Thread 3847960

>>3847960 (OP)
Who's this sexy white boy

>>3847960 (OP)
Political brain rot is a tragedy, this guy can actually design.

>>3847960 (OP)
dumb redditors will take something out of context and go:
>*hyperventilates* BUT I HAVE TO FIND THE REAL KILLER *voice cracks* OTHERWISE THE GAME IS POINTLESS!
or some other stupid shit. what problem do stupid people have with jsawyer, again? and i don't mean the irony-poisoned zoomers who say he's bad just to get a reaction.

>>3848090
>BUT I HAVE TO FIND THE REAL KILLER
This, but unironically. I reject Sawyer's subversive assault on the concept of objective truth. In the end, the subverter always becomes subverted himself. Irony poisoning, like you mentioned.

>>3848138
>I reject Sawyer's subversive assault
teaching monkeys the fancier words was a mistake. there is an objective truth in Pentiment, you retard, you find the real killer in the end.

>>3848141
>there is an objective truth in Pentiment
Yeah, that Sawyer is a faggot. I didn't play his fake + gay game.

>>3848143
>insta reply
kek this nigga is living in this thread waiting for me

>>3847960 (OP)
It isn't really, it's always just dumb non-arguments and nitpicking because he's also an outspoken leftist that really likes arguing on the internet.

>>3847960 (OP)
Because as a designer he actually knows what he's talking about, unlike 99% of this board.

>>3848028
>>3848212
then why did ALL of his games fail?

>>3848227
Because a game is made by +60 people on that scale and games being successful or not don't actually have much to do with how good they are.

>>3847960 (OP)
>design philosophy
Say what? No such thing in poe.

>>3847960 (OP)
>>3847980
I think it's Jeff Goldblum

>>3848230
That's cope, in any modern software and in videogames more than anything, user satisfaction leads to higher revenue. Sawyer made one good game, New Vegas, based on a legacy system from another company, that's it. All he did after that was mid so Obsidian received a mild reception for their products at best.

It's so funny to me how this faggot kept publishing statistics comparing PoE 1 and 2 trying to find out why PoE2 bombed when it is so obvious.

>>3848252
it's obviously users' fault for not being satisfied then duh

>>3848252
>That's cope
No that's reality and you're ignorant if you think otherwise.
Making a good game is not a guarantee it will sell. Good reviews and player reception (reviews) is no guarantee it will sell well. In fact there's graveyards filled with games and companies that disprove this well over 20 years back. I'm sure you have several games you like that didn't sell well.
There are outright bad games on steam that can sell really well. Many bad and poorly reviewed games (by everyone) have sold well.

If you can't even understand and know this, then you're not worth interacting with.

ahem

Because he can't design for shit. Pillars was his only game where he actually designed something himself and it failed hard.
Everything else was carried by the writers and systems being made by more competent people.

Josh is a designer that should never have become a director and instead focused on just designing.

>>3848287
He's not a designer (any design he touched is trash) and Larian are atrociously bad at game design.

>>3848294
>He's not a designer (any design he touched is trash) and Larian are atrociously bad at game design.
I will take bad over the boredom that was pillars.

>>3848298
Except the system design is good in PoE and especially Deadfire. That is not a problem the games have.

I would also play some generic JRPG over whatever BG3 was supposed to be with lopsided chapter quality, atrociously bad characters and writing, butchering of the series, moronic D&D implementation, trash encounter design, paying lipservice to reactivity, retarded roleplaying choices (dex check to grovel and kiss goblin feet), trash UI and so on. The only way to enjoy BG3 is if you've been lobotomized.

>>3848300
>Except the system design is good in PoE and especially Deadfire. That is not a problem the games have.
It is dnd but made worse. It is not good or interesting in any way.
>I would also play some generic JRPG over whatever BG3 was supposed to be with lopsided chapter quality, atrociously bad characters and writing, butchering of the series, moronic D&D implementation, trash encounter design, paying lipservice to reactivity, retarded roleplaying choices (dex check to grovel and kiss goblin feet), trash UI and so on. The only way to enjoy BG3 is if you've been lobotomized.
Okey, we get it, you hate bg3. Bg3 design was always gonna suck because it is 5the edition dnd.

>>3848300
>Except the system design is good in PoE
muscle wizard lmao

>>3848274
Keep on coping, if a 10+ year veteran can't get his game to sell it's his own fault because:
>he didn't properly research the market and understand what tendencies modern players have in 2018
One glaring issue Pillars games have is the overblown purple prose at a time where players seek out cinematic experiences and zone out of reading, he also made a mistake by trying to make the ruleset bigger, not to mention his autistic balance tendencies which suck the fun out of it. RPG players love breaking systems, and you can see this in better performing titles like BG3 and DOS:2

>nostalgia bait could only carry him so far after the revival of the CRPG genre
There is nothing interesting about PoE2 and their marketing was lacking, the crowdfunded buzz had died out at that point. What did they even expect? Shit like DOS: 2 already blew them out of the water and PoE2 had nothing interesting to compete for attention other than gay fish men and sweaty gay pirates.

Think about it, by 2018 the best marketing possible are streamers playing the game, what's interesting about reading for 15 minutes about the economic collapse of niggertaly? If at least the writing had something that made it stand out, like Disco Elysium(2019!), instead of just being boring exposition dump, maybe it could have been salvaged.

>uhh but the gameplay is go-
hell no, it's boring as fuck, you go from boring conversation to boring RTWP combat, to boring ship management to boring shit naval combat to boring exploration of a boring ugly woke setting with boring quests

The only surprising thing here is how PoE was succesful despite being mediocre, and the answer is obvious, it had little to no competition. Once other products came out which were much more interesting, PoE2 obviously failed to meet expectations.

>>3848315
>cope
If you want to be taken seriously and want people to read your post, try relying less on logical fallacies, being less ignorant and close-minded.
You didn't disprove a single thing I said and instead rambled on about irrelevant fallacies as a way for you to (ironically) cope.
No, you will not get another (you). i save that for people capable of basic discussion. Get a trip so people can filter you.

>>3848323
I don't need your validation buddy, Pillars is already dead

>>3848325
So are many of your favorite games and games you like.

>>3848315
>balanc
What do you mean with ''balance''? In his games you cannot get overpowered?

>>3848315
Any dev who cares that much about "the market" isn't worth even thinking about.

>>3847960 (OP)
stop spamming this fag and pm him on twatter if you want to suck his dick you closeted faggot

>>3848183
>It isn't really, it's always just dumb non-arguments and nitpicking because he's also an outspoken leftist that really likes arguing on the internet.
This does make it difficult to take someone seriously.

>>3848315
They hated him because he told the truth

>>3848315
>One glaring issue Pillars games have is the overblown purple prose at a time where players seek out cinematic experiences and zone out of reading
PoE wasn't a "game for everyone" it was targeting a specific niche of role-playing gamers who said they liked RPGs with a lot of text. As usual, stated preferences differ from revealed preferences. Disco Elsyium solved the reading problem by breaking all conversations into small chunks, like twitter.

>>3848443
>PoE wasn't a "game for everyone" it was targeting a specific niche of role-playing gamers who said they liked RPGs with a lot of text.
Poe was targeting fans of BG1 with a new BG1 style game. Everything else was Obsidian projecting.

>>3848227
I have perhaps been misinterpreted, he has the technical skill to design, which is partly undermined by the schizo shit.

>>3848448
Avellone said that internally, no one was discussing BG or Bioware at all. They were going for "Infinity Engine" fans in general.

>>3848468
so for BG fans cause they outnumber every other IE game 10 to 1

>>3848468
It was very explicitly intended to be a callback to BG. Look at the mouse cursor.

>>3848227
What do you mean by "fail" in this context
FNV is literally a classic
PoE is one of the most successful games of the mid 2010s crpg renaissance
PoE2 while not significant commercially is widely accepted to be a significant improvement on already good PoE mechanics
Pentiment is pretty much universally accepted as a great "art game"

sounds to me like you gotta really stretch "fail" to fit these games into it

>>3848485
And Torment and Icewind Dale which had similar stylized cursors.

>>3848252
>user satisfaction leads to higher revenue
the only thing obvious here is that you are either a fat troll or a complete retard

>>3847960 (OP)
the REAL answer is that it's not the design that is polarizing
It's the man
and everyone obsessing over american politics
close thread

there's not a soul on earth who could have directed NV better than Sawyer did. His brand of autism was exactly what the game needed in terms of mechanics, balance, skills and progression.

>>3848559
I've said it before, but Josh is a good designer but bad writer and director.

>>3848559
this isn't even autism, it's basic competence

If I had a nickel for every time a gay commie ruined a detective game I'd have a 25 cents.

Tired of this shit, I want a mystery not a political lecture!

>>3848715
Nah. I doubt even other people at obsidian who had directed games could have done as good a job as sawyer. Especially when it comes to weapons and shit.

>>3848725
>No one knows more about guns than a gay C*lifornian leftoid

>>3848744
did you black out while reading my post? I sad "at obsidian"
look at the the other games obsidian was putting out around NV's time. Do you think Avellone or the guy who directed fucking Alpha Protocol would have done a better job of balancing NV's weapons and stats?

>>3848755
They made the giant flamethrower share a weapon skill with a dinky laser pistol, dude.

>>3848719
Pentiment isn't a detective game.

>>3848762
that's how fallout is supposed to work and (you) don't belong here because you only ever played pissfilter era action fallouts

>>3848498
>PoE is one of the most successful games of the mid 2010s crpg renaissance
We bought it because we expected BG1 wilderness kino. Instead we got grimdark urban slop. Very dishonest to call it the CRPG renaissance when we all wisened up to the fraud immediately, as seen with PoE2's sales.

>>3848838
>wisened up
Seems like you didn't since people bought Pathfinder and BG3, which were all slop too.

>>3848849
That's right, I paid full 50 bucks for Kingmaker since it appeared to be all wilderness (and I thought there would be a rival party). And BG3 also has a refreshing first act and full nudity. They might be slop but they weren't fraud.

>>3848861
>bg3
>not fraud
I too like only getting 1/3 of a game when I buy it.

>>3848806
>that's how fallout is supposed to work and (you) don't belong here because you only ever played pissfilter era action fallouts
You are dumb. I was probably playing Fallout before you were born.

>>3848899
Flamethrower fits more into energy weapons and makes big guns less bloated. Big guns are more about very heavy weapons all about big raw damage numbers. Like upgraded Small Guns.
Energy weapons are more about weapons with alternate functions and attributes like plasma, laser, sonic, electric, fire. Not always doing big damage numbers.
You could argue Small Arms, Big Guns and Energy Weapons are bad names (which they are) and should be renamed, but that would trigger fanboys.

>>3847960 (OP)
Cause he's a pretentious faggot

>>3848905
>Flamethrower fits more into energy weapons
No, it doesn’t, because it’s a large and bulky weapon that handles and functions completely differently. Its recoil impulse is different. Its loading is different. Its care and maintenance is different. The entire gameplay conceit of lumping different weapons into one skill category (to avoid literally every weapon having a distinct skill) is based on them having similar characteristics and handling, such that proficiency in using one would reasonably carry over some cross-proficiency into another weapon of the same category. There’s zero carryover between a giant flamethrower and a laser pistol.
>and makes big guns less bloated
Bloated? There’s literally three big guns, by far the smallest weapon category in the game.
>Big guns are more about very heavy weapons all about big raw damage numbers.
The flamethrower is the epitome of a high risk high reward weapon. It has a tiny range, a small magazine capacity, a high AP cost, and high damage.
>Energy weapons are more about weapons with alternate functions
Wat
>and attributes like sonic
Wat

The only weapon that can be argued is miscategorized is the Gatling laser. It’s similar enough to a minigun in terms of handling that an argument can be made for big guns, however it’s also different enough from a minigun that an argument can be made for energy weapons. Personally I think it should’ve been a big gun, but putting it in energy weapons is also somewhat reasonable. But putting the flamethrower into energy weapons is completely retarded and illogical.

>>3848925
>No, it doesn’t, because it’s a large and bulky weapon that handles and functions completely differently.
It doesn't function like a minigun or rocket launcher either. Big Guns is a mishmash and undefined catchall. It's a bad category and name.
The way weapon categories are split up is bad in Fallout.

>>3848762
Sawyer's design philosophy is that every combat skill needs to be viable from beginning to end. Big Guns wasn't. These edge cases need to get folded into somewhere. With Van Buren he wanted to fold anything gun-like into a single firearms skill, New Vegas wasn't as extreme as that since Bethesda had already made lower-tier energy weapons in Fallout 3. His initial idea for New Vegas was to do the same for Big Guns, quickly realized it was stupid, spread them out instead.

>>3848933
They’re not exactly the same, but a minigun and a flamethrower are more similar in terms of handling and use than a flamethrower and a laser pistol are.
In terms of gameplay abstractions, I stated that
>The entire gameplay conceit of lumping different weapons into one skill category (to avoid literally every weapon having a distinct skill) is based on them having similar characteristics and handling, such that proficiency in using one would reasonably carry over some cross-proficiency into another weapon of the same category
>>3848960
>Sawyer's design philosophy is that every combat skill needs to be viable from beginning to end. Big Guns wasn't.
This is a dumb philosophy. Why shouldn’t there be some weapon categories that, by their nature, are rare, expensive, and exotic? They’re cheapened, otherwise. Why does every type need to be smeared out across every level range? It’s arbitrary and unrealistic. You can already pick small guns and they’re viable from start to finish, you can already pick melee and they’re viable from start to finish. You can pick multiple weapon types and use them in different phases of the game. Last time I played Fallout, I used melee for the early/mid game and only used big guns in the late game, once they were available. Worked fine.

>>3848838
>We
>we
>we
who the fuck is "we"?
like are you 3 kobolds in a trenchcoat?

>>3849058
>a kobold, an xvart, and a tasloi named Larry, Darryl, and Darryl walk into a bar

>>3848985
>Why does every type need to be smeared out across every level range?
do you really need anyone else to answer that for you?
I think you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself.

>>3849062
*tags big guns in fallout 1, which explicitly states that it applies to miniguns, missile launchers, and flamethrowers*
>Reeeeeeeeee why wasn’t I given an endgame minigun at the start of the game as a level 1 pampered vault dweller with zero combat experience, the overseer gets two miniguns while I get none, this isn’t equitable!
*tags big guns in fallout 2, which explicitly states that it applies to miniguns, missile launchers, and flamethrowers*
>Reeeeeeeee why wasn’t I given a missile launcher in the temple of trials to beat these ants, even though I’m a level 1 tribal who has no idea what the fuck a missile launcher even is, I’m being discriminated against by not being able to use my skill until later in the game!

>>3849058
The buyers, duh. The dude is praising PoE for its financial success yet the reality is that almost none of the customers were retained. Or are you a slav who wants to proclaim that he pirates his games?

>>3849070
"You can tag this skill at character creation and spend points on it in the beginning but never actually use it until many hours into the game" just doesn't feel right. Tim Cain also regrets doing it this way.

>>3848985
>>3848933
>>3849070
I feel like the exotic argument is a bit weird considering Fallout's flamethrower looks like this. It's a far cry from 3's generic M2 Flamethrower.
and the laser pistol is very much ergonomically a regular semi-auto pistol and the laser rifle is literally a sniper rifle with some wires.

as seen in >>3849021
Obsidian was already starting to want to ditch the Big Guns skill when making Van Buren. It wasn't necessary to keep in New Vegas because of Sawyer's listed reasons.

>>3847960 (OP)
>polarizing
Sawyer would have to be at all relevant for this to be a true. He's an unknown video game developer who loves nonwhites. That's it. Tim Cain outdid his YouTube channel in a single day.

>>3849182
But anon, he's famous poster "rope kid" from Something Awful

>>3847960 (OP)
Avellone > Sawyer

>>3849182
Sawyer is the most relevant and well known RPG designer out there, even if you factor in Tim Cain (which isn't a designer).
And unlike whatever snowflake you want to point to, Josh actually goes indepth in his many talks (on his channel, conferences and talks) and posts on his site.
He has long longs about stats, armor system, reputation systems and more.
Point out more relevant RPG designers.

>>3849249
You can't be a relevant designers when your games are irrelevant. He hasn't designed relevant games.

>>3849292
Nice fallacy that also dodges the question. You only admitted to being close-minded and irrational.
>Point out more relevant RPG designers.
If you keep dodging the question it's because you can't answer it, but you're in denial and shitpost to cope.

>>3849320
It's not a fallacy at all. Josh Sawyer hasn't designed any notable games. He's not a developer of note. His greatest accomplishment is working on a glorified expansion for Fallout 3, which is notoriously unfinished and broken. He hasn't worked on a relevant RPG in nearly a decade.

Josh Sawyer is irrelevant, objectively.

>>3848583
Nah, he wrote Joshua Graham. I think that automatically makes you at the very minimum not a bad writer.

