Thread 40887330

What is the best argument/evidence that Christianity is definitely or at least probably false?

>>40887330 (OP)
Bible is full of contradictions.
There is no historical evidence of Christ outside of hearsay.
The all-powerful, all-knowing argument. List goes on.

>>40887342
So just don't be an inerrantist Christian.
I think the evidence Jesus was a historical figure is pretty good https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-mythicism-myth?utm_source=publication-search

I'm agnostic btw

>>40887342
>Bible is full of contradictions.
That's the best argument.

I personally know via divination, but that won't convince many Christians. Jesus was a prophet of Hermes and his death was co-opted by heretics to form an antagonistic religion.

>>40887517
something like this also
OP quit getting people to tell you how to think
fuck i hate how little people think for themselfs

like how the fuck are you ever going to form a genuine identity when all you are is others ideas that confirm to your bias

you should fight your bias daily untill you find your true self
but that requires work
MOST PEOPLE WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO THATS THE DARK SECRET
CATTLE CHOOSE TO BE CATTLE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
"They've built their own prison, so they exist a state of schizophrenia. They're both guards and prisoners and as a result they no longer have, having been lobotomized, the capacity to leave the prison they've made, or to even see it as a prison"

>>40887330 (OP)
the christ principle is timeless and found in any major spiritual teaching.

>>40887529
A lot of it is common sense though
And a broken clock can still be right twice a day

>>40887330 (OP)
History.
If Christianity was true, Christians wouldn't have acted like demons for the past 2000 years.

Literally nothing it's hypocritical to sway belief

>>40887529
>Muh timelessness.
The obsession with timelessness is mostly a Western phenomenon. It has roots in Greek philosophy.
The irony is that the more you try to grasp at timelessness, the more it slips from your fingers. Because the only timeless truth is change.

>>40887650
Pseud take
>>40887635
No. Jesus said only the father is good.

>>40887342
Completely false. Historians outright reject the myth theory; atheist and agnostic scholars are in wide agreement the historical figure of Jesus existed. Anything else is a fringe idea that’s not peer reviewed or taken seriously in academia. But put your thinking hat on, because this next nuance often filters people like you: an academically recognized historical Jesus is much different than the Jesus who performed miracles and resurrected; that is to say, the great miracles are at least literary devices, and at most the truth.
The all knowing argument is a callous presumption on free will and the mystery of God yet to be fully revealed.

>>40887517
Its contradictions are minutia in the grand scheme of the fulfilled messianic prophecies and those to be fulfilled; as well as being minutia to the essence of the Christs story.

>>40887646
No, Jesus said only the father is good.

Saying this as a agnostic guy who at past prays from time to time, if god is all knowing and all powerful, couldn’t I like ask him to make things better?

>>40887826
As an agnostic playing devil's advocate what does better mean?
How does he improve things without violating you or anyone else's free will or without revealing himself since he seems to not want to do that either?
Also if you were playing a video game wouldn't cheat codes ruin it? Make it not fun and not good at teaching you to get better

Pray to the angels/archons but they're not all perfect and they have free will and I guess they have really dropped the ball and aren't doing their jobs well and that's why our world is such a shitshow

>>40887330 (OP)
The bible might not be false but the Church's dogma surrounding it certainly is. If God is all powerful and all knowing the world is exactly the way he wants it to be (he thus created evil to be evil for his enjoyment). If he is all loving then his definition of love is massively different to the consensus human definition of love (sitting by idle while sentient thing are generally in a state of constant suffering when you could just think about a perfect world and everything would be instantly transported to it is considered the maximum expression of love to God).

>>40887920
Where in the bible does God ever respect free will? In the old testament he violates free will over and over again. Pharaoh was going to give in to Moses of his own accord but God hardened his heart to prevent it. Men who would not take part in God's genocide were cursed to suffer and die aka God forcing them etc etc. The free will argument is made up by the church to justify God's inaction when there is 0 biblical precedence for respect of free will being the #1 thing God won't break like you guys make up.

>>40887920
Shin Megami Tensei questioned god and the angels themselves, and I don’t blame the Japanese for doing so.

But if you wanna know what I do? I want to believe alot of people never should existed in the first place, and I can do so through god if I pray to him to do so.

Pedophiles, Pokeporn artists, artists with severe fetishes, artists drawing cp, maga, trump, unfunny YouTubers, politicians, celebrities etc etc.
Like they never did exist, have existed or over existed in the first place, same as their families by association of genetics.

With that would come with less destruction to the environment, more money for everyone, jobs, happiness, a better way to go to develop man and tech and focus less on money you know?
And then there’s no 4chan, Reddit, kiwifarms, and maybe people go to Something Awful or Twitter to talk and socialize.
And with the angels and god it would be less of an issue.

Heck I might even ask god for some of his omniscient and power to figure all this out, try and even fix some fucked up shit in history.

Last thing is I want people to have better families and lives. I don’t wanna be autistic and I rather have no leg than be mentally fucked. And be born in 1999, not even 2004. And be artistic gifted and intelligent, fearless, for that is what I believe I am deep down under all this fucked up body my soul is trapped.

