Thread 2134296

We had Starcraft 2. It dominated the genre, gave us 15 years of relatively good stuff and encouraged Blizzard to take another look at BW and Warcraft (that went poorly). It was so good no other RTS could compete, which arguably hurt development of new titles until SC2's popularity started to down die down.

And now we are fucking doomed. Every single new game or project looks like shit or low effort game for whales willing to spend their money on something they won't play for more than 30 hours.

Age of Empires: zzz
Tempest Rising: okay but no ambition to go bigger
Stormgate: lol
Battle Aces: okay start but it probably wouldn't go anywhere
Zerospace: abandonware?

The only hope I can think of is some Saudi prince marries a daughter of Chinese billionaire and their parents buy them a video game company to get some positive PR or just a way to watch dollars burn.

Please give me some hopium or just discuss if it's possible to make things even worse in the RTS scene than they're now

>>2134296 (OP)
dow DE is decently successful (9k players atm) and dow4 in the making doesn't look half bad
whether we like it or not the strategy games are dominated by 4x/grand strategy games these days, and it will remain so as long as rts devs are afraid of innovation

>>2134327
4x is a dead genre and gsg is monopolized by a single greedy publisher that just keeps making the same game over and over with different skins and thousands of dollars of dlcbloat.

>>2134296 (OP)
>HURR DURR DOOM AND GLOOM WOE IS ME!
/vst/ is still not your personal blog. Go away!

>>2134296 (OP)
>Retarded Starcraft monkey posts retarded Starcraft monkey shit AND a wojak
Yeah, that's about right. You're a fucking faggot who cares about shit that doesn't matter.

>>2134371
stay shit loser lmao

>>2134296 (OP)
Thirty hours is perfectly fine for a video game. Maybe devs shouldn't spend ten years trying to make a new Starcraft killer, and instead focus on making honest, humble and fresh RTSes every so often, just like the old days.

>Battle Aces
>he doesn't know

>>2134296 (OP)
There's a new Dawn of War and Game of Thrones. D.O.R.F looks good I will buy it just to support indie games. If I get 5 million or more from /biz/ and r/wallstreetbets I will make a squad based rpg like Fallout Tactics and CoH/DoW. I post Fallout ideas behind, it will merge into a Fallout universe but it will be under a different franchise. There will be LOTR, Fallout, Medieval mods on day 1. I will pay for the basic 3d art and voice acting for the mods to go around copyright. No cap. It depends on how much the owner will charge me if it will be a classic rts or spiritual successor. Today will be my last day posting on /vst/ coming from /pol/. We got so pissed at AAA making woke slop we made better threads from alternate Fallout games I will do this because I am a bored incel. But I have Jesus too. The game will be geared to Good Old Games too so it will be classic easy to pirate if you are poor or hate paying for games.

200 hours to 500 hours is a great game. If you want more you are autistic or want to be lucky.

>We had Starcraft 2. It dominated the genre,
>Please give me some hopium

Stop being a Blizzard fanboy. If you were 6 months in WoW or SC 2 you need to move on it will never get better. I played WoW in open beta and all we did is wait around for it to get better it never will so stop waiting. Quit Blizzard you will only be let down. Find another game. Legit I fall asleep playing WoW, SC 2, or Ghost of Tsushima.

I'm starting to "talk my own book" so today is the last time I post in /vst/. I don't want to be an insufferable millenial.

I'll see you boys on the flipside.

>>2134448
>today is the last time I post in /vst/.
See back you tomorrow!

>>2134491
It really do be like that though

People don't want to play Starcraft anymore. Evident by the failure of Stormgate and insistence of nevergaters.

>>2134352
>4x is a dead genre
>ignore thousands of people playing games like age of wonders or tens of thousands playing bigger titles like civilization
we never had the player count of fps games and never will, but the genre is far from dead
it's just suffering from all things that affect the whole gaming industry

Don’t cry because RTS is over. Smile because RTS happened.