>>3849389
You don't know what a logical fallacy is.
You dismiss all of the things stated at >>3849249 while presenting irrelevant fallacies based on your own personal, and convenient, criteria. You've done nothing but spout logical fallacies.
You can't even answer the question you ignore, which is
>what are some "relevant" rpg designers

You are a close-minded ignorant manchild, paralyzed of the idea of being wrong. Or if you prefer a tl;dr, I accept your concession

>>3849402
He can write certain types of characters, typically more dry or serious, because that's what he likes. But design is where he is best, what he has done the most and where his passion lies.

>>3849320
>Point out more relevant RPG designers.
swen vincke, emil pagliarulo

>>3849710
Swen is not a designer. Even Tim Cain is more of a designer and he is a self professed ok programmer that doesn't even involve himself in the recruitment process of designers, since he doesn't work with design. And whatever minor design work Swen was involved in is utterly irrelevant. Besides, when have you ever seen Swen talk more in-depth about design? Never. It's not his field.

>emil pagliarulo
For your sake I'm going to pretend this is a joke. He is known as one of the most incompetent men at Bethesda, with achivements like being design director and lead writer on Starfield. The man that made this speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi51-wjcwp8

>>3849719
>He is known as one of the most incompetent men at Bethesda
and he's more relevant than josh sawyer

>>3849746
If you want to be disingenous faggot, don't expect serious replies. "Relevant" is not whatever you personally decide that suits you. And you clearly have no idea what Swen has done or could answer the questions I asked you, so you concede that I am correct. But what can you expect from deranged close-minded faggots like you.

>>3848090
Man, didn’t know Sawyer is so tall. Also, Avelone beefed up considerably.

>>3849751
a designer is not someone you personally decide that suits you
god, you're such a faggot that you might be josh himself as well
and pagliarulo is like twenty times more relevant than him btw

>>3849446
Josh Sawyer is not and has not been relevant, thus he can't be considered one to begin with. Look at any of the successful CRPGs released since PoE and know that those designers are actually relevant. Your e-celeb worship is childish.

>>3849719
Bro, Swen is a programmer, game designer and director. He's the reason Larian continue making games that are true to themselves.

>>3849746
>swen
>designer

Taking credit for someone else's work doesn't make you a designer.
What good systems, quests, levels, mechanics, etc did Swen personally design? What design talks has he done where he breaks his design work down? When has be publically spoken about how he personally designed something?

>>3849757
>so buckbroken he defends pagliarulo

I too vastly prefer Starfield over New Vegas.

>>3849757
Only thing relevant about Emil is that it's very relevant to not have him work on your game. You get Fallout 4 and Starfield with him in charge, your get Far Harbor when he has no involvemen and a massive leap in quality. Emil is the anti-Midas.

>>3847960 (OP)
Is he the 'both sides bad' writer or is that Avellone?

>>3849775
Vincke is the director of every Larian project, he approves of everything, he just doesn't do the actual implementation.

>>3849874
Directors don't even personally approve of anything unless it's a big feature. They spend most of their time in meetings with other directors or leads for status updates, playtest the game and then give vague superficial suggestions for changes. In rare cases some directors also do some extra work like art, coding, design, writing depending on their background and if they like doing it.
The aforementioned Emil gets involved in writing, when he should stay away from it. Josh has done design and writing work on top of directing at hte same time. Swen just focuses on directing.
Swen works best when not designing anything and just directs. Josh works best as a director that designs some things, mainly systems or some specific characters that fits his style like Joshua Graham. Emil works best as an idea guy that does no actual work on the game.

>>3849880
There are enough glassdoor reviews of people complaining about how Vincke micromanages everything for me to believe those are true. It's his company 100%.

>>3849884
>It's his company 100%.
khm-khm tencent khm-khm
I don't have a horse in the race, you two continue your SO

>>3849776
>defends
i'm just stating that he's more relevant than josh which is a fact

Is this fag actually gonna work on games again or just spend all day hating himself for being white while worshiping blacks?

>>3848090
>if story telegraphs a plot its unrealistic to expect it to be resolved in some satisfactory manner.
oh look, a guy which loves nu star wars, nu lotr and jj abrams writing. indeed, writers should never be assed to tie their stories up or plan ahead, just write whatever you feel like and add lots of action to distract medias consumer.
>>3848287
king

>>3848394
Sawyer is often called 'balanceman' in denigrating fashion, usually due to PoE1's inimical and unrewarding combat (literally, no XP from killing shit). This made folks who enjoy theorycrafting and the crunchy side of RPG systems understandably annoyed, as it made combat pointless, especially when almost all classes were essentially designed to all have a roughly equal chance of success. It made classes feel generic.

Except for cypher.

>>3850138
that reminds me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUCg9VBJ62U

>>3850138
>loves nu-shit
do you have any actual arguments apart from strawmen?
>writers should never be assed to tie their stories up or plan ahead
this isn't a book or a movie story-fag
for what it's worth I admire Sawyer for trying to bring the ttrpg-style plots into computer gaming
as a DM you don't plan the story ahead of play, you present hooks/starting situations and create the story around players' actions

I'm not saying Sawyer perfectly succeeded, but I admire the effort and trying fresh things

>>3850163
>unrewarding combat (literally, no XP from killing shit)
first of all this isn't true
there are diminishing returns on XP from killing shit, not "no XP from killing shit"
>made classes feel generic.
what sort of bullshit is this?
forget class specialization, such as rogues having all those things that get them to hit harder, paladins get all those party-wide buffs and protection, wizards can swap grimours
but there are also unique class-resource generation mechanics
monks want to get wounds,
bards get it with time by singing chants,
ciphers get it by dealing damage
how the fuck does it feel generic?
>especially when almost all classes were essentially designed to all have a roughly equal chance of success
where are you even getting this from?
you know what fuck it
don't reply
it's obvious you haven't played the game for any substantial amount of time and are not capable of having a genuine discussion

>>3850250
You can't argue with xp addicts. They wouldn't even notice it if xp rewards and how much experience it took to level were completely obscured from the player, but if a game removes "you got 38 xp for killing this creature, 2,962 left to go until your next level-up" they just lose it.

>>3850250
>there are diminishing returns on XP from killing shit, not "no XP from killing shit"
You get a trivial amount of XP for the first few times you kill an enemy, and then zero for the rest of the game. Not generally what is meant by "diminishing returns", which implies an asymptotic non-zero amount. The XP is based on filling out the bestiary, and then stops once complete.

>>3850163
You don't understand the point of his design philosophy.
In both PoE1 and 2 you can minmax the game. Some combos and builds are better than others, very noticeably so.
What Sawyer doesn't like (and I agree with him) is that if the player is given an option or choice, it should not be a false or unsupported choice. If a player can pick between 3 backgrounds
>merchant
>noble
>criminal
and are all presented equally as viable and supported, but merchant and criminal only have 3 reactive dialogue choices each in the entire game with zero impact, but noble has 25 dialogogue choices with 8 of them doing big changes, rewards or reactivity is that is very poorly balanced. Even IF you for some reason wanted effectively pointless unsupported backgrounds, you should present them as such.
Same deal with classes and builds. If you allow a player to pick to be a dwarven mage thief multiclass that should at least be ok and allow you to finish the game on normal. That is good design and balance. Otherwise you're not only giving the player false choice, but tricking them while also giving players fewer ways to play the game for no good reason at all.

>>3850280
>asymptotic non-zero
obviously not when dealing with discrete non-continuous values, such as XP
anyway we can argue if diminishing returns fit here
it does because you have returns, which diminish
but saying you get no XP for killing mobs at all is just plainly not true

>>3850319
>anyway we can argue if diminishing returns fit here
I don't think it does, since 'diminishing returns' implies that you will always get some return, albeit less and less, but not zero.
>but saying you get no XP for killing mobs at all is just plainly not true
Yes, that anon was being a bit hyperbolic by saying that you get "literally, no XP from killing shit" You do get a little bit initially up until a fixed total, then it drops to zero. Feels bad, IMO.

>>3850327
>literally, no XP from killing shit
if you literally do get XP for killing shit that's not being hyperbolic that's literally being wrong and/or lying
>'diminishing returns' implies that you will always get some return
that might be your understanding, but no, it doesn't

>game isn't designed to drive people to grind mobs for xp
>this is bad somehow

Better to drive people to get XP from quests and roleplaying.

>>3848183
>it's always just dumb non-arguments
Comments like this are why.
Sawyers fans are infinite midwits who simultaneously believe they are geniuses and know better than everyone yet are incapable of processing arguments or design principles from outside their bubble.
>>3848300
>Except the system design is good in PoE
It's mediocre at best. The system itself is elegant, the problem is too often forgetting why RPG systems exist in the first place: to model an alternate reality in a way that excites and inspires the imagination.
"Eora is a place where being intelligent means you have a 50% bonus on your AoE radius"
boring

>>3850243
>story-fag
>he says while talking about a CYOA-adjacent RPG with no combat
pots, kettles, blacks; plot is one part of a larger narrative you dolt
if you want to bring up tabletops and DMs, then you should know better than anyone that the fundamental experience of running a game involving real human beans cannot be properly adapted in a videogame
a game is like a book in that it has beginning, middle, and end, all set by the author; a game is unlike a tabletop campaign in that it cannot swerve, because rails were made by the developer
interpreting player actions into a variable yet preset conclusion is not a unique thing but then who the fuck played westerado lmao, but this approach has neither the strength of personal connection that comes from YOUR GAME and YOUR STORY, nor the focus of an established ending

i am always reminded by the statement that went along the lines of "hey since we're making a *C*RPG we can actually make use of complicated computations and not plain dice" and then PoE's attack rolls were effectively d100
that's what sawyer's advances and experiments are: a sidegrade

>>3850425
>"Eora is a place where being intelligent means you have a 50% bonus on your AoE radius"
>boring
No what's boring is min max where stats are either important or useless.
In PnP you roll for stats and try to make them work. In games players choose to go all in on some stats and use others for dump stats. This results in zero creativity, zero distinction from anyone else, zero relevant player choice.

Making all stats important and useful for all classes is a great idea and how it should be. You could argue the execution wasn't perfect, but I'll take that over the shitty DnD stats.

>>3850441
>No what's boring is min max where stats are either important or useless.
Yep. Heard that argument roughly ten billion times from Sawyerfags who COMPLETELY MISS the relevance of this comment:
>[RPG systems exist] to model an alternate reality in a way that excites and inspires the imagination.
You immediately veered off into autistic abstract spreadsheet arguments about dump stats, character distinctiveness and player choice/meta. These are all fine but they fail to address the deeper point.

The challenge is not just to achieve spreadsheet balance, but to achieve it without sacrificing the heart and soul of the system. That is, it's not enough for a "player choice" to be meaningful, it has to be meaningful AND congruent with the fantasy. A "strength wizard" would be OK, if that's what the system actually gave you. But in reality a "strength wizard" actually means "damage wizard who happens to be strong". And "damage wizard" is a boring spreadsheet meta build, not an imaginative fantasy build.

>>3850452
>Yep. Heard that argument roughly ten billion times from Sawyerfags who COMPLETELY MISS the relevance of this comment:
>>[RPG systems exist] to model an alternate reality in a way that excites and inspires the imagination.
Yes and there's nothing more exciting and imaginative than when every wizard pump up their Int to 18 and dumps every other stat apart from constitution and some points in dex.

>>3850441
>I'll take that over the shitty DnD stats.
btw not the greatest straw man given that DnD is a really old and crude system designed for use by humans throwing dice.

And even with DnD it's interesting to analyze how the stats are congruent with fantasy. Intelligence, for the most part, doesn't give you any bonuses or scaling on individual spells. No AoE radii, increased damage or any other universal modifiers. Each spell has its own rules though, so you COULD have a spell scale on intelligence. Intelligence only impacts things that make sense for an attribute called "intelligence." Smart wizards can learn more spells, and have a better chance of learning spells. This can make for frustrating gameplay especially in a videogame, but the real meaning of "intelligence" is reflected in the gameplay model.

>>3850453
Why do you refuse to actually consider the point? Just stop deflecting and actually try to understand what I'm saying. You're acting as if the only other fucking possibility in system design is Dungeons and Dragons. I even said "strength wizard" would be a cool concept. The point is that PoE doesn't actually give you that. What PoE gives is too abstract.

>>3850425
>boring
compared to what exactly?
having an 85% chance to learn a spell?
>>3850452
>here is my completely arbitrary criteria I'm not even going to pretend to substantiate
>here are completely arbitrary points why what I'm critiquing doesn't fit the completely arbitrary criteria
OK but are you going to post anything of substance?

>>3850464
>boring
>compared to what exactly?
>having an 85% chance to learn a spell?
samefag here nevermind I saw your post here >>3850459 LMAO you really gonna argue D&D does it better
>the real meaning of "intelligence" is reflected in the gameplay model.
just because you lack any imagination and can't see how being more clever could have helped to siphon magical energy to a greater area/duration doesn't mean that there isn't a reflection of intelligence in PoEs model
it's what I've just wrote

>>3850452
Very good point, it's why autismos are anathema to decent fantasy stories.
>Haplo from Death Gate Cycle Novels
Example of a "strength wizard" that made actual sense with an interesting fantasy aesthetic, survivalist from a death labryinth from birth with magical runes tattooed all over him to protect him from physical danger and enhance his actual strength, which having been brought up in a death pit of doom was no joke to begin with.
>"Strength Wizard" from Sawyer diversity fanfics:
Uhhhhh here are some numbers and it just works because you know? S-Shut up it just works.

>>3847960 (OP)
Soier will purposefully include worlds where sexual promiscuity is common but bar the player from engaging in these activities. Dude should pick a lane and not focus on sexuality or just let the player have sexual encounters with his npc’s and companions. Instead he chooses this really weird middle ground where you’re expected to care about and support a lifestyle that’s impossible to engage with in game.

>>3850464
It's not arbitrary. I've posted all the substance necessary to start a discussion. Your mind is just closed off to it.
>>3850465
>you really gonna argue D&D does it better
I argued it does on one narrow dimension, after calling you out for straw-manning a 50-year-old pnp game.
>just because you lack any imagination and can't see how being more clever could have helped to siphon magical energy to a greater area/duration doesn't mean that there isn't a reflection of intelligence in PoEs model
It's not that I lack imagination, it's that I recognize what my brain is actually doing there is called rationalization.
So I take a step back because I'm not just looking for the simplest excuse to justify the system, I'm evaluating it on first principles.

>>3850465
I have another idea.
I have yet to meet a Sawyerfag who can handle a mental exercise like this, but maybe you'll shock me and be the first.

Using only an in-world, plain language description of a character build and without reference to any RPG system or gameplay mechanic, describe your favorite PoE character ever. What's the favorite build you've ever made and why? What inspired you to create him(or her) and why is he awesome?

I fully expect you'll be able to do this. Anyone else is welcome to play along also. PoE isn't completely devoid of soul. All I'm hoping for is to see people think about RPG systems in terms beyond all the god damn boilerplate Sawyerspam about viability and player choice and the problems with D&D.

>>3850462
Why are you retarded and use words which do not apply to the scenario you present?
There is nothing exciting or imaginative when everyone pumps up the exact same stats, completely ignores the same stats and puts the rest in the same stats.
If you play a Wizard, you ALWAYS max Intelligence at 18 or the highest you can. No exceptions.
There is nothing creative, exciting or imaginative with doing the exact same thing as everyone else on the planet every time. There is no experimentation.

If all stats were viable for a Wizard, THAT is when it comes more interesting, creative and "exciting". Because then you actually have to think about where to put your stats, what you want your Wizard to focus on.
This is not up for debate. But if you really want to try, use actual rational arguments next time, because I have no interest in close-minded irrational clowns.

>keeps hammering home he's a biased irrational idiot by using words like 'sawyerfag', parades around on a high horse and mostly insults people

Hint: You are not exhibiting rational, mature and intelligent behavior. You exhibit every tell-tale sign of an idiot that needs to label people so they are 'enemies' and justify his extremist irrational behavior.
If you had any self awareness you would take this comment, step back and reflect. Instead you will deflect, lash out and keep doing the same behavior.

>>3850596
>It's not arbitrary.
Then please do proceed to substantiate your criteria
Why is it important? What are some examples that demonstrate that importance?
What are some prominent RPGs that maybe have trouble fitting to that criteria and why?
And finally why PoE system doesn't fit that criteria?
>>3850596
>I have another idea.
swell, let's tackle the one topic at a time and return to this later

>>3850351
>Better to drive people to get XP from quests and roleplaying.
No, player rewards should not be exclusively handed out by gay fish center pieces. And roleplaying is what happens in your head, it's not picking out how to advance the dialogue window. By "driving players" you remove roleplaying.

>>3850695
>And roleplaying is what happens in your head, it's not picking out how to advance the dialogue window
roleplaying in crpgs is a combination of a lot of things including both of those and many more
and it varies in proportion depending on the player
though I find it hard to believe that picking a dialog choice has genuinely 0 roleplay value for you personally, but maybe you have some sort of a medical condition
>By "driving players" you remove roleplaying.
he didn't say that
he said
>drive people to get XP from quests and roleplaying
this line most certainly has different connotations compared to "driving players", which reads like "railroading players"

>>3850709
Roleplaying is imagining your character in the setting, which is the most important thing. Dialogue is nice if it's believable. But when the game is written by a metrosexual Californian you are better off daydreaming how that NPC would have actually reacted. Games like BG1 and Morrowind don't really have dialogue but are much more highly regarded so it's a common view rather than a medical condition. And PoE1 is definitely railroaded compared to them.

