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Thread 3847652

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Anonymous No.3847652 [Report] >>3847653 >>3847657 >>3847683 >>3847698 >>3847704 >>3847736 >>3847763 >>3847770 >>3847784 >>3847798 >>3847805 >>3847816 >>3847869 >>3847893 >>3847921 >>3848680 >>3848872 >>3848875 >>3848887 >>3848890 >>3849296 >>3849300 >>3849350 >>3849370 >>3849414 >>3849447 >>3849458 >>3850008 >>3850017 >>3850155 >>3850269 >>3850682 >>3851784 >>3851903 >>3852561 >>3852842 >>3853868 >>3853880 >>3854822 >>3855287 >>3855997 >>3856004 >>3857494 >>3857496 >>3858638 >>3858673 >>3858999 >>3859003
>Warrior
>Mage
>Rogue
Let me guess. You "need" more?
Anonymous No.3847653 [Report] >>3847667 >>3847726 >>3856661 >>3857517
>>3847652 (OP)
Yeah, a bard
Anonymous No.3847657 [Report] >>3847667 >>3857517
>>3847652 (OP)
Lmao, dude forgor Priest.
Anonymous No.3847667 [Report] >>3847671 >>3852955 >>3853972 >>3857330
>>3847653
derived from rogue
>>3847657
derived from mage
Anonymous No.3847671 [Report] >>3847677
>>3847667
Mage is a godless bitch or a witch unless it's some hybrid. You might as well bash rogue into warrior since both are about killing enemies with weapons following your logic.
>b-but he can sneak
And Warrior can just run around tanking incoming damage and ignoring enemies, Wizard could turn invisible, fly, phase through walls and teleport (depends on how generous the author with that, I think in Wizardry it was basically limitless and you just had to set the coordinates). In fact, nothing stops them from being able to sneak too except devs' arbitrary rules.
>l-lockpicking
Destroying the lock or opening it with magic.
>s-stealing
You can just pick that stuff off the corpse or the dev can stop being lazy bitch and give Warrior Take Away skill and Mage Empty Enemy's Bag spell.
Anonymous No.3847677 [Report]
>>3847671
In fact, if you dislike arbitrary division into classes, you might as well make the player's class "Hero"/"Battle Philosopher" (philosophy is the mother of all science and learning it was arbitrarily divided into in order to dumb down the thinken men who'd want to learn stuff by tunnel-visionning them into dumb shit like biologists/chemists/psychologists/etc). If you want to balance this you just set some caps on how much stuff the player character(s) can learn.
Anonymous No.3847681 [Report] >>3848994 >>3856661 >>3857517
Yeah, a cleric.
Anonymous No.3847683 [Report] >>3847686 >>3847797
>>3847652 (OP)
Let me guess, you like the most boring basic archetypes
Anonymous No.3847686 [Report] >>3849161
>>3847683
Boring is good. Boring is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it.
Anonymous No.3847698 [Report] >>3853576 >>3856661
>>3847652 (OP)
>needing classes at all
Anonymous No.3847704 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Even DAO has multiple specializations per class.
Anonymous No.3847706 [Report] >>3847769
Tried playing this again recently and I just couldn't. Fucking terrible.
Anonymous No.3847726 [Report]
>>3847653
meme class, one of the worst things to ever happen to RPGs
Anonymous No.3847736 [Report] >>3857517
>>3847652 (OP)
I need less, rogue is unnecessary
Anonymous No.3847737 [Report] >>3847800
You only need martial and magic. Any class is just some variation of these.
Anonymous No.3847763 [Report] >>3847774 >>3856219
>>3847652 (OP)
Yes.
>Knight
>Barbarian
>Robber
>Ninja
>Archer
>Sorcerer
>Paladin
>Cleric
>Ranger
>Druid
Anonymous No.3847769 [Report]
>>3847706
Kind of same here, just restarted it a week ago. The origin and everything up until you leave Lothering was great, but I couldn't play it for long afterwards. I think it's the combat. It's a perfectly serviceable rtwp system, but the enemy variety is very bad and itemization is mediocre and doesn't give the melee classes much to play with compared to what the mages can do. It's a shame that criticisms of the combat system made them turn every other game in the series into le ebin ARPG meme instead of just addressing the issues at hand.
Anonymous No.3847770 [Report] >>3857518
>>3847652 (OP)
For me it's POE2's class system
Anonymous No.3847774 [Report] >>3847776 >>3848730
>>3847763
All superfluous. Nothing but different flavours of warrior, rogue and mage.
>Cleric
Priests are noncombatants.
Anonymous No.3847776 [Report]
>>3847774
Not when the living dead require dispelling, anon.
Anonymous No.3847784 [Report] >>3847785 >>3847787 >>3847804
>>3847652 (OP)
I get warrior and mage since they embody the duality of matter and mind, but a rogue never really fit nearly into the triangle. My main problem with it is that they're a sort of specialist that specializes in doing only 2 things well (subterfuge and sneak attacking). Rogue should just be a skill expert.
Anonymous No.3847785 [Report]
>>3847784
*neatly
Anonymous No.3847787 [Report] >>3847811
>>3847784
Aren't they? They get the Deft Hands tree, not to mention they get skill points every two levels instead of three.
Anonymous No.3847797 [Report]
>>3847683
>I need my RPG class to be a synonym derived from a thesaurus in order to be interested in it.
Anonymous No.3847798 [Report] >>3856219 >>3858969
>>3847652 (OP)
>Fighter
>Thief
>Mage
>Priest
>Samurai
>Lord
>Bishop
>Ninja
Just the basics.
Anonymous No.3847800 [Report]
>>3847737
Only for modern, WoW-inspired slop where rogues are just combat units that have their own little gimmick.
Anonymous No.3847804 [Report] >>3847811 >>3847867 >>3856219
>>3847784
>stealth
>steal/pickpocket/plant
>lockpick
>set/disarm traps
>use poisons
>detect illusions
Where are martials or casters going to even get any of these skills? The fucken thieves guild, mate. If anything is missing from RPGs, it's builders/craftsmen.
Anonymous No.3847805 [Report] >>3847809
>>3847652 (OP)
Modern RPGs just give lipservice to classes. It's just "damage with big weapon, damage with fast weapon, damage with magic poof" flavors now.

Originally, classes were defined by actual function. A Bard was the face and heart of the adventuring party. A cleric was a conduit of godly protection while in dark places. A fighter was literally that- a fighter; your primary means of facing and fending off threats with violence. A "rogue" was not a rogue but a thief; Bilbo the burglar. A mage wasn't the slinger of spells, but the expert of the esoteric invisible.

