Thread 11988294

Why do shmups, the best genre, cause so much hatred?
Is it because of the sheer depth and density the genre offers, leading people who play non-games like JRPGs feeling inadequate?
Is it because of the immense difficulty and brutal decisions, making those who can't get good cry and call them bullshit quarter munchers?
Is it simply the purity of the genre, being all killer no filler gameplay?
It's hard to say, but no genre like shmups causes quite this anger

They just suck, that's all

Sup mork.

>>11988296
But they don't
You've played every shmup and they suck, why?
Is it the intensity of the difficulty and how focused you need to be, how you can't second screen a shmup?

>>11988294 (OP)
maybe because their fans are mentally ill faggot spammers who would rather continue to shitpost on 4chan as opposed to ever, ever play the games they claim to like?
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/11988167/

>>11988294 (OP)
Many of them are unfair, simple as.
I wouldn't call Sky Shark or Twin Cobra unfair, but I would say that Raiden II is, even though it's cool.

>>11988304
Yep

>>11988294 (OP)
Marketing failure.

No, really.

Shmups were killed during the "serious game" craze where everything had to be a gritty shooter game.

The gritty shooter games had nothing to do with it, it's just that as part of the "big boys only play this" culture, soon enough genres like shmups, platformers or anything with a vibrant or cartoony style became shunned.

People who actually liked the genre still played shmups, yes, but here's a truth nuke for you. You have to start as a normie before you actually get into ANY genre. Thus, entire generations grew up completely unaware of it.

These days, there's no more active stigma against shmups. Some people still live through the past and call them bad for no reason, but it's actually getting better, so just give it time.

That's the actual answer you are looking for. On a more objective level, it's a core genre that a lot of other games use partially. Shmups will never actually die.

Interestingly, on a marketing level, shmup is an anti-buzzword. Putting it in your game description actually reduces profitability. This is also not as bad as it used to be, and will get better going by current trends.

who the hell is mad at shmups? i just think it is not a very popular genre and certainly not one normies care about. im not the biggest fan but ive definitely played my share. my local pizza place had raiden then the sequel and those are the only arcade ones i can remember playing. i absolutely loved the way those games looked and felt in the arcade. the snes game was okay but the playstation one was pretty close to the arcade. the rest of the shmups i played were mostly on the nes/snes. the typical ones. gradius, r-type, etc

Do shmupfags have the biggest victim complex? I think so

>>11988329
I nominate saturnfags

For two reasons:
1. these games are extremely difficult
2. these games have very "arcadey" characteristics, which is seen in a pejorative way by the new audience that began to form when video games became popular and started offering interactive experiences rather than games

In any case, there is no such thing as a best genre. There is no similarity between a shoot 'em up and a train simulator, or grand strategy, or FIFA, or Street Fighter, or backgammon, or chess, etc. They are totally different things, and anyone who says that submarine simulators are a lesser genre when compared to shoot 'em ups is completely insane because they are comparing things that have nothing to do with each other.

>>11988296
Fpbp

After the snes era a shoot em up is a rip off

>>11988294 (OP)
i love dodonpachi daioujou

>>11988294 (OP)
If i had to reckon, it's probably posts like this from shmoop fart-sniffers that makes normal people find them, and thus the genre itself, to be for insufferable hipsters with nothing else going on for them in their life beyond dodging purple dots all day.

>>11988341
posts like >>11988336 too

>>11988329
Hey hold on, it's only one faggot who keeps making these threads. Don't act like a whole community is made of insufferable faggots just because some retard thinks shmup takes 200 iq to not get hit by dots moving in your screen.

>>11988345
Even on /v/ I see the same strawman arguments that if you have any problems with shmups it's because they're too hardcore and too much gameplay for you
It's dumb and dishonest but the worst is how other shmup fans agree with the strawman
Reminds me of fighting game people and how if you have any problem with that genre it's because "skill issue get good"

no one actively dislikes them as much as they just dislike losing over and over with little outside help.

>>11988294 (OP)
they give off serious neurodivergent vibes.
My idea of a good time isn't counting beans in a jar or dodging a billion little dots on a screen

Is /shmupg/ trying to revive itself again?

