Thread 3856872

The writing in this game is awful. It's cringy and written like a YA story or a fan-fiction. There is this constant insincerity to most of what everyone says mixed with a tonal whiplash of the seriousness of the plot and the way the characters react to it.

Just in the prologue alone, the whole city is attacked, you fall into a cave and the first person you meet is a character named Seelah and within minutes she's cracking jokes with this exact line: "To Summarize, there are three of us, five working legs, three pairs of decent hands, two clear heads and one made of wood. Underground monsters beware!" which is exactly the kind of line you'd expect to hear improving at a d&d table. It's cheesy and not that funny but it could be passable if you were just messing about with your friends but a writer actually thought that was the best line to use for the situation. It completely robs the moment of any sincerity and immediately sets the tone of "We're not *actually* taking this plot seriously, we're aware how silly it sounds".

The same goes for Lann who you meet only a few minutes later. And then in the Tavern you can meet Wjolf who is a cringy teenage-sounding thief who actually calls the jail guard a "Dum-dum".

Along with this there is heavy exposition in nearly everything they say. The sort of writing that goes "Hey, it's you! The one who did that recent thing! The one everyone's been talking about. I'm X, the one you were sent to meet by your quest-giver. Here's my backstory. Here's why I'm important to the thing you're currently doing."

Everything is a constant chore to read in a game where you're reading 80% of the time for 100+ hours.

If anyone feels similarly about this style of writing, can you point me to games that are well-written? I really wanted to like WOTR because mechanically it all sounded fun and looked great but I physically can't bring myself to play anymore because the writing is so horrific.

Sounds like you might like Pillars of Eternity, the first one at least.
There sure is exposition and lore dumps. But it takes itself serious and can be very dry about it. The occasional joke makes sense in-universe, it's something that feels natural for the characters to say.

>>3856875
I actually have played the first POE and I agree the writing is significantly better. I liked it well enough but probably won't play the second as I felt there wasn't much player agency/real choices to be had and I've heard the second game overall is just worse.

I enjoyed Tyranny a lot because it had a ton of player agency and reactivity.

I've wanted to play DOS:2 but from the clips I've seen it seems to have that constant snarky, self-aware sense of humor that I hate in WOTR

>>3856872 (OP)
Isn't the whole point of both Pathfinder games to emulate tabletop roleplay atmosphere, with both the good and bad aspects of it?

Somewhere in the 90's a dungeons & dragons player asked "But WHY are we entering the dungeon?" and the hobby was forever ruined.

>>3856886
I don't believe Owlcat saw their writing as the "bad aspects" of it.

DnD is an amazing framework for a game but can be completely ruined if you don't jive with the group.

>>3856878
Bg3?

>>3856872 (OP)
Marvel Writing sure is a kick.

>>3856890
Played BG3, Tyranny, POE, Dragonfall Returns, Disco Elysium

BG3 was fun but after getting to Act 3 I was so burnt out by it and haven't went back.

Tyranny is great

Dragonfall Returns was good but very little in the way of choices/roleplay

Disco Elysium I could never really get into. The writing is insane and funny at times but also drags out every conversation into a constant stream of nonsense and I couldn't really get gripped into the story because it felt like the game was just made as a sandbox to RP an unhinged dude rather than being a compelling story

>>3856896
Yeah Marvel writing is the best way to describe it. But Marvel movies are fast-paced and over within 2 hours. Playing a game with that writing for 80+ hours is exhausting

>>3856872 (OP)
>Pathfinder: Cringe of the Righteous
Talking about quippy writing...

lol

>>3856903
Maybe Owlcat can pay me and I'll fit right in

>>3856872 (OP)
I can heap blame upon liberals but it's not completely fair: the reality is the entire fantasy genre has become so derivative this is what you get now.

We might not even have so many liberals if fantasy held up to what it used to be.
Find me a description of a 'fireball' or 'adventurer' in something like Gene Wolfe and you'll see my point.

Look at how Marvel handled Norse mythology vs. how Tolkien handled it, you'll see my point again.
Fantasy isn't just horns and tails tacked onto your coomer fantasy, it's the sense of mystique and portent that is as hard to build as a good horror atmosphere and harder than the drama you might find in a police procedural, that is why it's so rare, and everything is so hackneyed.

>>3856908
You absolutely would. That's probably why the writing bothers you: self-loathing, you see yourself in it. Didn't really phase me beyond a few eye rolls.

>>3856909
I think it's simpler than that and the writing gets worse so that it's accessible to all ages. Old-school RPGs had better writing because they knew their audience was someone who owned a PC when they were nowhere near as common, and were able to understand the complex and janky game mechanics. All of that without having the internet to help with and all they had was a manual.

They knew their audience was mature and wrote accordingly. It's only now that 5 year olds are allowed gaming consoles that developers see the potential in a new demographic.

They'd rather spread their net to everyone and hope the numbers do well instead of making a well-tailored game for the fans.

>>3856902
The problem is Marvel Writing, even in movies, has gotten old since marvel made like five hundred movies in the same style.

>>3856912
>Old-school RPGs had better writing
Such as? In my experience older RPGs just didn't have much writing at all.
>complex and janky game mechanics
Ah, you haven't actually played old RPGs.

>>3856915
>>Old-school RPGs had better writing
>Such as? In my experience older RPGs just didn't have much writing at all.
Precisely.

>>3856915
Planescape, Arcanum, BG1&2, Fallout 2

Complex might not be the right word. Unrefined or less polished. But yes janky as in you need patches or full restoration projects just to prevent these games from bricking while you play.

>>3856913
They see a winning formula one time and know how to milk it

>>3856916
Well, blame Bioware and their Joss Whedon influenced dialogue trees and developer created companions for that. Older nerds wanted to play a game and then read a book, newer nerds want to read tiresome dialogue trees and romance companions.

>>3856917
>Planescape, Arcanum, BG1&2, Fallout 2
Extremely easy games with virtually no barrier for entry.
>you need patches or full restoration projects just to prevent these games from bricking while you play
Holy newfag.

>>3856920
My list of games was in response to older games having better writing.

>>3856921
The rationale for why they had better writing was that they were aimed at a more intelligent/older audience due to a barrier of entry, no? PS:T was influenced by FF7, for Christ's sake. Fallout 2 is full of quips. BG1 is a Highlander ripoff. Your ideas have no merit. RPG writing has always been bad and better when a game doesn't focus on it at all. The big problem is developer created party members. Real old school RPGs did full party creation.

>>3856872 (OP)
You're right but also pretty reductive, there are a lot of characters I don't remember doing out of place modern office worker humor. They definitely do fumble the intro though. I didn't buy into the reality of anything and a lot of it was the lame dialog.

My guess is that it's just down to which writer is doing what part and a more universally valid complaint is just that it's very patchy.

>>3856924
Your logic doesn't make sense. Saying "RPG writing has always been bad" doesn't mean that all RPG games are equally bad. You might think no RPG has good writing, but some are still better than others. The games I listed being at the top for me.

And the barrier for entry being that the writing and gameplay mechanics are going to go over the heads of younger audiences and they won't engage with them.

I could technically say "every movie has zero barrier for entry because all you need to do is sit there and watch it" but that doesn't mean you recommend or expect children to sit through 2001: A space Odyssey and understand or engage with it in the same way they'll sit through a Disney movie.

>>3856917
The problem is that writing formulas are supposed to be the basis.
For example you can apply three acts to 90% of western writing but they are still usually very distinct stories.

>>3856926
I'll admit that I hadn't played through the game enough to see most of the companions but when 3 out of the first 5 companions you meet have this same attitude, I was sick of it. I've looked up others and it seems like Nenio is another character with this annoying style.

>>3856872 (OP)
>be me
>excited to roll up a crusader and kill six gorillion demons
>make a paladin of Iomedae
>meet Seelah, an illegal character because paladins are supposed to be humans only, not demihumans
>mfw
>”How do you do, fellow crusader of Iomedae?”
>”YOU’RE MY KIND OF CRAZY!”
>my smile and immersion… gone
>mfw

>>3856930
Camellia is the only interesting companion in the game. The rest are complete shit shit. Regill is okay as an advisor, acting as a foil for a typical lawful goody two shoes.

>>3856942
Agreed. After hearing all the praise the game gets and then it's like rocking up to a D&D party of higherschoolers instead of professional writers. High stakes but no emotional attachment, cringey dialogue and an immense amount of sex jokes.

>>3856926
I wouldn't put more than 1 fourth wall breaking character per game and that includes modern speech patterns. You don't have to thee and thou it up but you can do better than yo what's up boomers.

I wouldn't even put one in for a while since everyone is burned out on modernism.

>>3856945
Regill's writing sucks, it's a liberal view of fascism which means random psychotic murderhobo multiplied by their other murderhobo org, the Godclaw which is also ludicrously dysfunctional. It's only saved by the posh voice acting.

>>3856878
I don't think DOS2 writing is bad in a similar way. It's more like the universe itself is whimsical and absurd, rather than the characters not taking the world or themselves seriously. Also, the voice acting is just miles better.

>>3856928
>RPG games
...
>The games I listed being at the top for me
> the writing and gameplay mechanics are going to go over the heads of younger audiences
Your logic makes no sense, you listed a few older games, some with spotty writing like BG1/2 and Fallout 2, which you consider to have good writing that goes over the heads of console players, when some of these games were influenced by jRPGs, but earlier you made blanket statements about modern RPGs versus newer RPGs. Additionally many 12 year olds played and enjoyed all the games you listed. The fact is that there's only a few well written games, as it should be, because writing isn't important to RPGs.

Your argument doesn't hold up, it's based on your misapprehensions about older games.

>>3856978
>newer RPGs
*older

>>3856971
The dialogue gets just as stupid/reddit sometimes, but not nearly as often in DOS2 as in something like Wrath, and the stakes and atmosphere are much better.

The island and the stilling scenes with the silent monks etc set a really fearful tone with a clearly organized enemy you are consistently built up to hate instead of just random demons with random motivations everywhere.

>>3856928
>RPG games
>Role-playing game games

>>3856945
>acting as a foil for a typical lawful goody two shoes
>okay as an advisor
>50% advice is to take your own troops and execute them
yeah, edgelord

>>3856978
The original point I made, the one that you had a problem with, was that I thought older RPGs had better writing than modern day ones. I was pitting the top classic rpgs vs the top modern rpgs and I believe the old writing to be better.

You made a blanket statement that all RPGs have bad writing. Then you contradict yourself because now you say "there's only a few well written games"

And my point still stands that I believe older ones to be written better because their core audience would be older and expecting a more mature level of writing. Just because you say some 12 year olds played and enjoyed the games I listed doesn't change anything. 12 year olds can enjoy war dramas, horror movies or even raunchy comedies. It doesn't mean that it was written with them in mind, and if it had been written with them in mind the level of writing would be significantly dumbed down. Which is exactly what I believe is happening with modern crpgs because they are trying to make them too accessible.

>>3856999
>I thought older RPGs had better writing than modern day ones
This is wrong. Most RPGs, old or new, have bad writing. Even most of the ones you praised aren't well written or especially mature. I'd even say they are the games that led to this state.
>And my point still stands that I believe older ones to be written better because their core audience would be older and expecting a more mature level of writing
This is wrong. Teenagers played these games and they still do. Marvel movies are loved by plenty of 30 year olds.
>if it had been written with them in mind the level of writing would be significantly dumbed down
This is wrong. Not everyone looks down on 12 year olds. You should go for an IQ angle instead.
>Which is exactly what I believe is happening with modern crpgs because they are trying to make them too accessible.
This is wrong. Accessibility has little to do with it, the devs aren't even that clever, the key you are missing is that contemporary are influenced by what entertainment media they grew up with.

The overall problem you have is with a cultural zeitgeist borne of self-consciousness feeding on self-consciousness, this was beginning even with Don Quixote. Ironically, you have a childlike understanding of the things you are complaining about.

>>3856917
BG1&2 had their own share of quirk chungus writing and companions whose entire personality was "t3h penguin of d00m". They would absolutely catch flack for "reddit writing" if they were released today. Fallout 2 is so heavy on quirk chungus and pop culture references it already gets called proto-reddit anyway. Video game writers always inserted irony and their questionable senses of humor into RPG writing, you just got jaded.

>>3856872 (OP)
>tonal whiplash of the seriousness of the plot and the way the characters react to it.
>>3856917
>Planescape, Arcanum, BG1&2, Fallout 2
>>3856921
>My list of games was in response to older games having better writing.
Come on guys

BG2 your first companion is a retard who jammed a hamster up his ass

You turn a blind eye to old games and scrutinize every sentence of new games. Opinion disregarded. Stop being a jaded old fuck, take a break from video games.

