https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-flavour-29-27th-of-june-2025-milan-naples.1809425/

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will take a look at the flavour content for Milan & Naples! Besides being the respective leaders of the Ghibellines and Guelphs IOs, as we saw this Wednesday, they have their own country flavour, as being two of the most important Italian countries of the period. So let’s start without further ado:

Milan

The politics of the Italian peninsula are a double-edged sword. Foes and friends, allies and rivals are but identities prescribed and rescinded as easily as the wine flows in a cup. The Milanese position in this hostile environment is quite advantageous. Centered around the strong urban center in Milan, we may seek to project our strength on our newly conquered territories around us, whilst protecting against the menaces to the east and west.

Internally, the rise of autonomous city-states will likely cause issues for our administration and the preservation of our sovereignty. We stand to gain an inconceivable amount of glory and prestige, should we succeed in quelling both internal and external dangers, under a strong and united leadership.

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.

The Middle Po valley is quite urbanized and crowded with cities and towns.

Milan starts as a Dynastic Signoria, in the hands of the Visconti family:

It has some starting works of art:

Here you have some of the advances:

And around 50 DHEs, with diverse topics, of which here you have some:

Naples

The Kingdom of Naples stands at the crossroads of its troubled history. Born from the ambitions of powerful dynasties seeking dominion over the southern Italian lands, Naples rises as a bastion of resilience and cultural fusion that extends from ancient civilizations such as the Greeks and Romans, to the more recent dynasties of the Hauteville, Hohenstaufen, and Anjou, each leaving an indelible mark on its identity.

In the year 1337, the Kingdom finds itself under the rule of a visionary leader, King Robert ‘the Wise’ d’Anjou; a wise and just monarch known for his sagacity and keen judgment, he has navigated the intricate web of political alliances with finesse. His rule has brought a period of relative peace, a welcome respite from the turbulence of the past.

What will be of Naples when his steady hand falters? What will his successor do to stave off all those who covet the Neapolitan lands?

The situation of Naples is quite opposite to that of Milan, being a big and mostly rural country.

Here is the starting diplomatic situation of Naples, which is very strong:

Naples starts in a Personal Union with Provence, Mondoy and Prato (as King Roberto being the 'Podestá', or Lord, of those two cities), with Albania and Achaia as vassals, cores in Sicily (obviously!), and as the leader of the Guelph IO.

Naples has a starting work of art:

Here you have some of its advances:

Naples has around 60 DHEs. There are long event chains about the succession of King Robert 'the Wise', which is set on his daughter, Princess Joana (who in real life, was quite troublesome):

There are several possible outcomes to the reign of Queen Joanna, making for a very entangled situation, such as:

Other flavour events of Naples are:

… And much more, but that’s all for today! Next week we’ll have the regular Tinto Talks on Wednesday and Tinto Flavour on Friday, although we have yet to settle the schedule (No shadow release announcement craziness, please! We just need to adjust a couple of things related to the summer calendar, as there a few moving blocks regarding who's available and when). What I can tell you is that on Wednesday, we will very likely take a look at a situation.

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!

>>2078711
>>2078717
God the map is so pretty. Does anyone remember what the "Median" Culture in Naples is?

>>2078708 (OP)
>Pavia
I've had enough! Now devs self-insert onto the map?! Do they have no shame?

>>2078752
I knew a girl called "Austria" in school. And a "Devon". People are starting to call their children after countries.

>>2078773
I assume you are American? In that case I think its pretty unlikely their parents even knew where these place even are.

>>2078775
Map games need to be mandatory in schools.

>>2078773
You are like decades if not centuries late. People have always named their children like places. Names like Paris, Lorraine, Lourdes, Florence, Germaine, India, etc, have been used for ages.

>>2078788
Yeah it was pretty common. You had people named things like Duke of Lorraine, Count of St. Germaine, and Empress of India.

>>2078747
>Does anyone remember what the "Median" Culture in Naples is?
Central Italian basically, used to be called Umbrian until the Italians of the forum asked for it to be changed

>>2078812
It's sounds like a weird compromise name but I guess it's understandable because Central Italian of that era wasn't unified identity-wise and assigning different cultures for each city is just too much.

>>2078812
>>2078817
Just change it back fuck. I keep thinking about Persian shits.

>>2078711
>The dynastyc Signoria giv reform looks nice, do other countries in Italy have it at the start like Ferrara, Verona, Mantua...
>Also can we see the Signoria selection succession please?

1. Five more: Ferrara, Padua, Ravenna, Rimini, and Verona.
2. Yes, I'm also adding it to the main post:

>>2078715
>Regarding the "visconti city state", why is the event option mentioning "our patricians will gain 5% estate satisfaction", but the priviledge doesn't give any estate satisfaction ?

>Also, is the decrease in other estates satisfaction something only for this priviledge, or are all priviledges (or at least a significant part of them) now giving malus to other estates satisfaction (I remember defending the second so would be glad if it was a tested change for more than just this priviledge)

1. Reporting.
2. It's now a generic feature:

> Any content related to Sforza getting to power in Milan or to Aragonese conquering Naple?

>Can Naples create the Royal Palace of Caserta? If yes is it behind a certain date/ advance?

Time travelling to the 18th century:

>>2078717
>Why does Nepal have such a monstrous manpower pool? With the professional army he could maintain with it, he could simply conquer Europe.

That's not the manpower, that's the Relative Power, which also accounts for levies. This is the starting manpower:

>last thing : can we change the ugly colour of two sicilies (as in, the deep dark blue of the naples formable) in something more eye pleasing? Please? Please?

>Non-related question:

>Is there a working ledger? Because there will be one, right (there has to be)? If so, can you show how it looks like?

>And of no - can you at least tell me whether there will be graphs there, like population/wealth/income/production etc?

Of course (as usual, take it as WIP, and not final):

God, I have zero interest in shit*lian countries. My hype had been at peak but I really don't fucking care about some wops fighting over a literal bucket. Show me the relevant parts of the world. Not read either of the last two DD.

>>2078908
So nothing about Hungary, huh? That's weird, considering how this was the time when Anjou's shenanigans were at its peak.

>>2078935
brown hands typed this post

>>2078940
Italy hasn't been a relevant country since 476.
>t-the wenasonce
Italians stealing Greek art, history, and culture, tale as old as time.

>>2078502
Because the breakup wasn't about punishing Hungary but fulfilling Wilsonian idealism where once national concerns are satisfied peace should follow between nations. You could do the same legal comparison on the Austrian part of the empire (the entirety of Cisleithania) too if you wanted for example as it was the same principle there. Ending the dynastic countries of yesteryear feudal construction for "modern" national states where everyone would get along™.

>>2078935
>Show me the relevant parts of the world.
Like?

>>2078957
Bosnia.

>>2078957
Outside of Sub-saharan Africa I struggle to think of a single region of the world less relevant than Italy.

Scratch that, Sub-Saharan Africa had the slave trade, rounding of the Cape, Portuguese colonization of Angola and Mozambique, the Saharan trade route, Mansa Musa, etc.

>>2078939
Tinto Flavour Hungary was released 4 months ago

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-flavour-9-7th-of-march-2025-hungary.1730657/

>>2078983
Burghausen

>>2078983
Based. A shame they didn't bring back their rightful flag.

Release date when

>>2079025
April 1st 2027

unironically how much does OP get paid for this

how can someone do this for so long without a financial motivation

>>2079067
Like the Story times on /co/. Some people just like doing this.

>>2077992
Why not indeed?

>>2079067
It's called being passionate about something faggot. Not everyone is a paid shill. I really appreciate OP doing this. The paradox forums are garbage.

>>2078935
I rate this post brown/10

>>2079114
BOOBS

>>2079114
yeah I meant more like genning art that looks the same as the existing art, because if it's AI sloppa it should be trivial to make your own in the same style. The point is that it's obviously not AI and people are generally bad at picking it out. Except me because I have a very very high IQ.

I dislike the "oil filter" look on these, but the burning menorah one looks pretty good. Unfortunately I don't think it depicts a real historical event, unlike all the other pictures which are 100% true to life

How will EU5 simulate the rise of new political ideologies? Will I get my pie charts?

>>2079144
V2's loading screens were faux oil paintings.

>>2078747
Both the map and the UI have come a long way since we first saw them. Makes me kind of respect tinto for taking a risk and revealing this kind of stuff early so they could get better feedback. I know a lot of people are reactionary and assume a placeholder will be exactly the same as the final product and it's hard to blame them with the amount of "It's just a beta they'll definitely fix it by release" that gets thrown around these days to no avail.

>>2079151
religion was the ideology back before freemason(jewish)-controlled chaos-inducing mass information media propaganda spreading of the industrial age

>here's a cunt
>here's some modifier slop for it
>here's some "works of art" (more modifier slop)
It's all so tiresome.

>>2079151
>Partido Carioca
Based Brazuca

>>2079151
What the fuck are anarcho liberals?

>>2078708 (OP)
I used to play EU4 a shitton, then Imperator (with the new patch and invictus) overtook it. Can't wait for EU5, but if you're really dying for a new EU game then Imperator is basically EU4.5

>>2079473
Nothing. If anything they're late 20th century libertarians transported back in time for no reason. Modern mods usually have an option to remove them because they're just a fantasy party and don't really do anything

>>2079151
I have always found the political party system in Vic2 somewhat boring. War is fun, colonies are fun, pops are fun, the economy is fun (even if I have no idea how to build an actual "good" one) but the parties just feel a bit hollow. It would be cool if there were multiple dynamic (historic where possible) parties forming around specific issues, parties declining and merging and you as the ruler/state having to allign with one or the other. I heard Vic3 is a bit deeper in it but my PC is too old for that and I heard warfare is incredibly boring there.

>>2078708 (OP)
Milanino my beloved
>no special buildings and units
ACK

Between all those regional powers (Milan, Venice, Genoa, Naples), the Papal States, the Ghibellines vs Guelphs stuff and Spain, France and Austria trying to gain influence in the region, it looks like Italy is gonna be mad fun

>>2079336
What would you do instead

>>2078812
>median
It's utter nonsense. Just call them central italians as irl. I dont see the problem this is just retarded. No, tuscanfags should not be separated from romans and umbrians just because they have a slightly different accent, the language is the same.
>t.italian

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Italy

>>2079524
only if the AI actually engages with the machanics

>>2078935
>>2078984
Get better bait, nigger

>>2079524
Pavia said they use italian states a lot in their tests for those reasons

>>2079529
I think the reason they chose that name was because otherwise "Central Italian" would imply that the region was politically united

>>2079529
>No, tuscanfags should not be separated from romans and umbrians just because they have a slightly different accent, the language is the same.
They used the accents being different to justify splitting up the English culture. I agree that it is retarded but they seem to be doing it based upon gameplay considerations.

cant wait for the video on the art to release showing full timelapses of it being created so all the aifags get btfo just like what happened with that ck3 byzantine artwork. it was extremely funny seeing self proclaimed experts in spotting AI generations getting completely btfo

>>2079762
>it was just shit artists, chuds btfo!
Meds, now

>>2079791
>Meds
Well, yeah, they are from Spain.

>play the new zokka rework
>get my ass whooped and my nation annexed by jadd
i'm not as good at this game as i thought i was

>>2079836
wrong thread sorry eu5GODS

>click button
>get modifier slop bonuses
no one is even talking about actual mechanics anymore because there isn't anything new

>>2079874
Yeah except the population, markets and trade, levies/manpower, control, annexation/coring, something that resembles an actual government.
I missed a lot of stuff probably

>Germany-Naples
>Hungary-Naples
>Aragon-Naples
>France-Naples
>Spain-Naples
>Austria-Naples

Damn, Naples sure was the whore of the Middle Ages. What a slut.

>>2079942

>>2079874
/gsg/ is right down the hall to the right, buddy

>>2079942
>>2079991
>>2080100
>>2080102
>>2080103
>>2080107
>>2080108
>>2080111
Why are you spamming your AI gens?

>>2079942
Nice.

>>2080111
Though not sure about these latest ones. your first few >>2079114
were better. I liked them more, if you wanted to discuss.

>>2078717
Naples looks turbo broken for MED dominance

Naples was a dump. Palermo is better.

