Thread 2062025

Monday -> Tinto Maps Feedback about Japan & Korea

Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about Korea & Manchuria

Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about the Shinto religion & Shogunate IO

Thursday -> ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video!

Friday -> Tinto Flavour about Japan & the Nanboku-chō Jidai & Sengoku Jidai situations


Previous: >>2056912

Japan isn't real

is this real

>>2062124
>1399

>>2062124
as long as its impossible to hold together, this is fine

>>2062124
I could see people starting a world conquest with one of the hordes. They seem broken in comparison with other countries.

>>2062124
vgh...

Only alt-right chudcels play byzanturds

I have only played New World, Indian and MENA nations, the only euroid nation I played were England and Naples

>>2062305
You are in the minority. All Paradox surveys have shown us players just play european nations and ignore everything else.

>>2062124
>low satisfaction of nobles(?) and tribe(?)
>losing money
>-78 stab
>174 manpower a month
I'm more interested in how someone can hold this together

>>2062347
With an iron fist

>>2062360
The more you tighten your grip, the more regions will slip trough your fingers.

>>2062124
Where is this from

>>2062397
the schizo thread from the forum

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/game-announcement-release-craziness-thread.1733691/page-159#post-30440174

>>2062447
Why is everyone in that thread a delusional retard?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-24-korea-and-japan-feedback.1771250/

Hello and welcome to another week of Tinto Maps Feedback. Today, we will take a look at Korea and Japan. This area has required less rework than other ones, but still some adjustments have been made.

Countries:

Not many changes here, only the addition of Shenyang.

Dynasties:

Not many changes here either, but you can see that Shenyang has the same dynasty as Goryeo.

Country ranks and Government Types:

Locations:

As I said, no major changes here, only minor adjustments.

Added the following:

Locations
Tamura
Seongwi
Jindo
Heungyang
Namhae
Geoje


Renamed the following:

Locations:
Renamed Aira to Kuwabara
Renamed Jeju to Tamna

Provinces:

Areas:

Provinces and areas of Korea is what has received the most change here.

Renamed the following:

Areas and Provinces

Total rework of areas and provinces of Korea
Renamed Tōhoku to Ōu

Climate:

Topography:

Vegetation:

Terrain and Vegetation

Total Review

Development:

Harbors:

Cultures:

Not much change in the major cultures, although a bit of adjustment of minorities.

CORRECTIONS

Cultures

Renamed Jeju culture to Tamna

Religions:

Languages:

Location’s language first, Court Language second.

Raw Materials:

CORRECTIONS

Raw Goods

Changed several Raw Goods as suggested

Markets:

That is all for today, this week we will not move far from these areas, here’s the schedule:

Tuesday: Tinto Flavour for Korea and Manchuria
Wednesday: Tinto Talks for Shintō and the Shogunate
Thursday: ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video!
Friday: Tinto Flavour for Japan and the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai


And always as a reminder: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

konichiwa dude

And not much has changed with the clans distribution, but here you have it:

>devs completely ignoring 99% of feedback yet again
The knees.... they have lifted.

At times I wonder what the point of such feedbackless feedback is

I truly hope they aren't rushing due to time constraints

>>2062518
>>2062524
What did they ignore?

>>2062525
no yasuke

>>2062525
They were supposed to add anime culture

>Can we see the volcano and earthquake map ? Should be very important for Japan

I'm not sure what you expected...

>>2062025 (OP)
>Sengoku loading screen in the OP
vgh...

>>2062524
>I truly hope they aren't rushing due to time constraints
They're rushing these out because it's part of the game's marketing. Do you think they're going to release the game "when it's done"?

>>2062524
>I truly hope they aren't rushing due to time constraints
In the entire history of Paradox only CK2 and EUIV were "playable" at launch, so I'm not sure where you're getting your high expectations from.

>>2062539
do we know what earthquakes do and how often?

>>2062525
Not really sure what they’re on about. The original map was already pretty good and the forum is positive about this feedback. The only thing I can think of is that the Koreans wanted more Korea locations

>>2062499
>only 5 Korean locations added
How much are the Koreans in the forums SEETHING?
Hokkaido having a billion locations for a backwater Ainu shithole that had like 50k population in 1850 will never not be funny in how it causes Koreans and Chinese to mald.

>>2062525
They didn't change any of the population counts. Didn't even bother posting the mapmode and ignored posts asking for it. Japan's pops were way off so it's disappointing if nothing changed.

>>2062665
>Japan's pops were way off so it's disappointing if nothing changed.
t. Korean

>>2062668
I'm a weeaboo, I just want my historically accurate backwater shithole nippon so I can start as Oda clan and WC

>>2062501
It doesn't need to be changed, but the northern face of Japan definitely has less than "subtropical" winters, due to continental winds that bring in Siberian snows
Their summers are the absolute same as the rest of Japan, however, so I'm not sure if it qualifies as a distinguishing switch

>>2062559
>I'm not sure where you're getting your high expectations from.
the 1+ year of the devs convincing us that this game will be different

>>2062680
Snow doesn't come from Siberia, it comes from being a humid place but being in the negatives. For optimal snow generation you don't want to be much lower than 0 in fact because that just dries the air and slows evaporation. West Japan is pretty optimal for this, there's a cold wind coming from the continent that sweeps across the warm ocean current and picks up tons of moisture that then dumps on the mountains.
Niigata which is just about the northern edge of the subtropical climate barely goes below freezing during the coldest months, it just snows a shit ton and then it melts immediately, it's barely colder than say Rome

>>2062669
>Oda clan
Holy pleb

>>2062695
Naruhodo

>>2062505
God, I fucking hate the Japanese """cultures""" so much. They're artificial geographical terms with no relation to actual cultural regions.

>>2062740
Would you not consider texans, californians, and new-yorkers different cultures? I thought so chud

>>2062741
No? What sort of meme gotcha is this?

>>2062665
You've posted this before, what is your source for Japan having the same population as Korea in 1337?

>>2062740
Let me guess, you think Spain, Poland and Russia are all ethnostates.

>>2062761
>watch as i make a false equivalence to a completely unrelated country
Spain has Catalans and Basques which should be cultures, Poland had many fragmented regional cultural identities, Russia had major differences internally.
I'm not even saying Japan should be a monoculture (regardless, it should), but the divisions that paradox have created aren't real terms. 東北(Touhoku) just means north east. 東国(Togoku) just means east (of the) country, 西国(Saigoku) just means west (of the) country. 九州(Kyuushuu) just means the island in the South. None of these were, are, or ever will be cultures.

also "ethnostate" refers to ethnicity, not culture. Spain isn't an ethnostate because there is a wide difference in race between Asturias and Andalusia, Russia isn't because it's half Mongol, Poland is the most debatable of the three.

>>2062649
pop density based on original post since no population data is provided in the feedbacks

Hokkaido: 283 pops/location

>>2062776
How many provinces does Mann have? Surely it's just 1, right?

>>2062776
Where's India and China on this?

>>2062776
Whoever made this should have made the dots the color of the countries.

I know Paradox is keeping Eastern Buddhism as just a stand-in name but they also make it difficult as they aren’t accepting of new religious names such as sanjiao or three teachings because it’s too sino-centric yet have Vietnam and Korea keep that religion instead of splitting it while Japan get its own unique religion.

How about Heaven Worship? Pretty sure everyone in these countries all worship 天 at that point of time regardless you’re buddhist, taoist, confucian, animist, shamanist, folk religion.

>>2062797
Reposting from a month ago.
>>2031375
Easiest fix in the world.
>Nobles
Confucian
>Clerics
Buddhist
>Burghers
>Laborers
Taoist
>peasants
>tribesman
chinese folk religion

Some of the peasants could be converted to Buddhist/Confucian over the course of the game (depending on which the emperor was supporting) but by and large they should remain folk religion, this should scale with control as well so high control areas are more likely to adopt Confucianism/Buddhism and low control rural backwaters are more likely to stay folk religion.

>>2062695
>barely goes below freezing during the coldest months, it just snows a shit ton and then it melts immediately
This sounds awesome.

>>2062497
>wang
>dongo

>>2062768
>None of these were, are, or ever will be cultures.
There is still differences, similar to Northumbrian and English split they implemented. They shouldn't be cultures, but it isn't entirely based on nothing.

>>2062816
If they want to split the Japanese culture they should do it logically. These extremely generic geographic divisions just go to show how arbitrary they are.

Imagine if instead of Norman it was "North Country.", instead of Occitanian it was "South Country", instead of Alsatian it was "East Country".

Ultimately I don't think the islands of Japan south of Hokkaido have had different cultures since the Ainu were assimilated and before that the Yayoi migration.

>>2062814
It's much less pleasant than you think. Snowing but wet is basically the second worst weather right after snowing but it's wet but it freezes over during the night which is the worst weather. Now snow in -5 when it accumulates, that's the shit right there.

>>2062810
Yeah, I think you replied to me that time. It’s just that now that I’m pretty sure paradox likely aren’t going to split the entire religion map of east asia and probably keep it one monolithic religion.

if they would split it that would be preferable and separate Vietnamese, Chinese, and Korean folk religions, it would also be preferable if they can simulate pops practicing multiple religions. Your assessment for each estate pops is okay although there will always be slight fluctuations, not all laborers will be taoist, clerics should have three separate pops for Buddhism Confucianism (call them scholars or some shit) and Taoism. Although, having the estates be all separate religions could fuck up the game. Still don’t know what the religion of the emperor, state religion would be if separated, by supporting a religion, would the emperor upon ascension change his religion to the one he supports or should he have his own religion with mechanics to support different religions. He should also be able to support taoism.

>>2062825
doesn't norman mean north when translated, and china calls manchuria "north-eastern china" so the geographic division stuff isn't really arbitrary

>>2062797
Let all non-clergy pop believe in up to three different religions with varying levels of support unless they follow an exclusive religion like Christianity or certain sects of Buddhism. Like a Chinese pop could believe Taoism at 60%, Chinese folk religion 30%, and Buddhism 10%, meanwhile the clergy wants them to be at 100% for one and will try to get state support.

>>2062836
Norman comes from Norse, denoting them as people originally from Scandinavia in the same way Anglo-Saxon denotes people originally from the North of Germany, it's not a geographic term.
>china calls manchuria "north-eastern china"
Anon, that's a post-WW2 administrative description because the PRC didn't want to keep using the term "Manchuria" (滿洲國) from Japan.
>the geographic division stuff isn't really arbitrary
They used geographic terms because there are no cultural divisions that match, that's my point.

>>2062832
desu the only reason I said laborers should be taoist is because they like go with the flow (of work) man
I am extremely under-educated on what Taoism actually is.

>>2062836
It means north man in french, which is descriptive yes but crucially doesn't just mean "people who live in the north of france" but a very distinct group of scandinavians that settled the area of normandy (land of the north men), they had their own language and religion and distinct look and culture before being assimilated. Norman is similar level distinction to Ainu from Japanese or more like Chinese from Japanese, not "guys that happened to live in a different part of japan who spoke japanese and looked and behaved like japanese. Incidentally Ainu actually makes sense to have as a separate culture even though Ainu means just human in their own language and it really is a modern term for the minority, Japanese called them shrimp barbarians

>>2062847
Sorry I meant that for every estate, not just laborers, for example most nobility would follow confucianism and its teachings during the ming while having a significant minority who believe in buddhism and taoism, not sure about the composition during the Yuan since they started to heavily promote tibetan buddhism and attempt to merge it with chinese buddhism.

Taoism is a religion like any other, i don’t subscribe to the western version which strips it of all of its gods, spiritual and physical cultivation, immortals, rites, practices, and theology, trying to build a ‘pure’ philosophical version of it that they said exists during the times of lao zi.

>>2062850
>Japanese called them shrimp barbarians
Chinks called Japs submissive dwarves.

>>2062740
>>2062761
>>2062768
>>2062816
>>2062825
Wait, never mind, I just remembered you can unify your culture group.

>>2062499
>>2062500
Still makes me laugh about how hyper-detailed Hokkaido is when it was basically a backwater at that time. Hell, you could argue still is, at least in comparison with the rest of Japanese islands.