>>11988537
What in the schizo

>shmups are apparently super deep and intricate
>but when I ask for advice they tell me "it's a shmup lol just look at a reply and dodge"
So which is it

>>11988475
No, autists prefer games like Civilization and Kingdom Hearts.

>>11988860
just dodge bro

>>11989028
I wouldn't even mind if they were just honest about it
It's this obnoxious pretension that gets me

>>11988860

>dark souls is apparently super deep and intricate
>but when I ask for advice the tell me "just roll bro"

>>11988294 (OP)
Bait, but I'll answer: because a lot of people just don't want shmups. It's a genre that has a very specific niche, and those who like it are playing it as is. The reason some people instead play "games that make them feel like bullet hell" is for the same reason why someone would play Mega Man X4 over Ninja Gaiden: they don't want to learn specific ways to deal with quickly respawning enemies, but they do want to feel like a ninja, so the play an easier game that makes them feel cool. Different tastes for different people.
>>11988860
What do you need advice for? I've seen good shmup threads where people are far more helpful than that, but I don't think I'll be able to help since I am not really good at these games.

>>11988294 (OP)
>images(167).jpg
Where can I actually discuss video games on 4chan nowadays? This entire board is just shitty threads and bait. The shmup thread is a gay general where some guy can't stop passive aggressively whining about batrider in the dumbest way possible and has been doing it for weeks, this thread is clearly retarded bait and it will hit bump limit, the /v/ arcade thread is full of disinformation and a mix of Russian 13 year olds and boomers with unironic dementia, so where can I go to actually discuss video games?

This guy keeps spamming shitty bait threads both on /v/ and /vr/, don't reply.
>>>/v/719380008

>>11988294 (OP)
Games are great, but the fambase is very culty and annoying, due to how niche they are. Can't blame them tho. Ones you get bitten by the shmup bug, you're just hooked. You'll never be able to look at video games the same way ever again.

>>11988860
Tell me the specific shmups you're struggling in, and if you're having issues just surviving, or scoring aswell, and I'll try to help :)

>>11988294 (OP)
i don't play arcadeslop.

Surely this spate of shitposting is a single guy right? I can't imagine this is the work of the shmup community

The other problem with wanting somewhere to discuss games is that people seem to think discussion is just mindlessly agreeing about something

>>11988294 (OP)
2hu ruined /tg/ so thats a factor

i dont hate shmups i have a shmup collection

>>11990680
That's a stupid enough statement that I want to see you elaborate so I can laugh at you.

>>11990683
1cc collection?

>>11990656
What?

>>11990656
It's some retard obsessed with electric underground.

>>11988294 (OP)
How do I get those cool wallpapers while playing?

I use retroarch btw

>>11991736
>I use retroarch btw
Start by using a real emulator
No I mean it, you can get stuff like that in MAME and that includes the RA core version, although it will look worse on the latter.

>>11991781
righto captain

what i like about fbneo: works on potato, low af latency, runahead actually works
what i like about retroarch: freesync support is buttery smooth, works good on linux

i havent really tried mame lately so ill give it a spin later for comparison. why do you like it the best?

>>11991803
>why do you like it the best?
Honestly just the fact I have used it for a long time so I can do things like setting up artworks, basic cheats, and other customization options. But for what's worth it will at least be better than using RA.

>>11991602
Huh?

>>11991949
A youtuber who talks about arcade games and shmups specifically.

>>11988341
translation: it's a core genre and normies can't into core genres

>>11991602
He unironicaly gets the mod right

>>11989293
Kek
>>11989427
Sounds like you don't know how to use 4chan

>>11988294 (OP)
Bad fans. That's the start and end of it. The genre invites elitism and pretension. Thanks to that one Japanese dude or whatever, it also invites pedophilia and transgenderism (the latter of which in turn stirs up yet more corrosive controversy, not that that's the trannies' fault). It also happens to be robotically hyperspecialized by the extremely tradition-bound Japanese autists and near-autists who work within it; this often rightly turns off the average person. It's a good but sadly underexplored genre.

It's weird because I got into shmups by accident. I don't know anything about this online community. I just browse through shmup wiki and play whatever looks cool and work out how to play the game myself. I don't really have a need to watch other people or read their opinions, because for me a lot of the fun is just doing it myself.

