Thread 11955857

I am slowly starting to think that The Legend of Zelda is meant to be a child-friendly version of Moorcock's multiverse.
>The trinity of The Eternal Champion, the Eternal Enemy, the Eternal Consort
>A legendary sword that appears across realities anchored to the Eternal Champion (the Black Sword)

Especially with Ocarina of Time you also have this weird element that Link is not a human, but an Elf coming from a dying isolated land, similar to Elric.

All the idea that Zelda has a "timeline" makes no sense if you apply the model of Moorcock's multiverse, but I believe this is what those Japs had in mind when they structured the Zelda series, at least at first.

It is a battle of cosmic forces that take shape on different worlds at different times, always following the same scheme, in an eternal conflict for the balance of the multiverse.

Convince me that this is a stupid idea, and that Miyamoto and Aonuma have never heard of Moorcock before

>>11955857 (OP)
He's not an Elf though.

more cock

lmao this nigga said cock gay ass nigga

>>11955857 (OP)
>Convince me that this is a stupid idea, and that Miyamoto and Aonuma have never heard of Moorcock before
Dunno, but Koji Kondo had probably listened to the Hawkwind album on which Moorcock performed vocals.

>>11956139
>>11956142
Huh‑huh‑huh...

Posting Yoshitaka Amano's artwork for Moorcock's Elric because he truly is Fantasy's first twink warrior, and at least some westaboos knew who he was.
(...also, I'm just posting it because it looks cool)

I tried to see if the old Zelda artist Katsuya Terada ever drew Elric, but no.
He did do some drawings of Conan the Barbarian though

anon zelda was originally going to be a sci-fi game about assembling a microchip

>>11956181
>Zelda artist Katsuya Terada
He drew Nintendo Power art among other things, he didn't work on Zelda.

>>11956201
that's interesting, where can I learn more?

>>11955857 (OP)
It's just Momotaro. Zelda fans, it seems like all they know is Zelda fantasy, right? A mindless character going into dungeons fighting stuff.

>>11955857 (OP)
Moorcock was a major influence for D&D, Final Fantasy, Warhammer and Dark Souls - to the point where they copy elements from him almost verbatim.

For Zelda I don't really see it.
It started with very simple ideas and gradually expanded them throughout the games. There's a lot of shinto influence and everyone knows the story about Miyamoto exploring caves as a kid.

>>11956272
The cave is mythmaking for them to pretend that Nintendo games aren't inspired by anything. The new Zelda nigga, besides making better games, isn't a liar.

>>11956213
Nintendo still had some old artwork. Basically it was going to be one of those 70s/80s things where the Hyrule was actually set in a post apocalyptic world and the Triforce was actually the three main chips for the computer that used to run the world.

A lot of scifi/fantasy was like that back then. The final boss of Ultima III was a super computer, there was a D&D adventure module where you slowly realize the dungeon you're in is actually a crashed space ship, Vampire Hunter D takes place thousands of years in the future.

>>11955857 (OP)
>All the idea that Zelda has a "timeline" makes no sense if you apply the model of Moorcock's multiverse, but I believe this is what those Japs had in mind when they structured the Zelda series, at least at first.
If anything, I feel like it's the opposite.
First, you have Zelda 1, then the Zelda 2 (introduced the Triforce of Wisdom).
Then, you have A Link To The Past as the prequel (mentions Ganon's backstory, Ganon has the entire Triforce)
Then Ocarina of Time was meant to cover the Imprisoning War mentioned in LTTP's backstory, but the ending didn't quite fit (namely, Ganon gets sealed away without the complete Triforce).
Then Majora's Mask and Wind Waker happened.
Odds are Zelda was indirectly influenced by Moorcock or even influenced directly in some ways, but the multiverse model doesn't seem to be one of them.

>>11955857 (OP)
It's not. It's literally just Ridley Scott's "Legend."

>>11956272
>major influence for D&D
Minor influence. Jack Vance was probably the biggest influence, followed by Robert E Howard, and then Fritz Lieber.

>>11958987
D&D is a mash-up to tons of things. They literally cited their sources back in 1e.

>>11958982
Nice try but everyone knows Ridley is Metroid.