>>2062496
Who are/were all of those little tribes on the Korean/Chinese border? Why didn't either nation conquer them?

>>2062920
That's rightful Korean clay.

>>2062920
Random Jurchen tribes, one of the Tungusic people, that moved into the region and became more settled than their Wild Jurchen brothers east of them. They once ruled Jin Dynasty China before they got Mongol'd and are now Yuan vassals. They later turn into the Manchus

>>2062892
>The Zhuang people (an ethnic minority primarily living in Guangxi) are currently written with the character for 壮 zhuàng "strong; robust", but Zhuang was initially transcribed with the character for 獞 tóng "a dog name", and then with 僮 tóng ("human" radical) "child; boy servant". The late American sinologist and lexicographer John DeFrancis described how the People's Republic of China removed the graphic pejoration.

>>2062920
barbarians

>>2062741
does a mexican in Texas have "texas" culture?
Does a black person in California have Cali culture?
What about an old jew in Florida? are they a florida man?

>>2062920
>Why didn't either nation conquer them?
Too strong, neither the chinks nor the koreans stood a chance

>>2062968
>does a mexican in Texas have "texas" culture?
Yeah its called Texaco
>Does a black person in California have Cali culture?
Yes, its Cali culture mixed with hood culture. Black people in different states have different cultures, like Illinois blacks are O-Blocksian while New York blacks are Bronxean.
>What about an old jew in Florida? are they a florida man?
Yes, they are AIPAC.

>>2062981
So Japan has 3 cultures
But america has 1000 cultures?

sizing discrete provinces over modern/historical population is ridiculous
Africa is filled with areas that could have been hyper developed, same with central asia/americas...

Why does Japan have 5000 provinces but sudan has hardly any?

>>2062992
Because Japan is civilized and attractive while Africa is uncivilized and unattractive.

>>2062995
asia is populated because they can grow 2 crops a year and have no winter... but so can Africa and south america...
Indias population was also nowhere near as high without English meddling

>>2062920
>Who are/were all of those little tribes on the Korean/Chinese border?
Sinicized steppe barbars.

>Why didn't either nation conquer them?
Not worth it, it was more beneficial to just subjugate them and vassalize them for tribute. Remember that these are preindustrial empires, every scrap of territory you conquer that isn't literally next door to the capital - adds a lot of complexity to bureaucracy and has to be defended against neighbours.

>>2063002
>Sinicized
lmao sure wang

>>2062982
Yes? Japan is an ethnostate while America is a degenerate multicultural hellhole that puts Austria-Hungary and Weimar combined to shame.

>>2063010
Jimbo, stop talking to your fourchannel friends, it's time for dinner!

>>2063010
>Yes? Japan is an ethnostate
Nah, they even have their own "Jomon vs Yayoi" memes. Also the Ainus, but nobody gives a fuck about them.

>>2063053
Jomon and Yayoi were fully mixed by 1337.

>>2063057
That's not true, and even if it was, that would make Japan a mixed nation, not an ethnostate.

japan can't be mixed
they are based and red pilled with 1.0 tfr

>>2063063
>that's not true
they didn't self-segregate, they all fucked each other
>mixed can't be an ethnostate
then there is literally no group on earth that can be an ethnostate

>>2063067
North Korea is an ethnostate
Sentinel Island tribes are ethnostates,
uncontacted and lost Amazonian/Kongo tribes are ethnostates

>>2063067
So, by your own logic, if America ends being a big mix of brown people, it will end being an ethnostate?

Proposed revision of Japan’s areas

>>2062496
Ezo Republic playthrough is going to be kino, democratic crusaders Ainu bringing the [French] revolution to Asia

>>2063087
you're just smashing together words at this point

>>2063078
>North Korea is an ethnostate
Manchu-Sinoid-Tungid-Jomonic mutts.

>>2063081
If it was thoroughly blended to the point you couldn't distinguish between people at a genetic level, yes, but even brazil isn't at that level

>>2063053
Right looks like a med or criminal.

Out of the time frame but:
>At this time there was a very powerful aristocrat by the name of Zhao Sheng, who refused to pay any land tax. In order to avoid punishing Zhao Sheng personally, Zhao She arrested and killed the nine administrators who kept accounts for Zhao Sheng's family. Zhao Sheng became very angry and wanted to kill Zhao She.
>However, Zhao She scolded Zhao Sheng for not upholding the law of the state. Zhao She also reminded Zhao Sheng that as an aristocrat, he should be an example in abiding by the law and not infringing on it lest the state would perish. Zhao Sheng realised that he was wrong and he not only apologised to Zhao She, but also recommended him to the ruler for promotion. Zhao She subsequently was promoted as the land tax collector of the whole state.

>>2063107
What the fuck am I reading?

>>2063078
This is dumb. korea has gotten fucked by everyone around them through the years, and tribes aren't states. Sentinel island is under the administration of India if I recall correctly which is among the furthest things from an ethnostate

>>2063111
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_She
Chinese internal wars.

>>2063117
No I mean the story itself.
>be corrupt as shit
>other guy covers for me being as corrupt as shit by being corrupt
>try to kill him for covering up my corruption (???)
>get told not to be corrupt by him
>realize i'm wrong and recommend the corrupt ruler for promotion
>corrupt ruler is now head of everything

>>2063122
More like
>noble refuses to pay taxes
>tax collector doesn't have authority to go after him
>goes after his underlings Instead
>shames noble into paying taxes

>>2063133
idk i consider killing 9 administrators to be corrupt

>>2063134
You're viewing it from the perspective of "corrupt vs not corrupt" rather than "wants to not pay taxes vs wants the other guy to pay taxes".

>>2063101
We are all literally mutts of migratory waves - except for isolated tribes, weirdo cultists and fringe freezing hells that nobody wanted to invade. The English are a mix of a gorillion people for example.

>>2063134
Chinese aristocrats never gave a single fuck about peasants. They saw them as disposable things.

I hope you could make reform Korea into a proper Empire. It was tried by some of the kings, but never managed to pull it off.

What are we all thinking for the Korea/Manchu flavor tomorrow?
I reckon an OP admiral Yi event and Qing memes.

>>2063178
I’m expecting/hoping for a lot of flavor for the Goryeo->Joseon transistion, as well for the two main crises enveloping Korea at the time. (Mongols and Red Turbans to the North with Japanese pirates to the South) This is also the period in which Korea adopted Chinese style gunpowder weapons like the hwacha, so an event chain and some unique units to represent that will be nice

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27oe_Yŏng
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27oe_Musŏn
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongtong

>>2063107
>two unrelated people with the same name
>>2063181
>two unrelated people with the same name

east asians aren't beating the allegations

>>2063182
Better than westoid names like: John 'Jimmy' Jr Smith III of Paris-Texas, 2nd son of John Smith Sr II of Paris-Texas

>>2063186
thirdie cope is always so funny

>>2063170
They found someone with 98% identical genetics to cheddar man living 10 miles from the cheddar man site.

>>2063221
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZSCR8Hk_Rc

>>2063221
so? A human and banana share 60% of genetics.

>>2063225
>>2063226
Samefag.

>>2063221
>>2063225
>>2063226
>>2063230
all me

>>2063053
>they even have their own "Jomon vs Yayoi" memes
No actual Japanese person has ever cared about this

>>2063225
>>2063226
You seem rather invested in pushing the argument that everyone is mixed race, post hand or nose.

>>2063233
>Cant even understand science
You are brown

>>2063234
>"N-no you!"
Classic.

>>"N-no you!"
>Classic
Cope

>>2063237
Just post your hand, should be easy to prove you are not a mud.

>Just post your hand, should be easy to prove you are not a mud.
Retard

>>2063239
Brown.

>humans aren't mixed race
>his example is people from britain
lmao
celts, romans, angles, saxons, jutes, danes, normans, and that's before getting into pre-celtic peoples

>>2062850
>Norman is similar level distinction to Ainu from Japanese or more like Chinese from Japanese
Fucking what? A Norman was a hell of a lot closer to a Parisian or an Anglo than an Ainu or Chinese to a Japanese. Spoke the same or very similar languages, followed the same religion, lived in roughly the same area, had generally the same political structure, etc.

If Normans are blue then Parisians are cyan and Anglos are green. If Japanese are blue then Chinese are orange and Ainu are pink.

>>2063244
Post hand.

>Culture convert in EU5
>100k Bantoids instantly become Prussian culture
In Eu4 you could handwave it as ethnic cleansing, but in EU5 its basically giving away citizenship.

>>2063245
>If Japanese are blue then Chinese are orange
lmao okay weeb
japan totally didn't get 99% of it's 文化 from china

>>2062903
>this can only be done once
So you can merge e.g. Touhoku into Saigoku but then Kyuushuu will always be seperate. Really this whole mechanic seems stupid though, like Britain can just merge Scottish into English with a single click while leaving Northumbrian as distinct? Stupid.

>>2063248
You know Norman, French, and Anglos all shared a writing system too, right? There are still a lot more similarities between them than Chinese and Japanese.

>>2063248
By this logic, Denmark is similar to Persia due to sharing the exact same numerical script.

>>2063225
>>2063226
>13 seconds apart
>>2063250
>>2063251
>13 seconds apart
Least obvious samefag

>>2063252
Not an argument. Please explain how two cultures that both spoke nearly identical Romance languages are at the same level of similarity as two entirely separate language families.

all me btw

What triggered the /gsg/ schizos this time?

This is genuinely embarrasing

Johan is probably laughing his ass off at the racebaits from here

I need an event chain upon the end of the red turban rebellion for the Emperor deciding to build the treasure fleets and sail all the way to Africa with the possibility of colonisation, with a hidden option if he is a devout buddhist to travel east to find Fusang and establish tributaries with the bumfuck natives

I dunno why you guys are getting excited about this you just know it’s going to be a let down like ck3 and vic3

>>2063282
A misunderstanding of genetics. Can't decide if it is better or worse than last thread's misunderstanding of culture.

>>2063317
This time it'll be different, trust the plan

They should add a few locations to Hokkaido and next week merge some locations in China and Korea citing "performance concerns"

>>2062515
How do the Clans work? I'm assuming the Shogunate is going to break apart early in the game, but how exactly is that handled?

>>2063463
they start as bbcs and become settled countries during the sengoku jidai situation

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-flavour-26-9th-june-2025-korea-and-manchuria.1771380/

Hello and welcome to another issue of our Tinto Flavour. Today we will take a look at the lands of Korea and Manchuria. Let’s start first with Korea, or at this point in time, the Kingdom of Goryeo:

After the national unification achieved by the Goryeo dynasty, the glorious formation of the eponym Kingdom of Goryeo brought a golden period of prosperity and unprecedented unity to its people.

Even after bending to Emperor Borjigin Kublai, Goryeo continues to be an important power, both because of its highly educated population and its powerful navy.

Now the winds of change are blowing, as the corruption of the Buddhist ideals and the revolutionizing ideas of Neo-Confucianism are changing minds all over the country. Will Goryeo transform into the strongest soldier in Yuán's army, or will it break free from those shackles and dictate its future?

It starts with some reforms and privileges:

Of which this unique one:

It also has some unique laws:

Unique advances:

Unique buildings:

And unique units:

There are some events related to the relationship between Korea and China:

And of course also an event for the rise of Joseon:

We could choose to condemn them to a life of rebellion, or to accept the rise of a new dynasty, giving a new name and flag:

And of course there are many other interesting historical events:

Let us move now to Manchuria and the Jurchen tribes.

The Jurchen people inhabit Manchuria and are divided in diverse groups, including the Jianzhou, Haixi, and Wild Jurchens, that have different lifestyles —some are hunter-gatherers, other pastoralists, but mostly sedentary agriculturists.

Chinese officials have divided the Jurchen based on proximity and characteristics. Jianzhou Jurchens, near Mudan River, have adopted Chinese habits; Haixi Jurchens have nomadic and sedentary tribes along the Haixi River; and Yeren or Wild Jurchens, in sparsely populated north Manchuria, rely on hunting and agriculture.