RPGs *should* have more classes. Going for parity between classes was the greatest mistake.
Anonymous No.3847808 [Report] >>3847814 >>3848701 >>3856219
I don't understand why people want tons of classes. Just write it into your background
Honestly id prefer
>Martial
>magic user
>elf
>dwarf

For playable classes. I think that's way more interesting. Not enough is done to make these decisions feel impactful. Playing a different race is just a coat of paint. Its boring. It should be a class and color everything about you and your capabilities. Completely unique spells and abilities that show how you deal with the world.
RPGs should not have more classes at all. Classes should give you enough to base your character on. Not try to provide a backstop in and of themselves. I'm not a grognsrd but even as a kid I thought it was plain weird that paladin was a base class.
Why can't a rogue just be a martial that you made a specific way? I don't get it. Why does your character sheet have to say rogue or wizard or cleric.
Anonymous No.3847809 [Report]
>>3847805
I agree with everything except,
>RPGs *should* have more classes.
More classes doesn't really solve the issue because you can brainstorm a bajillion flavors for something. What you need in a practical sense is distinct class playstyle within the context of the game engine, ruleset, campaign, etc.
Anonymous No.3847811 [Report] >>3847815 >>3847820
>>3847787
>>3847804
I meant skill experts in the sense they can focus on specializing in certain skills that aren't just limited to skullduggery. Also yes I'm aware that rogues in D&D aren't actually limited to just stealth, but their kit revolves primarily around disengaging in combat and performing fancy dual wield sneak attack maneuvers for big damage.
>builder/craftsmen
That's the thing, the skeletal framework for the obligatory "skill monkey" role could easily fit the specialist role the rogue technically is, they just don't because it's not what you think when you seed a hooded assassin.
Anonymous No.3847812 [Report]
I don't understand a why people love the pathfinder video games classes. None of the hair splitting classes feels all that different
Anonymous No.3847814 [Report] >>3847822
>>3847808
What you want is more AD&D, bit that's literally the opposite direction that things are going.
Anonymous No.3847815 [Report]
>>3847811
*see a hooded assassin
Anonymous No.3847816 [Report] >>3847824 >>3847829 >>3847835
>>3847652 (OP)
>Rogue
Fake newfag class. It's a fucking thief.
Anonymous No.3847820 [Report] >>3847826 >>3847832
>>3847811
Anon, pls. Skills are the foundation for any profession and all can be reduced to "skill monkey" with a different flavor. What you can't do is lump the square blocks with the circle blocks and call it a day. Rogues are nothing like craftsmen.
Anonymous No.3847822 [Report]
>>3847814
I've never played table top so i wouldn't know.

But developers seem to miss so much that Legolas wasn't just Aragorn but an elf, he was completely unique. I'd want to go more in that direction.
Anonymous No.3847824 [Report] >>3847835
>>3847816
>It's a fucking thief.
For real.
Anonymous No.3847826 [Report]
>>3847820
Nah he's right. Be a bit more flexible and less pedantic
Anonymous No.3847829 [Report] >>3847835
>>3847816
Thief was such a better name for it
Anonymous No.3847832 [Report]
>>3847820
>Skills are the foundation for any profession and all can be reduced to "skill monkey" with a different flavor.
I'm not disputing that, but if we're being extremely reductive here, then the 3 main pillars of RPG class design boils down to "combat/magic/skills". Stealth is a skill.
>What you can't do is lump the square blocks with the circle blocks and call it a day. Rogues are nothing like craftsmen.
It's a square hole because the original designers for D&D made it so. What I'm actually saying is the rogue shouldn't even be a rogue, but an "expert". This isn't to say we shouldn't have D&D styled thieves, but that they should be an expert that specializes in stealth and dungeoneering instead of being a stealth guy that happens to have polymathic capabilities.

By the way, I'm actually directly ripping this idea off from TTRPGs that attempted this novel spin on the RPG trinity formula in the past, such as Stars/Worlds Without Number by Kevin Crawford. It just makes perfect sense.
Anonymous No.3847834 [Report]
The "clerics are actually just spellswords" retard hasn't made a thread in a while. What's up, bro?
Anonymous No.3847835 [Report] >>3847837 >>3847839
>>3847816
>>3847824
>>3847829
Why? Thief means just stealing things. Rogue implies a criminal with a wider general skillset like being good at combat like fucking Zorro or Grey Mouser or all the lovable rogues from fiction. You barely ever pickpocket in most RPGs compared to unlocking chests or stabbing enemies from the back, let's be real.
Anonymous No.3847837 [Report]
>>3847835
But rogue still comes with a bunch of baggage heavily associated with thieves anyways.
Anonymous No.3847839 [Report]
>>3847835
>Zorro
Fighter
>Grey Mouser
Fighter/Mage/Thief
Anonymous No.3847865 [Report] >>3848678
DAO cheats because it doesn't have 3 classes, it has like 20. It just has 3 base starting points to go from before you specialize.
Anonymous No.3847867 [Report] >>3847871 >>3847872 >>3847928
>>3847804
>Where are martials or casters going to even get any of these skills?
Does anyone actually lockpick in games where a mage can learn Knock?
Anonymous No.3847869 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
A Warlock, a Chained Summoner and a Shapeshifter would be nice.
Anonymous No.3847871 [Report]
>>3847867
Knock is a waste of a spell slot. All the best loot is on bodies usually anyway, because why wouldn't the enemy be using their powerful gear in the first place rather than locking it away.
Anonymous No.3847872 [Report] >>3847875
>>3847867
Knock doesn't work on warded locks, and in later iterations creates so much noise it effectively fails the campaign.
Anonymous No.3847875 [Report]
>>3847872
>knock knock
>who’s there
>orange
>orange who
>orange you glad you rolled a paladin instead of this shit
Anonymous No.3847893 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
rogue is just a shittier warrior
Anonymous No.3847894 [Report]
you only need warrior and mage
Anonymous No.3847921 [Report] >>3854341 >>3854795 >>3858972
>>3847652 (OP)
>You "need" more?
Yes. All my favourite RPGs are ones with tons of classes and/or abilities to choose from, like FF5, Crystal Project, and Dragon's Dogma.

I really, really hope other games shamelessly steal Dragon's Dogma's Magick Archer class. One of my favourite non-standard RPG classes.
Anonymous No.3847928 [Report]
>>3847867
>Does anyone actually lockpick in games where a mage can learn Knock?


>Does anyone actually lockpick in games where a warrior can just break down a door with his axe?
Anonymous No.3847933 [Report]
Rogues are trash. Sub-par fighters with skills that anyone with two braincells should be able to learn.
Anonymous No.3847951 [Report]
Mage and Rogue are also too much desu.
Im a lazy piece of shit so i always role warrior cause its the easiest to play (exception confirming the rule)
Anonymous No.3848678 [Report] >>3848870
>>3847865
Every character gets two specializations, though. Unless you're Sten, in which case, fuck you, or you're Dog or Shale, in which case it doesn't even matter.
Anonymous No.3848680 [Report] >>3848722
>>3847652 (OP)
>no class with a combination of melee and magic
errrmmm yes I do need more
Anonymous No.3848701 [Report] >>3856219
>>3847808
>Honestly id prefer
>Martial
>magic user
>elf
>dwarf
Those are all classes too though.
Anonymous No.3848722 [Report] >>3849447
>>3848680
That's called an Elf, anon.
Anonymous No.3848730 [Report] >>3848869
>>3847774
>Priests are noncombatants.
And this confirms what we all suspected, you want to be a sissy gay healslut.
Anonymous No.3848869 [Report] >>3848996
>>3848730
??? Weird projecting fag
Anonymous No.3848870 [Report]
>>3848678
I didn't mean the specializations, though they also count as classes. I meant the weapon/spell focus trees
Anonymous No.3848872 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
I need even less. Classes are for faggots. Classless or get the fuck out.
Anonymous No.3848875 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Cleric.

All other classes are derived from Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric.
Anonymous No.3848887 [Report] >>3854312
>>3847652 (OP)
Yup, LORD
Anonymous No.3848890 [Report] >>3848895 >>3849181 >>3856219
>>3847652 (OP)
>Warrior
You mean Fighter?

>Mage
You mean Magic User?

>Rogue
You mean Thief?