I wonder which country/region had the highest HDI in 1337

It would have to be Antwerp or Beijing right

>>2080452
milan

>>2080452
Itd be somewhere like San Marino

>>2080452
wakanda

>>2080452
Almost certainly northern Italy maybe followed by the Nile Delta.

>>2080452
Beijing still recovering from being Mongoled and Europe as a whole still recovering from great famine of 1315. It's pretty crappy era all thing considered.

>>2079882
>Spain
>Middle Ages

>>2080452
Cairo or northern Italy I think. China and Mesopotamia were still fucked by the Mongols at that point

>>2080452
Don't know why so many people are putting northern Italy, yes its not yet destroyed by plague + italian wars but still a rather hostile region with many small scale wars (Guelphs and Ghibellines) which isn't that conductive to prosperity desu.
I would suggest either Castille (Madrid?) or Aragon (Barcelona?) for europe, and Cairo for the middle East/Africa. Yuan was on the upswing again, but I am not sure how much which City was sacked. Delhi was still decent (until it goes down the drain shortly after the start)

>>2080684
very interesting insight
thanks anon

>>2080452

>>2080696
kind of funny that the most developed region in southern Russia in Reiou & Taxes ends up with the lowest dev in the region in EU 5

>>2080696
why is the most developed part of Iran the hyper mountainous region

why is the most developed part of modern Russia the one which was the part which was constantly raided by tatars

>how to depict development in the soon to be best game of all time
>uhh it's just a modifier slop bro

>>2080754
>why do people in a hot region live in high mountain valleys
>why do raiders raid the rich part instead of the poor part

>>2080684
Wasn't Madrid a small and relatively irrelevant city compared to Toledo or Segovia back then?

Are we talking about areas where it would be nice to live or areas with purely economic development?

>>2080742
The Pontic Steppe? Makes sense, it was basically a Ffa PVP zone, the Runescape Wilderness until the 18th c

>>2080684
Northern Italy has like 4 Barcelona tier cities, Venice, Genoa, Milan, Florence

>>2080836
>The Human Development Index (HDI) is a statistical composite index of life expectancy, education (mean years of schooling completed and expected years of schooling upon entering the education system), and per capita income indicators, which is used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores a higher level of HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, and the gross national income GNI (PPP) per capita is higher. It was developed by Pakistani economist Mahbub ul-Haq and was further used to measure a country's development by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)'s Human Development Report Office.

>>2079473
retards

>>2080452
L O N D O N
O
N
D
O
N

>>2079882
Actually, all those countries were offering themselves as sugar mamas to the Terrone BVLL

>>2080197
Helps me get in the mood for the game.
>>2079144
>I dislike the "oil filter" look on these
It's necessary to help hide the jank. Plus I've always liked Victoria 2 and EU3's loading screens, which are (actual) oil painting style.
>>2080216
Yeah, I prefer the more abstract style too.

>>2080684
>question was country/region
>gives a bunch of cities or even worse regions he straight up admits to not knowing jack about
Madrid (I presume you mean Toledo as Madrid isn't founded yet) and the other cities might be centres of good living but they aren't regions and their wider regions vary widely. The rest of Castilla around Toledo for example much like today is empty and dry. Not bad for reasons of wars long past but not any kind of HDI paradise. Lmao on Yuan and Delhi. Your whole post was just wanting to be contrarian.

>>2080452
>no one said Constantinople
What the fuck, it was, literally, THE CITY at that time.

>>2080970
Took a while to get the prompt down but I think the AI really cooked with this one.

>>2079067
It's literally Johan

>>2081015
Based, I KNEEL

>>2081015
>>2081022
The reason why EU5 is gonna bna be great is because he prizes /vst/ over all other sites

>>2080684
>>2080983
>Madrid
>Toledo
It was Seville, actually. Seville was the most populated city in Iberia until the 1600s and the only city that connected Spain with the Americas. It was the economical capital of the Spanish Empire.

>>2080998
Nice bait

>>2081002
Hope the game doesn't have EU4 style tech spread where Africa is advanced as Europe all game.

>>2081034
Bottom right looks like a Dune spinoff

>>2080452
Given that education makes up something like a third of the HDI it'd probably be whichever region was closest to having some sort of proto public schooling.

>>2080696
Development is just how much population the place can support.

>>2081064
It's supposed to be the level of non-building infrastructure in a location that supports population. Like residential buildings and sanitary systems. But I don't think they actually researched that, they just scaled it with starting population and called it a day

>>2080970
Post more with the japanese lady

>>2081039
that's china and cairo yeah

>>2080998
>Constantinople
>in 1337
Lol. It was a fucking village when the Ottomans found it.

>>2080998
Sorry Venice destroyed the city in 1204 for money.

>>2081027
>>2081084
>>2081097
Retards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B-ddXKAWGU&t=200s

>>2081108
>Population 100k
Bullshit.

>>2081108
Fuck, I didn't consult youtube... I'm such a fucking fool... I'm sorry, I've been owned scholar-sama, I kneel

>>2081108
>Constantinople
>1337
>Turkish Flag
I KNEEL Youtube-sama.

>>2081076
Did cairo really have public schools? (studying the quran doesnt count)

>>2081111
>>2081114
>YouTube
Well, the sources here basically show the same:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_cities_in_history

>>2081121
no I meant the administrator and bureaucrat education bit

>>2078908
Is there a currently-existing leak or compendium of all nations and flags?

>>2080854
>education (mean years of schooling completed and expected years of schooling upon entering the education system)
Ah, that's why so many countries were so autistic about getting people into collage and university and therefore utterly fucked the value of credentials.
Is there a single thing the Paki has not ruined?

>>2081122
>wikipedia

>>2081170
>and therefore utterly fucked the value of credentials
That's only a murrican problem, or even an anglo one at most. In other regions of the world, credentials still hold value.

>>2081068
Who the fuck is Stefan Vonboe?

>>2081207
old 4channer who works at paradox now and inserted a bull meme in one of their videos

>>2081122
Your link shows that there were 19 cities that were larger at the time. Retard

>>2081153
They did mostly use the Quran as the primary source for their law and bureaucracy. The school in Cairo (Al-Azhar) was pretty similar to China and Korea schools which mostly just study Confucian classics and not a scientific institution like University of Bologna. Islamic center of science like was in decline since Sunni orthodoxy was enforced by the Seljuks and basically dead since the sack of Baghdad by Mongols.

>>2081108
It was a shitty little fishing village at the time thanks to the epic trolling the latins did

Cope, seethe and dilate byzanshill

>>2081039
Yeah that's Yuan, Delhi and the Mamluks

>>2078708 (OP)
Two big ass nations whose only purpose is gonna be razed by Steppe BVLLS

>>2081422
lol

>>2081425
Sorry honky but the euroid subcontinent was a massive shithole at the time

>>2081427
love the browny cope

>>2081428
no he's correct at the start of the game Europe is still in the shithole stage of uneducated serfs toiling for meagre gains. it won't be until the potatoe arrives that Europe really starts to catapult its HDI into the stratosphere

>>2081438
>shithole stage of uneducated serfs toiling for meagre gains
the entire world was like this with the difference of europe having a proper wide spread school system and universities

>>2081438
Even China was mostly like this in the late 50s, which is the entire reason Mao did his whole thing.
The whole reason people go for the idea that Europe was especially backwards is to challenge 1800s versions of racism.

Now what IS true is that high medieval period European science was mostly translating Greek and Arabic texts. On the other hand, ask yourself. Does translating Arabic texts seem like a backwards thinking? That type of work is important even in modern universities. Let's go further with the thinking. What did Japan's rapid industrialization look like? Is Japan a backwater?

>>2081421
Brown post

>>2081427
>muh islamic golden age
>baghdad gets btfo, islamic world never recovers
>mongol-run china is about to implode and be reunited again
Was there anywhere in the world that was decent in 1337?

I didn't expect my post to receive such recension
Thanks anons

>>2081669
South America

>>2081669
If we go by the logic that Europe wasn't, the answer is a clear no. If we go by evidence, everything points towards Northern Italy being pretty nice at this time. Problem is that people have a narrative to tell when they broach the topic.

I'll give an example. You have laws in Europe prohibiting the sale of rotten meat. This provides no real information to a person who is interested in truth. It's a rather mundane fact, you wouldn't want to allow the sale of rotten meat. A person spinning a narrative will take something absolutely stupid out of it, like the fact that Europeans ate rotten meat. This isn't a hypothetical, it's a real example.

>>2081445
>with the difference of europe having a proper wide spread school system and universities
There was no "wide spread school system" and as for universities plenty of other regions had them as well.

>>2081781
>There was no "wide spread school system"
oh but there was though, europe was filled with cathedral and monastic schools
>as for universities plenty of other regions had them as well.
name one

>>2081790
>europe was filled with cathedral and monastic schools
Well if you're going by that criteria then every country between Ireland and Japan had at least one kind of it.
>name one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_higher-learning_institutions

>>2081813
>Well if you're going by that criteria then every country between Ireland and Japan had at least one kind of it.
no system is equal though, some places outside of europe had proper schools but not systimatically wide spread as in europe
they lacked the monastic traditions of sharing knowledge
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_higher-learning_institutions
bro surely you can name one non-european university

>>2081828
That article names many of them.

>>2081831
kek you know that you lost because you know that all these "univesities" got their title in the last 100 years and were just shitty mosques and law schools before

>>2081834
The word university wasn't even invented when China already have a bureaucratic society that employed tens of thousands of highly educated bureaucrats educated in mathematics, law, philosophy and arts, just the same as any western university. Just because they didn't call their schools a university doesn't make it a school.

>>2081840
>educated in mathematics, law, philosophy and arts
thats a school, don't think you understand what made universities so special

>>2081860
Please provide a formal definition then

>>2081840
Acquaint yourself with the term "trivium"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivium
Students in European universities had completed their trivium studies, which is similar to what you're referring to.

>>2081965
Someone finishing that wouldn't be qualified to be an administrator so it's clearly not on the same level. It's also not an university.

>>2081973
>It's also not an university.
This is the kind of response that tells me you're hung up more on wanting to be right than wanting to know the truth. It was a test and you failed.
Now look up quadrivium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrivium

What point am I making here? I'm asking because you don't have the necessary information to know. You're inferring incorrectly, and that's on purpose on my part.

>>2081979
You aren't making a point, what you have posted so far is what you could study in China just as well. Please provide a formal definition of university because based on your examples either China has universities or Europe didn't, honestly hard to say which one is your argument.

>>2081982
What is the argument? I'm purposefully not saying it to snap you out of your retardation. You're arguing before you know what I'm saying.

>>2081986
I take it you are conceding then? I should stress that "you can't guess my argument" is an incredibly retarded way of trying to win an argument.

EU5?

>>2081987
I think you should sit on this moment. You are arguing against me when I've yet to make a statement.
Who's the retard here?

>>2081990
You are responding to me
>bro surely you can name one non-european university
Got blown out here
>>2081831
Then this
>>2081834
Got blown out here
>>2081840
and so on. I accept the concession though.

>>2081995
This was my first post on the topic. >>2081965
You were being a fool in response. It's possible I was being a fool, but that just means there's two fools.
You are just double the fool if you don't get the point I made just now. Nobody cares if you're right, nobody cares if you're wrong. You're retarded for arguing for the sake of arguing. I've yet to say anything meaningful.

>>2081996
That post was blown out here
>>2081973

>>2081998
No it wasn't. It was a retarded "response" when you don't know what I'm even getting at.

This post
>>2082001
Is blown out in this post, check this post for details.
>>2081998

>>2082007
Do you want me to tell you the trick I played on you?

>>2082021
I called you a retard and you turned out to be a retard. That's not a trick, that's just you being retarded.

>>2082022
The organization to trivium/quadrivium and scholastic philosophy vs Confucian texts, history and poetry is one of the key differences between the institutions. This post >>2081965 is purposefully incorrect and you would've called it out if you understood the topic. You didn't.

>>2082024
It did get blown out in the next post.

>>2082027
So do you understand the point I was making? I still haven't written it explicitly.

>>2082033
So far all of your posts have been blown out and have been frankly retarded. If you wish to make a point you can do so. I do accept your concession however.