Influenced by neighboring dynasties, the Jurchen have chiefs paying tribute to hold nominal posts as commanders of border guards.

Traditionally, Jurchen have been divided into three types, and this is represented with three different government reforms:

They have some advances available to all of them:

Another mechanic available to them is the a special type of International Organization called Jurchen Confederation, representing a somewhat banding together of different tribes responding to a single authority on certain matters while still maintaining total autonomy in most. At start, there are three Jurchen Confederations present: the Jianzhou, Hūlun, and Changbaishan.

Jurchen Confederations have laws, with some of them centered around the structures and operations of the confederation itself on an internal level, and also others that deal with how the confederation interacts with the outside world.

There are more laws in the confederations, not just these three.

As one would expect, unifying all the Jurchen tribes will lead to the possibility of forming a new identity:

When formed, it will trigger the following event, with an option to choose the name for the country:

And of course, when managing to conquer China you’ll get another event for the option of proclaiming a new dynasty:

And that is all for today, although there is much more in the game for you to discover. We'll be back tomorrow talking about the mechanics of Shintō and the Shogunate, see you then.

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

>>2063466
bbcs?

The Chinese are very vocal about this one

>>2062025 (OP)
>Game called europa universalis
>Start date is when europe was a massive shithole bathing in piss and shit in comparison to the high societies of india, east asia and middle east
>Richest and most developed nation of the europe/middle east region is the Mamluk Sultanate

HAHAHAHAHA

>>2063499
building based countries get your mind outta the gutter

>>2063499
Building based countries also referred as extra territorial countries

Countries that don't hold locations, but are represented by buildings. Such as: Daimyos, military orders, banking nations, and the Hanseatic league

>>2063524
It's almost like the majority of the game takes place in an age where Europe ruled the fucking world.

>>2063539
Oho. Didn't know that was a feature. Sounds pretty cool, though i obviously don't know how to fun it is in practice.

>>2063541
That's Victoria 3. Spain came the closest to genuine world conquest, and England near the end.

>>2063541
That's Victoria 3

More than half of EU4/5 timeline the gunpowder empires and China were the big boys

>>2063554
>gunpowder empires
Just say the Ottomans. The gunpowder empires are literally that meme about a group at 1005 strength vs the group at 99% strength with one guy left over. The Safavids were a meme and the Mughals did fuck all.

How scripted is the game going to be? I find it hard to imagine the game lasting until 1800 unless they script the shit out of it.

>>2063524
>>2063554
thirdie seethe never stops being funny
>indian high society
kek

>>2063582
The highest culture society Europe had for most of the period was fucking Spain

>>2063583
If you're refering to the Siglo de Oro it makes no sense to single it out when you also had things like the Cretan School, the similar Dutch Golden Age or the whole thing that was the Renaissance happened during the period. If you're refering to war Europeans surpassed everyone else on the operational-tactical level by the mid 1500s and would surpass everyone on the strategic-operational level by the mid 1700s.

So confused. If this ‘Eastern Buddhism’ is supposed to be an amalgamation of taoism, folk religion, confucianism, and buddhism, then why is there a separate religion called the three teachings (which represents something similar)??? What is the point of it, couldn’t they just name the former as the latter? What is the point of calling it eastern buddhism??

>>2063596
Because it is Buddhism, but in the East.

>>2063557
>The Safavids were a meme and the Mughals did fuck all.
Both were pretty important, they just did fuck all that impacted Europe.

>>2063596
Seems like this is a very recent split. They probably just haven’t found a good name for the Korean version yet

Literal
BBC
Cuck
Game

>>2063524
>>2063554
>>2063583
No one cares about non-European countries—except browns.

>>2063615
The Mughals maybe but I never get how the Safavids were important on the level of the "tier" of the Ottomans. Impactful on the modern day throygh their conversion of Iran to Shiism the same way Meiji Japan pushing Shintoism on Korean is probably a part of why so many turned to Christianity afterwards but you wouldn't call that important. They spent their existance after securing Iran jobbing to everyone and then died. They're important to Iran but I wouldn't say important overall.

>>2063583
not the own you think it is since any backwater spanish village from the 1500's had a higher culture than 90% of the modern third world

"gunpowder empire" is really one of the dumbest terms coming from angloid "historiography"
like what does it even mean? everyone in the civilized world was using gunpowder in superior form even

>>2063666
retard the term refers to the fact that those respective dynasties got into power and unified their respective regions because of gunpowder

>>2063671
yeah the ottomans were definitely the only ones using gunpowder weapons in the middle east and the balkans
never reply to me again retard

>>2063524
SAAAAAARRRR

>>2063666
It makes sense, since it refers to a specific phenomenon wherein Turks get ahold of gunpowder weapons and proceed to rape their neighborhood for the next century or so. And then slowly decay into irrelevancy

>>2063666
It isn't that they beat everyone else because they had gunpowder. The specialized nature of gunpowder and artillery technology meant the state could monopolize the production of weapons, which gave the states a true monopoly on force, which allowed them to centralize power. Once the ruling dynasty had this monopoly on power, they could arrange the state like an extension of their personal household, with land grants being temporary appanages, Janissaries being household slaves, etc.

The Ming is the counter-example of this phenomenon. They decentralized production of everything so hard the central government barely had any influence over anything, and the military was purposely kept anemic to prevent coups. In theory Ming China had the manpower and resources to field a ridiculously huge modern army with artillery, but that would threaten the civil officials' power and require actually raising taxes, so it was impossible. It was the opposite of the gunpowder empires, who derived power from the army

>>2063686
Honkys coping with facts and logic

Delhi alone was wealthier than the entire euroach peninsula combined

>>2063758
>Delhi alone was wealthier than the entire euroach peninsula combined
In absolute terms probably.
On a per capita basis no way.

modern day india is so filthy imagine the 1500's

>>2063764
>In absolute terms probably.
define "wealthy"

>>2063767
GDP even if that is hard to estimate in the past

A very disappointing dev diary. They've got the transition between Goryeo and Joseon but there are no events for the sangmin to revolt against the nobles, nothing about the establishment of a peasant republic, nothing about self-reliance. I don't want to play an entire game as the backwards stooges of the ruling classes, I want to throw off the oppression of the Yangban and stand up as a united Korean people against the Japanese and Chinese imperialists.


https://youtu.be/ZMLcUtgz6PM?feature=shared&t=115

>>2063758
You’re brown! Your entire existence revolves around Europeans and you can only seethe!

>>2063087
Ezo didn't exist until at least 30 years after the end date.

>>2062950
Kek i love chinese nicknames, so funny
t. Gweilo or white ghost

>>2063250
>>2063251
>i-its just a writing system

>>2063539
Who dis?

>>2063901
koreacuck cope
There is a reason why Japan beats amerimutt and britcuckistani culture while Chinese culture fails in that despite all their wishes

>>2063924
>Chinese culture fails in that despite all their wishes
China has zero ambition to be a soft power nation. The CPC don't view making their women into literal idols for the Western pigdogs to gawk over as a worthwhile pursuit.

I fucking hate this shit so fucking much, putting diacritics on the map.
The map should look like it was sketched by an Edwardian cartographer in turn of the century Bermondsey, not some pozzed DEI polycule cuckshed digital art studio.

>>2063482
>The Hangeul Alphabet
Based Koreans. Hangeul is, truly, god's chosen alphabet.

>>2063928
>China has zero ambition to be a soft power nation. The CPC don't view making their women into literal idols for the Western pigdogs to gawk over as a worthwhile pursuit.
Chinks have been desperately trying to go the Japan route of taking over entertainment media, not the Korea route of whoring out their men and women

>>2063953
They really haven't. Can you name one example of this?

>>2063783
shit metric but what makes you say they had a higher one?
during these days gdp = population and europe, india and china were all roughly equal

>>2063948
>half the symbols make the same sound
great "alphabet" kim

>>2063953
Nah, that anon is right. I still remember when they banned some cpop boyband becaue they were becoming way too much popular for the CPP's tastes. China doesn't really give a fuck about softpower, at least not into pop culture one. They just want to make business and that's it.

>>2063966
The PPC have heavily funded Genshit to project Chink soft power. Despite the fact it defaults to being in Japanese and is clearly based on anime.

>>2063901
I'm not denying that Japan is obviously heavily influenced by China. The point is that they are still much, much more different from each other than two different French cultures are.

>>2063978
The original post said Norman culture was closer to Anglo-Saxon culture than Chinks and Japs, which is simply untrue. The Japs got every aspect of their culture, society, and way of life from China. Everything from their agriculture to the hats their officials wore were based on China. The Normans meanwhile had to slaughter Anglo-Saxons wholesale due to how different they were.

>>2063912
Knights?

>>2063997
Why would Mameluks let knights chill there?

>>2063912
The Hashashins?

>>2063987
>Norman culture was closer to Anglo-Saxon culture than Chinks and Japs, which is simply untrue
No that's absolutely true.
> The Japs got every aspect of their culture, society, and way of life from China. Everything from their agriculture to the hats their officials wore were based on China.
They have somewhat related but ultimately different religions compared to Normans and Anglos (in 1337) both being Catholics in allegiance to the same Pope. They also have completely separate languages (albeit with a partially shared writing system), again compare to English having been so heavily influenced by Norman that it has more French words than Germanic words. English and French aren't mutually intelligible but they're sure a hell of a lot closer than Chinese and Japanese which are entirely unrelated. And their writing systems are literally identical whereas Japan at least has the Kana (though they weren't yet in widespread use in 1337) to set itself apart from Chinese writing.

>>2064007
It's kinda based that you and couple lads were so good at killing that 3000 years later people still use your name to mean a hired killed

>>2063976
Genshin Impact became popular despite the chinese government, not thanks to it. Genshin devs were the ones who did the heavy load into becoming what it is today. The chinese government is laughably bad at marketing their own cultural products internationally, like african-tier levels of bad.

>>2063987
That's your typical anglo cope. They will never accept their culture is French based instead of Anglo-Saxon based despite anglo cultural norms being nonexistent in modern English culture. Accepting they are "island french" would mean they are more closer to the people they used to hate the most.
It's the same crap when the French larp as Gauls instead of Franks even when Gauls are fucking irrelevant to French modern culture. If they started to larp as Franks, they would mean they had to accept they are culturally closer to Germans than what they want to admit, think that they will never accept.

>>2064017
Wait, are we talking about pre-1066 Anglo-Saxons or 15th~ century English people?
If it's the latter, I agree with you, if it's the former I still maintain Japs are closer to Chinks than Anglo-Saxons are to Normans.

French = Chinese
Norman = Yayoi
Anglo-Saxon = Jomon
Japs = Jomon + Yayoi
English = Anglo-Saxon + Norman

Japs are closer to Chinks than Anglo-Saxons are to Normans.
But English are closer to Normans than Japs are close to Chinks.

>>2063957
NTA but video games is probably the best example. Genshin, Wukong and the real push to make Chinese game studios something of quality that westerners enjoy and care about. Making a shit ton of money off micro-transactions helps too.

>>2064040
There's a lot of problems with China trying to export their culture, a big one is legitimately the hostile nation effect (same reason we don't know anything about Russian pop culture) but there's also the fact their society simply isn't Westernized in the same way Japan is. This is largely deliberate but also a function of their language. It doesn't allow loan words in the same way. When listening to the average "Japanese" sentence you will undoubtedly hear at least one English word, however butchered. The same isn't true of Chinese. It may as well be an alien language. They're also extremely and unashamedly nationalistic, most of their highest funded movies are about some random battle during the Korean war where they beat some Americans. That's obviously not going to sell great in America, even amongst the people who ostensibly dislike their own nation.

>>2064037
>Wait, are we talking about pre-1066 Anglo-Saxons or 15th~ century English people?
We're talking about 1337 of course.
>if it's the former I still maintain Japs are closer to Chinks than Anglo-Saxons are to Normans.
Braindead.