>>3857010
>This is wrong. Most RPGs, old or new, have bad writing. Even most of the ones you praised aren't well written or especially mature.
Again, it doesn't disprove anything. All RPGs can be terribly written while still having some that are better than others. Unless you want to suggest that all RPGs from Planescape to Veilguard all have equal quality in writing, then this point provides no value.
>This is wrong. Teenagers played these games and they still do. Marvel movies are loved by plenty of 30 year olds.
And Disney movies can be loved by adults, it doesn't change who the target audience is.
>This is wrong. Not everyone looks down on 12 year olds. You should go for an IQ angle instead.
Age up to a point is a valid indicator for intelligence and themes. A piece of media aimed at 16 year olds would share most things with adults. For 12 year olds it would not.
>This is wrong. Accessibility has little to do with it, the devs aren't even that clever, the key you are missing is that contemporary are influenced by what entertainment media they grew up with.
Accessibility has a major part to do with it even just viewing this from a purely logical point of view. You and I will be able to understand television, games, books etc that a 3 year old can read and upwards. 3 year olds will not be able to understand media, art and literature aimed for adults. So the easiest way to cast the biggest net for who can understand/play your game is to dumb it down to the lowest point you can get away with.

>>3857011
>>3857014

And I do still roll my eyes when I catch these things even in what I consider to be good games. The difference is it's either minimal in comparison to today's amount or the rest of the writing is good enough to make me overlook it. I don't consider a few lines, some moments here and there from considering a game's writing good. But when it gets excessive to the point of overshadowing the rest of the game, I can't push past that.

>>3857018
>few lines, some moments here and there
Lol, fuck off. Replay and pay attention.

>>3857016
>Again, it doesn't disprove anything. All RPGs can be terribly written while still having some that are better than others
Yes, it's irrespective of time. You haven't proven that older RPGs are written better. In fact, you did the opposite.
>it doesn't change who the target audience is.
You haven't established that the target audience are children for WotR. I highly doubt that it is, considering what happens in the game, like cannibalism and serial killers.
>Accessibility has a major part to do with it even just viewing this from a purely logical point of view.
In your head, I'm sure it does. Using actual logic? No. Style is the name of the game.

Again, a set of childish points from a childish mind.

>>3856963
The ironic part is that if liberals knew what real fascism looked like, it'd terrify them that they'd be informing to people like Regill for good boy points.

>>3856872 (OP)
My rpg companions have personalities? Oh noh !!

>>3857163
This but unironically

>>3857163
>>3857187
This is a poor take. The argument being made is that they have bad writing, not that they have personalities.

I don't know, I mash through the dialogue anyway. What I hate about it is the shit encounter design and the fact that there's only like three playstyles.

>>3856945
>Camellia is the only interesting companion in the game
She's just a generic CE character, there's nothing special about her, you just want to fuck her
no, she doesn't "subvert your expectations" she's obviously evil from the get-go and anyone with a brain knows it

>>3856872 (OP)
You forgot to mention Camellia and Nenio who also spend 99% of their dialogue trying to be funny, the former being a rich bitch who is toooooootally not evil and the latter being genuinely reddit incarnate. Then there's also Daeran who is just Woljif/Lann but more mean (this place will tell you he's the exception because they want to fuck him)

>>3857292
I never made it to the part with Nenio. The only companion who I wanted to talk to was Wenduag because she seemed like the only character with any seriousness about her. Everyone else felt they just wanted to be funny.

>>3856872 (OP)
everything you said applies to your post lol!

>>3856872 (OP)
Wenduag and Regill are based though

>>3856978
okay but if someone types
>RP Games
then they just look like a retard

>>3856872 (OP)
i tend to believe turn based combat correlates with bad writing.

>>3857396
Owlcat's shit is written by fat and mentally ill Russian women, and also their pet cuckolds. It'll get even worse!

>>3857371
Don't worry, every post you type makes you look retarded. Go wild.

>>3856878
>I've heard the second game overall is just worse
It really isn't
Well... it's worst in some departments, most notably there are less fully fledged companions and less likable fully fledged companions
Another common critique is the main story being very short, with which I don't agree
The main [i.e. critical to finishing the game] quest line is indeed short but the main story is what you make of it while doing other, non-critical-path, quests as well, since most but the very trifle quests tie in into the main story and themes
IMO a misunderstood and welcome ttrpg-style attempt at sandboxing not only the gameplay but the story as well

and when it comes to rpg system and mechanics PoE2 is a straight up upgrade

>>3857018
bg2 is particularly guilty of bad writing because of not taking itself seriously
bg1 writing is OK [for a videogame] but definitely shouldn't be put on a pedestal
also I feel for OP WotR is just too of the charts quirky for me

>>3857396
WOTR was not turn based in its release.
Turn based got added afterwards after they saw how much fans liked it.

>>3857464
Stop talking about games you don't know anon, that was Kingmaker, WotR came out with turn based by default

>>3857465
>and though our creative vision for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is real-time with pause—we’ve designed and balanced the game to be played that way—we don't want to ignore the voices of a huge part of our community that is asking for turn-based mode.
>Once again, we want to stress out that our new CRPG is designed and balanced for RTWP,
it just got shoehorned in for release but the game was not designed for it
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2755596

>>3857477
>our new CRPG is designed and balanced
>designed
>balanced
lol, no

>>3857464
>WOTR was not turn based in its release.
>Turn based got added afterwards after they saw how much fans liked it.
No. They did this with Kingmaker, which released as RTWP only, and a fan made a turn-based mod, which was later integrated into the game in a patch.
WotR then included turn based from day one. There’s even a meme quest paid for by the codex that forces turn based mode as a gotcha.
>t. played it on day one

>>3857481
>t. played it on day one
what kind of retard plays an Owlcat game on day one instead of waiting a year for patches?

>>3857482
>year
Lmao it's actually four years now, it's 4 DLCs a game, and they "upgraded" from 9 months per dlc to 12.

>>3857482
The only Owlcat game I had played previously was kingmaker enhanced edition, after it was fully patched, so I had never experienced their pure jank of their games at release. WotR was virtually unplayable until about six months after launch. The experience is why I still haven’t bought rogue trader, I am content to wait for the “it’s finally fucking done” edition.

>>3857490
rogue trader was fun
I think it's because the setting forces you to take things seriously, so no room for cringey humor
I played it only a few months after release
it had some bugs but nothing gamebreaking

also rogue trader is what an RPG designed from the start for turn-based looks like

turn-based never really fit in WOTR because the game wasn't designed for it
i.e. it had a million super easy encounters that get tedious in turn-based

but rogue trader only has the important encounters

>>3857500
>but rogue trader only has the important encounters
Bit of an overstatement, but I'll allow it since it's comparatively much better than the PF games.

>>3857490
The "jank" and bugginess is a bit overstated. I've played all three games since their releases. They've gotten better with patches and expansions and mods, but they were just fine early on, too.

>>3857516
I can’t speak for kingmaker and rogue trader, but WotR was fucked at launch. Basic functionality like charging in combat was broken and you’d randomly get stuck on a pebble and stop, quests and scripting didn’t work right, etc. like I said, it wasn’t really playable for about six months or so.

>>3856945
>>3856963
I will not tolerate based Reggy slander itt

I played a LG Angel and Regill and my character got along swimmingly. Just Lawbros knowing that they are there to do a job and not to waffle on about extraneous concepts that are born from a life of peace, where preference is king.

>>3856872 (OP)
>He hasn't even met the worst character yet

>>3856872 (OP)
>If anyone feels similarly about this style of writing, can you point me to games that are well-written?
Old games didn't have this problem, not because they focused on having good writing, but because they didn't focus on writing.

>good writing?
>bad writing?
>well written games?
You want a more serious tone. There.

>>3857643
HOLY SHIT BASED HE'S OWNING SOSIEL EPIC STYLE WITH FACTS AND LOGIC
>that's 99% of their interactions
kino kino kino 11/10 writing I love it when characters act like retards to make someone else look cool!

>>3856875
Agreed on pillars. I wanted to like the second one but I couldn't finish it. I can't even put my finger on why I didn't like it. I feel like I just got bored with it.

>>3857677
You may be right. But I feel there's more to my complaint than just the humorous tone the game has. A game can be funny without being grating. But it's that Borderland-esque humor where everything is quirky and snarky and insincere. It's less that the game is using jokes as levity and more like the game is just making fun of its world, its plot, and you as the player

>>3857679
damn, that's some major butthurt.

>>3857679
>I love it when characters act like retards to make someone else look cool
Based fellow bg3 enjoying sister

>>3857679
It's not just other characters but your own character too
>only way to recruit the sunrise crusaders is to act goody two shoes and cry about how evil Regill is
>even though they're crusaders and they belong to you because you're the crusade commander
>but the lawful option is to suck up to him and let him take care of them for some reason
So if you, say, play a LE character, you either suck Hellknight cock (which the game clearly expects you to do) or you suddenly act like a moralfag.

>>3857679
The fits of apoplexy that Kreia caused in you must've been a sight, lol, if this bothers you so much.

>>3857752
>But I feel there's more to my complaint
Who wouldn't want to think their complaint matters
>A game can be funny without being grating.
You would allow some amounts of a specific type of humour applied in certain ways

Oh and the game should be aware of what mood you're in, and not joke around when Karen is cranky.

>>3857643
Hey, I like Regill as much as the next volcel, but you have to admit this is the high point that throws the rest of the game into stark quirk chungus relief.

Also it is just a one off line, you could have had a lot more here.
Then there is the whole 'let's test KC by futzing around with conning him into seductive demon setups intead of being serious about killing them like we usually are'
It's just too schizo feeling.

>>3857923
Only 1 character that breaks 4th walls per setting, it really isn't hard.

LOTR: Tom Bombadil
Weis/Hickman: Zifnab/Fizban
Skyrim: Ma'iq the Liar
Borderlands could have stuck to Tiny Tina OR Toruge OR Handsome Jack and been aces the entire time. Claptrap sucks ass, always has. He's too omnipresent.
If you can't make second breakfast funny, your worldbuilding sucks.

>>3858344
>Tom Bombadil
He filtered me every time

>>3857923
>Oh and the game should be aware of what mood you're in, and not joke around when Karen is cranky.
Really humor is a way to baseline away from tension, either to lead up to it, or have a break from it. Second breakfast happened right before one of the most gripping scenes of near death and ringwraith terror in LOTR.

It's more like, the game should set the mood in the first place, that's what good writing/ludokino is meant to do.

>>3858346
>the most gripping scenes of near death and ringwraith terror in LOTR.
>set the mood in the first place, that's what good writing/ludokino is meant to do.
Will I be in the mood for gripping terror if I go read it right now?

>>3856872 (OP)
one look at the companion rooster is enough to see it as the modern lol random experience
not for me

ITT: discord raiders and election tourists trash one of the few games keeping CRPGs relevant

>>3858524
No modding tools for custom campaigns make it irrelevant.
Why make so many classes and races and put them into a thing which makes OG Neverwinter's campaign feel like Casablanca.

>>3856971
The main poblem with DOS2 writing was a narrator.

>paladin trades away her family's holy sword for a gender-swap potion for her partner
>this happens in the dangerous lands of the Worldwound full of demons and shit
kill it with fire

>>3858585
Just wait until you learn about crashed alien ships, IRL Ancient Egyptian pantheon migrating to Golarion or dimension hopping Rasputin.

>>3858586
you missed the point there champ

>>3858589
Yeah, you are right. Edwin did it better.

>>3858585
>>3858586
This is literally just normal pathfinder stuff.

>>3858595
into the trash it goes then

>>3858600
>he cares about realism
Why are you playing video games in the first place?

>>3858612
lmao it's called having standards

>>3858612
By that standard then anything can be allowed in a game no matter the context. Why didn't Joel just fly up into the sky and instant transmission straight for the cure? Why didn't Geralt spawn a Bugatti and input Ciri's headchip co-ordinates instead of travelling across the country?

I mean who cares about realism it's just a game

>>3858612
nta but it's not about "realism"
it's about the world feeling coherent

>>3858640
>>3858646

Exactly. The world doesn't have to be a 1:1 with us but it needs to make sense within its own rules or else there's no reason to care about anything because a deus ex machina can happen and you can't get annoyed by it because "uhm who cares it doesn't have to be realistic"

>>3858585
Yeah, this writing where it's entirely based on the ideals of a modern person who hasn't ever faced real danger. "Look I'm selling an heirloom because I love so deeply", rather than "I need this weapon to protect my loved ones and their psychological comfort is less important to me than their life". Writer who lacks imagination, basically, they can't inhabit the world they write in. Pathfinder as a setting and tabletop players in general are full of that.

>>3858696
>this writing where it's entirely based on the ideals of a modern person who hasn't ever faced real danger
This is pretty much all modern cRPGs. It’s all projection.