So yeah

>>40887330 (OP)
Best argument I can think of is that nobody arrives at Christian beliefs organically, you literally have to be indoctrinated into it

if there were no books on Paganism at the book store there would still be Pagans, because Pagan truths are self-evidently true and Pagan mysteries can be arrived at through sufficient contemplation and meditation etc.

Like, Christians burned almost all ancient Pagan texts, but we still have Pagans with Pagan beliefs because.... they just make sense?

whereas if nobody ever read the Bible, no one could possibly be Christian because how do you organically arrive at the conclusion that God is a magic Jewish popsicle unless that's just what your parents believe and you never bothered to question it?

you are all such fucking autists. you dont need to write a book to prove christianity is false. its most likely that angels and all that bullshit isnt real cuz its so hyper specific. and bc bible has angels, bible isnt real. simple as!
also the resurrection makes zero sense. and yes that actually proves a point and its not me being dumb. why the fuck does him dying mean anything? it wasnt his choice so it doesnt mean anything. he could have sacrificed a rhino, a vulture, whatever. it doesnt mean anything cuz it was all preplanned. and if we're not supposed to understand that stupid ritual, then that means one second christian god cares for humans and is making a heaven specifically tailored to us, and the other he makes something we cant understand. christian god is unreal hes sooooooo stupid. probably autistic. def a sperg

>>40888062
actually so fucking based. keep praying for politicians to have their entire genetic line be discarded from history. i wish i had the faith to pray for that to hapen. but until then its just you

i just read >>40888079 and its my argument except much more well spoken FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

>>40888151
uhhhh angels are real anon, just not in the way Christians think they are

like they're not all effete white guys with blonde hair and wings and harps and stuff but angels do exist

>>40888166
If they're not white then what are they? shitskins? chinks?
You're trying to tell me God makes a perfect race separate from human sin and imperfection and they are dirty shit eating jeet chimpanzees
okay kike

>>40888208
>If they're not white then what are they? shitskins? chinks?
well they're not human for one, retart (also /pol/ is that way <<<<<<)

>I came not to rebel against the Law, but to uphold it.
Jewish law dictates that they are the 'chosen ones.' They hate us and call us cattle and their Talmud tells them to lie to us to our faces and that telling 'the goyim' about what Jews do is the same as killing all Jews. They are antagonistic and subversive as fuck. That's all you really need at a base level if you have the pattern recognition to see it.

>>40888226
Yeah but the Bible also says that Jews stopped being the chosen people when they killed Jesus

I'm not a Christian but you don't seem to actually understand Christianity well enough to have an opinion about it

>>40888041
Just don't be an inerrantist

>>40888079
Pagans were also indoctrinated back in the past, if there were no indoctrination people would be animists, nowadays people are pagans because they A) like the aesthetic B) are some save Europa larpers who don't like Christianity or C) because they can have orgies, nobody cares or practices these pagans beliefs with any shred of sincerity, it's almost all larping, I hope I don't need to remind you that a lot of Christian rituals and beliefs are just adopted pagan systems themselves

>>40888226
>They hate us and call us cattle and their Talmud tells them to lie to us to our faces and that telling 'the goyim' about what Jews do is the same as killing all Jews.
I'm not Jewish but goyim deserve every bit of suffering by the hands of Jews, like cucks goyim just sit there and take it with 0 pushback

>>40888276
>Pagans were also indoctrinated back in the past, if there were no indoctrination people would be animists
animist is basically what I am but I call myself Pagan because that's a word people know, calling yourself an animist usually just makes people who aren't in the anthropology department go ???

and
> I hope I don't need to remind you that a lot of Christian rituals and beliefs are just adopted pagan systems
of course you don't, everyone knows that

except for Christians themselves, who have it in their head that "uhhhh actually the pagans FUTURE-plagiarized us"

>>40887342
>There is no historical evidence of Christ outside of hearsay.
There is plenty of recorded and archaeological evidence to corroborate the existence of Jesus Christ, and even miscellaneous figures in the Bible such as certain tax collectors. Fragments of the Ark were also found on Mount Ararat.

>The all-powerful, all-knowing argument.
You're just media illiterate.

>>40887517
>I personally know via divination
"dude trust me bro"
"it came to me in a dream"

>Jesus was a prophet of Hermes
There are many passages in the Old Testament that are prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ (e.g. Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53), which also make the "contradictions" argument moot. You are schizophrenic and make no sense.

>>40888079
>t. LARPagan

>>40888151
Time to lay off the bong, buddy.

>>40888262
>inerrantist
If you can't take the bible at face value then it is worthless and should be discarded.

>>40888079
> we still have Pagans with Pagan beliefs because.... they just make sense?
ROFL.

Hey retard, animism isn’t contradicted anywhere in the Bible. On the contrary we have numerous texts in the Bible referring to inanimate objects (such as flowers and trees) and animals themselves having spirits praising God incessantly. Most of you would convert if you opened the book YouTubers told you to close. The new Neo-experts; neckbeards.