>French = Chinese
>Norman = Yayoi
>Anglo-Saxon = Jomon
>Japs = Jomon + Yayoi
>English = Anglo-Saxon + Norman
What you're missing here is that French/Norman and Ango-Saxon were already much more similar to start with because they're all Western European cultures that follow Catholicism, speak western Indo-European languages with heavy influences from Latin, Greek, and to a lesser extent Norse, and had roughly the same political systems of feudal monarchies. The correct comparison for how China's cultural influence on Japan worked would be something like Greek and Turkish, two originally entirely separate cultures that became heavily intertangled through history and influenced one another a lot while remaining very distinct, though in China/Japan's case this was more unidirectional.

>>2064060
>The same isn't true of Chinese. It may as well be an alien language.
Chinese might as well be alien with its "tonal modes". That's the reason the language is so hard to master. Hell, even chinks themselves prefer to speak other languages internationally because they know damn well how hard it is for foreigns to understand them.

>>2063941
>The map should look like it was sketched by an Edwardian cartographer in turn of the century Bermondsey
DIY nigger

>>2064068
還是奮鬥學習國語嗎
加油哥哥你可以我相信你會 ! ! !

>>2064066
You don't seem to be understanding me. I'm not saying the various Western European peoples were dissimilar, I agree with you they were closely related.
What I'm saying is the Japs so readily adopted every single aspect of Chinese culture that they were functionally identical to them. Any divergences in culture would come later (kana, a huge number of westernization reforms post meiji) as such there wasn't even as much difference as the small gap between Norman and Anglo-Saxon culture. Japan was basically China.

>>2064007
>dude, weed

>>2063875
>let's overthrow the landlords and found our own world.
Gee I don't know anon, that sounds like gobbunism to me

>>2063928
>The CPC don't view making their women into literal idols for the Western pigdogs to gawk over as a worthwhile pursuit.
You from the past or something? Go back to 2010.

>>2064096
Communism? No, patented Kimilsungism-Kimjongilism, old family recipe.

>>2064101
>still no examples of them trying to export their pop culture

The chinks are getting uppity on the forum because of Japan and weeaboos.

>>2063953
Nah, Chinese movie industry has 0 impact outside of China despite constantly having "record-break blockbusters".

>>2064111
Kek, chinks would be based if they weren't gommunists

>>2064073
草

>>2064111
this is embarrassing

>>2063960
https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/accounting-great-divergence
There are some estimates that show Western Europe pulled ahead of Asia around the High Middle Ages on a per capita basis.
Population estimates are equally difficult but I think that puts Western Europes population pre black death at about half that of India and China at the time

>>2064060
>There's a lot of problems with China trying to export their culture
Which is why I said video games tends to be their big win. Korea has K-whores, Japan has anime and the Chinks seem to be cornering the video game market. On the rest I agree though on
>When listening to the average "Japanese" sentence you will undoubtedly hear at least one English word, however butchered
Whenever Japs switch to speaking English I genuinely think they sound the exact same as when speaking Japanese and it takes me a while to parse it.

>>2063875
>The lyrics of the folk song "Pulmu Taryeong" were modified in the 1960s according to the literary policy of our Party to fit the aesthetics of the times.
What did these Northgooks do to my folk song?

>>2064190
The original was about diligently paying rent according to Confucian ideals.

>>2063596
>>2063616
>>2063627
Seems like another rushed dev diary and that they'll end up making almost all of China Sanjiao.
Extremely glad to see it in the game. Having them all be pure Buddhists like Thailand was retarded.

>>2064001
Didn't they kinda have a bromance with the cyprot knights??

>>2063485
>"And King Yi Seong-gye requested for this to not be recorded."
Kek. Is this one the historical option?

>>2064127
I love when Chinese and Koreans bro up to shit on japs

>>2063879
Lmfao Krakkka cope

In the 13s Europe was a massive shithole and the wealthiest state of that general area was an arab sultanate

But India was richer than all of MENA and Europe combined kek

>>2064190
The original bellow folksong in Pyongyang was about sharing a chicken with the family so it's a pretty radical change
>Bellow, bellow, on the way to Seoul,
>I saw a stepping stone so I turned it over
>I found a chestnut underneath, and put it on the shelf,
>But a mouse came and ate it all!
>Caught that mouse and threw it in the yard,
>And a chicken came and swallowed it, oh!
>I caught the chicken, so who should get it?
>The body to grandma, the head to big brother,
>Tear off the leg and give it to father,
>And for the juicy meat?
>You and I should eat it, yum yum!

>>2064111
>y-you're a nazi!
fuck bros, is east asia on this moral panic as well now? thought it was confined to the west

>>2064400
I mean a country that had ties with the allies in world war 2 and a very bad history with a nazi-allied power at the time using the term as an insult doesn't seem too suprising to me. I don't know that much of the historical nuance though this is just me talking out of my ass.

>>2064418
Historically East Asians didn't give a shit about Nazis because it had nothing to do with them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qV7xbAVOY0
I hope he's just playing up to it because he's on a Western forum.

>>2064423
>his source is street interviews
lol

>>2064424
>his source for public opinion is the public
Yes.

>>2064428
Random street interviews are not a sample size.

>>2064382
>Norks ran out of food so they had to change their song
Kek

>>2064365
See, you can’t even just talk about whatever shit hole you’re from by itself. It ALWAYS has to be compared to Europe. Meanwhile, European history doesn’t give a fuck about you outside of some footnote that you were conquered on whatever date. Your mind is so broken by your irrelevance that you can’t even imagine discussing the history of your shit hole without constantly think about Europe.

>>2064434
This is a pro legitimate government of Korea thread.
Reddit might be more your speed.

>>2064356
That’s cool, was confused since I still assumed they were making vietnam korea and china share the same religion.

>>2063596
Did Korea really have Japanese pops in 1337?

>>2064362
Yeah, that event became a reddit meme not long ago.

>>2064540
>pro legitimate government of Korea thread
Yeah, this thread is for the Empire of Korea ruled by the House of Yi descended from Taejo of Joseon

>>2064606
not today, cia

>>2064544
Mostly the result of trade through Tsushima leading to communities of Japanese merchants and their families in the southern ports. Like 100 years after the game start the king of Joseon eventually required all Japanese in the country to stay in Busan, Naei, and Yeom too

>>2063960
>gdp = population
What is it about per capita that... certain... people can't understand?

>>2064614
GDP and GDP per capita are not the same thing.

i hope they let us restore the emperor as a living kami (tl note: god)
https://youtu.be/I695RCWLxF8?feature=shared&t=151

>>2064130
>half of europe had roughly half the population of india and china
yeah so whats the point of your reply?

>>2064712
Western Europe had a lot higher population than Eastern Europe unless you count Anatolia and all of modern Russia as Europe

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-67-11th-of-june-2025-shinto-and-shogunate.1771463/

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

>>2062360
just one more genocide bro just one more genocide and the people will be pacified give me a chance just one more genocide

no one cares about asia

>>2064877
I care, I care a lot.

>>2062363
Not after I demonstrate the power of this horde!

>>2064877
Japan is honorary aryan and therefore must be as enjoyable to play as an euro country

>>2064868
Worked for the Chinese.

>>2064844
>they increased the japanese population while decreasing the korean population
Chinks and Gooks aren't going to like this.

>>2064925
maybe they'll just get raped harder by the plague instead

>>2064868
Worked for me.

>having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Time for a Rance RP.

They really should lock content for every nation outside of Europe behind DLCs.

>>2064868
Worked for the French.

>>2064993
You should leglock me while I fuck you in the ass.

>>2063478
>State-mandated Steppe Princess wives
Holy based

>>2064442
But chud, your racist rambling has nothing to do with the fact Delhi was wealthier than all of euroach peninsula combined in the 13th century

Taking into account that devs are fully aware that EU4 gets often boring around midgame and that a large chunk of players hardly play past the 1600's, do we know how they are planning to keep the game interesting to encourage players to play a longer campaign?
I truly hope devs aren't just planning to make blobbing harder and slower to achieve.

>>2065014
no the afghani run shithole exploiting shiteating hindoids was not wealthier than europe

>>2065019
Doubt they will try, early game is the most important because that's what people actually play and they will attempt to double down on that. Due to earlier start date no one will play past 1500 anyways which is why things like preussens (epicus) isn't locked behind reformation but you can just form it instantly.

>>2065019
>do we know how they are planning to keep the game interesting to encourage players to play a longer campaign?
Lolnope
They do seem to have added a decent amount of flavour for the later eras though, stuff like an event for Serbia that fires in the 18th century. I assume that they're thinking players will be willing to play that long

i think pdx should make control under 70 rapidly increase revolt risk along with the current lower income, to make owning low-control land directly an actual detriment
this will encourage distributing conquered land to vassals, establishing tributaries and straight up allies in the early game until you get the technological advances (and gold) that would let you increase control enough to make conquered land, well, controllable
if vassals and tributaries are balanced to be challenging to make loyal long-term, then altogether you'll get a game dynamic where every large power early on will pretty much have to be a feudal one, slowly centralizing and revoking vassalatic liens as time goes on and crowns accrue power (as was the case historically)
rapid conquest would then become harder to justify, and even if conducted would still necessitate empowering local rulers as vassals or even make establishing relatively hassle-free tributaries the better way of extracting value from war

what do you guys think

>>2065069
why would people that dont pay taxes be angry?

>>2065071
call it banditry or something
low control = low enforcement of order = lawlessness

>>2064619
If we go back up the chain to the top
>1300s europe was a massive shithole
>india, east asia and the middle east were high societies
>the mamluks were the most developed europeans
>this is all provable by GDP
and then
>but GDP per capita
>nuh uh

You seem to be the sort who'd argue Mali had the highest GDP and development on the planet.

>>2065079
are legimtimately retarded or just brown?
serious question btw

>>2065089
Explain.

>>2065098
brownoids cant think abstract meaning you are unable to understand per capita

>>2065105
So Europe is better than the Middle and Far East? Thanks.

>>2065071
They still pay taxes, the taxes just aren't going to you. There's not that many examples of this today, something like a civil war state like somalia and somaliland where somaliland is nominally part of somalia but the locals pay taxes to somaliland.

>>2064846
>>2064848
Damn, this sucks so much dick.
You accumulate "currency" to get another kind of "currency" in order to pass magical actions like spawning manpower out of nowhere and getting free claims to blob, with no historical justification for it. (Seriously, can you imagine the Shogun giving carte blanche for one of the clans to take over another in peace time?) They should just cut the bullshit and straight up call it mana. I wouldn't mind it so much if the mana were tangible, countable objects, instead they're abstract concepts. Spend fucking purity? In what world other than Paradox's DLC vehicle meme game does that make any sense whatsoever? This is all a fucking joke. Every single person who thought EU5 would be different has now been thoroughly BTFO by Paradox's grift.

>>2064926
Why would they?

>>2065073
Low control doesn't mean lawlessness, it just means the king/emperor/doge/whatever doesn't have much power there and it's all being managed by local nobles instead.

>>2065133
Religion in general is like this, all religions revealed so far have mana bars used to cast spells. Honestly this is how many people at the time thought faith actually worked so maybe it's fine. You're using religion to influence people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, that's kind of the point.
commit seppuku is a meme though

>>2065138
Low control probably should have events that'll shit revolt risk.

>>2064897
Japan did nothing of note in this game's entire timeframe.

>>2065145
Truly amazing when you think of it. They only tried to invade Korea once and annexed Ryukyu.

>>2065019
I don't like playing past the 1600s because the history larp ends and it just becomes a game of supercountries.
And if you ask help with X, Y or Z it's always
>you should have bought this DLC, played on this version and done a world conquest by 1500 if you didn't want [game mechanic/nerf/grand alliance/blob] to get in your way, consult this Ulm let's play on how to reconquer Anatolia in 1444 to start an exodus campaign

>>2065139
Commit Seppuku is arguably one of the few logical inclusions. Far more so than stuff like "increase literacy"
You can choose to KYS, but you can't just wave a magic wand around and suddenly everyone can read.

>>2065019
>I truly hope devs aren't just planning to make blobbing harder and slower to achieve.
Why not? Blobbing should be hard. It shouldn't just be stomp rebels for 10 years and then never worry about it ever again.