>>3850680
>Why is it important?
It is part of the fundamental motivation to play RPGs. People play RPGs to immerse in a fantasy adventure. You take the role of a character in an alternate reality with distinctive traits, abilities and special powers. The fun comes from interacting with the world as that distinctive character, overcoming obstacles, defeating enemies and accumulating wealth, power and fame.

Therefore, verisimilitude matters to an RPG system. Your mathematical models should have some reasonable correspondence to something real (or fantastical). They should enable a player to realize a vision for a character in the fantasy world.

It's really bizarre to have to spoonfeed all these basic concepts. This guy gets it with no issues: >>3850489

>>3850680
>swell, let's tackle the one topic at a time and return to this later
It's the same topic you dumb fuck. The "other idea" is another way of getting you to understand the point I'm making, not a whole separate topic.

>>3850672
The point shouldn't be so hard to understand. It's one thing to disagree and argue, it's another thing to just not understand the point at all and come out swinging anyway. I suggested a simple thought experiment and not a single one of you pathetic faggots even attempted it.

>>3850958
>Why is it important?
wow, non of that really spoke about
>in a way that excites and inspires the imagination
it's like you figured out you need a new point, because the last one was worded a bit to hasty
well done
I'm gonna allow it

however nothing about your new point is in contradiction with PoEs system
you can still immerse in a fantasy adventure, you can still take the role of a character in an alternate reality with distinctive traits, abilities and special powers
you can still have fun from interacting with the world as that distinctive character, overcoming obstacles, defeating enemies and accumulating wealth, power and fame.

you can still have verisimilitude
and your mathematical models still have some reasonable correspondence to something real (or fantastical)

>It's the same topic
first off all I would ask you to calm your tits and behave yourself
secondly, it's obviously another topic
with which we can continue now that we established that PoE systems don't actually go against anything you require of RPG systmes

He used to be an innocent teetotaler well in his 30s, now he drinks hard liquors, he was corrupted by the world and that's why IWD remains his only gem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3OGOJ501Ww

Turbo cuck who should kill himself

>>3850671
>If all stats were viable
actually sounds like the most boring design direction imaginable, i don't know if any system homogenizing stats like that is remotely relevant, you always have some weird little quirks
for all the attempts to shake off dnd, its shadow looms large which is how you get this logic of IF WIZARDS HAD A WIS BUILD IT WOULD BE BETTER
i fundamentally disagree that an exercise in combinatorics would be superior just because more options would be viable, at that point you might as well go full JRPG and just give out a limited collection of mechanical presets, instead of trying to balance (classes X races X ability scores X feats) into something fun yet destinxt

Sawyer's main problem is designing around "making sure everything is viable" instead of interesting ideas. Whatever good ideas he has, have to tiptoe around his "balance" bullshit.
It is a lot like bad doom modders who design the maps around killing the player instead of interesting stuff.

>>3847960 (OP)
Zeedomorph.
They tend to turn nasty after they consumed the host body.
Given their paraitic nature I tend to question whether the titles they worked on succeed because of, or in spite of their involvment.
Going off of movie directors, I'm beginning to think they had some sort of wrangler in the background that kept them in check, and as the supervision ages out, the "talent" begins to show their very dumb and ugly true selves.

I love Icewind Dale, and HoW, which I now view as products of very heavy supervison and faggotry pruning.

>>3848183
>>3847960 (OP)
>Be dumb commie who makes retarded stories in his games to confirm his own beliefs as they're failing in real life
>say people only dislike them because of his gommunism
Accurate observation for once.
>>3848300
>Dreadfire is good
Here we go again, it's the gay-frog lover. The white knight of Dreadfire. he's back!

>>3851139
>"making sure everything is viable" instead of interesting ideas
Make interesting thing

Nobody uses it because it sucks due to poor balance

Inefficient gameplay is bad for gameplay

Having a bunch of dump stats and crappy ability clutter is bad design

>>3851117
why are cuckservatives so easy to bait

>>3850596
>Using only an in-world, plain language description of a character build and without reference to any RPG system or gameplay mechanic, describe your favorite PoE character ever. What's the favorite build you've ever made and why? What inspired you to create him(or her) and why is he awesome?
In poe2 I made this character that was a heavily armored bleak walker (pally+evo wiz multi), total destruction incarnated into a man. Single handedly wiped out encounters with the sheer size and potency of his fireballs, which the he later was able to transmute into freezing flames that paralyzed his opponents through the use of an ancient powerful grimoire. It was his signature move, freezing fireball into a self immolation frenzy born out of spite for this world. He'd live, just barely, thanks to a combination of healing magic and in-built dead man switches from his equipment.
I fucking loved that character, it was my dream battlemage come true.

>>3851143
>The white knight of Dreadfire. he's back!
if you think there is only one single anon that likes deadfire you are factually delusional

>>3851152
I honestly don't know how people manage to like it, it made me SEETHE. Then I boughted Outer Worlds full price on Windows Store, my reasoning being "maybe it'll be good this time". Well...

>>3851144
>Make interesting thing
>Nobody uses it because it sucks due to poor balance
Zoomi, these are single player games. Nobody cares about balance.
>Having a bunch of dump stats and crappy ability clutter is bad design
Ah yes, replace the stat dumps with other stat dumps and mediocre abilities. Truly a visionary.

>>3851152
even numanuma got positive score on steam

This dude has one insanely dedicated fandrone who's spammed threads about him on this board for years. Sawyer himself is an utterly irrelevant video game designer. What made you this obsessed with him? Are you a fag or woman who finds him charming? What the fuck is it?

>>3851186
>Zoomi, these are single player games. Nobody cares about balance.
I do, if the character I want to roleplay has poor gameplay due to poor balance.

Or if the game gets too easy. Or if enemies get too damage spongy.

You just have some weird idea about what balance means. Let's take a guess:
>NOOOO MY OP EXPLOITS

>>3847960 (OP)
Because balancefaggotry often leads to boring gameplay.

>>3851186
>Zoomi, these are single player games. Nobody cares about balance.
Most retarded statement ever made.

Let's pretend they made an RPG. There are 6 classes. 5 classes are so fucking poorly balanced you can't even kill a basic enemy and die 5 minutes after making your character.
"Balance doesn't matter" man (you) would jump for joy and call this a great thing.

>>3851197
>Because balancefaggotry often leads to boring gameplay.
Wrong, retard. Balance is not turning it into symmetrical design. Even then that premise is false because games like Chess and Go have been played longer and will continue to be played longer by more people than any of your favorite RPGs.
I don't know why retards thinks it's a good idea to parrot other retards. Then again, retards can't think for themselves so I it makes sense.

>>3851189
People have trouble naming even a single "relevant" rpg designer. So much so they desperately mention Emil. That should tell you how delusional people like you are.
The idea that Sawyer is a good rpg designer that knows a lot because he's designed rpgs for a long time is something people like you just can't stomach out of emotional bias.

>>3851209
why are you comparing chess to a video game and then calling others retarded? how retarded are you?

>>3851217
Why did you make another retarded post that proves you know absolutely nothing about game design, game development or games in general. We already knew you were clinically retarded.

>>3851196
>I do, if the character I want to roleplay has poor gameplay due to poor balance.
So let me get this straight? If you have a rogue that can teleport around and summon Cthulhu you will instead play a boring warriors because he does 5% more damage and finishes fights in 25 second sless?
You sawyerfags are absolutely insane.
>Or if the game gets too easy. Or if enemies get too damage spongy.
You mean exactly what happens in pillars?
And there isn't a perfectly balanced game in existence. You can break any game and every single designer( sawyer included) is going to make the enemies tankier to balance that.
>You just have some weird idea about what balance means. Let's take a guess:
>NOOOO MY OP EXPLOITS
I don't even use exploits.
You simply don't understand that by focusing on balance you are removing interesting gameplay.
Everybody plays in the somewhat same way in pillars. Compare to that bg1 and 2.

>>3851205
>5 classes are so fucking poorly balanced you can't even kill a basic enemy and die 5 minutes after making your character.
Name a single crpg video game that has such a extreme case of unbalance? Don't even try, you can't.

>>3851226
>If you have a rogue that can teleport around and summon Cthulhu you will instead play a boring warriors because he does 5% more damage and finishes fights in 25 second sless?
If you'd consider them both as options, it's probably well balanced

>>3851227
You made the statement that balance doesn't matter. So which is it. Yes or no.

>>3851226
>Everybody plays in the somewhat same way in pillars.
What subhuman fucking statement is this. There is way more variation in how players play because of less restrictions to things like weapons and multiclassing is easy and viable for pretty much every option, so players pick whatever they want.

>>3851229
I am not gonna get involved in your binary bullshit.
Not having the ability to finish the first enemy in the game is not balance but basic game design.
Nobody thinks there should never be balance, but your binary bullshit of "can't finish the tutorial" and "everybody does the same thing" is certainly are pathetic examples.

>>3851230
>so players pick whatever they want.
Most player go cipr/monk and don't even bother with other stuff.
Your variations are only in your head and for turbo autists that cum at 1% more damage.

>>3851231
Anon, either balance matters or it doesn't. You said it doesn't. If you now backpedal and say that it does matter, then your prior statement is wrong and you just don't want to openly admit it.

>>3851232
>Most player go cipr/monk and don't even bother with other stuff.
Yes and I'm sure you have factual evidence to support this dumb idea you shat out. The irony of you talking about min-max shit and listing cipher and monk makes you reek of you being someone that googles what the "best class" is, probably follows a build someone else made while not even knowing what the actual good min-max stuff is.
I'm wasting my time responding to you as if you were a rational adult, when you're clearly just an irrational monkey.

>>3851238
Sorry i forgot i am speaking to an autistic retard.
Okey, balance doesn't' matter as long as each class can beat the game. Beating the game doesn't count as balance.

>>3851239
You wrote all of that and yet didn't even refute anything in my post.
You fit pillars design philosophy.

>>3851243
So you admit balance does matter and your prior statement was wrong. Good.
Next, make a better statement then that more accurately fits your views on balance so I can disprove that too. Eventually I might talk sense into you.

>>3851244
>y-you didn't refute anything!
You made a literal asspull statement with zero facts to back it up and think there is anything to refute.

Ok, I'll do the same then. You, your mom and your dad fuck pigs every single day. You can't refute this. Now using your logic this is fact. So run off and fuck your piggies and leave the discussion to people with functioning brains.

>>3851245
>Next, make a better statement then that more accurately fits your views on balance so I can disprove that too
I think autistic retards like yourself lead a pathetic life where they need to translate every single sentence/action into their binary messed up view.
Please refute this with your usual autistic screeching.
>>3851246
>Ok, I'll do the same then. You, your mom and your dad fuck pigs every single day.
Libtards with their crass jokes masquerading as witty. Every single time.
>You can't refute this.
Ironically enough i can.

>>3851186
>Zoomi, these are single player games. Nobody cares about balance.
This is an complete fucking load of horseshit.
Half the time anyone is criticizing fallout 1 and 2, they're talking about how useless charisma is, how useless throwing, traps, first aide, barter, etc are and how stupid it is that agility is a god stat that controls everything during combat.

>>3851290
>Half the time anyone is criticizing fallout 1 and 2, they're talking about how useless charisma is, how useless throwing, traps, first aide, barter, etc are and how stupid it is that agility is a god stat that controls everything during combat.
Nobody complains about these things except you.

>>3851210
You didn't answer the question.

>>3851298
You can do better than that.

>>3851250
>make a dumb statement
>get told why that statement is dumb
>shits the bed and throws a shitfit like a baby because he got told why that statement was dumb
>person asks him to clarify the statement to what he "totally actually meant" in regards to balancing being unimportant
>throws an even bigger autistic shitfit
If you can't even handle basic conversation, please avoid interacting with others. You can't even answer a simple question of what you actually mean.

>>3851303
There was no question to answer, logical fallacy-kun. It's just as relevant as me asking why you shat yourself before making that post.

>>3847960 (OP)
Because he just likes nerfing everything.

>>3851290
>Half the time anyone is criticizing fallout 1 and 2, they're talking about how useless charisma is
Lol, just lol if you don't charismamaxx to properly roleplay a paladin in fallout 1.

>>3851313
>make a dumb statement
You mean make a simple sentence that the autist didn't understand because it wasn't broken down for toddlers.
>get told why that statement is dumb
Autistic screeching is not "get told why that statement is dumb"
>shits the bed and throws a shitfit like a baby because he got told why that statement was dumb
Against with the crass.Can't help yourself, must talk about shit and bestiality it seems.
>person asks him to clarify the statement to what he "totally actually meant" in regards to balancing being unimportant
Autists nitpicks stuff that is understood by anybody normal.
>throws an even bigger autistic shitfit
Again with the shit.
>If you can't even handle basic conversation, please avoid interacting with others. You can't even answer a simple question of what you actually mean.
Look who is talking? The samefah sawyer fan who ruined this thread in the first place.
If you are autistic enough to not understand that extremes are of course not implied in examples than i can't help you understand how fucked you are.
I will recommend less focus on bestiality and shit. That stuff is just weird.

>>3851290
>and how stupid it is that agility is a god stat that controls everything during combat.
This was just a fairly standard thing at the time

>>3851314
You've been creating these threads for several years. You and you alone. This is your obsession. You're either in love with Sawyer, or you are Sawyer.

>>3851250
I forgot retards (i.e. you) think making baseless statements with zero facts to back it up is actually factual and something other people need to refute.
People only play cipher and monk or cipher/monk multiclass? Oh boy, now that totally isn't an asspull and has to be true because YOU said it. Now it's everyone else's job to prove that your asspull is correct. Gigabrain level shit, totally not a subhuman retard.

>>3851319
>autistic shitpost that does nothing but argue and deflect

Bravo. Zero attempts at discussion, even when someone extended an olive branch. Now go ahead and blame me for your inability to engage in basic discussion and clarify what you "totally actually really meant". Upvoted.

>>3851324
>only one person on the internet and i'm not an obsessed schizo that says everyone is my boogeyman and i don't use this as a lame excuse to dismiss everything i don't like that people say

>>3851328
Correct, you and you alone would create these Sawyer threads, in which you defend him endlessly. What a strange obsession.

>>3851250
hey anon that would be a pretty good insult
unfortunately your opponent has made it clear your mom and dad fuck pigs everyday
so I'm going to disregard anything you write
you might be one of those half-pigs oldschool orcs for all that I know

>>3851327
>extended an olive branch
>make a dumb statement
>>shits the bed and throws a shitfit like a baby because he got told why that statement was dumb
>throws an even bigger autistic shitfit
You were saying?

>>3851210
>they desperately mention Emil
>delusional
you're delusional, name last relevant rpg that sawyer designed
shouldn't be a problem because he's so much more relevant than him lol

>>3848090
>>3848141
>>3848161

>>3851505
There is absolutely no way he'd yell at people irl. HR would be on his ass in seconds.

>>3847960 (OP)

Whats the deal you obsessed faggot dicksucker spamming pictures of this literal who on this board? We dont care about your faggot fetish you cum eating nigger, stop posting or better kill yourself you subhuman.

>>3851511
The 90s-00s were a different time. In one of his videos Tim Cain mentioned that the zoomers were shaking because he and Leonard Boyarsky would yell at each other during meetings when they were making The Outer Worlds, but that's just how they communicate, they don't hate each other.

>>3850974
>however nothing about your new point is in contradiction with PoEs system
Nope, not a new point. Same point.
Already articulated the distinction, you missed it.
Linking intelligence to AoE radius and duration is arbitrary. You can "rationalize" the link but it's not intuitive. That is, when a normal, healthy person envisions a character with high intelligence, they think cleverness, knowledge, cunning, ability to understand complex systems and logic. They don't think "boosted AoE radius and effect durations."
Meanwhile you have a trait called "might" which isn't even truly a coherent trait at all. It's a combination of two distinct and very different traits (physical strength and spiritual strength). This means that in PoE, you are not allowed t o envision a person who has physical strength but not spiritual strength, or vice-versa.

>you can still have verisimilitude
You can. It could be a lot better, that's the point. Which is why my original position articulated here >>3850425 is that:
>[The system design in PoE is] mediocre at best.
Note that the position isn't: "PoE has no verisimilitude at all it's totally impossible to be immersed at all"

>with which we can continue now that we established that PoE systems don't actually go against anything you require of RPG systmes
Nope. Just made posted two concrete examples here (AGAIN) and until you refute them you can't claim any points. But you can still do the thought experiment if you want, for fun.