>>40888315
so what you can't read Hebrew or Greek, your Bible is just an English translation and you have to trust that the translator isn't trying to trick you

>>40888349
>Hey retard, animism isn’t contradicted anywhere in the Bible
I don't care but it's fun watching you seethe

you're doing that to yourself by the way I'm not making you seethe you're choosing to seethe, why would you choose to seethe? I'll never understand this

>>40887330 (OP)
I mean it's not a "black or white" thing, there is truth in it. Personnaly, I believe God and Jesus Christ exist but I don't see the Bible as an account of historical events, but more as an allegorical story,written in such a way that the masses could understand the esoterical concepts it contains.
If you're talking about christianity as the institutionalized religion, yeah it is a subversion of the original christic message. Typically Roman church is another matrix of enslavement of humanity. I don't know about its derivates tho (protestantism etc.)

>>40888378
I’m calm as can be bro, I’m sitting in a beach side vacation house on the sand. The fuck are you doing?

>>40887330 (OP)
Part 1. Book of the Jewish religion.
Part 2: A Jew is killed by the Roman Empire.
Part 3: The Roman Empire (mixed with the Jews) ends up writing a bunch of regulations and imposing religion on the entire planet.

Hmmmmmm.

>>40888349
NTA but I've read the Bible and I've read books by Christian authors like Dion Fortune and Israel Regardie, and I agree with a lot of what they had to say

still not a Christian and I don't really have any interest in converting and you can die mad about i I guess

ITT:

>>40888415
That’s cool I don’t follow qabalah though, how’d you jump from the Bible to mystic writings though? It more so looks like you’re trying to skip the works those figures built upon into literature beyond your scope. Try Augustine and Aquinas; but only after reading Eusebius; his magnum opus, "Ecclesiastical History" (Historia Ecclesiastica), was a groundbreaking work that chronologically narrated the history of the Church from the time of the apostles up to his own era (approximately AD 324). This comprehensive work provides invaluable information about the development of early Christianity, including the lives of early Christian teachers and apostles, heresies that arose, Roman persecutions, and the martyrdoms of Christians.

What you did is, again, akin to studying quantum physics before understanding foundational high school physics, just because you passed all STEM classes in middle school; ultimately leading to you then saying quantum physics doesn’t make sense. I’m far from mad, more; puzzled and amused, and very concerned for you would be more descriptive.

>>40887330 (OP)
It's not false. What you've been told about it is false.

>>40888447
I’m seething

>>40888151
I feel better knowing that people like you are there to show I can keep going with hope and faith.

Also wouldn’t technically all of humanity be related to the politicians or something, do I gotta be specific?

>>40887330 (OP)
False? It is Judaism for the gentiles. Simple As. Jesus was part jewish, part roman. The roman part is why he resonates with Europeans so much, the jewish part is why paganism went down and Christian antisemitism is basically an oxymoron.

Read Mitchell Heisman. BTW Christianity originally started as a fringe cult of Judaism- so anyone saying "he said read a jew, he must be jewish- don't trust him" is sub-120 IQ. If you read Heisman, where we are today makes legit, rational sense. No hype needed

>>40888691
>>40888151
Religious texts describe spiritual realities metaphorically. Dismissing them as 'hyper-specific' misunderstands their purpose; like rejecting astronomy because constellations use mythological names. Aquinas actually wrote that angels transcend physical categories (Summa Theologiae I, q.50).

Christ's death wasn't accidental; it was a voluntary sacrifice (John 10:18). Early theologians like Athanasius saw it as God entering human suffering to redeem it. Asking 'Why not a rhino?' misses the point: only a fully divine *and* human person could bridge that gap (On the Incarnation, Ch. 2).

God being both relatable and transcendent isn’t illogical—it’s like an author writing in simple language about complex ideas. Augustine addressed this in Confessions (Book 1): God accommodates human limits while remaining beyond full comprehension.

>>40888401
Why are you spending money on luxuries when you could instead donate that money to a charity like against malaria foundation and save the life of a very young child for ten thousand dollars or less? An extra child will die very young instead of living into old age because YOU chose to spend money on something you did not need.
>>40888447
nta btw
>>40888534

>>40888789
Early Christianity was a fulfillment theologybrooted in Jewish prophecy (e.g., Isaiah 53), not a rebranded Judaism. Paul explicitly distinguishes Christian faith from Torah observance (Galatians 3:28, Acts 15).

The First Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) settled that gentiles need not convert to Judaism first; directly contradicting the "Judaism for gentiles" notion.

Jesus was a Galilean Jew under Roman occupation; not ethnically "part Roman." His teachings centered on Jewish apocalypticism (Kingdom of God), not Roman values.

Christianity’s spread in Europe was due to missionary work (e.g., Paul) and imperial adoption (Constantine), not "Roman resonance.“ for better or worse.