>>2065150
>I don't like playing past the 1600s because the history larp ends and it just becomes a game of supercountries.
uhhhh isn't that exactly what happened in history though

>>2064925
WHAT THE FUCK IS THE SOURCE FOR JAPAN HAVING THE SAME AMOUNT OF PEOPLE AS KOREA IN 1337

>>2065171
Let's take the world in 1800.
>the big blue blob hasn't eaten spain, has barely touched the HRE, and refused to eat England for end node dominance
>spain hasn't eaten portugal and hasn't finished colonising argentina, didn't finish conquering the philippines
>india still hasn't consolidated
>timurids haven't blobbed one bit
>ottoblob STOPPED at the HRE??? Why doesn't it own half of russia? Why doesn't it own CRIMEA? Why didn't they eat Morocco and Arabia if they were going to eat the rest of Sunni Islam, wtf?
>south africa has only two provinces colonised??? don't they know how important that is?
>entire west coast of africa isn't colonised, let alone the interior???
>spain didn't beat britain to australia? Britain didn't colonise the west coast provinces???
>wtf happened to indonesia? No-one owns it? Did someone use the console to make it empty, colonisable provinces AND THEN DIDN'T COLONISE IT?
>mingsplosion happened and qing AI actually annexed it all, but doesn't own korea?
>russia finally colonised to the east coast and then also america, that never happens, but for some reason they never colonised their interior? Or Sakkalim? And didn't take over Finland and Sweden???
>swedish AI colonised everything but the actual provinces of greenland, ngmi, and they didn't even colonise africa or the new world, why?
>no-one ate italy
>no-one colonised madagascar???
baka
At least this game's upcoming war is going to be Britain-Qing-Ottoman versus Russia-France-Spain, with the deciding battle being two 10m strong front line cannon doomstacks in a Mexican mountain province, else it'd just not be EU4

>>2064843
God, I wish they'd tone down the color on their art work. It's all oversaturated as fuck. Looks like a cartoon.

>>2064846
This makes absolutely no sense in regard to reigion but well

No one but the player will use this religion anyway

>>2063595
>Dutch golden age.
I live in the Netherland. We've never had high culture. There was just a LOT of money going around and a lot of bored novea rich people.

>Renaissance
Was a pretty brief thing all things considered.

>referring to war Europeans surpassed everyone else on the operational-tactical level by the mid 1500s
Nah. Only really about 1700. Ottoman pretty much had Europe on it's rope until the siege of Vienna. Really only the move towards professional armies that saw major changes.

>>2063657
If you view "Boring nothingness" as culture, sure.

Even at the time most of rural Spain was a punchline.

>>2065270
>>2065271
you are brown

>>2065286
The pigskins were nothing in comparison to the gunpowder empires at their peaks, chud

Face it, during most of EU4 timeframe Asian Nations were the center of the world

>>2065286
I am a spaniard, yes

>>2063657
Playing with the pigs and eating cabbage before the weekly stabbing contest isnt culture

>>2065292
>gunpowder empires
portugal raped all three of them lmao
>Asian Nations were the center of the world
nope europe was the center since Alexander
>>2065301
no saar you are not and never will be
>>2065303
it is if you consider the other sides most common past time being rape and getting raped

>>2065307
>portugal
The glorified pirate hub that was absolutelly mogged by moroccans armed with spears and slingshots? Rn4jj

>>2065133
See I honestly don't mind it as much here because it seems like mostly social stuff with other factions, substituting for the fact that there's a bunch of extra diplomatic nuance that the game's diplomatic system can't handle so well. Spending religious mana on requesting extra support from the Shogun bugs me a lot less then spending religious mana to increase your grain harvest by 20% for a decade or something, even if I'm still not fond of the "save up and spend with a click" approach. But even with that said if the "gib free claims" button works with countries the shogun would have no authority over rather than within japan or the "gib money pls" doesn't actually cost the shogun or even require one to exist (which I suspect is the case) then these basically are just spells.
>Spend fucking purity?
I've just been headcanoning all these different brands of religious mana as just flavor renames of "religious influence", mainly because it gets too silly if you take it literally.

>>2065270
>We've never had high culture.
LARP.
>Was a pretty brief thing all things considered.
It was two centuries long. Don't even know what his means.
>Nah. Only really about 1700. Ottoman pretty much had Europe on it's rope until the siege of Vienna. Really only the move towards professional armies that saw major changes.
Yes the siege of Vienna in 1529. Even ignoring that the Habsburgs aren't the be all end all of European-Ottoman conflicts (and that some would include the Ottomans as part of the European sphere anyway) by the Long Turkish War in the 1590s the Ottomans has lost even strategic martial dominance over the Habsburg realm and spent the next 3 centuries being pushed back. Everyone else didn't even last that long tactically.

>>2065323
yeah and still managed to rape the le "gunpowder empires" in their homelands kek

I have been watching this conversation for a very long amount of time and I would like to enter my position as a netherlandsman. I can say catagorically that the netherlands has never had any golden age okay. Certainly compared to India not as good. You maybe say why you a proud netherlandman think netherland bad or India good? Okay I tell you because India actually had many artist and mathmen while netherland not too good. Europe always listen church never think for self, India actually it says in vedas that think as yourself is better than listen yeah its true so right from the start we see india better mindset but not only because netherland people very celtic but india as we all know is indo-ARYAN and our brahmin keep knowleege far more than europe

>>2063485
kek

>>2065395
thank you you are very smart sir

>>2065395
You’re not Dutch. A Dutchman wouldn’t have such broken English. And the Dutch were huge players in the Renaissance in Northern Europe. But good try Rajeesh.

>>2065395
Lmao beautiful Jeet rendition anon.

What killed the hype?

We don't even have a date, you expect me to be in perpetual hype mode with no idea when the game is coming out?

>>2065211
>the world in 1800
That map is ass. Use this.

>>2065493
People are realising that mana was the way to go after all. That reality is really going to sink in once the game releases and more people get a chance to play it. All these sliders etc are just busywork in a genre where the AI doesn't really know how to play the games.

>gunpowder empires
I don't even understand this definition of the word. By definition all empires were gunpowder-based until heavy artillery became prevalent and proper military tactics started to became common, basically more or less around the Napoleonic Wars.

>>2065523
It's ok, gold is mana so there is still mana in the game.

>>2065523
True, mana is good for you. Mana is the bread that came from heaven, after all.

can't wait for eu4 streamers to ignore 90% of the mechanics and just play it as another blobber

>>2065520
That makes the blobs even smaller

>>2065395
>Europe always listen church never think for self, India actually it says in vedas
Why don't Indians refer to their religion much online?
Nationalist conversations seem to be much more simple with an Indian, or in other words, is just swearing a lot.

>>2065550
Because hindu nationalism is a given but they can't really alienate Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Christians, or Muslims because of how complicated the intermingling is in their country. Especially Sikhs because of how big a part of their military they are, and muslims because they're the second largest group.

>>2065556
never interacted with indians award
They hate Sikhs and Muslims and are extremely vocal about it. So much that they blindly support Israel, not out of love for Jews but because they hate Muslims so much.

>>2065559
>but because they hate Muslims so much
Also because Pakistan is an unconditional ally of Palestine. Or of any muslim state, really.

>>2065559
>never interacted with indians award
God I wish lmao

>>2065526
"Gunpowder empire" sounds like it's supposed to be a bad thing, referring to empires that grew and died solely on being the first to adopt gunpowder into wide military use but failed to do anything else.

>>2065019
>I truly hope devs aren't just planning to make blobbing harder and slower to achieve.
blobbing being easy to achieve is exactly what makes the late game boring though?
EU4 is just a snowball game past the beginning when you become the strongest nation and just continually blob and get stronger, now if its harder to blob it means there is actually a challenge later down the line

>>2065395
Based 100% white fellow netherlandman

>>2065523
Generally true, people usually don't realize what makes a game fun. A type example is people who whine about AI cheating and believe falsely that a stronger AI is more fun AI.

>>2065167
>>2065618
To be clear, I never said blobbing being harder is bad, I just said I hope that's not the only measure devs are taking to prevent the game from becoming stale and boring by the 1500's

In retrospect it was so nice back then when Indians and other undesirables didn't have internet

>>2065688
Blobbing isn't that much harder anyhow

>>2065704
It might be enough to filter out casuals though, I've already seen retards on steam bitching about how the devs want to restrict large scale conquests and glorifying map painting as the peak of EU's gameplay

>>2065618
fair enough
Holding onto lands you own is also harder so thats something else
this combined with less blobbing and being less OP means "rising and falling" can happen more often with internal instability and other powers taking advantage
all a big maybe though

despite the female on the thumbnail the video was very soulful

If Johan is truly based he would bring back the EU3 main theme as the EU5 main theme

>>2065707
Just as retards are screaming that being able to take land without a billion negative modiers are bitching and going on about 'playing tall' being the only way people should be allowed to play the game.
The retardation is literally on both sides of this matter.

>>2065840
I can understand wanting the game to be slower paced and more difficult, but some of the forum posters sound like they play EU4 without even declaring war. conquering shit has always been the centerpiece of these games. They really got mindbroken by that screenshot of a mongol empire, the size of the actual mongol empire. Oh the horror, ohhh no the heckin WC might be possible bros, nooooo who could have possibly foreseen this
Florryworry probably already WC'd on his review copy and didn't bother mentioning it

I don't care if you can blob hard, as long as it's a massive headache to keep your empire together

>>2065808
>the best grand strat almost entirely made by latin bvlls
kneel

>>2065863
Yeah, I don't understand how anyone could give a shit if a WC is 'possible'. I only care about the game being fun and challenging not if some arbitrary end goal is impossible or not. War and conquest is vital for these games to be fun, it is fun to build big empires and then have big wars at the end of the game. This is the case in all of the gsg's (apart from THAT one) I hate shit like in Stelaris where they have gay modifers that say if you own 15 star systems you research slower then if you owned 10 star systems. That takes you right out of the game and systems like that are directly inspired by the retards crying about 'playing tall'.
I don't know how EU5 will pan out, I like the idea of the control system where you actually have to build infrastructure to use a lot of land. That seems like a good solution to the large administration issue without having modifer slop.
I just hope the cucks at tinto don't listen to one sector of the audience too much.

EU5 is filtering the fuck out of the casuals who can’t live without 4’s blobbing and mana.

>>2065699
>muh anglo bubble :(
Collapsing empire says what?

>>2065916
As long as civil wars are actually deadly it'll be fine. If I larp as Genghis reincarnated I should also have to fight a gigantic succession war once my great khan dies. If I try and restore the Roman Empire I should also have to fight traditional Roman civil wars every time the ruler turns his back for five seconds.

>>2065673
Mana may make the game fun for you but I assure you it doesn't for simulationists.

I guess next week will either be about China, South East Asia, or the Americas

>>2065962
They wouldn't do two East Asians back to back.
I don't know how they're planning to do content for Native Americans and Abos, so far all the flavor has been historical events that happened, how do you do that for societies with NO recorded history?
I guess dream time memes.

Wait, nevermind, I just looked through the dev diaries and abos literally don't exist. Based Paradox. Maori should though. Because they were Faustian.

>>2063134
That's not what "corrupt" means. They were executed lawfully for refusal to comply with the law. It's unethical, but not corrupt.

>>2063249
>So you can merge e.g. Touhoku into Saigoku but then Kyuushuu will always be seperate.
No, it means you turn Touhoku into "Japanese", and Saigoku and Kyuushuu then both become "Japanese", provided no other countries practiced any of the aforementioned cultures.

>>2065951
Nothing makes a game fun for them so it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make

>>2065987
Simulation does.

>>2065985
You should be allowed to do it even if other countries with your culture group exist.
Example, you form Saxon, Brandenburger, Prussian, Rhinelander, Hannovarian, and Bavarian into "German" but Austria, which you did not control keeps its culture as Austrian.