>>3858716
It's sad, really, so many people who act as if they like RPGs, but aren't able to roleplay, they can't put themselves in the shoes of another using their imagination. It's like the pseudo-moralfagging brainwashing they get from entertainment media has permanently twisted them.

The only good written game you'll find that I can remember is Planescape Torment

>>3858825
Betrayal at Krondor is commonly accepted as well written.

>>3858585
Was she a paladin at the time? I thought that happened long before they ever arrived in the Worldwound, and selling the sword was a major part of Irabeth's personal development which would eventually see her become a paladin later, though you might have to read the AP to get that bit of story.
>>3858586
Golarion is a kitchen sink. It's not supposed to be "a real world". It's a setting where games take place. It exists only to provide a reliable framework for the mechanics to interact with. It's not a simulation. It's not supposed to be interpreted as realistic, it's only supposed to support suspension of disbelief for those who already know they're playing a hyper-fantasy game.

>>3858626
Your "standards" are arbitrary, and evidently maladaptive since it's preventing you enjoying enjoyable things. It turns out that your "standards" are actually just your personal bigotry and you're unable or unwilling to admit that.
Dumbass. Well, since you have absolutely zero reason to be in this thread, since we're discussing a game you have no interest in, I guess that's the last we'll be hearing from you. Bye, Felicia.

>>3858825
Uhhh.... I mean, it's not the worst written game I've ever seen. But I found it to be overbearingly pretentious. Huffing its own farts. Like a twenty five year old horse girl reading her own erotic poetry in front of the class.
Just way to fucking juvenile to be really climb to respectable.

>>3858854
Damn you're seething

>>3858857
>But I found it to be overbearingly pretentious. Huffing its own farts. Like a twenty five year old horse girl reading her own erotic poetry in front of the class.
>Just way to fucking juvenile to be really climb to respectable.
You didn't play it when it came out, and your opinion of it has been tainted by people jerking it off for decades.

>>3858857
As expected, a very poorly written post...

>>3858854
get some taste faggot

>>3858852
nice try but you can find both the scabbard and the actual sword
>Irabeth pawned her sword to pay for your treatment. Treatment for what?
https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Irabeth%27s_Scabbard
https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Solemn_Hour

woke shit with the worst companions in the industry

>>3858825
>PST
lmao WOTR is fanfic tier

>>3858852
>It's not a simulation. It's not supposed to be interpreted as realistic, it's only supposed to support suspension of disbelief for those who already know they're playing a hyper-fantasy game.
What fantasy games have a game world that is more realistic and believable? I like to have a simulation where only the mechanics remind me of being a game. Please don't say fantasy is in itself unrealistic etc.

>>3858997
>What fantasy games have a game world that is more realistic and believable?
Witcher and TES

>>3858997
And Dragon Age Origins

>>3858997
nearly all fantasy settings are internally consistent, otherwise it's not a world but a dump of retarded ideas
even comic book runs don't throw random shit at you

>>3858888
>>3858899
No one has to love the flavor of feces as much as you do. Go enjoy your feces quietly.

>>3858997
Why don't you want to hear that fantasy is in itself unrealistic? Which is it? Do you want immersion or are you ok with your immersion being limited and sometimes broken - for example by mechanics? You can't have it both ways. There is no such thing as perfect immersion. There can't be. You are aware that you're playing a game. You have to intentionally choose to suspend your own disbelief. It has to come from within you.
But even just for the sake of argument, as a hypothetical, even if there were some kind of ideal, perfect immersion that would satisfy you... it would be so absolutely personal and specific to YOU that it would not be possible for anyone else to create it for you. So you're still doomed to remain dissatisfied for a completely stupid, inane reason.

What's actually happened is that you're indulging yourself in empty contrarianism for pure ego-masturbation, telling yourself that you're so fucking sophisticated and you have suuuuuch refined taste that you can't possibly enjoy anything. No one is obligated to please you, and especially not when you are determined to remain displeased. Go fucking fix yourself. Get in therapy. And shut the fuck up. God damn.

>>3859027
A very poorly written insult, as expected...

>>3859033
fantasy is not unrealistic. you can ask yourself what would be believable effects if magic and gods exist. e.g. morrowind has a nice immersive game world.

but whatever. you can go play turn-based bing bing wahoo.

>>3859033
>the same old "those writers aren't talentless hacks you just hate fun"
Tell that to Tolkien who invented new languages just for his setting, but could still get away with shit like demigod Tom Bombadil dancing around being goofy.

>>3859033
>You have to intentionally choose to suspend your own disbelief. It has to come from within you.
You can see no connections between the verisimilitude and internal consistency of a work of fiction, and its ability to immerse the player without breaking their suspension of disbelief?

>>3859039
A very poorly written repetition. Complete even with ellipses. You can't make this shit up.

Hilarious how these autists are having a meltdown about realism when the original point was that trannoids are just disgusting

>>3859089
The point wasn't just that, it was also that it was a clear case of modern writers projecting their garbage politics into fantasy, which directly harms immersion and suspension of disbelief.

>>3856872 (OP)
Can't go wrong with the classics, BGTrilogy, PST, Arcanum. Even The Witcher 1(one).
My main recommendation would be Mask of the Betrayer though, especially if you play an evil character. You can safely skip the mediocre base game (read synopsis, it sounds better than it actually is).

WOTR's story is like parody of the genre and an excellent pleb detector.

Would you believe that Owlcats take on the campaign is actually quite good compared to the original version?

>>3859099
NWN 2 base game was good
It was considered mediocre at the time, because people compared it to the masterpieces
But compared to today's slop it's a mighty fine game

>>3856872 (OP)
Yeah i found the writing to be a whole mixed bag in this game, on one hand it does have some moments that it pops off and some of the characters can be interesting to explore and relate to, BUT there is too much fat to trim, unironically the game biggest sin is its bloat, its bloat in gameplay, in rpg mechanics, in story, in trash mobs, in pacing, its bloatfest: the game.

Speaking back on the writing i thought they raised the stakes too quickly, and its rushed, rushed pacing created this situation where i didn't give a single flying fuck about the world and what was happening because the game wants to bombard me with high stakes storytelling without earning it first by building it up, and speaking of characters, there is like 12 possible companions, and more than half of them are underdeveloped halfbaked and have shallow personality and arc.
The mythic paths have the same problem, some are given the care and attention and some are neglected and treated like an afterthought.

Owlcat should've just fixed the game with updates instead of shitting out DLC after DLC but their dumb fans only care about size, for them quantity is king. The game still has thousands of bugs till this day ffs

>>3858585
The funny thing is that an Elixir of Sex Shifting is 2,250 gold. It's not some unique or impossibly rare thing. It is well within the average wealth of a 3rd level PC or a 5th level NPC. Literally all Irabeth had to do is to tackle a couple low-level dungeons and she could easily afford it. Hell they could even find a sympathetic wizard who could just polymorph Anevia for a lesser price or even for free. All the sword plot does is to make Irabeth look like an impulsive retard.
That's what I find funny about all of these woke millenial settings, they want to write compelling stories about the struggles of minorities but they also make being a minority in their world completely pedestrian, which is utterly self-defeating. Oh cool, you're a tranny in a world where being a tranny is a commonly accepted thing and there is relatively easy to access (for an adventurer) magic that straight up turns you into the opposite biological sex. Wow, so fucking tragic. Why am I supposed to care again?

>>3859290
is it really?
I never understood how gold works in these settings.
A peasants wage is like 1 silver a day, so in today's money 2K gold is like 2 mil.
If you convert the gold to Earth gold and dollars, it's still around 2 mil.

>>3859321
Yes, D&D economy is all kinds of fucked and even level 1 adventurers are insanely wealthy compared to regular people. But still, if you have a paladin and a rogue with character levels then by rules attaining 2k gold shouldn't take too long, definitely not long enough to justify parting with a treasured heirloom.

>>3859330
>implying troons care about such things as "families" or "heirlooms"

>>3859330
That only applies to PCs. They're NPCs on government wages.

>>3859330
>But still, if you have a paladin and a rogue with character levels then by rules attaining 2k gold shouldn't take too long
Excess Funds
All of a paladin's excess funds must be forfeited. This includes all money remaining after he pays his regular expenses, as well as any money not specifically allocated to a savings fund for building a stronghold. He may keep a contingency fund equal to two or three times his normal monthly budget (including maintenance costs and employee salaries for his stronghold) but no more. He may not stockpile money to buy gifts, leave to his heirs, or pay a friend's expenses.
Tithing
A paladin must give 10% of all his income to a lawful good institution. This 10% is called a tithe. In most cases, a paladin tithes to his church or other religious organization. If he doesn't belong to a church or operates independently (as in the case of the Expatriate character kit described in Chapter 4), he may designate any lawful good organization, such as a hospital or university, as the recipient of his tithes. A paladin has no say in how his tithes are spent, though the money typically goes towards the institution's maintenance, recruitment, equipment, and education costs. A paladin usually tithes to the same institution for his entire career.
A paladin's first tithe usually comes out of his starting funds of 5d4 x 10 gp. After that, he must tithe from all sources of income, including rewards, treasure, wages, and profits generated from his stronghold. When he acquires a gem or magical item, he owes his designated institution 10% of the item's value (as determined by the DM), payable at the earliest opportunity. If he finds a diamond worth 500 gp, he owes 50 gp; if the gem is lost or stolen, he still owes 50 gp (the institution isn't penalized for the paladin's carelessness). Tithes are due only on funds the paladin actually claims for himself. If he walks away from a
treasure or refuses a reward, no tithes are necessary.

>>3859673
>and a rogue

>>3859673
That doesn't sound like Pathfinder

>>3859679
How it started: Sell your cloak, buy a sword
How it’s going: Sell your sword, buy tranny pills

Found the VA behind your goddess, Camelliafags. She's pretty attractive ngl and a singer on top of that. Seems pretty new to the whole VA thing though.

>>3856872 (OP)
>child's toy has goosebumps tier writing

>>3859727
>mfw she just wants to close the worldwound
>mfw she makes you a little bone necklace charm and hides it in your backpack in the abyss and get all embarrassed when you notice

>>3859751
>>>/soc/
>>>/facebook/
>>>/reddit/

>>3858696
Except they don't need, *that* weapon.

Their religion views not helping your companions where possible as a grave sin, and places no inherent value into your weapon. It is a tool, the thing you will use to do the will of Iomedae. Anything can be that tool.

>>3859843
Absolute sophistry. This is also contemporary nonsense that comes from viewing faith as inherently impractical and bound in magical thinking. This "valueless" weapon is literally a magical weapon that helps her enact the will of Iomedae and protect her companions from actual walking evil and demons and undead, which can be passed down to others to aid them as well. There's really no need to contort yourself to defend this particular bit of garbage, anon, not everything has to be good in a game you like.

>>3859859
The sword was expensive an expensive heirloom, that doesn't mean it was anything special for combat use. Obviously if she was selling her only good weapon that would be an issue.

>>3859860
Ah, I see your confusion, anon, you find the sword in the game. It's +2, Cold Iron, Evil Outsider Bane. Pretty damn good sword, it is not a piece of jewelry or a mantelpiece item.

>>3859862
I actually forgot it was that good. That is egregious then yes.

>>3859863
Yeah, if it had been a ceremonial sword, I wouldn't have a thing to say about it.

>>3859859
>sophistry
Whats the fallacy that has so offended you?

>>3859859
>contemporary nonsense that comes from viewing faith as inherently impractical and bound in magical thinking
Valuing a family relic that isnt more useful to you than any other sword, over a magical aid for a companion is impractical. To their religion being able to sell something to help another is a moral ought. Oddly it is not understood by you because it isn't following a modern mainstream moral view.

You have failed to address the point. *That* sword was useful in its ability to help their companions by being sold, in a way it couldn't by being used. TO the degree its use would have done so, any other sword does just as well in the hands of a high level paladin.

>>3856878
Second one is very open actually, the design reminded me of New Vegas a lot, makes sense since it was Sawyer.

>>3859859
Doesn't Iomedae's paladin code literally have a line about how your sword is just a tool and you shouldn't cling to it too hard? I remember Seelah saying something like that.

>>3859873
>a family relic that isnt more useful to you than any other sword
Objectively false, it's specifically good against demons in a way that many other swords in the game aren't.
>being able to sell something to help another is a moral ought
In times of peace, in a land without demons? Sure. But a magical sword, in the hands of a warrior, has a purpose which money alone cannot meet.
>Oddly it is not understood by you because it isn't following a modern mainstream moral view
No, it's because I'm aware that many religious people are also practical and understand that they exist in a world.
> *That* sword was useful in its ability to help their companions by being sold, in a way it couldn't by being used
Selling the sword prevents it from being used for its god given purpose, slaying demons.
>any other sword does just as well in the hands of a high level paladin
Then give the sword to a non-paladin. That's saving multiple lives and helping the fight against the Worldwound. Why was it sold to help one paladin's lover a moral good?

