Thread 3839226

does anyone else feel it's a bit boring when humans are treated as generic everymen in a fantasy setting? are there any games that try to stray from this, giving them a strength that others don't have?

also generally curious to hear of well executed examples of either generic fantasy races breaking their mould, or of actually unique fantasy races that can't really be traced back to Tolkein's frontrunners.

No, I specifically want humans to be neutral and without any frills.

Legend of Grimrock 2 has pretty cool fantasy races. Humans are boring (extra experience, wow so cool). But the other races are for instance ratmen, that increase a random attribute per level up Insectoids with extra thick scales or minotaurs that gain extra strength for each skull they carry.

>>3839232
I guess maybe for you the Imperials of Elder Scrolls would be a good choice. My point isn't that they should have something zany or wacky about them, just something that they do better than many others.

Imperials in the Elder Scrolls series are supposed to be far better than any others when it comes to diplomacy, trade, or military strategy; while maybe not as individually strong as the average Orc or as agile as the average Khajiit, but coud run rings around them in negotiations or in strategy.

I guess the problem is that in all their wisdom the Elder Scrolls decided we needed
>humans (commerce, diplomacy)
>humans (strong warriors, aka notorcs)
>humans (other strong warriors, aka notnotorcs that are black)

>>3839242
>3 types of humans

You forgot that Elder Scrolls also has
>Elves (good at magic
>Elves (good at magic, and bows)
>Elves (good at magic, dark skin)

>>3839226 (OP)
>does anyone else feel it's a bit boring when humans are treated as generic everymen in a fantasy setting?
nope, just you.

>>3839226 (OP)
That translates to versatility. Humans can do anything, compared to other species which are overspecialized.

>>3839242
I don't want humans to do anything better than others. I want to specifically play as the race that has no advantage and overcome every challenge regardless

>>3839285
>overspecialized

>>3839242
Technically redguards are not human

>>3839299
Yes, that is the last word of my previous post. Did you have a point?

>>3839226 (OP)
>also generally curious to hear of well executed examples of either generic fantasy races breaking their mould, or of actually unique fantasy races that can't really be traced back to Tolkein's frontrunners.
Not /vrpg/, but give Perdido Street Station a read.

>>3839226 (OP)
When you characterize humans differently you are going to upset both the left and the right.
Which is kino

>>3839285
You’re drunk again, Heinlein

>>3839345
>dude, it's a human but it has a beetle's head on it and i fuck it
this marxist was abused by its parents

>>3839226 (OP)
humans are the baseline race that we use to make comparisons to other fantasy races. it would make no sense to not make humans the average one.

>>3839226 (OP)
No, I think it's based.even better if they get something like "grit" or "curiosity" as a special trait.

>>3839226 (OP)
I like settings where they don't even bother to have a bunch of playable subhuman races, and instead do everything with stat spreads and classes.

I think it's so cool how Humans have pretty average stats in Wizardry, except for piety, which is very low. What strange, interesting commentary. I've always loved that.

>>3839620
Eh. I kinda like it when there are a bunch of demis that can't be classes that are exclusive to humans.

>>3839242
Actually, having different varieties of humans is a good thing you seething jew. What you want humanity to be is rootless, cosmopolitan bugmen (see: Imperials) that are entirely inseparable from one another, carrying zero intrinsic traits that put them apart from the rest of the faceless mongrelized herd, when in reality it couldn't be any farther from the truth. Race is both biological, as well as spiritual.

>>3839641
>this post in response to that post
U wot m8?

>>3839643
>I guess the """"problem"""" is that in all their wisdom the Elder Scrolls decided we needed

>>3839226 (OP)
>generic everymen
>classic wow
Don't you mean BiS everything? Except mages and locks because pink short niggers

>>3839658
>Don't you mean BiS everything?
Only in PvE. Diplomacy OP. Orcs are the master race in PvP

Since humans can fuck everyone, most people are humans. Humans are average because the average is human.

>>3839226 (OP)
Humans
>industrialists
>mass producers, many in number
>good ability to absorb new information, tech etc, and turn it into a winning strategy
Clever, brilliant and scrappy up-and-comer humans are my favorite

Preferably with a small amount of ruthlessness and lack of sentimentality

>>3839665
Perception and higher hit rating are pretty nice tho

>>3839679
>>industrialists
>literally just the most recent trend in human history
>humans in fantasy are just whatever fits my framework of the "ideal" (read: employable) cosmopolitan 21st century male
Extremely soulless and insipid.

>>3839242
TES also has

>humans (magic)

in the Bretons.

>>3839240
A game like skyrim?