>Let me guess. You "need" more?
Yeah, where is Elf?
Anonymous No.3848891 [Report] >>3848898
For me, it’s cavalier
Anonymous No.3848895 [Report] >>3848998
>>3848890
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race as class
Shiggy diggy
Anonymous No.3848898 [Report]
>>3848891
Based

Swashbuckler, Emissary, Pimp, Marshall, and Apothecary are also acceptable.
Anonymous No.3848994 [Report] >>3852964
>>3847681
that's just a warrior with magic
Anonymous No.3848996 [Report]
>>3848869
Clerics in classic RPGs are fighters who wear heavy armor and wield maces.
Anonymous No.3848998 [Report] >>3849009
>>3848895
Hello zoomzoom.
Anonymous No.3849009 [Report] >>3849096
>>3848998
Race and class were separate, as they should be, in AD&D, Mr. Grognard.
Anonymous No.3849092 [Report] >>3849097
physical character -> fighter
magical character -> magic user
hybrid -> cleric

everything else neatly fits into those three, and branching out classes more than this dilutes the potential of all them
Anonymous No.3849096 [Report]
>>3849009
Go back further than that…
Anonymous No.3849097 [Report]
>>3849092
This guy Hexens
Anonymous No.3849161 [Report] >>3849288
>>3847686
Unappreciated Snatch
Anonymous No.3849169 [Report] >>3849175
You only need mage. Magic can do anything.
Anonymous No.3849170 [Report] >>3849175
You only need warrior. The indomitable human spirit can do anything.
Anonymous No.3849175 [Report]
>>3849169
>>3849170
You only need bard. Conning mages and warriors into working for you can do anything.
Anonymous No.3849181 [Report] >>3849195 >>3849453 >>3852870
>>3848890
You have to admit, Mage is better than Magic User. There's arguments to be had over whether Thief or Rogue is the better name, but Magic User is undeniably shit.
Anonymous No.3849195 [Report]
>>3849181
Magician or Magus is better, Mage sounds like lazy slang.
Anonymous No.3849246 [Report] >>3849257 >>3849323 >>3854312 >>3857338 >>3857357 >>3857385
this while thread is kinda pointless, warrior, mage and thief are the main pillars from all other classes, having a game with just those three is fine and having a game with any variation (or new additions) of picrel is also fine
Anonymous No.3849257 [Report] >>3849310 >>3853773
>>3849246
>warrior, mage and thief are the main pillars from all other classes
why
Anonymous No.3849288 [Report] >>3849922
>>3849161
your mom's overappreciated snatch
Anonymous No.3849296 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
>might
>mind
>technique
Anonymous No.3849300 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
I don't need. I want.
Anonymous No.3849310 [Report] >>3849340
>>3849257
nta but because it represents the 3 kinds of playstyles
>skill-focused (thief)
>magic-focused (mage/wizard)
>physical-focused (fighter)
People will bring up Bard but they forget that Bards are really just thief/mage hybrids, they're skill-focused characters that have some limited spells.
Anonymous No.3849323 [Report]
>>3849246
>battle-priest is closer to mage than cleric
>battlemage is closer to fighter than cleric
Immediately discarded.
Anonymous No.3849340 [Report] >>3849487 >>3849567
>>3849310
how are those the three distinct playstyles?
a fighter wouldn't use skills, and a thief wouldn't be physical?
It really doesn't seem applicable to video games.
Anonymous No.3849350 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
What are the best RPGs where you can actually get away with running a simple party like that?
Anonymous No.3849370 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
To add to this very powerful post, the warrior is red, the mage is blue, and the rogue is green.
Anonymous No.3849383 [Report] >>3849393
Average Pathfinder character, having 15 classes, all of them broken: "3 classes? Pathetic"
Anonymous No.3849393 [Report]
>>3849383
All shall know the glory of Gundolon.
Anonymous No.3849414 [Report] >>3849424
>>3847652 (OP)
Yeah, a Cleric, for the healing and turning of undead, and to be a backup fighter. The traditional DnD party had this setup for a reason.
Anonymous No.3849418 [Report] >>3849445
It feels like I do, because I don’t like how the fighter always has to be slow. Every god damn time there’s a fighter, he’s the slowest and the dumbest and therefore the most useless. They’re pretty much depicted as dumb cavemen that only know how to hit enemies in one single way.
Anonymous No.3849424 [Report]
>>3849414
Depends of the campaign. Casters are pretty useless on lowlevel. If party isn't going to progress to levels 10+, team of fighters and thieves is totally viable. On high levels - yes. Mages wipe entire rooms, buffed cleric becomes melee rapetrain, while warrior and thief look pale.
Anonymous No.3849445 [Report] >>3849463
>>3849418
That's why in early DND nobody used pure fighter (and pretty much pure thief too). Either multiclasses, or other combat classes like paladin or ranger
Anonymous No.3849447 [Report] >>3849580
>>3848722
classic odnd elf was mage OR warrior not mage AND warrior

>>3847652 (OP)
Yes I want more classes. I grew up with FF5 so the first time i saw a PHB i was like ' where are ninja, mystic knight and blue mage?' where is the cool shit?
Anonymous No.3849453 [Report]
>>3849181
Magic User just sounds as if it was a lazy translation of 魔法使い.
Anonymous No.3849458 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Yessir!
Anonymous No.3849463 [Report] >>3849488
>>3849445
Wrong. Pure fighter was awesome in early D&D, you got a castle and everything.
Anonymous No.3849487 [Report] >>3849490
>>3849340
In the sense of classic RPGs, thieves/rogues can technically fight (poorly) but they're primarily a utility class brought for dealing with things like locked chests and doors.
Anonymous No.3849488 [Report] >>3850030
>>3849463
He wasn't. Fighter was just a little bit better than paladin in bonking things, but missed all the stuff that paladin have, like saves or holy avenger.
Anonymous No.3849490 [Report] >>3849494 >>3849570
>>3849487
yeah I play dnd, by referencing it you're not answering the question
Why those three, and those three only(example, why not a tetrahedron with priest in one of the corners), and why it is relevant for structuring video games.

To put it bluntly, the triangle is shit, and doesn't bring it down to any real sense of 3 core attributes we use in video games.
I think healing is often implemented poorly as a mechanic, but it would be more honest to make triangle with Tank-DD-Healer as main pillars and placing classes between them if you were to make class triangle(you probably shouldn't)

>but you don't only solve problems through fighting
then where is charisma, it's very different to solve a problem through sneaking/lock picking, and manipulating people.
Anonymous No.3849494 [Report] >>3849507 >>3849555
>>3849490
>but it would be more honest to make triangle with Tank-DD-Healer as main pillars and placing classes between them if you were to make class triangle
It sounds like you're just thinking of MMOs, and in that example there's no room for utility classes like thieves and bards. Mage is broad enough that priests can be slotted into that section (as they are in that image). Magicians in many real cultures and systems of magic are just high level priests.
>then where is charisma
That's part of the utility end, labelled rogue. Think about a spy, they're rogues who use charisma. You could call the rogue corner 'grifter' or something instead if you wanted but it would be the same result.
Anonymous No.3849507 [Report]
>>3849494
No I'm not just thinking of MMOs, I am also thinking of MMOs and games that also have that trichotomy, I'm showing how the triangle is limited by pointing to a trichotomy that exists in some rpgs like MMOs, which means it is enough to disprove the original claim.
>and in that example there's no room for utility classes like thieves and bards
Sure you could, wouldn't be great, but wouldn't be any worse than the triangle already is.
It wouldn't cover every nuance those classes may have, but neither does this existing triangle.
>Mage is broad enough that priests can be slotted into that section
>(as they are in that image).
As they are not, there's a cleric, there's battle-priest, but not priest.