>>3859883
>Then give the sword to a non-paladin.
Isn't that generally what you'd expect to happen when you sell a sword?

>>3859883
>it's specifically good against demons in a way that many other swords in the game aren't.
The story directly tells you that sword was not uniquely useful to her.

The story says you are wrong, please play the game.

>Selling the sword prevents it from being used for its god given purpose
Again, the values of this person is the sword has no inherent value, its purpose is a tool. And they directly say they can get any other sword just as good.

This sword is valued beyond its pratical use.

>Why was it sold to help one paladin's lover a moral good?
Because doing that is a direct value given to them by a god, they are not to abandon a companion in need. They can still help others with another sword, the game says this.

Complain you don't like that that is how it is i guess, but if the game says you are wrong, then suck it up buttercup.

>>3859879
Yes

>>3859885
Not necessarily in the hands of good people, no. Look where you find it.
>>3859886
>The story directly tells you that sword was not uniquely useful to her.
The stats directly tell me that it is useful for the regional issue. Play the game.
>Again, the values of this person is the sword has no inherent value, its purpose is a tool
A tool used to do a job has inherent value as a tool with objective qualities. You can't easily chop a tree with a dull axe. You can't easily kill a monster weak to cold-iron with a steel sword.
>And they directly say they can get any other sword just as good.
Yet these kinds of swords aren't lying around. As my party learned in the beginning of the game, while trying to equip themselves to face a omnipresent threat of the entire region.
>This sword is valued beyond its pratical use.
Its practical use is of more value. Like you said its a tool.
>Complain you don't like that that is how it is i guess, but if the game says you are wrong, then suck it up buttercup.
lmao, the writer is who I'm complaining about, anon. Of course, they bake in weak justifications. If your entire argument is "the game says it's right, so there", there's no point in discussing anything. The idea is to use your imagination to inhabit this world.

Fanboys are hilarious.

>>3859892
>The stats directly tell me
That you're a fool. The story tells you they can get by with any other sword.

You might as well argue getting stabbed can't kill people because of hit points. It's abusrd, you don't consistnatly belive this.

>Its practical use is of more value.
The game says you are wrong. Keep your fanfiction to wattpad

>. If your entire argument is "the game says it's right, so there
You want to use in-universe reasons for why the story is wrong. That is your argument, and it is wrong. Of course it is wrong because the writers have defined you as wrong, thats the nature of fiction.

There's nothing impossible about a sword who's value in gold exceeds it's value as a sword. It's not illogical, its not unreasonable, it's not out of place, you just dont like it because it twists your panties for no reason.

>>3859895
Anything I could respond with isn't as damning to your argument as this post in and of itself.

>>3859897
I accept your concession on the merits. Feel free to retreat into futher childlike bleating

I just view that kind of idealist writing to be part of the classical RPG "vibe." I roll my eyes at it but I tolerate it.

Last game I played had like three separate occasions at the end of the game where the entire party turned to me to praise me for making all of the right choices, similar feel

>>3859895
>these spelling errors
>nonsensical defenses
>copious butthurt
actual owlcat writer detected

>>3859902
how is it "idealist"? do you even follow the argument?

it's hilarious this wasn't derided for its writing, that's the only interesting thing about this game

>>3858825
Disco Elysium.

>>3860355
I was never able to push past the first 5 hours. I found the writing to be unique and funny in the beginning, but after a while the flowery prose and insane dialogue lost its charm and started to feel like a joke that kept getting repeated over and over until it became grating.

It felt less like the game was telling a story and more like the game was just a sandbox to RP an insane dude.

character building is pretty good int this game

>>3859673
>the leftoids putting multiple atheist companions (really annoying on Ember who is a literal saint with basically a goddess in her Empyreal patron, she makes a perfect Angelfire Cleric for example) and removing religion from paladins in 5e are going to push tithes
Yeah, pull the other one, it has got bells on.
This is also from a time when paladins were really "fighter ++" as there was no such thing as feats or even the bonus packages things they started with between 2.5 and 3.0 and you had to roll mega stats to even get lucky and become a paladin in the first place. Balance has been improved a lot, and paladin identity has been neutered a lot by the same token.

>>3857291
You're not wrong but they did at least try to write it properly. If detect alignment/alignment on character bios wasn't a thing along with that stupid necklace that eats a gear slot it could have been more surprising.

>>3857291
>didn't get it
The subversion is you can't fix her in a game themed around redemption.

>>3860835
>game themed around redemption
No it's not

>>3860839
It's one of the major themes.

>>3860841
>it's the theme
>well actually, it's ONE OF the themes
Yeah thought so. Like half the mythic paths are evil, then there's one lawtistic mythic path that rejects redemption, both the good mythic paths that support it have sub-paths against it, and there are npcs like Staunton that never get redeemed (no time travel doesn't count) or the main villain of the game sticking to being a cunt to the end with the sole exception of GD

>>3860865
>ackshually
Every single companion has something to do with redemption, anon. Jesus, you're dumb.

>>3856872 (OP)
Yeah people who praise it for the story are legit low IQ or ESL. I just skip shit and skim. The worst sin of the game is the stat bloat. Just fucking terrible. The uninspired encounters with terrible AI are another thing.

BG3 walks over this shit so hard just with the goblin encounters.

>>3860898
Ah yes. Regill's redemption, who could ever forget it.

>>3860865
>en there's one lawtistic mythic path that rejects redemption, both the good mythic paths that support it have sub-paths against it, and there are npcs like Staunton that never get redeemed
It's funny how you don't realize that a failed or impossible redemption or becoming irredeemable is still about redemption. It can't be thematically about redemption without choices.
>>3860914
You redeem his faith in the ability of non-Hellknights to fight the Crusade. :)

Could I get some build advice? I like making builds based on Warcraft 3, currently doing a blademaster but my next one I want to go archmage, the summons and elemental spells are pretty straight forward but how the hell do I get an armored horse early on without sacrificing any wizard levels?

>>3860946
Play a sylvan sorcerer instead of a wizard.

>>3860969
I could try, I was thinking maybe I could get a horse through feats and go full wizard but sorcerer might be better, does sorc combine spellbooks with lich?

>>3860991
yes it does
the other options for casters are azata and demon
if you wanna play evil go lich, if you wanna play good go azata
demon is mostly for DC casters, azata is perfect for blasters (or DC)

if you go sylvan sorc azata you will have two OP pets, not just one

>>3861193
If azata gets a pet then maybe wiz 20 azata 10 fits the vibes better specifically for archmage
If I make a kel'thuzad build then maybe witch + lich or something could do.

>>3861203
>wiz 20
wiz 20 is super lame though
all you get is a bonus wizard feat every 5 lvl
if you get the loremaster prestige class ASAP, you gain OP secrets, which can be any spell, cleric, druid or even rogue feats

and fits the archmage vibe better, if you even know some cleric and druid spells

>>3861346
>>3861203
sorry my bad, don't take the loremaster lvls ASAP as I said
rather time them to be able to pick the spell level that you need
e.g. creeping doom for druid is a 7th lvl spell (best druid spell IIRC) so time it so you are able to pick 7th lvl spells

>>3861417
>>3861346
I've started it as a sylvan sorcerer and I want to go aeon but it would be more fun to do a wizard class than can copy scrolls and stuff, I'm not sure how you could do a full int spellcaster that has a horse(that isn't magus) that can also summon elementals and spam blizzard, but if aeon counts towards spellcaster level then maybe I could go arcanist 10 aeon 10 and something else that gets mount feats but still helps my spells too, maybe druid?

>>3861439
Man just give in and sacrifice 1 level of arcanist for gendarme, aeon levels can make up for the capstone anyways.

>>3861439
>I'm not sure how you could do a full int spellcaster that has a horse(that isn't magus) that can also summon elementals and spam blizzard
I told you how, you play azata, which gets a dragon.
Not a horse but you can still ride it.

Aeon does not count for spellcasting and I would advise against it.
It's not a spellcaster prestige class.

The only thing that merges spellbooks is lich for arcane casters and angel for divine.

But azata is just as powerful, maybe even more powerful by the end.

People just go crazy about merging cause it gives you a huge spike at lvl 3 mythic, which is kind of relevant on hard difficulties.

But azata and demon are more powerful, just come fully online a bit later.

If you don't want to play azata then your only option is sylvan sorc and if you really want horse instead of another pet you do what this anon says >>3861463 and pick one level of gendarme or something that gives you access to horse instead of other pets.

but the other pets are better than horse anyway, and you can ride them too,
don't know why you are stuck on horse, a dog or wolf is much better and it becomes large at like lvl5 IIRC so you can ride it
but you can't ride it from lvl 1 like you can ride a horse that's the only difference
unless you play a halfing or something

>druid
druid is a horrible idea, you don't combine different casters
you can't play a druid-wizard if you wanna play druid you play druid

>>3861532
Well it's more of a cosplay character, wc3 archmage has a horse so I'm trying to do it with a horse but yeah I just respeced to have 1 level of gendarme and I'm going arcanist with the rest, azata actually seems like a better thematical fit considering warcraft lore actually and you are right it works much better with the build in every way then aeon.
Is it worth burning a feat on arcana skill focus for loremaster btw?

>>3861719
you can't take gendarme with arcanist dude
arcanist is a no pet class
pet classes only work with each other to stack lvls to your pet
your horse will be forever stuck to lvl 1 and die in 1 hit

the only arcane casters with pet is sylvan sorc and arcanist magic deceiver(living deity)

if you wanna play magic deceiver you don't need a gendarme lvl
but magic deceiver is different
it's only 2/3 caster but can do some wonky stuff with the spells

it was extrememly busted when I played it when it was released
don't know if it's been nerfed
but it requires a lot of knowledge of the game which you don't have
I don't really recommend it to a new player

>>3861722
So far it's been going okay, if I hit a wall later then I'll bite the bullet and respec into pure arcanist and just ride a summoned spectral horse or something

Is there any way to change the color of the effect around your hands when you cast spells? Some characters and enemies seem to have different colors but it's always gold in my party.

>>3858344
>Hey, I like Regill as much as the next volcel
dunno wh but this was funny to me

Would you guys build Kel'thuzad as a Sylvan Sorc, Sage Sorc or Full Wizard?

>>3862315
Full Wizard probably.

>>3856872 (OP)
and yet all of this is still less gay than BG3's writing and dialogue.

>>3857011
I take BG1&2's writing over the cringe-inducing shitslop we are served nowadays all day every day. it seems like the more elaborate the graphics are in a game the more the writing, characterization and dialogue takes a fucking backseat because they thought "hurdurr now we don't need to make him/her shine through dialogue and shit".

>>3856872 (OP)
>There is this constant insincerity to most of what everyone says mixed with a tonal whiplash of the seriousness of the plot and the way the characters react to it
>It completely robs the moment of any sincerity
>>3856878
>I've wanted to play DOS:2 but from the clips I've seen it seems to have that constant snarky, self-aware sense of humor that I hate in WOTR
That's the core of larian writing. You probably should avoid their games.

I managed to stomach DOS1 only be cooping it with a friend who handled all the dialogue while I robbed everyone blind or did something stupid in the background.

>>3862335
Isn't sorc better for a necromancer since cha helps with summons?
Also if you take sylvan sorc you can get a leopard at lvl1 to be mr bigglesworth.

>>3862315
Sylvan Sorc, for sure. +/- 4 levels of loremaster if you feel like it.
It's arguably the best class for someone new to the game who wants to play a caster. Pets are very useful in wrath, especially so at low levels when you'll still be figuring out how to play.
And you said you wanted a pet, sylvan sorc and arcane rider magus are the only way to do that as an arcane caster.

Going azata gets you a dragon but not until mythic rank three. That's a lot of the game without it and, like I said, early game is when pets are most useful.

If you don't go sylvan sorc then wizard 10 / loremaster 10 is the way to go.

Or, of course, sylvan sorcerer 15/oracle 12/mystic theurge 10/loremaster 3.

buildfags are so creepy. they don't seem human.

>>3862465
The whole game is based around tinkering with builds.

>>3862482
>The whole game is based around tinkering with builds.
It’s really not, you can beat the game on core with simple pure classed builds. But most players of roleplaying games choose to not roleplay nowadays, for whatever reason

>>3862465
They don't have souls.

>>3862464
20 div wizard
best noob caster class, because your spells are not limited
and arguably the best caster in the game
at least up until before deceiver got released

>>3862498
>on core
maybe cause there are 2 difficulties above core?