We can only compare ourselves to animals, and compared to animals we're not really the best at any one thing except long distance running. Sure, we're the most intelligent, but in a setting with other intelligent beings that isn't exactly unique.

>>3839700
In FFXI the humans are industrialists because they inherited the sin of apathy from the god of death so they subconsicously invent shit to make their lives easier.

>>3839249
>Elves (good at magic, and bows)
Are Bosmer good at magic? I don't remember them getting bonuses to magic skills. They're more about alchemy, I think.

>>3839963
Okay that's kind of based wtf

>>3839955
Humans are the goblins from Warcraft. We are tool users and no animal does it like us. We can even invent our own extinction.
>>3839963
>sin of apathy
>make life easier
Hope that's a mistranslation.

>>3839226 (OP)
I mean D&D used to give them a free feat a lvl 1, that's something.

>>3839404
>it would make no sense to not make humans the average one.
Xelee Sequence

>>3840066
In AD&D, before feats, humans were always the most powerful race with no class or level restrictions.

>>3839700
>industrialism
>recent
Fucking tard
The trend of humanity across all of history has been of ever-increasing complexity and capacity for humanity to leave a mark on nature.
Giant marble quarries, roads, fantastic works that spring up over a comparatively short amount of time is par the course.

There's a line that goes through ancient Egypt straight through modernity.

Making humans the guys that innovate, "desecrate nature"

>>3839700
>>3840105
Regarding the last part of your stupid ass post, making the audience identification race (humans) somehow flawed or weak or destructive is a good idea from a drama- and worldbuilding standpoint.

It creates tension. It's also a good counterpoint to balance loving elves and so on.
Tolkien made his orcs industrialists, but I think for a modern human, it fits better rp-wise that we are a "fallen" race.

>it is the lot of humans to be untermenschen barbarians without a large state
>corvée labor is a modern concept
Pic related was built with Stone Age tools

>>3840117
>stone age
The Nahuatl were late Bronze Age.

>>3839226 (OP)
I feel like races should be classes.

>>3840124
Super simple ass tooling
Barely any metal as far as the eye can see

>>3840069
Eh, elven sleep immunity was pretty invaluable back when that spell didn't have a save, and multiclassing was generally way better than dual-classing.

>>3840067
Xelee Sequence is an "everything is shit, existence is utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things and humanity is a meaningless dot in the universe before a war between two universe-tier powers destroys all life" series. Of course we don't matter there.

>>3840134
No multiclass is as good as getting to a high level much faster, which also happens to make you immune to sleep, not to mention they could dual class. Humans were straight superior to everything else.

FFL/SaGa 1 is set up so that humans are the only class that can gain stats by purchasing items (i.e. strength potions, agility potions, health potions). Because money becomes retardedly easy to get about half way in the game, a human can easily become overpowered. There's also a glitch where humans can keep gaining stats beyond the maximum limit, so humans can also be exploited to be stronger than literally everything. But humans are nerfed because they can't cast spells - if that matters.

>>3840148
Dual-classing fucking sucks, you're essentially turning yourself into dead weight until you reach your old level.

>>3839226 (OP)
No I'm fine with it. I only play human.
I do take offense to the fact that other species are called "races" and shitskin are considered human.

>>3840298
Yeah, you get carried until you catch back up, it's just an option humans have that others don't.
Multi-classing sucks in AD&D, you're essentially dividing your XP.

>>3839242
>humans (white romans)
>humans (white french)
>humans (white nords)
>humans (black north African Muslims)
I know Bethesda nuked Aztecs out of the lore to make Cyrodiil generic fantasy Europe, but it's kinda crazy that Asian people just don't exist in Tamriel.

>>3840313
Where do the katanas and wakizashis come from?

>>3840312
I'm not a fan of multiclassing, but I do like the shorty saves. Those things are fucken lit.

>>3840321
Dwarf Thief is good, true.

>>3840325
Imagine playing a dwarf that isn't a fighter, a cleric, or perhaps a fighter/cleric if you're feeling adventurous

>>3840326
You aren't following the discussion.
Go play a Dwarf fighter, cleric, or fighter/cleric in Pools of Darkness and come back.

lol

>>3840314
Akavir, the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Asia.

>>3839404
This.

>>3839226 (OP)
In Street Fighter, we got Ryu.

Ryu is the quintessential character, because every other character is made in relation to him. Whether their range is bigger/shorter, their fireball slower/faster, their anti-air weaker, their hitbox and hurtbox size, etc. Ryu has all the tools available to a character, he has them on a normal level to be a template to everything else.