Oh yeah, at first the anime shit was really cringe but after a while I succumbed

>>11994101
I would recommend you use this thread over here >>11984332, anyway...
>because I got into shmups by accident
Most people did if they are old enough, as in they just found one of these games in the local arcade, thought it was very neat and still do to this day. If anything what OP is talking about is a fairly new thing because of some YouTuber who plays shmups and other arcade games.
>I don't really have a need to watch other people or read their opinions, because for me a lot of the fun is just doing it myself.
Well if you didn't care at all you wouldn't be here, but I get what you are trying to say. Yeah it's more about playing the games by yourself than being part of a "shmup community" for me as well.

>>11994020
>Thanks to that one Japanese dude
You gotta be more specific than that. Both shmups devs and players are japanese, could be literally anyone.

>>11994101
Yeah I'm glad I don't have any involvement with that 'community'. Just doing business with them to buy the games is frustrating enough

>>11988294 (OP)
It's a /vr/ thing. Shmup fans (not including you) are normally chill. I've never heard anyone complain about "memoshit" outside of this board.
For the record, shmups are one of my favorite genres.

>>11994613
>I've never heard anyone complain about "memoshit" outside of this board.
Also on /v/. And you guessed it, it's the same guy.

>>11988294 (OP)
>density
Using this word in this context instantly discredits your opinion. Kill yourself immediately.

>>11988294 (OP)
Mark being an NG2fag is way more discrediting than his shmuptardation. How do you pontificate on game design all day and fellate delimb into UT spam the game?

>>11994020
Shut the fuck up you retardedniggerfaggot, shmups already became a niche genre by 1988. You don't know shit.

>try to make thread about game design
>all vr talks about is some e-celeb

>>11996034
Because everyone knows this is a Mork thread made by the same schizo

>>11996052
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>11996057
Read the thread

>>11994634
>Also on /v/.
That makes sense. I hardly ever go there these days.

this one is cool

>>11988294 (OP)
Shmups are fundamentally very different from most other genres. Gaining skill at Street Fighter or Ridge Racer or Tetris is about learning the mechanics of the game and then using mastery of those mechanics to succeed. The basics are the same but each game is different and it's a test of your skills vs what comes up in the game.

Getting good at a shmup is a lot more like learning to play a piece of misic. The game starts and you're on a steady path, enemies come in waves in specific patterns that are always the same. So the "game" as such it is, is memorizing where to go in respose to each enemy and wave to maximize your score.

And so, because the genre is mostly an exercise in memorization and repetition the challenge has to come in making it so that the games seem very difficult until you have memorized the patterns. That gives the genre an air of seeming very hardcore and difficult to outsiders and shmup fans try to play that up as it validates their dedication to a genre that's more akin to playing a piano than playing a game.

>>11997031
Play Touhou: Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream. It's a shmup, but it's set up like a fighting game where you have different characters that you're competing against. It's not as deterministic as most shmups.

>>11997130
Yeah, there are a few that are more interesting. Fantasy Zone is an excellent example. But generally shmup fans want that classic shmup experience.

>>11997031
>the challenge has to come in making it so that the games seem very difficult until you have memorized the patterns.
Well, while I don't doubt many 1cc players simply memorised the solutions, surely the fun is more in figuring out the solution? The waves are a type of puzzle and you apply the tools you have to solve them. And even if you find something that works, it's always worth finding others to see if the flow works better for you.

everyone has played one shmup
why would you ever play a second one

>>11997130
>Touhou
Not a shmup

>>11997239
There's nothing wrong with classic shmups. I fucking love Raiden I and II, and those are textbook examples of the genre.
>>11997484
Because shmups come in all sorts of different types. That's like asking why someone would listen to more than one death metal band, when to the average person they all sound like noise.
>>11997502
Are danmaku games not a subgenre of shmup? Not that PMDD is a typical danmaku game; it's like a subgenre of that. It's a shmup that falls into a sub-subgenre.

>>11988294 (OP)
You 1cc one and you 1cc them all.

