Thread 3803528

I don't get the appeal.

>>3803528 (OP)
You had to be there at the time it released

>>3803528 (OP)
chuds like to larp as rome, simple as

>>3803545
>chuds like to larp as rome, simple as
Accurate.
>t. chud

>le romans... In based fallout!
This shit is so cringe, like put cowboys and soviets too

The writers didn't understand irl warrior aristocracies, so they had some pussy nerd that reads Hegel at the helm, since that was ironically closer and more familiar to their conception of "power".

The writers didn't understand irl warrior aristocracies, so they had some pussy nerd that reads Hegel at the helm since that sort of depiction was ironically more familiar to their conception of "power".

>>3803528 (OP)
Ancient Rome is cool. You wouldn't get it unless you were a bookish child.

>>3803528 (OP)
Perfect faction for sub 5 intelligence retards

>>3803545
/thread

I really can't take the faction seriously with the gun restriction. Either they can't commit to it or it goes full "hurr durr lethal teddy bear launcher" Fallout logic. At least give them crossbows.

>>3803693
Imagine if Rome had had mechanical devices to propel lethal projectiles at enemies. Theyd have conquered the world

Their outfits are too retarded for me to take seriously. It's not like the IRL Roman Empire had soldiers running around in torn up rags as uniforms. Do they not have anyone in their territory who knows how to sew?

>>3803693
>gun restriction
I don't get this meme.
The Legion has no gun restriction. They were even about to get themselves a massive order of energy weapons from the VanGraffs.
If anything the NCR has a "gun restriction", considering most troopers have little to no ammo to spare and can't even train due to lack of ammunition.

>>3803528 (OP)
Its the hard hand of civilization its a functioning nation of raiders that could be more mind I only see the appeal of conquering them from within or without. Other wise there just a bunch of beaten tribes locked in lock step by a terror state that can only last as long as its leader. My favorite moment with the legion was in the fronter witch has a more interesting legion was the persuasion check for the mayor of junkflea.
> Don't play the NCR in the frontier its worse then pulling teeth.

>>3803528 (OP)
>capital punishment for drug dealers and bandits, making drug addiction a thing of the past and garnering a net 0% crime rate
>eliminates taxation for Arizona citizens by implementing an economy where government labor is outsourced
>outlaws sex trafficking and makes sure women will always be able to find good husbands
>keeps the populace fit and healthy through revolutionary exercise programs
What isn't there to get?

I always side against the Legion because they're way more fun to fight than the NCR. Feels so good to get the drop on a Legionary assassin squad and wipe them out from long range before they can tell you're there

>>3803528 (OP)
The pans on his boddy look like he has tits and a fat stomach from the thumbnail.

>>3804001
just covering up that winter weight

>>3803528 (OP)
They don't have any appeal because the Mojave isn't bad/unlawful enough to justify their methods, House is straight up upgrade over them. This is one thing New Vegas got wrong -- if its wasteland was closer to Fallout 1/2 in terms of menaces and dangers, the Legion's way of doing things would be an acceptable option. In the Mojave wasteland you have what, a "city" where former tribals play at casino owners, cazadors in fairly remote areas, deathclaws holed up in a quarry and a group of super mutants controlling a mountain.

>>3805710
>outer vegas is crawling with Fiends
>powder gangers in NCRCF and vault 13
>Freeside is a shithole crawling with drug addicts and thieves
I do agree with you though. The biggest gang problems (fiends and powder gangers) can be solved on any playthrough regardless of faction choice and a House victory is the only option that allows for Freeside to be cleaned up.

>>3803528 (OP)
Me neither. Shit game for midwit faggots.

>>3803528 (OP)
Except the aesthetics, there's genuinely none if you're not a 13 year old boy. The legion has only ever managed to "recruit" significant numbers out of tribals they enslaved, almost no one willingly joins the legion, and by simply coming from civilization instead of tribals you immediately go to the top of the army.

They have no long-term plan, Caesar is just an egomaniac retard spouting fake philosophy, and the legion is destined to crumble and die once an actual civilization takes enough of an interest in their demise.

If you're evil, House for the freedom from consequences and having the boss take care of you, or Yes-Man to be completely in control, are immensely better options. And if you're not, then NCR is the obvious choice. Even in terms of larp, considering your character is a courier who knows civilization, it's almost impossible to create a larp to join the legion that makes sense.

>>3806043
>outer vegas is crawling with Fiends
>powder gangers in NCRCF and vault 13
>Freeside is a shithole crawling with drug addicts and thieves
And all of those are only an issue because of the legion. If the legion wasn't a constant threat, then the NCR wouldn't be stuck at their outposts and would have solved all those issues years before the game started, the legion isn't the problem to the solution, they're the cause.

>>3803528 (OP)
Cute boyfriends for everybody

>>3808527
It's punished by death if discovered in the legion though

>>3803528 (OP)
Their quests are doing terrorism with the boys. Thats the appeal, its fun to do evil shit. When you win you get your face put on the money. Badass. NCR is cringe, ohh please protect our president. Or god forbid you go independent and have to save his sorry ass while not even being allowed near him. Legion lets you blow him up. I really don't buy that Hegel shit, but I like wearing a dead dog on my head and dismembering junkies and profligates with ripper.

>>3808500
Maybe I just want to pillage and rape, retarded fag.

>>3803528 (OP)
Based mascvline gay sex

>>3808529
Not if you do it with a slave and top

what is the verdict?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e8WrmOibpM&t=11s

>>3808505
But both outcomes are the same regardless of who wins, the NCR or Legion drive all the gangers and fiends out after the Hoover Dam battle.

>>3808505
>The Legion is somehow responsible for the NCR making the brilliant decision of sending convict rail workers with dynamite into an active war zone
You can argue that the Fiends are a Legion problem given that Caesar is paying them to attack NCR specifically, but I don’t know you managed to rationalize the incompetence of NCRCF management as somehow being the Legion’s fault while exempting the NCR itself of accountability in how their own penitentiary system is run. Also how is Feeside being a ghetto the Legion’s fault? Freeside is the way it is because House kicked everyone off the Strip who refused to ally with him; the NCR leaves it exactly the way it is on their ending and the Legion enslaves most of them. House is, funnily enough, the only option that results in Freeside being cleaned up as a community despite being the reason as to how it became so deprived.

>>3809237
Except in one outcome the civilians are vastly better off for it, and in the other they're all enslaved, raped, or subject to way more taxes than the NCR would with the added benefit that Legionaries can rape their families in front of their eyes for no reason if they wish.

>>3809295
I blame the Legion not as the cause in the first place, but as the reason those problems haven't been fixed yet. The reason the NCR needs the Courier so much is because all their orders are to stand still and wait because Oliver is afraid they'll get stomped by the Legion if they make any move.

All the stupid arguments of "look the NCR is so weak!" point out things that only exist because of the threat of the Legion, if there was no Legion, the NCR would have cleaned up the place years ago. The NCRCF matter would have been quelled in a week.

The NCR has some issues, and they're not always welcomed, but a strong military and government is absolutely necessary for human development, the only reason towns like Goodsprings aren't killed by raiders yet is a combination of luck and not having much worthwhile to attack. The NCR is the only way forward for mankind in this part of the US, and the mistakes they make can be remedied quite quickly, and despite bringing more taxes, they bring vastly more prosperity and long-term safety. Many in the NCR set up efforts to help the civilians, and the Followers do the same by following the NCR around and sometimes allying directly with them. Freeside wouldn't be a shithole (or much less) at the date of the game if the Legion never existed.

>Freeside is the way it is because House kicked everyone off the Strip who refused to ally with him
True, fuck House.

>>3803693
>>3803771
Yeah I don't know where people are getting this. Requiring your soldiers to be proficient in melee combat is not the same as restricting their access to firearms.

>>3809624
When going up against tribals, it's an advantage to have uniformly made throwing spears, machetes, & light padded armor for your untested recruits. Against the NCR in open combat, rather than clever ambushes, the Legion sends in their well-armed & experienced prime troops. Guns are clearly required & used by the legionaries in question who have proven their worth vs foes against whom guns aren't needed. Howitzers are Halal for the Hegelians, as are other weapons of war, just no chems, alcohol, or robits. The game does frame them as luddites & melee afficianados though, despite the more concrete lore.

>>3809295
>the incompetence of NCRCF management
The warden's terminal implies the breakout was only possible because the NCR pulled manpower from the prison to the dam. He knows they're understaffed and it's only a matter of time before disaster strikes.

>>3809304
>The NCR isn’t weak, they’re just weak when there’s opposition.
So what fucking good are they if they fall apart at any equal opposition? You’re getting mad at the legion for something the NCR should be prepared for. The legion may not be what the waste needs but the NCR sure as shit ain’t it either.

>>3809624
True, but it points to a much more insidious major flaw of the Legion: they don't have any industry. Since Caesar is an utter retard who turns everyone into slaves, everyone is working Pol Pot tier jobs under his leadership, so the Legion has 0 industry to make ammo or guns, which is why they're trained to fight with sticks and blades, and why they have to scavenge guns off of dead enemy soldiers if they ever want to use them.

What a pathetic fucking faction, muh Hegelian dialectic and Caesar can't even establish decent weapon manufacturing, his entire anti-technology stance is a massive cope to hide the fact his regime is too shit to create the slightest industry.

>>3810097
The Mojave is only the extreme frontier of the NCR where they cannot afford to send many troops, whereas the Legion is sending most of its forces on it because they don't have a real civilization, they're just nomadic raiders with strong discipline.

>>3810138
The NCR *can* send more troops they just actively don’t *want* to. There is a key difference there.
>>3809304
I’m sorry what is your exact issue with House?

>>3810097
They're only weak in the Mojave because it's on the frontier and most of their army is defending their massive empire at home. The legion isn't immune to this either, Lanius is skeptical of the Mojave campaign because his last campaign was a drawn out slog on the Legion's frontier and resulted in a messy victory. Similar to a Russia and the Winter War.

>>3810146
>There is a key difference there.
The difference is that they're an actual democracy, the corrupt individuals can't just do whatever they want and need to stay in the shadows, and sending too many to die in the Mojave when it was supposed to be easy would be very unpopular. And still, it shows that a fraction of the NCR can destroy the main force of the Legion.

>I’m sorry what is your exact issue with House?
I'll never understand House stans. The man is objectively a psychopath without the slightest shred of compassion for any human being, all his goals are self-centered and they only can produce good outcomes as an unintended outcome, not a main reason, and he's extremely petty and vengeful.

Rapid fire facts: He personally destroyed the lives of countless people living in the Strip when he woke up, and murdered and exiled anyone who wouldn't submit to his rule. He replaced all those individuals with raiders, some being literal cannibals, and used all his money to only build casinos to make more money and armaments to remain in power, the man is stupid rich, he used more than 800k caps in the last year alone to find the chip, but couldn't spare anything to stop people starving and dying of thirsts and diseases right outside the gate when he's responsible for their plight. He murders every single King in his ending if they dared to make peace with NCR which he considers a "betrayal". If Primm had an NCR sheriff, he imposes extremely heavy taxes on them as a vindictive punishment despite them not having one anymore. He genuinely calls you a whore if you kill him and tell him it was for NCR.

Mr House is nothing but the tyrannic leader of a corpocracy with only himself at the end, and only his stupid goals matter. His well composed facade is nothing more than that, he is in truth short-sighted, petty, vindictive, vengeful, and holds no regard for any human life. All his "plans" are bogus sci-fi shit for Star Wars nerds, not actual plans.

>>3810450
You sound like someone who would've protested the space program.

>>3810450
Mr House stans get dazzled by the screens and luxury, and stop thinking at that. While the true House is the rotting, putrid, hateful corpse hurling insults and curses in the back. The man is the worst kind of person you could want for a leader: an unchecked vengeful tyrant with an army of death robots at his command, who holds nothing dear but his own autistic dreams. Even before the bombs, he was this way.