>>2082034
>China already have a bureaucratic society that employed tens of thousands of highly educated bureaucrats
This is as intelligent as me saying
>Europe had highly liberal society that employed tens of thousand of highly educated rhetoricians and logicians

You don't know what I'm saying, and you try to contradict my words with things that don't contradict what I'm putting forth. You are mistaken on the idea that I'm contradicting. Instead of telling you outright, I gave you MULTIPLE chances to realize this on your own. You didn't.

>>2082041
I legitimately do not know what you are saying because what you are writing has been blown out and yet you keep posting more retard babble. That point was already blown out. So concession accept again.

>>2082045
I'm trying to make your retarded ass realize that you're arguing with ghosts, but you're genuinely too stupid to understand that concept.

>>2082050
I'm arguing with the post I respond to. The fact that you keep responding to me with retarded shit that I blow out isn't my problem it's yours.

>>2081073
She's Chinese, actually.
>>2081989
What's that?

>>2082051
Do you understand the concept of "arguing with ghosts"? Why have I consistently been questioning your interpretation?

>>2082055
Do you understand the concept of meme arrows and numbers in 4 chan posts. It means that that post is addressing that other post. When I blow your post out it's addressed to that particular post.

>>2082061
Do you understand what the following set of words strung together mean?
>What point am I making here? I'm asking because you don't have the necessary information to know. You're inferring incorrectly, and that's on purpose on my part.

>>2082064
Yes that was blown out here
>>2082061
Which kinda demonstrates that you do not know what meme arrows and numbers mean if you can't puzzle this stuff together.

>>2082066
What if I told you my point was that you're correct?

>>2082070
I would tell you that every post you have made so far has still been blown out except that one. I have accepted your concession several times which I clearly have to tell you multiple times.

>>2082072
That's a contradiction. You're blown out if my point is blown out. You are wrong if I'm wrong.

>>2082075
That's not a contradiction, that's another +1 to the blown out counter.

>>2082078
Did you actually familiarize yourself with the trivium and quadrivium studies? Or did you assume it was disagreement with you like a RETARD?

>>2082080
I blew out that point in the post after you brought them up, I explicitly called you out for being a retard at that point too.

>>2082081
You never considered what I agree with you on. You're so focused on your whole angle that you can't understand that "btfoing" me does nothing for you or your point. It means you've been arguing against air at best, and at worst, it means you btfo yourself.
So were you arguing with air or did you btfo yourself?

>>2082082
I merely blew out your posts and I explicitly asked you to make a better point if you weren't happy with the result. You continued posting garbage, I continued blowing it out like I did here again.

>>2082086
Next time, don't repeat the same mistake you made.

>>2081648
Enrico Dandolo (PBUH) did nothing wrong

>>2082090
Responding to a retard is generally a mistake but personally blowing you out was enjoyable, perhaps you learned a bit from this interaction.

>>2081684
England was pretty nice at the time even if they were poor as fuck.

Why does this retard keep repeating "blow up" again and again? Is it autism?
I'm not going to read the whole convo because it looks like two schoolchildren arguing.

>>2082094
I do believe you. It's why you do this song and dance instead of recognizing that you didn't consider that people replying to you don't automatically disagree with everything you say. It's at least more flattering than the alternative explanations of your erratic behavior.

>>2082099
I did consider that, I simply blew out your posts. If you find a fault in that process make different posts that aren't blown out so easily.

>>2082098
Because when I defeat someones argument and they respond by being retarded I don't see any reason to respond further except by stating that that part was already blown out until they make a new argument, so far he hasn't said anything of substance so he simply gets blown out over and over again.

>>2082101
>I did consider that
Simply incorrect.

>>2082103
That's false

>>2082104
Yes, I said that statement was false. Very good.

>>2082107
Concession accepted

>>2082053
This is the gayest shit I've ever seen. I'd expect to see this on xiaohongshu.

>>2082108
Next time, consider it. It's kind of hilariously deranged that you want to wrestle about it like this if you actually did consider it.

>>2082111
See
>>2082108

>>2082113
I wish I was just wrong so I had a reason to concede

>>2082117
You are wrong and have actively conceded and I have accepted your concession

>>2082121
Have you considered that you might have better results if you were just open to normal conversation?

>>2082126
I blew out all your posts, I don't see how I could have better results than that. Have you considered conceding earlier in situations like this or if you prefer not to get blown out simply not make retarded posts?

>>2082128
Do you normally converse by just blowing people?

you guys are so autistic

>>2082130
Do you normally pretend to be retarded continuously even after being blown out?

>>2082133
You can post it 10 million times, I'm not going to believe it more. I'm just going to laugh at the fact that you're still trying instead of doing the easy thing and just being genuine.

>>2082136
I know, that's why I'm calling you a retard, retards do retarded shit more news at 11.

>>2082139
Why do you sound like you're trying to convince yourself? Is it the random purposeless insults you keep throwing around?

>>2082143
Because you are retarded and possibly illiterate. I think the fact that you don't understand how post quotes work kinda attests to the later.

>>2082144
I'm guessing the random insults are a factor. I have a hard time believing you realize how they come off.

>>2082147
It's not random when it's accurate and correct. If you don't like being called retarded, try not acting like a retard.

>>2082148
I don't mind either way. It's just that I'm pretty sure you're unaware of the energy you're projecting with them.

>>2082150
Retards usually don't mind, that's kinda a feature of the whole thing

>>2082151
I'm guessing you didn't believe it when I said it. Your post is nonsense at this point. Do you pick up that I'm never going to mirror your energy?

>>2082153
Concession accepted again I guess.

>>2082156
Right, what does a concession mean in this context?

>>2082157
See the chain

>>2082159
The question remains. What does a concession even mean in this context?

>>2082160
I just answered your question. What's the issue?

>>2082161
That just means the answer is nothing. It's absolutely void of meaning. Is it something you say when you run out of things to say?

>>2082164
Sorry that's wrong, please work on your reading comprehension.

>>2082166
Nah, it's correct and you can't prove otherwise. You could've just been genuine said "I've got nothing to say to you" and that would've wrapped up the conversation well.

>>2082168
>prove
It's written in the posts. It's by definition proven

>>2082172
proven to be nothing at most

>>2082174
Concession accepted I guess.

>>2082176
Here's a less insecure way of saying the same thing:
I've said what I said. I have nothing more to say to you.

>>2082178
Concession accepted I guess.

>>2082181
>>2082178
I accept both of your concessions.
I have the last word so I win, while putting in none of the effort.
Sorry, but you've been blown out now. Concession accepted.

>>2082190
That's false though, you always put in enough effort for 1 post which is the same effort someone else just put in or has to put in to counter you, like thus. At least that's more clever ploy than the pretending to be retarded strategy the other guy used.

Autism.

Based autists.

I personally agree with the EVROPA guy though. The value of studying matters on what's studied more than the act of studies themselves and Confucian classics don't hold up versus the strengthening European scholastic scenes. All this is moot however considering China is about to get RAPED with the collapse of the Yuan anyway so for the HDI discussion it's still Northern Italy (followed IMO by the Nile Delta).

>>2082109
Too low quality for that, I would expect it in the Twitter of an Indian or in some sort of danbooru clone with 0 moderation.

>>2082230
I read this book recently called "1587: A Year of No Significance". It explained a lot about why the seemingly rich, powerful, centralized Ming was actually a weak and ineffectual state barely clinging to life. Nurhaci pretty much mercy-killed them.
Part of it was the immense focus on Confucian classics and the countless court ceremonies. It was like the ceremony itself was more important than actually getting things done, and projecting moral purity was more important than actually doing moral actions. And the only moral foundation everyone could agree on was the Four Books, so that was what everyone learned.

>>2082244
Interesting. I've always read the Ming as what would happened if the Severan dynasty of Rome somehow created a China in their own image. Overmilitarisation in reaction to the military failures of their predecessors with an internal family prescript to trust no one but each other and the military, only to then have a bad tendency to turn on each other and lose the trust of the military.

>>2082244
That's how things tend to develop, performance overtakes substance in the absence of real competition competition. You can see that anywhere for instance corporate culture which inevitably degenerates as the company achieves market dominance and becomes incestious and cancerous and the company then sinks when it has burned all the assets it managed to build up over it's domination. It's not the base lessons that cause that but hegemony without peer competition. Romans would have suffered the same fate and realistically were already suffering from same problems when they got memed, they just fell earlier due to stronger rivals.

Empires always fall when the best are most richly rewarded by plundering the empire instead of making it bigger or better, which inevitably happens as the empire gets bigger and better and it's rivals weaker and worse. A general will always inevitably realize that conquering yet another shithole is less important than marching to the capital and taking over. Or a bureaucrat figures that just stealing shit is easier than working hard etc.

>>2082253
From what I understood, in the late Ming there was zero trust in the military out of paranoia over military coups. So they were chronically underfunded and pushed out of the way. Even as pirates were raiding all over the place. There's a chapter about this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Jiguang
Who was a pretty competent general that succeeded against the wokou pirates. But then they describe his book of tactics and it's about formations including bamboo trees as weapons... the Ming had gunpowder technology but couldn't effectively adopt it, because it would've run counter to the entire decentralized system they set up. In the rest of Asia you had "gunpowder empires" wielding strong internal power through their centralized control of munitions production, but in the Ming everything was decentralized. So military procurement was like
>central government assigns quotas to provincial officials
>officials outsource this to locals
>local districts have to produce a certain amount
>this leads to many small batches of shitty quality
>the muskets are described as "having a tendency to explode"
>probably several layers of corruption on each intermediate level

The whole thing is a tragicomedy, because no matter how competent one individual could be, the whole system was immovable and impossible to fix.
Despite being probably the best general they had, he was connected to a certain corrupt eunuch and was dismissed after said eunuch fell from grace. Regardless of his merits, he was "Zhang Juzheng's guy" so when Zhang Juzheng fell he had to inevitably be found guilty of something and purged. It's like a form of partisanship, or something out of the Soviet system.

>>2082256
>Romans would have suffered the same fate and realistically were already suffering from same problems when they got memed, they just fell earlier due to stronger rivals.
This is my favorite theory about why the Great Divergence happened. After the Roman Empire fell, Europe was never effectively united again so it became an arena of intense competition between countless powers, especially the region of the former Lotharingia running from the Low Countries down to Tuscany. And that eventually led to the development of things like competitive capitalism, colonialism, scientific advances, etc. Pic related is where I read that idea.

>>2082230
Nile Delta being that high is an exaggeration imo. They aren't any different with the Chinese in terms of what they studied, just replace Confucian classics with Quran and Muhammad's sayings (Hadith). Islamic Golden Age was carried by Persian Polymaths and they weren't in good shape during that era.

>>2082244
>if the dynasty did not collapse at this point it was largely because no alternative to it existed
same

I think it's pretty undisputed that Britain (more specifically South East England) had the highest HDI in 1337. They already had two of the oldest and most prestigious univerisities in Europe (Oxford, Cambridge), they had no war ravaging their lands, they were rich from the wine trade in Acquitane and trading of lowland goods through Calais (and more importantly shielded from the HYW by the English channel), the people enjoyed a more developed legal system and rights than anywhere else in Europe at that time due to the magna carta and parliament.

Honestly the fact no one has said this yet goes to show how poisoned this thread is by seething brown third worlders who simply can't stand to see the other fellow win.

>>2082310
It's true, Britain has been the leading light of post-roman civilisation continuously since the days of the venerable Bede
Continentals would rather die than admit it though

>>2082288
>They aren't any different with the Chinese in terms of what they studied, just replace Confucian classics with Quran and Muhammad's sayings (Hadith). Islamic Golden Age was carried by Persian Polymaths and they weren't in good shape during that era.
Education is a large part of HDI but not the entirety. I rank the Nile Delta high based off the absolute fertility of the Delta and the ease of farming it. The per capita gains on a subsistence society would be immense and hunger as a section of pre-modern mortality would be somewhat lower aiding life expectancy.

>>2082310
The HDI discussion is a meme since life expectancy at birth makes up a third of the score, and that was dogshit across the entire globe at this time. Everywhere was a shithole where you flip a coin when a child is born, and if it lands on tails they die before age 15. Squabbling over who did their local religious indoctrination better to add a few decimal points here or there is missing the forest for the trees. "human development" as we know it didn't even properly begin until the 1700s, at the earliest.

>>2082322
>life expectancy
>europe
>1337
uh oh

>>2082361
probably higher than in the rest of the world

>>2082382
I was referring to the black death.