Vocal shmup haters are infinitely more annoying than shmup fanboys. Now quit shitposting and find some hobbies

The fact that so many shmup fans still name Ikaruga as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" shmup ever only tells you how far shmups still are from becoming a serious art. Pinball critics have long recognized that the greatest pinball machines of all times are Attack From Mars and Medieval Madness, which were not the best selling or most popular or best earners on location of their times, let alone of all times. Fighting game critics rank the highly controversial Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike over Tekken games which were highly popular in arcades in both the east and west. Shmup critics are still blinded by commercial success. Ikaruga sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Pinball critics grow up playing a lot of pinball machines of the past, fighting game critics grow up playing a lot of fighting games of the past. Shmup critics are often totally ignorant of the shmups of the past, they barely know the best sellers. No wonder they will think that Ikaruga did anything worthy of being saved.

>>11998119
>the fact that so many shmup fans still name ikaruga as the greatest shmup ever
They don't.

>>11998119
>ikaruga
That's outdated. Shmup farms named garegga as the greatest shmup ever.

>>11997694
Vastly the other way around
Shmup fanboys come into every thread proclaiming their epic gameplay density and other rubbish then call victim when they get btfo

>>11998171
>[schizophrenic delusions]
Morky schizo.....

I hate how the definitive way to play shmups is universally agreed upon by both players and developers to be save states and copying other players. You can make basically any game as hard as possible by speedrunning/scoring/doing challenge runs, and as dense as possible by spamming savestates. At this point I feel like the initial game design wouldn't even matter anymore. And I'm tired of people comparing videogames to playing a musical performance or participating in a sports event with thousands of people watching, you know, where it actually matters if you fuck up or not.

I can respect people who criticize the genre but they are not fixing any of the problems (neither am I). Some of them don't even play. Fuck this genre and especially the community but it can be fun playing and there's nothing like it.

>>11998119
Ikaruga is an interesting case. It has 94% positive reviews on steam yet only 11% of players beat the final boss (most of them probably with infinite credits which makes the difficulty non-existent). And only 1% of people have a 1cc. I feel like people just don't want to get mad at shmups, especially more critically acclaimed ones like Ikaruga. I bet they think something like "yeah this game is great for shmup veterans but I suck, the graphics and music are cool though just as this youtuber/critic said so I'm not regret buying this, loving the poetry and the message btw".

>>11998253
>fuck this genre and especially the community but it can be fun playing and there's nothing like it
What?
>I feel like people just don't want to get mad at shmups
It doesn't have to do with Ikaruga being a shmup, it has to do with the journo shill campaign
Any shmup which isn't known in the mainstream consciousness is open to the worst, most retarded insults imaginable by such normalfags.

>>11998292
>it has to do with [shit i made up to hate on popular thing]
yes we know delusional faggot

>>11998253
>I hate how the definitive way to play shmups is universally agreed upon by both players and developers to be save states and copying other players
If the developers agreed to it, they would save states into actual ports, but they don't
You DO get a general practice/training menu with quick start for each level, midboss, boss, etc.
and bitching that learning from other players is "copying", lmao
>you can make any game as hard as possible by speedrunning/scoring/challenge runs
99% of shmups can't be speedrun
The other 1%, speedrunning is the same as score running
Challenge runs aren't really a thing
I really don't understand the jump from "you can modulate difficulty by doing scoring at higher or lower levels" to "the game design doesn't matter at all anymore"
this entire post is just schizophrenic wordslop

>>11988294 (OP)
>Why do shmups, the best genre, cause so much hatred?
maybe it's because you're a prick who starts threads with incendiary language like "the best genre".

>>11998253
No one is forcing you to use states or watching replays.
>b-but
No one. If you don't enjoy playing in that way, you don't have to.

>>11988294 (OP)
They don't reward participation and expect you to get good. That's it. The shitters go running for the jarpigs the minute they have to play a game of skill.

>>11998301
>If the developers agreed to it, they would save states into actual ports, but they don't
The M2 CAVE ports have save states
>Challenge runs aren't really a thing
There is NMNB, but mostly reserved for the 2hu nigs.

>>11998409
....M2 did not develop the games that they ported

>>11998431
Most ports aren't from the same devs either when it comes to shmups.

