Thread 3833410

>Punish the players for choosing Renegade options
>Wonder why players didn't choose Renegade options
Were the devs really that retarded?

What the hell guys. We gave you demon eyes, horns, and even tails. We are sorely disappointed. Go crazy. We worked hard on this!

>>3833410 (OP)
Real renegades pirated it and bypassed their analytics.

>>3833410 (OP)
>"Please don't kill me! I surrender!"
>A. Fine, leave and never come back.
>B. Heh, time to die!
man they worked hard on mass effect. There are just so many different ways to play.

the problem is that Renegade in 1 was "do the right thing but have to do morally questionable things in the process" and in 2 and 3 it was "LOOK AT HOW MUCH OF AN EPIC BADASS I AM"

Are there even any games that do the evil route well?

That's a surprising statistic. Renegade options were typically, press x to punch face. What kind of a faggot wouldn't?

>>3833437
Skyrim - tons of people supported the stormcloaks.

>>3833437
Soul Nomad & the World Eaters

>>3833453
Stormcloaks may be evil but at least they don't build their policy on appeasing Jewlmor like Empire does. Being a cuckold and appeasing demons never works for anyone but demons, like the real life shows.

>>3833455
Ah, that's why they're instead perfect unwitting pawns for the Thalmor. The perfect tactic.

>>3833496
Yes, because yellow Dominos want their appeasers to suffer and die no matter how much they are appeased, that's the idea. So a stalemate where everyone bleeds is perfect. That's why Dragonborn helping one of the sides to resolve the conflict faster no matter which side he picks is bad. Suddenly those perfect unwitting pawns aren't either perfect or pawns.

lol I've played through the trilogy like 6 times and I've never once went paragon

>>3833453
Stormcloaks are retarded grugs, not evil. A united empire obviously poses more of a threat to the Thalmor and non-elves killing each other needlessly only benefits them.

>>3833453
>Skyrim - tons of people supported the stormcloaks.
8/10 bait
>>3833455
Stormcloaks may be evil but
Stopped reading here

>>3833453
>Skyrim - tons of people supported the stormcloaks.

that's because your first introduction to the Imperials in Skyrim left a bad impression. They wanted to execute you and write you off as a Stormcloak because you got caught up in the ambush

>>3833453
Actually good bait for Bethtards, lol.

>>3833586
I replayed Skyrim a few years ago and went through both sides' questlines to compare, had never picked Imperials before. Hadvar's an alright guy, but even in the tutorial dungeon he's like
>Um, here's the uh, torture dungeon I guess. *sigh* I wish these weren't necessary but you know

>>3833410 (OP)
>Punish
Do you shit your pants when playing Dishonored's High Chaos, too?

>>3833589
Not like the Stormcloaks have torture rooms or anythi-

>>3833589
Yes, I agree that he should've been way more enthusiastic about torturing st*rmcloak scum

Or just don't have a stupid "how much of a good guy are you" meter players can see so they feel compelled to make the good boy points go up and instead just let the players judge the morality of the circumstances themselves, you know, like real life.

>>3833613
Morality scales aren't the thing players judge a choice by, it's XP and loot and access to more content.

>>3833616
Devs keep fucking this up. The good path should be hard and mechanically unrewarding. The evil path should shower you with xp, loot, and mechanical benefits.

>>3833632
Dragonlance used to do this well, back in 2nd edition AD&D. Black robe wizards would gain levels much quicker than White robe wizards, but at the highest level, White Robes had more slots to memorize higher level spells, Red Robes were in the middle.

>>3833451
Because it never made any fucking sense to do whatsoever. It was stuff like
>Let's go to this random planet to find out more about the thing for some reason
>Oh, hello random scientist who's been working on finding out more about the thing
>PUNCH HER IN THE FACE literally within three seconds of meeting her and all she has said so far was "hello"
>The scientist, now terrified of you and blinded with a fractured skull and concussion, flees deeper into the dungeon
>Now that the scientist is deep in the dungeon, she might die and you'll lose all the information about the thing you came here to find out more about if you don't save her in time
>And all of this is because you just randomly punched her in the face for absolutely no fucking reason whatsoever, just because you saw the dialogue option to do so presented
Yeah they put so much fucking work into it...