>>2134352
Victoria is as close to Heart of Irons as Command and Conquer is close to Rise of Nations

>>2134296 (OP)
Am I the only person who thinks StarCraft is fucking gay? Granted, I never played the first one. Gives me slight Tiberian Sun vibes but maybe that’s just the aesthetic.

>>2134448
>dorf
Never coming out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ghIjmBakk looks sick tho

>>2134704
>Am I the only person who thinks StarCraft is fucking gay?
yes, you are indeed special!

>>2134704
>Am I the only person who thinks StarCraft is fucking gay?
>I never played the first one.

>>2134296 (OP)
RTS never died. RTS is at its peak. Nothing will ever top this. You just didn't look hard enough.

>>2134296 (OP)
>Zerospace
Sort of alive, considering they've had another demo/playtest this July, according to their Steam page (and survey in my email).

Anon, you don't want a new RTS.
You want to be young, to have reflexes, to the biggest fish in a small pond. You wish for a time when you could beat your normie friends in LAN parties instead of having to use the intent and be forced to meet people who are better than you.

>>2134727
>>2134756

Nothing about it ever looked appealing. C&C was my intro to the genre and it was awhile before I played Warcraft 2 & 3. When I did I felt underwhelmed.

>>2134845
I don't understand how people can go from dunking on the fag art style of Stormgate and then look at Zerospace and say
>WOW! Promising, very promising!
It's an identical product. A floaty 3d bulbous gay RTS for redditors.

>>2135765
zerospace has titty monsters and proper insectoids instead of space fucking demons

Just give me C&C Generals 2 even if it's in all but name only.

>>2139384
It's a longshot, but I'm cautiously interested in Global Conflagration.

>>2134296 (OP)
sc2 killed the entire genre, brood war was #1 sexy e-sport then sc2 flopped and everyone went to fuck off to other games like league and fork knife.
same reason stormgate is dead on arrival, its the exact same dev team doing the exact same thing but because they arent getting carried by the blizz brand no one wants to play their shit.
the best thing that could happen would be blizz literally just selling or renting or whatever the starcraft IP to the Koreans who are the only people left on planet Earth who even still play starcraft and let those autists cook up starcraft 3 which might actually be a decent game and bring poeple back to rts otherwise youre just in the age of empires 5 waiting room because aoe4 was the only rts ive seen release in like the last 10 years that had any success whatsoever

>>2139859
The very first Starcraft was a regression on RTS. Second one was another regression. We don't need another regression by having another Starcraft.

>>2134296 (OP)
>Starcraft.
>Starcraft!
>Starcraft?
Jesus shut the fuck up. Starcraft was never even good.

>>2139860
ftfy* seethoid

>>2139924
You're subhuman in a way so completely backwards that you make the very concept of mental retardation a blessing in comparison

>>2139924
>starshitter doesn't understand the implications of simulated projectiles

>>2134296 (OP)
Stormgate and Battle Aces were doomed from the start.
Only people who had careers in casting and playing RTS games, were fooled, and those gullible enough to listen to them.

Sc2 is mid, it had a lot of hype, but even in the heyday it was mid.
AoE2 and Broodwar is still going strong, growing even.
Reforged sucked and further destroyed the UMS scene, but you can still play standard melee and the campaigns mostly fine, it's just a shame that newcomers might play with the reforged settings.

>but I don't care about esports
then you also have no complaints like OP, we have an amazing backlog of rts ranging from fun jank to hidden gems that we can have fun with in singleplayer, and we still get new shit like The Scouring which isn't made by people who are esportsbrained.

If you want rts that you can play competitively and enjoy as esports, you have Broodwar and AoE2, and to lesser degrees sc2 and wc3, they're still there.
If you want campaigns, you have a great backlog.
If you want chill compstomps with friends, then AoE2 is still king.

If you want hypeslop, like what you got when sc2 was artificially boosted with big marketing like when you were young, then fuck you and grow the fuck up.