No House stan has ever proposed the slightest plan on how a House led Mojave would work. The man bullshits you with muh space travel in 100 years, but won't spare a single thought to improving the life of anyone on Earth. At BEST, and I'm being incredibly generous, the House ending nets you to be a brain in a jar in 100 years who will remain forever in the Lucky 38 in space with nobody else than House and his sex slave securitrons. Even the independent ending is more sensible and good for the people than House.

>>3810452
A more correct example would be the stadium built by the Saudis on the back of slaves being worked to death. Nobody died of slave labor at NASA, though some like Thomas Baron were murdered for knowing and saying too much.

>>3810450
>He genuinely calls you a whore
True. Except. Was Mr.House wrong? Why wouldn't he call you a whore? The Courier wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Maude the granny hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Jimmy the niggerfaggot hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Sweetie the cute hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Fisto the robotic hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Dazzle the mildly retarded hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Beatrix the Ghoul cowgirl hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Joana the depressed hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Old Ben the creepy male hooker, wasted thousands of caps repeatedly hiring Santiago the stinky gay Mexican hooker. And this is to say nothing of his severe addiction to turbo, opiates, jet, alcohol, psycho, buffout, Nuka Cola Quantums and mentats. Moreover he prefers to drink shitty toilet water instead of drinking clean water like civilized people. On top of the fact that he's a 3 INT cannibal who took the Confirmed Bachelor perk at level 2 and then he betrayed Goodsprings and he even sided with the NCR in this scenario? That's called being a whore, sorry. House said nothing wrong

> All his "plans" are bogus sci-fi shit for Star Wars nerds, not actual plans
I disagree, I trust the plan. What could go wrong?

>>3812166
>What could go wrong?
House has shown himself to be ass at politics hence the fact that he is more screwed than the NCR in the Mojave at the start of the game.

>>3808505
The NCR is stuck at their outposts because their high command is completely fucking retarded, which the game tells you.
>Freeside is a shithole crawling with drug addicts and thieves, the legion caused this
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA, what the fuck? are you baiting? That statement is so fucking stupid that it hurts.
>>3809304
>all their orders are to stand still and wait because Oliver is afraid they'll get stomped by the Legion if they make any move
This is completely wrong and retarded, pure headcanon.
The rangers at the outpost closest to cottonwood cove tell you that they would love to send the legion back over the river, but brass thinks they're not a threat so their orders are to stay here. Oliver is sending everything to hoover dam because he wants the political clout that would come from winning a straight slugging match at the dam. NCR supply lines in the mojave are weak to due to his extreme selfishness.
>>3810138
>The Mojave is only the extreme frontier of the NCR where they cannot afford to send many troops,
Ah, this statement confirms that you're a secondary retard who has never played the game. It's hammered over your head constantly that the NCR could send more troops but isn't due to pure incompetence. Their heavy troops are protecting brahmin barons in california instead of fighting the legion. Their veteran rangers are dicking around in Baja.
>>3810450
>corrupt individuals can't just do whatever they want and need to stay in the shadows
President kimball is openly corrupt, he get his retarded friend general oliver in power over the far more competent colonel hsu. The game tells you this but it's blatantly obvious that you've never actually played the game or engaged the material, basically everything you've said is comically incorrect
Subhuman secondaries like you are the cancer killing fallout. Stop shitting up the board with your horrible posts and suck on a shotgun, tourist.

>>3810138
And yet that “pathetic faction” still made the NCR shit their pants and fall apart.

>>3810450
>main force of the Legion
The main force of both the legion and NCR was not in new Vegas. They were in arizona and California respectively.

>>3809304
This is the most blue-pilled, lack of agency statist sentiment I’ve ever read. If supporting a government simply because it exists regardless of its effect on its own populace is your goal then you’ve spiraled into the same nihilistic delusions that anarchists do just with different rationalizations. You are living proof that some people should not have any say in a nation’s policies due to being too eager to prop up tyrannies out of nothing more than social pressure. You are cattle, a slave.

>>3810452
space is fake and gay.

>>3809304
>a strong military and government is necessary for human development
By this logic you would support the Legion as they have the most centralized government and a majority of their free populace consists of military personnel with the skills to survive in the wilderness and fight effectively regardless of equipment. The NCR is over-reliant on untrained conscripts to the neglect of professional military personal and is run by weak politicians who are too easily influenced by the donations of caravan companies and brahmin barons at the expense of the integrity of the state. A “strong military and government” is the complete opposite of what the NCR provides.
>the only reason towns like Goodsprings haven’t been killed by raiders
So you never actually played the game based off your sentiments since Goodsprings doesn’t have a single raider gang within proximity to its region on the map. Its biggest issue are Powder Gangers, former NCR convicts shipped in by the NCR itself to work rail lines who ended up taking over their correctional facility and murdering travelers. Goodsprings’ biggest problems are a direct result of the NCR itself, and on an NCR ending most of their elderly are forced to abandon their homes due to inability to pay their tax rates. How does splitting local communities provide stability? Ghost Town Gunfight is evidence of how capable the town is at forming militias so NCR “protection” is completely unneeded as they don’t provide anything the town lacks.

>>3803528 (OP)
retarded chuds think people mocking them is representation

>>3812374
>no this character was mocking you!!!
Shut up faggot

>>3812362
You literally travel to outer space in Fallout 3 so you're wrong in this context

>>3812370
>Ghost Town Gunfight is evidence of how capable the town is at forming militias
I'm the first guy to throw stones and grenades at the NTR and by no way am I defending them, fuck the NTR. But this is bullshit.
Trudy isn't even interested in fighting against them to begin with, and everyone else has to be convinced too. Ringo isn't even a Goodsprings resident, he just happened to be in bad terms with the powder gangers. Doc is too old to fight. Chet is kike. The two random settlers only fight if you get Trudy on board, meaning they don't care about getting fucked by the powder gangers, they care about simping for trudy. Easy Pete is a faggot. Ghost Town Gunfight is evidence of how the MC can nag Goodsprings residents into helping themselves, nothing more.

>>3812431
That's how the average person is in real life. Most people are natural-born fencesitters, they need a leader to galvanize them.

>>3812431
Still doesn’t change the fact that the major threats the town faces from other people are all because of NCR incompetence. Without the NCR the most dangerous thing Goodsprings has to deal with are ambitious geckos. The community is so functional that complete anarchy and lack of any government from a Yes Man ending is their best ending.

>>3813185
With no NCR in the Mojave by the alternate 2281 the Legion would rule it and the town would be mostly empty anon.

>>3813215
Depends on how well the locals can resist a Legion advance. A 2281 without NCR presence in the Mojave also means the Legion can’t form alliances based off of anti-NCR sentiment. This means no alliance with the Khans, they have nothing to tempt Fiends with, and the Brotherhood is active rather than overly cautionary. Hanlon managed to thwart a Legion assault on the dam just by abusing mine placement while sniping, so it really isn’t that far fetched to suggest that a handful of competent individuals could achieve similar results in a scenario where the Legion invades a Mojave bereft of any NCR presence. Prior to the Mojave campaign, the Legion’s experience is in conquering and assimilating backwards primitive tribals who are largely inexperienced with warring against more technologically advanced civilizations. I doubt that the Legion would be able to handle Securitrons with any degree of effectiveness, and given House’s understanding of how to play people off he’d be more than capable of organizing effective alliances and agreements among local groups to create an organized front against the Legion.

>>3812431
>Easy Pete is a faggot
Now hol' up here, pardner. You'z gonna get u'sef killed using that dang dem der ol' dynamite I buried harder than my failed prospecting career god dangnit. You'z best show me that them there splosives skills of yours else you be fighting them powder gangers using that dang ol' foot o yours as a trigger finger, what with them arms being blown off n all.

>>3813401
>The denizens of Clark County in this alternate timeline 2277 are going to spawn organized battalions of men to fight the Legion.
kek, no

>>3813634
Yes.

>>3813637
>Jacobstown
Wouldn’t fight
>Goodsprings
Wouldn’t fight, would flee
>Primm
Wouldn’t fight, would be ruled over
>Nipton
Would fight, a platoon at best, would fail
>Searchlight
Would fight, a platoon at best, would fail
>Novac
Would fight, a platoon at best, would fail
>BoS
Would fight, a battalion at best, would be pushed from Helios One and destroyed during later pacification operations, would fail.
>Boulder City
Would fight, a platoon at best, would fail.
>Bitter Springs
The Khans would be neutral per OTL 1st Battle are non-factors.
>Nellis AFB
The Boomers would be neutral per OTL 1st Battle are non-factors.
So your whole argument comes down that House who can’t be assed to pacify Freeside that his partitions and logistics trail for the Strip use. Or can’t be assed to pacify the Fiends in Outer Vegas even in the endings he wins is going to suddenly gain the ability to organize, train, equip thousands of men to mount a months long defensive campaign of a city with no ability to internally resupply or equip? Or that his few hundred robots with 9mm submachine guns are going to be able to indefinitely do point defense? Against thousands of offensive attackers?
lmao ok

>>3810450
>>3810455
https://youtu.be/5_XkKhGFGEU?t=414

NCRfags, swerve.

>>3812253
>>3812268
>>3812279
>>3812355
>>3812370
The immense amount of cope with bad faith bullshit here.

>>3812431
This. Also it shows how much they're unprepared to even handle a very small band of very shitty raiders. What anarchists aka retards always forget, is that the moment you get enough riches or just get unlucky, an actually powerful faction is going to notice you and kill you.

If we want anything past a very primitive village, we need governments, simple as. Malding trannies will call their government something else, but it will still be a government. Anarchist "everyone for themselves" places will always be between shitholes and poor, and will never advance.

Governments are a necessity long-term, governments having flaws isn't an argument to throw the baby with the bathwater.

>>3813215
This. It amazes how many retards pretend the Legion doesn't exist, that it's only "muh NCR incompetence". The only reason Caesar has a "solution" to propose to 70 IQ niggers is because he created the majority of the problem in the first place. The Fiends and Khans by themselves would have been easy target practice, it's the army of unlimited suicidal rabid tribals under the megalomaniac psychopath trying to get some "glory" before he dies that's an issue.

>>3813993
The only people who cry out “bad faith” is faggots who don’t have a rebuttal.

Weak men seeking strong men/father figures.

>>3803916
Why can this happens IRL?

Pater Mars be praised!

>>3803528 (OP)
probably because you are not a chud and therefore these idiots don't appeal to you, or anyone with common sense.

Doesn't help that the first real exposure to The Legion is them burning down an entire town and leaving survivors out on crosses to suffer. Real bad first impression

I just think they're cool because they obliterate the culture of anyone they conquer and assimilate them

>>3803528 (OP)
>le roman inspired faction
>only values are larping, slavery, and fuck wimminz
>they act like barely organized tribal raider rape gangs instead of a civic society
Was it the biggest fumble of world building in an RPG this millennium? Or were Sawyer and Avellone just doing a heckin epic takedown of right wingers? I thought it was hilarious when I first played the game and the biggest threat to a massive industrial country and a gorillionaire tech tycoon's sci fi robot army turned out to be a bunch of guys in football pads hanging out in yurts eating iguanas.

>>3814941
I'm a Chud and I despise them, the NCR is the only sensible choice. Yes-Man is second, House third, and Legion dead last.

>>3814982
The Legion is only a threat because they're in vast numbers compared to this tiny frontier portion, and the NCR has incompetent leaders. And the Legion was never meant to be a sensible choice, the cut content would just show a tiny speck of reason in all the madness but nothing more. The Legion was always intended as a 98% evil 2% justified faction.

>>3805710
New Vegas was not nuked, legion comes from Arizona.

>>3814996
>never meant to be a sensible choice
I suppose besides the fact that they seem OP for their tech level, which I guess can be explained away with numbers, they're just not inspiring to me as a piece of the story. They're essentially basic bitch raiders with red paint on. Their culture doesn't just seem worthwhile to explore at all, even as a wild crazy guys. There's just not anything original or deeper happening.