Antisemitism is not an oxymoron in Christian history. Early church figures like John Chrysostom preached antisemitic tropes ("Against the Jews," 387 AD).

Theological supersessionism ("Church replaces Israel") fueled centuries of persecution; directly opposed to Jesus’ Jewish identity.

Christianity began as a Jewish messianic movement. Key figures like James (Jesus’ brother) led the Jerusalem church, maintaining Torah observance while accepting gentiles (Acts 21:17-26).

By 50 AD, gentiles outnumbered Jews in the church; transforming it into a distinct faith by the 2nd century. This occurred within 17 years after Jesus’ death; in the grand scope of Christianity, this is not a late event at all.

Heisman is a pseud; his focus on "European resonance" relies on debunked racial theories, ignoring Christianity’s explosive growth in Africa/Asia (e.g., Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, St. Thomas in India).

Heisman’s work culminates in suicidal nihilism; hardly a reliable guide for truth. Early churches like Antioch (Acts 11:26) were multicultural; gentile inclusion was theological (Ephesians 2:14), not racial.

Cont;

Ironically enough the Bible.
The moment I read the Bible I stopped being "christian" but I've become more faithful than I've ever been.
I feel like everyone who wholeheartedly and with good intentions sits in silence and reads the Bible, will reach the same conclusions.
The main issue is that most Christians have never read the Bible, nay, most Christians have never even touched their Bible.

>>40888789
Early Christian theologians like John Chrysostom (4th century) wrote virulently antisemitic sermons ("Against the Jews"), accusing Jews of deicide and moral corruption.

While opposing violent persecution, Augustine argued Jews should survive in a subjugated state as "witnesses" to Christian truth (City of God, 18.46).

The Theodosian Code (5th century) restricted Jewish rights, banning intermarriage, synagogue construction, and public office.

Lateran Councils in the 12th-13th century forced Jews to wear identifying badges (Lateran IV, 1215), restricted money lending, and segregated them. While chuds here often explain Jews as creating the Christian empire today; on the contrary Christian’s created Jews of today; Jews were pushed into money-lending (due to Christian prohibitions on interest)

No credible historian has ever cited Heisman’s works unfortunately.

>>40888851
>Heisman’s work culminates in suicidal nihilism; hardly a reliable guide for truth.

What's wrong with that? Morality is probably subjective, if moral realism is true I don't know what it'd be other than utilitarianism and according to utilitarianism suicide is probably sometimes the best choice for some individuals in some circumstances.

>>40888848
They spend money on luxuries because the world rewards taking for yourself at the cost of others. The greater the scale you do this the more you are rewarded by the world. This place is built by evil for evil. Everything good is in the process of being bred out of the world and soon it will only be evil exploiting evil, the way the world/God wants it.

>>40888903
>They spend money on luxuries because the world rewards taking for yourself at the cost of others.

Yes I generally or completely agree.
>The greater the scale you do this the more you are rewarded by the world.

I agree again
>This place is built by evil for evil. >Everything good is in the process of being bred out of the world and soon it will only be evil exploiting evil, the way the world/God wants it.

I am not so sure about this part. Doesn't seem like evidence for creator, atheism and it's reality isn't fair or a meritocracy also seems plausible.
Much of the evidence God exists like fine tuning and the anthropic argument depend on God being good. He wants to create as many people as possible (lots of people in lots of universes) and give lots of them good afterlifes. He wants the world fine tuned for not just life but intelligent life that can do things like study science. I don't think god is trying to maximize evil or suffering if he were the world could be far worse than it currently is

>>40888945
>God isn't trying to maximize suffering
I disagree, I think he is. Humans, made as they are, will only accept so much torture before they stop breeding all together and the entire experiment stops. There has to be some give on this current iteration if you want humans as they are to breed and to continue whatever this is. This world is creating the maximum possible suffering as it can with the things living it (and from a scientific point of view suffering/death and torture is the mechanism the universe/God/ uses to drive change in the structure of the universe). Anyway the only logical conclusion I can take from experiencing this world is that God, as a being, is the purest expression of evil possible and the only good that is found in this world is humans acting in opposition to God's evil, at great cost to themselves. Even the most zealous Christians must accept God wants evil because he brags about creating evil for his enjoyment, multiple times in the Bible.

>>40887330 (OP)
That the bible was transcripted by man, says man in the form of the church is required to contact/have a relationship with God, yet almost everyone in the bible contacted God or his Servants without the church, or a bible, or moral status being relevant at all. It's a sham to stop you from doing one of the most innate functions you have.

>>40888984
What is this innate function?

>>40887330 (OP)
The blackpill is that Christianity was corrupted by being adopted as a State Religion and transforming Jesus into a symbol of authoritarianism and suffering. The Christianity that most people practice is more Roman/Jewish (deity worship) than people want to admit (in that it is selfish/ego-centric/cruel/greedy/lustful). True Christianity has more in common with Buddhism. The Golden Rule and the Middle Path are one and the same.