>>3851505
>a large chunk of the gaming community is pretty misogynistic/casually racist/generally terrible

He's right

>>3851691
Yes, gamers are chuds. Here’s why that’s a good thing:

>>3851659
>mental gymnastics: the post
>things are only good if i emotionally like it
Impressive someone as mentally challenged as thid managed to goad people into replying to you.

>3851466
See what I mean? There are special needs children claiming Emil is a great designer and writer when every single game he works on is actively worse.
Do not reply to these idiots. They're like those sad kids in school that behave like idiots to get any attention, even if it is just to annoy other and be called idiots. They need help, not replies.

>>3851659
I'll ignore all the "no that's totally what I've meant the first time [despite literally saying something completely different], no I already explained everything in as much detail as possible [not even remotely]" mental gymnastics pointed out by another anon, and try to focus on the [little] substance there is
>[The system design in PoE is] mediocre at best
your entire reasoning is based on the subjective fact that the system is "not intuitive enough" [for you personally]
that's it

well if you are going to die on a hill of PoE systems being "mediocre at best" because you find it hard to grasp you can go ahead and do so
but you will look like a total dumbass all the way through

>>3852350
relevant doesn't mean great
go read a dictionary, you soier-worshipping fuckwad

>3852410
Why are you posting as if anyone will give you the attention you seek when you've proven yourself to be a complete idiot. Go fish for attention elsewhere.
Emil is not even relevant. It's just a name your very ignorant mind is familiar with and think because you know it, it's relevant.
This was out of sheer pity, you won't get another one.

>>3852414
cope&seethe

>>3847960 (OP)
Happy Birthday, Josh!

>>3852408
>>3852347
So the first thing that comes to you when you think of intelligence in rpg's is aoe range?
Your autistic piece of shit is so removed from reality it is not even funny anymore.

>>3852464
You're trying to paint up a scenario that fits your close-minded narrative while shutting off everything else with mental gymnastics. You're the textbook example of a deranged idiot no one should waste time on.
You're trying to say a system where strength makes things easier to hit and wisdom allows you to remember more spells is an amazing, logical and intuitive system while downplaying everything else as bad.

If you wanted people with a brain to respond to you seriously, at least pretend to be a sane rational adult. Or is your goal strictly to desperate fish for replies because you're starved for attention? Regardless, you'd best move on because no one will feed your mentally handicapped mind anymore.

>>3852464
Different poster than either of the two you quoted but yeah, seems pretty intuitive to me.
Higher Intelligence > better understanding of spellcasting/ability usage > more efficient casting > larger area of effect and longer duration
Makes sense to me. And AoE scaling from INT is even better than it first looks; it affects radius and not diameter so the actual area scales quadratically rather than linearly, and the bonus area you get from INT hits foes only even if the spell normally has friendly fire, so it's always a benefit to have a large AoE instead of making it riskier to use because you might catch your party members in it. I think it's a cool way of showing how higher Intelligence doesn't just mean 'better'/stronger casting but having more finesse because a caster can have bigger spells without affecting their allies. Longer effect duration also makes it useful for classes like Fighters who can scale their abilities from it.

That's not to say that this is the only way you could scale things from Intelligence. A system that uses Mana/MP could simulate more efficient casting by giving a cost reduction with higher Intelligence, and a system that made you perform a check every time you went to cast could give you a bonus for having higher Int, but PoE doesn't use either of those mechanics.

>>3852482
NTA but you’re doing the thing where when you can’t defend something on its own merits, you instead attack the other person.
>strength makes things easier to hit
Perfectly logical. Applying more force to a melee weapon can penetrate armor, or a thick hide, that a blow with less force would’ve glanced off of.
>wisdom allows you to remember more spells
Wisdom allows a priest to more effectively pray for boons from his god.

>>3852487
>it affects radius and not diameter so the actual area scales quadratically rather than linearly
U wot m8

>>3852489
>NTA but you’re doing the thing where when you can’t defend something on its own merits, you instead attack the other person.
>nta
Uh huh.
If you are indeed "not that anon" then you haven't read the thread, which means you are not worth engaging with either because you're clearly a deranged idiot too.
Try better bait next time.

>>3852490
The modifier says "Area of Effect +(modifier)%" but what it actually does is increase the radius for AoE effects by that percentage, so the actual increase in the bonus area scales much better than if it were just increasing the AoE size by the percentage listed.

>>3852489
Your buttbuddy you're defending is claiming the PoE attributes are bad and the DnD ones are amazing based entirely on his own personal narrow idea of Intelligence increasing aoe size, while ignoring everything else it does an impacts, means it's a bad system. Throughout the thread he has committed at least 10 different logical fallacies multiple times while exhibiting extremely close-minded and biased behavior. Maybe you should direct your attention more towards the one you're sucking off.

>>3849146
NTA but the only problem I can see with that is that the world context is established after you already make your character. I know that's for pacing reasons, but someone who just bought the game and has never seen it before save for the screenshots on the back of the box doesn't know the contexts that >>3849070 said. If the player wants to make an investment they know going in that they won't be able to capitalize on until further down the road, they should totally be able to.
Personally I think a very actually roleplay-based game like Fallout benefits a lot from pointed-but-not-very-useful skills. Throwing isn't used terribly much and gambling is completley pointless, for example. Yes they were also done away with with 3 but my point is that if you want to formulate your character around stupid shit and have fun with it, you should be able to (but the game should also show you the world first so you can infer it's stupid shit).

But also Fallout 1 and 2 are far less complex games than New Vegas where the heart of the game is concerned, the world. Fuck, 1 is almost on the same level that 3 is. There's no shortage of stupid silly shit you do with New Vegas that you couldn't possibly do with the limitations that the old games were under (and of course they were in a completely different format), so naturally their equivalent is through the gamey-RPG side of it.

>>3852491
I accept your concession.
>>3852494
I understand your point about derivative of area with respect to radius, but you said it affects radius and not diameter, so that area scales non-linearly. This implies that you meant that if it had affected diameter, and radius, then area would have scaled linearly.
I assume that you just made a typo, but I found it amusing.

>>3852495
>Throughout the thread he has committed at least 10 different logical fallacies multiple times while exhibiting extremely close-minded and biased behavior.
>entire post is just ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments
Pottery.

>>3852496
I’m the second anon you quoted. Throwing is a far better example of a trap skill than big guns. Though if someone tagged gambling, it does what it says on the tin, I’d say they get their moneys worth.

>>3852497
Ah, I see what you mean now. I could've been clearer, but I went back and rewrote that part of the post halfway through. I meant both that it affects radius instead of being a direct modifier to area and that it specifically increases the radius instead of the diameter (and thus scales more efficiently than a player might think).

>>3852497
Holy fucking top kek, the samefag is so stupid he outed himself.

>>3852505
Don't engage with him unless you want to waste 2 hours of your life talking to someone that has already made up his mind, will samefag while pretending to be someone else and call you stupid the moment you disagree with him to point out something he's wrong about.

>>3852489
>"nta"
>proceeds to instantly drop his facade
care to explain why you pretended to be someone else that sided with yourself?

>>3852507
>>3852508
>>3852509
Samefag.

>>3852505
My favorite example of retarded math in PoE is that knife that applies a damage over time. What they meant to do was (damage/sec) * duration, so that high INT made it last longer and do more total damage, but what they actually did was (damage / duration), such that players would dump INT to make it dump its entire flat damage in as short of a time as possible.
Truly, elegant systems design from ol’ rope kid.

>>3852515
That's just a poor item implementation, it hasn't really got anything to do with system design.

>>3852464
>>3852489
>Perfectly logical.
yes, perfectly logical if AC was a feature of armor being tougher to punch through and not also ability to avoid blows altogether
>a wise man is a man that can haggle more boons from the Gods
I don't think anybody said ever
and why does intelligence affect spell learning chance and not time to learn a spell?

and look we aren't even touching upon such "intuitive" things as
>HP
supposedly "not just meat points" but ability to avoid damage but then isn't that what dex based AC does? and most importantly mechanically HP actually act as just "meat point"
>class limitations
yeah, sure yada-yada magic attunement is tempered by armor and the thief can't hear those lock-clicks in a helm, but... how intuitive is it that they can't wear restricted equipment while not doing those things?

it's all just gaming abstractions with almost no basis in reality
trying to rule out that one abstraction system is OBJECTIVELY better just because it is "intuitive" to you since that's the type of game you know just outs you as a low-to-mid IQ retard who will never have anything of value to say

>>3852515
>bug
>AHA! this proves the rpg-system is bad!
jesus christ
are you really a just a sub 90 IQ retard or what?
do you think it's funny to impersonate a mentally challenged person?

>>3851538
We have some shitposting newfag who will, every few months, make a Sawyer thread, post some obnoxiously-close selfie of the guy, and then spend HUNDREDS of posts defending him from personal attacks and any form of critique on the internet. Go check the archives. It's fucking weird. There's a lot of senseless shitposting on these smaller boards.

>>3852537
>bug
If it were a bug, it would’ve been patched. It was just designed by idiots who didn’t consider the implications.

>>3852548
>hey guys I'm retarded
well stfu you retard
also aqckhually
it was a tooltip bug, not a damage calculation bug, i.e. the damage was applied as expected but the tooltip suggested that INT will decrease DOT effect by stretching a fixed damage over longer time periods
and yes it was identified as a bug by the devs

>>3852567
>it was a tooltip bug, not a damage calculation bug, i.e. the damage was applied as expected but the tooltip suggested that INT will decrease DOT effect by stretching a fixed damage over longer time periods
>and yes it was identified as a bug by the devs
Bullshit. Source your claims. you won't.
I just tested it myself, and invite anyone else curious to try it themselves as well. Game version 3.7.0.1318. Same level 1 character with no talents or abilities, identical stats and starting equipment, only altering INT, using drawn in spring. Struck enemy a single time, stopped attacking, observed damage ticks.
>20 INT
Tooltip 5.9 damage over 7.5 sec. 0.79 dam/sec per tooltip, damage ticks of 2 + 2 + 1 = 5.
Tooltip 8.8 over 11.3. 0.78 dam/sec, ticks of 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 8.
Tooltip 7.3 over 11.3. 0.65 dam/sec, ticks of 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 7.
Tooltip 5.1 over 3.8. 1.34 dam/sec, tick of 4 = 4.
Tooltip 7.1 over 7.5, 0.95 dam/sec, ticks of 3 + 3 + 1 = 7.
>3 INT
Tooltip 5.3 over 3.3 sec. 1.61 dam/sec, ticks of 5 + 0 = 5.
Tooltip 4.6 over 1.6, 2.88 dam/sec, tick of 5 = 5.
Tooltip 6.9 over 3.3, 2.09 dam/sec, ticks of 6 + 1 = 7.
Tooltip 3.8 over 1.6, 2.38 dam/sec, tick of 4 = 4.
Tooltip 5.9 over 3.3. 1.79 dam/sec, ticks of 5 + 0 = 5.

>>3847960 (OP)
Because he shoots his mouth off with hot take opinions without actually thinking about it, for one thing. For another, his actual design decisions are very very frequently extremely fucking stupid in obvious ways, even though some of his decisions turn out well.

For example. Like when he candidly remarked during Pillars Of Eternity's development that he hated spellcasters as a concept and believed they shouldn't actually exist as thing in fantasy or gaming.

Or for another example, the naval combat system in Pillars Of Eternity 2: Deadfire... Yes, the game about being a pirate. In a ship. On an ocean. The game with the naval combat system so breathtakingly bad that they had to patch in an option in the settings menu to give players the option to disable it completely.

Or for another example, the restructuring of core stats for characters so that each stat was relevant to any character, no matter their class. Which was his reaction against one of the most cancerous design failures of D&D (then 3.5e) where players had been complaining for decades that some stats could just be dumped without consequence while some classes could arrange their build to be able to ignore all stats except for the single one that they poured all their resources into pumping in order to be amazing at everything with no downside.

>>3852646
It's funny you talk about someone not knowing what they're talking about when you do exactly that. But that's what ignorant people like you do. He has a Deadfire post mortem that has been posted on this board many times that should illuminate your ignorance so you're not saying dumb shit. But clearly you prefer to say dumb shit so you won't educate yourself by watching it.

>>3852512
Care to explain why you pretended to be someone else that sided with yourself?

>>3852651
I've seen it. And if you had, you wouldn't have posted that comment. So maybe don't shoot your mouth off about shit you don't understand. Or exercise basic reading comprehension before you do. Bare minimum.

>>3852654
You didn't because if you had you'd at least know that he hated ship combat and wanted it cut, but his boss demanded it in the game. Deadfire also isn't a game about being a pirate.

>>3852495
>Throughout the thread he has committed at least 10 different logical fallacies multiple times while exhibiting extremely close-minded and biased behavior
Not on anything substantial. Throwing the occasional insult out of frustration with excessively incompetent or bad faith arguments isn't part of the core argument.
I even spoon-fed the first principles.
You want me to break down the mistakes here: >>3852408?
>despite literally saying something completely different
I have made the same point consistently. Show me where you think I said two different things and I'll explain why you're mistaken.
>your entire reasoning is based on the subjective fact that the system is "not intuitive enough" [for you personally]
I am asserting that intuition is not just "for me personally" but something commonly shared. It is a perfectly reasonable assertion and I should not have to spoonfeed further. You should either accept my point in good faith and find a real counter-argument, or at the very least dispute the boundaries of such shared intuition or its nature. Instead you skip past and just try to claim my perspective is somehow totally weird or unique and therefore everything I say should be dismissed. That's lazy, dishonest argumentation, yet you're the one whining about fallacies.
>well if you are going to die on a hill of PoE systems being "mediocre at best" because you find it hard to grasp
Again, this is either a straight lie or you actually believe this and are therefore too stupid to even debate this topic at all.

btw
>>3852495
>claiming the PoE attributes are bad and the DnD ones are amazing based entirely on his own personal narrow idea of Intelligence increasing aoe size
Complete failure.
I never said all PoE attributes are bad, I called the system mediocre.
And I never said D&D stats are amazing in fact I repeatedly implied that D&D sets a very low bar. PoE claiming to have better stats than D&D is worthless.

And for the record, I can make a similar argument about at least one of the D&D stats as I do to PoE. In D&D, Dexterity is a weird combination stat that sometimes means agility instead of dexterity. D&D really has no stat to model someone who is athletically agile but not especially dextrous. It just kind of combines the two.

Of course, you have to draw the line somewhere. It's easy to go crazy trying to model every possible human attribute and either wind up with a pointlessly complex mess, or something that is far more simulation than RPG. But you can at least avoid doing weird things like combining physical and spiritual strength into one abstract idea.

>>3852487
>Different poster than either of the two you quoted but yeah, seems pretty intuitive to me.
>Higher Intelligence > better understanding of spellcasting/ability usage > more efficient casting > larger area of effect and longer duration
This is true, and thank you for at least trying to make a good faith argument.
It's possible to see how int COULD be linked to AoE and duration. But you could link many other traits to AoE and duration. Why just int? (Answer: for class balance, to make the stat useful for every class; NOT because it's a good way to reflect intelligence in the world).

>>3852535
>a wise man is a man that can haggle more boons from the Gods
>I don't think anybody said ever
Fool.
>The Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream by night, and the Lord said to him, “Make a particular request for yourself.”
>Solomon said, “You have shown great mercy to Your servant David my father, because he walked before You in truth, and with You in righteousness and uprightness of heart. You have continued this great kindness for him, and gave him a son to sit on his throne, as I do today.
>Now, O Lord my God, You made Your servant king in place of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in.
>Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You chose, a great people, who will not be numbered.
>Therefore give Your servant a heart to hear and judge Your people in righteousness, and to discern between good and evil. For who can judge this great people of Yours?”

>The Lord was pleased that Solomon asked this.
>So the Lord said to him, “Because you asked for this, and have not asked for long life for yourself; nor have you asked for riches, nor for the life of your enemies, but asked understanding for yourself, to understand judgment—
>behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you an understanding and wise heart, so there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall anyone like you arise after you.
>I also gave you what you did not ask—both riches and honor—so there has been no man like you among kings.
>If you walk in My ways, and keep My statutes and commandments, as your father David did, then I will multiply your days.”

>>3851505
He's right about the armour though (but does he apply the same standard of realism and historical accuracy to women being in battle in the first place?)
>>3851691
Except about the 'terrible' part.

>>3852750
Honestly, the Bible absolutely fucking REEKS of the Middle East. Literally Arabian fucking Nights slop. I guess we have to forgive how fucking cliché it sounds because it's an old book of fairy tales, so it kind of predates most fantasy books.

But it doesn't predate all of them. I mean, seriously, come on, those tropes were cliché when it was written because it plagiarized literally EVERYTHING from the myths and religions of neighboring cultures. Some of which, like Egypt, literally had archeologists studying their ancient fairy tales in discovered ruins. Ruins which were already thousands of years old at that time. And that time was thousands of years ago from today. We look back and see how antiquated and primitive the Bible is, and the myths and religions the Bible stole everything from were as ancient compared to the Bible as the Bible is to us now.