>>3809231
Kino, could have looked better though.

>>3815012
>Their culture doesn't just seem worthwhile to explore at all
It's kind of the point, they have no culture, it's just band of tribes having their culture butchered by a megalomaniac psychopath for his own personal satisfaction. Caesar directly tells you he "likes the servile attitude" if you suck him off on your first meeting, he just wants to be served, all the talk of creating anything worthwhile is a smokescreen for braindead tribals.

NCR is built on the same premises as the old world, so it's non-starter. They are good old libtards with no vision.

>>3815019
Because tyrannies, not even dictatorships which is a neutral term, actual tyrannies with a sick twisted fuck at the helm, have never been tried before. Or anarchy for that matter, never before has a government crumbled and left the people fend for themselves.

It's such a retarded quote from Caesar and House, how utterly braindead do you have to be to believe it after thinking of it for 5 seconds? If anything new needs to be attempted, it's not coming from any of the other 3 major factions.

Caesar will enslave and kill everyone for his own ego, before he dies and everything falls into anarchy. House will continue to mistreat everyone, kill and punish everyone he dislikes (as seen against the Kings and Primm if they had any sort of alliance or peace with the NCR), not see value in anyone's life (instead murdering women and children to put in cannibal raiders instead for profit), all to satisfy his autistic technological desires in-between sessions with his robot sex slaves. Wow what grand novelty.

Only the NCR has vision, because they're the only ones pushing for civilization, a higher state than just surviving, where everyone is welcome to thrive.

>>3815012
Their whole thing is every tribe in the legion lost its culture so it could become this massive death ball that would turn the entire usa into one group.

Is it weird that ultimately I think each ending in new vegas would lead to prosperity in the long term

>>3815025
NCR is simply the worst choice, they will succumb to the same mistakes as the old world. Yes, all the other factions are better and can lead to something better. Caesar's ego is superior to all-consuming greed of humanity.
Legion is more of a civilization than NCR is.

>>3815037
>they will succumb to the same mistakes as the old world.
There is no reason to assume that. Having some corrupt officials and nobles doesn't mean your country is bound to catastrophically die. Rome wouldn't have lasted 10% of the way if that was true.

>Yes, all the other factions are better and can lead to something better.
Plain wrong

>Caesar's ego is superior to all-consuming greed of humanity. Legion is more of a civilization than NCR is.
That's just ragebait.

At least you're further proving that anti-NCR arguments (compared to the other choices) don't exist. Spamming "this is very dangerous to our democracy" level bs from House and Caesar won't change that fact, having petty and vengeful psychopaths in charge with no regards for human life and no desire to do anything but satisfy their own selfish dreams that don't include anyone else benefiting is stupid and indefensible.

Even if the legion takes the dam, aren't they going to effectively be stonewalled by the ncr in their home territory?

>>3815043
Yeah. The entire point of the Legion at this stage is that they cannot beat an actual civilization. They're overwhelmingly stupid and ignorant, have no industry, no autonomous production, and are utterly fucked if they can't pillage for an extended period. Caesar knows the Legion is fucked, so he wants one last desperate conquest before he dies to satisfy his ego before he dies and everything goes to shit.

The Legion is a brutal hierarchical system that disincentivizes personal expression, so no new methods will come from the inside, only suicidal bloodlust at the enemy is tolerated. Their numbers will quickly dwindle against any civilization, and their lack of autonomy makes infighting inevitable as soon as things go bad, everyone will try to steal for themselves.

>>3815040
You are just a midwit. You are gobbling up and spewing NCR propanda like it was real life and you had a stake in it.

>>3815045
I like to assume the legion has autonomy and stuff going on behind the scenes, but we're not given much in game so yeah... Shit's fucked.

>>3815045
Legion is winning in the game and NCR needs courier, who is basically a god, to intervene. They have infiltrated deeply into NCR.
You just made up the meme that Legion doesn't have industry or whatever with no evidence.

>>3815056
The Legion can't mass produce armor or firearms.
The NCR can. Simple as.

>>3815048
Kek

>>3815052
>>3815056
>with no evidence.
The reason Legion uses only melee weapons for 99% of its soldiers is because they have no industry and cannot get a reliable supply of guns and ammo. They're authorized to pick up guns from fallen enemies, they just can't manufacture them, because they have no industry.

>>3815093
This. I doubt the Legion can even produce one gun.

>>3815095
So they're basically fucked long term. They'd be in a much ebtter place if someone taught them how to make guns. They'd have good melee and ranged combat with long term stability, and not have to go around looting vaults and other civilizations.

>>3815030
Yes I understand that, but from a role player's perspective there's nothing engaging to me about playing along with or even against the murderhobo memesters even though I'm usually for the evil factions in games. I reckon the idea is that the legion in the Mojave is just the colonial frontier war party of the Legion, but it all feels very shallow in the way it's laid out. Caesar doesn't deal with any political trouble from the home front, he never has any trouble supplying his supposedly massive army in the middle of a wasteland, you never see any non-combatant legion citizens that are trading or otherwise profiteering in the neutral zone or trying to swing locals into allies, no-one from what is presumably the less violent core of Caesar's empire shows up. It just doesn't come off as real as the other people in the wasteland, there's no effort put in to making it seem like a reasonable evolution of human civilization. It's a one-note society that you're just expected to believe is functioning solely on hate without asking any questions.

>>3815040
>There is no reason to assume that
Why? The NCR is already making the same mistakes. Corruption, bureaucracy, ineffectiveness. Democracy failed.

>>3815097
They'd be fucked in the long term even with industry because of slavery. You can't trust slaves with really complicated long term projects like space travel or making a dam because you'd need to educate them or have someone who is educated watch them like a hawk so they don't fuck something up or sabotage anything.
Naturally over time (just like in our own world) people would start saying fuck you and rebel and reform society.
The most dangerous man is one that has nothing to lose after all.

>>3815111
I don't think the legion is particularly interesting if you're anything but a poor ass tribal desu.
We also got shafted and the legion didn't get much content.

>>3815097
>So they're basically fucked long term
Yeah. Caesar never fought for any people or group, he doesn't care what happens to them after he dies, so he never taught them to be autonomous, to live long-term, only to serve him and only him. He never prepared the Legion for after him, didn't designate an official successor, burned to intended death his most faithful second in command to have him take the blame for the defeat...

The idea of the Legion could have been good, if lead by a psychopathic but somewhat rational man like House who was interested in building actual civilization out of tribals instead of autistic technology stuff, it would have made for a grey but very compelling character. But the actual Legion is just the egomaniac dream of an insane midwit who was born lucky enough to have books about the Romans in his hands.

Your first interaction with Caesar can literally go "I wanna be your bitch" "Good, I like that, keep it up". This is not a man who wants advisors, equals, or successors, only servants.

>>3815111
Yeah, the Legion was intended to have a bit more to convince you, but as is, only a brainwashed traumatized conquered tribal would join them, and that's not the Courier.

>>3815113
>Democracy failed.
So did tyranny and anarchy. Tyranny with a zest of technology like South Korea's corpocracy isn't anything good either, it's atrocious.

It's utterly unreasonable to say the NCR genuinely cannot come back from the relatively mild corruption and incompetence affecting it, there is a reason only House and Caesar are saying this, because they're bullshitting you.

>>3815119
funny how caesar is one of the weakest aspects of the legion but his men worship him so hard

>>3815119
>So did tyranny and anarchy
Neither of which were responsible when the bombs fell. Democracy was.

>>3815123
>Elections are the reason for nukes, tyrannies would never use nukes irresponsibly
Bait used to be believable

>>3815122
Indeed, Caesar is only held high in the esteem of illiterate tribals, not that of anyone who knows civilization.

>>3815126
Not bait, just genuinely thinking you are a retard in wanting a system like the NCR back when a system like the NCR is the reason why the world turned to shit.

>>3815093
>>3815095
Nice headcanon. Vast majority of high ranking legionnaires have guns in game at it's usually trail carbine, which means they are not picking it off NCR soldeors.
What does it say about ncr if Legion has nothing and they still are kicking their ass quite easily?

>>3815129
>>3815134

>>3815126
>Elections are the reason for nukes, tyrannies would never use nukes irresponsibly
The latter is a hypothetical, the former is a fact.

>>3815115
have you even played the game or at least seen Caesar's speeches on youtube? Caeser intends to reform the legion in his lifetime.

>>3815144
you can't answer any argument with any reason. typical libtard. go back to /lgbt/ tranny.

>>3815149
Haha, yeah I bet you believe when politicians say they're your friend and on your side, too.
Also the only interactions I have with him when I play the game is blasting his head off with my buddy Boone.

>>3815149
>Caeser intends to reform the legion in his lifetime.
I plan to create an industry that sells pink unicorns that can time travel. There, I said I plan something, that makes it true, no need for evidence, join me/Caesar/House now.

>>3815150
Every bullshit you spout has been answered countless times already, you're only using the jewish tactic of spamming 10 retarded lies every post demanding a debunk and then parading as if you won when others catch on to your niggery game. Caesar has diarrhea and the Legion will extinguish the sun and the US will be nuked again by Lanius and Vulpes will force everyone to become furries, there, debunk all that or I won and you're peepee poopoo, god i love arguing with niggers.

>>3815144
>NCR fag can’t cope with the fact that a system exactly like the NCR is the reason why the bombs fell.
lol

>>3815153
Based. But yeah I'm so tired of the subhumans constantly acting as if Caesar or House's words are divinely inspired and should be taken as unquestionable prophecies.

>>3815154
look at you getting all hysterical. go inject more estrogen into your buddy and leave rest of us alone.

>>3815129
Do you unironically believe that the world would be a better place if it were run by murderous tribals who lived exclusively off of pillaging?

>>3815156
>>3815153
such an obvious samefag.

>>3815158
>WeLl yEaH, dEmOcRaCy = nUkEs, ThE LeAdEr oF ThOsE MuRdErOuS TrIbAlS SaId sO
They're subhumans. They rapid fire both retarded lies and social shaming 24/7 and demand essays to debunk every single bullshit they spout. They barely pretend to have arguments.

>>3815161
that's the point the devs are making thesmelves, maybe you just hate Fallout games.

A lot of hope and faith admittedly goes into following any of these factions desu

>>3815159
What evidence do you have that I'm samefagging and what counter evidence would convince you otherwise?
Or do you just not like when people disagree with you and don't care about the truth?

>>3815162
>Akshually, Fallout is a critique of capitalism
Sure buddy.

>>3815164
Not that much for NCR, Yes-Man is a power fantasy, and the 2 others are just being a cuck to someone else's power fantasy, pure delusions.

>>3815165
if it's you cheer-leading him then that would be even more pathetic than samefagging.
>>3815166
>>Akshually, Fallout is a critique of capitalism
>Sure buddy.
epic trolling, princess.

>>3815168
>if it's you cheer-leading him then that would be even more pathetic than samefagging.

Am I stupid or are you because I can't make heads or tails about what you're trying to say.

>>3815169
He's just pilpuling. If we're the same guy, then it's bad. If we're not, then it's bad too. It's retarded bait, from the same nog who pretends to unironically believe that having elections fundamentally means nukes, and that the only solution is to get a genocidal slaver in charge to stop it.

>>3815161
>lies
What was in charge when the bombs fell? Oh that’s right, it was democracy.

>>3815154
a pro democracy fag posting pics of rabid niggers when democracy is the reason you have to put up with them is peak irony.

>>3815158
Calling out the retardation of the NCR doesn’t mean I’m pro legion. The system of the NCR failed and that’s a fact.