>>11998253
>I hate how the definitive way to play shmups is universally agreed upon by both players and developers to be save states and copying other players
People recommend this because of two reasons:
A) It's the most time-efficient way to learn and practice a game. That said, you DON'T HAVE to use savestates or look at other players' recorded runs seeking tips and strategies, but know that it'll take you a lot longer to learn, specially if you also don't use the Stage Select option most arcade shmups ports have.
I personally recommend at least using the stage selector so you don't have to deal with the boredom of having to play the earlier stages you've already learned every time you want to practice the latter ones.

B) The people recommending it assume you want to play shmups competitively against other players.
Excuse me if you already know this, but shmups are played in mainly two ways: against the machine and against other players.
The players who play purely for their own enjoyment without other players' being in the equation don't have to care about the most cost/time-effective ways to learn.
While the ones that play against each other (indirectly by trying to one-up each others' scores on leaderboards and hi-score lists) absolutely need to use whatever advantage they can to improve more effectively so the remain competitive. I.e. Pretty much all of them are practicing with savestates and copying superplays, because otherwise it would take them AN ETERNITY to not just get to that level but also discover a ton of stuff on their own.
Also, japanese and top players COPY EACH OTHER all the time and have done so since forever even before the internet was invented. E.g. By looking at whoever is currently playing the arcade cabinet they're waiting on.

P.S. Play however you want because games are for fun. Just because some players' fun requires competing against other each it doesn't mean yours must too.

>>11998253
>And I'm tired of people comparing videogames to playing a musical performance or participating in a sports event with thousands of people watching, you know, where it actually matters if you fuck up or not
I'm assuming that analogy is made based on the player having to play consistently good during a run in order to clear the game, at opposed to other (typically console) games where once you finish a stage or complete a section you don't need to play it again during your playthrough.

Regarding Ikaruga, don't put too much stock on the statistics. A lot of people buy games on Steam out of FOMO (due to the platform's sales and great discounts) and never play them for more than a few minutes if at all.
Plus Ikagura is a special case because it was heavily promoted back in the day by both media outlets and players for whom it was their first shmup.

And regarding the community, ALL hobby communities have flaws. Every single one.
Even if they're not based on a competitive activity you'll ALWAYS find assholes and posers using the hobby as a way to push people down to make themselves feel better, same as in real life in general. Just ignore them or tell them to fuck off and keep enjoying the games.

>>11999302
>>11999347
I don't know why you bothered taking your time writing these in reply to my seething but thanks for not being a dick I guess. I need to get the fuck out.

>>12000713
It's okay, these things happen.

>>11998171
>Vastly the other way around
So you're projecting then.

how do you prevent getting carpal tunnel n shit? i use arcade stick and my forearm is starting to get stabbing pains from playing a lot last few days. am i just weak and fragile?

>>12003194
>am i just weak and fragile?
Yes. Install better nutrition* and maybe look into better gripping techniques.
Protip: If your hands hurt from playing video games just quit for a few days. Yeah I know, but it werks fer mi.


*potassium my friend! (but don't take too much that's bad!)

>>12003194
I somehow managed to hurt the finger I use to hold or repeatedly press the shoot button. Take a little break and then go back to it, don't run too much since it's only going to tire you out anyway. Pretty much every time I got a 1cc was either the first or second attempt in the same day and I was fresh.

I'm so close to a 1CC on Twin Cobra, I mean on my day to day playing of it. I know it's one of babbys frist shooters, but it's still hard to me damnit.
Pray for me, bros.

>>12003215
Good luck, but why are you using this thread to progress post and not the other more general one?

>>11997130
Just play Twinkle Star Sprites.

>>12003215
You can do it Anon!

>>12003323
I listened to that and I thought it's the very definition of happy accident. Very experimental mechanics that somehow ended up working out together very well, genuinely don't think the devs realized they were making some ludokino.

>>11988294 (OP)
shmup fans dont play shmups. go to any shmup community and those that post the most often play them the least and just care to talk about "game density", and "skill expression" or whatever the fuck. the ones that actually do play them and are good at them are usually pretty cool.

>>12003194
Google nothing boring about boron.
Use pink salt or Celtic.

>>11988294 (OP)
>hard to say, but no genre like shmups causes quite this anger

I don't know about anger. I think people mostly just don't give a fuck aboot them anymore.