A half step between mage and warrior forming battle-mage makes great sense.
Little else does.
Thief taking one step towards mage, and you land at cat-burglar?
That's nonsense, that's just another type of thief, not any more or less magical.
It's arbitrary, you can as easily claim that Thief is unnecessary, and make your 3 base points be Martial-Priest-Mage and say Thief is just a martial that's a bit further to the mage side since they use their intelligence more.
Anonymous No.3849555 [Report]
>>3849494
CRPG's are halfway between tabletop and MMO. Because in tabletop any class is utility class - you just look for creative ways to utilize stats, background, etc. In crpg you get much more fighting and less interaction.
Anonymous No.3849567 [Report]
>>3849340
Generally, a fighter who's really good at fightng would be kinda dumb as bricks and mainly useful for making monster-based threats go away via death. As the other guy said, it's not that a thief CAN'T fight, but the entire reason Sneak Attacks exist is to give them a bonus because they're so bad at fighting otherwise.
Anonymous No.3849570 [Report]
>>3849490
>why not a tetrahedron with priest in one of the corners
Because clerics are bullshit.
>they can buff and debuff
>can nuke
>can can heal
>can absolutely body enemies in melee
>are arguably the best "solo" class in the tabletop
>can wear heavy armor while still having full casting and get some of the best weapons in the game while buffing themselves to hell and back
War cleric is literally a better paladin than paladins if built right
Anonymous No.3849580 [Report]
>>3849447
BECMI Elf was both.
Anonymous No.3849922 [Report]
>>3849288
Anonymous No.3850003 [Report] >>3851775 >>3855999
What good is it if a class system doesn't let me be the Pope?
Anonymous No.3850008 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
For me, it's warrior/mage/thief
Anonymous No.3850014 [Report] >>3850021
Anonymous No.3850017 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Cleric.
Anonymous No.3850021 [Report]
>>3850014
I'll make the honorable choice.
Anonymous No.3850030 [Report]
>>3849488
>He wasn't. Fighter was just a little bit better than paladin in bonking things, but missed all the stuff that paladin have, like saves or holy avenger.
No, in early D&D fighters were awesome. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Anonymous No.3850155 [Report] >>3851170
>>3847652 (OP)
Cute healer girl(male)
Anonymous No.3850269 [Report] >>3856219
>>3847652 (OP)
>Warrior
>Cleric
>Mage
>Rogue
Anonymous No.3850682 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
You can cut away Rogue, most of Rogue's skills are either about fighting in melee (albeit using sneakynigger, dirty tactics) or should be generic and bounded more to background than anything.
Anonymous No.3850694 [Report] >>3850701
I need a minimum of 50 classes with edgy names like Spelldexter and the game should contain a minimum of 69 waifus.
Anonymous No.3850701 [Report]
>>3850694
Unironically this. There's no beating something like an "Urban" subset of archetypes on rage-based 2/3 spellcasters in Pathfinder. So what if it's a "Warrior"? That "Warrior" can do Tenser while making everyone better at reflex saves and ranged combat.

Also, who cares that Kinetic Knight is just another "Warrior"? No classic "Warrior" can ignore armor and magnetize enemies.
Anonymous No.3851170 [Report]
>>3850155
Based
Anonymous No.3851775 [Report]
>>3850003
this image is extremely based.
I have a hobbit pope in my long term DnD game
Anonymous No.3851784 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Everyone in the world needs more, that's why they added so many specializations to fill in the gaps.
Anonymous No.3851903 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
who heals in that party bruv? The mage? xD :D
Anonymous No.3852557 [Report] >>3852609
My campaign has like 52 class options


Fighter
Wizard
Cleric
Thief
Paladin
Ranger
Barbarian
Sorcerer

Druid
Monk
Commander
Bard
Necromancer
Chaos Mage
Occultist
Demonologist

Pact Mage
Swordmage
Psion
Soulknife
Abomination
Fateweaver
Savage
Summoner

Slayer
Daemonhost
Tinkerer
Alchemist
Artificer
Scholar
Illusionist
Brewmaster
Avenger
Swordsage
Binder


Medic
Lord
Marine
Heavy
Sniper
Gunslinger
Battler

Rebel
Marauder
Voudoun
Shaman
Thane
Brute
Swordmaster
Berzerker
Templar
Anonymous No.3852561 [Report] >>3852568
>>3847652 (OP)
Yes, a Noble or a Diplomat class.
Anonymous No.3852568 [Report] >>3852842
>>3852561
play a dancer you obvious whore
Anonymous No.3852609 [Report] >>3852612 >>3852642
>>3852557
Oh yeah? My campaign has all of those plus Arithmetician. Your move.
Anonymous No.3852612 [Report]
>>3852609
>Arithmetician
>didn’t sum up the classes in anons post to realize that he only had 51 classes, not 52
Shameful display, both of you.
Anonymous No.3852642 [Report]
>>3852609
Considering my shitposts have gotten some of the classes onto muh fantasy game's system refrence document I would say you are lying and I am not. The pathfinder final fantasy fd20 game has a badass calculator class though. Fucking zany prestige classes in that game. Dming pathfinder is a nightmare and i find DMing my game smooth as butter. Tiny monster statblocks with built in ai is a breeze to over-prep for so its easy to populate an expansive sandbox .

all of muh classes are real.
Anonymous No.3852644 [Report]
S Rogue+Rebel, Cleric, Swordmage, Savage, Illusionist, Swordsage, Marine, Wizard
A Fighter+Thane, Sorcerer, Commander , Fatewaver, Slayer , Gunslinger, Lord , Heavy, Occultist, Chaos Mage
B Ranger , Monk , Pact Mage, Abomination ,Medic, Necromancer, Swordmaster , Brute, Bezerker , Shaman, Sniper, Bard
C Scholar, Demonologist, Psion , Soulknife , Tinkerer, Alchemist, Brewmaster , Fury , Battler , Voudoun , Avenger
D Druid, Barbarian, Paladin, Daemonhost, Binder, Templar, Summoner,
E Marauder, Artificer
Anonymous No.3852842 [Report] >>3858885
>>3847652 (OP)
>Let me guess. You "need" more?
Y E S

>>3852568
way ahead of ya
Anonymous No.3852870 [Report] >>3852945
>>3849181
Magic user and fighter are the best precisely because they are so open ended. You can call yourself a sorcerer or a magus or a witch, that's the beauty of it. Once you start defining every single one of those words it gets very confusing for outsiders trying out the hobby.
Anonymous No.3852945 [Report]
>>3852870
Its okay to have different gimmicks in each class though. Wizards have their spellbook. Sorcerers have their bloodlines and gather power. Witches have the most important familiar , get more support magic including healing but trade blasting for curses because women like to heal

When I'm talking to someone new to the genre I just ask them what kind of character they envision themselves as. Sometimes they know they want to be a barbarian or just have a vauge idea like ' i want spells' or 'i want a rapier' So then I'll ask them a few questions and list a few relevant options
Anonymous No.3852955 [Report] >>3857530
>>3847667
Clerics came before thieves you retard.
Anonymous No.3852964 [Report] >>3853569
>>3848994
Clerics came out at the same time in tabletop you fucking maroon. They're both fundamental classes.
Anonymous No.3853569 [Report] >>3853572 >>3853826
>>3852964
there have been several games that try to crush cleric back into magic user. It can be a good way to make the game feel 1/3rd magical instead of half magical.

Starting with Fighter, Cleric and Wizard is the birth of the class system because right from the gate you have Function 1 and Function 2a and 2b with squishy offensive caster and support caster who gets targeted and thus needs defense ( though allegedly the cleric prototype was more of a vampire hunter- this is where turn undead came from) Thief is definitely function 3 and there is rarely a real function 4 in dungeon game.

More games should do fun religions like dungeon crawl stone soup.
Anonymous No.3853572 [Report]
>>3853569
>though allegedly the cleric prototype was more of a vampire hunter- this is where turn undead came from
This is precisely where the DnD cleric came from. Someone wanted to play Van Helsing and so the DM rolled up vampire hunter homebrew. It was at either Gygax’s table or another one of the big name real early DnD guys, can’t remember his name off the top of my head.
Anonymous No.3853576 [Report]
>>3847698
classes should be factions dependent on attributes
skills should be gatekept by your attributes
perhaps you can learn some skills from your faction, and that's an incentive for joining, but you can also learn skills by yourself
Anonymous No.3853773 [Report] >>3853818 >>3853827 >>3857530
>>3849257
>fighter
Has all combat skills. ONLY combat skills and feats.
>rogue
Same as above but stealth and such.
>mage
Same as the two above except magic/arcane.