>>2134296 (OP)
starcraft is oversimplified arcadish garbage with minimalized strategical features which loses hard to dow even since dow has cover and morale
play actual strategies before crying that blizzard is not making another braindead arcades for low-iq retards like yourself, you might actually discover games with depth and complexity
I reccomend warhammer total war, its dumbed down enough for retards like yourself to be able to handle on easy difficulty

>>2140168
show me on the doll where sc2 touched you, slowpoke

>>2140290
>give factual criticism
>noooo you must love startcraft 2 everyone does
whatever, continue harming yourself with dunning-kruger, I am out

>>2134704
Everything since heart of the swarm is gay

>>2140290
>>2139860

>>2134704
No. I genuinely hate Starcraft and always have.

>>2134296 (OP)
>, gave us 15 years of relatively good stuff
Such as..? Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void? Warcraft 3 Reforged?

>>2139924
>>2140492

>>2139927
>retard can't comprehend artillery firing arc
>shits and pisses himself while shouting at clouds instead

>>2139859
If Koreans take anything they will ruin it and just make it korea-only.
As they did with Shattered Galaxy. The only MMORTS ever that noone ever tried to copy. (Ok the faggots from Petroglyph tried to do somethign with war of nations but scrapped it completely)

>>2141163
>>2140016

I feel that alot of the reasons that RTS is often a genre that can struggle to gain larger audiences is that skill gaps result in wildly different results
>other game
>two opponents have a 5% efficiency/skill difference
>close match
>'popular' RTS
>opponents have 5% difference
>game is basically over 45 seconds in, comeback requires act of God
Could be wrong but I feel that just makes it an unappealing prospect to get into

>>2134296 (OP)
RTS was already dead by the time gookclick 2 was released. Dawn of War: Dark Crusade was the last good RTS.

>>2141397
You're talking about MOBA, not actual RTS.

>>2141397
The real problem is that the majority of RTS players don't do PvP. I forget the exact ratio but per Blizzard the VAST majority of their players will never touch PvP, most multiplayer is comp stomps, and most players don't even do that. Most players will just play the campaign and maybe dick around with skirmish mode a bit.

PvP is a prestige thing, it's not your bread and butter for actual customers, it's the cherry on top for when you already have a successful RTS based around a solid campaign because that's what most players are buying based on, and for a given number of players who buy the game you'll only have a small fraction doing PvP, so to get a decent sized PvP player base you need to sell a huge number of copies overall.

Most devs think of RTS as "the PvP genre" and treat that as the centrepiece and neglect or even cut the campaign altogether and as a result they basically throw away the vast majority of potential customers and then wonder why their game isn't succesful.

Actually if you want to cut anything when making an RTS, to save money, cut PvP, if you need even more budget savings just cut multiplayer altogether, and if you need even more savings after that, cut skirmish mode and just release an RTS campaign because that's what most people play RTS games for anyways. If it sells well and you really want multiplayer, put it in the sequel once you've made some good cash already (or if your engine was designed with it in mind, patch it in later).

>>2134296 (OP)
I will save RTS

>>2141416
People don't do pvp in blizzard's rts games because their gameplay are shit, and playing against real players exhibits that.

>>2141428
Do you think it might be a somewhat niche-taste opinion to say that the Starcraft and Warcraft games are all shit?

>>2134296 (OP)
>hurr durr doom without shitcraft2 there's nothing
AOE2
Age of Mythology Retold
SC remastered

>>2141429
There's a reason why most of their playerbase don't touch multiplayer.

>>2141435
Those games are famous for having the most popular and well-developed multiplayer custom maps of any RTS, as well as the most popular e-sports scene. I just don't see much evidence to justify this claim

>>2141440
The evidence is in >>2141416

>>2141444
That post simply states PVP is niche compared to easily accessible campaign gameplay, which is especially true for a punishing game like Starcraft. I don't think you have any evidence other than your own feelings

>>2141448
If gameplay wasn't shit then people wouldn't avoid pvp. Avoiding pvp is an anomaly for games that have it as an option. It means they aren't exploring the gameplay it has to offer. They only stick for the general experience, but not the gameplay. Basically VRchat.