Humans are kinda the same in RPGs. We know what humans are like, we got a lot of references. So when some description goes "This race is physically strong." it will mean they have it stronger than average. And where does that average lie? Where the human's do.

>>3839226 (OP)
idiot. it's because we're human and that is the baseline for everything we do. when it comes to fantasy, the defining traits other created species will have will obviously make them more "interesting" because it's something we can't do. we know our limitations, and we design fantasy characters that either compliment or contrast our strengths/weaknesses.

>>3839226 (OP)
Humans should be the best at everything. Other races can at best match humans at a single attribute, but they will be way worse at everything else.

>>3840434
>Humans are kinda the same in RPGs. We know what humans are like, we got a lot of references. So when some description goes "This race is physically strong."
My argument is usually that if you're doing it this way you're doing it wrong.
Humans can be physically strong.
They can be strong, smart, fast, agile, tall, short, devious, honorable-- and so on.
A fantasy race should have traits humans can't have.

>>3840533
>agile
Eh, we're actually not fast outside of very extreme circumstances and even then we're only fast in the form of sprinting.

>>3840583
yeah, a cat is agile, and a human is no where near a cat. we're kind of fast, but we're not faster than a bear, which is generally described as being fat and lazy as fuck, and definitely not generally known for fast, or at least not their defining characteristic, and yet they are faster than us. Some of us can get pretty strong, but that strength, even at its best, is laughable compared to a gorilla.

>>3840583
>Ackshually
Obviously, there can exist super-human levels of any trait.
The question is, do the fantasy races balanced to your videogame actually possess any of those truly superhuman traits? Or, do they just have a minor adjustment to their stat distribution? If they mostly fall within the same range of humans, it's not really worth defining a whole new race for it.

>>3840606
>Obviously, there can exist super-human levels of any trait.
nta, but "superhuman" is just the wrong way to describe it, realistically, because what is achievable by humans is still significantly less than what a specialized animal could do.

>humans = orcs or skaven
This is the way

>>3840630
Pointless nitpicking about semantics aside, the question is whether a game actually models the difference in strength between the strongest possible human and a bear or gorilla, and whether there's a race that actually possess that level of strength in a balanced way.

If your hypothetical "strong race" is 15% stronger than a human, the fact that gorillas are 1,000% stronger than a human isn't really relevant to the debate.

>>3840665
Superhuman is a pretty wild difference, imo, between what is and isn't possible. If humans are not better at something than an animal, than I would assume superhuman means something well beyond what the animal is capable of. "As strong as a bear" is different than being fuckin Superman. To say that super-human levels of traits exist is downplaying the significance of what a superhuman is, which is something completely fucking unrealistic.

>>3840665
>>3840681
Also I think the only "superhuman" quality we can currently manifest is an insane level of intelligence, and I think thats a fine line between being absolutely batshit because of the limitations of our brains/bodies. So unless we develop some sort of genetic engineering, we're not going to get better at anything than our current limits, which would normally be used as a basis for our imaginative creations.

>>3840681
Retard why are you still arguing about the definition of superhuman? Use whatever god damn term you want. I'm trying to make a point about implementation of fantasy races in an RPG.

In WoW, Orcs are roughly 15% stronger than humans. Tauren are 25% stronger than humans. Ignoring lore/culture/aesthetics/class restrictions, you could easily achieve the same gameplay distinctions with human morphs. Tauren could just be a huge human. Orc could be a big human. And so on.

>>3840702
Where are you even starting your comparisons at? 15/25% of the AVERAGE human? or 15/25% of the STRONGEST human? And to be perfectly honest, the way our bodies are constructed, the strongest human can certainly deadlift 1100lbs, but he can't do it for very long. As an average human, 15/25% stronger than me isn't very strong at all, and its certainly not reflected accurately in the cartoon that is WoW. The female tauren seems like a more accurate representation of a 15/25% stronger, but the male looks like he could snap a human in half. They are literally built like a gorilla looks in real life, and they are almost 9 times as strong as a human. WoW is actually a pretty shit representation of fantasy if its only 15/25%. lol.

>>3840665
>>3840708
The problem is you can't make other races TOO much stronger. If a half-ogre is as strong as a silverback gorilla, then quite frankly I don't care how cool you think human being are, we're not beating that in a fight without a gun or spear or something, a silverback can quite literally rip a fully grown man in half without a lot of effort.

>>3840708
>They are literally built like a gorilla looks in real life, and they are almost 9 times as strong as a human. WoW is actually a pretty shit representation of fantasy if its only 15/25%. lol.
And yet, they are balanced for the game, which is my entire point.
What RPG has a 9x difference between races on a stat like strength?