All derived classes are a mix of the three. Some have 50% of combat skills, 30% of stealth, and 20% of magic. Some are 90% magic and just 5% combat and stealth each. Shit like that.

And why three? Because three distinct archetypes, which beget multitude of other classes due to pattern formation.
Anonymous No.3853818 [Report] >>3853911
>>3853773
what about classes that gain their magic from other sources, not arcane?
>but... but... that's still a mage
then every class is a mage
fighter strength and skill are supernatural therefore "magic"
rogue stealth and such are supernatural, therefore "magic"

there is only one class
the mage
strength mage, vs dex mage, vs int mage etc...
Anonymous No.3853826 [Report] >>3853935 >>3853955
>>3853569
Clerics in modern tabletop are more like function x, in that they can blend roles together and serve as a flex slot depending on their god, domain, etc. Even clerics in the real old stuff felt more like function 1.5, and while they can still serve that role, that's pretty much what paladins are designed for now.
Anonymous No.3853827 [Report] >>3853914 >>3857530
>>3853773
This is simply incorrect and shows you don't know the history of how tabletop classes were created.
Anonymous No.3853868 [Report] >>3853876
>>3847652 (OP)
>Rogue
I need it called a thief
Anonymous No.3853876 [Report] >>3853933
>>3853868
For me, it’s rouge
Anonymous No.3853880 [Report] >>3853913
>>3847652 (OP)
I don't want to be restricted by class. If I find cool shit I should be able to use it
Anonymous No.3853911 [Report] >>3853916 >>3854011
>>3853818
>what about classes that gain their magic from other sources, not arcane?
First you have to define what magic is. Then you have to specify sources. Point is no matter how you try to twist it a guy who uses divinations from entrails of some not-so-giant bugs is still a mage - he may not be able to cast a fireball, but sure does know how to read portents, brew some potions, place a hex, or ward off some spirits. Mage as a concept is not an issue. The issue is how many sources of magic are there and just how many different skills are there that allow use/manipulation of magic and fundamental forces of nature. You can even make an argument that a scientist is just a mage with no magic source and so does things that are considered magic by those who dont know what chemistry or physics are.
Anonymous No.3853913 [Report]
>>3853880
If you are not trained in use of the cool shit you found, you should not be able to use it, because if you do, you will have some VERY hefty penalties, and managing those is something you will bitch and moan about endlessly.
Anonymous No.3853914 [Report]
>>3853827
I dont care about how tabletop classes were created. There has to be a defined logic to the system, and from what i have seen, in tabletop there is barely any.
Anonymous No.3853916 [Report]
>>3853911
If you're going to view magic so broadly then there is no meaningful distinction between fighter and thief either; they're both just relying on physical prowess, just as mages and clerics are relying upon magic.
Anonymous No.3853933 [Report]
>>3853876
>i larp men plowing me
Anonymous No.3853935 [Report] >>3853938
>>3853826
yeah I personally think we should split holy cleric and pagan clerics into seperate classes
Anonymous No.3853938 [Report] >>3853952 >>3853956
>>3853935
Is this what we've come to, how dare you assume my deity gender pronouns? It's a healslut. Don't complicate it.
Anonymous No.3853952 [Report] >>3853964
>>3853938
I think healing is a christian thing that few other major religions center on
Anonymous No.3853955 [Report]
>>3853826
That's not even a modern tabletop thing, clerics have always been a "whatever the fuck you need them to be" class because they can really do basically anything, they're so flexible, to the point that I still have a hard time believing Mordenkainen was a wizard with how much favoritism clerics got.
Anonymous No.3853956 [Report] >>3853964 >>3853979 >>3853994
>>3853938
>cleric
>healslut
No, this is a concept born out of WoW's Priest class being a robes-wearing healer, not a dude in full plate who nukes half the field because divine magic can't be resisted
Anonymous No.3853964 [Report] >>3853995
>>3853956
Nah. It's a concept born of your or your mates gf hassling you to join your college or highschool group but being too dumb to actually participate.

>>3853952
You should double check that anon since it's absolute nonsense. First what are christians and why do you feel the need to insert rl shit into a fantasy setting? And second mudslimes had houses of healing and medical schools, injins had medicine man, celts had druids... Wise men and herbalists and so and so go hand to hand with religion organized or otherwise. If anything west moved away from medicine and religion during the enlightenment with corpse autopsies in universities and such.
Anonymous No.3853972 [Report]
>>3847667
rogue is derived from warrior
Anonymous No.3853979 [Report]
>>3853956
Not to mention to specialization against undead. Deus Vult Miracle using Van Helsings are a better way to think of OG clerics.
Anonymous No.3853989 [Report] >>3853999 >>3857495
>cope intensifies
Anonymous No.3853994 [Report] >>3854007
>>3853956
what nuke spell are u casting, laser preists werent a thing for a long time

healsluts started with rosa in ff2, not in anaheim
Anonymous No.3853995 [Report] >>3854000 >>3854001 >>3854003
>>3853964
the fantasy genre has good and evil, good and evil is a christian concept. This is true both in gygax's game and in tolkein
Anonymous No.3853999 [Report]
>>3853989
>newfag tries to relate
Anonymous No.3854000 [Report]
>>3853995
*tips fedora*
Anonymous No.3854001 [Report]
>>3853995
>good and evil is a christian concept
zoroastrian ackshually
Anonymous No.3854003 [Report]
>>3853995
gygax and tolkein were not Zoroastrians dumbass
Anonymous No.3854007 [Report]
>>3853994
>what nuke spell are u casting,
Priests in the beginning, and I mean very beginning, Original D&D that followed from Chainmail, had the hilariously overpowered Flamestrike. Which granted is not a divine spell but being a divine caster, the priest gets to cast spells with no penalty while in full armor with a shield.
Anonymous No.3854011 [Report] >>3854159
>>3853911
you never answered my point
a fighter is a mage, cause his physical strength is supernatural therefore magic
and a thief is a mage because his dexterity is supernatural therefore magic
their skills do not exist in our non-magic Earth, therefore the only conclusion is that they are "magic"