>>2082322
I mean life expectency was shit but you'd still expect it to differ from place to place especially depending on more local disasters, and I imaging GNI per capita would also differ depending on local fertility and similar. I wouldn't put too much stock into any actual numbers though so trying to quantify it with a measure like HDI is a bit pointless. Okay area A had better agriculture and worse education than area B which has the higher HDI? Who the fuck knows because it depends on the baseline numbers to begin with.

>>2082384
HDI is the geometric mean of life expectancy at birth, per capita GNI, and years of education. The first two are almost the same in every settled region for thousands of years until ~1700 and completely dwarfed by the exponential growth that came with industrialization. The last one is basically a useless metric when projected back before the contemporary era it was invented for. So yeah technically if you made up some numbers and plugged them in, maybe shithole A beats shithole B by 0.001 points, but it doesn't tell you anything useful.

>>2082288
>''Islamic'' Golden Age
But it was Islamic, though. Islamic ≠ Arab, no matter how much the goatfuckers want to argue otherwise.

>>2082412
What language is the quran in?

I sincerely apologise for starting the HDI discussion

I should've kept that one to myself

>>2082433
It's okay anon, you didn't have a rigorous quranic education so you weren't smart enough to know this would happen :^)

>>2082437
Islam is the most retarded of the already retarded Abrahamic religions

Europe somehow made Christianity bearable by fusing it with neoplatonic thought

>>2082416
Arab, so? What language were the books that created the Bible?

>>2082443
Believe it or not, Arab.

>>2080983
>Madrid isn't founded yet
Madrid didn't became the seat of the court until 1561, but it exists since at least the 12th century, and probably was founded centuries earlier during the moorish period.

>>2082447
Retard. Arabs were not even a thing in the Levant at that time. And a lot of the original books were written in Aramaic and Greek.

>>2082449
no no arabs did live in the non-coastal non-aramaic parts of arabia

>>2082448
Thanks.

>>2081669
SEA

>>2082552
The jungle in there was full of cannibal headhunting tribes and if you read the what the Chinese wrote about their journey to there, the city dwellers ain't much better at all.

>The people of the country, both men and women, are all particular about their heads; if a man touches their head with his hand, or if there is a misunderstanding about money at a sale, or a battle of words when they are crazy with drunkenness, they at once pull out these knives and stab [each other]. He who is stronger prevails.’ When [one] man is stabbed to death, if the [other] man runs away and conceals himself for three days before emerging, then he does not forfeit his life; [but] if he is seized at the very moment [of the stabbing], he too is instantly stabbed to death.

>>2082452
>non-coastal non-aramaic parts of arabia
So the peninsula?

>>2082585
no I meant the levant
cities like palmyrene were arabic-speaking even in antiquity

>>2082716

>>2081669
Ironically? The Mayan Peninsula. The Mayan city-states were past their prime, but they still were stable enough to exist for a long time. They were basically minding their own business business in those years.

>>2082447
Greek, retarded mongo

>>2082310
Lmao

>>2082750
Wasn't their entire worldview based on violence and warfare? That doesn't sound very comfy to me.

>>2082756
He's right that Britain was doing well for itself (and that British early advancements are often ignored as people don't like them heaping even more glory on themselves in light of their later advancements) but none of what's listed would make the UK the standout nor was England untouched by conflict and drain with the recently concluded (and expensive) Second War of Scottish Independence and the upcoming 100 Years War in sight. I still maintain it's Northern Italy followed by the production bonanza that would have been the Nile Delta personally.

>>2081869
It's a higher place of learning. The university is a living, lively institution focused on passing down and improving knowledge. Professionals who graduated at european universities were part of an order (like what happens today), and the professor were part of a continental network.

It's not a madrasa. It's not a chinese bureaucracy school.

>>2081813
>the ancient-learning institution 100 years later
Yeah.

>>2082765
All of that applies to China though.

>>2082765
I'd argue that you could've just described a Chinese institution. What set western universities apart is a larger degree of independence from the state apparatus and the dialectical nature of knowledge. I'll try to point out what each system did better than the other. I would consider both higher learning. Chinese institutions passed down higher knowledge in a (theoretically) meritocratic manner. On the other hand, European universities (theoretically) encouraged dialectic. Instead of memorization, it was more structured around debate and disputation. One has you learning classical works, the other has you learning debate, logic and rhetoric.

>>2082761
>none of what's listed would make the UK the standout
Would you like to point to a single other country on Earth with two universities of the caliber of Oxford and Cambridge at this time?
>nor was England untouched by conflict and drain with the recently concluded (and expensive) Second War of Scottish Independence and the upcoming 100 Years War in sight.
Neither of those brought warfare to the home counties. The closest was cross border raids in the very north of England.
>I still maintain it's Northern Italy followed by the production bonanza that would have been the Nile Delta personally.
Both hotbeds of wars at this time which obviously isn't conducive to high standards of living.

>>2082875
>Neither of those brought warfare to the home counties. The closest was cross border raids in the very north of England.
But which both drained enormous amounts of treasure and had a disproportionate investment in terms of lives at their most successful. The Mongols don't need to be at the gates for their ravaging actions to have knock-on effects on you.
>Would you like to point to a single other country on Earth with two universities of the caliber of Oxford and Cambridge at this time?
France? Orléans, Provence and Paris (as represented in the modern Sorbonne) all at the very least equalled those two with Paris most likely ahead as the pseudo-founding university of the two. And you know this is a retarded bait question as the issue isn't the university but forcing them within one country when most states look nothing like their post-Westphalian forms or are general regions.
>Both hotbeds of wars at this time which obviously isn't conducive to high standards of living.
This straight up isn't true for the Nile Delta and for Italy the wars of the period came nothing close to the deprivation of later conflicts in terms of their affects on the life expectancy of the average person - which is what HDI measures nor did said wars radically alter the wealth of the region.

>>2082244
They were lucky to survive Esen Taishi, the last time the emperor was captured by northern invaders the Song lost the entire north

>>2083072
What actual data are you looking at?

I wanna play as an indian nation and rape all white bitches in europe

>>2083146
All the data, quite frankly some of the data is on levels we haven't even seen before. And it's happening in big ways, right across the board.

>>2083162
Many people are saying this.

>>2081159
Most you'll get is the hre screen

>>2083146
For what? There's obviously no data for HDI back then so I'm doing personal calculations on per capita wealth (which tbf isn't GDP) and eyeballing life expectancy. Europe as a whole gets boosted for having the only real scholastic system as has been discussed above but the Nile Delta is comically productive that per capita (and imo real wealth for the average individual) goes up a good bit.

>>2082760
Nah, those were the nahua city states, not the maya, which were big nerds and only came into destructive conflicts when resources got scarce due to a change in climate.

>>2082441
>Europe somehow made Christianity bearable by fusing it with neoplatonic thought
It also made all past actions of God seemingly schizoid by making him both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. So you lose, you win some.

>>2083350
>omnipotent and omnibenevolent
Makes one ponder.

So can we get this piece of shit released yet? I've been maintaining this boner for like a whole year now and it's starting to hurt pretty bad.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-70-2nd-of-july-2025.1823383/

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will talk about another very impactful early-game situation: the Hundred Years’ War!

Historically, the war started when, in May 1337, Philip VI confiscated the Duchy of Aquitaine from Edward III of England, for the reason of breaching his obligations as a vassal, which was responded to by Edward III claiming the throne of France by the rights of his mother, Isabella of France - the situation was way more complicated than this, so let’s leave the historical events here.

In our game, a couple of months after the start of the game (so, in June 1337), this event will trigger to France:

While this is the English point of view:

>>2083287
So it's based on vibes.

If the historical options are followed (which is set to always happen to AI countries), this will happen:

And it will also trigger the situation:

The starting situation of the Hundred Years’ War, with the French and English subjects. You can notice the striped vassals, which mean that these are disloyal subjects.

>>2083413
If the English had just accepted that they were under the throne of France the world would be a better place.

As you see, each contender has its own set of objectives:

You can also see that there’s a Strength comparison:

Note: Numbers are a matter of balance, so please consider them WIP.

With the situation and claims in place, it’s just a matter of time before one of the sides declares war on the other:

Something interesting is that each war is considered a ‘phase’ of the situation, so until it ends, any war between France and England will be considered ‘the 1st Phase’, ‘the 2nd Phase’, and so on:

The Situation panel will also refresh when the war starts, so you can quickly check there everything related to it:

Let’s talk now about the actions. There’s a common action that any of the sides can do, if the war has lasted for longer than 4 years, that requests the Pope to enforce a white peace among the contenders:

The most important are those related to the French subjects; the objective for France will be to rein them in and have them contribute to the war effort in the conflict phases, while for England, it will be about convincing them to abandon the French king in the peace phases:

The French subjects have their own gameplay and actions, related to their relationship with the French sovereign, and if they stay loyal to them, or not:

So, at the end of the day, one of the contenders will probably be strong enough to defeat the other. In the case of France, it’s straightforward: No more independent English presence in the continent. In the case of England, beside pure conquest, the ‘Claim of Throne of France’ peace goal requests:

England (or their subjects) must control more than 15% of the ownable locations in the French Region
England must control the capital of France

The cost of this treaty also depends on 2 factors:

A base cost
A fluctuating cost based entirely on the relative strength between the two countries. So, a stronger England would inevitably make this peace treaty option somewhat cheaper.

And that’s it on the mechanical part of the situation; but there are also a bunch of events, both random and historical, that are dependent on it:

And that’s all for today! We will come back on Friday, as we will talk in Tinto Flavour about France!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!

So will there be Burgundian content?

>>2083434
SHUT UP

Ive never seen art as shite as this

>>2083435
It's funny how a line descended from the youngest son of a French King briefly became the bane of a most senior line.

I'm shocked they went straight to the main characters of EU5 like this

They haven't even shown Poland, the Mamluks, or Yuan yet

>>2083466
>I'm shocked they went straight to the main characters of EU5 like this
They are saving Castile for last.

>>2083471
Unironically though, if Portugal, Castile, France, England, and Austria the main characters of EU5 content-wise PDX will be making a huge mistake

>>2083475
Huh? We know what the most played nations for this sort of era is. I think the Romans are going to be more popular for Eu5 compared to 4 but other than that the popularity is going to be pretty much the same.

>>2083342
They all came from the same base civilization and they were just as brutal as the nahuas. Thinking that they were somehow a peaceful civilization is just wishful thinking from Mayaboos because their conquest didn't have epic tales and they couldn't afford to large scale human sacrifices anymore by then.

>>2083434

>>2083421
>Can you please explain what's going on in this image? I'm confused how these various numbers work together.
>Why do you add France's 45 to England's 16 to get 61? Why is there not a +11 from 61-50?

1. The +45 and +16 are each side's allies; those numbers are hoverable in-game:

2. All the other score numbers are also hoverable tooltips, with more detailed information.

>>2083499
yeah the more we know about the game the clearer it is that 1337 was a mistake
hope fully it wont take too many years for a second startdate

>>2083504
>1337 was a mistake.
>Because we won't have fucking burgundy at game start.
Lmao, you start date fags are comical.

>>2078708 (OP)
Have they talked about the reformation at all?

>>2083517
Tinto Talks #60 (Papal Conclave/Reformation/Trent)
Tinto Talks #61 (Protestants)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-60-23rd-of-april-2025.1736924/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-61-30th-of-april-2025.1738380/

>>2083508
just one of many things you braindamaged turd

Can't wait to play an Indian nation and shove big desi cock onto white pussy once I conquer the euroid subcontinent

imagine being born indian

>>2083494
I didn't say they were peaceful (the only civilization who was ever close to being peaceful, the moriori, got absolutely and utterly genocided) just argued against their entire cosmovision being based on violence and warfare.

The "base" civilization mesoamericans came from was the olmecs which wasn't even close to being as brutal as the nahuas, so please, if you don't know about something, refrain from sharing your uninformed opinion, thank you.

>>2083494
>>2083556
I misread "They all came from the same base civilization and they were just as brutal as the nahuas" as "They all came from the same base civilization which was just as brutal as the nahuas.", my apologies.

The maya city states were only close to being as brutal as the nahua city states during their collapse, besides that, even during their peak - warfare to obtain sacrifices was never as important as the nahua tradition of periodic ritual wars.