LARPing as a modern developed democracy in a world where most people have been reduced to basically tribal living standards is doomed to fail. An advanced society like that requires a certain level of sustainable material development, industrial and energy production, which NCR doesn't appear to have. It's mostly an agrarian society where cattle barons hold significant power trying to pretend it's 1950s America. It's like isekaing a modern city into the medieval period, it might maintain the modern lifestyle for some time but it will inevitably end up being brought down to the world average as resources run out. It makes much more sense to take a few steps back but remain a step ahead of the average (raiders and tribals). The slave-owning centralized despotism of the Legion is much more sustainable in the material conditions of the Wasteland, having a chance to naturally evolve into an increasingly advanced society.

>>3815184
That entire post ignores that the NCR built itself up, nothing was isekaied, they made a great society by behaving like human beings instead of raiders. The sheer length of unjustified to unreasonable headcanons one has to make to shit on the NCR is always fascinating.

A good society CAN be built and already has been. The NCR has shown the way, there is no excuse for tyranny or anarchy, the only possible valid competitor to the NCR would be another society with more positive qualities, which doesn't exist in-game.

People want to and will develop society no matter what, this is human nature, because societies allow for prosperity, security and more overall freedom. There is no justification for butchering countless innocents and waiting for another society to appear when the NCR is right there and has minimal flaws.

>>3815184
The NCR doesn’t even have sustainable material development which makes it funnier. All of their technologies are repurposed and scavenged from groups they interact with but with no means to mass produce them. Their power armor is scavenged from fallen brotherhood paladins and downgraded to run on shitty batteries as they lack the means to manufacture fusion cores, their vertibirds were taken from Navarro after the Enclave was defeated in 2 and they have a very finite amount, and they can’t even manufacture robots. Even their firearms are repurposed pre-war era guns. The only thing they’ve managed to mass produce is paper for their failed currency and brahmin along with farming crops. They’re basically a conglomerate run by greedy farmers and businessmen.

>>3815187
Their “society” is built from imperialistically conquering and forcing neighboring cities into their republic and running tribals off their land. You haven’t played any Fallout or are just being willfully ignorant as there is nothing remotely peaceful or civilized about the NCR. Aaron Kimball is a literal warmonger who ordered for the deaths of innocent women and children at Bittersprings and their largest companies commit mass murder of small businesses so they can buy them out at rock bottom price. The NCR is nothing more than a violent corporate oligarchy that takes whatever they want from the weak.

>>3815192
>Their “society” is built from imperialistically conquering and forcing neighboring cities into their republic

This system is the foundation of western society - the origin of the gamer station you are typing this out on and the microwave tendies you are munching on

>>3815192
>Khan apologist
If you dig that deep you're going to end up on the other side of the planet. Bitter Springs wasn't intended, but it was deserved, shouldn't have taught your kids to shoot to kill literal children whose families did nothing to you.

The NCR integrates others because it's a decent way to rebuild society and acquire new talents into the NCR, which is a meritocracy. Killing hostile tribal raiders who refuse to cooperate is based, and for all the "muh taxes" talk, towns like Goodsprings or Primm get much more prosperous and safe thanks to the NCR, and would have been eradicated by the legion before the game without the NCR.

The barons are an issue, but the "sneakily murdered people" by them aren't even 0.1% of the number that would have died without NCR intervention.

>>3815187
You just can't build a lasting 20th century democracy in what is essentially the iron age with some limited scavenge lying around anon, even if you behave like a saint. You will inevitably run into bottlenecks and degenerate. Humanity develops in stages based on the tools and resources available to it. It's not "despotism = good", it's "despotism is the next natural step after tribal anarchy, while modern democracy is 10 steps removed from it".

>>3815206
You keep acting like the NCR is 5 years old or hasn't already provably achieved very high standards. You keep saying that they "can't", when they already did. And no we don't need tyrannical insane leaders, Germany went from Weimar to the most advanced country on Earth in just a few years. It's utterly inane to keep repeating Caesar's midwit bullshit of "me raping the NCR was prophesied in the stars, it's all Hegelian you see, I must get sex slaves and genocide people, it's fate or something".

The only remotely relevant resource issue is the potential food crisis in a few years according to the doc at McCarran, and that is being actively worked on.

>>3815206
Democracy is the fourth and penultimate degradation of government, before tyranny.

>>3815196
You fail to realize that the NCR is no better than the Legion when you acknowledge this fact. The only non-imperialist options are House and Yes Man. You’re supporting tyranny and justifying it with “well.. that’s just how things are”. You’re genuinely unintelligent

>>3815214
You're an anarchist, that makes you a clinical retard. Governments aren't a choice, they're a fundamental part of human nature, they happen organically, they're not chosen. Every place that exists will need resources, if it lasts it will grow, and it will need to trade, it will need cooperation, and defense from both the wildlife and other potential groups. Governments are unavoidable whenever you go past caveman village tier survival.

House is the worst possible tyrant in the game, petty and vengeful, entirely immoral (even Caesar can be saddened by Arcade's death, House cares for no one), has an army of literal robots that can't disobey orders, and his brain will eventually deteriorate making him take terrible decisions by likely falling to paranoia.

Yes-Man is pointless anarchy, the NCR will come back one day or the other.

>>3815187
NCR grew as dictatorship and is declining as it turned into "democracy".

>>3815196
No, it's not, British didn't have to conquer africa and take wakanda tech from them to start an industrial revolution in rural England.

>>3815214
>NCR is no better than the Legion when you acknowledge this fact
Boy, a republic where people have a degree of political rights and personal freedom, median wealth is the highest in the known world, public infrastructure like electricity and running water are present, and a strong industrial sector boosts quality of life? Or a blood cult that revolves around a single delusional man where you're raised from birth to live in a filthy tent and die trying to zerg rush riflemen with an rusty machete you found on the ground? How can I make a decision? THESE THINGS ARE EQUIVALENT!!!!

This ties into my other post about how the legion is uninteresting (unless (you)'re some kind of delusional anarkiddie) from a player's perspective. There's really no in universe chain of events for you, a middle class wagie in the Mojave, to go associate with these brutal savages without severe mental illness being part of your character's background. It's the equivalent of those American retards who joined ISIS back in 2013.

>>3815225
Have you ever heard of a little thing called the Rome? Ironically, it was closer to the NCR than the Legion. Also, yes, Britain is a tiny island, they did in fact need a ton of colonial territory and raw resources to fuel their oversized war machine, what are you fucking dense? Half the reason for the American revolution was the constant exploitation of colonial resources.

>>3815236
True. There is a reason more people earned the Steam achievement for playing from start to finish in Hardcore mode than the achievement for just completing the Legion ending.

>>3815236
The legion should've been in a game where you start off as a tribal desu

>>3815243
Rome has nothing to do with "western society". Industrial revolution didn't necessitate conquest, they obviously made use of the land they were in control of already and expanded it, that doesn't really address anything.

>>3815134
>the vast majority of high ranked legionnaires have scavenged guns
Thanks for confirming my point.

>>3815175
>>3815184
>>3815189
>>3815192
>>3815206
REAL

Legion Pros:
>Tribals, Raiders, & Junkies are rehabilited towards building society again, whether through war or labor
>Survival of the Fittest is accelerated, ensuring only the best go on to participate in society as retired veterans, own wealth, & pass on their genes
>Strong Martial Cult whose priestesses are dedicated to child-rearing, ensuring long-term growth & perpetuation of the civilization
>Safe roads, trade, & towns
>Most victims are tribals living in absolute ignorance
>Reject over-reliance on technology, especially when it replaces human efforts entirely (robits)

NCR Pros:
>Basic Bill of Rights seems to be in effect
>Expanded & Advanced commendably under two spiritually-educated Enlightened Despots
>Defeated large threats to the wasteland, although crime & raiding are still major problems
>Restarted some industries such as mass-livestock & firearms
>Usually don't directly attack independent communities when eyeballing their land

House Pros:
>Genius Intellect, Self-Made Autarch & Immortal
>Successor Personality Duplicate implied
>Wealth of technological, economic, manufacturing, legal, & scientific knowledge
>Seeks to avoid the mistakes of his peers in the pre-war oligarchy, many of which he would have observed first hand
>Able to civilize tribals through peaceful means

>>3815034
>prosperity
>long term
Impossible. War NEVER changes

>>3815371>>3815249

>Tribals, Raiders, & Junkies are rehabilited towards building society again, whether through war or labor
Not in the game, don't care
>participate in society
Not in the game, don't care
>Strong Martial Cult whose priestesses are dedicated to child-rearing, ensuring long-term growth & perpetuation of the civilization
Not in the game, don't care
>trade, & towns
Not in the game, don't care
>Most victims are tribals living in absolute ignorance
In the game most of their victims are innocent civilians
>Reject over-reliance on technology
"shitting in a hole is actually, uh, le based

>>3815454
Obviously didn't mean to reply to >>3815249

>>3815454
Lot of coped

>>3815236
Motherfucker the NCR takes over independent areas whether they want it or not and then buttfuck you with taxes. How is that free?

>>3815483
> How is that free?
It's free because 1, sooner or later, an enemy stronger than any bumfuck nowhere town will appear. Some kind of raiders, fiends, khans, or worse, the legion, will come to their doorstep, and they'll be fucked. Independence does not exist as long as other humans can physically get to where you are. And 2, the NCR doesn't treat you as a slave or below any other citizen, when you're annexed, you get the same rights as everyone else and can move through the ranks if you prove yourself. Primm is directly stated in the ending slides as becoming prosperous thanks to the NCR.

And the NCR is not shown to assrape anyone with taxes, their taxes are just necessary to maintain everything, build the infrastructure and provide protection. If you want assrape taxes, look for the Legion, or House who gives you a note you can read with ridiculous tax rates, and he also already imposes stupidly high tax rates on the Strip.

>>3815236
Average NCR citizens don’t have political rights or say, only their largest companies and Brahmin barons do. It’s like you never paid attention to the game or didn’t even touch it. All of their politicians and legal systems are bought out by the wealthy and their policies make the lives of their average citizens harder and more destitute.
>Heck displays how Brahmin barons force poorer farmers off their land by threat of lethal force in Beyond the Beef
>Completing Cass’s quest non-violently displays how entrenched the corruption of caravan companies really is in the NCR as their court system refuses to take measures to arrest the Van Graffs and Crimson Caravan and instead blackmails them to push for stronger trade routes in the Mojave
>Miners at Sloan explain how the NCR dollar is worth less than bottlecaps and that NCR companies intentionally pay workers in this currency to undercut costs
The major “rights” that NCR citizens have is that female citizens can be drafted and sign up for military service. That’s it. The government has no obligation to protect your land, enforce justice, or do anything that’s expected of a state under the NCR. Your daughters do have the right to engage in the opportunity of having their skulls cracked open by tribal war clubs though.

>>3815680
The NCR taxes Goodsprings so high on an NCR ending that their elderly populace is forced to abandon their own homes out of inability to pay their tax rates. Stop being flagrantly dishonest. The Legion on the other hand is the only faction that doesn’t engage in taxation since their slave labor provides everything the government needs. Free citizens in the Legion live objectively safer lives due to harsh enforcement of punishing banditry and their caravans never fear being raided due to association with the Legion.

>>3803528 (OP)
I'll use this thread as an excuse to ask, why do characters imply the NCR doesn't crush raiders/gangs unlike the Legion?
>President Tibbett is removed from office by a vote of no confidence following her "timid" response to the massacre of 38 NCR citizens at the hands of Mojave raiders. Her replacement, President Wendell Peterson, orders three battalions of NCR infantry into the Mojave.
>Kimball rose to prominence as the 'Hero of the Mojave' when he led a campaign of reprisals against tribals who dared to attack NCR citizens.
>Brutalized by the NCR, the once legendary Vipers and Jackals gangs have become little more than opportunistic, petty raiders.
Not to mention the entire Great Khan questline is about how the NCR has nearly wiped them out. I want to say its intentional, different characters have different perspectives and biases. They're ignorant of certain things, and fail to the see the big picture. Character A bitches that the "cattle barons" are holding troops back to defend NCR territory. Character B praises the Legion for defending their own territory in the same mananger, but for merchants instead of ranchers.