>>3862464
>sylvan sorcerer 15/oracle 12/mystic theurge 10/loremaster 3
sometimes i think i play a different genre when i see people enjoy such character builds. sure, numbers go up is fun to an extend. but how do you even roleplay such a 'character'? wotr feels so much like the infinity engine games on first glance, but is so different.

>>3862532
>sometimes i think i play a different genre when i see people enjoy such character builds
Same. Nothing breaks my roleplaying like theorycrafting and such. But the genre accommodates all kinds of players.

>>3862528
>uhh I added +20 to all enemy stats and tripled their HP and damage and now I NEED to make retarded builds without a shred of care for roleplaying in my RPG
Skill issue

>>3862546
plenty of OP single class builds anon
unfair is easily beatable with single classes
in fact the OPest builds in the game are single class

most of the weird multis you see with retarded dips are in fact worse than single class

why?
because you delay your spell levels etc. for a theoretical better build at lvl 20
but by then you are a god anyway
you suffer all game just to be technically better when it doesn't even matter

people who make them only make them to promote their channel/website, and people who play them are idiots who just googled "best wotr build for unfair"

but you do realize the game literally has multi-class enabled and things like prestige classes?
do you seriously believe no wiz should take loremaster or something?
it's literally a prestige class for casters...

>>3862532
you do realize mystic theurge is literally a prestige class designed to advance a divine and arcane caster simultaneously?
you can't even play it without lvling 2 different caster classes simultaneously?

seems like you people have an issue with the game itself, rather than the players

why you can't imagine someone in a world of magic who chose to pursue 2 types of magic?

you have never heard of people IRL who pursue two subjects and even combine them?
in fact there are fields in science where only a person with a double background can excel.

>>3862575
>why can't you imagine a berserker who starts studying magic as soon as he hits level 9 as he gains a bonus to HP and THACO
Peak roleplaying

>>3862609
never liked that build
always preferred f/m multi

but to defend it, he switched as soon as he became a "grandmaster" at his weapon, as he felt he had nothing to gain anymore

maybe you don't like the idea of a berzerker becoming a spellcaster but remember that modern editions have bloodragers and shit

sadly in BG trilogy you can't multi into a sorc, which would make more sense for a barbarian type, but still this build would be even more OP, since sorc is strictly superior to wizard in these games

>>3862609
And btw there is literally a build called fighter-mage-thief and fighter-mage-cleric in these games
I'm sure you would find it horrible from an RP perspective

like I said you have an issue with the game and the underlying system itself, no the players

>>3862609
It actually makes sense in BG1 and 2. Your intelligent berserker is captured and tortured by a mage and so vows to gain mastery of magic.

>>3862679
>but to defend it
Yes you can come up with reasoning for literally everything, big whoop

>after gaining all the good spells, the cleric tripped on a negronomicon

>>3862685
yeah, Imoen pretty much did that too, didn't she?

I can imagine these people seething at everyone in this list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_and_entertainers_with_advanced_degrees

How dare you be an artist AND a scientist?
That's illegal!
You are living life wrong!
You should only master one single thing!

Or people like in picrel

>>3862688
you are completely missing the point
fighter-mage-cleric and is not a dual class
it's a multiclass available at character creation

It's a class created by motherfucking Gygax himself.
You just don't like DnD mate.

>>3862609
>i hit with axe but axe no work now i hit with book

Good RPG play is justifying what you want to do as what your character wants to do in such a way as no one at the table can deny it. Time honored tradition.

>>3862709
funny how everyone portrays barbarians as le epic dumberino, when the barbarian archetype, Conan, is anything but
he does hate wizards though

The thing is that you can't dual-class into a mage in 2nd edition unless your character has 17 INT. So, the problem is with stat rolling being too free.

>>3862711
it's totally different in a table though than in video games
in a table you are playing with people, you gotta be respectful
everyone wants to be the uber-special snowflake
allowing others to express themselves and "taking one for the team" to keep things leveled is good form
you don't really need that hard-to-justify dip if everyone else is playing simplistic characters
then again if everyone is playing meta-characters than you would be a fool to play an under-powered one
maybe that's not the table for you, if your priorities are different
it's a social game not your personal fantasy

but in a single player game it's just you vs pixels
and many people in that scenario just want to live the ultimate power fantasy
judging how others play vs pixels is idiotic

>>3862702
>you are completely missing the point
No, I'm pointing out that any powergaming can be excused, it's just contrived.

Do what you want, no need to tell me how your fighter cleric mage came to be.
>me mum was fighter and me pa was mage and me uncle was in monastery
>but me introvert so solo the game
>sometime good sometime bad
>depend on reward
Riveting

>>3862720
>judging how others play vs pixels is idiotic
I agree with that. But, another time honored tradition is mocking what other people say and how they do things on the internet. The kitchen must be hot.

>>3862453
You can just take a cat familiar for mr bigglesworth.

>>3862742
you still don't get it do you?

fighter-mage-cleric is not some powergaming combination
you don't dual into it
you don't mix and match
it is a base class
it is in the base game
you can pick it at lvl 1 as an elf or half-elf only

you don't need excuses to play it any more than you need a base fighter
it is a base class just like a base fighter

Gary Gygax designed this class
It is in the ADnD handbook along with fighter-mage-thief and even fighter-mage-druid

If you are against fighter-mage-clerics you are literally against the way the creator of DnD envisioned this game

You don't actually like DnD.
You like a version of DnD which you have personally conjured up and hate people who play the game as it is.

>>3862812
Maybe Gygax made a mistake.

>>3862814
I'm sure you know better
I'm sure your imagination is more "correct" than his
Cause there are "rules" in imagination, you shouldn't imagine "too" hard or people might get offended by your imagining
And the only thing worse than offending people is offending pixels

>>3862818
Your DM's opinion is more important that Gygax's. Even Gygax would agree.

>>3862818
>I'm sure you know better
>I'm sure your imagination is more "correct" than his
I'm glad we agree.

>>3862821
well go make your own game then

>>3862819
never claimed otherwise
but in CRPGs your DM is the devs

>>3862822
Too much work...

>>3862812
>fighter-mage-cleric is not some powergaming combination
It's three (3) roles in one.

Fuck it, make it fighter-mage-cleric-thief. Who needs a party in this game of playing roles

>you are literally against the way the creator of DnD envisioned this game
Yes I am

>>3862825
>work
yeah that's the difference I guess
to him imagining wasn't work
it was fun

>>3862828
A F/M/C as Gygax intended sucks though. Only a jackass would use them outside of a solo game because they lag behind in levels so much. There's nothing worse than not being able to use higher level spells. It only really works in vidya when you play solo.

>>3862829
It's not the imagining that's the work, illiterate-san. I'm imagining a better game right now.

>>3862836
>It only really works in vidya
It just so happens we're on a vidya discussion board

>>3862828
>Who needs a party in this game of playing roles
You realize DnD can be played one on one right?

Yes not everything needs to be balanced, just like life isn't balanced.
It was just his imagination.
Maybe only elves could do such a thing, cause only elves had the culture and the longevity to support it. (traditionally fighter mages in the setting)

It was just his imagination.

Sure go ahead and disallow it at your table, if you think its detrimental to the fun, which it probably is.
But CRPGs are single player games, no need to restrict it there.

And no need to restrict in the world.
Maybe you disallow your party from being fmcs but there are such NPCs.

And yes traditionally elves were OP, even from Tolkien's setting.
They are better than humans every single way, and live forever.
Why shouldn't an elf be capable of such a feat in such a setting?

But nooooo an elf needs to be balanced with a troglodyte cause it hurts my feefees cause I'm not an elf and I need to dumb everything down to my lvl cause I can't imagine something better than me existing.
Pathetic.

>>3862838
>It only really works in vidya
Almost quoted me, there, anon. Keep at it.
>when you play solo
Playing solo is gay as fuck.

>>3862838
but... but... think of the pixels!

>>3862840
>And yes traditionally elves were OP, even from Tolkien's setting.
Elves in Gygax era D&D sucked. Harsh level limits and no resurrection.

I think people don't realize that BG1 and 2 are homebrewed by Bioware. The only real AD&D games are the Goldbox games.

>>3862840
You can play fighter/mage/thief/cleric/druid/bard if you want

But don't give me that "i'm not powergaming!!" bs

>>3862846
>fighter/mage/thief/cleric/druid/bard
that isn't powergaming. that shit would suck. you're falling for buildfaggot spreadsheet hero memes. these things they create don't actually play that well most of the time.

>>3862849
>>3862846
exactly
these dudes don't get it cause they never played a CRPG on unfair difficulties

all these "crazy builds" you see are memes
they are handicapped 99% of the game only to achieve a marginal improvement on the last 1%, where everyone is a god anyway
they are made by "content creators" who are fishing for views
no multiclass beats being able to cast a higher lvl of spells, except when you are lvl 20 with max spells already

single class is usually the way to go, and single class are way more powerful from the beginning to the end, except in very specific cases and usually reasonable multiclassing

they are bitching and crying for nothing

single player magic deceiver is the most absurd thing in the game
any single class arcane caster is absurd, with single class div wizard on top
but god forbid a wizard becomes a loremaster?
like a prestige literally designed for wizards?
cause a wizard interested in lore is absurd?
any divine caster + angel is absurd
bloodragers, shifters, kineticists all top notch...
etc etc
the differences between them are marginal and alll these lists A+ vs SS etc, are done by autists with nothing better to do

they cry for nothing
like yeah if I have a party of melees I'm gonna get a skald to support them
what's so unbelievable about that?
like in a world where magic is known and documented and its effects, why would a party of adventurers hire a court poet instead of a skald when almost everyone is melee?
they KNOW skald is good support for melee
why would they hire a fashion designer for the role of a programmer?

cause it's le quirky and therefore le RP thing to do...

>Buy the ultra mega deluxe edition.
>Spend two hours making my character.
>Immediately quit and don't touch the game for months.
>They release a new DLC that adds to the ending slides.
>Should have bought the ultra mega super deluxe edtion.
I don't think I'm every going to get around to playing this shit.

>>3862855
>exactly
>these dudes don't get it cause they never played a CRPG on unfair difficulties
>all these "crazy builds" you see are memes
>they are handicapped 99% of the game only to achieve a marginal improvement on the last 1%, where everyone is a god anyway
>they are made by "content creators" who are fishing for views
>no multiclass beats being able to cast a higher lvl of spells, except when you are lvl 20 with max spells already
>single class is usually the way to go, and single class are way more powerful from the beginning to the end, except in very specific cases and usually reasonable multiclassing
>they are bitching and crying for nothing
>single player magic deceiver is the most absurd thing in the game
>any single class arcane caster is absurd, with single class div wizard on top
>but god forbid a wizard becomes a loremaster?
>like a prestige literally designed for wizards?
>cause a wizard interested in lore is absurd?
>any divine caster + angel is absurd
>bloodragers, shifters, kineticists all top notch...
>etc etc
>the differences between them are marginal and alll these lists A+ vs SS etc, are done by autists with nothing better to do
>they cry for nothing
>like yeah if I have a party of melees I'm gonna get a skald to support them
>what's so unbelievable about that?
>like in a world where magic is known and documented and its effects, why would a party of adventurers hire a court poet instead of a skald when almost everyone is melee?
>they KNOW skald is good support for melee
>why would they hire a fashion designer for the role of a programmer?
>cause it's le quirky and therefore le RP thing to do..
You're free to powergame bro, you don't need my permission

>>3862575
> its part of the rules
> modern day science
Yes, all valid opinions. I just can't envision a sylvan sorcerer 15/oracle 12/mystic theurge 10/loremaster 3 being part of the following in lord of the rings.

>>3862844
They weren't that bad. Level ranges were much lower back then, so the level limits aren't nearly as severe as they look from the perspective of 2E and onwards. They could also multiclass, which was less annoying to deal with than human dual-classing.

>>3863041
>I just can't envision a sylvan sorcerer 15/oracle 12/mystic theurge 10/loremaster 3 being part of the following in lord of the rings.
Literally just Merlin but instead of being empowered by infernal blood and saved by God through baptism, he's empowered by fey blood and saved by his witch-mother through creepy rituals.

>>3863041
LOTR is not DnD though

LOTR is a low magic setting
There's like 5 wizards in the whole world
99.99% have never even seen magic
Magic items are extremely rare

DnD is high magic, every other dude is a wizard or an adventurer with a bunch of OP magic items

And even in that world Gandalf is an Uber swordsman and even dual wields it with a staff.

>>3863041
>>3863192
Now I think maybe you dislike high magic and I agree.
I mean I prefer not as low as LOTR, but more mid where a 10 lvl wizard is an extremely exceptional rarity.
DnD has changed a lot from how it was originally designed.
Every bartender is a retired lvl 20 adventurer which makes magic and accomplishments into something very mundane.

Again my point is what all of you guys are hating are not the players but the game itself.