>>2083426
Can you impregnate that cutie?

>>2083536
A videogame is as close as you'll get sukdeep

>>2083361
>is he able, but not willing?
>then he is malevolent
How? If you see an insect killing another insect you're perfectly able to stop it but you don't, does that make you malevolent?

>>2083636
If you were omnipotent yet decided to create a universe that requires beings to kill each other (thus inflict suffering on others to stop suffering themselves), then yes, you would be pretty malevolent.

>>2083644
Would eternal life not be more malevolent?

>>2083361
how did this nigga come up with this when greeks had no concept of an all powerful omnipotent god?
>jews
a tiny minority, about as relevant to greek philosophy as christians were to indian philosophy

>>2083644
"suffering" is just a consequence of change, without nothing would exist

>>2083499
If French vassals have no heirs will they be directly annexed into France though? Because I suspect they'll just get auto-gened a new ruler like in EU4.

>>2083681
escheating should be a mechanic IMO

>>2083691
Would be hella unbalanced though. Day 1 microing your vassals to marry hags.

>>2083704
>micromanaging milf marriages
I will now buy your game

>>2083744
>tfw aging out of being into "milfs" and now just into women "my own age"
feels bad man

>>2083661
He didn't, it was Lactantius who attributed it to him five centuries later because Epicureans were still influential during his time.

>>2083499
yeah this is kind of like how none of the early access videos show timurids ever EVER conquering persia. I mean I am all for not hard scripting things like this, allowing them to happen through the mechanics albeit unlikely, but.. cant they just MAKE it more likely though?

>>2083492
The Romans? You mean the Holy Roman Emperor or the Pope?

>>2083771
I'm in two minds about historical railroading. On one hand I want it because it's based and these games should be history simulators but on the other "railroading" in EU4 is dogshit. There are a dozen different things you have to do at the start to even give yourself a chance of getting the Burgundian inheritance, and even then it's still mainly based on reloading at start for rivals and hoping RNG doesn't fuck you in the ass.

Railroading should be like modded Victoria 2.

>>2083415
Yep. Aside from per capita wealth I do apologise if I made it seem I was being purely academic.

>>2083790

>>2083361
God is just acting as a "witness" to our reality. If he interfered, that would mean free will is useless.

>>2083492
Honestly Byz is probably not as fun in this game. The fun in EU4 was the reversal of fortune, pulling a turnabout out of your ass when the Ottomans are about 100x stronger than you. But they buffed byz countless times over the years and it became less fun.
In EU5 they're still just one of several regional powers and the ERE still has a decent amount of territory. I think on the starting date Byzantium is actually technically stronger than the Ottomans? And realistically, a player isn't going to lose to Serbia as bad as what happened IRL. Realistically a player isn't going to lose a bunch of civil wars. They aren't going to let the earthquake in gallipoli do anything, etc.
Though at the same time, it seems like the Timurids never bother the beyliks much, so maybe the Turks can contest you faster than in real life.

>>2083499
Good. Burgundyfags are almost as annoying as Byzantoboos if not more.

>>2083681
Burgundy was not just a regular vassal, but an appanage, so different rules of succession.

>>2083865
>I think on the starting date Byzantium is actually technically stronger than the Ottomans
Shoutout to John VI. Hope he burns with Andronikos I.

>>2083413
>>2083414
Honestly, how longer could England have kept their French colonies if they didn't start the HYW?

>>2083939
>colonies
10/10

>>2083939
Aside from a token presence in Normandy, Gascony was the last French land the English had. And despite Edward paying homage to the French king as a vassal for Gascony, Philip decided to try and seize it anyway. There's nothing more the English could've done to keep French land, because their holding French land was the cause for war to begin with. It was either surrender their last significant holding, or rebel against their liege.
Remember that on paper, England should've gotten stomped. Even after peeling several vassals over to their side as allies, they couldn't make any real headway for almost a decade. It was only after an absurd string of victories that decimated the French nobility and ended with their king in bondage that they acquired all that French land they have in EU4.
It's hard for a video game to portray these kinds of asymmetrical wars between AI countries so they seem to have buffed England for balance purposes. Kind of like how they buff Germany in HoI4 so the war isn't a joke.

>>2083956
I still wonder what would have happened if Henry V lived longer and actually managed to rule as King of France for a few decades.

>>2084058
Wouldn't the seat of power have been transfered to somewhere around Paris since France was simply vastly more populated and wealthier back then ? OTL might have actually been the best outcome for England, they even got to keep the channel islands to this day

>>2084072
You're entirely correct. The highest classes of the English (most notably the royal family itself) considered themselves much more French and would've done exactly that. The Norman conquest of England destroyed half of English culture. Had England 'won' the Hundred Years' War that would've destroyed the other half of English culture.

>>2084082
>Had England 'won' the Hundred Years' War that would've destroyed the other half of English culture.
Based. But to be fair, I have the feeling the Plantagenet would have given England to a cadet branch if they knew ruling England from Paris was becoming too difficult to handle. Either that or you could have ended with a "Wars of the Roses" analogue but with one pretender in England and the other in France.

I don't know about you guys, but whenever I read about the HYW, I always naturally gravitate to the French side and subconsciously begin to root for them, even if I have no connection to France or England in any meaningful way.

Is this normal, or am I committing a historian's logical fallacy by taking sides at all?

>>2084112
Particularly after Agincourt the French are plucky underdogs fighting to get their country back from an invading force so I think it's kind of a natural reaction

>>2083466
>Two shitalian minors whose only purpose is to be partitioned between Castille, France and Austria
>Main characters

Wut??

>>2084171
The English were underdogs, punching well above their weight for most of the HYW. It's somewhat revisionist to portray England as an equal to France during the medieval era. The later dominance of the British Empire can make it difficult to reconcile the fact that England was once considered a relatively weak and backwater kingdom.

>>2084058
>Henry and his descendants pass more and more time handling french affairs in comparison to english ones because France is 5 times more populated and almost an order of magnitude richer than England.
>The high english nobility continues to increase their states in France and thus also gradually have more interest in continental affairs rather than island ones
>After a century or 2 England effectively has a french king and nobility even though "it" technically won the HYW
I can also see english matters becoming more and more abandoned by Henry's descendants because being the king of France means inheriting all of France's geopolitics, and thus having to maintain a strong presence and investment in continental affairs to keep your continental rivals at bay.

>>2084172
I was obviously talking about England and France retard

angloid historians be like
>le HRE is not real
but also
>muh hundred years war
>gunpowder empires
>dark ages

>>2084172
you will never be White
amerimutt retard

>>2084222
no one wants to be a filthy wh*Teoid kek

Place your bets on which nation is gonna be broken
For me it's England being able to completely steamroll the rest of Europe if they manage to blob France

>>2084236
nobody says kek like that in 2025

>>2084236
>he says in a thread about one of the whitest games possible
love the self-hate browny

>>2084238
most testers already said that castile is the strongest since they start without any big disasters

>>2084238
Spain is definitely overtuned. Total population for Castile+Aragon+Navarra+Granada in 1337 is around 8 million, eat Portugal for another 1.3 million. Putting it another way, Iberia has almost as much population as Japan... and Japan's population is also too high.

>>2084258
How big is France's population ingame? I think they might have been the european country with the biggest one back then, or perhaps only behind the HRE. Reflecting that in the game could easily fuck balance though

>>2084259
I ain't adding this all up, but it looks bigger than Iberia. Though much of that is in countries that may betray France early on, like Burgundy, Normandy, Flanders, Brittany. Whereas Castile can probably just eat its smaller neighbors with little interference... Portugal doesn't even start with the English alliance.

>>2084258
>eat Portugal for another 1.3 mi-ACK

>>2084260
Is this the Control Map for France?

>>2084258
>Japan's population is also too high.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Japan_before_the_Meiji_Restoration#Population_before_Edo_era
Looks perfectly fine to me.

>>2084082
>>2084058
Henry V was actually the first Plantagenet monarch who pushed for English to be the court language. Can't see him trying to Anglify the French nobility had he lived long enough to rule over France, however.
>>2084193
>had England won the HYW
The issue is portraying the HYW as England vs France. That's a modern way of thinking that presupposes the existence of nation-States.
The HYW wasn't England vs France, it was the house of Plantagenet vs the house of Valois (plus the other houses allied to each one). The Plantagenets were undisputed kings of England, but the whole point of the war was that the Valois were NOT undisputed kings of France. Throughout the whole war, the Plantagenets styled themselves as rightful kings of France too.
>>2084171
>>2084112
The HYW should be divided into many phases. For the vast majority of it the Plantagenets were the clear underdogs.
If anything, the HYW is itself a phase of the larger conflict between the Plantagenets and the Capetians, after the Battle of Bouvines when John "lackland" lost the Plantagenet holdings in France.
The Plantagenets did many invasions of France prior to the HYW to try to recover their lands there but always got BTFO by the Capetians (pic related).
The string of early victories of Edward III at Sluys (where the LARGER French fleet was defeated) and Crécy was an oddity. Afterwards the English were still largely unable to fund long-term campaigns in France and had to resort mostly to chevauchées (raids). The first one under the Black Prince was VERY successful with the capture of the French king at the battle of Poitiers, however later chevauchées were far less significant. Meanwhile under Charles V the French reorganized and took back their lost territory while England was rule by the ineffective Richard II. All the progress of the great early victories was lost.
Henry V had to start basically from scratch and his campaign was a disaster until the miracle of Agincourt.

Also keep in mind that Plantagenet success didn't end with Agincourt.
For about a decade more the Plantagenets dominated the battlefield, with their last great victory being the far less famous but arguably just as important Verneuil.
The siege of Orléans is the turning point after which the Plantagenets, under the rule of Henry VI, start rapidly lossing territory and all their campaigns to try to regain ground are crushed, such as in the battle of Patay. It turned out that the longbowmen were, in fact, not invincible if the commanding English officers didn't know hot to properly employ them.
After Charles VII signed the Treaty of Arras, by which the Burgundians supported the Valois over the Plantagenets, the result of the war was sealed.

>>2081438
>>2081445
>uneducated serfs toiling for meagre gains
Retarded meme pushed by historylets.
By the 15th century serfdom was virtually nonexistent in Southern England and it would disappear from the North in the 16th century. English peasants were noted to regularly eat meat (mainly fowl and lamb) in the High Middle Ages, switching to beef in the Late Middle Ages.
Read:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chicken-Husbandry-in-Late-Medieval-Eastern-England:-Slavin/cbd2beb0e3648aaea921eed1debf0be5802c1e23

>>2081813
>>2081790
>>2081781
Universities proper, as institutions of learning independent from the ruling monarch and funded by the students themselves, were a uniquely European phenomenon. Universities were notable because they were not top-down forms of learning where the local ruler or church set down what they wanted people to learn, but rather they were collection of individuals who pooled money and resources together to rent or buy spaces and hire teachers for them, and thus it was the students who had control over the curriculum.
Monastic and religious schools were widespread but they were not universities.

And by European phenomenon I mean mostly Western European.

>>2083521
You can customize your own national Protestant church? So that means... my ultra Puritan New England campaign idea can actually become real...

Peakadox.... I kneel

>>2084288
Largely pointless differentiation for 1330, private tutors and other such privately funded institutions existed since time immemorial. What counts is quality and quantity of education, not technicalities of curriculum. "royal academies" or "monastic schools" would and did provide higher quality and wider reaching education than many universities for a long time and from much further back than universities even existed as a concept, it's not like early universities didn't focus on basically the same exact topics you would learn about in a monastic school anyhow. What's more universities definitely weren't independent then and if you use that definition don't even exist in most places at all since they are basically exclusively government funded sans rare exceptions.

>>2084296
And this map is yet another misdirection because it presumably only counts continuously operating ones under some weird definition, the glaring omission is greece and turkey which would have had several institutions for higher learning from pre 1000 like university of Constantinople which ought to have either evolved into the Istanbul university or greek orthodox collage depending on how you want to look at it.
It paints about a similar picture of education if you mapped out first mcdonalds in a country and then labeled the whole thing as "first restaurant in an country".

