Thread 3834886

Why did Square abandon ATB for Final Fantasy X?

Because it was time to shake up the formula before it grew stale

>>3834886 (OP)
Because CTB is simpler to design and balance.
There's a reason they went back to ATB for X-2, and it's because they finally figured out how to get it right after all their previous failed attempts.

>>3834940
13 is also an ATB game

>>3834886 (OP)
the real question is why have they never been consistant since then?

If FF16 and 7r shared a battle system it would sell more copies of both.

Because ff10 is shit

>>3834886 (OP)
X is ATB with weighted actions and pausing in during choices

Because ATB is just a worse version of turn-based combat

>>3834974
ahhhhhh fuck you dude im thinking of clive with the 7r menu and it's feeling like extremely ludokinographic. fuck fuck i wish they did this.

they should go utterly bananas with crossover shit for 7r3. just throw any pretention of this being any thing other than "final fantasy ultimate" right out the window. "everyone's here" approach where you can basically recruit the entire dissidia cast each with their own 7r style movesets.

you could balance it by just making their weapons not have materia slots

>>3834886 (OP)
>Why did Square abandon ATB for Final Fantasy X?
They wanted people to play X more strategically, instead of rushing through decisions with ATB

>>3835203
>they should go utterly bananas with crossover shit for 7r3. just throw any pretention of this being any thing other than "final fantasy ultimate" right out the window. "everyone's here" approach where you can basically recruit the entire dissidia cast
The entire ff7 “extended universe”, beyond the PSX original, was a terrible mistake.

>>3835049
>X is ATB with weighted actions and pausing in during choices
You just described something that already existed before - ATB.
ATB always had weighted actions via the casting time you'd need to wait out after queueing up an action. The characters didn't just sit there mumbling or assuming a battle pose for nothing - that was the time cost you paid for using stronger spells or attacks.
The "visible" ATB only tells half of the story, and this secondary queued action ATB only started to be shown in subsequent releases of IV, as well as FFX-2 where it was more formalized.

>>3834886 (OP)
FFX just uses FFT speed-variable turns which is what ATB really is with a coat of marketing bullshit. FFX was just them turning off the bsery

>>3835301
totally agree which is why they should retcon it all in the most hilarious way possible, a mega all-franchise cross over that btfos every lorefag

>>3834886 (OP)
Because ATB was always a garbage system. Literally everything wrong with the gameplay in 4-9 comes from how it destroys the pacing and tactics.

>>3834886 (OP)
ATB has always sucked. any turn based game where you can't get up for dinner during a boss fight is shit.

>>3834974
>the real question is why have they never been consistant since then?
Even though FF games are immediately recognizble even without being called as such (for example, Bravely Default is a Final Fantasy game due to many iconic trappings) they try to avoid mainline entries from being considered "Final Fantasy #.5" by remixing a recognizable formula.

>>3835321
Difference is that in CT systems you can't just wait, you must take action.

thank fucking god ATB is dead. that shit was annoying. your combat sucks if I'm fighting the clock and the clunky menu instead of the actual enemy.

ATB is awesome. I was disappointed X didn't have it, but the CTB system is still good.

>>3834886 (OP)
Because as FFX proves, turn-based is better. In fact, FFX has one of the greatest turn-based combat systems ever.

>>3834886 (OP)
ATB is inherently trash. The speed stat still affects how fast you get turns. The only difference is that unlike a turn-based mode, you'll waste those turns while enemies attack you while you're navigating a massive spell menu. FFX-2 had some interesting mechanics tied to ATB, but the system is total fucking garbage. It's actually slower than a standard turn-based combat system.

>>3839308
trouble finding the button to pause it?

>>3839438
>. The only difference is that unlike a turn-based mode, you'll waste those turns while enemies attack you while you're navigating a massive spell menu
You're aware that basically every ATB FF game has a wait mode that freezes time when you're in menus, right?

>>3835049
>>3835321
ATB already had weighted actions/speed variable turns. different spells had different cast times.

For example, I used to play FFIV (GBA) and meteor would take an eternity to cast while flare would come out faster than the average 4chinner losing his vcard

>>3839308
pause button exiists anon

>>3839441
That turns it into inferior turn-based combat with extra steps, where you still waste turns as your full party simultaneously gets theirs, and the enemy keeps jabbing at you while in between menu navigation. There's no argument for ATB being anything other than a poorly-designed gimmick.