>>2141452
>If gameplay wasn't shit then people wouldn't avoid pvp
The gameplay is demanding, therefore fewer people play it. Hardcore autists are a very small percent, most people just want to have relaxing fun and that's why they play campaigns.

>>2141459
Wrong. People like demanding games when the gameplay is actually good and interesting.

>>2134296 (OP)
Grandstrat surpassed RTS 15 years ago.

The tactical element of RTS was distilled -perfected- into MOBAs. The strategy element of RTS was diluted in many different gimmick games, but in the end it couldn't compete with turn based strategy.

In the end, it was transitional genre.

>>2134448
>D.O.R.F looks good I will buy it just to support indie games.
Haaate openRA engine. Can't enjoy it knowing RA2's engine is so much better.

>>2141416
Also pretty much this. Warcraf III was a hit for the semi RPG campaign. Age of Wonders was also great because of it. Same with SC.

>>2141463
Name any 1v1 PVP videogame as demanding as starcraft PVP, yet has a much wider playerbase because of its good and interesting gameplay

>>2141468
Total Annihilation and all their descendants.

>>2141473
That's cute

>>2141473
overrated desu

>>2141473
point at this retard and laugh

>>2141390
>>2141163

>>2141539
>>2140016

>>2141557
>>2141163

>>2141744
>>2140016

>>2134514
The issue with Stormgate is that it's just worse Starcraft. Literally.
If your entire idea for a game is "let's just slightly reskin X" then you don't deserve any support.
Same reason why shan't be playan TR, Zero-K, BAR and the other C&C rip-off.
Creativity can't be so fucking dead, right?

>>2140168
>I recommend warhammer total war
you can't be serious

>>2141416
Great tutorial on how to waste time nad money.

>>2141414
MOBAs are actually exactly what I was thinking of in regards to games where small gaps in skill still result in close games, especially when you have big-impact abilities like an Enigma black hole or a 5-man echo slam. Meanwhile in something like Starcraft a couple second difference in a pro match is gg

>>2142127
But Starcraft is a MOBA.

>>2142198
No, you dork.

>>2141823
Zero-K is a pretty large deviation from TA and BAR isn't a lesser reskin of TA, it's literally a TA mod that was then reskinned.

>>2134296 (OP)
Pester EA about a Red Alert 2 remaster enough and RTS will be saved.

>>2141473
>SupCom was more popular in competitive than single or casual LAN

>>2141537
LOL!

>RTS Doom
You mean this?

>>2143897
what is this? looks based

>>2142317
Yeah, everyone knows what we need is even more zombies.
Get digging, everyone! We're gonna make The Addams look like well adjusted, normal folks.
We might even somehow resurrect Saga's population and economy while we're at it!

No, anon. Digging up graves does fuck all for real popularity. Even worse, you're left with a half-rotten corpse which has a nasty tendency to bite other projects and spread the disease.
Like how digging up and violating AoE2's corpse got us AoE4, a brutally middling pseudo-AoE2.
Quake 3 being taken out of its slumber shat out Quake Legends or whatever the fuck that abortion was called.
Tribes "3" from Tribes Asend's remains dug up in a trashyard.
Et cetera.

>>2140352
>starcraft is oversimplified arcadish garbage with minimalized strategical features
>factual criticism
pick one retard

>Faggot OP doesn't even mention GreyGoo

https://youtu.be/NSUmApvmF8g

This is what you get for listening to /v/drones and letting telemetry services to isolate you, you need to cultivate your own gaming circle of friends and foes and moderate it with a strong furry cat pawn, the age of wild gaming is gone.

GreyGoo is a super interesting RTS but just look at the guides online, nobody is trying to learn the game, most gamers just want to watch others play and copy them, I admire how GreyGoo is basically anti early harrasment designed and players still try to harras others players, and even worse, modified the maps to accelerate resource gathering at the beginning, when GreyGoo seems to be designed to let the players strategize for a good amount of time how to defeat their foes. Is much more slower than starcraft, that makes units composition+position and strategy so much more important.