>>2084309
>university of Constantinople
not a university

>>2084306
I was just explaining what made European medieval universities special.
If you don't care about these specific institutions such as the University of Bologna, Salerno or Paris then aside from them there's little special about the European education system.
>"royal academies" or "monastic schools" would and did provide higher quality and wider reaching education than many universities for a long time
By the late Middle Ages universities were far more prestigious in Western Europe than any other learning institution. The alumni of Bologna pretty much defined the legal system of Northern Italian cities, for example. There's a reason why people like Thomas Aquinas chose to go to Paris to study instead of a church school in Italy, far closer to his home.
>What's more universities definitely weren't independent then
They absolutely were. All the local rulers did was just grant them a charter which basically was a permit to operate without the students being constantly pestered by local authorities.

>>2084309
>like university of Constantinople
You just don't understand what made universities (in the strict sense) special. A school funded and managed by the local emperor to teach people in the skills required to become a bureaucrat is not a university proper.

>>2084311
Irrelevant

>>2084312
>I was just explaining what made European medieval universities special.
Which is irrelevant to the discussion
>By the late Middle Ages universities were far more prestigious in Western Europe than any other learning institution.
Well yes, university is fundamentally just the latin world uses for their highest learning institutions, but that's merely a post hock justification. That's just how the chips were laid dow. In an alt history where British crown took greater control of the univesities and labeled them royal academies you would post the same map saying how "well you see Norway didn't get their royal academy until then and then or University of constantinople was a university not a royal academy". The fact that Greece didn't have a "university" which itself is pretty much arbitrary measure doesn't mean it didn't have education. What the map shows is dominance of western culture not spread of education.
>They absolutely were. All the local rulers did was just grant them a charter which basically was a permit to operate without the students being constantly pestered by local authorities.
That's how administration in general worked in 1300. Pay your taxes and don't chimp out and the authorities don't really bother you. By this definition individual cities were in fact independent because they were mostly unpestered (except when they weren't)

>>2084314
Which is irrelevant. A place that tacos isn't a mcdonalds, that doesn't mean mcdonalds represents the totality or even what is the best restaurant industry has to offer. In a strict sense you have not actually said what you consider a university in a strict sense and what's more according to the definition couple posts above universities don't exist in west anymore. University of Paris gets significant chunk of it's funding from French government thus it's not an university etc.

>>2084190
>The English were underdogs
True, but to be fair, the Kings of England had actually more resources than the Kings of France thanks to them having an already solid and constant tax base, while the French usually had to rely on the goodwill of their vassals who not always were loyal to France but to England, and even if they were loyal, not always paid their dues.

>>2084324
>university is fundamentally just the latin world uses for their highest learning institutions
That's not the medieval sense of the word. You are completely missing the point.
> you have not actually said what you consider a university in a strict sense
I explained it clearly, the distinction lays in the fact that the institution is not created by an authority figure but rather by the students themselves. It's the student body as a whole (the universe of it, hence university) that ruled the institution as a corporation or guild.

Honestly this whole post just reeks of brown inferiority complex
>b-b-b-but we had education too!!!! Look look please look at my country!!!

>>2084329
>You are completely missing the point.
You are missing the point. The topic is about education, not about what constitutes and university. Your definition of what counts as an university doesn't actually equal to what counts as education.
>I explained it clearly, the distinction lays in the fact that the institution is not created by an authority figure but rather by the students themselves. It's the student body as a whole (the universe of it, hence university) that ruled the institution as a corporation or guild.
Which again has the dual problem that such institutions have existed since basically forever. Romans and Greeks for instance relied heavily on private tutors which is the foundation for this whole thing (where an old man teaches you rhetoric, poetry, religion, law and philosophy), if Greece and Italy didn't have these from before 1000's then your definition is automatically wrong or automatically stupid and the fact that it clearly disqualifies all or almost all the institutions on the map because they aren't independent and paid by students themselves but heavily government funded and have been for a long time. Not to mention by this definition there's plenty of universities older than that since factually most universities and other learning institutions in fact do spawn from these sort of local education businesses that then get chartered as you say and expanded. Oxford wasn't just founded on nothing, there were schools and such there before that simply morphed to what they now call oxford university.

>>2084296
>Albania
I am kind of surprised considering how Albania was almost a tribal nation at the times of WW1.

>>2084334
that part was ruled by venice

Can two different building nations be in the same location?

>>2084341
Why shouldn't they?

can we kidnap and rape jean to steal her genes(jeans) as the English?

>>2083636
>humans are....le ants!
I thought man was made in God's visage or something

>>2084400
They did kidnap her irl but they burn her alive and made her a martyr like a retard.

>>2084222
Cope harder wop

what killed the hype?

>>2084434
Changing the focus of dev diaries from mechanics to modifier slop.

>>2084266
It's a racial map.

>>2084190
Weak yes, backwater absolutely not lmao. England was a well centralised kingdom with a strong financialised tax base meaning English kings had far more money than a kingdom their size should have had.

>>2084400
I do wonder what will happen if you manage to win the war as the English before she can arise, she will probably not appear at all, or lead some sort of last Valios-loyalist rebel group

>>2084499
It'll just be set not to fire if the HYW isn't active. It's not that complicated.

>>2084296
who said Romans didn't civilize these filthy savages?

>>2084238
>England being able to completely steamroll the rest of Europe if they manage to blob France
Same as EU4 basically. All is as it should be.

>>2084338
>it's real
I thought you were joking. I went to prom with a Albanian girl and she looked like she could be from Kazakhstan. Are they just eastern transplants / rape babies or have they always been a bit off.

>>2084553
I don't know about that specific girl, but Albanians have always been the least european Europeans.

>>2084257
Now I wonder how they will model the first Castilian Civil War and the War of the Two Peters. And if we are allowed to play with Peter of Castile or Henry of Trastamara or even the De la Cerda family, which also had a claim to the throne, even if weaker.

>>2084563
>We prefer not to railroad this content, it's okay if it never happens spain isn't OP anyway
t. spanish devs

>>2083426
>game still has army tradition
I really wish combat skill would be tied to units and to countries

>>2084365
They should, but I want to know if eu5 has it

>>2084239
>its the current YEAR!!!!
what a subhuman wh*Teoid kek

>>2084570
>t. catalan devs
FTFY

>>2078711
Tell me male and female pops are different in this and that icon actually includes both, and it is not just inclusion.

>>2084679
>he thinks eu5 won't be left wing bullshit
lmao

>>2084679
Absolutely no sign of anything like that, pops are just pops. Imo they're enough of an abstraction you can just handwave it anyway.
>a building requiring 100 pops to work represents 40 able bodied workers plus their families (women/children/elderly)
or what have you.

>>2084696
He's got a point, we should have homemaker as a role and it be necessary for growth, and it should be a real issue with colonies.

>>2084696
okay, but why does icon have to both men and women in it?

>>2084679
Pops are just pops. You can represent dependents by capping the number of pops available for labor/levies, essentially implementing labor participation with a simple percentage value. You could even have a rudimentary population pyramid by having pop growth give a malus to pop labor participation, to represent a bigger share of pops being children.
If you want to represent jobs women might actually participate in during this era i.e. weaving in various places, shepherds' work in steppe nomad cultures, you just require fewer pops for those buildings to show it's more labor efficient.

>>2084721
pops represent the total population, it's men and women. There's no concept of "1 pop equals a family" like victoria 2

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-flavour-30-4th-of-july-2025-france.1827693/

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will take a look at France! Let’s start without further ado:

The death of King Charles IV without issue in 1328 marked the end of Capet rule over the Kingdom of France, resulting in the coronation of King Philippe VI de Valois, a relative from a former cadet branch of the dynasty. However, it has been contested by King Edward III Plantagenet of England, on the pretext that while the Salic Law of France forbids the passing of the throne to a female successor, it does not forbid the inheritance through a female line. As the son of Dame Isabelle ‘the She-Wolf’ Capet, the last living sibling of King Charles IV, King Edward III might claim the throne of France as his birthright.

The tension over both countries has worsened over the past years, as our hospitality of the exiled young ruler of the Scots, King David II de Bruce, has enraged the English court, whose Balliol puppet seeks to seize that crown. As a response, King Edward III has also recently granted refuge to Sire Robert d’Artois, who escaped calls to face trial in Paris for his attempts to seize the County of Artois. There are rumors that Sire Robert is even encouraging the disgruntled King Edward III to press his claim to the throne of France militarily.

Should relations continue to deteriorate towards a boiling point, King Philippe VI may require the support of his subjects, although more than one ambitious Appanage hailing from the old royal line may seize on the opportunity to demand greater privileges, proving a greater threat to the stability of the crown than any invading claimant. The upcoming years will be consequential for the future of France, having to face the external English menace and the proud French lords at once. Will the country fall to the fake pretenders, or emerge as the main power in Europe?

A cool new feature of EU5: We have a ‘fixed DNA’ system, so certain important historical characters have their faces pre-scripted to look as close as possible to their historical portraits. We have already implemented this for important starting historical rulers, such as Philippe VI of France, and other important characters that can appear via event, e.g. Martin Luther.

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.

France is already the biggest country in Europe in 1337, so I’ve opted to share with you 3 zoom levels today. In the second one, you can see how the forts look like at this moment.

The diplomacy of France is quite interesting at start:

Some of the subjects are regular vassals, while others are a unique subject type, Appanages:

As its the starting situation of its government:

The French Nobility is a bit powerful, isn’t it?

These are the starting unique reforms and privileges of France:

Its flavour-named Parliament, the États Généraux:

A bunch of unique advance, of which I’m going to show one per age, as usual:

As a Tier 1 country, France has a proper number of Dynamic Historical Events:

Here you have some of them:

This event will start an event chain about the fate of Étienne Marcel, Provost of Paris…

And this one another event chain about Bertrand du Guesclin.

France may also suffer a unique disaster in the Age of Reformation, the French Wars of Religion:

More actions and events will pop up after some time.

It will also open this Reformation Edicts, a unique Law for France, as one of the means to resolve its disaster:

And here are some more events for the late game:

Another guy who will have his own event chain.

… And much more, but that’s all for today! Next week we’ll have a Tinto Maps Feedback on Monday, a Tinto Talks on Wednesday, and Tinto Flavour on Friday:

Tinto Maps Feedback for South East Asia.
Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about Tonalism, the new Mesoamerican religious group.
Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Aztecs.

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!

>>2084865
>>>2072164
>Tinto Maps Feedback for South East Asia
Indonesia-bros...

I'm still surprised how much of the flavour text contains broken English

It's really disappointing that they don't even proofread their own stuff

t. EFL

>>2084691
>Being this desperate for every game to be slop, even if there is no sign of this.

Literally the POP icon are WHITE people, the main banner is of WHITE people. The name of the fucking game is EUROPA.

Kaiser Johan will deliver.

Can't wait to conquer all euroach peninsula (yes, is a peninsula of asia) as Mali and post my campaign here to own the chuds

None of the euroaches will be stronger than even Mamluks let alone the likes of Delhi, Yuan, Timurids

Asia WON

Brown and Yellow people WON

>>2084970
>Mamluks, Delhi, Yuan, Timurids
all portugal victims

>>2084983
The glorified pirate hub carved out of stolen moorish land with a population equal to a mid size city from delhi? Lmfao

>>2084991

>>2084991
yeah they kept raping you so hard until the angloids came to help

love how the jeet simps for delhi, afghan invaders that were treating hindoids like the cattle that they are

>>2085014
>l-look we got into a single battle with this empire and managed to kill 100 men once
Don't you have some monkey from the Amazon to rape or something you moor

>>2085014
these portuguese men lived incredible lives

>>2084679
believe it or not but women did actually work and contributed a lot to the medieval economy, it wasn't until the post-war period that there were economies (mainly the American one) that were so rich and productive that you could support the whole family with a single worker.

>>2084864
>we have a ‘fixed DNA’ system, so certain important historical characters have their faces pre-scripted to look as close as possible to their historical portraits
>the cardinal de Richelieu looks like fucking bum

gods these 3D portraits are hideous

>Thank for this TF !

>No mention of Vauban and his fortifications? Unique fort maybe ?

>And Versailles with a default construction time of just 365 days? The main construction of the palace actually took nearly 50 years, mainly during the reign of Louis XIV, from 1661 to 1710. Compressing that monumental royal project into a single year really downplays the scale and ambition of what was one of the most massive undertakings of the early modern period.