>>3839445
>goal post moving
Okay whatever, I'll follow along. The idea behind ATB is that it makes battles more dynamic by forcing you to be aware of what you're doing and to have an element of time to them. Will their action bar fill up and let you use an item before x character dies? Will you have enough time to fire off a spell to kill that enemy before it gets another attack in and thus kills your guy? It's up in the air.

Now I like pure turn based more as well but to pretend ATB is pointless and that players don't play different depending on if it exists or not is just stupid and pausing in the menus doesn't take away from anything I listed above.

>>3834886 (OP)
Because the ATB system in FFIX was dogshit.
It's clear devs were were bored of it and ready to try something else. And yes I know that X was in development before IX was released, but I'm sure they knew what was happening with IX, internally.

>>3839382
Right.
CTB systems also don't have the dynamic where you're meant to use feel/intuition to estimate how much time you have until something happens, eg a state change. EG if you queue up lightning now, will Kainazzo gather the water before your lightning spell lands? You can wait until he gathers the water, then queue your lightning, but if you do that, he'll probably get off a Big Wave. Or you can cast ice and hope he doesn't gather water before spell lands and use the next wizard to stop the big wave. It's all based on the flow of battle and how time feels to the player.

In a CTB system, you'd just look at the turn order and plan accordingly.

>>3839448
nice to see someone on /vrpg/ actually understand ATB for once.

>>3839445
That's like saying speed chess has no merit. Thinking fast is different from thinking and different people enjoy either or.

>>3839448
Everything you listed could be done in a turn-based system, and it would have the added benefit of not needing to wait for a bar to fill up before you're allowed to input commands.

>>3839690
>Everything you listed could be done in a turn-based system
No, it wouldn't.
The intuitive nature of real time and perception of its passing simply cannot be replicated in a turn-based system. In ATB, you can make predictions based on this intuition. Because it is intuition, decisions can be made quickly on the fly, leading to a more kinetic experience while including an element of skill and risk that would not be present without the active time element. In a CTB system, either you hide the turn order and the CT bars, turning the risk into a mostly-random guess, or you show the info which eliminates the risk and leads to more plodding, deterministic decision-making.

>>3839437
It's the only menu based combat system I actually like for being a menu based combat system.

>>3839445
>There's no argument for ATB being anything other than a poorly-designed gimmick.
This is such a sweeping generalization. Also, your use of "poorly-designed" explain the elements of the design that you dislike and use examples and how you would fix it. If you cannot, then it's not a matter of the design, it's your personal taste. ATB was used in what, 6 games? I won't say it's implementation is perfect in all of them. Haste for example works differently in various games. I think 7 actually utilizes ATB the best, since the game pushes for a cinematic feel. With active timer count downs going at various points. Being able to hold your turn while the enemy acts has advantages. Such as continuing to get hit, since it can charge your limit break even more. And there's other various materia combos. None of this works outside of ATB.

Finally giving this game a chance for the third time and this time I want to finish.

Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are? I've heard horror stories of what it takes to makes a single character stats and getting these weapons powered up.

I mainly want to experience the game to finally say "I played FFX".

Does X-2 have tedious stuff in it too?

>>3839794
>Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are?
No.
I mainly want to experience the game to finally say "I played FFX".
Play FFX. Finish it. Enjoy it.

>>3835321
Nope

>>3839734
>Such as continuing to get hit, since it can charge your limit break even more. And there's other various materia combos. None of this works outside of ATB.
You can continue to get hit in CTB. Other examples?

>>3839806
other examples? Im not one the saying ATB is poorly designed. Point out its flaws. I like CTB as well, so I am not about to pit the two against each other. However, you should damn well know what you just said does not work the same. You cannot simply continue to get hit in CTB in the same way as in ATB.

>>3839794
>Celestial Weapons+ Sigils
if you really like the game and want to see your characters become overpowered and do big damage, yes, but only Wakka, Rikku and Tidus's are what really matters, Auron's and Yuna's are is relatively easy, Wakka's is very tedious due to blitzball, Tidus' can be done under 5 mins or weeks if you're unlucky. You don't need to bother with the rest.
I have not finished X-2 so I can't say much, but apparently it's very easy to miss 100% and it requires you to follow a guide if you want to, I'd call that tedious.

>>3839794
FF post-games / superbosses are almost never worth the insane amount of grinding they require desu.

>>3839809
>Im not one the saying ATB is poorly designed
Neither am I. Do you have other examples or not?

>>3839794
>Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are?
Finish the game first without grinding, at least. I never did the optional stuff.

>>3839734
>ATB was used in what, 6 games?
Chrono Trigger also.