>>3833606
It turns out, Hadvar's a sub bottom so he doesn't particularly care if there isn't an erect top telling him to like it.

>>3833565
>Stopped reading here
They call themselves StormCLOAKS and then give all their recruits sleeveless shirts with only Ulfric wearing something that seems appropriate for Skyrim's weather. Might not be the biggest evil considering Nords' resistancs but it still is. Of course, Empire outdoes them and forces THEIR recruits to wear not just sleeveless shirts but also skirts.

>>3833605
Ah sweet. Nords have a manlet fixing machine.

>>3833451
Renegade was more of a stupid evil thing for dialogue choice, and in terms of quick time events was very relevant

>>3833669
Nords have a 40% resistance to cold, they dont actually need as much covering

>>3833435
A good example of this was in ME2 with the Veetor choice, there is literally no reason to pick the renegade choice and give him to Cerberus unless you just want to be an asshole and see what happens. Renegade in 2 and 3 was so stupid.

>>3833453
Viking isis is based, fuck the elves!

>>3833410 (OP)
If you were a real renegade you wouldn't care. Fake bitchass nigger.

>>3833651
I often see the Renegade Choice prompt appear three seconds after meeting a woman in real life.

>>3833410 (OP)
Mass effect one? The game was obviously railroading you into going paragon the same way mass effect 2 railroaded you into going Renegade.
I played both in all game but well...

>>3833410 (OP)
>were the devs really that retarded
For 2 and 3 yes.

>>3833427

>dont kill me!
>>kill NPC (good)
>>kill NPC (bad)

They didn't really punish people for going Renegade (in some cases, Renegade option was straight up superior), but most people don't like to be assholes or Evil.

Having two paths of
>nice guy
>bad guy
is always stupid and a bad idea. Especially when it also devolves into having to go all in on being nice or bad to be worth it.

it's usually better to go with faction Reputation systems or something similar.

>>3833528
>Be Renegade Shepard
>Accidentally fuck Tali to death

>Be Renegade Femshep
>Accidentally get fucked to death by Garrus

>>3833435
Yes because me2 and me3 suck ass

evil choices in games exist to add gravity to the good choices. basically the possibility of a different path, makes your choices mean more. but realistically, evil choices are only for edgy spergs that don't even take the story seriously in the first place.

>>3834618
if you're taking a video game story seriously and not trying to have fun, a sperg is you.

>>3834623
>you aren't allowed to get invested in a story
you're probably one of those people that can't visualize an apple

>>3833410 (OP)
idk

>>3834618
there shouldn't be evil choices at all. there should be branching paths and options to help different people, but siding with someone who appears villainous should not necessarily make you evil. I definitely don't trust modern devs to implement morality. siding against thieves would be an evil choice today

>>3834627
that's called a non-sequitur, it's also a generic newfag response lacking imagination or creativity. try visualizing a better post.

video games are played to have fun, choosing things that are fun for you is fun. if you are railroaded by the narrative so hard that you can't pick choices that you as a human find morally off putting, that objectively isn't as fun.

>>3834633
>I definitely don't trust modern devs to implement morality. siding against thieves would be an evil choice today
This

>>3833410 (OP)
>not playing femshep and going full renegade to see her sexy glowing eyes and scars
Normies are so lame.

>>3834635
I would take a page out of your book and write something about projecting, but honestly I can't be fucked to argue with a sperg right now.

>>3834668
i accept your concession.

>we put work into renegade
No, you didn't.

>>3834669
Hey, that's my line!

>>3834776
>line!
*loss!

>>3834798
Illiterate-san...

>>3834806
>Illiterate-san
*literate-sama

>>3833764
kek
>>3833410 (OP)
I never choose renegade because it made Shepard look ugly.

>>3833417
kek

>Renegade in ME1 was a space racist
>Option to be a space racist is removed afterwards
Except against batarians, I guess

>>3834289
>They didn't really punish people for going Renegade
Renegade basically locks you out of the good ending to ME3.

>>3835025
Which is the good ending? Aren't they all the same?