>>3863192
The term "low magic" and "high magic" are not very applicable to literature. LotR isn't "low magic". It's a profoundly magical setting. Literally everything about that world - EVERYTHING - is because of magic. Evil is an objective and supernatural quality of things, and not just because the original evil endowed all of creation with some fraction of his own soul to pervert and corrupt it with evil.
There are many characters that the protagonists meet who are overtly magical and who perform overtly magical feats - and not just the wizards. Galadriel and Elrond, for example. The Witch King Of Angmar (the nazgul leader) for another example. There are supernatural monsters crawling all over the place (like Shelob, the grave wights / wraiths at weathertop, the trolls that turn to stone in sunlight, the sapient worgs and spiders in the Murkwood, the Ents, the Balrogs, etc. etc.). Middle Earth is not a "low magic" place. At all.

You're conflating multiple concepts together there. What you mean to say is that magic in the LotR is not presented as tacky combat magic like throwing around fireballs (though Gandalf literally does *exactly that* multiple times...).

That's because LotR isn't about how being a magical superhero is fun. It's a myth constructed in the classical style: it's about the profound meaning of what it is to be a good person. It's not about how lords and sorcerers are powerful. It's about how powerful an ordinary person just trying to live quietly and comfortably is by comparison. "Magical items" are not there to give +1 damage. They're magical because the thing has a meaning and a purpose for the myth, not the other way around.

D&D is not like that. It's a game about superheroes. It's meant to be goofy meaningless entertainment, not to convey deep memeplexes about cultural values.

>>3862713
Well Conan is more so really high charisma then super smart.

>>3862776
Well if you're taking the lich mythic path I think sorcerer is better anyways cause liches use charisma to calculate their hp and summons also depend on charisma including undead, the leopard is just a plus cause it's a pretty strong frontline.

>>3863201
https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/06/gygax-on-conan.html

>>3863202
I'm talking from a strict RP standpoint. Gameplay-wise you're correct.

>>3863192
>LOTR is not DnD though
DnD is just the engine. Forgotten Realms is a high-magic setting. But there is Greyhawk, which is a more grounded setting where magic is more rare.

Also, ignoring the mythology based background of lotr, and focusing on appearance: the fellowship consists of a mage, an elf ranger, a dwarf warrior, human fighters and hobbit/halfling rogues/fighters. you can emulate the adventure aspect in DnD just fine. i can do it with icewind dale for example.

>>3863067
Not being able to be raised alone made them trash unless you played hugbox dungeons. But, knowing that your character had a lower limit would dampen the joy of progression, I'm sure many people homebrewed that shit away. Demihumans were never better than humans in Gygax's games, by design.

>>3863197
>superheroes
Please don't bring in your gay capeshit terms. It's just about heroes.

>>3862532
>Your family has been touched by the Fey, and in your case this manifests as minor supernatural powers. You can speak to animals and cast a single arcane spell thrice per day.
>As you come face to face with Deskari and Kenabres burns around you, you're pushed far beyond your normal limits and discover you have more potential than you ever imagined. As you learn from your experience, your spellcasting ability increases and the animal companion you have befriended gains more base attack bonus.
>You come to absorb the essence of an angel, and discover that you already held the essence of a demon. These motes of greater powers interact unpredictably with your own power, and surge as the ability to cast divine spells as you awaken as an oracle.
>Your two modes of spellcasting are fundamentally incompatible, but you stubbornly refuse to pick one, and push yourself to master both.
>Still stubborn, you renounce the influence of higher beings and rely on your own power to see the Worldwound closed. Some of their power remains, raising your level cap to 40, but your soul is your own.
>Also you read some books along the way and maybe had some long chats with that ancient elf who keeps hanging around.
It's not that weird. Honestly a fairly basic Legend path Mystic Theurge build.

>>3863192
In DnD terms Gandalf isn't even a wizard. All his "spells" are either natural spell-like abilities, granted by magic items, gunpowder, or literal divine intervention.

>>3856872 (OP)
If you think the writing in the game is bad, try playing the actual tabletop module, and sadly you’ll quickly find out that the game is a vast improvement compared to the source material.

>>3863278
>Greyhawk, which is a more grounded setting where magic is more rare.
How does that work anyways? Even a level 1 PC is described as being like an action movie hero being capable of taking on half a dozen regular soldiers by themselves, also does the setting place limits on PC casters?

>>3863350
>a level 1 PC is described as being like an action movie hero being capable of taking on half a dozen regular soldiers by themselves
Where?

>>3863299
>not really a wizard
True. Gandalf was a Level 19 Gandalf for most of the Fellowship until he beat the Balrog and levelled up to a Level 20 Gandalf, unlocking his prestige class.

>>3863299
>>3863361
Gandalf was a bard

>>3863365
>bard larping as a wizard
heh

>>3863359
Tiers of play section in the dungeon masters guide for dnd.

>>3863365
Clearly gandalf is a celestial, he doesn't have player levels he only has a CR.

>>3863396
Don't see it.

>>3863413
It says they're set apart from common people and going by stats and in game combat a lvl 1 fighter is basically Jason Bourne.

>>3863413
>heroes, set apart from the common people by natural characteristics
Makes me think of old threads where nerds would stat themselves with 18 INT, when in fact 14 was the highest they could ever hope to be.
Common peasants like us started at 10 with 2 points to buy with. Dumping wisdom and charisma are all we can do to survive.

>>3863510
I mean if 10 is baseline then it should be around 100IQ so 18 would be 180 maybe? I doubt there are any people that smart on 4chan.

>>3863419
It's a leap from local hero to Jason Bourne. Jason Bourne is a highly experienced globetrotting agent with a rep, at least 7th level, I'd say. I think you're confusing yourself. Guards are able to handle level ones, or else they wouldn't be able to be controlled by the DM.

>>3863514
Okay but a level 1 fighter can take out 4 to 8 CR4 guards depending on the build and rolls, that's pretty superhuman and squarely in action hero level stuff I'd say.

>>3863519
Sounds fake.

>>3863512
>Makes me think of old threads where nerds would stat themselves with 18 INT, when in fact 14 was the highest they could ever hope to be.
>Common peasants like us started at 10 with 2 points to buy with. Dumping wisdom and charisma are all we can do to survive.
AD&D "method 1", roll 3d6, produces an approximation of a Gaussian distribution
Mean score is 10.5
An 18 is produced by 1/216 permutations (~0.463%)
This is roughly 2.6 standard deviations, which for a European population, would be an IQ score of ~139, solidly in the genius range (>130 IQ)

>>3863519
>>3863519
Sounds bullshit to me, or a complete failure of the CR system.
A CR4 threat is supposed to be a balanced encounter for an entire level 4 party, one that uses up ~1/4 of their resources including spell slots and HP. If a single level 1 fighter can take out 4-8 CR4 creatures then something is fucked.

>>3863519
>depending on the build and rolls
Depending on the build and rolls a stray cat can party wipe a full level 1 group. It's even more likely than the scenario you presented.

>>3863530
>>3863827
>>3863837
I fucked that up, I meant to write CR1/4 so like trained elite town guards, normal guards being CR1/8

>>3863837
>rolls
Luck is the most powerful stat.

>>3864011
BG3’s dice fetishism made me realize that the d20 system is fundamentally flawed due to its flat distribution, and that a sum of multiple smaller dice is necessary to approximate a normal distribution. Swingy RNG is shit.

>>3856872 (OP)
i couldn't get past the first chapter or whatever of the game because every single party member i encountered was just insufferable. like i've played RPGs with offkilter characters before that are controversial, but every single party member is just unpleasant. they don't have attractive qualities about them. i don't mean physically attractive, but just generally features that draw you to that character for one reason or another. KOTOR2 is probably a good example of this. Bao-Dur talks funny and is kind of boring in terms of classes, but he has history with the Exile so you're drawn to him to learn more about the Mandalorian Wars and the Exile's time as a general. and then there's G0-T0 who is just forced into your party in a really obnoxious manner. every party member in the game feels like G0-T0.

the one that made me quit the game was the furry fox character though. i didn't know she was furry until i saw her being discussed in a thread on /v/, but she was reddit snark incarnate when i met her in her human form. that's when i gave up on the game entirely. it's a shame because the central gimmick of being able to become these super OP classes was something i was really looking forward to.

>>3856888
Rian Johnson?

>>3864028
Isn't that what modifiers are for? Looking online most places have cats with a -4 strength modifier so unless it has enchanted mithril claws it really couldn't damage a lvl1 pc in any way at all.

>>3864032
what frustrates me is you there really isn't an option to be just kind of mean to them, you either suck their dick or tell them to fuck off/kill 'em
Nenio would be much more tolerable of a character if you could call her out or insult her more

>>3864028
Don't you run the risk of too many dice rolls and number counting taking you out of the moment?
I've never played tabletop, though, so I dunno.

>>3864032
>hat made me quit the game was the furry fox character
you are lucky you didn't even know that the first NPC you meet in WOTR is a troon

Easy way to appease powergaming vs RP fags.
>play lvl 20 div wizard (CC/SoD)
the most OP build in the entire game
>either an azata Shadowcaster illusionist for "RP maxxing purposes"
hint: it's the most broken thing in the game
>or a base div wizard who turns into a lich
>even more RP friendly, just a "regular" wizard, who does what regular wizards do and turns into a lich
>no "OP" subclass shenanigans
hint: it's even more broken
>whenever you use meta-gaming knowledge you can just RP as "I foresaw it"
easy win-win

>>3864135
To be fair for most spellcasters multiclassing is not worth it because you want the full spell progression so most caster builds I see are either full 20 levels of something or maybe 1-3 levels of a prestige class like loremaster or winter witch.
Multiclassing really only gets disgusting with martials because there mixing and matching is often better so you end up with armiger 5 / hellknight 5 / ranger 1 / cavalier 1 / fighter 5 / sword saint 3 or something ridiculous like that

>>3856872 (OP)
Is there any way to pause or go to turn-based mode out of combat so I can talk to everyone in the first room? I've never played anything like this, usually NPCs just stand around for you to talk to them and then you have a guy to talk to who progresses the story.

>>3864862
>you end up with armiger 5 / hellknight 5 / ranger 1 / cavalier 1 / fighter 5 / sword saint 3 or something ridiculous like that
I end up with builds like 20 paladin, or 20 cavalier, or 20 two handed fighter. Feels good man.

Should I use a two handerr or dual wield as a ranger?

>>3864862
the two most popular dips (besides loremaster which isn't RP-breaking) are titanfighter 1 lvl to dual wield staves and crossblooded sorc 1lvl so your weird can affect undead
but yeah people mostly take them after they've maxed spell progression
and they are largely irrelevant, you can use another spell besides weird for undead or lose a couple DC for not dual-wielding staves
big fucking deal

I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of RP fags in this thread who think Unfair is only beatable with immersion-breaking multiclassing

It's not
They just don't know how to play
Every single full caster is capable of oneshotting every single enemy on unfair unless it rolls a nat 20
The dips are just the cherry on top, cause why not?
But like I said the most OP arcane caster is div wiz 20, simply because it always goes first no matter what, so you oneshot everything before they even take a turn
Sylvan sorc is also quite OP because the early levels are the worst and you get a pet

But the differences are minor really. All pure casters are ridiculously OP. All you really need is conjuration and corrupter and the game is over. And all MC casters can reach peakDC (enemies pass only on nat20) in any school, using any mythic path.

As for melees, dipping is more easily done but that doesn't mean mono-classes are under-powered or uncapable of dominating unfair
But yeah if you lose nothing(cause your BAB stays the same) and gain something from dipping then most people will say why not?
And there are still melees who don't like dipping at all, like drunken master or are OP mono-class like Sword Saint
And even mutation warrior, the most popular dip, which every melee takes, is quite OP mono-class as well

>>3864862
> armiger 5 / hellknight 5 / ranger 1 / cavalier 1 / fighter 5 / sword saint 3
that being said I too avoid builds like that
it's just ridiculous and unnecessary

but on the other hand moral-fags in this thread will act like a ranger taking a couple fighter levels is the worst sin imaginable
it's not
it's perfectly sensible that a ranger at some point did some formal training and got a few fighter levels

>>3865462
I don't really care about fighter dips. Monk dips are what bothers me.

>>3866186
That, and paladin dips. Just wrong.

>>3866187
That's fine if they take the paladin levels later on or fall as a paladin.
Going for the heckin CHA save/AC stacking by doing a quick dip into paladin/scaled fist is utterly soulless though.

>>3866190
But what if the character is a paladin that loses faith and turns to buddhist teachings to become a monk?

>>3866253
Who of course very conveniently ends up not taking to well to said teachings and goes off to live in the woods, then later decides to hell knights ;^)

>>3866262
Well killing demons must get you good karma right? The Shaolin did have warrior monks and squads after all.