>>11958848
>>11956213
>>11956201
Crystalis and 8 eyes us this premise I think

It's just a mish-mash of King Arthur and Celtic myth.
Japan seemed to really like Celtic myth around that time. Ys is also Celtic.

>>11958848
That basically *is* what Zelda is, especially now. They've been slowly creeping up on us with the idea that the Shiekah were a highly technological race who lived in the before-times.
The earliest appearance of ancient technology in Zelda is the Beamos enemies.

>>11960786
That's also why Zelda was "Christian" back then. It was wholly aesthetics; not Miyamoto and Kondo secretly being Catholics like some idiots like to prop up.
If the presence of Bibles, the cross, and a single painting of Link praying in a church makes Zelda Christian, Mortal Kombat is Shinto/Buddhist due to the presence of martial arts, Raiden, and multiple celestial worlds.

>>11955857 (OP)
Where do I start with Moorcock? is there any collections to look for?

>>11961139
I tried an audiobook, the first in the Elric saga, it didn't grab me.
I asked a boomer.
He said it's literature for boys, he had read all of them back in his day, but he wouldn't recommend it for adults.

I'm sure there's some good stuff in there, but I couldn't find it.

>>11961791
>I'm sure there's some good stuff in there, but I couldn't find it.
>I tried an audiobook

brother you didn't even look.

>>11959134
I love Appendix N. It was such a great resource for getting into fantasy

>>11961139
The Runestaff (Hawkmoon) series is pretty fun science fantasy.
The Corum series is more dramatic.
And Elric is classic sword&sorcery.

Final Fantasy 6 copied a lot from Hawkmoon and Corum is probably the most direct influence on Dark Souls.

>>11958848
Where are you getting this information? the only thing I am finding related to your picture is that it was concept art for a 3rd game that was going to be a jRPG but I found no source of this beyond the website.
I like the idea though. just what is the source to this?

>>11956145
Such a kickass album. Nothing beats getting high as humanly possible and popping that bad boy in.
>LIVES OF GREAT MEN ARE REMINDERS WE MAY MAKE OUR LIVES SUBLIME
>AND DEPARTING LEAVE BEHIND US, FOOTPRINTS IN THE SANDS OF TIME

>>11962571
https://www.gamekult.com/actualite/miyamoto-la-wii-u-et-le-secret-de-la-triforce-105550.html

The picture in his post comes from the Hyrule Historica book, but its under the section for LttP and just says that its Zelda in a scifi design they never used. The Miyamoto interview with Gamekult just says that the Triforce were electronic chips and that Link was suppose travel between past and future, but they just stuck with the fantasy elements.

A lot of people just extrapolated things from there. He's not wrong that that was a time period where a lot of sci-fantasy existed, but BotW is the only game that super close to the "Hyrule used to by ultra hitech until the DARK TIMES." I doesn't help that there was a popular fan artist who went all in on the whole "Hyrule was created by advanced aliens" thing.

>>11956214
>Muh Ghibli!!
Just a band of ecomaniac hacks that watched Disney movies before doing books and animations, just like every other jap hack from the 50s to 80s
Their presence is so overrated, the fat pigs, that gen AIslop of "talented rural boy" and who worship them, don't even recognize where it was made.

and no, i don't care if Nintendo sucks their dick as well just because they're japanese industry elites.
Fuck Ghibli!!

>>11963787
>I doesn't help that there was a popular fan artist who went all in on the whole "Hyrule was created by advanced aliens" thing.
Could be worse.
<- This was unironicly a pitch to Nintendo lol

>>11964797
>Ghibli out of nowhere

>>11963787
Skyward Sword literally has you time shifting into the distant past, and interacting with machines and robots.

>>11956091
Hylians are clearly just humans. Not elves.

>>11964803
>this was unironically a pitch to Nintendo
HOLY SHIT; so that's why he went ballistic when they introduced the Linkle in Hyrule Warriors! I always wondered why he kept insisting that he was the "first person" to come up with a girl Link. The idiot literally believed they stole the idea from him.

>>11964931
They did it that insufferable "Looky looky! A dungeon mechanic and a mascot race that have no further baring on anything else in the game!" crap that's been plaguing the series since MM. In BotW, the whole game revolves around ancient hi-tech Hyrule.

