Thread 3833769

is it possible to mane an RPG with true narrative choices without sacrificing the quality of the game as a whole?

>>3833769 (OP)
No

Maybe when AI gits gud.

>>3833784
Why not you stupid bastard

>>3834008
Putting side from how ill-defined 'true narrative choices' are, predetermined writing can only offer so many choices. and distinct paths.
True reactivity like from a live DM that can accommodate derails, failures and handle them with established gameplay systems is not feasible.
You either lower the whole size/scope of the game significantly to the point that the progression and impact of the choices you make as an RPG matter very little or lower the production values of anything that is not writing significantly.
Most likely both.

>>3834014
/thread

Some of New Vegas's quests are surprisingly in depth and account for things most people wouldn't think of doing even in their second or third playthroughs.

>>3833769 (OP)
>mane

>>3833769 (OP)
Of course you can, as long as you invest the necessary resources.
One thing that makes it very, very costly is voice acting, even with a silent protagoinist, although that will obviously be a lot cheaper than having a voiced protagonist.

>>3833769 (OP)
>>3833855
You kids are gonna have a lot of fun when you find out about virtual tabletop platforms and tabletop RPGs like GURPS.

>>3834159
>GURPS
I have the OG Munchkin set with the OG expansions. Such a fun game in college. On the contrary, I'm probably never gonna get into tabletop shit because that requires "friends". If I had ones that could play games with me, then I wouldn't be here.

>>3834014
>not feasible
Certainly not with the way games are currently being made.

>>3833769 (OP)
yeah but you need to be comfortable with the idea of developing large swaths of content they will not see.

just once I'd like to see a game implement route 0 where you just fuck off and do nothing the game asks you to, and the world keeps getting worse as you do. Just for shit and giggles.

>>3834374
>large swaths of content they will not see
Factually incorrect. Completionism is a disease.

>>3834378
agree with you, but thats why i say its just something you have to be comfortable with. because the gamer who will see it all is out there and he's your customer for a game like this.

many games want to offer moral choices but arent actually aware of the completionist. they only comprehend the normgroid, so the paths end up being virtually identical because the normgroid needs to feel like he saw all the content

>>3834375
They will just do a Quest for Glory 2 and have the world blow up after some days

Just take the skeleton of the Stanley Parable and make a serious game out of it instead of a meta-narrative redditfest.

>>3834380
>thats why i say its just something you have to be comfortable with
Yeah. I got you, anon.

>>3834375
thats a new game plus route in soul nomad. you just say "fuck your call to action I'm going to fuck shit up with the powerful cursed sword you gave me" and you proceed to do that

>>3834332
There are literally hundreds of communities around the internet where people are "looking for group" to form a group of people to play tabletop games with.... You have only yourself to blame for your isolation. It's 2025.

players don't want choice anyway

>>3834008
Not as stupid as you, as he knows. Games are shit for a single reason: funding is scarce and suits demand high return.

>>3834014
Not him but maybe if you design a game like a sim and strategy game with unreliable actors at base and then drop player in.
So failure or success of ''narrative choices'' (whatever that mean ffs) just mean change of actors and new directions.

>>3833769 (OP)
Define narrative.
Reality is that gaming is a poor medium for large-scale, epic and thoroughly written stories because it's going directly against player's agency - the most important part of any game ever.
Best you can get are some silly RNG-based story engines with thin layer of gaming (think Dwarf Fortress or lol The Sims) or games that focus on giving player tools and environment for emergent narratives and pretend-play (rogue-likes, blobbers, simulations with rpg elements).

>>3833769 (OP)
No. You try to do too much at once, specific parts of the narrative become underdeveloped and a mangled mess comes out. Fallout 2 proves that well.

>>3837640
>because it's going directly against player's agency
Explain.

>>3837779
>be bg3
>successive waves of writers re-write story into convoluted nonsense
>present illusion of freedom of choice, within a narrative framework that requires heavy railroading to function
>illusion of freedom of choice crumbles if player makes choices contrary to what is necessary for plot to happen, to the point of "but thou must!" or the DM handing out arbitrary game overs
>player agency disrespected out of necessity, because the devs painted themselves into a corner, and the plot would otherwise fall apart
>profit
>???