like I said the only sensible conclusion if you go down this route is that "everyone is a mage"
Anonymous No.3854159 [Report]
>>3854011
Genuine question. Are you a retard?
Anonymous No.3854229 [Report]
The idea of what tabletop thief / rogue classes are is just as fantastical as a fucking wizard. Solo operators sneaking into a heavily guarded castle at night by weaving through the shadows and blackjacking patrols in order to steal the princess's golden dildo is not something that ever happened. In reality thieves are just thugs who ambush you on the road, pickpockets, or confidence men who weasel their way into an organization in order to rob it. This grappling up European style castle walls to break into the royal vault shit is retarded and contrived by historically illiterate mongoloids.
Anonymous No.3854312 [Report]
>>3848887
>>3849246
Seeing my first reply with your pic made me think of a game... and I'm a Trickster so yeah, I lied about a Lord being a fourth class, the real 4th is indeed Bard. Sing songs to boost spirits and win battles!
Anonymous No.3854341 [Report] >>3854675
>>3847921
>I really, really hope other games shamelessly steal Dragon's Dogma's Magick Archer class. One of my favourite non-standard RPG classes.
You could just go back to all other pre-dd games featuring it, the class concept has been a thing at the very least since dnd 3.5, likely way earlier.
Anonymous No.3854675 [Report] >>3854697
>>3854341
Those are usually actual magical archers, using arrows and enchanting them with spells. DD Magick Archer basically fires mini spells without using physical arrows. If anything it'd be closer to psions and kineticists in tabletop, classes that can fire offensive magic quickly, reliably and without buring resources, but their abilities are more specific/restricted than traditional spells. They also have cool non-bow abilities, like the ability to instantly set themselves on fire, which damages any enemy that holds onto them or that they climb.
Anonymous No.3854697 [Report] >>3854743
>>3854675
It's kinda stupid when you think about it, why have a bow at all? Like what physical use is it? It could easily just be a magic wand.
Anonymous No.3854743 [Report] >>3854935
>>3854697
>why have a bow at all?
Multiple reasons
>looks cool
>it's aimed like a bow and fires projectiles that mimic the motion of physical projectiles rather than travelling like spells. Which includes things like firing shots upwards so they arc downwards and hit enemies from above, firing shots one at a time, and having them ricochet off surfaces
>emphasises the 'martial' nature of their magic usage vs actual spellcasters
>it's not the focus of their magic, only their magic shots. They can use magic with/through their daggers too
>game mechanics
The last one is the most important. In Dragon's Dogma your abilities are associated with your weapon type; every class gets unique skills + skills shared with all classes with that weapon. A wand would look quite similar to the staves and archistaves used by Mages and Sorcerers, whose skills are very different. Having it be an entirely different weapon type increases visual distinction between them, and helps reflect the fact the class represents a cross between magic and archery. You want archery to be visible in that from an aesthetic standpoint. Oh and
>it looks cool
Anonymous No.3854795 [Report]
>>3847921
4e has the seeker class as a base class arcane archer
Anonymous No.3854822 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
Well, there were advanced classes within those 3 archetypes. I especially loved the Arcane Warrior that was a mage that used their willpower stat as a strength replacement so they could equip armor and weapons.
Anonymous No.3854935 [Report] >>3854974
>>3854743
That's my point, it's arbitrary and dumb. A class built on an aesthetic with no logic, a wizard larping as an archer. You don't have to reinforce it.
Anonymous No.3854974 [Report] >>3854998
>>3854935
>it's arbitrary
Most classes are. Arguably all classes are.
>dumb
Subjective.
> A class built on an aesthetic with no logic
But it's not built in aesthetic with no logic, it has a cohesive gameplay loop and is one of the most fun classes in the entire game.
>wizard larping
The game has 2 classes which are actually wizards and play extremely differently, hence there being notable separation from them. Their magic works differently, they use different armour, they have different complementary weapons, different primary weapons, different skills, and different playstyles.
Anonymous No.3854998 [Report] >>3855030
>>3854974
>Most classes are. Arguably all classes are.
I disagree, but feel free to try.
>Subjective.
No shit. Do I have to preface every post with "In my humble opinion".
>But it's not built in aesthetic with no logic
It is. There's no function to the bow being a bow since the bow is a tool with physical properties. Enchanting arrows and using a bow makes sense, shooting homing energy balls does not.
>The game has 2 classes which are actually wizards and play extremely differently
I'm talking about the essence of the class, anon.
Anonymous No.3855030 [Report] >>3855055
>>3854998
>disagree, but feel free to try.
How do you decide what constitutes a core class and what those classes can do? You don't really need a "skill guy" class, nor do you actually need to make magic users actually accessible to players (sword and sorcery games even tend not to). There's a billion things magic can do because it's magic, the choice of what it actually means to be a spellcaster (after you've decided you want to include them) is also arbitrary, as is the decision of the specifics on how much magic works.
>There's no function to the bow being a bow
How does that relate to the actual building of the class design? You can say the aesthetics are arbitrary, sure whatever, but why would you then assume there was no vision behind how it actually plays when it actually plays quite well?
>physical properties
They use explicitly magical bows, though. They can't just pick up any old longbow because their bows are enchanted for use with their skills.
>There's no function to the bow being a bow
You aim and fire it more like a bow than a staff. It could be a magic gun, energy fired from your hands, energy fired from your eyes, projected from an enchanted skull, the projectiles of a summon, mini portals opened to a plane of a magic, or a million other things. It's an aesthetic choice, and not a particularly outlandish one either.
>Enchanting arrows and using a bow makes sense, shooting homing energy balls does not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>makes sense
Are you fucking with me right now? Which natural laws are violated by saying "I fire my magic bolt from my magic bow" but are conserved when you say "I fire my physical bolt from my magic bow, and then it becomes magical"?
>talking about the essence of the class, anon.
So the essence of the class, that doesn't play like traditional wizards OR the game's implementation of wizards, is actually a wizard because... they both shoot magic? Thieves and fighters both swing melee weapons, which of them is larping?
Anonymous No.3855055 [Report] >>3855084
>>3855030
>Which natural laws are violated by saying "I fire my magic bolt from my magic bow" but are conserved when you say "I fire my physical bolt from my magic bow, and then it becomes magical"?
I'm really having trouble understanding how this is confusing you.

The bow serves no purpose when it isn't a physical tool, a bow isn't a like a sword where a blade made of pure force would still allow the properties of a sword to function, it's a machine where the body and string project a physical arrow, it's not an especially useful tool for aiming, you have to learn to shoot it and that's a full skill in itself. With an enchanted arrow, the bow and arrow are used as they are designed, an archer using magic to enhance their archery. With the DD magick archer, the bow is merely a form of staff, which wouldn't help you aim at anything compared to holding your arms in front of you and pointing at something with a wand or such.

It's simply a "this would be cool" hybrid class and is dumb when you think about it. No need to be upset, I like the class.
Anonymous No.3855084 [Report] >>3855091
>>3855055
Oh, I understand what you're saying now. In the game magic arrows are still drawn and loosed, and the animations imply there is still force involved/necessary for the firing process to actually work. Official artwork and animations show magical arrows coalescing before firing too. The implication is these are legitimate projectiles, and you need one of these magick bows (which are a distinct weapon in-universe and not just regular bows with an enchantment) to create one.
Anonymous No.3855091 [Report]
>>3855084
I think the magick bows, what I'm talking about, don't even have strings on them.
This is why I said it's a mage larping as an archer. :)
Anonymous No.3855101 [Report]
D&D classes are mostly inspired by nerds who read a fantasy novel, loved a particularly character, and wanted to play it in D&D.
Anonymous No.3855287 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
I need less, actually

Mage should be a trait (rare) that opens a shitton of options

The rest are just skills. I find it weird that rogue and warrior would use a sword differently.
Anonymous No.3855997 [Report] >>3856003
>>3847652 (OP)
just five.
three melee types, two magic, one ranged
rogue is the light melee class, with small weapons and things that improve them like poisons or tools that allow them to do their stuff
sword and board is the medium melee class, standard one handed weapons with a shield for typical knight stuff that isn't too "much"
giga nigga macho knight for heavy melee class, think two handed weapons or oversized fantasy weapons along with big heavy armor
one healing magic user and one damaging magic user. these cover every magic type. evil and good magic? damager gets evil, healer gets good. buffs and debuffs? healing gets good buffs, damager gets debuffs. utility magic? moving stuff around or changing things into other things goes to damager, slow fall or invisibility goes to healer. every type of magic can be condensed into heal/damage even if they don't heal or damage.
ranged bitch for ranged stuff, I don't think bows and bombs fit melee classes and the light/rogue class would be too much with ranged so you need an oddball for that.
typical group would be generic sword and board guy, sexy rogue, kindhearted healer priest chick, sick ass wizard fireball guy, pansy shithead ranged dude, and crazy 7 foot black knight guy with a giant sword.
Anonymous No.3855999 [Report]
>>3850003
what does battle fucker do?
Anonymous No.3856003 [Report] >>3856005
>>3855997
>"just five"
>describes six
Huh?
Anonymous No.3856004 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
yes very poor build variety was pretty biggest issue with DAO
Anonymous No.3856005 [Report]
>>3856003
oh poop I forgot to change that
I added the ranged thing at the last second because I remembered bows existed
Anonymous No.3856219 [Report]
>>3847763
>>3847798
>>3847804
>>3847808
>>3848701
>>3848890
>>3850269