>>3840734
It's not 9 times, but the strength difference between a gnome and an ogre in Everquest was pretty significant. base was 70 for a gnome warrior, and base 140 for a ogre warrior, and you only get 25 extra points to spend on your stats, so its a lifelong commitment with whatever you choose. doesnt matter much in the end game with buffs and gear that can mostly maximize your stats, but it is HUGE during the level up process, especially for a new player, and limits your options for what gear you can wear without help. honestly, its one of the few games that really does this kind of thing right. The ogres are fucking massive and their strength is reflected in it. Gnomes are tiny and weak as fuck and make terrible warriors.

>>3840734
>>3840749
And actually, forgot to mention that gnome warriors werent even originally possible, but people really wanted it so they made it a class option. Literally a meme character.

>>3840734
>>3840749
>>3840753
Just thought about DAoC, too. Trolls had bade 100 strength, while dwarves had base 60. With how stat allocation and diminishing returns work, you can only raise dwarf strength to 78, and Trolls can get to 118. This is pretty significant in PVP and made Troll Berserkers notoriously scary when they got their damage buff form and crit you in the face with two axes.

>>3839226 (OP)
Humans provide the baseline for comparing racial stats, tard

>>3840785
If all other races are good at something, then humans are bad at that something, tard.

>>3840800
is that what it means to be average? lol

>>3840800
i wish you weren't so braindead but i cant really help you

>>3840803
>>3840806
Just how braindead are you two? If humans are below average, they're not generic everymen.

I could conceive of a setting where elves are more beastly and forest oriented and so on, and as such focus on archery and hunting and the like; where orcs are brutish and whatever flavor tiny humans are thievish, which would relegate humans to be the wizard/spellcasting class and I don't have any attraction to that whatsoever.
The problem with humans in rpgs is that the inherently human traits you've come to expect and prefer don't really translate well as far as gameplay goes. Some anon pointed out diplomacy and I guess that could show up as a bonus to charisma or speechcraft, but that's hardly interesting.
My problem specifically is that I could not come up with an assassin that is more interesting as a human than an elf, a fighter that is more enjoyable as a human than an orc etc. unless I'm doing a hyper specialized playthrough which doesn't really end up working out well in most settings (if I'm a human assassin I rely on gathering information about my target through diplomacy rather than using magic and nimbleness to infiltrate the place, and you're rarely allowed to do so). So I guess human would be relegated to be the Paladin race, but even then, Paladins are rarely as specifically Paladin as I'd like them to be.
>>3839318
Kek but also true

>>3839226 (OP)
I take more issue when they are somehow both average but also the best at everything.
Way too many cases of "Elves are the best at magic but the strongest mage ever is an ancient human", "Dwarves are the best smiths but the maker of all the legendary weapons was a human blacksmith", "Gnomes are the best artificers but the best tools and traps? all human bby".
Even Angels and Demons can't match humans at being extremely good or evil in some settings.

>>3840749
>It's not 9 times, but the strength difference between a gnome and an ogre in Everquest was pretty significant.
EQ is the most extreme example I can think of but remember we aren't comparing from weakest race to strongest race, we're comparing against average human to strongest race. Not that it makes a big difference since a human warrior is 85. So a 65% difference. EQ also had a Barbarian race (113 base war str), and an "Erudite" race which were basically black humans with huge brains and high intelligence. So EQ kind of gets around the "humans are generic" by having three different human races.

And for what it's worth, I think the original EQ did an exceptionally good job implementing fantasy races, though stat spread was a very small part of it. The world geography, starting cities and faction played very big role in defining the various races. Ogres did give you the by far the best starting strength and stamina for a warrior, but you were evil, huge, ugly and guards everywhere tried to kill you on sight.

>>3840763
Though again, the point isn't that you can choose different races and get different outcomes. The question to think about, is how much the fantasy races are actually adding to the game.

Imagine a game where you had only human races. Stat variation between races would be minor. Instead, choosing a race would impact classes, factions/relationships, alignment and culture. Also basic aesthetic traits (skin color, face). Then you'd choose a body type that would set your character model and default stat spread.

It's obvious why few if any modern devs would want to enter the political minefield of depicting distinct human races. But I think it has a lot more potential than just trying to think up more arbitrarily weird replacements for dwarves/elves/gnomes/orcs/etc.

