles.

>>11959406

I found the thread in the pic. Apparently I'm not alone in my experience.
It seems like I'll have to wait with the PDP Versus for a bit.

I've been looking and looking and looking. Fucking jungle, all of this. But okay, I *THINK* I've narrowed down my options to something more manageable;

The 8Bitdo Neo Geo CD pad seems to be a *really* good and affordable product. AND according to the RPubs site it's the third fastest wireless controller at 4.5 ms.
The NGCD controller must have some special thing going on, because reading the 8Bitdo website there is an explicit exception about controllers supported with their generic wireless USB receiver. Maybe it's just part of the deal they made with SNK? It's at the bottom of this page:
https://www.8bitdo.com/wireless-usb-adapter/
And in addition the supported systems by the NGCD controller is a much shorter list than what they normally have.

>also there is a Bluetooth and Dongle version, Bluetooth has a lot more latency.
Yeah, just doing the bluetooth chatter seems to add 5-10 ms to any communication.

>>Neo Geo
>Looking it up, most seemed to be recommending some device called a DaemonBite or a BlissBox, so might want to also look into those.
For my arcade sticks it seems like getting/building the GP2040 seems like a really nice solution. And if I ever wanted there also seems to be some sort of USB passthrough thing, which would enable it to work wirelessly, as seen in one of the pics here:
https://focusattack.com/gp2040-ce-v5-6e-usb-b-usb-c-open-source-multi-console-fight-board/
I looked up the DaemonBite and the Blissbox and they seem annoyingly expensive and/or not really a good fit. It'll be the GP2040 or equivalent.

>Haven't played Meat Boy since the 360 days...
Surely you have *some* game you could stress test your thumb and D-pad with, no?

>>11960186
The 8bitdo NGCD pad is pretty good, I've got one. The triggers aren't the best and the 4 face buttons is lame, but I think the joystick is better than the PDP Versus, and wireless is nice to have. Still not as good as the NGP, though.

>>11960193
Is it the button feel that are shit, or is it the button count?
If it's the button count, there's the one in the pic, but it sells for insane prices.

The best might be just making my own PCBs (using the GP2040-CE design) with better switches and stuff that shit into the PDP shell.

>>11960207
The count, as far as the buttons go they're typical, which is a little better than the PDP, I think microswitch buttons are a gimmick.

I've never taken the PDP apart, but I think the issue with it is the way the switches are actuated. The 8bitdo NGCD is basically 1:1 with the original, although I think it uses different switches that are easier to find. I definitely wouldn't buy one of those old PS2 pads if you haven't at least tried the NGCD layout first, the D-stick has more travel to it and maybe you'll still prefer the PDP Versus. 8bitdo is the cheapest way to get one these days.

>>11960224
>I think microswitch buttons are a gimmick
Maybe a bit. But as long as all the switches were pretty new it was very good.

>but I think the issue with it is the way the switches are actuated
How do you mean? That they were given more force than they were specified for? For mine both the D-pad and some buttons broke.

>maybe you'll still prefer the PDP Versus
Yeah, I'll probably just get the wireless NGCD controller and use thath for a bit, and then get a new PDP. I think they both may have their place for me.

I just like to play retro games on my computer or my phone :)

>>11962339
yes, the needful of course

>>11962339
kek

Things are starting to look good.

https://x.com/TakiUdon_/status/1958411518556700828

>>11965623
taki send me my mister pi already

Just get a Wii

>>11966310

Emulating on Wii is like the huffing spray paint of drug use.