>>2065973
on the contrary, I expect them to do the Asians back to back, same as how they toured around Europe for a while. If they're talking about Buddhism they'll have to talk about Chinese religion too

>I don't know how they're planning to do content for Native Americans
North Americans are definitely getting content as confirmed by Johan, but are probably lower priority than most of the old world, given that their side of the map was all fucked up in the version streamers played.
Central/South America will probably be based on memes, I expect human sacrifice mana, flower wars CB, and terrace farm buildings. Probably some basic events for the Triple Alliance and the Inca Empire, not much else.

>and Abos,
Yeah they don't even meet the qualifications to appear on the map, let alone be playable. I'm sure they will end up in the game one day due to feature creep but realistically there'd be nothing to do if you played as them.

I want to play through the Fula Jihads again. Will that still be a cool option?

>>2065991
They don't play simulators

>>2066013
There hasn't been a gsg for simulationist players since V2.

>>2066008
>
release in august-september confirmed

>>2066034
Suspect it'll just be the soundtrack on youtube.

>>2066041
>>2066034
It's literally just the OST.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EU5/s/J4pS3XC2hr

>>2066034
Well yeah, obviously. They weren't going to spend all this money on marketing videos for a game that comes out a year from now. They'll go on summer vacation then release right after that.

>>2066080
In general pre-order happens happens within 2-4 months of release (CK3 vs Vic3). Even with the shorter time frame if they're getting anything out by September (their usually release month) they'll need to be announcing a date within the month. Even an October release like Vic 3 (inauspicious) would require a date drop sometime in August. It's why I think either they announce pre-order when these video behind the scenes are done or nothing until spring next year. If they start something they'd need it to be wrapped up within a month.

>>2066090
with the pace they are releasing TTs, surely they run out of content soon

>>2066090
Definitely not October since Paradox is already releasing Bloodlines 2 that month

>>2066104
So? Not like they have overlapping markets.

>>2066090
>>2066104
October would unironically be the optimal launch month as it coincides with the start of the hundred year's war.

>>2066104
>since Paradox is already releasing Bloodlines 2
lol, lmao. That game is dead, Jim. Let it go.

>>2065962
>or the Americas
This is the one. There is no way they aren't throwing murricans and latinx a bone.

>>2066229
Heya heya Americans, not yeehaw Americans.

>>2066240
America is just a big, fertile mass of land for the White Man to colonize.

>>2066265
big... fertile... mass...

>>2066270
... but enough about your sister

>>2065916
if WC is possible it just turns the game into EU4 where you snowball forever and after 100 years are undefeatable and if you dont want that you have to willingly handicap yourself

>>2066331
Bunnyhopping speedruns of half life 1 is possible but I somehow manage to not bunnyhop my way though the game without "handycapping" myself.

>>2066039
Bottom left will give me stronger children.

>>2066351
If you want to do a speedrun and dont use bunnyhopping willingly thats literally handicapping yourself

>>2066353
doing a speedrun is like doing a WC, it's something you decide to do if you are mentally ill.

>>2066351
>>2066355
There's a difference between being able to do a WC just by normal high skill (if even that) play versus having to use actual exploits or glitches.

>>2066008
game is 100% getting released this year
latest November

>>2065699
Yeah, back then I couldn't possibly have guessed how retarded and obnoxious they are. They've basically made large swathes of the internet unusable.

Will I be able to correct Ottoman mistakes and genocide all gr**ks and sl*vs infesting the balkans and resettle it with central asian turks as soon as I conquer it?

>>2066489
you get some turk migration event that brings in more turks
kara boga assimilation is also OP

>>2066490
Eww but I don't want to assimilate and create hapas, I want to be a timurid of the west and wipe them out and resettle the land

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-flavour-27-13th-of-june-2025-japan-nanbokucho-sengoku.1771563/

Hello and welcome once more to another edition of Tinto Flavour. Today we will continue the Japanese theme by taking a look at the flavor of Japan and the Japanese clans, as well as the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai.

After a long period of peace under the Kamakura Shogunate, the islands of Japan were plunged again into war during the Mongol invasions. That debilitated the authority of the Shōgun to the point that Yamato Go-Daigo Tennō was able to wrestle control of the country away from him. However, his intentions of restoring imperial rule were not to come to fruition, as his former ally Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji established a new Japanese Shogunate.

Now Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji rules over the country after Go-Daigo Tennō fled the capital and established himself in Yoshino. The struggle between the central government and the fleeing Emperor is far from over.

>>2065922
You "people" are obnoxious.

These are the estates of Japan:

And it has this unique reform:

While the other clans and the imperial courts have these other ones:

Japanese countries have some common advances, and some of the individual clans have also some unique ones. Some examples:

Some unique ones (try to guess which clan they are for):

Let’s talk now about how the clans behave. Let me start by saying that our recommended country to play in Japan generally is the country of Japan itself, as the clans, being building-based countries, play quite a bit different than regular tags, and thus are rather suited to experienced players that want to try a different and more challenging game style.

That being said, let’s look at how they work. Being building-based countries, they are of course dependent on their buildings. Here is some of them:

I'M SØYFACING RIGHT NOW

The next ones are exclusive for the imperial court countries and the non-imperial clans, respectively:

And another important building that cannot be built manually but it will instead be built automatically when a clan is assigned to be Shugo of a province (see yesterday’s Tinto Talks for that mechanic):

As you can see, both their economy and their troops will depend directly on the buildings that they own, so their strategy is to expand their presence by building more of those buildings and also taking the ones owned by other clans in war.

Now that we mention war, it’s time to talk about the two civil war situations in the game. Let’s start with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, a situation that starts just at the beginning of the game. Initially, all countries all assigned to support either the northern or the southern court, according to their historical alliances, but when the situation starts, countries will get the following event:

With this, the clans will be able to choose to switch loyalties, or even declare neutrality, although for obvious reasons neither the two courts nor the shogunate are able to change their allegiances. The whole country will thus be divided into sides:

Even after the situation has started, countries can choose to change their loyalty, not only via the actions in the situation panel but also through events that will fire during the situation allowing for that. Besides that, there will also be other events firing with options of getting casus belli or even declaring wars, making it so that chaos is ensured.

One important thing to note is that as long as the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation is active, countries will not be able to declare war on others supporting the same side as them. If you want to attack another clan that is supporting the same side as you, you will have to do it after the situation is resolved (or choose to change your loyalty, of course).

To end the situation, one of the two courts must be forced to disappear, through a special peace treaty “Force Imperial Abdication”.

So, we just had a civil war, what about a second one? Whether the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation resolves successfully or not, an even bigger civil war will still be looming. The Sengoku Jidai situation can happen after 1400 if there is no Shōgun, or if the Shōgun is in a weak position (low legitimacy or stability, or with rebellion problems), or if there are more than 6 wars currently active among the clans. As such, a strong shogunate will be able to avoid falling into it if they manage to keep their children in check.

Once it starts, the stronger and bigger clans will automatically transform into landed Daimyō, with the rest receiving an event with the option to also become landed, at the cost of opinion with the shogunate.

Becoming landed will have many consequences. For once, all locations in the shogunate in which they have a presence with their buildings will become owned by them, and they will receive a new government reform replacing the “Japanese Clan” one:

>>2066498
Are there really entire forests of cherry blossoms everywhere in Japan?

Even if a country does not choose to become landed with this event, they may have the option to do so in the future, both via further events that can fire during the situation, and also directly through the action “Proclaim Independence” in the situation panel:

The actions available in the panel are slightly different for the Shōgun, giving extra tools to control the many clans, both the ones that have been already landed and those that are still as building-based countries:

The objective of the Shōgun will thus be to curb the autonomy of the clans, while the objective of any clan would be to gain sufficient power to either become the Shōgun themselves or to destroy the shogunate entirely. The situation will end when there is only a single country in the shogunate (with the exception of allowing for the presence of a building-based emperor), or when the Shōgun has managed to reduce all other clans to just a single location building-based country.

As with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, there will be some events firing during the situation, giving the countries options to gain casus belli, declare wars, etc, and there are also some event chains of interaction between the Shōgun and the clans when the former uses the action to “Summon to Court”.

And that is all for today. With almost 150 countries in the Shogunate, there is much more to unpack in the game, but this is as far as we can show here.

As an extra treat, because many of you asked about it, here's an updated view of the terrain map for Japan, with an especial effect of cherry blossoms during spring:
>>2066498

Next week @Pavía will be back, so I'll leave you in his care.

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

>>2066496
>head hunting
It's Korean head chopping time
https://youtu.be/jz8n1l4gxL4?si=7f5RuL9Z4Hoal71x

>>2066505
>Next week @Pavía will be back, so I'll leave you in his care.
bro fuck off

So what will happen next week?

>>2066039
Bottom Left > Top Row > Bottom Center > Bottom Right

>>2066498
>no permanent snowcap on top of mount fuji
no basedface from me until they fix that

>>2066549
Based strong sons enjoyer.

>>2066505
>Pavia will be back
>Roger is the Far East dev
So that means no China or South East Asia next. Next week is 100% America week unless they're doing something random

>armies magically teleport between provinces
shit game

>no explanation whatsoever for what the emperors can do or how the game will go on if you pull an imperial restoration
Are you fucking kidding me? I waited months for this shit and all I get is some sleazy self-masturbation from rebellious buke niggers? Give me my fucking money back.

>>2066657
lmao, you got blueballed

>>2062025 (OP)
Why pdx is so allergic to money, can't believe we are heading to the fifth eu game and still no game about one of the most interesting periods in history that was the cold war, lazy mfers losing money

>>2066712
>cold war
thats tranny core, I'm good

>>2066712
Not going to happen. The Cold War is "recent enough" to avoid any kind of political mess.

>>2066712
I think that what happened with hoi4's cold war mods is more than enough to discourage pdx from ever touching that time period with a 10 meters pole.

>>2066754
Basically this. The Cold War is not the realm of GSGs.

>He doesn't want to create Greater Israel
>He doesn't want to expand Rhodesia across Africa
>He doesn't want to maintain Apartheid
>He doesn't want to unite the Middle East with Gaddafi
>He doesn't want to conquer Persia with Saddam
>He doesn't want to align with Ho-Chi-Minh as the US and use him to conquer Asia

I think i just suck at this game maybe
been achievement hunting, this time i aimed for big blue blob which i got fairly easily. Now i wanted to go for the roman empire achievement but haven't cracked the code just yet.
Every attempt i made at forming the empire ends like this, halfway through there until the entirety of europe and the middle east joins in a coalition against me.
I couldn't even eat up the entirety of england because they've been in the coalition since the 1500s

>>2066799
focus on one religion first, learn how to coalition juggle, dismantle as early a possible, set up vassals for reconquest to reduce AE, make sure to fire the absolutism disaster once it becomes available, beeline for adm efficiency and warscore cost reduction
those are some fundamentals you need to know for blobbing fodspeed anon

>>2066786
>He doesn't want to create Greater Israel
Neither the US nor the USSR would allow this to happen
>He doesn't want to expand Rhodesia across Africa
Same thing
>He doesn't want to maintain Apartheid
Enjoy your eventual Haiti tier armed rebellion supported by foreign powers
>He doesn't want to unite the Middle East with Gaddafi
Same thing as with Greater Israeli and expansionist Rhodesia
>He doesn't want to conquer Persia with Saddam
This one might actually have been possible had the Iraqi military been more capable, though with the risk of the US intervening at some point.
>He doesn't want to align with Ho-Chi-Minh as the US and use him to conquer Asia
At best you could have Greater Vietnam (as nobody gives a flying fuck about Cambodia and Laos), but China is a no-go and Thailand is an US ally.
A Cold War era game would suck unless its focus was on espionage and boring diplomacy

>>2066786
>He doesn't want to expand Rhodesia across Africa
Bitch please, South Africa or bust.

The only cold war era game that would be fun is a corpofocused game where you play as pizza hut and invade the soviet union.

>>2066861
>pizza hut
Pepsi is the real deal.

>>2066749
what happened with them?I don't follow modding drama

>>2066799
get as many improve relations bonuses as you can and try to only create coalitions against you of 3 nations or less until you are more comfortable with the game. you are doing well just probably expanding too fast.