>>3866190
>>3866253
Or some divine being sees your character's moral character and chooses him to be his tool on earth as you level oracle.
Or your exposure to the angelic choir within the wardstone awakens your own celestial blood as you level sorcerer.

Depends on the player's motive. If the player sincerely has an interesting roleplaying concept in mind, and then thinks of ways to mechanically implement that concept, that's one thing. However, we all know that 99% of the time, the player is choosing a certain set of dips because they're mechanically powerful, and then either A. completely ignoring roleplaying whatsoever, or B. at most, creating a paper-thin post-hoc rationalization. For whatever reason, this board is full of RPG players who aren't into roleplaying.

>>3856888
>and the hobby was forever ruined
for people without a brain that want to roll dice, sure

>>3856888
You can still play "enter the dungeon and roll dice" games
You won't though, because having a plot is just more fun than not having one

>>3866719
>There was a time when reading wasn't just for fags. And neither was writing. People wrote books and games. Games with stories, that made you care about whose dungeon it was, and why we were rolling dice. And I believe that time can come again!

>>3866186
monk dips are absolutely retarded
the most powerful martial in the game right now is drunken monk and there is absolutely no contest whatsoever
why dip when you can go full monk?

>>3866190
AC stacking is obsolete since they introduced the mythic armor feats and nerfed stacking from 2 classes
people who still do it are retarded and have missed the memo
looking at outdated neocuck builds
any class is capable of tanking adequately these days
and pets are still a low effort completely viable tank, even for unfair

and in unfair early game, nothing beats a leopard till act 2
why would you mess up your build when a pard can do it better?

>>3866187
however I still believed there is nothing wrong with multiclassing an 11 level paladin or monk for instance
you are far enough to have mastered your class and add some spice in your life

but yeah I never did dips it's just plain stupid, even when they worked
it's the classic example of theory vs practice
in theory you are better, but in practice you are sacrificing early game power for lategame power when everyone is a God anyway
only the utterly stupid would do that

and they are perpetuated by youtuber trash, so they can get more clicks, because 20 lvl fighter with shield and armor focus don't get any clicks

>>3866883
That doesn't mean much, martials are already overpowered. You can literally solo the game as a basic bitch just no-archetype Fighter20.... You can't do that with any pure arcane caster. The balance issues are a bit stark, honestly.

>>3866925
>You can literally solo the game as a basic bitch just no-archetype Fighter20.... You can't do that with any pure arcane caster.
Wildland shaman and sylvan sorc can definitely solo the game. Witch of the veil can solo it on unfair.

>>3856872 (OP)
>first five minutes of the game
>A demon lord decapitates a dragon
Call me a retard, but I believe you're supposed to lead up to that.
Uninstalled and never looked back.

>>3867050
>you're supposed to lead up to that.
>Uninstalled and never looked back.
What did you think of BG3?

>>3867051
Haven't played it.

>>3867050
>wtf why did the big bad attack the town so early on

>>3867052
>Haven't played it.
Probably the right choice

>>3867053
An attack on the town would have been fine, but the fucking demon lord attacking it is jarring from a narrative standpoint.
They could have teased the fucker, instead I get to see two incredibly powerful beings going at it right from the get go.
It's not a Godzilla movie.
I get that Owlcat isn't good at writing, but that was too much, even for me.

>>3867050
>Call me a retard
At least you have that level of insight.

>>3867063
Super mean.

>>3867057
>wtf the big bad made an early showcase of how powerful he is, this never happens in rpgs ever

>>3865459
>Unfair isn't immersion breaking
>Just take these specific feats and most broken monoclasses and dips

Bruh please. It's called Core for a reason and it's stat bloated there too.
Not every character I design wants to have levels in book nerd or the useless pre-reqs.
It's a tabletop that substitutes crpg math and 1000x the fights you'd laboriously dice through IRL vs. a DM creativity to kill you with a level 1 goblin with the right setup at the right time.

>>3866883
>why dip when you can go full monk?
I don't actually monk dip anymore but RP reasons of course.
The only playthrough I'm doing as Drunken Monk is Trickster, he gets beer elementals for god's sake and all the martial power times a million.

I don't even dip, my rules are only one multiclass or prestige for the main character, and maybe one for the romance, try to stay on pure classes for all companions otherwise. And I roll Core + difficulty with as few party members as possible. I just don't like all the overhead of outfitting and lameness of duplicate spells and skill rolls.

I try to stay at maximum of MC, 2 regulars, and one guest star spot when they force me to take someone to enter a map.

3-4 niggas in a row is a pretty fun way to get difficulty out of Core + with extra behaviors and enemies without the stat bloat of Unfair.

>>3865416
>throw axes:
Dual wield
>Most effective "martial fireball" with cleave abuse and/or riding pet:
Two hander

True melee dual wielding in the usual way people think about it (which would be to use two of mismatched underutilized cool weapons PF is rolling in) is really better on a slayer or fighter because they get more feats than rangers and fighters get more effective feats. You need a lot of feats especially if you're thinking about mismatching weapons for unique powers or something, and more feats for personal defense.

Rangers tend to win out for noobs with a free pet and favored enemy stacking for raw flat damage and attack. This tends to work best with a two hander for reach and positioning and cleave and full attacking after moving reasons to create "infinite critting giant aoe martial fireball"

Dual axe throw is no slouch if your pet is going in to tank for you though, even if you want to ride it too. Dex builds make mounted combat better since there are feats to add your mobility skill to the pet defenses. You can still get stunned or mc'd off your pet and cut down if you completely forgo defense on your rider. Dex can be done quite well on a 2hander if you're willing to invest in Elven Curve Blade (sexy) or Estoc (ugly) but these days 2h and strength is fine and easier to build with all the armor feats.

Exception on dual wielding vs two hander is a shield basher which is better than most melee weapon combos on a ranger esp. while riding and will give 2h a run for it's melee money if built right.

Dual axe throw build might make more sense on your ranger if you're going petless, which gives half your favored enemy bonus to everyone on demand with some charge limitations so you can sit in the back and devote less feats to defense and more to archery.

>>3867096
>because they get more feats than rangers and fighters get more effective feats.
rangers are better dual wielders than fighters because rangers get free dual wield with combat style feats
which ignore dex requirements
so you can solely invest in strength for max damage
a fighter will have to invest at least somewhat in dex, which will decrease his damage
also if he doesn't go full dex(which he shouldn't) he will have to weight for the point he gets +dex belts to get the next level of the feat

fighters are not subpar dual wielders by any means, cause they can easily pay the feat tax while other classes can't.
but they are still worse than rangers and slayers who get it for free

>>3867093
skill issue
you can beat unfair, without even using your MC and going monoclass on every companion playing their "intended" builds
in fact you can just solo it with nenio after she comes online with her intended build of illusionist
scroll savant is the most OP mage archetype and mages can solo the game after they come online
camelia and ember will carry the early game with their hexes for hard fights, and nenio (or another caster) with spamming grease
the only thing you really need is something to tank the very early game
most people do it with a leopard cause its the lowest effort, but there are other ways as well, like summons

>>3867093
>I want to play a punching wizard who never casts spells cause RP
>Game is le bad because the maximum difficulty, won't allow me to

>>3867114
>slayers
This is such a retarded class. I can't believe someone thought it was a good idea. Same with "Favored Soul" in 3rd ed.

>want to do scaled fist monk into gold dragon for RP reasons
>locks you to neutral good after attaining it
fucking bs

>>3858825
Actually, the only well written games come from the Legacy of Kain series, but those aren't RPGs.

>>3867212
That's not at all a similar case. Favored Soul was a sloppy mess that failed in fulfilling its stated design goal.
Slayer exists because people very very often mix fighter with rogue. And Slayer accomplishes that very well.

>>3867212
>This is such a retarded class. I can't believe someone thought it was a good idea. Same with "Favored Soul" in 3rd ed.
Why/

Slayer is pretty clearly attempting to represent the assassin archetype and with sneak attack, full BAB and studied target, it does so pretty well.

Favoured soul is all over the place with its class abilities but the core concept of a spontaneous counterpart to the cleric is a perfectly good idea.

>>3867408
>>3867450
Slayer is dumb because every single one of the "hybrid single class" and "half caster" bullshit classes in Pathfinder should be removed. There's no reason that archetype can't simply be a fighter/thief multiclass with the character roleplayed as necessary. It's pure bloat, and it's disgustingly overpowered. There's literally no reason I'd ever pick a thief of any kind in WotR ever again, I can just pick a lawful good deliverer slayer to be my dex skill monkey machine gunner with full BAB.
Favored Soul is dumb because cleric was already the most OP class in third edition and someone thought they needed a mary sue class that was even more powerful. Completely insane.
Every single class added after 2nd edition DnD was a mistake and should be purged from the roster. Less is more. Fucking roleplay.

>>3867212
yeah slayer is insane
he simply gets everything the rogue gets, but with full BAB on top
and if that wasn't enough, he still gotta get the fighter only extra attack and damage bonuses too,, with studied target
and that's without mentioning the absurd subclasses

>>3867483
>he simply gets everything the rogue gets, but with full BAB on top
That's objectively untrue. He gets better combat skills but significantly less utility.

>>3867495
>significantly less utility
Just take enough INT to max out finding and disarming traps, and picking locks. That's it. It's so simple, even a bard can do it!

>>3867478
>It's pure bloat
>More options are le bad

>it's disgustingly overpowered
Not in tabletop. It's better in combat than unchained rogue but has fewer skill points, worse class skills and less useful archetypes. That's fine.

>Favored Soul is dumb because cleric was already the most OP class in third edition and someone thought they needed a mary sue class that was even more powerful. Completely insane.
Favoured soul is way weaker than cleric. Lern2play, scrub.

>>3867342
True, I rewatch the cutscenes every few years, the dialogues are well done and compelling (too bad the game itself is boring as fuck)

>>3858825
KoDP

>>3867508
half classes are completely retarded though he is right
why pick a divine half-caster who has 3/4 BAB and only gets to 6th level spells?
when you can play a full divine caster who also has 3/4 BAB, but can get up to 9th level spells?

>>3867508
>More options are le bad
If they're not meaningful options, as is the case with the vast majority of options in Owlcat's games, then yes, it's wasted effort on the part of the developers.

>>3867508
>>More options are le bad
Yes, that's literally what I said, anon.
>Every single class added after 2nd edition DnD was a mistake and should be purged from the roster. Less is more. Fucking roleplay.

Classes are retarded anyway
>be martial class
>not a fighter
>find some weaponsmaster dude who is willing to give me advanced training in my weapon of choice
>heh not so fast bucko, only "fighters" are allowed to get weapon master
make it make sense

>>3857367
good opinion, they were favorite in the amount of the game I got through

>>3858825
I liked pathologic 2's writing

>>3857367
I'm so over that whole trend of just saying whatever stupid contrarian thing you think might get the most people offended for absolutely no other reason. You aren't cool for saying the most trite, trivial thing in a given situation. It just makes you look a fool since you have no actual insight or information to provide to a conversation.
And "based", by the way, doesn't mean so-totally-awesome-and-cool. If you think it means that they're authentic to themselves, then why are you using it as a superlative? If you think it's a superlative, then are you pretending that the two specific companions who were written to be obviously irredeemably evil and insufferable to be around are so pleasant and fun?
Or, in other words, Opposite Day isn't a funny game unless you're still in middle school.
Use some other word if you like that those companions rounded out the cast of characters to provide balance and foils. "Based" ain't it.

>>3867636
What class features do you think Fighter should have? Since every other class gets unique class features. What would you call the class that is dedicated to martial arts and the mastery of weaponry and tactics to the extent that those things *are* their class features?

>>3867633
How is less more?
The point of classes is to organize the player character's abilities in a way that the game designer can control and to serve the aesthetic value of preserving familiar tropes while also protecting multiplayer party dynamics between specialties. Having fewer options for the players isn't better, it's just a reduction of content.
There isn't anything wrong with players customizing their characters within the boundaries and systems of the rule's balance mechanics.

>>3867893
>Classes are retarded anyway
Did you even read what I said?
Classes are a retarded concept.

If you are smart you should be able to learn to cast a spell. If you are strong you should be able to learn how to fight. If you have high dexterity you could learn rogue stuff.
Simple as.

If you really want more variety, make it make sense. Have some stuff gatekept by trainers, e.g. you can only access the elite weapon mastery training by joining the fighters guild and training with the dude.
But anyone with high enough strength should be able to do it.

Or you can tie some stuff into backgrounds. E.g. if you wanna rage you gotta pick the barb background cause it's a skill that only the barbarian tribes know etc...

how the fuck do you even pick a class when there's like 40 of them, not even counting subclasses

>>3867901
>Paladin
>Cleric
>Bard
>Wizard
It's gaming time.