Nat-Cs would absolutely flip their tits if they discovered the reason for the "trinity" dogma is LITERALLY because "the" god of the Bible was originally three completely different characters. It's like if they merged Zeus (an angry, vindictive god of storms) with Athena (his daughter) and Hypnos (a god-spirit said to visit mortals to bring rapturous reveries and dreams). Yahweh, Jehovah and Elohim were three completely separate deities of that region in that time period.

You can't unsee it. The Bible is low-tier AoOO fanfic slop.

>>3852750
>here is some judaism-rooted folklore
kek shalom
believe it or not I was originally gonna ask if you practice judaism and if you think that sinful chicken sacrifice thing is a wise idea

>>3852606
I retested this with https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Drawn_in_Spring
and yes, it seems to work as you have detailed
well guess I'm wrong on this one
[I still don't agree that "it works this way in current year^w version so it's intended", obviously not all the bugs can be addressed due to budgeting and resources restrains]
my initial reply was based on an old DoT ability bug discussion on the obsidian forum

>>3852845
>and yes, it seems to work as you have detailed
>well guess I'm wrong on this one
Respect, I was absolutely certain you wouldn't reply, and would just slink away as is generally the case on this board.
>[I still don't agree that "it works this way in current year^w version so it's intended", obviously not all the bugs can be addressed due to budgeting and resources restrains]
I think it was an oversight resulting from not thinking through the underlying math, and how it interacts with their chosen attribute system. Not intended (or at least, not what they should have intended, had they thought it through), but not quite a bug, either.

>>3852776
>Nat-Cs would absolutely flip their tits if they discovered the reason for the "trinity" dogma
The Holy Trinity comes from infusing Platonic philosophy, targeted at the Greek converts who made up much of the early Church.
>>3852844
>believe it or not I was originally gonna ask if you practice judaism and if you think that sinful chicken sacrifice thing is a wise idea
I grew up an atheist, and converted to Orthodox Christianity when I got married. No, the chicken bullshit is evil. Their entire culture is based around attempting to trick God, because they rejected God and turned to Satan. Every Christian should read the OT front to back, it's just hundreds of years of 90% of them being shitlords, disobeying God, worshipping demons and performing child sacrifices, and then murdering the Prophets who tell them to stop being wicked. Solomon himself adopted demon worship from marrying a foreign wife, and God punished him by splitting apart his kingdom after his death.

I just thought everyone knew the "Solomon prayed for wisdom" meme. The story with the baby, etc.

>>3852776
>Yahweh, Jehovah and Elohim were three completely separate deities of that region in that time period.
What a fucking midwit pseud. Nobody fucking thinks Yahweh and Jehovah were two different gods, it's just natural pronunciation drift over the century. Elohim literally means gods (see: Exodus 12:12), later was taken to refer to Yahweh kind of like the English royal "we".
There was El Elyon (in Deuteronomy 32:8 he gives nations of the world to his sons, among them Israel to Yahweh), but 1: he was a different god who was merged with his son and their tutelary storm war god (Yahweh was more like Thor than Zeus), but it happened 500 fucking years before Christ and 2: no Jew gave a shit that they merged in the meantime. Afterwards, extremely popular Neoplatonic mysticism held that Monad begets Logos begets Psyche, and Christians (core of earliest converts of whom were gentiles who were into Judaism) calqued it onto their belief system, like >>3852861 mentioned.

>>3852768
In Eora strength is determined by your soul which is why women are on equal footing with men. It's not Earth, they're not limited by our biology.

>>3852855
>In Eora strength is determined by your soul
do you have a quote on that? because I don't like it
And no, I don't have an issue with muscle chads siphoning more raw magical energy compared to puny skinny bookworms
>>3852768
>historical accuracy to women being in battle in the first place?
I don't know because he's only ever done 1 game set in historical Earth and it doesn't have any battles in it
all other games were fantasy and need no historical accuracy
[boob-plate discussion is actually not about historical accuracy even if arguments may be based on historical evidence as an indication of what might be plausible]

>>3852926
Look at the description of Might. You can't have physical strength without spiritual strength. There's nothing in the rules preventing women from getting top scores.

>>3853067
It's probably better named "force" or something like that. "Power" or "Effort" or something.

He's obsessed with reinventing the wheel on stats

he's terrified of romance because nobody at his autistic company can understand human connection

"why would you want to romance a character lol go play romance games, our 80h rpg is all about stats and how agility is actually good for spellcasting and lore stats"

>>3853194
>He's obsessed with reinventing the wheel on stats
Not really, he just thinks the D&D stats are bad, especially for videosgames. Which is completely true. Too many (bad) designers defauly to D&D stuff which is riddled with issues and was never intended for videogames.
>he's terrified of romance because nobody at his autistic company can understand human connection
Ironic, it's people that eat up all the bad romances on the market that suffer from poor human connection. He doesn't like most romances in games since they're all shallow and force most companions to be written a certain way. If Joshua Graham was a romanceable companion he would be forced to be rewritten and become a much shallower character.

You might not agree on his execution, but his points are absolutely valid and correct.

>>3853231
>Too many (bad) designers defauly to D&D stuf
WTF are talking about, theres only few mainline D&D rpgs and literally all other RPGs use their homebrew systems, most of which suck too

>>3853236
nta but you seem to be from a younger generation

>>3853231
>D&D stats are bad, especially for videogames. Which is completely true.
The D&D attribute debate is just nitpicking when it only has three slight flaws, charisma being a combination attribute, wisdom being some sort of experience when XP already exists in a different function, and perception missing. But it still mostly supports all character types if you bend it a bit. The one with severe issues is actually PoE, which doesn't even have charisma or strength types. This is a strong regression from D&D.
Attributes have already been perfected by Arcanum by the way, which splits 'might' into str and int, con into con and willpower, dex into dex and perception and cha into beauty and charisma. It is simply complete.

>>3853272
I will never waste time arguing with someone that thinks D&D stats for videogames is good design. Even more so someone that thinks Arcanum is the gold standard. A lost cause. I save my time for sensible people.

>>3853275
you have plenty of time seeing as you do nothing but fellate sawyer on a dead board all day

>>3853272
boy oh boy do you not have a single clue about the subject matter

>>3853280
oh man you are one ignorant sonofabitch

>>3853284
that might have worked before you outed yourself as an absolutely retarded sub 95 ICQ consumer-normie neet nigger-faggot NPC in >>3853272
now all I see in your posts is a monkey having a tantrum

>>3853308
Who's the one throwing a tantrum here? You must be sub 80 IQ to not realize this.

>>3853308
>ICQ
Uh oh!

>>3853317
good little money!
>>3853318
>he doesn't know

>>3853326
Perhaps you were too young to understand that reference.

>>3853326
Whatever you colossal faggot. The fact is that D&D games have genius level people modding them, while PoE has a bunch of worthless pseuds like you circling around a pile of shit. And stop making these gay threads already.

>>3853330
>UHHH OHHHH BOOGA BOGA UHHHH
kek funny monkey
>>3853327
>too young to understand that reference
how does that make any sense? that's the reference I specifically made
on purpose

>>3853231
>Not really, he just thinks the D&D stats are bad, especially for videosgames.
Right, though this is part of the problem I think and why his system is somewhat disappointing. It's too much a reaction to D&D and its problems (and with 3e, its excesses) and not enough a well-designed system from solid first principles. It also seems to largely ignore ideas and lessons from various other videogame RPGs that had evolved away from D&D stats a decade earlier.
>You might not agree on his execution, but his points are absolutely valid and correct.
On romances I 100% agree.

>>3853272
The D&D stat list specifically isn't awful (although I'd include Dex as a combination attribute). The issue is the mechanics of the stats and how they affect (or don't affect) characters. There's a range of traditional D&D stat values that simply do nothing at all. For example, in all but rare cases it's entirely up to the player to roleplay or for the DM to make a subjective call on the difference between a 7 CON and a 14 CON.

>>3853231
>You might not agree on his execution, but his points are absolutely valid and correct.
It's the classic intermediate skill problem: good at identifying problems, bad at making solutions. I will give props for effort but you'd expect more from an industry veteran.

>>3847960 (OP)
the man can design but he shouldn't be put in charge of picking the team nor have any say in the writing. he's a typical pushover white dude in the team who just goes along with any stupid suggestions from cucks, women, and nons. pentiment is his best game precisely because the team was small and tight-knit.

>>3852535
>yes, perfectly logical if AC was a feature of armor being tougher to punch through and not also ability to avoid blows altogether
That makes sense actually. Late plate armor makes you pretty much immune to most damage, and realistically you'd only get hurt when hit in less armored weak spots.
Reducing the hit chance is the best abstraction so far, because if the hit went through, it went through.
If you really want to be autistic you can rename it "chance to damage" instead and have a visual representation of blows glancing off the armor but it's the same shit.

>>3848315
>One glaring issue Pillars games have is the overblown purple prose at a time where players seek out cinematic experiences and zone out of reading
Don't put it on 2018 player tendencies, purple prose is shit writing by definition. In no year it would have been received well.

>>3856885
No it doesn't make sense. Even damage reduction would make more sense. You're not dodging or avoiding damage.
If I hit you with a stick charged with electricity the AC system could result in the hit missing, when if you hit the physical damage from the stick would not damage the armor, but the electricity would bypass it.

AC is a shit system, like many things in D&D.

>>3856911
Ok anon, why do you assume fantasy armor would be ineffective against fantasy weapons?
If every schmuck has electricity sticks, you'd assume fantasy smiths would take that into account when making expensive plate armor designed to keep fancy nobles alive, even if it's not visually represented to our mundane eyes.

>>3856932
>being intentionally retarded to handwave away the point
D&D tards everyone. You're not worth replying to.

>>3856885
>That makes sense actually
Try also making sense of a post before that, retard
the context is that str negates ac from armor and dexterity regardless of the source

>>3856939
AC is an abstraction to facilitate tabletop math, and one born of its time. It’s descended from naval war games. Yes, splitting it into miss change from dodging/glancing blows, and damage reduction/resistance, is more logical and realistic, but you’re also talking about a 50 year old system from when the genre was in its infancy. The abstraction doesn’t really fall apart unless you’re looking at extreme edge cases where someone’s AC literally only comes from armor and no dodge or miss chance, or when someone’s AC literally only comes from dodging with zero armor.

>>3856966
Every nerd applying Physics (TM) to D&D arguments will be eternally btfo by the following logically infalible formula:

Fun > Suspension of Disbelief > Realism

>>3856939
I read it, I think the og anon that was replied to is smoking shrooms since he thinks you can punch through armor.
I was just pointing out that AC is a neat abstraction, even if obtuse and non-intuitive.
Strenght is also a poor name, since it has the biggest impact on thac0.
The rules themselves are neat, the names are very stupid though and the stats are too bloated individually.
Dex should not affect ranged weapons, using a longbow or reloading a crossbow quickly requires a lot of physical strenght.
Strenght shouldn't affect carrying weight, I doubt Arnold Schwarzenegger could carry more Halberds at the same time compared to me.
But AC/THAC0 is fine.
Out of all the problems I have with D&D this is one thing I do like about it.
Good armor is meant to protect you entirely from damage, is meant to be lightweight, comfortable to wear and still allow for a great deal of mobility and everyone should wear as much as they can without impairing their visibility or mobility too much.

>>3857001
AC is one of the worst armor and dodge systems ever made. It dumbs dodge and armor down into one thing when they are entirely separate while the exectution is also extremely flawed and shit gameplay wise.
D&D just has way too much dogshit baggage. That shit can fly in PnP when you can houserule or bend shit, but that only highlights how shit it is.

>>3857001
>Strenght shouldn't affect carrying weight
Stopped reading here

>>3857006
Rogue hands typed this post
>>3857022
How much crap would you carry on your own person to the point where physical strenght becomes an actual factor

>>3857097
So you admit you've never tried to sprint around while fighting for your life with a three pound sword in melee combat.
Have you ever... like... walked to your fridge? Or does your mom bring you the nuggies and dew??

>>3857114
I never had to fight for my life, I live in a white country.
But trust me favela Joe, armor is better everytime.

>>3856969
>Fun > Realism
you are correct
the argument was not to prove that DnD is a shit system
the argument was that DnD breaks down like a 70yo smoker during a marathon if you try to assess it from a realism point of view, yet the concepts it brought to the table don't bother anon at all [simply out of habit, this is what anon grew up with and is familiar with]

>>3857097
>How much crap would you carry on your own person to the point where physical strenght becomes an actual factor
anon I refuse to believe you are for real
try backpacking though, God knows you need to get out from the house from time to time

>>3857001
>I read it
I think you should try again
because shitting on DnD AC was not the point see >>3857446

>>3856969
Binary-brain post.

>>3850163
Sawyer makes immersive rpgs, not tinkertranny slop.

>>3857545
Funny because there was a whole discussion ITT about how Sawyer's system misses the mark on immersion.

>>3857810
There wasn't a discussion, just one autist ranting about it.

>>3857811
Nobody refuted the points, just a lot of gnashing and seething.

>>3847960 (OP)
>Why is this man design philosophy so polarizing
Why the fuck would you even ask that?????? Wtf is even wrong with you????

>>3850163
>it made combat pointless, especially when almost all classes were essentially designed to all have a roughly equal chance of success. It made classes feel generic.
1. Make balanced game
2. Add in purposefully shitty "decoy noob trap" classes (e.g Dog Whisperer)
3. Combat now has a point and classes are less generic

And midwits can feel clever when they figure out that Demon Annihilator class is better than Dog Whisperer*
*(before patch 1.22 adds in Celestial Holocaust Hounds)

>>3857871
there were no points apart from whatever can be reduced to
>nah-ah I don't like it, I don't like it!
without losing any meaning

>>3857921
The absolute majority of RPG enthusiasts didn't like PoE, so the haters don't need to make any special points as they are arguing from the orthodox side. Soier apologists, however, sure need exceptional arguments to defend this objective failure of a series. But as of now, they are failing just as hard in this thread.

>>3857941
>they

>>3857941
>have a very niche irrational opinion on something based entirely on personal bias
>present it as fact
>pretend everyone else also thinks the same
>claims no one refuted it when it's just him mouthing off his personal opinions
get some help before it's too late

>>3857810
Nothing helps my immersion better than having bigger muscles means it's easier to hit something and being pretty makes me a better sorceror.

>>3857945
I have 7 short posts in this thread, schizo. And I'm actually one of the people who bought PoE2. Isn't it crazy? Only 300k bought the game during the initial period and how many of those still ended up hating it like me? Yet you somehow attribute all opposition to me. As always, people should take their own advice.

>>3857949
>couldn't let go of a topic so dredged it up
>plays it off as someone else
>the moment someone calls him out his ruse falls apart and falls over himself to justify himself
>no you see, it's everyone else that's the schizo
you need professional help

>>3857941
>The absolute majority of RPG enthusiasts didn't like PoE
lol picrel
>the haters don't need to make any special points as they are arguing from the orthodox side
lmao what a fucking dimwit

you should really get your head out of your ass

>>3857949
nta but the opposition is due to the simple fact that your posts are simple logical fallacies postulations and in addition are based on a made up premise that would have taken you literal seconds to fact-check
in other more familiar to you words, you talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded

>>3848138
>he believes in objectivity
Lol...
Lmao even. Enjoy your black and white moralistic worldview, you simpleton.

>>3857941
>soier
>using 4chan lingo in 2025
This place has become worse than reddit if it wasn't for their love of puns

>>3857988
The daily steam player peak of any of the PoE games is around a measly 500, a good bit less than even BG1, a 10 hour long game from 1998.
And 500 daily players are probably some thousand people total, enough to account for the reviews. After all, the PoE games have half as many reviews as the Pathfinder ones.

>>3858003
>what if i ignore everything that doesn't align with my beliefs and take something else, twist it with fallacies while disregarding any collerations and pretend it disproves everything
You're mentally ill and I don't mean that as an insult.

>>3857006
I enjoy AC more than any original armor system created in a crpg whether it's Fallout, Divinity: Original Sin (especially 2), or Pillars of Eternity. None of these so-called better designers can make a better system when they're making their own. AC has been tried and true for decades.

>>3858000
>>he believes in objectivity
This, but unironically, you absolute midwit.

Sawyerfag using numbers wrongly to prove his point is peak pottery.
And sawyerfag, plz respond with anything else except "4chan lingo" and "mentally ill/get help"

>>3857921
Not true at all. Reducing the criticism to random subjective opinion is massive cope for your complete inability to respond. If you were a smarter, more knowledgeable person you wouldn't have to respond that way.

>>3857945
>have a very niche irrational opinion on something based entirely on personal bias
It's not niche and it's perfectly rational.
If you weren't an idiot, there could be some discussion about it. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe there's a good argument against my position. But because you're a fucking moron that isn't going to happen.

>>3858003
>why yes I was proven to be a delirious idiot who's views are based on made up premise
>watch me try to divert the discussion into something else entirely
lol

>>3858061
Many such cases

>>3858060
>It's not niche and it's perfectly rational.
There is nothing rational about ignoring everything you don't agree with or proves you wrong. There is nothing rational about using "feel" which is nothing more than undefined personal bias to present arguments which are debunked instantly with the same argument. Like why does strength make it easier to land hits and charisma make you a better sorceror. That doesn't make sense, no matter the level of mental gymnastics you use. Then you're doing the same thing you accuse other games of doing to bend rules so it doesn't make logical sense.

