original thread:
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40468215/

ive been rather obsessively researching the topic further and i have reached a point where i feel i may pause in order to let the accumulated observations consolidate in my subconscious while waiting for the shipment of my copy of helmut barthel's "sorcery cold"

what ultimately is ice magick? ultimately ice magick is a particular form of gnosis or weltanschauung that that can be applied to any other process in life as a means of confronting the central problem of human powerlessness

this gnosis is attempted to be gathered through the experience with various phenomena. ralph mentions the 3 pillars of his teaching are motorics, conversation control, and social control. ultimately none of these are what ice magick is really about. they are all meant to be ways in which you can come to a holistic understanding of the core underlying principles behind ice magical thinking as they apply to the real world

if we are speaking mythologically there seems to be a few key themes that get contemplated:
1) world conflagration: the observation that all processes in the causal world rely on the combustion of resources in order to achieve some goal
2) impossibility: the magician is always on the threshold between possibility and impossibility. ice is a symbol of impossibility. we never measure the cold, we only ever measure heat. typically when we want to do something and it fails, our first thought is to put in more effort. an ice magician would instead suggest the opposite: "how do i work around all of the relevant variables in as effortless and efficient a fashion as possible" (http://www.tantientschuean.de/tan/boxen_e001.html)

>>40544754 (OP)
3) space: this concept is not only something that occurs in the context of combat, but also relates to one's general stance towards the world. typically when we face a problem, we blame external situations. rather than doing that, we focus our attention inward and try and see what internal variables in our body or our mind that we may modify as a means to solving the problem (https://www.kampfkunst-board.info/forum/showthread.php?37857-Helmut-Barthel-%C3%BCber-Tan-Tien-Tsch%C3%BCan ). at the end one wants to accumulate the general know-how to appropriately modify these conditions in any situation in order to approach that 100% effectiveness where possible (https://web.archive.org/web/20070901173243/http://www.inneres-boxen.com/?cat=8)
4) defunctionalization: all processes (not just behavioural but also emotional) must be deconstructed into their base parts in order to shatter any illusion of continuity. in doing so, one comes to observe various habits and pressures which effect the practitioner as well as the world around them. of course this realization can feed into the other principles above, in order to locate sites in which to progress the assault on reality
5) imperfection: in the process of defunctionalization and critical thinking, the concept of perfection in this world becomes more absurd. the ice magician is hence disposed to focus on correcting variables that go astray and managing around one's resources and constraints
6) goal-released engagement: a strange term which he connects (in the text 'living magic') to "mental magic" or "techniques of the empty hand". i speculate that this is similar to "unfolding pure meanings" in psychonetics. this would accord with the general impetus towards the precise modification of internal variables in order to achieve a result

>>40544773
7) dialectics: ralph described ice magick as "the dialectical fundamental critique of both conventional magic and the commonly prevailing narrative of human reality". by this he may have been thinking of something akin to hegel's "labor of the negative". the whole practice involves a progressive questioning of things until they can not be questioned anymore, and this questioning is applied to all aspects of reality to the point that this mode of thought becomes perfectly natural to the practitioner

some general remarks are in order:
1) in a forum someone by name of helmut II was shitposting about the alleged techniques of ice magick (https://web.archive.org/web/20171014204924/https://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16917). based off of my readings of the thinking of ralph, helmut, and helmut's other students, i can only conclude that this is bs. by extension, the alleged "ice magic reconstruction" (https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/28097099/#28102922) which appears based on the remarks from this forum seems to be largely bs. with that said, there are some ideas still worth salvaging i.e. "ice aura", "control", and "expulsion" but these ideas need to be integrated into a larger perspective