>Mystic Knight/Gish/Magus/Spellsword
FTFY
Anonymous No.3856265 [Report] >>3856499 >>3856608 >>3857398
Why do bows need a dedicated class, anyway? I mean, rather than just being a normal weapon.
Give bows to rogues, crossbows to fighters and wands to wizards.
Anonymous No.3856499 [Report]
>>3856265
>Give crossbows to rogues, bows to fighters
FIFY
Anonymous No.3856608 [Report] >>3856643
>>3856265
Some people want being a bow or ranged weapon user to be their primary class fantasy. There are some TTRPGs where bows are better than 2h weapons for classes where the case should be otherwise, notably fighter monk and paladin in pathfinder or fighter and thief in 13th age. If you are doing a class system you need something like a scout, ranger, sniper or hunter with dedicated bow options and you have to limit bows on other characters appropriately
Anonymous No.3856643 [Report]
>>3856608
>you have to limit bows on other characters
Dumb.
Anonymous No.3856661 [Report] >>3857338
>>3847653
>Rogue+Mage
>>3847681
>Warrior+Mage
>>3847698
This.
Anonymous No.3857330 [Report]
>>3847667
Historically, a mage is just a priest from a non-Abrahamic religion. Every historical magic system involves summoning and enlisting the help of spirits or deities, which Abrahamic religions call demons. The magi, from where the word magic comes from, were priests of the Zoroastrian religion.

Therefore --actually-- mage = a subclass of priest.
Anonymous No.3857338 [Report]
>>3856661
>Rogue+Mage
It's alchemist. Sauce: >>3849246
Anonymous No.3857357 [Report]
>>3849246
How do I use this? Am I supposed to roll dice to determine my class or do the numbers represent how much of each base class is contained in the subclass?
Anonymous No.3857385 [Report] >>3857535
>>3849246
>humans are just str-dex and int
why 2 physical stats and just one mental stat?
at the end of the day stats are the pillars of the classes

and giving humans just 2 physical stats and 1 mental stat is absurd
we are an intellectual species not a physical one

clerics are separate from wizards cause they don't get their magic from intelligence but wisdom (faith)

cha is another mental stat that neither wizards nor priests posses
etc etc

classes are just based on attributes which are defined semi-arbitrarily

you can have as many classes as there are attributes and then the combinations as well
Anonymous No.3857398 [Report]
>>3856265

Realistically, swords and anything pointy should be a dext-based finesse weapon, yes, even huge swords. Bow should strength-based.
Anonymous No.3857494 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)
>Rogue
There real rpg triangle is
>Fighting Man
>Magic Man
>Cleric Man
as Gygax intended
Anonymous No.3857495 [Report]
>>3853989
WTF is this shit?
Anonymous No.3857496 [Report] >>3857499 >>3857541
>>3847652 (OP)
No, I need less.
Classes are retarded. Real people don't have classes FFS.
Anonymous No.3857499 [Report] >>3857503 >>3857526
>>3857496
yeah makes sense a 4channer never heard about jobs
Anonymous No.3857503 [Report] >>3857522
>>3857499
You mean a character's job has to coincide with his class?
Who gets the task of sweeping the streets - the fighters, the wizards or the thieves?
Anonymous No.3857517 [Report]
>>3847681
>>3847657
That's a mage.
>>3847653
That's a rogue.
>>3847736
Correct.
Anonymous No.3857518 [Report]
>>3847770
Only if you mean gestalt.
Anonymous No.3857522 [Report] >>3857526
>>3857503
A commoner, dumbass. A class isn't a job, it's a vocation, like a priest IRL.
Anonymous No.3857526 [Report]
>>3857522
>A class isn't a job
Try telling this retard: >>3857499
Anonymous No.3857530 [Report] >>3858360 >>3858635
>>3852955
Not OP but he's right.
Thieves were added because the archetype was missing. Clerics were a hybrid between fighter and mage.

1. Direct use of physical force and weapon skills.
2. Magic, non-physical powers
3. Stealth, subtlety, dexterity, wit, cleverness, deception.

>>3853773
>>3853827
He is absolutely correct. How the core archetypes were discovered isn't the point. The point is that they exist. It's been awhile since I've thought about this and I do recall at one point thinking there was a least a couple potential other archetypes missing, but it's not cleric or any of the other traditional tabletop classes. It would be like a merchant or politican or something (>inb4 rogue).

Every RPG defines its own game world, so in some worlds it's possible for the core archetypes to look a bit different (eg Fighter, Mage, Archer; Tank/DPS/support). But for a basic adventuring RPG the Warrior/Mage/Rogue really is the most distilled trinity.
Anonymous No.3857535 [Report] >>3857660
>>3857385
>why 2 physical stats and just one mental stat?
It's not a stat triangle it's a role/class triangle.
Warriors use direct physical methods
Mages use direct non-physical methods
Rogues break, ignore or exploit rules.
Anonymous No.3857541 [Report]
>>3857496
Most RPGs will have mechanics that favor builds easily-described as some combination or derivation of the three fundamental archetypes.
Anonymous No.3857660 [Report] >>3858360
>>3857535
>Rogues break, ignore or exploit rules.
Everyone can do that.
It's about stats.
Fighters gain their power from strength, mages from intellect, rogues from dex, clerics from faith(wis), bards from charisma etc.

You can't have a dumb mage or a weak fighter or a faithless cleric.
Rogue's job is to backstab, hide, disarm traps, pick locks etc.
That all need high dex.
Anonymous No.3858360 [Report] >>3858637 >>3858668
>>3857660
>>3857530
>faith(wis)
Weird how the "faith" stat only represents faith on that one class and is otherwise completely unrelated to the concept in every other instance of its usage. RPGs also often allow for dex fighters too. The only reason things are what they are is because Gygax picked a bunch of concepts out of a hat and now he's been defied by game designers. The 6 stat system bends over backwards to justify its existence often, and what's correlated with each stat feels extremely flimsy in its justification.

Rogues should arguably a wisdom class. You could just as easily tie them to wisdom based on their traits of focusing on weak spots, use of ranged attacks, propensity for detecting traps (since wisdom is the perception stat. Some games even tie these things to perception), and quick wit.

Mages are int because the occultist with a book became the default image for wizard through pop culture. Use of magic through communing with spirits could have been chosen as the default and suddenly magic users are unchanged in capability but have no need for int.

I'm not saying classes are wrong or stupid or have to be changed or anything like that. I just really wish people would stop acting like attribute and class choices are objective truths that Gygax "discovered" instead of conventions he chose based on the books he just so happened to like.
Anonymous No.3858635 [Report]
>>3857530
You could be right that so many classes being charisma centric could be a sign that something is missing. There are also too few int based classes.

i would not say 'the archetype was missing' so much as people wanted to play as burglars because of tolkein's hobbits, and perhaps also as an effect of dungeon play.
Anonymous No.3858637 [Report] >>3858807 >>3858864
>>3858360
'rogues should be a wisdom class' They should be an Int class. 4e experimented with ability score subtypes for classes. Dex/int and dex/cha and dex/str had some abilities that synergized better. It was a little paint by numbers, character building wise but that was okay for new players.