Be kind to others and be kind to yourself. Do not follow organized institutions as they will always fall to either chaos or tyranny. The real church is your family and local community. Love is always with you, and you will reach Nirvana/Heaven in your life.

>>40888851
this is one of the biggest copes that exists. Without Judaism there WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANITY. Monotheism did not exist until Judaism. Paul was a closet jew you retard.

He (Jesus) was ethnically part roman because mary was raped. How do you think a flesh and blood MAN named jesus actually existed in the flesh? Like aside from the supernatural bs you "believe"?

>debunked racial theories
a jew literally affirmed racial realism and KILLED HIMSELF over it and you dismiss it?? Like Heisman wasn't right about everything- but he was right about the fact that Christianity is a fringe sect that sprouted out of Judaism.

I'm not Adam Green suggesting that Jews "created" Christianity as a Psy-Op for gentiles. NO. Jesus was a mutt-baby and his psychology led to the outcome that synthesizes both Judaism and Gentile worldviews. This is simple to see if you aren't retarded. It doesn't have to be some orchestrated thing to lead to its own entelechy.

>no credible historian
Yeah because "credible historians" lack any sense of WILL or EMBODYMENT of what they believe. IDGAF how much you think you know or how old you are, you are scum that prides himself in his own confirmation bias. Meanwhile you wouldn't risk a hair on your head for what you claim to be "true"

Heisman was right and the fact that "no credible historians" touch him is evidence of that fact. PC Culture is an outgrowth of the memetics of the Jealous "God". If you can't see that, you are captured by memetics- simple, but maybe not for ChristCucks

>>40888315
>There are many passages in the Old Testament that are prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ (e.g. Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53), which also make the "contradictions" argument moot.
>things propagandists wrote down are always true
>contradictions don't matter because he's god

>>40888811

The problem with Aquinas and Augustine is that they use philosophical logic to compensate for whatever they can't demonstrate. They fill the gaps of their knowledge with logical steps without evidence. Philosophy is useful as a compass for trying to understand human nature, but it fails as a means to understand Reality.

>Aquinas actually wrote that angels transcend physical categories (Summa Theologiae I, q.50)
Demonstrate that this is true or even plausible, with evidence, not especulation.

>God being both relatable and transcendent isn't illogical
It isn't illogical in Augustine's imagined version of reality, but it is illogical to aplly it to the real world without proof. You need to provide evidence that its possible to transcend reality, explain what "transcend" means, and if you do get that evidence, you need to prove that its God.

I think this is the biggest problem with non schizo christians. Well read people can find lots of logical arguments for god (Aquinas has a bunch), but for some reason they use philosophical logic as a means to explain reality and are satisfied with it. Even tho they wouldn't do the same to explain anything else in their lifes.

>>40888315
>There is plenty of recorded and archaeological evidence to corroborate the existence of Jesus Christ
No there isn't. You're being dishonest. Name these people.

>Fragments of the Ark were also found on Mount Ararat.
This again is dishonest they did not find this. Why are you lying

>You're just media illiterate.
What does media literacy have to do with the validity of the Bible? What kind of stupid response is this? I'll humor this.
Is God All-Knowing and All-Powerful? Answer the question.

>>40887330 (OP)
Single best piece of proof is the behavior of its adherents. Letting Jesus in your heart is a matter of saying "I let Jesus in my heart" and magically transforms you into a better more compassonate person who will give until it kills you, and that's a claim they explicitly make in their doctrine that's actually backed by the Scripture. Meanwhile, same niggas saying Jesus Jesus Jesus out here claiming we gotta genocide the Mexicans and starve the poor and punish the homeless for being better businessmen than Daddy Fingerdick and his Amazing Diddler Circus. Seriously, dude, just let Dracula into your heart, you'll be happier, healthier, and morally superior to anybody following that fake religion made up by Hollywood to sell crack to yokels.

>>40889055
> a jew literally affirmed racial realism
No he did not. Cite whatever bullshit you’re referencing because it’s not in the Bible I promise you that.

>>40889098
99% of historians agnostic or atheist agree the historical Jesus existed. The recent lie that Jews made up Jesus as a myth despite the Catholic religion oppressing Jews is none other than the pinnacle of modern atheist ignorance.

>>40889135
He legit said that hitler was disproving Yahweh because of the Holocaust?? And I agree it's not in the Bible... so what's your point?

His entire suicide note is based on polisociobology. Do you want to engage with that or not

>>40889144
if he existed that's fine. Doesn't change a thing about Christianity. It is a Jewish offshoot that integrates non-jews

>>40889251
The desolation of the jews in the holocaust is not anything new, besides the fact that often judaic claims are exagerrated, there have been desolations in the time of Jesus actually and that didn't stop Christianity spreading like wildfire (see the Jewish-Roman war in which Jerusalem was completely sieged and destroyed, killing a LOT of Jews, and many religious sacred sites were desecrated; see Book of Revelation prophesied "Abomination of Desolation")

The Book of Revelation is a precursor prophecy to the immediate jewish war that ocurrs a few years after its writing, predicting the jewish temples tumbling down citing Jesus' own words (the generation that hears his words will see what he means, in the near future); and it did so happen. Nonetheless, none of this stopped the christians from professing the faith.