odd my power went off for a bit while posting this

>>40544782
2) tegtmeier alleges the ability of helmut to perform no contact techniques. if we actually look at his site and his remarks on such techniques (http://www.tantientschuean.de/tan/sache002.html) he believes that they are largely psychological. elsewhere, tegtmeier alleges contactless techniques in systema. these guys also believe that their techniques are largely a product of hypnosis with a sprinkle in of energy work (which seems more to be there to confuse the opponent) in combination with an understanding of the opponent's physiological processes hence the self-understanding of these guys seems to be largely physical or process-based as well (https://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/no-contact-combat). efficacy aside of this phenomena in actual combat, it largely comes from systematically understanding the behaviour of your opponent which ice magick excels in
3) the more i read, it seems less and less likely that the so-called ice magic wars actually have much reality to them. honestly there is a lot of bs floating around including seemingly from frater himself. as such, any competent (re)construction should focus on the core underlying ideas and work up from there

>>40544826
if we were to recreate the ice magick curriculum, we could possibly practice the following things:
motorics - look into tai chi and systema
conversation control - read 'secrets of speed seduction, home study course book and work book'
social control - general study of sociology. foucault, machiavelli, sun tzu, althusser, etc
ice magick techniques to learn: beyond the general internalization of ice magickal principles, you can also check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI_3bQ-EWSI
and do psychonetics exercises with this knowledge. then you can practice learning any desired skill you want with this in mind. action video games might be a useful medium for this, especially bullet hell games where one has to keep track of multiple objects at once or games that require a lot of multitasking or cognitive flexibility. these all strain your ability to efficiently allocate attentional resources for performance and learning

additional remarks:
as hinted before, psychonetics seems to have an approach to practices that could possibly synergize the ice magickal perspective. one interesting concept these guys make use of is "pure meanings" wherein they try and extract the pure meaning "sensation" from any given concept. this can be used for planning and coordination by unfolding said pure meanings into the environment. you can of course use decompose various processes into their pure meanings in order to freely modify them. psychonetics furthermore emphasizes effortlessness and being able to think about things systematically. a question ive seen in the archives regarding this discipline is "does it work?". the answer is affirmative. i had a friend who had developed many techniques that are very similar to psychonetics concept since they were a child and they were capable of rather remarkable results. in a visual search task, their speed was at a level that was near superhuman. they also had a very good intuition and reading speed

OP why you have red eyes?

How do i need to interpret that?

>>40544923
now obviously frater vd was influenced by helmut but who was helmut influenced by? allegedly, one such person was a sami shaman but i hardly have a clue what exactly such a person could have thought him. hopefully "sorcery cold" might help. some speculations on how the shamanic perspective might have contributed to things were also
1) spirit of playfullness and wonder that is cultivated as mentioned by a student of student of helmut
2) apparently shamanism in china may have evolved into qigong as a means to systematizing the imitation of animals. if this is true, there is certainly food of thought here as to the usefulness of mimesis. on this front, and also in relation to social control, it should be known that such techniques that ralph talks about would likely come natural to a factor 1 psychopath with interpersonal traits, who would also be a master of mimesis
on top of this there is this anecdote taken from a german forum with regards to what ice magic involved and helmuts abilities:

>>40544974
cuz im evil rawrr

>>40544975
https://www.allmystery.de/themen/ma125573
>Therefore, these people there developed a technique in which they, so to speak, grab an animal and it can no longer escape their grasp. It's very similar to holding a bird in your arm. If it wanted to fly away, it needed pressure to push itself off your arm. But if you don't offer the bird counterpressure, it is impossible for it to push itself off and fly away.
>Helmut Bartels says of his techniques that they are not magic, but simply a form of physical training. Bartels is supposedly able to perform true miracles. This naturally brought Tegtmeier, or Brother VD, into the picture, and he became Bartels's "student." VD is something of a running joke in Bartels' circles. He only visited Bartels three or four times, wrote down all these basic concepts, and transformed all these techniques, which according to Bartels have nothing to do with magic, into so-called "Ice Magic," and has since sold the whole thing for a high price to idiots who even believe him.