>>3816066
Oh no they live in a plutocracy with civil corruption corruption! Oh my goodness how horrible! Surely noone could ever possibly live a happy life like that!
I've got news for you buddy, your comfy basement dwelling life is fueled by a political machine just like that. But no, surely not having much political power but having upward mobility and a high basic standard of living is just as bad as being the meat slave of a megalomaniac tribal warlord! Fucking retard.
>NCR conscription
Not in the game, don't care

>>3816070
>their elderly populace is forced to abandon
Let's look at the real quote
>Goodsprings saw more trade along I-15 after NCR gained control of the Mojave Wasteland, but with that came a heavy burden of the Republic's taxes. Some old-timers, unable to handle the cost, were forced to move on, grumbling all the while.

So just like Primm, much more prosperous, but taxes because all government require some. Some neeting elders had to go somewhere else because they couldn't work, wow, inhuman truly.

>>3816145
Because the NCR while doing things when pushed, is full of goody two shoes. Bitter Springs was fully deserved, the Khans should be exterminated to the last, they train even their kids to murder NCR kids. But the NCR people not only regret what happened, they set up a refugee camp to help them, they won't accept what animals they are even when Bitter-Root tells them straight that they all deserved it.

>>3816177
This.

>>3803614
This totally tracks if you ever scope out what JESawyer does on Twitter.

All he does is talk about how he wishes bicycles were accepted ad mass transit, his weirdly specific scuba diver watches, and other faggy shit.

>>3816399
> he wishes bicycles were accepted ad mass transit
Would be incredibly based in an Aryan society, but in multiracial shitholes it's obviously suicidal.

>>3803614
/thread

>>3803614
To be fair, neither did Nietzsche. He just larped as a warrior aristocrat and made Chad vs Basedjak memes like people on Twitter.l do today.

>>3818148
Autocorrect absolutely destroyed my post, is this how Nietzsche felt when he was dying shitting himself?

>>3815113
>Corruption, bureaucracy, ineffectiveness. Democracy failed.
99% of the time dictatorships more corrupt, bureaucratic and ineffective than any democracy, and the only exception is fucking Singapore.

>>3818150
I don't get it

Wish they would make some analog to Celts or Germanics on the east coast tbqh.

>>3818277
There's plenty of shit-covered tribals on the east coast, speaking some combination of pigeon languages as garbled as proto-german and english. So yeah, I think that base is covered

>>3818311
>shit covered
The Romans got soap from the Gauls

>>3818311
Realistically the Celts and southern Germanics were pretty advanced, just not as densely populated. Their main forte was agriculture and metalworking, as well as developing swampland into farmland. They were not too dissimilar from later medieval Europeans after the ramifications migration era settled down.
If you think they are "shit covered tribals" you should probably open a history book anon.

>>3803614
the leader of the legion was a pussy nerd that wanted to larp as something he read in a book so it's pretty close

>>3812380
This is a fascinating phenomenon. They create an image to represent a position then astroturf it to saturation, but in the case where the position is correct, even from a limited perspective, the association becomes a positive one. The original intent becomes meaningless. You see the inverse in negative associations. They keep changing the socially acceptable terms for blacks because whatever they are know as colloquially eventually becomes a slur. The socially engineered terms all trend to the true, objective interpretation rather than the original intent. Neat stuff.

I wonder. If somehow the Legion survives, even after a civil war, what form it would it take, a republic, another empire? Even Caesar admits that his Legion is closer to the Gaul barbarians than actual Rome.

>>3803614
>>3816399
>>3818148
>>3818458
To be fair you need a very high IQ to understand why the Legion was born from a bunch of nerds like the the Followers

>>3818538
Immediate breakdown into as many tribes as there are power-hungry fucks, if Caesar loves Rome so much, he'd better be aware of the many times when hundreds of people declared themselves emperors at the same time and tried their luck (basically every centurion after winning one battle). Without anyone representing a legitimate authority, it would be a senseless bloodbath and end with between 5 to a couple dozen groups all becoming their own tribe again.

>>3815123
>Neither of which were responsible when the bombs fell. Democracy was.
Are we forgetting that the US by the time of of 2077 had basically transitioned into a authoritarian war machine ruled from the shadows by a small cabal? And that is was quite literally the last country to collapse pre-war and was only brought down when China nuked it?

House's comment about "Look out the window if you want to see the fate of democracies" is incredibly biased and technically not even correct in-universe.

>>3818584
>authoritarian war machine ruled from the shadows by a small cabal
Still a democracy.
>quite literally the last country to collapse pre-war
Irrelevant and you pulled this out of your ass.
At best you can argue that the US was the last country to still have access to fossil fuel.
At least some European and Asian countries were still active enough to have an (heavy) industry, despite lacking access to oil deposits.

>>3818551

I said, if somehow it managed to stay a coherent entity, like some remanant empire in Arizona.

The tribes of the Legion have been broken down, scattered to the Four Corners, assimilated over the course of decades. It's possible for some groups that were absorbed wholesale to re-emerge, coalesce again as a tribe, but the martial cult of the Legion is too all-encompassing for most tribals to revert. Would their be factionalism, gangs, etc., absolutely. But tribes, not for awhile. Lanius is clearly competent in multiple domains, Lucius has experience through observation to serve as an effective advisor, Gaius Magnus is implied through loot to be a rising star & capable of adapting technology without being penalized, while Vulpes is ruthless & cunning enough to destabilize any foes, internal or external. If all of them are dead, there are other Praetorians & Frumentarii back in Flagstaff, as well as other Centurions & even Legatii as mentioned by Caesar. Conflict is likely at that point between them, but the totalitarian culture of the Legion would ensure that the survivors would fall in line after a clear winner, just as was the case in Rome itself. Not to mention the question of Heirs Caesar likely sired throughout his years, presumably leaving them to be raised by the Priestesses of his cult. I'm pretty sure Hanlon also states that there is an established succession in place.
The only way the Legion would die out short of total attrition would be by way of stalling conquests & their slaves outnumbering their soldiers by a vast majority after a couple generations, as happened with Sparta. The way I see it, the hierarchy is essentially as follows:
Imperator Caesar
Primus Legatus Lanius
Praefectus Praetorio Lucius
Praefectus Frumentarii Vulpes Inculta
High Priestess of Mars (Represents His Heirs)
Consuls (Administration)
Legatii
Praetorians
Priestesses of Mars
Primus Pilum/Prime Centurions/Proto-Tribunes
Centurions
Vexillarii
Frumentarii
Retired Veterans
Decanii
Exploratores/Speculatores
Legionarii
Citizens
Dissolute/Civilians
Slaves
Captures
Profligates/Tribals

>>3803528 (OP)
The legion is my favorite faction. (unless you count House as a faction, which i dont.) I love the story behind them, (Sallow finding the tribals and using history books to carve out a civilization of larpers who are too retarded to even know that they are larping) His logic behind why he thinks the legion is the best choice for the Mojave isnt the best, but its a lot cooler and more believable than him saying "NCR bad and liberal degenerate. Legion tough and manly hurr durr" like they probably would make him say if Bethesda made the game. The outfits are perfect balance between Legionary and plain mad max slop. This plus the other faction being "America 2" means for me, it isn't even close. + No taxes, Bandits are crucifed. I would call them the best choice over House if Mojave was as dangerous as California in 1 and 2. And its fun to do evil stuff :)

>>3818744
>This plus the other faction being "America 2
>And its fun to do evil stuff :)
these two statements are at odds

>>3818584
>House's comment about "Look out the window if you want to see the fate of democracies" is incredibly biased and technically not even correct in-universe.
Always amazes me how few people realize House is full of shit. Even before the war, he was a ruthless scheming cunt who only got so far because he had no morals and lied as he breathed, he's a salesman. He's nothing more than a deranged psychopath who wants to play the space game while all of humanity starves. He criticizes the NCR for the barons corruption, then has the audacity to only make plans for them, the ultra-rich "I'll commercialize this medicine" "I'll build shit in space if you're a billionaire to join me"

>>3818605
It would still breakdown this way, it's impossible for the Legion to stay coherent when you can only arise to the highest ranks by being either supremely bloodthirsty, or extremely bloodthirsty and cunning. By definition, only the most evil and self-centered cunts have arisen to the top.

>>3818744
>+ No taxes, Bandits are crucifed.
Legion has taxes, the only ending that doesn't is Yes-Man. And the NCR does execute raiders.

>>3816177
>upward mobility
>in a corporate oligarchy where average citizens are run off their land and impoverished by the upper class
It’s big club anon, and you aren’t in it.
>muh basement dwellers
So not only can you not read but you’re also fighting imaginary strawman that don’t exist instead of tackling real arguments. To be fair that’s par for the course for NCR fans.
>basic standard of living
Again, big club. There’s no evidence of any social programs that would guarantee high basic standard of living in the NCR. At most the Followers (a non-NCR affiliated independent organization) could help with education and medical treatment if you can’t afford to pay for either (which is most NCR citizens) and this bandaid for specific needs doesn’t address their failed fiat currency that loses value every year. Homelessness after having your land forcibly confiscated by brahmin barons, back breaking labor that you get paid for in NCR dollars that can pay you at most a few cans of pork n beans a day, and being drafted to fight some tribal encampment so caravan companies can make in-roads on new trade routes is all the average NCR citizen has to look forward to in life; stating otherwise is delusional NCR propaganda.
>the conscription doesn’t exist if I ignore it
You never completed Flags of Our Fowl Ups or are being extremely dishonest and lazy, could always be both. All of Mags’ group are conscripts. You WILL die to protect the interests of water merchants and caravan companies and you WILL like it.

>>3816384
>heavy burden
>burden being so high that the elderly have to leave due to inability to pay
>anon thinks this is a sign of “prosperity”
You are either psychopathic or retarded, possibly both. The only good ending for Goodsprings is on a Yes Man route as the town grows prosperous from the traffic along the highway. House is a close second since he actually helps their security rather than siphoning money from them. Also
>muh all government require some
House doesn’t tax his own citizens through income and neither do the Legion. According to the game itself your statement is a falsehood. The NCR is the only faction that taxes their own citizens and even then their rates are infamously high.
>this therefore justifies wanton greed and impoverishment
Your intentions are inherently evil and propped up through poorly conceptualized propagandistic talking points.

>>3818916
Again, all anti-NCR "people" are deranged. Primm gets prosperous thanks to the NCR influence, it's said right in the ending, there is no reason to think something similar wouldn't apply to Goodsprings, some NEET elders with no money of any kind don't invalidate that.

>House doesn’t tax his own citizens through income and neither do the Legion
The Legion literally enslaves you, fucking commie. "I might be a slave in a gulag but at least I'm not paying taxes since I don't have a wage!". House puts tremendous taxes on everyone he dislikes such as Primm if they get an NCR sheriff, he straight up assassinates all the Kings if they made peace with NCR, his own terms that you deliver to Oliver at the end include taxes, and to even enter the Strip you need to be loaded. And the casinos themselves tell you House has stupidly high taxes on their earnings.

Every single anti-NCR is some degenerate form of anarcho-commie who thinks all authorities are evil (unless they get to be the tyrant in charge or the right-hand man of that guy), you only reject the NCR because "noooo you can't tell me what to do!!!!". It's all mental illness, and I already know you'll write some "muh go outside/touch some grass" as all tranny commies do when their lies are exposed. Filthy pilpuling piece of shit.

>>3818902
>boohoo they have no upward mobility because of the man
This is so obviously real world commie shitheadism bleeding into your opinion. Legionnaires are automatically assigned as slaves and/or meat shields/breeding cows and thus are leagues behind the personal freedom of NCR citizens. Make something with your hands, build a skill, and start a business you lazy fag, big business is corrupt but it ain't all their fault you're a loser.
>social programs
It's not welfare that makes the NCR better to live in you retarded cocksucker, it's the fact that the NCR actually has the industrial capacity to produce arms and textiles and supplies and other materiel while the Legion are scavs that equip their army with new old stock from Academy Sports. NCR is clearly a comfy industrialized society.