Watched every GreyGoo video in youtube and still, nobody seems to understand how to use aircraft strikes properly. Unlimited ammo in aircraft is always a fascinating game mechanic, in Starcraft all spaceships have unlimited ammo but in exchange, their ground attack is laughable, but in GreyGoo a very good managed bomber aircraft group can make a big difference, crippling resource collection, pause very important unit production or even win or lose a game in a very short period of time in a very fast surprising attack.

GreyGoo's goliath is more powerful and more versatility than most RTS units of all videogames and nobody cares. I bet a very skillfull focused Predator [ https://grey-goo.fandom.com/wiki/Predator ] player could decimate most Terran players.

>>2144626
Continued
I love the capacity of saturation waves of attacks units tactics from Greygoo's goo, that can consume the entire map resources, wait some minutes and continue sending endless waves of attackers to your base because the only resource is renovable, not even StarCraft can make my skin tremble with so much fear of hundreds of enemy units capable of slimming thorough mountains and bad positioned wall defenses from all sides to invade your base. And on top of that, able to destroy clusters of aircraft groups in an instant. Or in a instant change to super durable tank like units that destroy everything in its path when a pathway is easily transversable in a danmaku like attack pattern.

And their crystal based lifeforms counterparts, that if allowed, can fill the skies with flying bombs that can destroy most unit compositions. Flying units with focused beams that can destroy easily any high HP unit or building, not even epic units are safe, and on top, heal themselves pretty fast to negate weak anti air defenses.

GreyGoo unit production is literally sex. I do not know any other RTS where base management feels so sexually rewarding. And the goo, literally has no buildings, can do anything necessary on the 'go o" and creep through the entiry map while leaving no trace, what a demoralizing nightmare. Zerg are good ambushers, the goo relies more in mobility and dangerous burrowed bombs, many keks were laughed and entire armies disappeared in the blink of an eye.

GreyGoo and Starcraft are very good games.

GreyGoo tastes like a supreme ferment of Xenosaga's gnosis, StarWars's Galactic Empire, GladOS's droid army and Skyline movie alien forces, with a dash of Neucom radical designs, Delicious!

Believe me anon, I would love to play with you, and see if you can prove me wrong if you think you can.

Of course, there is so much more.

Most honest trailer ever:
https://youtu.be/1Sl1WCZEQfg

>>2144626
>>2144627
i don't remember subbing to this subreddit

>>2144750
One reply, thanks anon.

No but seriously, human defenses in GreyGoo are super fun, you can make multiple selections over different kinds of weapon building turrets with a few commands and control the attack zone or/and unit to which direct fire, at last a RTS made it right and then you can teleport your turrets to another base entry to stop invaders, is super fun and effective. With some air support and tactics I have defended my base from literal 1759 of the STRONGEST units in one match(excluding epic units), is just so beautiful, pic related.

Now Terran bunkers and siege tanks are like things of an old age for me I can't go back anymore.

1:37 https://youtu.be/YSYpNigpVSg

>>2144877
Continued:
GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I think I need a bigger mechanical keyboard, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I need to mod the game, more control groups assigned to keybinds, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, the map needs to have a Homeworld sensors view mode, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I want to reenact more anime y movies in my playstyle, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I want to find my GreyGoo's Etou Kanami, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I need to increase my APM.

>>2144877
Continued:
https://youtu.be/tyJSmvky3ZA?si=Jy63dvL3j0OKVVb8

GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I think I need a bigger mechanical keyboard, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I need to mod the game, more control groups assigned to keybinds, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, the map needs to have a Homeworld sensors view mode, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I want to reenact more anime y movies in my playstyle, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I want to find my GreyGoo's Etou Kanami, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, GreyGoo, I need to increase my APM.

sc2 is shit tho
in fact I blame blizzard titles for the downfall of rts because it was their map modes that spawned the moba cancer that went mainstream

People like Day9 and Grubby made me realize why new mp games don't work

Playing to Engine's Weaknesses brings out the Meta and the magic of playing around its limitations
satisfaction comes from playing against limitations
the shittier the AI is the more pleasure you get from controlling it