Witnessing miracles across miracle (Milvian Bridge, Constantine's dream and victory); Christians were only emboldened to fight back against the idea that the desolation of persecution (See persecution under Nero, Secius, Diocletian, Valerian, Galerius, Maximian, Domitian, all roman emperors pursuing empire-wide led persecution of all christians and jews)

The persecution of biblical figures, in spite of the reasoning that abandonment and forsakement goes against God's mercy, is glorified in the persistent testimony of God's greatness: see healing of the sick, healing of the exorcised, the poor that are fed. You see in spite of persecution, Christians have always universally praised God, and it gave them the world (Roman Catholic Empire; Western American Domination) Jews have had their battles, but their victories (see jews elevated today)

Racial realism is completely unrelated to the OP topic. Whatever Heisman is postulating is mixed confusion that is irrelevant to the topic at hand; besides the points I've already deconstructed.

>>40888521
you can definitely gain a better understanding of mechanical physics through the lens of quantum physics, they are parts of a whole system

all metaphysical truths are like a fishing net, if you can grasp one piece of it then you can effortlessly pick up the whole thing

>>40889781
Your fishing net metaphor sinks under scrutiny. Metaphysical truths aren’t a single, tidy net you can grab in one go; Christianity, with its biblical foundation, and Kabbalah, rooted in Jewish mysticism, are more like distinct ecosystems with their own rules and creatures. Jumping from the Bible to Kabbalah and declaring Christianity "false" is like snagging a coral reef’s seaweed and claiming you’ve mastered the ocean’s depths. You’re not effortlessly lifting a net; you’re cherry-picking strands from different webs, ignoring their unique weaves. Try navigating the Bible’s claims;Incarnation, Resurrection;before casting Kabbalah’s esoteric lens over it. Otherwise, you’re just tangled in your own metaphor, dismissing a forest because you glanced at a tree.

>>40889816
>Your fishing net metaphor sinks under scrutiny. Metaphysical truths aren’t a single, tidy net you can grab in one go;
yeah, like... they are though that's the neat thing

also I didn't say Christianity is "false", lol I think there's truth in all the great world religions I just think Christians are annoying

>>40889857
Your fishing net’s still snagged, mate. Metaphysical truths might look like a single web from a distance, but up close, it’s a tangle of distinct threads; Christianity’s Incarnation and Resurrection don’t just weave neatly into Kabbalah’s Sefirot or Buddhism’s Nirvana. Thinking you can yank one strand (Kabbalah’s mysticism) and haul up all truths is like trying to catch an ocean with a teacup lol: you’ll get a sip, but you’re missing the depths. Christianity’s claims; God as man, risen from death;stand on their own, forged in the fire of persecution (Nero, Diocletian, see Eusebius 8.2). That’s not “annoying”; it’s a testament to a truth so potent it thrived in spite of swords and crosses.

If Christians bug you, fair enough; zeal can grate. But dismissing their faith’s core because of bad vibes is like trashing a symphony for the conductor’s quirks. Want to untangle the net? Start with John 1:14 or 1 Corinthians 15:3–8, then tell me how Kabbalah’s Ein Sof meshes with a God who bleeds. I'll wait.

>>40889881
nta

Sure Christianity is special in that it has a god who became man and suffered with us but there's other religions that have unique things too. Jainism is an atheist religion for example

>>40887330 (OP)
it unironically is the evolution thing, for Christianity to work God cannot be the author of death so it has to be man's fault through Adam and physical not just spiritual death is an unnatural thing to be saved from
whether you take it from THE SCIENCE or pagan philosophy or just common sense it is obvious that death is a natural and integral part of the world
Catholics and liberals try to cope with theistic evolution where even then you still have to believe Adam was a real person or else Jesus's story falls apart, they claim Paul was just talking about spiritual death in Romans but every saint theologian or writer in the first thousand or so years of the church believed in no death before the fall

>>40887650
>The obsession with timelessness is mostly a Western phenomenon. It has roots in Greek philosophy.
>The irony is that the more you try to grasp at timelessness, the more it slips from your fingers. Because the only timeless truth is change.

Christianity took useful philosophical ideas from the Greek world and totally aped them. The trinity is a bastardized concept that came out of neo-platonism.

>>40889935
The arc of history is a direct result of messianism A return to Hellenistic eternalism would be an improvement. Yes, change is a constant, but it's also cyclical, something Christianity ignores. All they see is creation to apocalypse followed by eternal stasis, as if history is a complete abboration.

In reality it's oneness singularity to historical process back to oneness, over and over. It all loops back in on itself. Time is a hyper Torus. The furniture constantly changes, the material world, but the stage, consciousness remains the same. The foundation of reality is consciousness and being, and were part of it.