>>2066858
>but China is a no-go
China did unsuccessfully invade Communist Vietnam. If it was a US-backed Vietnam China might have gotten invaded back. Especially considering this was during their disastrous military restructuring.
As for all the rest, you're overstating the levels of intervention. Yeah, you would fight some foreign-backed rebels. That's all that happened in real life. The rebels lost all the time.

>>2066799
When going for an achievement like forming the roman empire which isn't time gated you are allowed to just wait the coalition out. Chill out for few years until it dismantles and then attack the guy that has the highest AE left and would be the core of the coalition if it were to fom again (like Castille for instance). Try to fully annex the worst trouble makers like England because coalition needs 5 members no matter how big they are.
You should also get an ally or two, like Poland for instance could have been a great ally at some point if they aren't AE'd to shit, and Persia may still be ally material. Allies help prevent the coalition from forming and they also acccept your blobbing more readily, try to ally someone beyond your current blob target to minimize the AE you generate.
Beyond that do some basic maintenance on your diplo, improve relations with any country that has 50 AE or close to that so they drop out of coalition, improve relations, choose the improve relations advisor (or diplo rep if you first want to make few new allies) since that makes AE decay faster. You can also pick an idea group like espionage or diplomacy which help a lot with AE management, protestant, reformed with diplo focus or papal sanctions as catholic helps with AE. There's also diplo-defense and diplo-humanist policies which are accessible and you can set your merchant to establish communities.

You can also try to break the coalition by attacking an ally of a coalition member which puts them at a truce towards you and then repeating.

Just taking the minimum improve relations modifiers, using a good CB (religious, vassal cores etc), and taking minimum AE reduction will let you blob 2-5 times as hard without a coalition.

we dindu nuffin tatars

aww mah horde fuck off wyteboi blyat

>modder have access already
Yeah realease date annoucement most likely next week.

Why are the newer diaries so empty? It feels like they say they'll talk about something, give a dissertation, and then only have one paragraph about the actual subject matter. It is obvious from the images they show and things they describe that there is a lot more they could talk about. Are they really just wanting us to wait and then play ourselves to find out? I suppose a little mystery is nice, but I also want to be assured that they've handled critical events well to ensure that the game at least somewhat resembles history.

Speaking of modders, does anyone know if any CK3 or Vic3 mod has two different world maps running at the same time? Like you can move units between them and interact with countries on both maps? I’m planning something for an EU5 mod

>>2067250
Idk but this would be cool. I thought they could do something like this to add the Americas to CK3. It could also be used in a hoi5 to represent areas like Iwo Jima without making the map ugly (and a second Stellaris to have another galaxy). Once quantum chips become easily affordable, this definitely needs to be a priority for Paradox if they haven't done it already.

>>2067250
Two different portions of a map where the only way to either one is a strait which is cast as a portal or something I guess.

>>2067250
I think that one big CK3 fantasy mod has something like that.
>>2067252
>(and a second Stellaris to have another galaxy).
There's already some mods that do that. You can have several disconnected galaxies with thousands of stars each or whatever. Nobody would be mentally ill enough to try and play like that though, especially with the recent update halving the already terrible performance.

>>2067250
>war of the worlds mod
>add mars map
>can only interact with mars if you have rockets
>martians invade
>disease mechanic ruins their invasion
>steal ufo tech
>get global alliance ready to genocide greens
kino

>>2067260
Same workaround I was thinking of. It wouldn’t look good all on one map, but it might be my last resort

>>2067263
Which CK3 mod?

>>2067278
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2326030123
This one, on the top left. It's just a seperate section of one single map though.

>>2067278
>Which CK3 mod?
He's probably talking about Godherja.

>>2066891
don't take my word for it, but I have the impression that barely anyone plays them. At best, they are totally irrelevant, and at worst they are snozefests that took the "nothing ever happens" meme literally, especially the alternate history ones.
TNO, TWR and Kalterkrieg are the worst offenders that come to my mind.

>>2067162
He says "without access", they don't have access.
he's talking about stuff like "GUISE IM RECRUITING FOR A NEW MOD I JUST NEED ALL THE PROGRAMMERS AND ARTISTS BUT I HAVE ALL THE IDEAS", that's "pre production"

>>2067314
To be fair, that's basically what Victoria 3 is, and it has a modest userbase. I could see them making another budget game like Vic 3 in the cold war era.
Abstract units away, just have proxy wars that act like Vic 3 progress-bar wars combined with HoI4 decision menus.
Main gameplay loop is clicking in the building queue except you're building McDonanlds and Pizza Hut in third world countries to expand your soft power capacity, which you use to unlock bonuses for your faction.
Espionage is just like the Vic3 law system except the law-passing EU4 sieges are for intelligence operations instead.

It sounds like "nothing ever happens" but that's what Victoria 3 is and it sold a decent amount. I think a similar "idle gsg" but in the cold war could also be viable if they keep the budget low.

>>2067278
there's a bunch of CK2/EU4 mods that do this, usually for separate underground maps, I doubt eu5 will be any different for this

>>2067405
It's a non inclusive statement, hes saying there are teams that have started without access but that doesn't mean there aren't teams with access.

>>2067431
I'd guess that certain modders act like beta testers for Paradox anyway, they do have direct channels to some teams for stuff like feature requests.
Some of them even show up in person to pdxcon and such so they've met the devs before. If Gigau hasn't played the game at all I'd be surprised.

>>2067246
>I also want to be assured that they've handled critical events well to ensure that the game at least somewhat resembles history
And this is the exact reason why they aren't showing everything, they are aware that they don't have time to fix everything before launch. They failed to make obvious changes on the last few map feedbacks.

>>2067246
I get the sense that they're sprinting toward release now. I hoped they'd let the game cook until 2026 but it seems they're at least aiming for 2025

>>2067683
I want to see some late game screenshots of observer runs, how believable world is it

if you're hyped for this crap, you're a historylet with a sub 75 iq

>>2067737
y

>>2066504
Now, Japan is pretty damn obsessed with cherries and once they bloom you do indeed see entire streets lined with nothing else but...
Cherry blossom season lasts a week or two at most.
They come and go extremely fast, turning into regular green trees almost overnight, that's the whole point of why it's such an event.

Japan that's permanently cherried is a trope made by people who have never been there.
Also, the cherry planting obsession is of course a modern thing. It's even more absurd for Kamakura period.

And the red plums last much longer and look better, IMO. Heck, most people using bright pink for cherry blossoms probably confuse the two. There are both white and pink cherry blossoms, but Japan overwhelmingly plants the white variety. They only have a faint bit of pink at the base of petals.

>>2067814
Meanwhile this here is what a plum tree (arguably a massive one by their standards) looks like. Much closer to the mythical permanent cherry that all western-made "Japanese" locales and maps have.

We're SO BACK Mutyarbros

>>2067737
>if you're hyped for this crap, you're a historylet with a sub 75 iq
...but enough about Civ 7 and pop history, this is the thread for Historical nationalists and revisionists.

If you spam enough about something the devs will eventually concede to you

t. Muhammad ibn Muhammad, Emir of Mutayir

>Random Arabian desert tribe forced Paradox to kneel
kek

So a gay faggot spams the forums about his retarded inbred tribe and gets it back on the map? There is literature that literally states they only appeared in the 16th century. He's gaslighting himself and others about some irrelevant shithole. Ooga booga shit.

it wasn't just him but a ton of reddit memesters aswell

Doesn't mean they didn't exist just because there was no concrete record. Oral history is more reliable for these cases anyways. Written records don't decide history anyways, because then people like Alexander the Great would be fictional and Yeshua of Nazareth non-fiction.

>>2068194
It's not about merely spamming because they ignore fags like that Albanian nationalist. You have to make it a quirky meme so that Paradox can think they'll get updoots on reddit for doing it.

>>2068128
shitty reddit meme

>>2068128
cringe

>>2068261
>t. f6xr

>>2068293
albanian nationalist type ahh posts

>"Vgh... finally my village of 200 people(150 of which are sheep) is finally represented and thus GrossGermanivms can be achieved"
>"IS THAT A HISTORICALLY ACCURATE TRIBE??? WHO CARES IF IT MAY OF EXISTED, REMOVE FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS"
nationalism for thee but not for me

>>2068399
If the welsh can exist then all sheepshaggers should exist.

>tfw german so I can play as my home city
sucks to be you guys

>ctrl + f "sandnig"
>0 results
You disappoint me

We hate Israel here and always expel the diaspora out of Spain to Thessaloniki

>>2062124
Yes, it is real.

>>2068315
>t. f6xr
Literally who?

>>2068261
>Oral history is more reliable for these cases anyways
lol, lmao

>because then people like Alexander the Great would be fictional
The fuck you talking about? There was a lot of writings about Alexander's conquest. Even the Bible names him.

>>2062124
I will make it real.

>>2068408
>to Thessaloniki
Nah, Greekbros don't deserve that fate.

>>2068253
Dare I say… Based?

>>2068473
>The fuck you talking about? There was a lot of writings about Alexander's conquest. Even the Bible names him.
A reference to how the amount of sources for Alexander's existence is less than that of Yeshua due to antiquity not having many records in general. This is brought up because people like Peter I or Yeshua are called into question if they even existed but doubting someone like Alexander ever existing is unthinkable due to the amount of proof for his existence.

>>2068477
But usually royalty always were well documented, considering they were the most important people of the region. The thing with Jesus is that he is described in several texts but those texts are wildly different between each other that you don't really know who the "True Jesus" was in reality. Or how he acted or how he looked liked.
Same crap with the "Real Socrates was not Plato's Socrates" shit that some academics like to discuss.

I wish I could assemble a personal army like the arabian reddit guy did, there's a location in Italy owned by the wrong country and it's driving me insane.
It already has been pointed out in the feedback thread but it's unknown if devs took note of that.

>>2068253
>Random Arabian desert tribe
>Almost as wealthy as the merchants to the other side of the desert

>>2068477
>Peter I
Of Russia?

>>2068521
I suspect it's Peter the Apostolic dude

>>2068525
Then why not just Pope Peter? Or just Peter as there's no Peter II.

mutayr bros... it's over...

>>2068576
Cope. Whabibiphobes lost.

the end times are here

Who cares if some random desert tribe is in the game or not when they're just going to get genocided by the Ottomans a hundred years into the game anyways?

No more Tinto Talks, Mutayr got the game cancelled

>thread already reached bump limit
I bet OP will be a fag and post the new dev diary in this dying thread.

>>2068647
Who cares if some random German hamlet is in the game or not when they're just going to get genocided by the Prussians a hundred years into the game anyways?

>>2068657
oh no, you mean we won't have 3 images of minor hotfixes for the map being discussed in a new thread! Whatever will we do!

https://open.spotify.com/prerelease/4Idl1uD8dHeRal79F3GFXY
they better announce the release this week

Name the region that needs the most work right now.

germany

>>2068685
merge half of the cultures of central europe, the first mod that does this will become a stable in my modlist

>>2068657
Do we even know what will it be about?

>>2068689
There won't be one

>>2068688
No one is modding the game to be less realistic

>>2068688
>stable
staple

I find it regrettable that the British region got near-instant hotfixes once it dropped while the devs barely pay any attention to Asia and America

>>2068738
Apparently the only way to get devs to do anything is to either hope it's their pet region or make it a meme on reddit

>no new thread
>no diary today
ITS OVER, eu v flopped, gsg won, again

>>2068738
>barely pay any attention to Asia and America
and thats a good thing

>>2068738
Britain is just easy to research (they're the main characters after all)

>>2068683
kino soon
I doubt the release is happening anytime in the next few months desu
No pre-orders yet

>>2068789
>(they're the main characters after all)
Nah Spain has been the main character since EU4.

>>2068793
2 months at most

>>2068738
I was tempted to say it's because the devs are english-speaking Europeans. So they can't actually research Asia very well, let alone other regions that don't even have written history in any language.
But there's enough works in the English language about certain Asian topics, like Japanese demographics for example, that it appears they just didn't read them. Or picked a single source and it turned out to be bad.