The reality is you have a personal irrational bias and preference. It is ill-defined and riddled with holes. Yet you are unwilling to admit it, even to yourself.
You are so obsessed with this you keep arguing this again and again, even when the conversation moved on from it. Even pretending to be multiple posters because of the complete lack of people agreeing with you.
You're not even here to challenge your ideas to see if they're true or not, or to discuss. You don't even have the mental awareness to realize that if you have to ignore countless things people raise that poke holes in what you're saying, you have to do mental gymnastics, you have to pretend to be multiple posters backing you up... just maybe, you aren't as right as you think.
But if it was this easy to open your eyes, it would've happened long ago. So all of this will fall on deaf ears and I just wasted my time writing up a serious response to you.

>>3858059
>Reducing the criticism to random subjective opinion
that's not what has happened
we probed the criticism and it turns out there isn't anything behind it apart from
>thing I'm familiar with = good design
>thing I'm not familiar with = bad design
that's not "criticism" or an "argument"
if you want to continue please come up with valid ones
any other ad hominem on your part will be treated as concession

>>3858068
>Like why does strength make it easier to land hits and charisma make you a better sorceror. That doesn't make sense
Stopped reading here

>>3858071
>that's not "criticism" or an "argument"
There is a reason familiar things are good. It is the same reason why pillars flopped hard.
Changing shit just because you want to feel special gets you worse results.
>Like why does strength make it easier to land hits
Holy retard

>>3858141
>Changing shit just because you want to feel special gets you worse results.
correct but also irrelevant

>>3858075
>keeps plugging his ears, refuting nothing
>couldn't even refute his cherrypicked quotation

Explain to everyone ITT how Charisma
>personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness
makes someone a better sorceror, allowing them to memorize more spells. We're not talking mechanically, but how does this "rationally" and logically makes sense and be intuitive.
Of course we both know you can't and will continue to deflect, because that's all you've done ITT.

>>3858196
>"cherrypicked quotation"
>leaves out the subsequent sentence, "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"
Grim.
>continue to deflect, because that's all you've done ITT
Quote the posts you think are mine. You won't

>>3858141
He didn't tweak the ability scores just on a whim. He did it specifically to make each number relevant to all characters. Which was a change the D&D engine has needed for DECADES. It's been an extremely thoroughly analyzed and understood design flaw in the original game, and PoE fixed it with resounding success.
Here, I'll put it in more blunt terms: why do all those numbers exist if your character only needs one of them? Just have one number and call it the "do" stat. Or "level".
The reason ability scores exist is to customize your character insofar as a class and level system can tolerate character customization. But if only one number is mechanically relevant, then the entire concept here goes out the window. To restore the desirable feature of customization, all of those numbers need to be made relevant to all characters somehow.
I hope I don't need to explain PoE's mechanics since you're here talking about the game. Making "strength" affect all damage and healing you put out is completely logical and intuitive the very instant you simply rename it so that it's not "strength" anymore.
Let me know if you still need help understanding all this, I know it's a lot.
Josh Sawyer has MANY faults and flaws as a person and as a game designer. But you're gonna have to actually name those correctly.

>>3858354
>He did it specifically to make each number relevant to all characters
A nice idea, in theory.
>PoE fixed it with resounding success.
No, it didn't. Almost everyone still dumps stats when they build PoE characters. If anything, it made the problem of dump stats even worse than DnD, and facilitated it by letting you dump stats even lower. Ever hear of someone in DnD dumping constitution down to 3? Almost never, right, because that would be dumb and dangerous? Min-maxers do it in PoE all the time.
>Making "strength" affect all damage and healing you put out is completely logical and intuitive the very instant you simply rename it so that it's not "strength" anymore.
Whew lad.

>>3858357
>Almost everyone still dumps stats when they build PoE characters
would it kill you to not base your reasoning on made up shit?
even a contrarian like you has to admit you obviously have absolutely no way of knowing this as an accurate data point but we do know it contradict what we know about how the world works [see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion]
>facilitated it by letting you dump stats even lower. Ever hear of someone in DnD dumping constitution down to 3?
first of all PoE stats do not translate into DnD stats 1-to-1, PoE has less of a range and more granularity
PoE attribute of 3 is just 25% below average in performance
DnD strength of 3 is 6 times lower than average in performance [see STR carry weight, AD&D 2e PHB, that's what I had at hand]
>Min-maxers do it in PoE all the time.
yes, a tiny fraction of players who do challenge runs optimize the shit out of the build, once again shitting on the idea that PoE can't be fun as an optimization exercise [because muh balanceman].
They do it though not because there is no meaningful loss but because of the tricks and gimmicks they are going to exploit in mechanics and level design to avoid being hit altogether
in DnD the dump-stat phenomenon exist not because of the tactics the player will employ but because of the attribute system itself provides no meaningful penalties to dumping the stat

>>3858369
cont. (2/2)
everything above is pretty basic shit, not only that but I feel we have this exact discussion yearly
and you still proceed with the same shit
- make up shit you obviously have no way of knowing for a fact
- ignore counter points and proceed to divert the discussion whenever your points have been refuted
- prove to not actually understand how the mechanics of the systems in question actually work
- despite all of that, and contrary to provided evidence and reasoning that you can not refute, continue to shit up threads with your nonsense that you probably picked up in some echo-chamber

in short, plainly speaking and putting it in the most simple terms, you are a very, very stupid person, and since this continues for years now there is not much hope for improvement

>>3858357
>Almost everyone still dumps stats when they build PoE characters. If anything, it made the problem of dump stats even worse than DnD, and facilitated it by letting you dump stats even lower. Ever hear of someone in DnD dumping constitution down to 3? Almost never, right, because that would be dumb and dangerous? Min-maxers do it in PoE all the time.
Different anon, but now you're committing a fallacy because you're assuming that dumping stats in PoE is worse because it lets you make the number lower, even though they're completely different systems with completely different scaling.

Poe schizo makes a bullshit argument, gets called out and just pretends everybody else arguments are lies.
Poe shizo alt appears in the first or second reply and usually uses "get hep or some other similar insult" with the latest being "i am not that annon".
It is nice to see the schizo puts the same amount of thought into his posting as sawyer did into making pillars.

>>3858384
Maybe you should spend more energy countering different anons arguments instead of pulling some 'everyone but me is stupid' fallacy.
If you are so utterly incapable of handling being wrong on the internet, I suggest you stay off it.

>>leaves out the subsequent sentence, "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"
Even if we're pretending that's true for the sake of argument. That is not intuitive or how people interpret it. They interpret it as literal Charisma. Plus, without even realizing it you're trying to apply the same kind logic to things you called out for being shit in PoE with stats like Might.
Then to top it all off how would "strength of personality" translate (in an intuitive and logical manner) lead to being a stronger sorceror that can memorize more spells.

This is of course after you ignored the entire post at >>3858068 because you're close-minded and immature. Instead you prefer to shitpost just calling people idiots because they don't agree with you and dare disprove the fallacies you post.

>>3858384
Calling others schizos when you keep pretending to be different people and blatantly dropped the act every time is textbook schizo behavior. What persona will you call on next? Your mom?

>>3858384
since it's not actually just 2 anons having a fight and you didn't reply to a particular post I have no idea what to tell you since this could apply to both sides of the argument

>>3858384
>>3858456 anon here
>It is nice to see the schizo puts the same amount of thought into his posting as sawyer did into making pillars.
nevermind you are the sawyer-obessed-schizo
well eat some shit schizo, that's not an argument and pretty much admission of both defeat and that you are a stupid MF

>>3858357
Sawyer said that his goal was less about avoiding dump stats and more about making sure that any kind of attribute distribution was viable for any given place. If you want to play a high might and constitution spellcaster go ahead, if you want to play an intelligent and charismatic fighter, go ahead. It's not like D&D crpgs where making those characters just makes the character harder to play with little benefit.

>>3858418
>>3858419
>>3858456
>>3858458
Literally not even waiting until some other anon replies to make it seems less suspicious.
I will repeat myself:
"It is nice to see the schizo puts the same amount of thought into his posting as sawyer did into making pillars."

>>3858461
>It's not like D&D crpgs where making those characters just makes the character harder to play with little benefit.
Why do you think people play dnd rpgs for? If i choose a thief i know i won't be able to do good in combat as other classes, that is not the point.
You and Sawyer missing that is exactly why pillars failed.

>>3858348
>Quote the posts you think are mine.
This kill the schizo.

>>3858479
>two (you)s
yeah well I literally said I'm the same anon
anyway I see no arguments, only seething
I guess I'll accept yours by this point and we are done

>>3858491
>anyway I see no arguments, only seething
>I guess I'll accept yours by this point and we are done
This again:
"Poe schizo makes a bullshit argument, gets called out and just pretends everybody else arguments are lies."

>>3858480
>Why do you think people play dnd rpgs for? If i choose a thief i know i won't be able to do good in combat as other classes, that is not the point.
That's a problem when the core gameplay is mostly oriented around combat which is why the thief turned into the rogue in third edition.

>>3858493
>This again:
>"Poe schizo makes a bullshit argument, gets called out and just pretends everybody else arguments are lies."
Feel free to provide examples of that happening, ideally before you posted it the first time.

>>3858480
>If i choose a thief i know i won't be able to do good in combat as other classes, that is not the point.
Another deflection, because PoE still has clearly differentiated classes. But okay.

>Why do you think people play dnd rpgs for?
What if I want to play an intelligent and charismatic fighter without having to sacrifice the efficacy of my character? Why should I have to choose between the mechanical effectiveness of my character and being able to roleplay a character concept I enjoy? What's wrong with a system that allows me to do both?

>still responding to the mentally handicapped toddler praising dnd attributes as a flawless logical and rational system when they only thing they've done for over half the thread is to call others schizos and ignore everything that proves him wrong, not even providing counter arguments

You're wasting your time. People like him will keep this up forever. Just look at the most recent replies for a good while now. It's just namecalling and shitposting.
He's only here to get the last word in so he can mentally file it away as a win because he is too mentally immature to challenge his ideas or accept he's wrong.

He's a sad little manchild that craves attention. Deny him that and he will go away.

>>3858504
>What if I want to play an intelligent and charismatic fighter without having to sacrifice the efficacy of my character?
Then you don't want to roleplay or play rpg games? This is core to the experience.
You are ROLE PLAYING, if everything can do everything then everything is the same.

>>3858516
>It's just namecalling and shitposting.
>He's a sad little manchild that craves attention

>>3858418
>This is of course after you ignored the entire post at3858068 because you're close-minded and immature.
I haven't even read your responses yet. The guy you quoted here:3858384 is not me (>>3858068)
I don't spend my entire life on this board FFS it's barely been 24 hours.

>>3858068
>Like why does strength make it easier to land hits and charisma make you a better sorceror.
What is your actual argument here? Are you straw-manning D&D again for no reason? See:3852744 which was never answered. Are you equivocating about PoE stats? I can't tell. You're not actually making an argument. So I can't really respond except to ramble on in a digression about game design philosophy related to strength, charisma and magic; which I'm happy to do but not sure how that would actually help you understand the criticism of PoE (because the answer starts with "it depends").

Another point that went unanswered:3852748
A simple request to point out where I made a contradiction goes ignored:3852735
I also made an semi-related comment here nobody answered:3856531

>>3858071
>we probed the criticism and it turns out there isn't anything behind it apart from
Completely wrong. You don't even understand the argument well enough to paraphrase it accurately, much less refute it. You misrepresent the point and then engage in name-calling, fallacious appeals (>>3852408,3852482, etc) and a pointless digression into the value of D&D's AC stat, which is well-addressed by this anon here:>>3856966

And once again you demonstrate complete failure to grasp the point with this hysterical over-simplification(>>3852535):
>it's all just gaming abstractions with almost no basis in reality
>trying to rule out that one abstraction system is OBJECTIVELY better just because it is "intuitive"
(note that you're weren't even responding to me by this point, I was off spending time with my family. You were ranting at somebody else who had taken up the debate.)

>>3858569
note: numerous links to other posts were disabled because the filter kept thinking it was spam

>>3858569
lol u mad

>>3858569
anon, please learn to formalize and communicate your thoughts
I'm one of the anons you are addressing and I'm not going through the effort of untangling your thoughts
seriously it reads like it's your attempt to discourage anons to reply to you so you can have the last word
I mean take a good look at that post, can you honestly say it's worth reading?

just make a bullet-point list of key ideas or something

>>3856911
>>3856936
>AC is a shit system, like many things in D&D.
In a tabletop setting, turns proceed slowly, with each player verbally indicating an action and rolling dice to determine an outcome. Per-turn stakes are designed to be high, so that the consequences of each turn will change the course of the battle and force players to respond with tactical changes. In this respect, AC serves its purpose. It's not intended to model realistic physics, it's a simple abstraction for defense suitable for influencing these outcomes. Immersion comes from roleplaying the responses to the combat events.

>>3858621
>In a tabletop setting
plenty of ttrpgs do DR armor, though or even armor rolls
>so that the consequences of each turn will change the course of the battle and force players to respond with tactical changes
that's not relevant to D&D though lol
don't get me wrong I think all editions of D&D are "good enough" of a ttrpg system
I play D&D from time to time, it's just that D&D as a system fails to provide
>consequences of each turn will change the course of the battle and force players to respond with tactical changes
and that's a fucking fact

but that was just nitpicking I agree with the main point
>AC serves its purpose. It's not intended to model realistic physics
that was the point of the initial "AC in DnD" argument -- games poe-hating-anon loves are fool of abstractions that are arguably breaking verisimilitude, but they work well enough as a gaming abstraction
and gameplay > "realism" [which no RPG games provides even, like zero (0), that's what simulations are for, and if you don't understand the difference... I can actually explain]
t. nta

>>3858569
>makes a literal nothingburger post that adresses nothing and just deflects
Let me bring you up to speed/remind you what this is actually about and what you/the retard has been arguing about for most of the thread.

The "conversation" started by one schizo retard (you?) saying the PoE attribute system is bad and the D&D system is good because the attributes and their effects doesn't make rational, logical and intuitive sense in PoE while they do in D&D.
This poster ignored all mechanical, balance, etc. issues in the D&D system, only caring about what he personally felt was "correct".
The exact same arguments used against the PoE, posters turned against him. Like it doesn't make sense that you being able to bench press more weights doesn't make you better at hitting fast moving targets or that charisma makes you a better sorceror that can memorize more spells.
On top of this, the schizo tard/you kept ignoring almost every single argument that poked hole in his own, instead shifting more and more to just insult people and deflect. To plug their ears.
All the while the shizo kept pretending to be different posters that agreed with him, while dropping the act instantly every single time because he's dumb and bad at pretending to be different posters. Ironically, he then started accusing others of being the same posters even when this was kept proven false.

Try reading the thread next time/get better memory. Even if you aren't the same idiot that has shat up this entire thread, you're still an idiot since you dipped your nose into a "conversation" you don't understand because you didn't read the thread or even ask what it was about.

>>3858949
>The "conversation" started by one schizo retard (you?) saying the PoE attribute system is bad and the D&D system is good because the attributes and their effects doesn't make rational, logical and intuitive sense in PoE while they do in D&D.
Okey?
>his poster ignored all mechanical, balance, etc. issues in the D&D system
Here we go again.
Listen here schizo, nobody cares about sawyer mastubration about numbers/balance/mechanical complexity.
It feels good works because it is not based on your inability to understand why people play rpgs.
How many times are you and sawyer not gonna get it?
>All the while the shizo kept pretending to be different posters
The literal post above you is you samefagging.
You always follow the same stupid method of using the first reply to samefag "counter" points while the second reply is always name-calling.
Fuckign retard.

It's all so tiresome..

perhaps anonymity was a mistake

>>3858955
Oh so you were that same retard? Nevermind then, you outed yourself again schizo while disregarding literally everything in favor of deflection.

Get a trip so people can filter you. In case you didn't get it, no one in this entire thread agrees with you and just thinks you're deranged. So do as all a favor and get that trip.
What you want is an echo chamber. 4chan is not it.

>>3858960
>What you want is an echo chamber.
Gee i wonder will you use the appeal to authority to try to silence me?
>In case you didn't get it, no one in this entire thread agrees with you and just thinks you're deranged
Like clockwork.

>>3858962
>appeal to authority
Oh, you mean literally what you did multiple times ITT? When you repeatedly pulled shit from your ass about multiple topics from min/max in PoE to everyone totally thinks every single part about the attribute system in D&D is intuitive and makes sense and PoE is unintuitive and so on?
kek, the level of delusion.

You even conveniently ignore the thinks that disprove you that you can't counter while parading around on your high horse. Like how about explaining how it's intuitive and logical for having high Strength in D&D means you have higher chance to hit? Or how high Charisma makes you a better Sorceror with more spell memorization? You keep avoiding to answer that in your perfectly intuitive and logical system. Like you will do again now.