>>3834967
Batarians are chuds, hence its okay and reddit-approved to wish (and enact) Holocaust upon them

Its actually council policy to be against batarians, hence shepard is simply acting just like asari or turians want him to

>>3833453
Ragebait, imperial are all antifa r*dditors hating on Ulfric for genuinely non-existent "racism" while defending a terrorist Empire committing genocide upon Aryans.

>>3834967
Batarians aren't people

>>3834967
It'd be funny if we meet aliens and dumbasses on Earth are like "don't be racist to them" and the aliens are like "bro I ain't part of your fucking "races", I'm another species".

>>3833410 (OP)
>We put a lot of work in to the Renegade options to
Did you? Because instead of Renegade being options where you put pragmatism and efficiency over morality, the Paragon/Renegade split almost always boiled down to
>Paragon
>Blow up up the facility
>Renegade
>Blow up the facility, but kick a box filled with puppies into reactor as a catalyst to give yourself an extra 3 seconds to run back to your ship
Or
>Paragon
>Introduce yourself and question the barkeeper
>Renegade
>Break a bottle over a random bar patron's head to show that you mean business

>>3834618
tsmt, denying TRD and withholding my righteous fist from journo flesh makes me really feel the weight of being commander shepherd

>>3833453
>>3833530
The imperials literally tried to murder me, and any argument that they're necessary is retarded. Would you want to fight for the US if they falsely imprisoned you and tried to cut your head off? Are you a cuck? Even if I had a geopolitical belief in the empire, beginning the game knowing for an absolute fact that I would have been executed if Alduin didn't save my ass does not for positive feelings make.
>A united empire is better to fight the Thalmor!
Skyrim and the Empire could very easily enter a military alliance against the Thalmor even if Skyrim secedes. Solved.
You know what's not good for presenting a united front against the Thalmor? Slaughtering your own potential allies in a retarded civil war. Even if the empire won, who exactly is going to be eager to sign up for the military that just crushed your dreams of sovereignty? Not to mention the death toll.
Tiber Septim himself says in Morrowind that it's time to just let the Empire fucking collapse. It's over. Not that an imperial would give a shit what his own patron god thinks about the matter, which is so fucking pathetic.

>RPGs need choice and consequence!
>n-no! don't subject me to consequences!

>>3833437
Baller's gate 3, Torment, WotR.

>>3833613
WTF? Is this an AI post? Players only keep track of morality points to game the system for minimum morality thresholds for gameplay rewards. The meter itself has no inheret value unless they add a bunch of visual effects or something like for the Dark Side in Kights of the Old Republic so you can look cool on the charcter screen.

>>3833453
I have both a clan of super-vampires AND a shitton of dragons loyal to Dragon Buddha (actually loyal to me though lol) at my back. What can the puppet Empire OR the Stormcucks offer next to that? Skyrim is MINE now.

>>3836566
>Players only keep track of morality points to game the system for minimum morality thresholds for gameplay rewards
Yeah, that's the problem, metagaming is shit

And yes, getting a YOU ARE A BAD GUY, BAD GUY POINTS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO YOUR MORALITY METER message dissuades people from making those choices. Most people want to do a "good" playthrough for their first, and maybe only playthrough and if there' some objective morality meter they're just going to defer to its judgement instead of their own.

I always played paragon because to me Shepard feels like a distinct character that I'm playing as, rather than a typical RPG blank slate. And that character is a goody two shoes boy scout paragon.

>>3833496
>Ah, that's why they're instead perfect unwitting pawns for the Tha-ACK
Cuckmor cope

>>3833427
bro wanted a rape option

>>3836534
>Would you want to fight for the US if they falsely imprisoned you and tried to cut your head off? Are you a cuck?
I hate that argument. You're letting a personal slight against one bitch officer take over the bigger picture.
Not saying it's a meaningless slight or that it's wrong to choose the Stormcloak for other reasons. But the execution is the worst argument.

>>3836553
>make terrible consequences for terrible choices that nobody would want to make for any reason whatsoever
>reward simple choices that feel good with power, fame and love
>complain nobody pick the objectively incorrect choices marked with [DO NOT PICK THIS IS THE WRONG ROUTE]
Meaningful choices and consequences would be like picking up a cursed sword to kill a demon that's otherwise unkillable. If you do it your companions start hating you because you're becoming mad and dangerous, and if you don't the demon murders tons of innocents the whole game.