>>3839734
>I think 7 actually utilizes ATB the best, since the game pushes for a cinematic feel.
I think 4 is the best. Although the least polished, it's also the one where the the devs clearly had the most passion for the (then-fresh) idea and where you get the most emphasis on the ATB-specific elements given the relatively barebones ability spread and the 5-person party.

If I had to tierlist the ATB combat specifically (taking into account both the engine and the content):

S: (none)
A: 4, 7, CT
B: 5, 6, 8
C: 9

>>3839806
>You can continue to get hit in CTB.
It's not the same at all. There's no CTB game (at least, not an old-school one) where you can just wait in the exact time increments you want before doing something. And waiting isn't implicit, you have to pick "wait" at each turn as it comes up to take damage. This is way more tedious than just doing nothing and letting the enemy keep attacking.
Do you really just not fucking know how the FF7 combat system works at all?

I notice that you haven't responded to a single one of my posts about the ATB/CTB distinction, because I carefully articulate the role of the real-time element. You just keep going after other posters who don't take the time to spell out in exhausting detail the exact difference between the real-time version and the charge-time version. You incorrectly claim it's the same thing then ask for more examples like a smug faggot.

>>3839837
So no examples then.

>>3839842
Wrong. Multiple examples given in the thread are valid including the one I just explained.
Being retarded isn't funny.

>>3839837
>S: (none)
Bro, your Final Fantasy X-2?

Trying to play through the final fantasy games right now. Loved 5 and 6. HATED 7 and 8. Haven't tried 9 yet. Playing this one for 2 hours....I should hate it. It's cheesy as fuck and tedious, but it's also kind of endearing in its own way. It's like playing in an Nsync video or something lol. Also graphically it's some black magic that they pulled this off in 2001.

I prefer the turn based system. ATB is like being stuck in traffic. You have to pay attention but you spend most of your time just waiting for shit. It's stupid. Other than some of the dungeons in V none of the games even require you to fully understand it. FF games are so easy you can kind of just bumble through them with a few potions and call it a day.

>>3839448
>moving goal posts
No. The "idea of ATB" does not represent reality. It's turn-based with extra steps. It is and always has been a gimmick.

>>3839922
>just blanket dismissing every point with 'no!'
The autism is strong with you, huh?

>>3839932
I find that ironic. This "blanket statement" is entirely accurate. ATB is turn-based with extra steps. The idea of ATB doesn't represent what the execution of it is actually is. It's a dogshit system and it's never been good, hence why they dropped it. You, ironically, are showing signs of autism.

>>3839946
This is you btw

NTA but ATB is just trash. It's just turning fast menu navigation with a dpad into something with gameplay relevance. If the games with it weren't always so easy that it didn't matter and you actually had to navigate dpad menus quickly as a skill test that could end in death and time wasted people would see it for what it is.

FF X-2 style "ATB" where you can at least pre-select actions while other things are happening is just the most basic rationalization of ATB to try to make it a sane and coherent system. As traditionally implemented ATB was never anything more than a gimmick to artificially increase a sense of engagement from dumb kids.

>>3839922
>It is and always has been a gimmick.
Correct, it's a gimmick with specific effects that lots of retards ITT like you fail to understand or appreciate.

>>3834886 (OP)
Why did there need to be a reason to "abandon" ATB? Final Fantasy is an anthology series, so there's not an overwhelming reason for each game to have the exact same gameplay. I don't see why there had to be any kind of "philosophical" justification for the change beyond "we wanted to do something different."
It's not like ATB would have significantly improved the game. The game's problem is that the random encounters that are really easy and take forever due to the slow unskippable animations. Replacing these will a smaller number of more difficult encounters + allowing the option to skip or speed up attack animations would have made the game a lot more enjoyable for me. As it is, I've only really enjoyed the boss fights since that's the only time I've needed to use my brain.

>>3840020
I haven't played a JRPG without a fast forward button set in like 20 years

>>3840165
That just means you've played TB games on emulators for 20 years

>>3840181
Yes?

>>3840165
Based. I feel like the super slow animations are one of the few aspects of older games that actually didn't "age well." It would have been really cool to watch them when I was a kid back in the 2000s, but the novelty has faded.

>>3839827
Other examples of what? What are you saying and hoping to have clarified if you're not the one that said it's poorly designed.

>>3839837
It's been a while since I played FF4 and wasn't that into it, so I just don't remember aspects of it use in ATB too well. 7 I specfically recall lots of things that happened "in real time" and battles not pausing that. As well as haste, slow, and stop magic being heavily used in it. I was one of those people that actually utilized berserk characters. The Lucky 7's thing is also insane.