>>3818902
>All of Mags’ group are conscripts.
This is straight up not true lmao all of them give you the reason why they joined. Quit it with the pilpul you liar

>>3818902
Also Mags is a singular noun, its possessive Mags's. "Fowl" refers to game birds, "foul" is the proper spelling for "foul ups". Please learn to read and write before you accuse others of being illiterate.

The Faustian Spirit; either you have it, or you don't.

>>3823652
>ambitious pursuit of knowledge, progress, and achievement, often at the expense of traditional values or ethical considerations. It is derived from the German legend of Faust, who makes a pact with the devil for unlimited knowledge and power. This spirit is often associated with exploration, innovation, and the desire to conquer new frontiers.
that applies more to house than the legion.

>>3803528 (OP)
Are you talking about the appeal of joining them, or the appeal of how they look? Their armor looks retarded as fuck.

>>3818920
You don’t seem to understand that in a society where regular citizens are priced out of competition there is no upward mobility. You’re prescribing fantasy notions of an equal economic playing field that doesn’t exist under the NCR and only exists in an Independent Vegas. Cass is a perfect example as to what happens to small independent business owners in NCR territory; mercs are sent to burn your equipment, kill your staff, and then they present you an offer to buy out your business for a fraction of its total value. Your only response to this fact is to ignore it and pretend the NCR is some magical 1950’s era economy that it objectively isn’t and then straw man institutional critics as communists despite the fact that you’re literally arguing for the government to tax its own citizens and centralize its power to provide services, which is communism. If the government inordinately taxing its own citizens to the detriment of their own purchasing power is a highlight of the NCR then it can’t be a capitalist merit-based even playing field where the impoverished are simply lazy since those are contrary. In any case, if “starting your own business” is of the higher priorities you’d like for average people, then there’s no reason to side with the NCR to begin with since their currency is in decline and their government requires extensive paperwork plus licensing fees, all of which are inherently detrimental to starting your own business. Either taxes are “necessary” for no specified reason nor expectation of accountability of their use and spending (because that’s what the NCR does, the citizens have no say in how their tax dollars are used, just an expectation to pay under threat of force), or they’re unnecessary and if they’re unnecessary then the NCR isn’t needed.

>>3818920
>welfare doesn’t matter
So.. what the hell is the point of paying taxes? If the NCR won’t provide services that their populace actually needs then why should they be taking so much money from their citizens? You’ve moved in every direction from “well, taxes are needed actually” to “well, if you can’t pay the taxes then you’re just lazy”. It’s baffling how you can look at what the NCR does to Primm and create some fantasy about “muh prosperity” that isn’t even present in the game but then throw a tantrum when the Legion taxes Primm a grand total of zero but also provides security, and in any case installing a sheriff can be done on every single ending yet you never consider putting Meyers in charge because you don’t actually care about whether or not people’s are improved and just want to suck the NCR’s cock. You also create fantasies about Goodsprings despite the fact their NCR ending is their second worst and Yes Man is the only option that causes the town to be prosperous. The NCR provides absolutely nothing of value to New Vegas.

>>3818920
>muh slaves
Only useless people who don’t have skills end up as slaves in the Legion, like you never even touched the game. If you can’t fight, smith, run caravans, train dogs or do really any form of skilled task then why should you be granted personhood? If the lives of individual citizens are of no value save for what they can provide for the state then that is an inherently pro-Legion mentality you cognitively dissonant midwit. You keep demonizing the average townsfolk of Goodsprings for being unable to pay tributaries yet paradoxically champion this as a sign of prosperity, which is a fallacy and by your logic of not actually giving a shit as to how people’s lives are impacted by government overreach there really isn’t any reason why they shouldn’t be sold into slavery for the government’s benefit. If people can be run off their land, their businesses shut down, and their value is only in how much money the government can pocket from them then there’s no effectively no difference between that and the government treating them as pack mules.

>>3818920
>muh industry
House is the only faction that has the capacity for self-sufficient industrial capacity and manufacturing. All of the NCR’s equipment is scavenged from tribes they interact with, their guns are pre-war, their vertibirds were looted from Navarro, and the only things they’ve managed to produce en mass are crops, cattle, and paper for their failed currency. House invented and built your pip-boy, he built every robot seen in game and out of game, he built rep-con’s rockets and made Vegas what it is. The only “comfy” industrial society is a House run Vegas where you can spend your gambling winnings on a new computer, a steak dinner, and a show before taking the elevator up to your luxury sweet for the night.

>>3823715
Do you honestly believe that all the highly standardized and high quality guns, ammunition, uniforms, armor, and food that supplies a large modern army that spans the west coast comes from dusty old warehouses from 300 years ago?

>>3823688
>>3823693
>>3823700
>>3823715
historical levels of seethe

>>3803528 (OP)
Conquer all before, enslave the women, make them pregnant. How many girls you think each of them has gotten to rape? Good times.

>>3823715
I hope this is bait.

>>3823700
>Only useless people who don’t have skills end up as slaves in the Legion
Why would you like the legion then, seeing as you'd be a slave?

>>3823700
Bro the legion kills even their elite when they get too old.
That's not sustainable. You can't have a society last more than a generation when you kill your experts and only cultivate combat skills to begin with.

>chuds out themselves as crypto socialists
Like clockwork
Anyways House is based

>>3824079
>chuds out themselves as crypto socialists
Who are you even replying to? Anyways, they call it national SOCIALISM for a reason, are you surprised chuds aren't disavowing the second half?

Only faggots love democracy.

>>3823779
I mean that’s literally the case in game. Yeah it’s stupid and unrealistic but so are lobotomized humans living without brains and the existence of ghouls. Unrealistic science fiction has implausible societies? My shock!
>>3823833
Ah yes, Fallout 2, the game where educated vault dwellers can degenerate into unga bunga tribals who believe in sky casinos within the span of 2 generations and a city consisting of nothing outside of prostitution and drug dealers somehow has a civilian populace with high enough birth rate to be self-sustaining. But yeah none of the NCR’s equipment is their own, even Shady Sands needed a GECK to form because the populace is too retarded to build their own houses, hunt and dig for water. Their populace is so incompetent that they can’t even figure out how to hunt radscorpions and beg the Vault Dweller to deal with it. Since day 1 the NCR has always been a mass of retards easily wowed by basic societal functions they’re grossly incapable of producing on their own.

>>3823842
Your concession is accepted seeing how you’ve run out of arguments after being exposed as a lying psychopathic retard who’s idea of societal prosperity consists of circular statism where an overtly corrupt government consistently allows their own laws to be subverted for the purpose of enriching the elite at the expense of everyone else. The NCR is just a modern Phoenicia, which makes it fitting that their main adversary are Romans.

>>3823833
>>3823842
>>3823962
>>3823991
Cope responses

>>3824405
>I mean that’s literally the case in game
But it's literally not? Is that the best you've got? Just making stuff up?

>>3824443
There is zero evidence to suggest that the NCR has the capacity to produce and manufacture its own firearms on a military level. The only NCR affiliated organizations that produce weapons are the Gun Runners and the Van Graffs, neither of which outfit the NCR’s military and prefer independent contracts with foreigners as opposed to distributing to their own citizens (in all likelihood this is because average NCR citizens are too poor to afford advanced weaponry) Imagine how cucked you have to be to fight and die for a republic that can’t even be assed to equip you with decent equipment because it’s “expensive” and it’s more profitable for their independent corporate giants to ship weapons to hostile neighboring states instead. Their power armor is scavenged from brotherhood paladins and downgraded to be shittier than a t-45 because they cannot figure out how to manufacture fusion cores. The NCR is a disunited conglomeration of hoarders and scavengers who are too retarded to produce anything on their own and just take equipment that other groups produce. Even the Rangers, their most elite fighting force, are an example of this as they’re an independent military force that was absorbed by the NCR whose traditions and techniques are not passed to other branches of their military. Their squad leaders have no clue how to preform ranger take downs, only Rangers preserve the technique. They’re Afghanistan tier of internal manufacturing capacity, influx of AK’s looted post-Soviet fall and infrastructure built by greedy Chinese companies that aren’t their own

>>3824603
>Imagine how cucked you have to be to fight and die for a republic that can’t even be assed to equip you with decent equipment because it’s “expensive”
But anon, this was how Rome functioned for centuries

>>3824443
>>3824603
Seriously, even the Legion utilizes plasma rifles and power fists among high ranking officers but the NCR is stuck with service rifles even for troops who are competent. They never utilize advanced weaponry nor make use of the mk.2 kevlar combat armor the Gun Runners distribute. Whatever capacity for advanced manufacturing exists within NCR territory is only on an individual company level, else their military would be making use of comparable equipment. Companies like the Van Graffs and the Gun Runners only exist for their own benefit and have no interest in supplying their equipment to Californians.

>>3824603
>There is zero evidence to suggest that the NCR has the capacity to produce and manufacture its own firearms on a military level.
There's a quest at camp McCarran where the gun runners are manufacturing arms for the NCR
Next you're going to tell me that private corporations manufacturing things on contract for the government doesn't count.

>>3824606
>e Legion utilizes plasma rifles
we're definitely making shit up now
>Companies like the Van Graffs and the Gun Runners only exist for their own benefit and have no interest in supplying their equipment to Californians.
Gloria outright says the opposite in Birds of a Feather. To her the NCR is far superior than the Legion could ever be.
The Gun Runners are NCR citizens (their HQ is in fucking LA) and are the largest individual supplier to the NCR army.

>>3824604
Rome was one of the earliest empires to mass equip their troops with advanced equipment of their time, what are even on? The Gauls couldn’t supply even half their troops with iron equipment because they lacked the organizational capacity for such an endeavor.

>>3824611
>Gloria says
Lol.

>>3824612
For centuries (which was most of their growth and conquest), the Republic’s troops equipped themselves with what they could afford. The poor were skirmishers and light infantry, the middle class were heavy infantry of increasing grades, the upper class were cavalry. The Empire, which indeed provided equipment, was hundreds of years later.

>>3824611
>The Gun Runners are NCR citizens
The Gun Runners are a business older than the NCR. If anything it shows how weak the NCR is that they let their main arms suppliers to remain a private entity.

>>3824621
>main arms suppliers to remain a private entity.
that's the exact same situation the US gov't has had with all its weapon manufacturers throughout history.
Springfield, browning, colt, remington, etc aren't nationalized companies. Hell some of our outfitters aren't even American companies. We have been buying weapons from FN for decades, for example.

>they let their main arms suppliers
keyword "let".
>Do you know how large the NCR army is? If they wanted to, they could have beaten us a dozen times over.
>Do you know why they haven't? Money. Every time things have gotten too tense, we've paid them off and laid low for a while.

>>3824621
>The Gun Runners are a business older than the NCR. If anything it shows how weak the NCR is that they let their main arms suppliers to remain a private entity.
Jesus Christ you really are retarded. How do you think most armies are supplied? I can't think of a single western country that has state entities manufacturing their weapons. Turns out employing craftsmen on a constant government salary is extremely pointless and expensive once there's no more guns to deliver. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

This is a practice as old as history. The mid-to-late Republican and Imperial Romans employed collegia fabrorum, guilds of fabricators/mechanics/artificers to supply mass amounts of semi-standardized equipment for their armies. Even the smiths on the march that were just responsible for maintenance/repair were special contractors that received more benefits than regular soldiers and immunity from regular duty. Here again, we see that the NCR is closer to a real Roman inheritor state than Caesar's primitive gang.

>>3824610
Iirc you get lines from Isaac, Alexander and Contreras all about how the Gun Runner's no. 1 buyer is the NCR army and how close the relationship between the Gun Runners and NCR are.
Maybe this goes over people's heads because the Gun Runners are the only faction in NV without corresponding quests.