>>3836936
It was *an* argument among several I made. I can actually agree with you that, by itself, it wouldn't be good enough, because there's a counterargument to be made that personal feelings do not trump the greater good.
Frankly, there are only two pro-empire arguments that are really worth anything: That the Empire is necessary to resist the Thalmor, and that the Stormcloaks are so inherently immoral compared with the Empire that they have to be defeated. Neither of those arguments really hold water. I already explained why the first doesn't hold under scrutiny. The second is ultimately just a matter of emotions without any solid rhetorical backbone.

>>3835082
For real, Stormcloaks are Ukraine and the Empire is russia. Why should there be orcs in Skyrim? And it's Kyne, not "Kynareth."

>>3836954
>Ukraine
>not the good goyim homo pride faction
Try to explain how this isn't the case

>>3833752
More like, there is no system that handles non-magical warmth or cold in the game. So it doesn't matter thant your gear would leave you freezing.

>>3836936
>>3836954
Yeah why wouldn't you fight Russia on behalf of the United States?
Okay the couped your goverment and forced their coup goverment to provoke a war with Russia for literally no reason at all. But they're really the good guys here, clearly!
Also imagine how grateful they will be if you manage give Crimea to the USA instead of to Russia! You'll be rich!

>>3833410 (OP)
>Renegade is marketed like it's the cutthroat, hardass route where Shep takes no prisoners and stops at nothing to get the job done for the sake of the galaxy
>In practice all of the xenophobic, chaotic stupid, and otherwise undesireable options are lumped into it so sticking entirely to it makes Shep often come across like either a psycho or idiot (e.g. siding with Morinth)
>Also Paragon Shep objectively gets the job done better with more allies and resources available to them, it's never trading being nice for being efficient - rather trading alliances and better outcomes for the chance to be more of a cunt
>And Paragon Shep is ALSO a determined badass getting the job done besides
yeah no fucking shit most people play Paragon with only a few Renegade options chosen.

>>3837362
>xenophobic
Stopped reading here.

>>3835082
They’re hating on Ulfic because he started a civil war while the empire is at its weakest over a treaty it had very little say it. Stormcucks will kill their fellow Nords for being “collaborators” and then wonder why half of Skyrim opposes them.

>>3836534
Half of Skyrim is pro-imperial, hence why it’s a civil war. It’s not as simple as “the Stormcloaks are freedom fighters fighting for sovereignty” when many of their own people don’t agree with their decisions.

>>3837583
>Half of Skyrim is pro-imperial
That half is barely Nords, they’re other races who are a drain on resources, refuse to assimilate and refuse to fight for the land they inhabit.

>>3837811
Most of them are Nords + many of them who are not Nords quite literally fought in the previous war to defend Skyrim along with other imperial provinces from Dominion takeover.

>>3837582
>he weakened the empire!
People like you who really remind me a lot of that Democrat NPC "Come on we're going to fight Russia" meme.

>>3833410 (OP)
How was renegade punished? I always play renegade after my obligatory paragon run

>>3833453
>imperialism is le good because blond humans are nationalistic
Total shitlib death.

>>3834967
You could never be a "space racist" you just looked after your own. Maybe that's "racism" in your shitlib heatmap demented brain but renegade Shepard in 1 acted in humanities interests, not out of hatred.

>>3837962
>Fish doesn't know what water is

>>3837970
That's a good point, people treat aliens like humans because they've only ever known humans. That's why they misapply human concepts like racism to them.

>>3834806
Dude, you got owned.

>>3838094
Retardchama...

>>3833410 (OP)
>Were the devs really that retarded?
The "evil" options in bg3 auto remove 3 companion characters. Only one character is later given an evil replacement character slot. An additional couple of npcs can be perma loss if you don't meta game to time the choices properly to make sure they're kept alive at proper times when you pick an evil option. Multiple game quests are removed after the first big evil choice path with no evil aligned replacements added despite the writing that would suggest that by killing the thielings you are switching over to joining with the goblin faction instead. Except there is no goblin faction to interact with like the thielings. The thielings were set up as reoccurring npcs while the goblin effectivly vanish from the game after mid act one. You will still be missing these usful characters items and quests from a act one choice even in deep into act 3. And chosing evil options adds little to no new quest or npc content for act 3. So Yeah, picking renegade just removes a full third of the game content. The devs saw no issue with this.