>>11965050
>The idiot literally believed they stole the idea from him.
To be fair, Nintendo steals lots of things from lots of people and then they pass it off as if they invented it. Even though I don't know who this guy is, he's probably right.

>>11956181
his art goes hard

>>11964803
weirdly, this guy invented dishonored 2 before dishonored 2 existed

>>11965050
>>11965067
Sorry for going off topic boardwise, but wasn't Linkle pitched by Koei Tecmo, hence her character concept shifting from Girl Link/Link's sister to "girl who thinks she's a reincarnation of the hero" when she did get added? Or am I mixing it up with a different game that KT decided to reprpose for HW?

>>11965443
No, you're right. Nintendo had no input into Linkle besides telling Koei Tecmo that making her Link's sister was off the table, because they wanted her to have zero significance to Aryll from Wind Waker

Never played a Zelda game.
I'm a fan of Moorcock.
All fucking JRPGs are like Pokemon to me.

>>11965447
That makes it an even sillier complaint. Like, bordering on Ken Penders' lawsuit over the Bioware Sonic RPG.

>>11965994
Point of order: Zelda is not a JRPG.
You have to go back into 80s Japanese dungeon crawlers to dodge 80% of the shonen-anime aesthetics.

>>11955857 (OP)
I like Elric, but it was Conan that they were ripping off

>>11965994
well obviously you're a retard since there's several flavors of JRPG

>>11967923
Zelda is basically just Cletic and Brittonic myth. The master sword is pretty clearly Excalibur, for one. Lots of fairies and druids and under water people in those stories. There's a particular fair haired boy hero with a magic thumb that grants him wisdom who is a figure in Celtic myth.

>>11965994
Then play Zelda, but not because of Moorcock. The best part of Zelda is how not-JRPG-like it is, like pretty much everything that's bad about JRPGs is absent in Zelda. Start out with Ocarina or the original NES game.

>>11968996
Genres are bullshit to begin with, but Zelda is far more an adventure game series than it is an RPG.
At it's core, it's a puzzle franchise. Everthing is kind of a puzzle in Zelda. The puzzles are puzzles obviously, but combat is also a puzzle. it always about figuring out how best to utilise tools, instead of leveling up your character to do more damage.

Zelda is rooted in Western pop culture, not Christianity, and also Eastern culture. Any Japanese toddler would get the references, but for Westerners it's some kind of occult and profound thing.

>watching that bad fantasy tv show on mtv that was based on a book
>revealed that all the elf’s and creatures are the result of nuclear war and this “fantasy” world is actually a post apocalypse
wtf is this where secret of mana came from?

As such a popular game OOT has had a lot of people analyze it and interview the creators. From what you can find online they claim the primary influences are LOTR and Twin Peaks... Which is an interesting blend. It does seem like Japan was incredibly obsessed with Twin Peaks in the 90s.

It also makes a lot of sense when you think about how character driven vs. plot driven OOT is. The story is extremely basic, but the characters are all oddballs. The mixture of magical whimsy and subtle, creeping, cosmic dread throughout the setting has always been such a strange flavor and it all makes sense when you think about blending Christian High Fantasy (LOTR) x Japan Shintoism x Twin Peaks oddball Americana meets cosmic horror.

>>11969129
The problem with that framing is that Western pop-culture is inevitably influenced by Christianity.
The whole dualist vision of reality as a battle between good and evil is very Christian. Not to say only Christians have ever had those ideas but Western fantasy as it stands is very influenced by Tolkien, and Tolkien's entire worldview was Christian.
Star Wars when you get down to it is also basically Christianity with the numbers filed down. The whole central thrust of the thing is about resisting temptation to do evil, and fighting the devil. And it's about how even a man who has done the most wicked things can be redeemed if he sees the error of his ways and accepts "the light side of the force" *cough* Jesus.
That's just how it is, I'm afraid. No one is saying you have to be a Christian, but to pretend these things aren't what they are is just delusion for the sake of delusion.

Oh and Star Trek is also Christian. You probably wouldn't get it. Almost no one does.

Interestingly, Super heroes are not Christian. Super Heroes are pagan.