This is why that anon said faith and not wisdom. How many classes scale on wis? Cleric, Druid , Ranger? All faith casters ( why did rangers lose arcane spells? Its weird how randomly in dnd, wizardry, final fantasy random classes like samurai and ranger and ninja have black magic/arcane magic sometimes ) What is a Wisdom Rogue? Is he a gambler, a thief acrobat, an assassin or a pit fighter?

Perception is up there with Comliness and Luck for 7th stat
Anonymous No.3858638 [Report] >>3858650
>>3847652 (OP)
It's always been a kind of stupid limitation on character building. Why wouldn't every warrior/fighter have a rogue's skills, unless he was a knight with a behavioral code or something?
Anonymous No.3858650 [Report] >>3858743
>>3858638
in odnd and 1e fighters almost always wore fullplate as soon as they could afford it. Getting their armor was like their first quest and by the time they work so hard to afford it they feel entiled to that castle and those followers.

The fighter is trying to get his armor and get stronger to survive his bullshit job of exchanging blows with monsters. The magic user is trying to push to third and 4th level spells which are always pretty major milestones, and protect their spellbook and familair as well as their fragile self. The wizard has several extra fail points other classes dont have to deal with. The cleric usually wants to save the party and save the world. The thief wants to >:F
Anonymous No.3858668 [Report] >>3858807
>>3858360
I didn't say that.
In my CRPG concept mages are the wis class, there are no priests (mages can heal), and int is the tech faction.
I chose 5 attributes but this is completely arbitrary.
The human is too complex, I just chose 5 for schizo reasons of my own.
7 or 25 would have been equally valid.
I removed con from the Gygax attributes, and made it related to the other attributes through a formula.

My point remains though.
Each class should be tied to an attribute, with combinations possible as well to create hybrids.
If you use strength, you are some sort of fighting type. Techies or wizards do not draw power from physical strength, that is absurd.
Dex is again a physical attribute, so the class that uses dex is also a physical class, but fights differently. Elusive, evasive, backstabbing rogues fit there.

But the details don't really matter, you could argue that a rogue should be intelligent or wise as well, and you would be right. Or perhaps the intelligent rogue is a hybrid and the pure dex rogue is just an assassinating backstabber.
Like I said the number 5 is too limiting but if you define 50 attributes it gets too complex, so you must choose to include some attributes in others even if it doesn't make sense.

My point still stands though, each class should be fundamentally tied to an attribute or combination of attributes if a hybrid.
Anonymous No.3858673 [Report] >>3858741
>>3847652 (OP)
yes, a barbarian, a paladin, a bard, a druid, a ranger
Anonymous No.3858741 [Report]
>>3858673
>yes, a fighter, a fighter, a thief, a mage, a fighter
Anonymous No.3858743 [Report] >>3858757
>>3858650
>be a fighter
>roll a 1 for hit points
God, I used to hate D&D.
Anonymous No.3858757 [Report]
>>3858743
good tables homebrewed that shit away quickly. Max first hit dice was common enough that 4e just printed it. 20 hp kicker was the easy trick hackmaster slapped onto all the odnd monsters to make it so that level 1 wizards dont die to house cats.

some systems thrive on 1 hp though. Mordheim most units have a name and one HP but unlike in warhammer where you do weapon skill> strength and toughness > armor saves > maybe invuls if u got wizard shit you add an extra step where a unit can be either downed, stunned and downed or out of action and then you roll the die a 5h or 7th time and they may be perma dead.

if I had to DM in jail i'd prolly have people with 1 hp
Anonymous No.3858807 [Report]
>>3858637
>'rogues should be a wisdom class' They should be an Int class.
You're missing my point. It's not that rogues *should* be an wisdom class, it's that they *could* use wisdom. That's why I said arguably. My point is that you can easily justify different stats for different classes, but tradition dictates what we normally choose, for better or worse.
>This is why that anon said faith and not wisdom.
He said "faith(wis)", so both of them.
>Cleric, Druid , Ranger?
And monks. Psionics are usually intelligence, but occasionally wis is used for them too.
> All faith casters
Modern rangers, unlike druids, have become rather divorced from their religious aspects. In DnD anyway.
>Its weird how randomly in dnd, wizardry, final fantasy random classes like samurai and ranger and ninja have black magic/arcane magic sometimes
Why exactly is that weird? Nothing about those concepts or achetypes necessitates spellcasting, let alone spellcasting in the same was wizards or clerics or druids. If you were to create the ranger class and give them cleric spells that's as arbitrary as giving them wizard spells as it is giving them any other spell list or not giving them spells at all.
>Is he a gambler
Could be. Wisdom fits gambling as well as dex does, if not even better
>an assassin
Could be, if you focus on critical hits. Could also be a scout, a sniper/archer, or probably a dozen things that don't immediately leap to mind but could nonetheless be justified.

>>3858668
>Each class should be tied to an attribute
That's pretty arbitrary. You can do it that way just fine, but I don't see why it should be the only way. In Pillars of Eternity a fighter and wizard both gain extra damage from boosting their might, and even a barbarian has reason to boost their intelligence because it's what their buff and debuff durations scale off of. The game is designed so that every stat is innately useful to every class's abilities, but some are a lot more beneficial to a given class than others.
Anonymous No.3858864 [Report] >>3858880
>>3858637
>How many classes scale on wis? Cleric, Druid , Ranger? All faith casters
Paladins are faith casters and use charisma
Anonymous No.3858880 [Report] >>3858891 >>3858932
>>3858864
>A paladin can cast priest spells once he reaches 9th level. He can cast only spells of the combat, divination, healing, and protective spheres. (Spheres are explained in the Priest section.) The acquisition and casting of these spells abide by the rules given for priests. The spell progression and casting level are listed in Table 17. Unlike a priest, the paladin does not gain extra spells for a high Wisdom score.
-2nd ed PHB

>Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells (the same type of spells available to the cleric, druid, and ranger), which are drawn from the paladin spell list (page 191). A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, Wis 12 for 2nd-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Wisdom modifier.
-3rd ed PHB
Anonymous No.3858885 [Report]
>>3852842
Only thing I have against this class creation method is the randomiser not being optional. It's fine for those who like to challenge themselves with taking anything they get and making the most of it; but anyone wanting something specific will just be punished to continuously click reroll until they get what they want for no reason.
Anonymous No.3858891 [Report] >>3858951
>>3858880
4e has them use wisdom and charisma. 5e has them use charisma alone.
Anonymous No.3858932 [Report]
>>3858880
>her
Anonymous No.3858951 [Report] >>3858978
>>3858891
The decline of D&D in a nutshell.
Anonymous No.3858969 [Report]
>>3847798
Pic related was the image I remember most from those old Wizardry manuals.
Anonymous No.3858972 [Report]
>>3847921
>I really, really hope other games shamelessly steal Dragon's Dogma's Magick Archer class.

I wonder if the DD devs were fans of the old D&D cartoon, looked at Hank the Ranger's bow, and said "Let's make a whole vocation around that shit!"?
Sorcerer and Mystic Knight are my favorites in that game, but Magick Archer is just fun.
Anonymous No.3858978 [Report] >>3858995
>>3858951
>Implying older editions were good because they had their arbitrary bullshit be arbitrary in a different way
It's all DnD (derogatory)
Anonymous No.3858995 [Report]
>>3858978
Arbitrary statement.
D&D is not DnD.
Anonymous No.3858999 [Report]
>>3847652 (OP)

Yes actually. I like jobs and classes and making the build is half the fun on any RPG.
Anonymous No.3859003 [Report] >>3859031
>>3847652 (OP)
Yes. A negromancer.
Anonymous No.3859031 [Report]
>>3859003
Holy shit, it's been like 13 years already....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7olEfavHE