>>3858957
Removing thread IP counters was a good thing btw

>>3858955
>It feels good works because it is not based on your inability to understand why people play rpgs.
I'm pretty sure people play RPGs for different reasons anon
Why the TTRPG scene alone is full of different genres and playstyles and often a player from one camp will just refuse to play in the style of another camp
I'm pretty sure that your most pressing problem is failure to understand the one simple truth of life
that different people like different things
>Listen here schizo, nobody cares about sawyer mastubration about numbers/balance/mechanical complexity.
there are players that actually do care about that, I do
>The literal post above you is you samefagging.
Nah, that was me not him, actually a that was a bit of a tipsy-drunk me, so we might even count it as a separate poster :^)

>>3858544
Try reading my post again, a bit slower this time.

>>3858966
>Oh, you mean literally what you did multiple times ITT?
So you don't even know what appeal to authority even is? There Is a difference between " here is my opinion about stuff" and " nobody agrees with you, you should stop posting"
>You even conveniently ignore the thinks that disprove you that you can't counter while parading around on your high horse.
You seem to be confusing me with somebody else? I am not the one you were debating about dnd stuff, i am just here to call your schizo bullshit when i see it. The dnd debate guy is a different anon.
>>3858990
>I'm pretty sure people play RPGs for different reasons anon
The primary reason remains the same at least for crpgs.
>TTRPG
Those are strategy games, not rpg's.
>that different people like different things
The irony, you couldn't understand why people would play suboptimal builds for fucks sake.
>there are players that actually do care about that, I do
Oh what a surprise.
>>3858998
Try making an argument instead this time.I know you won't.

>>3858966
>>3858990
>>3858998
Oh, and can you stop this blatant samefagging? Just do a simple, singular reply.

>>3859018
>Try making an argument instead this time. I know you won't.
Like the argument I made in my first post, which you either completely misunderstood or failed to answer? Here, I'll restate it if the act of scrolling up and rereading it proves too difficult for you:
What if I want to play an intelligent and charismatic fighter without having to sacrifice the efficacy of my character? Why should I have to choose between the mechanical effectiveness of my character and being able to roleplay a character concept I enjoy? What's wrong with a system that allows me to do both?

>>3859030
>What if I want to play an intelligent and charismatic fighter without having to sacrifice the efficacy of my character?
So you want to roleplay as something but remove its weaknesses/limitations?
That is not roleplaying, roles imply strength and weakness that define a playstyle.
If you can make any role do anything, then just have 1 class that can do everything.

>>3859018
>So you don't even know what appeal to authority even is?
You clearly don't. Saying that everyone involved in a discussion doesn't agree with you with actual evidence from posts is not appeal to authority, which is how you used it when you tried to sound smart.
You now try and sound smart again, while just flaunting your ignorance.
Seriously dude, this is just embarrassing. Give it a rest.

>>3858966
>Like how about explaining how it's intuitive and logical for having high Strength in D&D means you have higher chance to hit?
When I see anons talk about things like this, I can only infer that they're a total fucking dweeb who has never lifted weights or played sports in their life. Your [lack of] intuition in this arena is worthless and meaningless.

>>3859018
This entire post is nothing to call others idiots, not discussing anything, not disproving anything and just to ignore the arguments people raise against you.
The irony of you saying people should make arguments only for you to ignore them is hilarious too.
This is textbook shitposting.

At this point you do not have a point or even something to discuss. Because you already lost that fight long ago, so now you just want to lash out to call all the bad people that proved you wrong dumb. Hilariously immature.

>>3859038
>When I see anons talk about things like this, I can only infer that they're a total fucking dweeb who has never lifted weights or played sports in their life.
Explain how you being able to bench press 20kg more than person B means you are much better at landing hits against an agile fencer that avoids all your strikes.
Then explain how charisma makes you a better sorceror.

>>3859034
>So you want to roleplay as something but remove its weaknesses/limitations?
I didn't say that. An intelligent and charismatic fighter should have its own strengths and weaknesses compared to one which focuses purely on physical stats, but I should still be able to play one without having to accept a significantly underpowered character because it's not one of the one or two ways the designers anticipated someone would play the class.

>If you can make any role do anything, then just have 1 class that can do everything.
I don't want to do everything, though. You made this mistake the first time you answered. I don't want to be a fighter that casts spells, or uses weeaboo fightan magic. Are you suggesting that the only two options are either completely rigid class and attribute systems or a system where one class can "do everything"? Is the idea of a fighter who's intelligent and charismatic while also being an effective fighter that inconceivable to you? As I said, what's wrong with a system that lets you play the class in both ways?

>>3859018
>TTRPG
>Those are strategy games, not rpg's.
are you an idiot?
what do you think TTRPG are?
ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the average PoE hater, literally mentally challenged

I think that's enough for me at this point
see you in the next thread

>>3859021
oh stfu retard you are talking to different poster, you fucking imbecile

>>3859046
Stop being a pussy, roll up a fighter with high INT and high CHA, and roleplay.

>>3859046
>n intelligent and charismatic fighter should have its own strengths and weaknesses compared to one which focuses purely on physical stats
That is asking way too much from any system to account for all possibilities with attributes and classes.When you add 10+ clauses into the mix, any designer would just be overwhelmed.

>>3859061
>what do you think TTRPG are?
Okey, fucked up and went immediately for tactical rpg abbreviation.
So let me rectify, this is video games we are talking about. TTRPG allow a lot more flexibility than video game systems.
You see schizo, how a normal human acts? Admits mistake and provides another argument.
Doesn't act like a retard and go name-calling immediately while dismissing every argument because of a single mistake.

>>3859071
>how a normal human acts?
Citation needed

>Should an attribute system make all attributes be important for all classes? Yes.
>Should some stats be completely useless for some classes and be dump stats so everyone minmaxes, from casuals to hardcore? No.
>Are the PoE attributes perfect? No.
>Are the DnD attributes perfect? No.
>Does PoE attributes try to fix the problems the DnD attributes have? Yes.
There, end of discussion.

>>3859078
It's not quite the end of the discussion.
PoE succeeded in its attempt to fix the problems the DnD attributes have.

>>3859078
>>Does PoE attributes try to fix the problems the DnD attributes have? Yes.
This is the crux. Does it try? Yes. Does it do a better job? In my opinion, no, it does a worse job. PoE had a couple good ideas (I am fond of its system of miss/graze/hit/crit, rather than binary miss/hit), but a lot about it is just dumb, not the least of which are the stats.

>>3859085
Attributes are fine in Pillars. I cared about their distribution and thought about them more. I never thought about them in dungeons and dragons games. I just slapped on items that boosted whatever min/max build I had. The attributes might not even have been there since everyone does the same.

>>3859065
>just accept being underpowered because it's a poorly designed system
In that case, why wouldn't I just roleplay in a better system instead?

>>3859066
PoE does it pretty well by making it so that attributes give the same benefits regardless of class, and making every attribute at least somewhat valuable to each class. Classes still have their own features and roles, but the choice of what to prioritize is entirely up to the player and their desired character concept. A Might-and-Constitution focused fighter is going to play very differently from one based around Intellect and Resolve, but one isn't going to be strictly better than the other.

>>3859095
>>just accept being underpowered because it's a poorly designed system
I’ve been occasionally humoring you in this thread in the hopes that an interesting discussion might result, but I am forced to conclude that you are, in fact, a retard who is not worth the time and effort. The other anon(s) were right. I’d be convinced that you are just baiting, but this is all a little too elaborate and sustained for that.

>>3859105
So, no argument or even a cogent response, just like every other time you've responded to my posts. Disappointing but I can't exactly say I'm surprised, considering you've misunderstood me throughout.
And I think you've got your posters mixed up, since nobody else in this thread has accused me of baiting. You really should read the posts you're responding to a little more carefully, anon.

>>3859071
>So let me rectify, this is video games we are talking about
THAT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD
HOW ABOUT YOU WORK ON YOUR FUCKING GRADE-SCHOOL TIER READING COMPREHENSION AND LOGIC

that is irrelevant to the point anon
different people like different things
yes, even people who are in the same hobby can enjoy different aspect of the hobby
the entire disagreement we are having is a rather obvious testament to that point
so claiming with certainty only you know the _one true reason people play rpgs_ (tm) is either dishonest or a sign of a severe mental deficiency
so what's it going to be?
trolling?
or retarded?

>>3858581
No, just trying to be thorough.

>>3858949
> just deflects
I pointed you at posts that I already made that were ignored. That's not "deflecting."

>The "conversation" started [...] saying the PoE attribute system is bad and the D&D system is good because the attributes and their effects doesn't make rational, logical and intuitive sense in PoE while they do in D&D.
Wrong. Totally wrong. This hallucination is why you keep making retarded posts. The topic of D&D is irrelevant.

- I challenged the claim that system design PoE is good.
- I claimed that it is "mediocre."
- Because it prioritizes build parity to the detriment of inspirational immersive fantasy, to a degree that, while not totally crippling, meaningfully impacts the experience of playing the game.

YOU(or some other PoE defender) brought up D&D.
You are now using it to strawman the original claim.
This is because binary-brains droolers can't handle any debate not reduced to "PoE good, D&D bad."

This led to people saying stupid, ignorant shit about D&D, which provokes people to defend D&D for what is, in fact, good about it. The subsequent TANGENT validated your hallucination, and you're refusing to let it go even when it's pointed out to you plainly.

>(you?)
There are other people responding. Sorry that I cannot help that, but if you paid more attention and responded to actual arguments instead hallucinations, it would be less of an issue. It shouldn't really matter who is responding to whom if people are making good points.

>>3850671
>If all stats were viable for a Wizard, THAT is when it comes more interesting, creative and "exciting". Because then you actually have to think about where to put your stats, what you want your Wizard to focus on.
I disagree with the perspective that "allocating stats" should be a focus of gameplay. The world will be populated with plenty of NPCs and other characters who will be defined by this same stat system. So the system should emphasize the end result of the allocations, not the process itself. An engaging character build process will be a positive side-effect of a system where an orthogonal combination of fundamental traits (character attributes, class), yields a large number of meaningfully different and viable builds.

The result might seem the same, but I think it's an important distinction. Because getting too caught up in the build autism angle can lead to ignoring the actual results. It's not merely important that you can choose to make a wizard viable with multiple stat spreads, what's important is that the resulting builds are actually fun to play and make a game world populated with such builds more compelling.

>>3859135
>revisionst history
>when half the thread he hasn't discussed the things he pulled from his ass at all, just calling people dumb and deflecting while deluding himself he's discussing and refuting anything
Why are you here again? Right, attentionwhoring and not being able to let go. You literally ignore and don't even greentext all of the things that disproves you. Well, we've moved on already, I suggest you do too.

>>3859164
>we've

If anything, this thread proves it's the anti-Josh posters that are the most mentally ill and obsessed. One of them shat up and derailed entire thread single handedly and is still going.

>>3859167
>Josh
Is this what the kids call “parasocial”? You don’t know him. I’ve posted with him on SA since almost a quarter-century ago and I’d never dream of referring to him on a first name basis. Are you the anon who calls Tim Cain “Tim” because you watched his YouTube videos or whatever?

>>3859122
>THAT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD
So a system where you can make shit up on the fly and a system extremely limited by its medium are the same thing when talking about
how people play rpg's on different mediums?
Let me give a example. You can do the fighter charisma thing in tabletop because the options are there, you can't in a video game because the options are simply not there.
Now, if you were actually confused and thought that board dedicated to VIDEO GAMES meant a discussion about the board variant, well that is on you.
Also, can you do a normal reply without chimping out?

>>3859181
>Is this what the kids call “parasocial”?
You can find the schizo buried deep in most cain or sawyer video comments. Just look for dnd or attributes and you will find him.

>>3859184
I urge you to start reading more than just the first line retard-anon
I don't mean it as an insult, you are obviously mentally challenged but that doesn't mean you are any less of a human

>>3859135
>I claimed that it is "mediocre."
my nigga let me tell you how it is for real
good-mediocre-bad is a relative scale
so instead of giving your deep thoughts on whatever the "inspirational immersive fantasy" is supposed to mean [which is obviously highly subjective and means different things to different anons, so is entirely non-productive] you should have just went
>it's mediocre compared to X
that's it
and until you do your value judgement bears no meaningfulness
hope that clears it up for you
cheers

>>3859185
>it's the same one person that follows me on the internet
you can't be for real anon
you are telling me you are an actual schizophrenic with a paranoid schizophrenia?

>>3859199
The rest of your post was irrelevant dribble masquerading as an argument.
Also, it was about "playing" and playing a video game and a board game is vastly different.
>you are obviously mentally challenged
What did i say:"Also, can you do a normal reply without chimping out?"
You couldn't even do the bare minimum.I would say i am disappointed, but that would have required some expectations in the first place.

Wow, this thread. So, how fun is pet/summoner build in pillars 1? Always like playing this style in any crpg.

>>3859203
>you should have dumbed-down the point so a retard like me can understand it.
Sorry, criticism is nearly always a sliding scale. If you can't handle concepts like "disappointing" and "not as good as it should have been" it means you're a binary brain thinker which is another way of saying you're an idiot.

>>3859206
>chimping out
I specifically said, I don't mean it as an insult

>>3859219
>I'm going to divert
naturally
it's hilarious you've set up this trap for yourself
c'mon anon, if it's mediocre what is it mediocre compared to? :^)

PS
>If you can't handle concepts like "disappointing" and "not as good as it should have been" it means you're a binary brain thinker
you keep on using that "binary brain thinker", I do not think it means what you think it means [as evident from that green text]

>>3859212
you think you are in a PoE thread?
this is a flamewar thread

>>3859043
>On strength and dexterity
D&D doesn't have an agility stat. In real life, strength is probably more correlated with agility than it is with dexterity. Look at NFL running backs, Olympic gymnasts, hell even professional dancers are usually ripped.
It doesn't matter though. There is no good answer, the line has to be drawn somewhere, it's not practical to have a stat for every conceivable attribute. For D&D the line was drawn very crudely because as has been mentioned numerous times, it's an archaic tabletop system meant for being used manually at a physical table with physical dice by real humans doing math in their heads or on paper.
>explain how charisma makes you a better sorceror.
Sorcerer is a class awkwardly bolted on to D&D 25 years after the original attribute system was conceived.
Is this really your argument? That PoE stats are good because the D&D 3e devs picked CHA as the main sorcerer stat for lack of a better option?

>>3859248
>c'mon anon, if it's mediocre what is it mediocre compared to? :^)
Mediocre is compared to what could have obviously been, had Sawyer done a better job designing PoE.

>>3859248
>you keep on using that "binary brain thinker"
You could prove me wrong with an intelligent response to any of my actual posts. But you haven't. You DEMAND I give you a binary comparison to nitpick irrelevant details on, because your brain is too stunted to handle even the simplest hypothetical.

>>3859249
It doesn't have to be.
The original question of the thread is:
>Why is this man design philosophy so polarizing
And the main reason is that so many of Sawyer's fans are retards like this guy: >>3859248 who cannot help shitting up threads with idiotic arguments. Honestly he's doing a better job of proving the point than anyone could have possibly asked. Normally, Sawyer fanatics are midwit at worst, but this guy is straight-up retarded.

>>3859264
lmao nigger
the degrees of quality [which mediocre belongs to by definition] is a relative metric
you claim to put something somewhere on that scale, you provide what the scale is by assigning reference points
>>3859262
this thread has seen some ass-wiggling but this might be the first place contender
nigger you list athletic activities that require both strength and agility
how about you take a look at the "grace" of early 2000s bodybuilders who did nothing but gain muscle weight and lost fat?
I'm not really arguing, I'm just want to see you bury yourself in dishonest excuses on your dumb-ass takes

>>3848838
>Instead we got grimdark urban slop
most of the game isn't even in a city

>>3847960 (OP)
He called design like BG3’s grognard, basically, then Larian made BG3 and blew everything he had ever made out of the water. It empirically proves that when he generalizes in this manner, he is out of his depth. OSE isn’t even difficult to learn, but people like him would make it sound like a monumental task.
>>3858516
People like this reframe the whole situation. Sure, most TTRPG systems aren’t perfect because they’re abstractions of real-world activities. Josh has clearly had three instances where he was the lead designer, and the best one he did was when he created an overly abstract system, such as Pentiment. Pillars system was shit, because it was overbalanced, and Tyranny's was only saved by the magic system if you even bothered to get into it.
His games did well, but only NV really stands shoulder-to-shoulder with BG3, and that's probably because he wasn’t the only voice in that.
>>3848419
This too, he's well read but politically illiterate. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he has people or bots post him on this board to keep him relevant. He does nothing, usually, and you really shouldn't even be thinking about him. Many of his games are team efforts, and similar to Dan Harmon, he's one of the weakest parts of the team.

>>3848028
>this guy can actually design.
Josh Sawyer can design a the narrative part in his RPGs, but when it comes to the Gameplay and the World part, he is not really the man for the job.