>Will there be anything for the Fronde and various outcomes for it


>I still think you should rename Parlament to Diet or Council

>Parlament can be a flavour name for England

Parliament is a clear enough, general name for the feature, Diet is quite specific for some cultures, and we also have to be consitent with the different types:

>Will France have variant flags? I expect like the revolutionary one, as that was represented already in eu4, however I believe France like quite often switched between white and blue and the amount of flour de lis

Yes:

>Thank for this TF !

>No mention of Vauban and his fortifications? Unique fort maybe ?

>And Versailles with a default construction time of just 365 days? The main construction of the palace actually took nearly 50 years, mainly during the reign of Louis XIV, from 1661 to 1710. Compressing that monumental royal project into a single year really downplays the scale and ambition of what was one of the most massive undertakings of the early modern period.


>Will there be anything for the Fronde and various outcomes for it


>I still think you should rename Parlament to Diet or Council

>Parlament can be a flavour name for England

Parliament is a clear enough, general name for the feature, Diet is quite specific for some cultures, and we also have to be consitent with the different types:


>Will France have variant flags? I expect like the revolutionary one, as that was represented already in eu4, however I believe France like quite often switched between white and blue and the amount of flour de lis

Yes:

>>2085066
Those retards don't know that, they think for the entirety of human history there was a nuclear family where the husband worked and the wife took care of the home and humans only made a recent change rather than realizing that was an anomaly.

>Why are some French vassals in a different shade of blue in the diplomatic map?

Subjects of subjects now have a different coloring, as overlord of overlord. Also, overlords and subjects now have different coloring:

>>2085066
No, I don't disagree, my point is why the fuck does the icon have to both male and women?

>>2085066
Medieval women contributed very little to the economy, they may have worked but they didn't have jobs.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/how-will-the-number-of-locations-affect-gameplay-for-certain-regions.1803501/

Why don't they just give the browns and yellows their precious locations? I'm all for making the populous, wealthy and resource-rich areas of the world as detailed as possible. If anything, they offer for even better colonist LARP, especially in India with more locations to colonize, exploit RG)s of and if going all the way to develop, civilize and demographically transform too

>>2085139
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/how-will-the-number-of-locations-affect-gameplay-for-certain-regions.1803501/

Why don't they just give the browns and yellows their precious locations? I'm all for making the populous, wealthy and resource-rich areas of the world as detailed as possible. If anything, they offer for even better colonist LARP, especially in India with more locations to colonize, exploit RGOs of and if going all the way, more locations to develop, civilize and demographically transform too

>>2085118
>Medieval women contributed very little to the economy
Why are paradoxfags so historically illiterate?

>>2085118
Anon, even in Murrica at the turn of the 20th century most people were self-employed. Barely anyone had a job.

>>2085066
I think OP means what is the point of that icon if women are not considered their own pops.

>>2085118
>contributed very little to the economy, they may have worked but they didn't have jobs.
Anon wait until you find about they didn't even have weekly stand-up meetings

>>2085073
True, why the fuck Richelieu looks like a monk? He was a cardinal, the tonsure haircut was not necessary for them.

>>2085157
In 1900 US male laborforce participation rate was something like 80%, today the participation rate in total is 62%

>>2085226
And then they have the face to call Nordics lazy when it's mid-70s there.

>>2085234
what do nordics contribute? more gibs for islamists and daily rape funding?

>>2085141
Fuck off, lmao. China is detailed enough as it is. I don't know about India though

>>2084875
>>Being this desperate for every game to be slop, even if there is no sign of this.
Don't make me tap the sign.

The game looks like a repackaged Imperator in every respect, right down to every pop being a slave/peasant until you build buildings and then they start arbitrarily promoting to a ratio, the only difference is it's "realistic" numbers instead of units (300k "laborers" instead of 30 "freemen") it's basically an overhaul mod for that game. For me? That's not a problem. I like Imperator. But given Imperator's playercount I don't think many others do. That is to say, it will flop like slop while I play the sweet nectar that is Liqtoria 2 until I die of heart disease at 36.

>>2085282
>sweet nectar that is Liqtoria 2
holy nostalgia bait

The main complaints I've read so far in normie spaces are about future dlcs and the ui. Steam users are unironic thirdie poorfags.

>>2085401
>if you want a completed game on release instead of waiting years for a full product like with ck3 and v3 you're a thirdie
guess im a third world european then

>>2085282
It really does look like an overhauled Imperator: Rome, even the way you go from levies to a orofessional army. Except in this one you are somehow even more limited in how you interact with your country.

>>2085401
I heard "UI bad" repeated a lot but nobody explains what's bad. I think it's redditor groupthink at this point honestly. EU4's UI also looks like a complete trainwreck and yet it mostly works great.

>>2085263
Shut the actual fuck up, Rajesh
>>2085401
The UI has improved drastically over time. I'd much rather have finer ornate details integrated with the sleek and clean modern layout and font than a complete reversal to ooga booga High Germanic document format and typesetting for menus and notifications like in previous games. That was a fucking eyesore

Reminder that if they don't announce the release date before the end of this month the gam isn't coming until next year and all the "it has to release soon" fags will be btfo'd.

>>2085411
>third world european then
Moldavian. Albanian. Scottish.

>>2085673
Greek?

>>2085673
>Scottish
The cultural, scientific, and administrative beating heart of the empire.

>>2085711
Always wanted to go to Greece. How much money would it cost an American for a decent trip?

>>2085723
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg

>>2085767
even before hovering over the embed button I knew what the video would've been about

good taste my man

>>2085767

>>2085833
What is this from?
Google can't find anything.

>>2085836
'I've never met a nice South African' by the show Spitting Image.

>>2085141
>I'm all for making the populous, wealthy and resource-rich areas of the world as detailed as possible. If anything, they offer for even better colonist LARP, especially in India with more locations to colonize, exploit RGOs of and if going all the way, more locations to develop, civilize and demographically transform too
100%
I'm really looking forward to taking treaty ports now the provinces are actually treaty port sized.

I hope you can rename provinces though. I don't want "Jiǔlóng", I want Hong Kong.

>>2085917
they should have made macao a location

>>2085411
Almost none of the EU4 DLCs are mandatory to play the game anymore, those who where already got integrated in the main game. You're not making your game more complete by buying DLCs, you're buying additional flavor content that was not originally planned.

>>2085926
Come the fuck on. The entire game is built around mechanics that only exist in DLC.

>those stats
Yaaas queen! Finally some women representation in games

>>2078708 (OP)
Is it wrong that I'm kind of excited bros? Johan might have done it. I may buy a new PC just for this if it's as good as it looks a few months after release

>>2085917
>Doesn't want to make the Kowloon Walled City great again
For shame, anon. You can rename everything

>>2086009
Wasnt she a pawn in the hands of the king

>>2086026
>You can rename everything
source?

>>2085917
>I hope you can rename provinces though. I don't want "Jiǔlóng", I want Hong Kong.
>>2086026
>You can rename everything
We know there are game rules relating to how provinces are named, with options for it using the ruler culture name, and the most dominant culture present's name.

>>2086037

>>2086045
Based. Time to poorly google-translate an entire excel file full of Wade-Giles transliterations.

>>2084865
Tonalism? Do we get to build the Numidium?

>>2086009
Can't wait to kill Engl*sh with this girl.

>>2085673
All of the balkans are shit

>>2086026
Kowloon should have never been demolished.

>>2085502
>but nobody explains what's bad
EU5's UI is going the minimalist route when it should have gone full skeuomorphism.

>>2085838
>I've never met a nice South African
Truer words have never been spoken

>>2085088
>Bearn
What's the deal with them?

>>2084991
>glorified pirate hub
Anon said Portugal, not England.

>>2084865
North America never ever...

>>2085917
Now that I think about it, why is every province in Mandarin? Where's the Cantonese?

>>2085931
The game is completely playable without any DLCs in its current state, thoughbeit

>>2085931
Mechanics that were somewhat recently integrated into the main game for free.

>>2086267
It's really just naïve 1980s Brits complaining about racism, apartheid, and hunting. I think it's catchy though and the spitting image puppets are pretty good.

>>2086316
Mandarin is the lingua franca among Chinese since around 14th century (the Yuan codified it along with other languages in their empire). Mandarin literally mean "language of the officials". Cantonese is only spoken in some part of the southern coast and aren't as widely politically relevant.

>>2086594
They could maybe just set Mandarin as the court language and give us Cantonese separately

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-25-south-east-asia-feedback.1832821/

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps Feedback post! Today, we will be reviewing the region of South East Asia. Let's start with the list of changes, as usual, although with a prior warning: We worked in parallel in the feedback review of South East Asia and Indonesia, as it was more convenient and efficiente, so there's a common log for both regions, also to make it easier to test it to our QAs. However, we'll present the feedback in two separate posts to make it easier to compare with the original posts. So, what we'll be doing is posting the common log twice, once for each feedback post. Let's now take it a look at it:

As you can see, we focused most on the work of correcting errors, and specifically, on the cultural and religious setup, which has undergone great changes. We also gave more granularity in terms of countries to the northern fringes of the region.

Countries:

Quite a bunch of additions, especially in Northern Birmania, and in the former Kingdom of Dali.

ADDITIONS

Added the following:

TAGs
Kiliman
Lanao
Ibalon
Pulilu
Taytay
Kumalarang
Vientiane
Cobra
Hkamti
Mong Kong
Hsawng Hsup

Dynasties:

Country Ranks & Government Types:

We will be starting soon a world-wide pass on the existing Tribal nations, so feedback regarding them is welcome.

SoPs:

We removed some of the SoPs, and incorporated them as cultural and religious minorities, although we're also open to feedback regarding that.

Locations:

Not many changes, mostly renaming, as we thought the distribution and density were good enough, and balanced in comparison with India and China. There were very detailed proposals, specifically for Northern Birmania, but we decided against it, so as not to break the location density balance of the region.

CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:

Locations (only corrections):
sinugbohan to irong_irong
dumangas to araut
virac to vidak
himoragat to naga_bikol
lagawe to kiyyangan
lianga to langan
mainit to cabadbaran
marakato to makarato
baybay to pangasugan
vigan to bigan
cabagbagototan to kandong
tabuk to tobog
buayan to makar
datu_piang to buayan
laillo to lal_lo
davao to tagloc
linao to bislig
davao_gulf to tagloc_gulf

Provinces:

Some renaming here.

Areas:

Climate:

Topography:

Vegetation:

A bunch of reworked stuff here.

Development:

Some more different development, mostly as a result of the terrain changes.

Harbors:

Cultures:

This is a noticeable change from the original Tinto Maps, as we have now added the cultural minorities and portrayed the cultural diversity of the region in its full glory.

Religions:

And more minorities, in this case, the religious ones!

Languages:

Some more rework on the languages.

Raw Materials:

Markets:

We added two more market centers, in Pinya and Angkor.

And that's all for today! Next Monday, there will be another Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of Indonesia. Cheers!

>>2087612
Lan Na lords.... It looks like we're Lan Na losers this time

>>2087580
What glorious bordergore

>>2087580
goreposts arent allowed here

>>2087580
what in the fuck did they do to Yunnan

>>2087727
They made it more authentic, though I think they're all Yuan vassals

>>2087727
They just went in and released all the vassals as playable nations for extra lag when they were losing

>>2087727
Tributarymaxxing. That part of South China and SEA wasn't organized at all, it was bunch of autonomous jungle tribes.

>>2087615
Language Families:

Dialects:

>>2087580
>>2087614
>>2087672
>>2087727
>>2087761
Seriously, what the fuck was the point of this? Who the fuck asked for this? They just added 2 seconds of lag per month by adding two dozen tags to Yunnan and for what? The 5 people from those shitholes who might play a game there after they've done playing the relevant countries?

I have a 7800x3d so lag isn't really a concern for me, but this shit was wholly unnecessary. This amount of dev time should not have been put in to doing this. Redditors can soiface over this all they want, on release they'll complain about the dogshit performance just like everyone else.

>>2087809
I suppose all the shit tags are disappearing mighty fast in the first 100 years.

>>2087615
I wonder if it would be a fun campain to play as a thai state and conque modern thailand, subduing all those cultures on the way. Can be a pretty fun tall game I think. Any SEA history buff here, that knows what state would be the historically accurate one?

>>2087781
>Yue
Based, Cantonese is in. I guess they just need the location names now

>>2087842
They'll only be Canto names when owned by a Canto state. i.e, never.