>>3833769 (OP)
we did it decades ago

>>3837779
You can't write a compelling story while giving player nearly absolute freedom to choose what and how they gonna do. I mean, in theory you can but in practice you would literally need to take into consideration everything that player can do at various parts of the game and write dozens if not hundreds of scenarios for every edge case.
What if player will ignore all main and sie quests and instead spend next 120 hours roleplaying as a baker in random town? Or a fisherman? Or a prostitute? What if they nearly complete the main quest and decide to retire into a hut in the middle of nowhere? From player's perspective all these choices are equal if not greater than killing Yoh'Mam, The Immortal Lichlord and his 12 henchmen (one of them is cousin of your wife's ex-boyfriend and priest of fallen angel of doom preparing ritual of end of the world in secrecy) and it's you job to give them interesting stories attached to them.

>>3838221
>What if player will ignore all main and sie quests and instead spend next 120 hours roleplaying as a baker in random town?
Time limits. At a certain point, the big-bad evil washes over the world and destroys everything.

>>3838221
you just follow the fromsoft design pattern that they have successfully used to give the player a robust sense of choice with minimal overhead since literally fucking evergrace: all the plot happened already, protagonist is a janitor of some sort cleaning up the remnants

>>3838240
Isn't that just Romancing Saga basically. You're free to fuck around and then BAM! ELDER ONE!

>>3838240
Yeah, because people definitely aren't seething about even most generous time limits, like the one in Fallout 1.

>>3838374
>Yeah, because people definitely aren't seething about even most generous time limits, like the one in Fallout 1.
I only recently learned that they patched out the second time limit in FO1. Cowards. That was what made the water caravan an interesting choice.

>>3838221
To be honest with you, it only takes a little imagination to think of what could happen if the player does X, Y or Z. You don't need an endless number of paths. Having only like 5 or 6 and tying them together would be more than you usually get my a factor of about 5 or 6 times. The problem is that studios aren't allocating resources to the writing or the gameplay. They're pumping all their money into graphics, VO and marketing.

>>3838174
Great example, anon.

>>3838973
Thinking of what would happen if the player does something is trivial, but actually having the game react to it in a meaningful way isn't, especially if prior choices need to be taken into account. Focusing on that means you need to heavily limit the scope of the game in other regards, like how the Way of the Samurai games offer a lot of choices and freedom, but they take place over the span of a few days within a small location.

>>3838374
It is a shame that so many people have a negative knee-jerk reaction to time limits. I think every RPG I've played that had them in some form was improved by their presence.

>>3838374
Little bitches gonna bitch

>>3839237
>but they take place over the span of a few days within a small location

I'm...ok with that?

>>3838374
Just do Groundhog Day
It has been done

>>3838174
>>3838974
>Implying

>>3833769 (OP)
>an RPG with true narrative choices
yes, definitely. it's a basic reputation system where if the player becomes a "liar" by choosing deceptive dialogue options, or a "failure" by failing quests that have time limits or survival requirements, then it becomes very easy to modify the story by pruning branches.
you didn't save the shop keeper's son in time, and you didn't even bother to recover the body? he'll hate you and kick you out from your shop. ta-da, narrative choice.
is your character aligned with evil? when the shop keeper kicks you out, you can have the choice of attacking him; then a further choice of forcing him to submit and sell you items at a discount, or to steal from his shop while he's unconscious, or to kill him outright.
of course it's easier to type this than to actually do it, but that depends on-

>without sacrificing the quality of the game
the phrase "skill issue" comes to mind. really, if you can't manage to add a few branches and keep the game at the same quality, you might be an idiot. the above stated example could be done in RPG Maker for fuck sakes, it's literally just a matter of effort/time.

the one case where it actually would be difficult is in making a high quality 3D game because the fidelity of everything "has to" match with things like voice acting, textures, and animations, etc etc... unless you do the smart design work before hand, and make a lot of it modular or easily scripted.
and you know, work within your fucking bounds.

> "the investors want more ray tracing in the graphics!"
> why
> "JUST DO IT!"
> ok here's an image to show the investors
> (the image is identical to the version without raytracing)
i don't care if you're giving me your money or not... don't tell me to add useless graphical shit to my game, non-devs.