Thinking about this, I feel that it's interesting that all the smaller factions in NV who are ultimately most loyal to the NCR are the ones who have relationships with them further west. Gun Runners, Crimson Caravan Company, Followers of the Apocalypse, Brotherhood of Steel (to an extent of considering a truce) and Van Graffs (purely business with no love or loyalty between them).
Khans and Powder Gangers are exceptions, but that's basically a full-on blood feud between Vault 15 descendants and escaped criminals, respectively.

>>3824973
>Jesus Christ you really are retarded.
Well yeah, that's all NCR-haters. They just repeat the mantra of "muh mistakes of the old world" as if anarchy or tyranny was a brand new concept, and systematically assume the worst case scenario for the NCR and the best case scenario for the faction they like, and that's discounting the countless lies they spew.

>>3803528 (OP)
It's literally just the "evil edgy kid" faction. A caricature.

>>3803528 (OP)
They weren't designed to be appealing

I used to genuinely hate them and thought they were dumb as fuck until I got an IRL taste of anarchy and looting thanks to the hurricane that swept through the east coast fairly recently. When dealing with niggers/looters, the occasional druggie, and environmental disasters like live wires being on the ground, or sudden floods the only really viable option is violence. Genuinely terrible violence, far worse than the other party can inflict.
They would probably be one of the best factions to come out of the wastes and set up for civilization later on, but considering their circumstances I cant really help but to agree with them in regards to the way they rule.

>>3803528 (OP)
Legion shud be a starting area/faction

>>3824621
Like every army ever except for a few brief interim periods where the soviets were being retards, but even they aren't a counter example, because they came to their senses having previously attempted to use said private manufacturers equipment unsuccessfully. Hiring on foreign investors to run weapons manufacturing.


Since the dawn of man, weapons development was either some guy making weapons for his own use, a independent craftsmen making weapons for others, a entrepreneur training others to make weapons of their design for others, or a craftsmen making weapons under contract of someone else's design.

Any sort of creative pursuit cannot be divorced from the cost of it's operations.

>>3827233
Sure but the NCR does that as well. NCR citizens tell you that there are almost no raiders left West, that they have to hide in the most deserted areas and California is so peaceful it's "boring". Kimball made his career as a "war-hawk". The NCR can exterminate raiders, and they do, taking the Mojave as an absolute example of what the NCR is is a complete mistake.

>>3803528 (OP)
I never liked those pan lids/plates.

Like, everything else about ebery Legion outfit is perfect. It is literally just this Mickey Mouse shit.

>>3829690
might work if they weren't cookware and most metal plates scavenged from industrial things.
lids and plates aren't even slightly bulletproof, but maybe they'd be ok for thrown knifes or rocks, idk.

>>3803528 (OP)
You wouldn't, because you have to be based and redpilled, and OP is always a faggot, so...

>>3829690
It's supposed to mimic a Sabine triple-disc cuirass. Probably the most useful armor the legion has considering their biggest enemy has gun and their other armor is football pads. The legion would look 10x better if they didn't dress like retards. Same with the raiders. You're telling me not a single legion guy has figured out smithing? None of the armor in FO1 or 2 looked anywhere near as ridiculous as the nu-fallout bullshit where the bad guys just wear a bunch of junk draped over them. Marcus is the only one character that really had that look in the original games, but his junk armor actually protects his body. Why the fuck does a raider need half a tire on their shoulder?

>>3829812
not exactly wrong

>>3803528 (OP)
They look like a bunch of glowies during a BBQ day off. Just a bunch of thugs in a "roman" dress-up.
>>3803916
>raiders themselves
>drugs are banned, the best medical aid/treatment is healing powder/bitter drink so enjoy dying to anything that needs antibiotics/whatever
>taxation via tribute/supplies
>or they just come in and take anything they want
>slavery instead of sex trafficking, rape is institutionalised
>revolutionary exercise programs are designed to kill off anyone who cannot survive them with killing off being the goal
>whoever survives is used as cannon fodder/meat shield
>whole hierarchy is built on brutality
Yeah, whats not to get indeed.
>legionaires can come in and rape your wife/daughter/son/you if they feel like it
>they often engage in gay sex themselves
>higher-ups are corrupt and can keep harems as long as they do their job
Just another "Rome".

>>3812166
>Was Mr.House wrong?
Whore means someone pays you for sexual favours/sex. Means someone comes to you (initiates the contact, regardless of you advertising it or not), negotiates the price, and then you proceed with the act. In context, it would mean that NCR would come to you, hire you to do work, and then pay you for it (some upfront, rest on completion). However, player on their own volition can complete tasks without even contacting NCR and getting hired. You can kill off powder gangers and gain good karma for it. You can kill Motor Runner & Co, save that ranger, without even knowing who/what NCR is, and not even bother with getting paid by Hsu because you were just murderhoboing weapons off fiends.
>was House in the wrong
Yes. And he calls you a whore because it is an insult. As for NCR, they would've taken Vegas and killed the bitter fuck, except Legion showed up. So he hates NCR because he knows he would've lost to them in a fair fight. Also
>RobCo
>hostile takeovers of companies that have whichever technologies he was interested in
>he doesnt know shit himself
>relies on others to do heavy lifting while ordering them around
Oh how i wish i could sick Dean Domino on him.

>>3815429
Sure it does. Look at the drone warfare.
Also, a quote directly from the game
"If war never changes, then people must change". And it is ultimately true.

>>3803528 (OP)
The irony of the Legion is lost on most NCR players because the fact that Caesar's methodology is a direct result of the NCR's utilitarian approach to incorporating technology goes over their heads. The NCR is fine with the Followers because of how they view technology, and so the Followers inevitably attempt to spread the torch of knowledge to backwards warmongering tribals, leading to the creation of the Legion. The Legion is not an other, they're not foreign invaders but are in fact just another problem the NCR unintentionally created due to lacking caution. All of the NCR's actions across Fallout 2 and New Vegas ultimately prove that the Brotherhood is correct in its views on how to best utilize advanced technology and education. Giving anyone unfettered access to the knowledge of how to start empires and manufacture death weapons is inherently disastrous and dangerous.

>>3815483
> NCR takes over independent areas whether they want it or not
Lol what. Are you talking about Primm? Because you can keep Primm independent in two ways, and you can get NCR to incorporate Primm IF NCR agrees to it and Primm is OK with it. It is a mutual agreement. Not like "We come to take your turf."
Do you even read the dialogue, or do you just skip everything?
>buttfucks you with taxes
Yeah, government and nation need taxes to provide services, INCLUDING protection, meaning military. And what do you mean buttrapes? What, no 1:1 exchange with an old man so he buys a bit lower from you and sells a but higher? Way to be petty.

>>3832782
>prove that the Brotherhood is correc
That would mean something to me if the Brotherhood was written consistently in any 2 games. Every game has a different idea of what the BoS is and they're often contradictory to each other.

>>3824603
>neither of which outfit the NCR’s military
Lol what?!
Gun Runners ARE contracted by NCR to supplement firearms. Its right there in the game. Van Graffs dont because they trade energy weapons, which are not in NCR's doctrine.
NCR make and supply their own guns, except with Mojave, they need EXTRA. And they manufacture their own armors, including the ranger patrol one.
Man, just stop making asspulls.

>>3824606
>Legion utilizes plasma rifles
That is an outright horseshit. I know it. YOU know it. You most definitely know that i know that you know it.
They use ballistic fists for praetorian guard, they use super-sledges and advanced weapons in assassination squads that are targeted AT player due to GAME LOGIC, not lore/context. And worse yet, rank-and-file legionaire is using throwing spears, machetes, veterans use caravan shotguns and cowboy repeaters and such. And rank-and-file NCR troops use service rifle because its the standard weapons for rank-and-file soldiers. And things change when it comes to endgame when elite legion troops use chainsaws, ballistic fists, advanced guns, and NCR use heavy weapons (LMGs, missile launchers), same advanced guns, and goddamn AMRs.
And Gun Runners DO supply NCR with weapons. Its right there in the game.

>>3832786
>Every game has a different idea of what the BoS is and they're often contradictory to each other.
FO1 is correct.

>>3829829
The thing about raiders is that they are hopped-up up to the eyeballs on chems. They really dont think straight, and behave like... a pack of stray dogs. Can't expect much out of that.
As for blacksmithing... in ruins of near vault 3, there is a factory building or such surrounded by various disused signs and billboards. You can see fiends having chem stations and makeshift anvils, using junk to make whatever.

>>3832782
>Followers inevitably attempt to spread the torch of knowledge to backwards warmongering tribals, leading to the creation of the Legion
DID YOU EVEN PLAY THE GAME?!
Joshua DIRECTLY tells you that i was him and his friend, who later took name of Ceasar, who created Legion. And they were both MORMONS, from UTAH.
You are a stupid fuck.

>>3803528 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2e_C9mRnI

This should answer your question

>>3832798
My man.

>>3832786
No, the Brotherhood is extremely consistent as an organization with a clear mission and code of conduct. Lyons group in 3 isn't even really the Brotherhood since they cut off contact with other chapters and are essentially a rogue splinter group.

>>3832796
Edward (Caesar) was a Follower's member sent to learn tribal dialects. The Mormons were accomplices in the outreach since they were actually fluent in the languages whereas Edward didn't know any yet, but the whole idea of subjugating the tribes and giving them a new cultural identity was entirely Edward's, Joshua was just along for the ride. Regardless, the whole idea of the Legion is a result of Edward getting access to archives of Roman history from the Followers (and apparently reading Hegel? Lol). The Legion is what happens when you don't safeguard information and give advanced education to anyone who wants it, you get warlords living out Heart of Darkness when they inevitably can't teach nor integrate sub 80 iq tribals the same way as a 100 iq civilian. It's a natural consequence of allowing technological capacity to go unchecked.

>>3832782
This would be a stronger argument if Caesar's hatred of the NCR and the subsequent reason he was trying to take New Vegas was for disagreeing over the NCR's misusage of technology instead of him directly stating he hates them because of the political corruption and their slow and weak bureaucracy.
>Giving anyone unfettered access to the knowledge
In Caesar's specific case, the Followers are the ones who gave him the knowledge and NV certainly never points them as the bad guys beyond acknowledging the ramifications of the Khans learning how to make drugs. Unless you think the NCR should have wiped out the Followers sometime between 1 and 2.

The Legion avoiding technology use is more of a means to an end of only allowing the strong to survive and not an outright philosophy.

>>3832818
You don't understand my post or just didn't read it very well. I'm not arguing for the Legion but rather illustrating the fact that the Legion is a direct consequence of the NCR and their view of technology. The only faction I support in Fallout is the Brotherhood.

>>3832820
>Legion is a direct consequence of the NCR and their view of technology.
They're literally not. Caesar wasn't of the NCR. His knowledge on history and warfare and not because of the NCR. It's because he was taken in by a group of scholars in the ruins of a library in LA who were and still are independent of the NCR. Edward would have become Caesar with or without the NCR's existence.
To further drive the point, when he sent Bill Calhoun back California, he specifically sent him as an envoy to Followers against interfering, not to Shady Sands.

>>3832820
>>3832782
Another thing you're forgetting is that the Brotherhood of Steel's autism is only focused on advanced weapon technology. They do not care about history other than their own and they do not care about technology that can be used to wage warfare at the same level of the Pre-War US.
The quote of the venerable Mr. House
>Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs.
>No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that {emphasis} puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo.
Caesar's knowledge isn't really of weapons. It's about empire building. He's a scholar of history and politics and ancient warfare. Not weaponry and technology.
Again, there's several quests in NV to highlight this. The BoS doesn't care about the proliferation of even farming technology which would benefit everyone, their boner is entirely for weapons.