>>2087835
Ayodhya, though you start as a vassal of Lavo. The Ayutthaya Kingdom is supposed to be formed 14 years after the start date and is the precursor of the kingdom that became the modern Thailand

>>2080854
>>2080836
IHDI is better.

>>2087809
>Who the fuck asked for this?
Me. I asked for this.

>>2088164
See the last sentence of that post.

>>2087809
You are making massive assumptions about the performance aspect based on nothing. The same argument could be made for HRE microstates, english petty vassals and so many more regional details across the map. The devs obviously know that the game can handle the performance hit.

>>2087809
>I have a 7800x3d so lag isn't really a concern for me
Then what is your issue? Poorfags shouldn't dictate game development.

>>2088233
>You are making massive assumptions about the performance aspect based on nothing.
Based on how literally every other game using this engine works. More tags, more lags.
>The same argument could be made for HRE microstates, english petty vassals and so many more regional details across the map.
The difference is the Hansa, the Pale, and Avignon were historically relevant. Mong Hsa, Mong Lem, and Mong Wu weren't.
>The devs obviously know that the game can handle the performance hit.
Victoria 3's shit performance even being in the top 10 of the issues with the game say otherwise.

Please, keep running free damage control for the multi-million dollar company. You might even get your own tag in Yunnan. Gullible Mong.

>>2088244
You know we literally have footage of the game running, right? Why are you speculating, just pick a video. The game lagged horribly in the 3D mode because of graphics, in the flatmap it ran quite well.
i don't get why the internet is full of people like this, asoooomers who never check anything or try to find information, and just asooooom what ought to be true based on vague asoooomptions. It's a fucking google search away.

>>2088265
You either didn't watch the videos or deluded yourself into disbelieving them. Every single video said the biggest issue was performance. Seen as it's become clear you're not arguing in good faith there's no point continuing to discuss this with you.
I look forward to your screeching and backpedaling on release day.

>>2088244
It's not free, he is getting paid to post

game's gonna be a sloppy flop innit

>>2088267
You can literally watch the video and time the passage of days on speed 5. It's slower than EU4 but not that slow. There's nothing to argue about, you can just go watch it. Meds.

>>2088315
you're indian and you're getting killed

>>2085118
Illiterate urbanite.

>>2086316
They will probably add it at some point. Right now localization names are based on some languages but not all. Also they get named based on the culture of the owner which I think its mandarin in this case.

god you know i really wish we knew more about some backwards fuckin loser savages
you know i don't really care about europe, asia, the middle east, i care about bumfuck ooga boogas hitting each other with clubs and ripping peoples hearts out

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-71-9th-of-july-2025.1835118/

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will talk about the Tonal religions! This is a religious group that covers the Mesoamerican religions:

Nahua Ritualism

Let's start with Nahua Ritualism, which is the religion in the group that has more detailed features:

This is the panel of the religion:

Let’s start with the core mechanic of the Nahua Ritualism, an old EU4 friend, Doom:

As you can see, Doom accumulates over time, and the bigger the country is, the more Doom it accumulates. It can be mitigated either by performing some mechanics, such as killing enemies and looting locations, or by some of the Religious Actions. But there’s only one way of completely escaping from it, which is Reforming the religion. This can be achieved by passing by enough Religious Focuses, the former EU4 ‘Reforms’:

These Focuses are a necessary pain, as they give a debuff to your country while they’re active, but you need to accumulate some of them to be able to reform the religion. Here you have some of them.

These are the available Religious Actions:

The last action, Reform Society, allows to Reform the religion when enough Religious Aspects have been enforced, but it has a big con: It triggers a disaster, 'Reform Society', which needs to be resolved to become a 'Reformed Nahuatl Society':

Maya Ritualism

Let’s talk now about another of the Tonal religions - Maya Ritualism:

Different from Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism doesn’t have any Doom, but centers instead around the concept of the K’atun.

The mechanic revolves around preparing for the K’atun celebrations every 20 years in the game. The player needs to invest resources using the different actions to raise the country’s preparations for the K’atun, measured with the Religious Influence currency.

The country can choose between three degrees of intensity in their preparations, and that will impact the effects they get while preparing for it.

The K’atun will happen on the actual dates according to the historical Maya calendar, so the first one to encounter once the game starts will be in September 1342, with the following ones occurring every 19.7 years (so they will not always be on the same month). Once the K’atun finishes, the country will get an event with different outcomes depending on how much preparation they have been able to accomplish, as well as resetting the value of preparation back to 0.

Besides the normal preparations, other additional actions can contribute to the gain of Religious Influence:

The religion also has other ways to spend the Religious Influence before the end of the K’atun comes, although at the risk of not being fully prepared when it does.

The modifier granted by the celebration will be different depending on the date on which the ceremony is hosted, varying according to the historical Uinal.

Same as Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism also has gods, some of them are actually the same ones with different names (so we have dynamic naming for gods). For example, Quetzalcōātl and Kukulkan are the same god with dynamic naming.

Tonal
This mechanics for gods is common to all Tonal religions, as well as many of the Folk Religions. We can now show the religion we have decided to call Tonal, namesake of the Tonal group, gathering under its umbrella beliefs related to those of the Nahua and Maya, but still distinct.

The gods of a country of these religions are always present for the countries, but the countries can choose a Religious Aspect to worship a specific god as their patron, doubling the effects of such a god.

And that’s all for today! We will come back on Friday, as we will talk in Tinto Flavour about the Aztecs!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!

>>2089215
Waiting for mesoanons feedback on this.

>>2089251
I predict great disappointment, as Doom is a meme and doesn't really have much to do with actual nahuatl religion
I'm kind neutral on it anyway though, I don't really mind that they just ported over EU4 stuff for launch. A DLC could make it better.
rip Mesoamerica Universalis never 5get

>>2089296
Doom is quite fitting in a sense since your entire dynasty gets sacrificed. This manner of ruler responsibility towards the gods was also practiced in bronze age Europe and Middle East.

>>2089251
Who?

>>2089303
Right but that never actually happened. if this was a fantasy mod and the religion was for aztec-flavored lizard men or something, sure. But it was always captives, slaves, stuff like that, people who could almost be seen like property, because they were offered to repay a sacred debt. If the ruler was seen as needing to appease the gods, they'd have to offer more slaves and riches, not offer themselves and their family. Especially not in a way that makes it seem like the mob overthrew them. And who even takes their place, again? It makes no sense.

>>2089215
>Coming to semi-historical times, we find a variety of legends connected with the early story of the city of Mexico. These for the most part are of a weird and gloomy character, and throw much light on the dark fanaticism of a people which could immolate its children on the altars of implacable gods. It is told how after the Aztecs had built the city of Mexico they raised an altar to their war-god Huitzilopochtli. In general the lives rendered to this most sanguinary of deities were those of prisoners of war, but in times of public calamity he demanded the sacrifice of the noblest in the land.
>On one occasion his oracle required that a royal princess should be offered on the high altar. The Aztec king, either possessing no daughters of his own or hesitating to sacrifice them, sent an embassy to the monarch of Colhuacan to ask for one of his daughters to become the symbolical mother of Huitzilopochtli. The King of Colhuacan, suspecting nothing amiss, and highly flattered at the distinction, delivered up the girl, who was escorted to Mexico, where she was sacrificed with much pomp, her skin being flayed off to clothe the priest who represented the deity in the festival. The unhappy father was invited to this hideous orgy, ostensibly to witness his daughter's deification. In the gloomy chambers of the war-god's temple he was at first unable to mark the trend of the horrid ritual. But, given a torch of copal-gum, he saw the officiating priest clothed in his daughter's skin, receiving the homage of the worshippers. Recognising her features, and demented with grief and horror, he fled from the temple, a broken man, to spend the remainder of his days in mourning for his murdered child.
Why were they like this?

>>2089221
>Very interesting! What about Chichimeca? Which tags does it apply to and does it have any unique mechanics?

1. Here is the spread.
2. It doesn't have unique mechanics, I'm sorry to say.

>>2088998
for hundreds of thousands of years the naked ape of murder and rape was true to its nature, and then civilization ruined it all

>>2089341
Jesus Christ, why do the usual suspects always defend this shit?

>>2089341
Probably not very likely that this actually happpened since its a legend (iirc told by the former subject states of the aztecs who joined the spanish). But it shows how much they hated the aztecs and why so many of the subject states helped overthrow their yoke by replacing it with the spanish rule.

>>2089341
>i offered my daughter to the aztecs for sacrifice and now they're sacrificing her... this can't be happening bros!
lmao

>>2089455
Becauss it's the usual masturbation machines propaganda. We're hearing this shit third hand from the states that rivalled the Aztecs and then the Spanish who hated all of them. It's the least unbiased a source could be.

>>2089491
I believe it 100% due to how savage the cartels are today. It's in their history and blood to be like that.

>>2089519
I believe that Germans would invent a masturbation machine that kills you tho, just like I believe that Jews would poison wells and sacrifice children. I also believe that Mexicans would skin women alive because some drug addict told them to.

All of these things are believable when you know the race.

>>2089519
The sacrifices existed, though. There has been several underground sacrificial burials found even to this day.

>>2089455
because only goys were the victims. The jew doesn't care about the suffering of people not from his tribe

>>2089513
You are reading the story wrong, that other king didn't even know shit about the whole ritual thing.

>>2089341
>Why were they like this?
I don't know if true, but I read once the Mesoamerican region suffered a demographic collapse long ago that made all the civilizations in that region go kaput and disappeared for a while. Basically a "big reset" not much different from the Bronze Age collapse that happened in Europe.
Then, after the civilizations recovered, they started to implement a ritualistic human sacrifice as a way of "population control", thing that keep doing until the Spaniards came.

>>2089341
It was lies written by the spanish conquistadors to justify enslavement because under the crown's law, enslavement of natives was only allowed if they practiced cannibalism, were already slaves and taken in a war, or were purchased from other natives.

>>2089552
There was a Mayan civilization that seemingly died out as a result of an aquifer being depleted

>>2089587
How the hell did that happen? Yucatán literally is full of water, how the fuck do you screw up that bad?

>>2089675
Several episodes of temporary global climate change lasting decades + excessive deforestation changing local water cycles (yes, even cenotes can dry up locally) and stressing the social fabric of numerous localities (remember that it doesn't matter if you still have plenty of water somewhere, you have to get it to everyone through an extensive canal network), which caused wars and civil strife, which destroyed complex water infrastructure, which stressed the social fabric even more, culminating into a death spiral in which most dynasties were couped (and/or sacrificed , to get the gods to change rain patters back), main urban centers were abandoned (with obvious consequences to organizational and technical capacity to build back water networks) and the mayan civilization fell back into low complexity population distributions.

Basically the bronze age collapse if the fertile crescent had been the main victim of weather changes and fell into absolute chaos.

>>2089675
Also, funnily enough some of the most complex non utilitarian water infrastructure was build during this absolute shitfest collapse, historians hypothesize due to a combination of trying to appease the divine and water being seen as pseudo-luxurious (think about someone building the Trevi fountain in your capital city while the agricultural lowlands are deep into a years long drought and famine)

>no navigable rivers
shit game 0/10 deport Johan to the mines of Kiruna

The thread had a mini-war about human sacrifice there. Was bizarre.

>>2089769
6,000,000 Mesoamericans were genocided by the Aztecs.

>>2089769
Kind of expected, imho. Aztecs and human sacrifices already became part of the collective conscious, so you can't really mention one thing without the other.

>>2089769
What's happening over there?

>>2089871
Some guy said
>No religion is more primitive or advance then others. Religious traditions can be different but neither is better or worse.
then someone else said
>Christianity has had lots of human-sacrifice. We just identify them as Witch Burnings.
And apparently neither of these guys were baiting or shitposting somehow, so it understandably caused an argument

why are christcucks so easy to troll with the dumbest shit ever

>troll
unfortunately these reddit atheists and brownoids actually mean it

>>2090282
>he thinks trolling can't be done sincerely
very low level

>>2089811
That didn't happen, and if it happened, they deserved it.

you have to be really fucking retarded to be religious in 2025

*tips*

>>2090842
>>2090842

New Tinto Flavour Aztecs
New Thread

>>2090760
the fuck does 2025 have to do with it