i also believe helmut's martial arts practice tan chien chuan could also be understood as a synthesis of tai chi and systema:
tai chi: iterative motion and perception (starting from the dan tien branching outward), inward feeling, pressure (various forces which elicit a response. this can also be seen in the social field)
systema: synergistic motion, repetition without repetition, body-thinking (letting your body come up to solutions on its own), effortlessness, efficiency, formlessness, way of the king, compulsion (ways your and your opponent's body naturally react to things)
innovation: inward focus philosophy (which builds on top of the repetition without repetition form of thinking)

>>40545093
on top of that he seems to implicitly bring his experience with the fraternitas saturni into some of his ideas. these guys believed in welteislehre (might be the origins of some of the far-right accusations) where the world was made of cosmic fire and ice. fire is an expansive force while ice is a contractive force. humans have a spiritual task to aid the saturn and earth in its contraction into the sun the sun, thereby redeeming them. saturn is sort of a mixture between a luciferian figure and also the demiurge of the solar system. he exists on the threshold between darkness and light. im guessing such a concept motivated this sigil here >>40544826, and also the theme of the magician existing on the threshold between the possible and the impossible. with that in mind, it would seem that the main ice magick sigil could be meant to symbolize contractive arrows of ice pointing into the centre while there is a singular arrow pointing outwards, to symbolize the idealized efficiency of movement wherein all other impulses are bound. it also resembles an icelandic binding seal as well. the fraternitas saturni also integrate concepts related to gnosticism and indeed their practice is a sort of "saturnian gnosis"

im also interested in parallels between this stuff and the thursatru tradition of heathen anti-cosmic satanism/chaos gnosticism (which incidentally the ice magick reconstructionist guys moved on to). for them the world was created by cosmic fire and ice which come from an acosmic reality. there also seems to be a similar mythological theme of liminality and gnosis

it should be noted that ralph seemed to have integrated the study of some gnostic ideas into his seminars as a means to conceptualizing human powerlessness. i think there might be great fruit in developing a general mythos that brings in the different ice magickal themes into one mythic worldview

>>40545156
all of this takes us to the idea of an egregore (enannah) to help integrate all of these myths and who would serve as a sort of complement to hidweh. before i didn't even have a seal for this being, but this time ive fashioned one a quick one a few days ago here the line in the middle is the "isa" rune which is associated with the cold unmoving phenomenon that is ice as a force of stability and prevention of motion or conflagration. it gets bisected by two lines that are influenced by the original ice magical sigils of contraction and limited expansion. here there's two of them placed in diagonals to also elicit the off-beat of the drum, the absences that punctuate between presences, and the process of defunctionalization itself. in bisecting isa, it cuts through the phenomenon of stability and powerlessness even as it is ultimately reinforced or recognized

the design of the being should be based upon the themes outlined earlier and perhaps some of the mythological ideas taken from these nordic/germanic gnostic cults

ive been developing some correspondences and imagery. serendipitously, enannah is 7 letters and i absent-mindedly wrote 7 themes

ice (against world-conflagration) - enki - 'ea' - sun
impossibility - nuit - 'nu' - venus
space - asherah - 'ash' - saturn
defunctionalization - naamah - 'naam' - mars
imperfection - shub-niggurath - 'nath' - jupiter
goal-oriented engagement - artemis - 'at' - moon
dialectics - hel - 'hel' - mercury

chant of will - 'eaash-helatshah'
chant of jewels - 'eaashnathnu'
name of abjection - 'enah-nan'
mantra of change - 'at hel nu ea naam nath ash atash atna tam'

use of mantras: while contemplating a practice session where a theme felt particularly relevant one can vibrate the corresponding syllable of enannah's name as one sinks their awareness into the heart (preferable the true heart which the tantrics talk about). this helps charge each syllable with kala. a similar concept can be done with the chants, this time with each syllable one contemplates a practice they felt most relevant

>>40545093
rawrr (paranormally)