>>3840816
>I could conceive of a setting where elves are more beastly and forest oriented

>>3839226 (OP)
no because most people would want to play humans so humans must have strong shit. and it also thematically comes down to readers and writers being humans and looking at everything from inherently subconsiously human pow so it makes sense for them to always be middle of the road option.
also "races breaking their mold" is a stupid persuit. it begs for having contrarian races of the sake of them
>lol heres orc mage cos orcs are usually dumb warriors so I made mine a mage isnt it coold
at the end you just want races to have big diffences which really make sense for them
good examples of that are kenshi where robots are robots, dont have hunger, need repair kits, live forever and pre-desposed to genociding humans. everything about them is different even tho nothing is unique and exactly what you would expect from a fucking robot.
or take early mmos, in vanilla wow forsaken were considered undeads and all spells against undeads worked against them
or in everquest some races were considered irredimably evil so everyone hated them and they very bad reputation with most towns which limited their accessable areas

at the end noone gives a fuck about +1% damage with swords or +2% health, but if you can dual-wield 2h swords it changes whole thing

>>3840904
Yea, I mean it's common, but I prefer elves being refined patrician superiors of humans. Wood elves are often just worse versions of other types of barbaric, shamanistic folk

>>3840831
The main benefit of Ogre was frontal stun immunity. Nothing else really mattered. It was a strong racial trait, but in most cases Troll was just better before late Kunark due to regen. Thus, the xp tax...

EQ had some good qualities, but they were mostly a matter of community, immersion and novelty. The actual systems design of the game was fucking AWFUL.

>>3841381
There should be multiple flavours of elves and dwarves in a setting, just like humans. Dragonlance had three types of elves. Silvanesti were the racial superiority elves.

>>3841385
>EQ had some good qualities, but they were mostly a matter of community, immersion and novelty.
They were a matter of content design. The immersion came from the content-- what the starting cities were like and how each region retained a distinct character both in the raw content (world/enemies) as well as the factors that encouraged or discouraged different races to be in different places.

If you started a human in Qeynos, you'd see mostly other humans, barbarians, erudites and half-elf players. Elves, dwarves and gnomes would be uncommon and evil races would be very rare. You'd face a lot of animal-type enemies (wolves, bears, lions, spiders) and human bandits. Meanwhile, if you started a fantasy race, you'd start on Faydwer, where you'd see mostly other Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes. You'd encounter brownies and pixies and fae drakes instead of wolves and lions.

So even though it was just the regular fantasy races, EQ took it seriously and tried to do each one justice and give each race a culture that the players would embrace. They had a whole pantheon of deities and starting quests would acquaint players with them and the Norrath religions. The world felt like a coherent place.

I guess my point is that when it comes to implementing races in a videogame, it's less important what races you choose than how much passion you put into making the player care about those races and their place in the world.

>>3839226 (OP)
absolute favorite version of this trope is "humans will eat ANYTHING" resulting in humans being able to eat things they really should not be able to

>>3839226 (OP)
It's far easier to just use humans as a baseline since we invariably compare ourselves to others as a frame of reference. Every other race becomes "humans, but thing".

To break out of that, you'd have to go with something like Starcraft where you have humans as we know them, evolving beast creatures that have a hivemind, and a psionic elder species that communicates telepathically, casts spells, and can transcend death. Pretty much make everything so far removed from each other that everything feels mostly unique.

The problem with having other races that far removed from humanity is it makes it harder to make them similar but equal. I think the Saga series is sort of an example of this mechanically, where you have humans (get stronger through consuming stat increasing items), mutants (can learn magic, gets stronger through random mutations after slaying enemies), monsters (can eat other monsters to transform into a different form, usually a stronger one though sometimes just one with different abilities), or robots (Poor base stats; multiple equipment slots not limited to any specific item; equipping items increases different stats based on the item type, such as armor increasing HP and defense, helms increasing HP and accuracy, or weapons increasing damage and agility). You can make an argument for using any of the species, but it usually winds up where humans are the best long term investment (Since you need tons of money to buy their stat increases, then more money to afford their weapons and armor), monsters online the fastest out of the races but plateau by endgame, and mutants and robots sit somewhere in between.

I mean we have written ourselves to be the ultimate mary sues in our fiction if you think about it. Whether intentionally or not.

>Orcs
big, strong, dumb, melee brutes - shoot them.
>Dwarves
short, stocky, miners - seal the mine.
>Elves
magic, flawless marksmen, live in trees - start a forest fire.
>Halflings
light weight - toss them off a cliff.
>Humans
big, strong, dumb, melee brutes, short, stocky, miners, magic, flawless marksmen, live everywhere, light weight, heavy weight, middle weight, highly intelligent, inventors, reproduce every two or three years on average instead of one kid per century or at a sorcerer's whim, infesting the planet, and how the hell do you kill them???