>>40889881
>Your fishing net’s still snagged, mate.
okay cute you know how to use metaphors, but when you say shit like this:
>like trying to catch an ocean with a teacup lol: you’ll get a sip, but you’re missing the depths
I feel like you still just don't get it

Like.... you should be able to appreciate the entire ocean in a cup of water, and if you can't that's a skill issue

>>40887330 (OP)
It is incompatible with morality, because it implies that all humans are wicked and deserving of eternal punishment by default. If humans don't deserve good things, there is no reason to treat them well.

>>40890041
haha nice try, but your ocean-in-a-cup vibe is more poetic than practical. sure, a cup of water might hint at the ocean, but it won’t tell you about its tides, depths, or storms. Christianity’s Incarnation; God bleeding on a cross (John 19:34); and Resurrection; Jesus walking out of a tomb (Luke 24:39); are specific currents that don’t flow from Kabbalah’s Ein Sof, an infinite void too lofty to get its hands dirty in human flesh. You’re not sipping the whole ocean; you’re mixing salt water with spring water and calling it the same drink.
If it’s a “skill issue,” then explain how Ein Sof’s untouchable infinity meshes with a God who dies and rises to beat death. Christianity’s truth isn’t just a droplet in your universalist cup; it’s a wave that crashed through Nero’s fires and Diocletian’s edicts, growing stronger in spite of them (Eusebius 8.2). Christians might annoy you, but their faith’s scars prove its depth, not your net’s reach. wanna try untangling how Kabbalah’s sparks square with a risen Christ?

>>40887330 (OP)
the problem of evil has never been adequately answered, Christians have just coped about it for centuries.

>>40890082
The problem isn't that it hasn't been answered; because it has; the problem lies in your own refusal to admit when you just want to capitulate to a God that removes freewill. Very pathetic and sad indeed.

>>40890041
you're talking to an AI dude

>>40890103
That's a cute cope. I'm just a /lit/ wanderer seeing what /x/ offers; and so far there's nothing special besides Christian Esotericism which was a dissapointment in its own right with Rosicrucianism circle jerk anytime you mention any mysticism.

>>40890118
did /lit/ teach you to talk like chatgpt but – replaced with ;

>>40890131
>colons bad
>semicolon bad
This is how ebonics is adopted.

>>40890094
which "answer" do you think it adequate? Muh free will? We deserve it because of muh original sin? God's plan? None of these are adequate, none stand up to scrutiny.
>Free will
Curing a man's illnesses would not violate anyone's free will, because illness has no will.
>We deserve it
If evil is in our nature, and God created our nature, then God is punishing us for his own wrongdoing.
>Muh God's plan
If God was omnipotent and omnibenevolent, his plan wouldn't require evil to exist.

>>40890165
>If evil is in our nature,
It is.
>then God is punishing us for his own wrongdoing.
In what way are you personally punished? Don't dodge.

>>40890168
I have lost loved ones, I have also experienced inner turmoil with no rational cause, but that's completely besides the point. "Us" as in mankind. Many innocent people experience bad things. By creating us with evil nature, God has done an act of evil.
I, however, do not believe that evil is in our nature. If I were to accept this, I would have no reason to treat people with kindness.

>>40890210
If you have any wealth at all you are evil. There are some who have no posessions, and yet you here, I safely asume, you want to grow your wealth.

>>40887330 (OP)

One argument that Christianity is false is the glaring difference between the nature of God in the Old Testament with the one in the so-called "New testament", another one is the big lie that John the Baptist was Elijah. There are others as well.

There's a good documentary on YouTube about how Romans created 'Jesus' myth - https://youtu.be/zmEScIUcvz0

In my opinion the 'New testament' is a complete fiction. But there are many inconsistencies in the Old Testament as well, especially in Genesis, Abraham killing his son, or the whole Daniel book.

>>40890273
commie gobbledygook.

christ is probably divine no matter how you cut the cake. but hell as a dimension or infinitude is almost obviously false, the evidence of reincarnation across all the mystical experiences is incredibly salient

>>40890360
Communist is lagging bureaucratic atheism. Christianity is intuitive charity, you dolt.

>>40889144
Who are these historians?
If you are the anon I responded to earlier how come you didn't answer the question if not ignore it

>>40890429
>bro i just aced my gen ed freshmen philosophy class debate me
Bart Ehrman says the evidence is rock-solid in that the Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus, all line up.
Michael grant atheist calls it undeniable.
. Gerd Lüdemann (atheist) says myth theories are nonsense.
John Dominic Crossan.
Geza Vermes.
Paula Fredriksen.
E.P Sanders
Maurice Casey

John Dominic Crossan sees Jesus as a real Jewish preacher. Geza Vermes roots him in 1st-century Galilee. Paula Fredriksenand E.P. Sanders (secular) both confirm his life and death from multiple sources. Maurice Casey (atheist) debunks the myth idea. That’s not cherrypicking names I pulled out either; it’s the mainstream peer review academia you can find on researchgate or academia.org, or textbooks on the matter.