>>40544754 (OP)
I dont like niggerz. i h8 niggers. 666

I heard white peepo are the only ones who can use this or something

>>40548456
such a notion would go against core principles of ice magick e.g. addressing human powerlessness and doing the impossible, so i doubt that is the case. even the people who tried to make stuff up in order to come up with a reconstruction dont think that ice magick is exclusive to people with the right ancestral lineage, even though they talk about ancestral memory and maybe the ability for someone who does not have such a lineage being limited. the reconstruction attempts so far seem suspect however so you can also take those guys with a grain of salt

I wish I could understand what you try to teach here

>>40550640
it's fine if you do not understand immediately. as you can see the first thread was posted 2 weeks ago and ive been reading, meditating, and drawing connections to other similar ideas over this stretch of time. there are pirated copies of frater vd's original book which you can find under the title "eismagie". aside from that i suggest reading around esp with regards to the influenes ive pointed out

speaking of, >>40544826
a book that tegtmeier recommends with regards to systema is 'System Guidebook: Inside Secrets of Soviet Special Forces Training'. it is important to read these things while trying to intuitively grasp the underlying principles and worldview at work. if you can you could also try and follow the makeshift ice magical curriculum i outlined here >>40544923 while trying to meditate and develop an intuitive insight of the core principles

it really is about cultivating a special view of reality and approach to problems

interesting remarks with regard to to psychonetics:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/JaAsMtxBtdFemsbx4/what-s-up-with-psychonetics
> Some borrowed, some novel, but all neatly organised into a framework that allows you to do mind state "algebra" first and then try to reach these new states you derived
>There is lot of mythology around outstanding results achieved using these techniques but neither Oleg nor other experienced psychonetics practitioners never demonstrated them to us, only relayed anecdotes.
>Special forces squad constructing and learning eidetic visual language tailored to muscular control. One guy "translates" his high knife-throwing skills into it, another one "reads" the description, goes through a short "comprehension" stage with flu-like symptoms, starts throwing knives almost as masterfully as the first guy.
>People breezing through Schulte Tables (e.g. https://drafterleo.github.io/schulte/) and similar exercises on hard mode (10x10, 4 colours, counting in different directions for each etc.)

I measure the cold. (' - ')

>>40554537
there are temperatures above 0 people may still consider warm. with the negative sign, coldness is simply being treated as a virtual quantity within a broader continuum of degrees of heat

>>40551072
What's the relation between ice Magick and social control? Thanks

>>40544754 (OP)
>>40545093
OP Angels Have red eyes OP

LIKE S. from this pic.

>>40556846
the notion that people only talk about themselves is key. the more you observe various conversations, the more you notice that people live in a fantasy reality most of the time. when you start noticing predictable patterns in people's behaviours it is hard to unsee. on the internet people behave in a manner that is even more mechanical thanks to social disinhibition. you can make use of this observation by inserting into other people's fantasies. this can make them feel like they actually have a deeper connection to you than you actually do. the speed seduction text i mentioned expands on this idea. you can also notice what pressures people are under and play to those in various ways

this idea can be expanded to larger sociology as a means of observing various social forces at play which effect you. by paying attention to these, your own position within society may be defunctionalized. knowledge allows you to maintain a certain distance from these various forces and hence a certain "coldness". i think the purpose of 'social control' was more in the direction of self-liberation than trying to manipulate others, while 'conversation control' deals with the sort of ideas mentioned in the previous paragraph

Did somebody say ice magick

>>40558459
maybe you gotta be an angel to truly master the ways of the ice..
https://medium.com/@angelicism02/angelicism-initialising-logic-2d8c08a41a36

>>40559935
ya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W190hlEhVs

Ice Magic, an initial view
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/icemag.html

Ice Magick Wars
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/icewars.html