Still probably better than whoever worked on the latest Obsidian slop (Avowed, The Outer Worlds)

>>3851505
>Sawyer is still in the false headspace of leftist victim mentality.
>Hasn't yet ascended to right wing women in a full suit of historically accurate functional armor fetishism

>>3847960 (OP)
Because it is not fun and isn't deep either.

>put a loaded gun on the wall
>nothing ever happens
>>Oh, you expected something to happen? Well, nothing ever happens and nothing has any meaning

Woah.....

It's so fucking deep......

Why should I play it, THOUGH? o algo

>>3859269
>I'm not really arguing
No shit, because you can't.
But you can't help but post kneejerk hostile replies like a sub-sentient animal.

>>3859762
>you can't
:3 I literally provided an argument in the post you are replying to, you niggeR ^^
I'm not arguing with you because naturally as I predicted you've provided no argument
love and kisses :* <3

>>3859806
>I literally provided an argument
You posted a mindless, context-free, kneejerk retort that's not even worth a response. You failed to process the comparative adverb on strength, you didn't address the point about D&D not having an agility stat at all (requiring some sort of compromise using other stats). You didn't acknowledge the relevance of the tabletop context. You ignored the point on Sorcerers entirely.

Since you admitted you weren't arguing, I took that as the explanation for why your post was so retarded and didn't bother to even try answering it. It's clear you have no genuine interest in or understanding of games at all.

>>3860080
partially fair, then again the
> strength is probably more correlated with agility than it is with dexterity. Look at...
argument was so retarded in its core it was hard to take the post as anything but bait

let's try again giving some benefit of the doubt
hopefully you now agree on the STR point so we can stop here
>D&D not having an agility stat at all
irrelevant formalism, dexterity is the stat governing agility
>You didn't acknowledge the relevance of the tabletop context
irrelevant
computers can do maths so designers can use somewhat more complex mathematical systems like percentages, coefficients etc.
which no sane person would include in a TT RPG
but it doesn't mean an RPG should have bazzilion stats to simulate reality
you do that it stops being an RPG on a very fundamental level and starts being a simulation game [if you don't understand the difference, you can ask and I will try to explain]
>You ignored the point on Sorcerers entirely.
yeah well it's not brought up by me so I have little interest over that, I think using makeup -> makes you physically more attractive -> CHA bonus because that's what 3e/PF1e governs -> AC bonus for say monks is way more fucking hilarious
but combine that with
>(requiring some sort of compromise using other stats)
yes, precisely what's the whole argument is about
TTRPG systems are inherently gamified abstractions, and everyone's favorite system [whichever because it's all of them] is laughably "unrealistic" no matter the crunch, so why the hell should it be selectively used as an argument against PoE attribute system but not to shit on all other systems?

>>3860187
tldr; version

let's not forget the main point of this argument as it started
>"unrealistic" attributes argument is used against PoE attribute system
>the other side can see that this argument is pointless because while it is being used SELECTIVELY against PoE it can in fact be used against ANY RPG system
>because all RPG systems are and always will be inherently "unrealistic" gamified abstract systems

the only thing left to say is why is the last point in fact true
>because RPGs in fact to do not have a goal to "realistically" simulate reality, that's the design goal of a totally different genre, namely simulations, and that leads to entirely different gameplay

>400 replies
>idiots are still going at it
>when it all started with one idiot treating baseless opinions as fact

>>3847960 (OP)
I don't think his design philosophy is polarizing, it's his writing. Most people just lump the two together.

>come back to /vrpg/ 2 years later
>the same anon is “trolling” by spamming his own Sawyer thread

>>3860731
Welcome back, buddy. It's scary out there.

>>3850138
you sound like a rape baby

>>3849021
>Unarmed
Unarmed in New Vegas sucks major time until the player finds knuckle dusters which are somewhere around 2nd "village".

>>3848925
>There’s zero carryover between a giant flamethrower and a laser pistol.

Just as there is zero carryover between hacking and biology, yet both of them are grouped under "science"?

Fallout skill system is unrealistic and reductive to begin with, nothing Sawyer could have done with it save for completely scrapping it.

>>3861192
village?
you mean town? you mean primm?

>>3847960 (OP)
Not interested in a game set in my own people's history, designed by a commifornian gaylord cuckboy.
Pillars was lame as well and Outer Worlds + Avowed are straight up trash.

>>3861486
Hamlet, maybe. Definitely not a town. Maybe a quest hub is a better way of putting it. If I remember right it's a settlement consisting of like a casino where everyone and a robot live plus a "monster dungeon" building with raiders. Yeah, they are surrounded by ruins, but I am pretty sure those ruins are either ruined or unenterable with raider mobs skulking about.

>>3861488
>Not interested in a game set in my own people's history
are you a Glanfathan for real anon?

>>3847960 (OP)
Just imagine how much pussy Sawyer gets. Probably nailed all the female developers so good they don't even file false accusations.

>>3860731
I'm OP and I think I have only intervened once in the thread, I didn't know there were so many Sawyersexuals

>>3860731
Based Sawyer

what happened to obvious value

>>3859212
>pet
rangers are pretty mid but they deal decent damage and don't require much micromanagement, solid addition to the team when all other roles are filled
>summoner
chanters are best at this but they really only shine in long fights due to how the chant mechanic works

>>3861539
Perhaps he is, and may G-d forgive me for uttering this term, a B*varian

As RPG designers, Obsidian games have always been average, with Bioware being slightly better than them. But as writers, they are probably the best, and that includes Japanese games. Those guys need better game designers. Larian BTFO them in every Divinity game.

>>3864167
>But as writers, they are probably the best
Stopped reading here

>>3864171
Obsidian's writing is some of the best in gaming. I've never played one of their games and felt like I was reading pointless fluff or some kind of teenage crap like JRPGs. Their problem is that as designers, they're not really very creative or good, as awoved proved.

>>3864167
pretty good bait for both camps, and I mean it
I wonder if you generated it or made it yourself?

>>3864178
No. I'm just a lazy ESL. My opinion comes from my experience with Obsidian games, which are played more for their writing than their gameplay mechanics. People overrate FNV like crazy. Technically, their best game, Dark Alliance, wasn't made by them. You could argue the same for FNV, which only takes advantage of Bethesda's engine improvements. The Outer Worlds was overrated as hell. Arkane BTFO Obsidian in its own game. But Arkane are game designers first, artists second, and their writing only comes out good because of the strength of the first two.

>>3864172
The design is mostly fine to good in Avowed.
Bethesda are the ones with shockingly bad design, as Starfield proved. Probaly partially because of that dumb fuck Emil.

>>3864167
I'm playing through BG3 right now and I'm struggling to find what's well designed in that game. The baffling decision to go with the D20 for checks is full-blown retarded. It shows they do not understand basic game design or probability design.
They then fuck up even basic features like mercs with Hirelings where they have fixed races, genders and voices for absolutely no good reason. I bet they didn't even initially allows respeccing and people had to ask for it.
Quest design is also very strange and bad. Many quests are picked up and instantly completed, sometimes even along the main path. Meaning there is no quest. A bunch of it is just go and kill shit in an area.
I could ramble on, but point is I have no fucking clue what you're talking about when you claim Larian is good at design. They even fuck up basic shit.

>>3864172
post NV the world building can be detailed but there is humdrum and a lack of sexiness to it. it's like you are reading a rulebook rather than ancient history
Maybe I'm listing design here? but then I think the design has to stand out more than the writing. If I don't enjoy the design in poe then I won't enjoy the writing.

>>3864341
>I'm playing through BG3 right now and I'm struggling to find what's well designed in that game.
Nothing, it just has high production values.
>The baffling decision to go with the D20 for checks is full-blown retarded. It shows they do not understand basic game design or probability design.
Beyond this, the worst part is that they homebrewed a rule for you to fail on 1 and auto-succeed on 20, which is not in the rules. So you fail checks you shouldn't fail, and pass checks you should have no way of passing. There's even a meme DC99 check at the end of the game, yup, 5% chance to pass it.
>They then fuck up even basic features like mercs with Hirelings where they have fixed races, genders and voices for absolutely no good reason.
They removed this functionality from DOS2, presumably out of spite for the player, because they're upset that you don't want to play as or with their precious snowflake companions, all of whom are incredibly obnoxious and stupid.
>I bet they didn't even initially allows respeccing and people had to ask for it.
I seem to recall this being added in one of the EA patches.

>>3864341
>I'm playing through BG3 right now and I'm struggling to find what's well designed in that game. The baffling decision to go with the D20 for checks is full-blown retarded. It shows they do not understand basic game design or probability design.
I think what bg3 is doing is letting people get immersed in tabletop.
Not immersed in forgotten realms, but the actual table top game of d&d, which is why there's so much focus on rolling the dice and seeing it.
It's mainly for people who got into d&d through watching shows like critical roll.

I still think it's fine and does some stuff okay, like area design isn't too bad.
I played with 2 people who had already played it, and when we were going to githyanki creche, I was making jokes about what we'd find there and how many githyanki we'd expect to see in a creche, based on my reading Fiend Folio, so it feels somewhat lived in.
I know the og bg1 developers read like every book about baldur's gate, so a lot of npcs are just taken from the dnd material, like even minor things like the blacksmith in Beregost, and I really appreciate stuff like that, and I think leaned a bit towards that at least.
Sadly, it's still post 3e d&d and I don't really like forgotten realms in 4e and after and dnd's design sentiments.

>I bet they didn't even initially allows respeccing and people had to ask for it.
Early access feedback seemed to have a ruined a lot.

>>3864341
he's probably trolling, but also BG3 isn't the only game Larian has designed. BG3 is a particularly unholy combination of big-budget ambitions, franchise expectations, and Larian formula.

>>3864399
We’re now at the stage where people “get into DnD” by playing a shitty video game targeted at people who listen to a show about actors playing DnD. We are reaching levels of grim that shouldn’t even be possible.
>I know the og bg1 developers read like every book about baldur's gate, so a lot of npcs are just taken from the dnd material, like even minor things like the blacksmith in Beregost, and I really appreciate stuff like that
There was a line in the bg3 credits that really stuck with me. In the thank you sections, someone wrote “thanks to my friend so and so who told me more than I ever needed to know about the original games” or something like that. Implying that one, they weren’t familiar with the originals, and two, they considered some finite amount of cursory knowledge to be adequate, with any more being excessive. Really was a different time.

>>3864406
>BG3 is bad because it's popular
I don't get it. Obsidian has never done anything even close to the level of Pyranha Bytes (which is arguably Eurojank), and people go crazy for their mid-games. Which only have writing and vibes.

>>3864891
People don't like Obsidian, they like Bioware and Bethesda

>>3864904
People like Obsidian just fine. They're one of the few surviving and long lasting RPG studios that are still around.
Directly contrast them with how hard Bioware has fallen. Bioware is one game away from being shut down.

>>3864935
DEI spigot getting cut off is finally putting them under? They haven’t made a good game in a decade.

>>3864891
>BG3 is bad
Yes.
>because it's popular
No.

>>3864946
They've only made three games in that time (and one of them was a spinoff), their retarded management is a problem in itself. Not for much longer, though.

>>3864948
anon, most companies can’t have two bad quarters back to back. This is a company that has not produced anything good in 15 years - its a miracle of DEI.

>>3864975
Oh, I'm agreeing with you. I just wanted to point out that not only have they failed to make a good (or even acceptable) game in all that time, they've barely released anything, so the entire company has been subsidised doing... not much. If they'd churned out 15 asset flip games in the same timeframe at least you could argue for volume of production.

>>3865102
They peaked with Alpha Protocol. Been all downhill from there.

>>3865106
I was talking about Bioware. Regardless, peaking with one of the best RPGs ever made is nothing to be ashamed of. It's a shame they couldn't capitalise on it more, but that's more due to the publisher being retarded.

>>3865109
>I was talking about Bioware
Oops, my mistake. They peaked with Baldur's Gate

The most amazing part of Bioware dying isn't even primarily their own fault, but the gross mismanagement by EA with their retarded CEO and other top suits. EA has killed so many studios and games now it's insane.
Pictured isn't even close to the complete list.

>>3865110
Sad, isn't it? The worst thing about it is that you have to look at all the money and resources they've squandered, and for what? At least most of Obsidian's work (especially their earlier games) were mid-budget titles.

>>3865111
Trips of truth. Fucked up. So many huge names from the 90s. Bittersweet nostalgia, we didn’t know how good we had it

>>3865111
>if only EA had wasted even more money on BioWare, people would have LOVED the faggot propaganda

>>3865121
This isn’t even bait where you’re “ironically” pretending to not get his point, you’re just retarded.

>>3865121
EA
>drove the 2 founders out of the company
>pushed a singleplayer rpg studio to make more and more action, multiplayer and live service focused games
>pushed them to add more and more microtransactions to their games
>actively prevented them from making proper rpgs
>forced them to start using an engine made for battlefield to make their games, but didn't even give them the programming and tech support to learn using it
>suits with no dev experience giving exact design demands for their games
>etc
And to top it off EA's Andrew Wilson is so far gone he thinks Veilguard would've been successful if they made it a live service game "like he told them to do, but they were strongly against".
Put any RPG dev you like under EA and the result would be the same. Death by a thousand incompetent EA cuts.

>>3865121
Even the retarded point you're trying to make doesn't make sense, since clearly EA was happy to waste a bunch of money on Bioware, it was just coupled with retarded directions which ensured they were never going to see any return.

>>3865111
>>3865132
Almost impressive how badly they've managed to mismanage so many properties for so long, I don't think I could've fucked it up worse if I'd tried. Bioware had its issues but EA would've genuinely been better off just leaving them to do their own work. Imagine thinking that bringing back fucking Casey Hudson so he can ruin two more games is the way to go.

Bump

>>3865124
>>3865132
>>3865140
And he’s right, they needed to monetize it far more heavily. You are never going to get a big audience for gay propaganda, so you need to extract maximum cash from the small amount of people who actually enjoy that stuff. They should have had be a monthly subscription and you had to pay an additional $49.99 to gay marry your non-binary romantic interest. Making it cheaper wouldn’t have made it better - it just would have made it less profitable.

>>3866630
>You are never going to get a big audience for gay propaganda
Baldur's Gate 3 is quite literally the best selling crpg of all time.

>>3867601
Because there's a reasonable amount of freedom to say fuck off to gay shit.
Now remind us of the biggest financial wipeout of the past 2 decades

>>3867606
Yahoo?
Kodak?

>>3847960 (OP)
>Sawyer doesn't get why BG3 was successful
Seems weird to me. He is a veteran RPG developer after all

>>3867608
>>3867606
Subprime mortgage crisis obviously.

>>3867601
Turns out, designing the first crpg pandering exclusively to retards outweighs including a lot of gay shit.

>>3867717
The reasons BG3 sold a lot has more to do with esoteric features of viral marketing strategies, brand recognition, a lot of money spent on graphics for an over-the-shoulder immersion (compared to top-down semi-isometric feeling for Deadfire / Pathfinder) and the extreme undersaturation of the RPG demographic in video games.

The actual game itself fucking sucks, and not just because it's 5e. It's **SHORT**. Like, crazy super short. You can complete the entire game in less than five total hours spent outside of the tedious combats. It's sloppy. The UI and inventory management are excruciating - it literally isn't even an improvement over BG2's inventory back in the 1990s twenty five years ago. It has no mechanical character customization (because it's 5e) and extremely limited cosmetic customization (you're either a muscular athlete or a HYPER muscular athlete with ridiculous roid bulk). A minuscule cast of companion characters, and very little variety between their personalities and quests.

Despite twenty five years of development in game design, BG3 somehow still manages to be a smaller, less flexible, and clunkier game than BG2.

And we haven't even talked about the writing part yet because that's harder for people who are not professionals to really understand what all is wrong with it.

>>3867724
While I largely agree with most of your post, and was also very underwhelmed by BG3, I disagree that the game was short. There's a lot of stuff if you're a completionist, I can easily see a first run taking 100+ hours, and that's with Larian lying about cutting half of act 3 and clumsily shoving what content was finished into nooks and crannies of the lower city.
I suppose you're describing hypothetically beelining the mainquest, which may be correct, but I don't think many people do that.

>>3867730
Well, I just wasn't super interested in pausing every two seconds to jack off over each flower, barrel and mushroom I encountered in the environment. There just is not much content in the game. It doesn't have much to do with whether you're a completionist because there just isn't much to complete. There's technically a dozen areas that are optional to explore, but if you're not following a guide you won't know they're optional and they're pretty much just along the way to your target anyway so they don't slow you down much. You can walk directly across the Act 1 map in like two minutes by just clicking at the exist and waiting for the running animations to play.

>>3867741
>>3867724
This applies to pretty much literally every crpg ever thoughbeit, even the ones that are full of pointless bloat like Kingmaker/WOTR.

>>3848498
>Pentiment is pretty much universally accepted as a great "art game"
The only "people" that have played Pentiment are Sawyer cultists so of course they're going to suck it off.