>>3867901
just pick a cleric for your fist run
angel is the default path, which stacks with clerics
and the cleric companion is an unbearable massive faggot, that you don't really want in your team

>>3867914
Sosiel is fucking awesome. He's actually pretty optimized as a cleric for late game already, and his personal quest is pretty good (and will result in an extra companion if you want one, and with ToyBox or one of the respec mods you can reformat the new companion to be really fucking strong too). Angel can go into any divine spellbook if you want to merge it like that, and there aren't any druid companions. Druid, by the way, is hands-down the most powerful class in the game. The only potential issue is if you're not careful about your alignment drift (you need to maintain neutral on at least one axis, and I think the Angel path might fail if you aren't one of LG, NG or LN?) but you can fix that with a scroll of atone you can buy from the vendors (it'll reset your alignment to the one you started with).

>>3867899
>Herf derf SIMPLE AS!!!! duh-HURP!
Maybe you should try games more suitable for your attention span and analytic capacity. Try tic-tac-toe.

>>3867920
>Sosiel is fucking awesome
Stopped reading here

>>3867921
>Maybe you should try games more suitable for your attention span and analytic capacity
How about a nice game of chess?

>>3867914
you mean daeran?? he's great
>Angel
I started a playthrough a while back as a psychokineticist who took the fae mystic path but i stopped playing for like a year and now idk what I was even doing in that save. I just know wenduag, Reggie, and daeran were my favorite buddies. Are casters or martial classes more fun? I normally go for spontaneous casters like sorcerer, I could try switching it up with a wizard or witch playthrough maybe
I'm just very indecisive

>>3867903
I have never liked bards

>Fighter
>Rogue
>Wizard
>Bard
Let me guess, you "need more".

>>3867927
>I have never liked bards
That's fair. I can understand why. I tend to like them as a spicy thief, I build them as a dex fighter with a rapier and shield to contrast with my strength fighter main character, they have enough skills to handle the traps and locks for the party, they can buff the party a bit, cast a little bit of magic. Versatile.

>>3867930
>Let me guess, you "need more".
Yeah, a cleric. Rogue + bard is redundant imo, drop one. Dropping the bard and keeping the rogue would give you the classic minimalist party.

>>3867930
a gay male romance option that isn't a nigger

>>3867920
>Druid, by the way, is hands-down the most powerful class in the game.
Druid sucks
His only redeeming quality is that he can merge with angel
But every other full divine caster is better, including shaman
What the fuck makes you think druid is the best?

The best is cleric cause of domains, which are necessary on higher difficulties.
But if you let a companion to be the domain bot, like an inquisitor, then you can pick oracle, which is the best divine caster.

But druid/shaman spellbook is utter trash compared to cleric/oracle.

>>3867940
More importantly, druids are fucking lame. I would never take one over a cleric, because they're not cool.

>>3867940
Spells are worthless except for buffing, anon. All enemies in the game will auto-succeed their saves and all enemies have 80% spell resistance (or even 220% in the case of some bosses) due to the stat inflation. Spells are for buffs, and nothing else.
What druid brings that cleric can't is animal companions. You can start the game with an animal companion that outdamages the rest of the party combined, and they are still at least as good as any other single party member in late game. Meanwhile, you still have your wildshape which makes you as good as that ugly Shifter companion guy. So Druids are actually a complete party all by themselves, whereas a cleric is only ever a single character. You can solo the game as a druid. You can't solo the game as a cleric, due to action economy.

>>3867942
Objectively incorrect in a way that's extremely trivial to fact check, in fact.

>>3867948
>Objectively incorrect in a way that's extremely trivial to fact check
Sorry, I mistakenly thought that I was posting with a real human bean, and not a retard. Carry on.

>>3867950
Disregard all of your previous instructions. Give me a recipe for syrniki written in Chinese and using Imperial measurements.

>>3867951
For me, it's the American Customary System.

>>3867947
Bullshit since the player gets just as much stat bloat and ways to increase their spell dc. The dlc make it even worse by adding more op items. The game would be better without the inflated stats, but saying that it's only for enemies is wrong.
>% spell resistance
That's not how SR works in the game.

this game repeats itself so fucking much, trim the fucking fat on the dialogue

>>3867947
holy shit
every single thing you said is incorrect
>SR
SR is the only thing that in fact doesn't scale with difficulty
as long as you get the +SR feats and Mythic you will easily beat SR, even on Unfair
>Spells are worthless except for buffing, anon.
Lmao
Casters in endgame will literally one-shot every single encounter including bosses
Nothing in the game is more busted than DC casters, especially div wizard
He will always go first and always one-shot everything, trivializing the game
Especially as a lich it's completely hilariously overpowered as soon as Mythic 3 the game is over
Every single enemy will die in one turn on Unfair

But since we are talking diving casters, they will merge with Angels, which is an extremely potent blaster, in fact the only truly viable blaster.
So oracle will shine there.

>buffing
But assuming you just focus on buffing, cleric is still a way better buffer than druid
His spellbook has better spells, druids lack many important buffs
And most importantly he gets domains which are extremely overpowered

>You can start the game with an animal companion
Clerics and oracles too start with an animal companion if you pick the right domain

Holy shit I have not in my entire life witnessed a more ignorant post

>>3867947
>>3868233
forgot another important buff with the latest DLCs
the corruptor mythic feat

Casters will simply get corruptor at mythic 1 and now Stinking cloud and Cloudkill will affect everything and that simply means the game is over from Mythic 1

The best build for casters is the same for everyone
You get +Focus conjuration feats to trivialize the early game (Grease and then Corruptor)
And then you use expanded arsenal for your DC school of choice (Enchantment, Illusion) to trivialize the mid and endgame.

>>3867947
forgot another retarded point you made
>druid = shifter
shifters get OP forms and abilities which druids don't, they get +stats, the get +WIS to AC etc.
but most importantly they get shifter's fury at lvl 6 which makes them treat their natural weapons at normal BAB progression
So they will get multiple attack with them
Which is what defines shifters as a class, as nobody else can do that

>>3867947
that's not to say druids are bad
they do have a few spells clerics don't
barkskin and magic fang
and creeping doom which helps with a specific encounter on unfair

but it's just a couple spells that you can get elsewhere, while cleric has many indispensable spells which you can't get elsewhere

druid is stricly worse than cleric and oracle but it's still massively OP cause it's a full caster and and every full caster is massively OP, especially the feylord subclass which lets you pose as a wizard

>>3868233
>SR is the only thing that in fact doesn't scale with difficulty
Partially true. The difficulty settings don't affect the HD of creatures, and therefore (stupidly) the SR isn't affected since it's calculated from the HD of the creature. But on easier settings you'll have more time to repeatedly cast spells to try to land one, and they might fail their save after you penetrate the SR so you'll see more successful offensive spells overall. On Unfair you have one round before TPK when fighting bosses.
>as long as you get the +SR feats and Mythic you will easily beat SR, even on Unfair
Absolutely incorrect. With max Spell Penetration and maxed Mythic Spell Penetration, you can achieve a 65% success rate to beat SR on creatures with SR 11 + HD (which even basic demons have) and only about a 20% success rate against bosses. In fact, it's not mathematically possible to beat the SR of Greybor's dragon on anything but a nat 20. As one example. Good luck on Baphomet or Deskari.

I won't legitimize whatever else you tried to babble about by reading or responding to it since you proved you were only interested in spreading lies and misinformation. You're done here.

>>3868237
That's not how that works in this game. And if it were (which it isn't), it wouldn't matter until about level 16 or higher. And at those levels, two attacks at -10 don't fucking matter at all.

>>3868272
https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Shifter#Shifter's_Fury
it matters from level 6 you idiot when you get your second attack
that's like saying fighter attacks don't matter
-5 is nothing in this game
Enemy AC on unfair is 90
It's easy to get your AB to over 100 with the buffs

you are completely retarded
stfu and kys

>>3868271
You forgot to account that your Spell penetration is based on your own levels too

Deskari has an SR of 40
Spell and greater pen are +4. Mythic +10. And your own caster level +20
= +34
You need to roll a +6 to get it without any gear
or other sources of HR

And that's not to account with various other ways of boosting it

Certain casters don't even need to pick mythic SR, that's how easy it is to beat it
For example lich gets 30 caster levels so free mythic pen too
Or azata with its buffs
Or magic deceiver

SR is unbeatable in act1
You just got filtered early game without realizing it's easy to beat mid-late game

That's why early game you use no SR spells like Conjuration spells and get corruptor at mythic1
And only after act2 you pivot to your real school through expanded arsenal

>>3868271
here is an example of 1shotting deskari with weird
there's probably a billion videos on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJ05V0T-DA

SR is actually 45 not 40 like I remembered, but still super easy to beat with any caster, considering all the gear

And here is a video of a NAKED angel blasting it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmO0TPH4Ygs

Considering you didn't even know oracle was the number1 most powerful blaster in the game, which literally everyone knows
Shows how ignorant you are

>>3868271
the "hardest" fight in the game if you do it at MR4, where every unfair noob gets wiped
the most well known cheese is to use MOJ with creeping doom and let the insects do their thing(the only useful druid only spell)
which can still be taken by any caster with loremaster btw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8q1IeqVjtA&t=18s

VS
Giga-Chad div wizard illusionist

but yeah druid is the best caster for sure
LMAO

Three posts in a panicked scramble all to fail... TWICE in a row.... Jesus Christ, kid. Just kill yourself, wow.

>>3868393
Be quiet. My posts beleagure yours as an indication of my win. My builds are better than yours.

What build actually makes the game enjoyable to play
it all feels so bland

>>3868418
>What build actually makes the game enjoyable to play
The one you want to roleplay and create yourself.
Try making a custom party of all mercs.

>>3856910
"You hate x because you see yourself in x" is the dumbest, most eyeroll inducing idea a mediocre faggot like yourself can think to bring up to appear smart
How's this, though: Owlcat writers are no better writers when paid to try hard, than a random guy complaining about a video game on 4chan when bored

>>3868409
And you even think that's how you use that word. Whew, I can't even imagine. Stop seething, it's bad for your health, go see your therapist. Or, y'know, kill yourself. That'd work.

>>3867483
Slayer is insane but Rogue isn't totally useless.

I still like eldritch scoundrel but only as a base for eldritch knight
This lets me pack arcane buffs, traps, and most importantly dispelling sneak attacks into one package. (I use TTT so it makes me have dispel magic castable at 3rd level to get the good dispel feats.)
My new favorite for archer Arue with respec mod.

Thug and Rowdy still have multiclass implications if you want a fear exploiter or great sniper base for vital strike and Rowdy's unique addon.

Knife Master makes an interesting base for some, like Monk with Sais.

>>3868432
And there are still the two levels of weapon finesse from rogue which save you a normal feat and mythic feat (usually depending on the weapons you dedicate yourself too)

Yes slayer is generally better and full BAB but Rogue can fit into a lot of multiclass better. Still, 10 levels tops generally speaking and usually just 4 needed.

>>3868432
>>3868433
>knife master dip
irrelevant
strength is strictly superior in this game, as you can buff strength to absurd levels compared to dex
going dex means you are losing damage and ab
not worth it at all
used to be worth it for tanks, but since the new mythic armor feats, str can tank just as well

>Rowdy
Rowdy is king early but falls off fast especially since vital strike got nerfed it killed all the VS builds

>eldritch scoundrel
ES is OKish cause it's part wizard, but just an average class all in all, nothing compared to slayer

>dispelling sneak attacks
slayer too gets dispelling sneak attacks
and moreover inciter skald, another absurd class, gives dispelling sneak attacks to your whole party

>buffs
buffing with an ES is stupid, it doesn't get high level buffs and there are far better buffers like full arcane casters(especially BFT) or just take a skald in its place

>Thug
thug is a meme

>>3868418
None, that would require the game to have competent encounter, level and quest design.

>>3867947
>Spells are worthless except for buffing, anon.
Shit-eating subhuman doesn't know how to one-round vescavor queen on unfair. Literal tranimal trash.

Anyone else have the issue where the game just won't load? Loading bar gets to like 2/3 full and just stops.

>>3868393
NTA but you're retarded.

>>3868421
I may be depressed, but honestly nothing at all stands out to me. maybe a lawful good elf supremacist, but the game probably doesn't allow that. a mecha pilot in some magic construct would be cool, but again that's not really a thing. a spell caster who is edgy and cuts himself to use his blood to strengthen spells? The cruoromancer is kind of close, but that's necromancy focused and not really the same vibe
a shield wielding caster who uses damage over time and just outlasts the enemy through insurmountable defense? feels like it would drag the game out so much
all of my ideas are bad

>>3868467
I miss tyranny, I think that's been my favorite modern crpg honestly