>>3832826
Also observe how the Brotherhood of Steel was perfectly fine with the Hubologists and Shi existing in Fo2, but Matthew and the rest were shitting themselves only after the Enclave started flying Vertibirds hither and thither

>>3832826
>can
excuse me
>Cannot be used at the same level of pre-war us (or beyond).
i.e. energy weapons, nukes, power armor, vertibirds.
they wouldn't give a shit about spears or shotguns or really anything the legion actually uses.

>>3832826
>there's several quests in NV to highlight this
Like Legion dragging in a howitzer to be used during the 2nd battle, except its firing mechanism is broken, and they dont know how to repair it, and only know that Boomers might have something to repair it with.
Or that auto-doc machine in Ceasar's tent that the baldie doesnt know how to use properly, and so needs Arcade or you to fix it and operate on him. Which bring in the next issue with Ceasar. Bastard has a brain tumor, so his empire will not live long (maybe not even a year) before he keels over and legion descends into infighting. So much for long-term plans of the Caesar's Legion.

>>3808527
degenerates like you belong on the cross

>>3803614
>warrior aristocracy is when you are an atheist who loves the jews

>>3832812
>No, the Brotherhood is extremely consistent as an organization with a clear mission and code of conduct.
Oh yeah, super consistent
>Fallout 1
Believed in controlling technology...unless you join and help them, then the ending says they completely go back on that mission and use technology to help the people of the wastes.
>Fallout 2
Have grown out throughout the wastes and for some reason Matthew (who is one of like 3 BoS members in the entire game) not only knows about but believes in all the Chosen One shit, so he openly recruits you to spy on him.
>Fallout Tactics
I know the game isn't canon but I'm bringing them up anyway because they were the coolest offshoot. They just said "fuck it" to all their former principles, went full pragmatic, and tamed the midwest with an army.
>Fallout 3
The Outcasts actually have very little characterization so quite frankly there isn't a lot to say.
>Fallout 4
So now they're the....Black Templars chapter of Space Marines?

>>3829829
>It's supposed to mimic a Sabine triple-disc cuirass
That's neat. It still looks like shit. Any mod out there that changes this one thing and nothing else?

>>3832822
The NCR has a utilitarian profit-based approach to technology where technological development at all costs is allowed and encouraged regardless of long term consequences. The Followers are allowed to operate in NCR territory because of the NCR’s views on technology. Trying to absolve the NCR from accountability by pointing out the fact that the Follower’s are independent is moot when the NCR tolerates and encourages their operations in their own territory. The Followers were allowed to give Edward knowledge of Roman history and interact with tribals with the mindset of elevating them because of the NCR’s negligence. Also dialogue with Caesar reveals that yes he was born as an NCR citizen. The Legion exists because the NCR lacks caution. Without the NCR there could be no Legion.

>>3833792
>>3832822
>Do you want my opinion as a former citizen or future conqueror? Actually, my opinion’s the same either way
>As a young man I was taught to venerate President Tandy of Shady Sands, the Founding Mother of New California
So what new cope will you pull out of your ass after being exposed as a dishonest NCR cocksucker who ignores objective in-game narrative? The Legion is the NCR’s fault. They’re so incompetent they create their own enemies by accident.

Something I noticed while playing Fallout New Vegas earlier is that the average Legionary is actually better equipped than the average NCR Trooper. Legionaries carry machetes and spears, yes, but a majority of them also have 10mm pistols and submachine guns, .357 pistols, cowboy repeaters, and so on. And that's just the Recruits. People say the NCR has "standardised" equipment like the Service Rifle but it isn't true. Troopers often only have 9mm pistols and submachine guns, or other low tier weapons, and only some have Service Rifles. It actually says in loading screen tips that NCR Troopers don't have standardised equipment and that their only strength is numbers. The Legion has the advantage in equipment and training.

I guarantee that the majority of the people on this board, if given command of the NCR, would do a better job defeating the legion. How goddamn hard is it to dig trenches and set up firing lines with machineguns? The entire battle of Hoover Dam should have been a line of death that makes Legion advancement impossible until the backup NCR army shows up to mop up the 100 legionaries left who aren't 90% shrapnel by weight

The problem is, they aren't allowed to fight intelligently, because plot said so. Because General Oliver is a dumb cunt who cares more about his pet power armor troopers having a glorious exchange than winning the battle. This is unfortunately not unrealistic, but at the same time most military leaders are NOT Field Marshall Haig so it is pretty uncommon.

>>3833796
>>3833792
You're shifting the argument.
>>3832782
Was saying that the NCR is bad because it uses technology and allows free flow of information -- which is a nonsensical criticism of a government real or fictional, but again Ceasar doesn't dislike the NCR for that specific reasons, he hates them for political reasons.

>>3833803
[Speech 100] Yeah but have you thought about going EAST instead of West?

>>3833811
What if the Courier encountered a nemesis with level 100 speechcraft? Could he convince you to kill yourself?

>>3833807
The NCR is bad because they don’t care how technology effects the populace as long as the government can appropriate it for GDP number go up statistic. In all of this exchange you still don’t comprehend the argument and likely never will. Also again you’re lying because Caesar despises how the NCR’s over-reliance on technology at the expense of every other military consideration has made them weak, and this is part of why the Legion doesn’t allow their soldiers to use advanced gear until they’ve proven themselves. It’s why Praetorians use power fists and why regular recruits are stuck with machetes. It’s almost like you never even spoke to him at the Fort because he explains what he thinks about the NCR extremely clearly. The only one shifting the argument is you which is why you constantly resort to fabrications and also because you’re too retarded to understand the argument in the first place. Every single problem that Vegas faces is a direct result of the NCR and this is very concisely outlined by simply playing the game to its conclusion and listening to dialogue

>>3834363
No because NPCs unlike the player can't use speech checks

>>3834391
So much cope. The NCR isn't weak because of muh technology, and they aren't weak in general, this is just the frontier of their Empire fighting an unpopular conflict against a rabid terrorist death-cult. The Legion lacks technology because they're illiterate retarded tribals who can't into tech, it's not a choice, they just don't have an industry.

>It’s almost like you never even spoke to him
It's fascinating how retarder House and Caesar stans are, you go up to an obvious narcissistic psychopath and you cling to their every word as if they were gospel, totally unquestioning.

Anyway, lying commie is a lying commie.

>>3835078
The NCR has a clear and distinct lack of administrative power. They need the support of numerous non-state actors to function. They have poorly planned and executed training pipelines for troops, they can't seem to get decent weaponry to their front line soldiers, their organization as a whole is rife with graft and corruption which creates inefficiency.

The legion is consciously designed to be the polar opposite of this. A top down hierarchical structure where inefficiencies have been stamped out, where the state can bring 100% of the male population to war if it so chooses.

What people mostly fail to realize is that Caesar is a NCR citizen most of all, and he wants to bring in a whole lot of tribals into the NCR, same as the NCR leadership.

The only issue is that Caesar wants his tribals to influence the NCR and harden it,'instead of the other way around for NCR elites (more bodies, more consumers, more land and expansion).

NCR wants to bring itself into the wasteland, while Sallow wants to bring the wasteland into the NCR.

>>3803543
if something isn't always good then it was never good. if it was good only in a moment then it was just part of a trend. Generalizing here not talking about the game

Are you faggots STILL arguing about this?
Caesar's Legion is just the meme 'evil' faction that exists to antagonize everyone else. You're not supposed to join them if you're a functional adult.

>>3835125
Caesar's Legion is written as an ideological reaction/response to the NCR, and can be used as a springboard to start a philosophical debate regarding the nature of liberal democracy.

It exists in relation to what we "know" (the west) as the fantasy of an intellectual chuddish man.
If you close the debate out of hand, you essentially admit to being entirely locked in to the liberal globohomo framework which of course rubs some people the wrong way.

This is just how it is.

>>3835078
>illiterate
Why would the Legion be illiterate? If nobody can read, then who is Caesar writing his Commentarii for?

>>3835125
Fallout New Vegas is an unfinished game so basically all of the arguments about the story are fake. The NCR is objectively the right choice because they put a load of stuff showing how good they are in the game but forgot to put in all the stuff showing how bad they are. House ending is just the NCR ending with blackjack and hookers (literally). Personally I think it's more interesting to talk about what the developers intended, because there's an actual argument to be had over whether an incompetent but moral NCR is better than a competent but immoral Legion.

>>3835180
>The NCR is objectively the right choice because they put a load of stuff showing how good they are in the game but forgot to put in all the stuff showing how bad they are.
Objectively wrong. Every NCR quest is about how incompetent/undertrained/underequipped they are, and how the higher ups and bureaucracy fucks up everything. Hell, if you play Fallout 2, you'd know that Shady sands is literally a dictatorial police state with heavily armed "police" doing nothing but standing around protecting the brahmin barons and government agents while extorting travelers and citizens. They shoot you on sight if you carry a weapon, too, + Tandi's worthless junkie son is allowed to harass, rape and rob anyone he wants to, but if you defend yourself every cop on the map turns hostile. + Tandi literally gives you a quest to murder the squatters in vault 15, and only if you suggest a peaceful resolution she goes "yeah, ok". The entire fucking point of the Legion is that it's the NCR (an expansionist dictatorship), except the legion doesn't pretend to be an egalitarian democracy, actually gives a shit about stopping raiders, doesn't rape you with taxes and has competent leadership. Caesar literally tells you this.

>>3835187
Well yeah, you *hear* about it but you don't see it. 90% of players will talk to Caesar and the two token NPCs who glaze the Legion and assume they're full of shit, in absence of any visible proof. Similarly, without visible proof of NCR atrocities or of their society being on the verge of collapse or other marks against them, it's way easier for players to write these problems off as solveable or blown out of proportion. Fallout 2 does a better job at showing NCR's flaws but it's also a different game and most people who play FNV haven't played Fallout 2.

>>3835187
>doesn't rape you with taxes
True the Legion only rapes Carla Booner with absurdly oversized BBC. Why would anybody want to genocide Caesar and his tribe?

>>3810450
Holy based.

Finally someone understands that House is literally just a Muskovite Nazi, no different from CL.

Left libertarian anarchist ending >>> any NCR ending > others > CL = house.

>>3835776
BBC (Big Boone Cock)

>>3835776
>chudcel imagination of Carla
She was way uglier and had sex with Black men before she met Boone & that's a good thing. Boone killed his wife because he was a jealous insecure loser, not because he feared BBC rizzlers in Caesar's. Shit, Ulysses already abandoned the Legion at that point.

its unreal to me to this day, that anyone would choose something other than wild card. why would you give away power to someone else?

>>3835914
>Muskovite Nazi
Stopped reading here

>>3835944
In wildcard the power is seemingly given to Yes Man. At least that’s how it was written.

>>3835983
>Musk babby triggered

>>3803528 (OP)
>Wants to form a lasting nation-state
>Doesn't have any plan for succession
>Insists a new civilizational synthesis rise from the thesis and anti-thesis of NCR and Legion
>Cultivates Legion to be against adaptation or learning from the enemy, including the destruction of literature and enshrewing technology
The Khans had a better chance of realizing dialectic by simply absorbing the NCR like the mongols did by becoming the Yuan Dynasty

>>3836222
>Triggered brownbby over musk not deleting faggot porn.

>>3837155
Caesar just wants to enact a bloody revolution upon the NCR, cut off the entire ruling caste and have his legion replace them.

>>3837174
Why would brown people have problem with homosexual pornography

>>3803916
>what's not to get

I love how you avoided the fact that your chud fag ass wouldn't be able to keep up in tbe military side so you'd either be a slave or crucified. Yet here we are, you beating your pathetic dicklet to a man who pretends to be another man dead for more than 2000 years. Top notch anon

>>3803916
*nationalizes sex trafficking

>>3835914
this but unironically

>>3832782
Brothergood sucks in new vegas becsuse energy weapons don't feel as good and they lose their aura because of that.

>>3835915
Fat Fuck Boone