>>3837953
>I MUST equate real life politics with those of my favorite fantasy game.
>You are like this!
Could you be any more of a fucking faggot?

>>3837960
>Imperialism
>integrated part of the empire for centuries that has more rights and privileges than most real world states do
This is not to mention how Nordgroids would immediately fall into infighting in a hypothetical Stormcloak victory because they are violent apes who kill each other on the regular over nothing.

>>3838216
Show some respect. Those Nords founded the Empire, just like Ukrainians founded Moscow. The apes are those who desperately cling to it because they wouldn't be able to repeat it. Once the current Empire is dissolved, a proud Nord Dragonborn will simply create a new one that's fresh and vibrant.

>>3838228
> just like Ukrainians founded Moscow
What? Rostov-Suzdal Principaly was completely separate from Kiev Principality.

>>3833410 (OP)
This is why open world "immersive sims" are dumb.
>Look at all these branching paths and choices! You can do anything, be anyone!
>...WTF, most players only experienced a fraction of the content! What did we work so hard for???
I'd rather play something more curated.

>>3838243
>This is why open world "immersive sims" are dumb.
There aren't any.

>>3837323
kys vlad

>>3838228
>Those Nords founded the Empire, just like Vikings founded Moscow

>>3838260
Sseth disagrees:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ4R8aJfgww

>>3836745
You are confusing the pavlovian response for rewards as surrendering agency. The player doesn't actually care.

>>3838215
I made the comparison because your mindset is literally the same. You’re just another “the greater good” NPC faggot.

>>3838216
Elvish hands typed this post. How bout stop being a drain on Skyrim?

>>3838178
Not having to deal with the whiny “refugee” hellspawn, Halsin dying, and all the worst companions dying and leaving your party are just bonuses though. BG3 is so badly designed that being forced to skip reddit-tier dialogue and avoid being railroaded into mary sue NPC’s who’s quests are glorified liberal college lectures is a mercy. All of the best mechanical bonuses come from being a sadistic psycho anyway:
>Meet Volo in camp
>either get botched ice pick lobotomy and magical false eye purely unique item you can’t get anywhere else or… nothing and skip the interaction
>Visit the Hag
>either sacrifice your companion’s eye to an objectively evil powerful being connected to other equally terrible beings in exchange for an extremely powerful attribute boosting item AND a unique eye or.. skip the interaction and get nothing. Evil characters can hunt the Hag down and do the pregnant lady’s quest to the same extent as other characters after.
>Go to the goblin fort
>find the loviatar priest
>get flogged in his bdsm dungeon for an absurdly powerful unique buff that lasts between rests or refuse and get.. nothing.

the problem with these games is that unless you're doing a second play through or just taking the piss the evil option rarely if ever feels anywhere near as narratively satisfying. There's no real reason to be a psycho renegade. Revan's character doesn't work if he's not redeemed, I forget what happened in Jade Empire but I'd be money evil is dumb there too.

>>3836534
What your brain rotted ass isn't looking is that the imperials are just a broken machine. the storm cloaks were not only all to happy to take you down with them for the shit they did but they'd be happy to see the world burn if it meant they get what they want. At no point does one of them point and go "hey he's not with us" it probably wouldn't have worked but at least trying would make a difference in making them more sympathetic. Actually think about things beyond the immediate circumstances

>>3838391
>Um, why would you support the people who were about to die side-by-side with you, instead of the people who wanted to saw your fucking head off?
>It's not like the Stormcloaks managed to save you, so why not betray them and stand with the people who tried to kill you?
You're unironically some kind of fucking golem.
I'm flabbergasted that you can even have this retarded of a mentality and still manage to string together a grammatically correct sentence.
You have like zero self-respect.
Cuck!

>>3838391
>the imperials aren’t the bad guys for trying to execute you for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it’s the stormcloaks for not saying something that should be obvious to the imperials.
Really anon?