>>2068796
It's the Ottomans who are no matter what cringy and coping byzanturd shills screech

the chad and based andreas waldetoft
https://youtu.be/GS-X6W7w0K8?feature=shared
the gay and cucked håkan glänte
https://youtu.be/hSzCJ6wcnrw?feature=shared&t=32

>>2068805
>>2068738
>near-instant hotfixes
Because it's Dave's pet region. Areas of a game having more work done on them due to having the personal favour of an interested dev isn't new. People put in the extra work for things they personally like.

>>2068796
The 1444 bookmark is literally named "Rise of the Ottomans", it might as well be the subtitle of the game

>>2068657
Nigger it's page three.

>>2068821
>Victoria 2 Soundtrack- Poverty
The official Andreas Waldetoft theme song

>>2068738
>>2068822
The only change they've made to Britain is to add "Northumbrian" as a culture. Which shouldn't have happened.

Mutyar brothers we are so back <3

I bet EU5 will even have an achievement for the nation

>>2068826
Paracucks are inventing cultures atm

I remember the meme saigoku and tokogu ones in Japan

>>2068814
It's true for EU4 and EU3 because the start date is set based on their pivotal events but not EU5 because it start during Hundred Years War.

>>2068826
it's a symptom of "culture" being a thing that shouldn't really exist in EU5.
In previous games it was an abstraction of language, ethnicity, local control, art, and tolerance.
Well, now we have languages. We have pops that can have ethnicities, and we have "culture groups" they can belong to that can carry traits and aren't mutually exclusive anymore. Religions each have opinions of other religions. Every single city or village is a location now and they all have a local control number. We have estates active in those locations too. We have actual art pieces simulated, and artist characters who create them.
basically all the functions of "culture" were already replicated in a better way by something else. So it's meaningless now. Which is why all these meme cultures exist. If they have no purpose then you can color the culture map in however, and nobody can point out why it's wrong, because nobody even knows what "culture" is supposed to be anymore.

>>2068828
It's because the game is a lazy port of Imperator, and that entire game is based around juggling accepted cultures because whether or not a culture is accepted means you can raise levies from them which feeds the conquest cycle. Game is going to be another barebones blobbing sim.

>>2068821
how does the most spreadsheety PDX game, Victoria 2, have the best soundtrack of all their games

>>2068814
>>2068823
Just look at the art lol, EU4 has not-Columbus. Ottomans do work as a secondary protagonist though.

>>2068840
That guy is Turkic as fuck, pure Oghuz steppe ethnicity.

>>2068840
I guess if you look at it that way the Ottomans is closer to a greater scope villain kek. Like they are the one that start the plot of Europa Universalis.

Mutyar has been avenged

>>2068845
Based sheikh getting his tribe added to the game so he can WC as his ancestors

>>2068846
I think Mutyar will have some meme achievement now I bet it will be the meme tag to do a wc like Ryukyu was in EU4

>>2068840
That man is an Ulster-Scot, you can see it in the steely brow.

We all know the true main character of EU5 is gonna be the Timurids

As much as I hate the Mutayr meme at least it means we'll get less Ulm shit.

>>2068849
Timmy will conquer a bunch of steppe land every game and be a permanent unmoving blob until 1836. It's the Lake Federation of EU5. Screencap this my uncle works for nintendo.

>>2068853
Timmy is the most fun nation of EU4 I'm curious how OP will they be in EU5

>>2068850
They already changed OPM to ULM, Ulmshit is already baked into the game

Imperator: Rome (duh)
Crusader Kings: William the bastard
EU4: England
Victoria 2: Prussia
HoI: Germany

>>2068842
UVGH

>>2068855
>playing a T*rk mongoloid
couldn't be me

>>2068838
spreadsheet = sovl

>>2068860
It's interesting how can you trace a direct lineage through all of them too. such rich history

>>2068863
>He never cavvd only and with mamluk. cossack and banner units razed everything in his path with timmy > egypt (to westernize) > yuan

You never finished the tutorial

How did that Arab bastard get a bunch of limp wristed fag flag redditors to support adding his turd world reactionary shithole where they would be stoned to death the second they minced in?

the only reason to play outside of europe is for cheevos

>>2068865
how the fuck is william i related to rome

>>2068865
american post

>>2068872
Through Artorius Rex.

>play a western nation
>goal is to improve economy, development, literacy, standard of living
>play a non-western nation
>goal is to smash, grab, loot, burn, desecrate, destroy
poetic

>>2068870
Reported for racism outside of b THO

>>2068877
>play Ming China
>goal is to purposely cripple economy, development, literacy, and standard of living
I can't wait bros

>>2068836
Culture still exists to serve as ethnicity though. When you take an "Indonesian" province as the "dutch", you're not taking it in the name of clogs or tulips or windmills, you're taking it in the name of the white man.

>>2068838
I hate how Paradox choose to make ambient soundtrack nowadays, it's really souless and boring. CK3 soundtrack is just so forgettable and the only good part of Vic3 soundtrack is the ported Vic2 musics.

>>2068881
true, but characters already have ethnicities so "culture" as it is doesn't really need to exist. You could rename culture groups as races and cultures as ethnicities and it'd work fine, and then we'd actually know what the mechanic is meant to represent

>>2068879
I'm seriously asking. I get suporting Ulm or Boi memes because they're retarded but they're stanning some mudhut ooga boogas who export the most regressive form of Islam possible. While having LGBTQBIPOC+ Ally avatars.

>>2068883
Characters do, but pops don't. Also with characters you can do paradox approved memes like mating a black African peasant with a female European noblewoman and have the mulatto offspring be "Swedish", but you can't do the same with 100k Swedish pops in Stockholm.

>>2068884
I don't think mutyar people nor the user who ask it do anything you claimed you're just a racist zionist

>>2068880
East Asians don't count as they're the only civilized non-Europeans.

>>2068870
Because they saw the

>FREE Mutayr

Thread title and probably basedfaced at the funny contrast between the all caps word and the proper caps one. It doesn't take much to get them amused.

>>2068886
You don't think tribes people from the Arabian peninsula have social views?
>you're just a racist zionist
Nice try, but I hate Jews even more.

>>2068886
>>2068892
Social views that do not align with that of your average redditor*
I was that eager to say how much I hated Jews I forgot to finish the sentence.

>>2068870
>>2068884
>>2068886
>>2068892
>>2068893
Nevermind, brothers, I am retarded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutayr#Notable_people
>Dahham ibn Dawwas, founder of Riyadh and opponent of the Wahhabi movement and the Saudis
>Sheikh Ali bin Ashwan, Sheikh of Alabayat of Mutayr led his army in Battle of Al-Regeai and shot down British planes
>Adah Almutairi, Saudi scientist, inventor and businesswoman and one of Forbes top ten most influential female engineers in the world
Alhamdulillah, Mutayr is woke.

>>2068884
Maybe because EU5 subreddits isn't that filled with usual leftist redditor LGBT nutjobs? Like Europa Universalis is usually the least interesting settings to them I think. Aside from that are you that autistic to the point you can't read a room?

>>2068907
>Maybe because EU5 subreddits isn't that filled with usual leftist redditor LGBT nutjobs?
All of reddit is due to top down moderation. The moderators are faggots so ban anyone that isn't a faggot.

>>2068905
shameful. All tribes know in 2025 is oppose wahhabi, eat hot chip and lie.

>search the arabic for "mutayr"
>first video is some guy eating testicles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL5TUPiKHio

>>2068927
>testicles
rocky mountain oysters

>>2068472
the arab mutyar beggar

>>2068842
VGHHHHHHHHHH

>>2068861
what the fuck is this?

So what's going on at Tinto? Why are they late? I see Pavia was looking at the forum 5 minutes ago

>>2068964
Crown Prince Al Su'ud himself is having a meeting with them.

>>2068964
Shadow release incoming

>Parakikes getting threatned by nafris in spain so much they had to freeze their diary today
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2068998
qrd?

Game releases on Wednesday btw

>>2068840
EV ROPA BROS

>>2069011
I'm just glad they kept the name. Some people were suggesting they change it simply because people like to play in more exotic areas now that they have actual content. But the name Europa Universalis still makes the most sense. The game is about the time period that Europe became universal. The time period they spread around the globe and began spreading European developments everywhere.

Saw this on the forums. Maybe they'll be back same day the soundtrack is out

>people like to play in more exotic areas now
Do they though? The more "exotic" (read: shithole) areas did absolutely NOTHING during the timeline except get conquered by Europe. Don't get me wrong, I can google "medieval Indonesia" and find a link to the wikipedia article for history_of_Indonesia#1500s, where I'm sure it will comprehensively inform me king ramalamadingdong did readily shut down the port of goojamuwanka to kuntimiweho, but what did any of their actions really matter? The course of global history was not moved along by their actions one iota.

Compare that to Europe where every single nation did something important, in most cases it was so thoroughly outwitting some backwards savages on the other end of the planet that they were befuddled into signing over their entire nation in return for a couple of baubles. The history of art, technology, culture, civilization belongs to Europe. Realist art was being banged out here while the rest of the world still had mudhuts adorned with crayon scribbles.

And of course there will be the usual cope professors cited about how "the great divergence" didn't happen until, what have they got it up to now, the 19th century? Ah, I'm sure the descendents of the Aztecs and the Mayans and the Incas will be glad to know the Iberians weren't actually superior to them in every way in the 1500s, they lost on equal footing because they're such fucking losers. That will come as a great comfort.

Every continent on Earth was reamed by Europe over this entire timeline. North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, all of them bowed to their masters like the pathetic wastes they are. All "great empires" Paradox sell as DLCs all end in the same way, choking under a European boot where they belong. No game dare pretend it can be anything other than ahistorical while ever there is the slightest possibility the subhumans can raise a paw against the ubermensch.


DEI lost. Leftist liberals lost. Evropa won. The white man won.

>Gets reverse colonized
Now what?

play vidya about before then
duh

>>2069064
at some point they added like a reverse colonial nation system for New World countries invading the old world.

>>2069070
Wasn't that CK2 with the Sunset Invasion expansion?

>>2069102
>CK2 with the Sunset Invasion expansion?
Neu-Paracuck fans won't remember how althist BS used to get pushback instead of accepting slop like "Communist states of New Afrika"

>>2069110
Communist states of neu afrika isn't a dlc though. New Afrika is a tag to stop niggers assimilating and every nation can turn communist.

It's Tintover.

>>2068870
>>2068884
>>2068891
I think it all started because the whole situation was hilarious for redditors.
One day this guy posted the map of pre-feefback arabia captioned something like "Can't wait to play as Mutayr as an homage to my ancestors :)))" and then redditors replied "uhm sorry kind stranger, ackchyually Mutayr got removed in the feedback thread."
Updoots and circlejerking did the rest.

>>2069102
Originally yes, but there are a lot of euiv memes referencing sunset invasion. They even have a unique tech group if you export a CK2 save with sunset invasion enabled.

Tinto Talks/Flavors Update

We are working on a new schedule. Doing 4+ a week takes a fair bit of time, and the people working on them also needs to work on the game. There are also some holidays this week (MIDSUMMER!) and next week (Sant Joan), but there should be a TT tomorrow!


You'll get a screenshot from my current Oman game, where I finally managed to get my first town founded.. And you can see some trade on the ocean, one, where i am exporting pearls to India. My alerts are mostly my lack of lumber making things unprofitable, and my burghers wanting goods..

>>2069300
>Still have gay retard picture in the corner.
Someone on the Dev team has a bee in their bonnet about that dang picture. They must be so mad that everyone agrees it needs to go.

>>2069364
It's funny because I bet hidding it will be a day-1 mod.

>>2068837
You cannot be this retarded. For real.

There are dozens over dozens of threads showing what there is in the game. Claiming it is barebones only shows the kind of nigger faggot you are.

>>2069300
>>2069364
Didn't they give the game to a bunch of youtubers a while back specifically to get feedbacks about the UI?

>>2069388
I imagine those youtubers was being a complete yesmen to Tinto because they don't want to be blacklisted.

Are the portrait and the flag two different buttons? Maybe a reason they are hesitant to remove it.