And blizzard has no idea, they made pic related into a huge bloated shit and everybody just plays the old version which works smoothly and is more readable because it retained cool contrast

just how brood war now trumps boring shit that is starcraft 2

like rallying your death knight between your shop and your graveyard so you can immediately buy and summon

or how you select two groups and alt between them to quickly go down the ramp in brood war

whimsical stuff like that is the magic of the game and the reason why only blizzard rts games were ever worth playing

sorry forged alliance fags you get a honorable mention

>>2148949
>they made pic related into a huge bloated shit and everybody just plays the old version
if by "old version" you mean old graphics, then yeah
actual old version is only played by boomer vatniggers who use gameranger to play dota
reforged allows zooming out camera way further away than in the original, and it's the only reason I play the new client (without paying for reforged, even though blizz makes it incredibly difficult to download and patch the game without you paying for reforged)

>>2149072
>i install spyware bloat on my pc so i can zoom out a bit

>>2149077
yes, unironically
the game plays much better when you can zoom out more so your main building doesn't take 1/5th of the screen

>>2149082
shame there couldn't be a community mod for that then
and i did not play wc3 enough to know if this fucks up the premise, if the game being zoomed in was a part of its charm

>>2149085
i watched some grubby video where he reminisced about how angry he was initially at the changes
how he thought that having to keep pressing ALT all the time to show all unit bars, or having to play zoomed in was a skill expression
then he got used to the changes, chilled out and wouldn't ever go back to the old way

>>2149097
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjzYqqcFoU

i watched this video of him explaining some of the mechanics, i think that the game wouldn't work if they streamlined the controls like they did with sc2, his specific example is how well the zerglings surround protoss soldier in sc2 and how it actually takes away from the game because fighting against jank adds another layer of complexity and enjoyment and i agree, for example i always adored how in deus ex you just get going and everything works and you're switching items on the fly through its great ui
i think blizzard did it by pure chance at one point in time and to this day still nobody understand that game must feel snappy and enjoyable to play, that you get addicted to mechanics, not QoL and other appspeak

>>2149108
absolutely, unit movement and pathing are a necessary crutch to warcraft 3, you can see his words become fact with the warcraft 3 mod in starcraft 2 engine. Melee units become OP because of how good the pathing is and how you can no longer block stuff with large hitboxes.
Hero surrounds for example are a huge factor in warcraft 3 that you can reasonably block or prevent before they happen, and they're extremely easy to accomplish in starcraft 2.

>>2149130
i've become convinced games need to be designed with this in mind, not usability, it's the quirks that lend them staying power

>>2148949
What? Fuck no, fighting against bad UI and engine jank is the least entertaining part of RTS. It's not fucking enjoyable at all. You are a massive massive faggot.

>>2149182
NTA but getting shit pathfinding to work exactly the way you want it to is a feeling on par with learning how to swim or drive
nothing homosexual about it
also RTS esports took off precisely because pulling the shit that pros pull off is a sight to behold. It's not something a newbie or anyone else can do. The way they can control masses of units in brood war when you know if you did the same you'd fuck up everything and die immediately, that's a spectacle. That too has nothing faggot about it

People that want to fight the UI don't want to play the actual RTS. They just want to play a game and learn the mechanics of it for the sake of it.

>>2149310
and here we go back to the classic "muh 12 unit selection" argument. Git gud. Brood war won, you lost

>>2149426
Brood War is a MOBA, not an actual RTS.

>>2149429
I'm so sorry you're filtered by having to click more than once a minute

>>2149477
Fighting the UI doesn't increase the apm requirement. It just shifts it to what people spend it on. Remove fighting the UI, and the pros would have far more sophisticated unit control with their micro.

>>2149488
you say "fighting", but nobody struggles with the broodwar UI, I'm sorry about your difficulties

>>2149302
No it's not, it's fucking annoying.

>>2149302
I literally could not give less of a fuck about esports or what Koreans worship.