>>3838397
brain rot. Let me spell it out for you in simple terms. One sided being bad doesn't make the other side good. And being so pent up with spite for one that you become the dog of the other isn't better.

>>3838401
retard

>>3838358
>You want to actually defeat the Dominion instead of get divide and conquered and eventually steamrolled by them? Heh, you NPC libcuck.

>>3838228
Bretons founded the empire, Nordgroid

>>3838402
>retard
Yes you are, because that’s essentially what you stated which is absolutely retarded. You weren’t wearing stormcloak colors and were just crossing the border, so why would they need to say anything to the imperials when it should be obvious that you’re not a stormcloak?

>>3838407
>the empire is necessary to to fight the thalmor!
How long are you faggots going to keep up this dead argument,

>>3838418
>Apes divided weak
>Apes together strong
It’s that simple faggot

>>3838425
Fighting together is one thing, being forced to be in an empire that constantly cucks itself and fucks over your history is another you nigger. Why can’t Skyrim secede and fight the thalmor with them when the time comes?

>>3838425
But the Empire was beaten, so dumb weak apes together still just dumb weak apes. If anything, unification provides a way to control the masses easier.

>>3838407
>defeating Dominion by letting their agents have free reign in your country to kidnap and kill your citizens
Stop it, anon. You must admit that most anons are simply not smart enough to see the brilliance of Imperial genius at work here.

>>3838457
Titus Mede II prevented the empire from total collapse and destruction that the Dominion was about to impose on it. He proved that with time and a rebuilt military the Empire could win but those are two things they did not have. The peace they sustained was literally the best possible scenario in a bad situation.
>If anything, unification provides a way to control the masses easier
And how does dividing humanity and having them kill each other defeat the Dominion?

>>3838493
>you are to blame for getting raped by the big black nigger against your will
>so I’m going to fight you to exhaustion so I can also get raped by the big black nigger while we are both weak
>this will work out great for me

>>3838435
Ukfric doesn’t want Nords to fight the Thalmor with the empire dumbass. That’s a big reason he wants an independent Skyrim is so that it won’t be dragged into anymore wars, which is naive as all hell when your enemy is an elven war machine that plans on genociding you

>>3838502
>And how does dividing humanity
Forces them to split their attention across the whole of Tamriel, rather than simply putting a boot on a guy who wants to keep his throne. There's a reason that the powers that be want a NWO, it makes less threats and things to keep track of.

>>3838504
>bethtard starts thinking about black cocks

>>3838506
He doesn’t want to fight FOR them anymore which is understandable due to their ineptitude and elven bootlicking. Again if the empire needs them so much then they should give them independence in exchange for a temporary alliance but they care more about maintaining their globohomo ways than the actual threat.

The Empire itself works on divide and conquer, all empires do, that's how they function. The whole concept of an empire being your ally is utter retardation when the point is to weaken and control its constituent states. Otherwise, it would be a confederation.

>Dragon Age
>Do you want to do something bad to this holy relic
>A third of your party immediately turns on you

The problem with consequences mattering in games is that by game logic the player will always pick the optimum choice that doesn't end with me killing my only healer. At least give me some replacements.

>>3838506
>which is naive as all hell when your enemy is an elven war machine that plans on genociding you
Nirn is Shor's plane and Nords are his favored. It's like trying to genocide Golden Saints in the Shivering Isles, it's simply impossible. Having the Nords stay out for a while would be a much needed wake up call for the Imperials. They have the biggest population by far, why do they suck so much?

>>3838387
Have you considered the fact that trading your apprentice for another and getting revenge on both your former apprentice AND the emotionally castrated Jedi who mind wiped you is a much more satisfying narrative than forced “redemption” despite doing literally everything right?

binary morality systems were hot in the 00s and affected several action-focused series for the worst. thankfully some knew that faction systems were always more sensible and most rpgs handle it that way

Everyone bitches about the ending of ME3 but that shit where they brought back the rachni whether you paragon saved them in 1 or renegade killed them was probably the most disappointing and cynical choice they could have possibly made.

>>3838561
No. Because the story is bigger than just what you want.

>>3838697
ME3 in general was filled with shit that just invalidates everything you did previously.