>>11969129
The entire "Zelda is Christian" stuff is entirely based on Link's shields in the first two games having a cross and the Magic Book's original name being "Bible" in the FDS version. The same people who try to claim this picture from Ape's LttP Guide Book is definitive proof are also the one's who claim that LttP purposely tried to hide the series' "Christian roots" by making up the Goddess origin story for the Tri-Force.

Some people genuinely can't fathom that other cultures see their religion as just set dressing for a specific genre.

>>11969263
Even though the first superhero's origin story paints him as Moses Christ?

>>11969270
It's based on Ganon being the fucking devil, m80.

>>11964803
>This was unironicly a pitch to Nintendo lol

First off, A PITCH doesn't actually mean anything of goddamn merit. Any retard can PITCH something. You could put together your moronic thoughts together right now and PITCH it somewhere. Secondly, stop letting internet cunts live in your brain and hard drive. Good fucking god it's like we can't go so much as a week without one of you morons feeling the need to bring up some random it of garbage made by a moron years ago. Let it die.

>>11969274
Well, firstly, Jews aren't Christians, and secondly yes. The entire genre is a celebration of champions who are champions because of their physical strength, or because they have unique abilities or command over the elements.
Super heroes don't seek to do to good in accordance to the law of a creator. They generally aren't pitched against manifestations of metaphysical evil. They create the law for themselves, and they rise up to strike down people who wish to challenge their law.
Moses is considered a heroic figure because he was chosen by his god to lead his people according to the ways of his god. Superman is considered a heroic figure because he hits harder than every other guy. No one stands above Superman.

>>11969279
People still joke about it because this because the Linkle temper tantrum over this turned public perception of Diaz from a semi-respected webcomic artist to an entitled crybaby.

>>11969290
>They create the law for themselves, and they rise up to strike down people who wish to challenge their law.
I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you've never actually read a comic book a day in your life.

>>11969298
I've read the odd one. It's beside the point because the stories are all disseminated across pop culture, anyway.

>>11969306
Literally THE thing about superheroes is that they maintain the status quo and abide by the law. Superman being a paragon of White American Christian Values has literally been his whole shtick since the 40s. You know: Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

>>11969340
Vigilantism is illegal. They literally do not abide by the law. They take the law into their own hands.

>>11969529
They've been officially deputized numerous times and even when they're skirting the law by being vigilantes that's all more the reason they can't go too far

>>11969340
Early Superman is about stopping men from beating their wives and politicians from war profiteering. Hardly protecting the status quo

>>11969568
There was that time in Superman IV when he basically strong armed all of Earth's governments into giving up their nukes too.

>>11969568
Probably why he said "40s" and not "from the beginning".

>>11969547
Both the members of the Justice League and the Avengers are legally considered deputized officers of the law.

>>11968931
He touched the salmon of wisdom accidentally while preparing it for his druid master so he let him eat it instead because he figured it was destined. Im familiar with Fionn Mac Cumhaill.

The "timeline" wasn't particularly a serious part of the series until they made it confusing, ironically.

Zelda II was always the sequel to Zelda I
LttP was suppose to be the "Golden Age" mentioned in the manual of Zelda II
OoT was suppose to be the "Sealing War" mentioned in LttP's opening crawl
Majora's Mask was always the sequel to OoT.
The Game Boy games were always nebulous.

Wind Waker/Twilight Princess is where everything falls apart as they both take place 100 years after OoT. Even funnier is that Wind Waker is the one that actually brings up the idea that Link is the same person being reincarnated across time... only for it to be explicitly stated that WW Link is just some kid.

>>11958848
>one of those 70s/80s things
>>11958848
>A lot of scifi/fantasy was like that back then.
damn I miss that style of sci fi, from its paintings to anime

>>11970979
>only for it to be explicitly stated that WW Link is just some kid.
Wait, so he's called Link, looks like link, does Link things, but he isn't Link and it's all a coincidence?

>>11971105
Yep.
All boys on his island wear Link's outfit when they turn 10. The King of Red Lions picked him up THINKING he was a Link, but the Jabun directly tells him that he's just some kid. Hell, until you discover the Master Sword is busted, all WW Link is concerned about is rescuing his sister from the Forbidden Fortress. Had he actually been THE Link, the Triforce of Courage mark would have shined on his hand when he first meets Ganondorf, but it doesn't.

>>11955857 (OP)
schizo