>>40563085
>>40564661
yeah the ice magick wars stuff like i said earlier seems pretty dubious all things considered. i can't imagine how the actual philosophy he espouses fits with some sort of nazi thing. if you look at ralph's facebook page too he seems like at least a liberal, maybe more left wing. i do recall one german language forum imply that some of the ice magicians they knew seemed to be around more right wing spaces but that's a bit it when it comes to anecdotes about him. that thread was strange though because it started implying that the fraternitas saturni was under ralph's thumb which i seriously soubt

>>40548456
>>40550463
Yup. Just like how even white people can practice vodun.

random design that's been floating in my head

>>40564972
honestly wish ice magick was more of an ethnic religious practice because at least we would have more of a foundation instead of needing to reconstruct everything from scratch

something with regards to psychonetics that's been on my mind is its relation to magick as well
https://web.archive.org/web/20210618122733/http://deconcentration-of-attention.com/psychonetics.html
>A practitioner starts with somatic deconcentration and then unfolds a pure meaning into it. For example, a practitioner can unfold the pure meaning of heat into somatic deconcentration space to feel warmer in cold weather – or unfold the pure meaning of cold to cool down in warm weather.
>It is important to remember, that these kind of practices affect subjective body sensations and not necessarily the physiological capacity to withstand cold or heat. There were incidents of individuals getting pneumonia or getting overheated because of excessive reliance on mentioned practices.
this is remarkable as being able to modulate your body temperature is something that you can do manually, and with a very high consistency. see: wim hof, and tummo

while this is said it seems psychoneticists have experimented with the use of psychonetics towards magickal ends:
>There were also unconfirmed experiments on provoking synchronicities [3] by "freezing" an event in the abstract flow of time and then creating a special "tension"/"subtle anticipation" sensation that a synchronicity will occur.

combining these two observations, it suggests that while psychonetics may be a useful tool for deconstruction, it is not the be all and end all and must also be subjected to ice magick's dialectical deconstruction to ensure the efficacy results in real world effects. i would suggest that wim hof method might be a fun thematically-relevant litmus test, though might be too dependent on increasing rate of metabolism (and hence of combustion)

>>40550640
>>40551072
oh yeah, while i am at it, here are some other exercises that might be cool to try out:
1) practice vipassana and train your ability to see sensations at finer and finer resolutions
2) read ralph tegtmeier's high magick book, id hazard a guess that ice magick may have influenced some of his thinking of what exercises he laid out. this is very subtle though and you need to read between the lines. an example of this is when he says not to focus so hard on being able to visualize or see energies visually; rather you can train in the sense modality that works best for you first. behind that thought is an acceptance of imperfection and imploring the reader to consider priorities. a very ice magical way of thinking

>>40544923
>conversation control - read 'secrets of speed seduction, home study course book and work book'
imma check this out, even though it sounds like PickUpArtist kind of stuff

>social control - general study of sociology. foucault, machiavelli, sun tzu, althusser, etc
Maybe memetics can fit here too, and yes it is that theory that started with Richard Dawkins
https://memetics.miraheze.org/wiki/Memetics

Please bless me with lots of wealth, currency and money.

>>40544754 (OP)
This is not the ice magic I know of a which seemed to tear one occult order apart. That one was about a member who practiced it and could manifest casually and quickly, without any trancework, physics-defying phenomena.

>>40571657
can you tell us more?

this vid might be relevant as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K44mP8MQ7ak
the dorsal vagal is ultimately what is responsible for the freeze response and kria yoga (at least as pushed by this guy works with this vagal nerve). i elaborate a bit more here:
>>40573784

>>40575794
Woah. Thanks.

>>40544754 (OP)
I've always been interested in that and the hyperearvlore and all that stuff
Are there any books about the subject? What was its origin?

>>40545093
>>40544974
well, they say the devil well tell you to your face who he is and many will laugh it off.
check their fruit. anon admitted evilness; dont take it as a joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_xOrBm-yc

>>40579408
whats a hyperearvlore

>>40580962
so you are saying an anonymous autist on 4chan.org is going to bring out the end times