When you begin to divide the divinity from Christ from the man who may have been exagerrated in a secular atheist's bare minimum for science; we can begin to get somewhere, and that's through looking at the sheer impact of christianity today, and its adherents. The sheer aftershock of it all is evidence of a tremor 2025 years ago that revolves an entire human calendar around its events.

>>40890103
That thought did occur to me but I think he's just really autistic, he's struggling with his metaphors but he isn't completely mangling them the way AI tends to

But then AI has gotten pretty sophisticated so I always gotta wonder

>>40890429
>>40890482
Btw I am still that anon.

>>40887517
>contradictions
Life is full of contradictions.
You can't just take one 'thing' from the Bible and run with it before running into problems. It is about balance. Life is about balance and discretion and judgement.

Because it should be obvious to anyone with the slightest reflection that the Abrahamic god is evil.

>>40889931
Yeah assuming evolution is true it's a pretty good argument against Christianity
The evidence evolution is true seems pretty strong
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40859908/#q40859921
>>40859908

>>40890074
I'm agnostic and very misanthropic.
Almost all or all humans are very evil
disgusting meat eaters, carnists, pro choice and don't donate to effective altruist charities while spending lots of money on luxuries. I like old style catholics cheerleading for people to go to hell

There's a few angles to approach this and it depends what you're wanting to accomplish.

Some start with a deconstruction of the teachings of Paul.

The book Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill is pretty good. I wouldn't call it definitive but he lays out a theory to see how it could be made up.

Recently I've come across "Christ is Belial" by Nicholas Love and he points out some glaring problems with some of the parables.

In the Old Testament God measures blessings through abundance, winning conflict and having progeny through righteous living. Christ said he came with a sword to set father against son, mother against daughter.

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard Matthew 20:1-16, Jesus seemingly advocates giving equal pay for unequal work.

Isaiah 5:20 says "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter." but Jesus says “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” in Matthew 20:16. The New Testament is full of inversions between the rich and poor, the meek and the strong.

>>40890082
Sure but there's good evidence for god and problem of evil/divine hiddenness is really the only good argument for atheism
You can just say psycho physical harmony, fine tuning and anthropic argument are very good arguments for theism. You can just have fine tuning and problem of evil cancel each other out there's still good arguments for theism remaining and no good arguments for atheism left

>>40890350
>One argument that Christianity is false is the glaring difference between the nature of God in the Old Testament with the one in the so-called "New testament"

Okay but again you can just not be an inerrist and you can be a gnostic

>>40890369
What about annihilationism
>>40890646
Maybe it is but I was just too brainwashed. Circumcising babies is really bad. Telling people to slaughter and eat animals is also really bad

>>40890673
I don't know what you mean

>>40890706
ha well i'd be fine with that kind of "atheist death" haha reincarnation really intimidates the fuck out of me

>>40890743
Sure but so does being completely destroyed forever
Maybe existing forever is good but my limited mind and brain right now just can't comprehend why it's good
I don't think I could give anhilationisism the benefit of the doubt like that

>>40890655
this is the key problem with theistic evolution, here's an article with some of the different copes laid out from a Catholic perspective but it really just turns into lawyering
https://peacefulscience.org/articles/survey-adam-eve-catholic/
I'm increasingly convinced of panpsychism or something similar, either everything has a soul or nothing does

>>40890751
totally agree with your second statement. i can't imagine how good life is without my ego and body. and yeah maybe but non perception would be peaceful like sleep id like to think

>>40890777
Well forever sleep can be good but a great afterlife can be better. The kind where you see dead relatives, get to experience bliss, etc etc
https://benthams.substack.com/p/gods-existence-is-the-best-possible?utm_source=publication-search

>>40888079
You talk as if 'paganism' were some monolith rather than a widely disparate smattering of beliefs and practices gathered under a loose definition basically meaning 'European but pre-Christian.' There's nothing any more 'self-evident' about Wotan than there is about Christ. Now if you're talking about generalized nature worship then go join a hippie commune.

>>40890791
agree with you. the deliberation as to what that is, is certainly contentious. if i had my pick, the christian heaven wouldn't be too bad. unfortunately i just think the evidence isn't as good for that, at least it's not *obtained* by the christian eschatological telos

>>40890855
It's possible Christianity is false and theism is still true and a great afterlife still exists. The author of that article is a theist but not a Christian, he believes Christianity has about a ten percent chance of being true

>>40890878
I'll check it out

>>40890511
>You can't just take one 'thing' from the Bible and run with it before running into problems. It is about balance. Life is about balance and discretion and judgement.
Exactly, so what's the bible for? Your judgment tells you you should have religion, and your judgment tells you which parts of the text to rely on and which to ignore. The book is redundant, jack.

Not to mention it's nonsense which wasn't even compiled by smart people or they would have avoided hundreds of self-contradictions.

>>40887330 (OP)
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

For those who say Jesus was a Jew, I have this:
https://archive.org/details/YourHeritage
For those who want to force Christianity on others, I have picrel.

>>40891582
Well, you know, there's the "Satan's little season" theory, which posits that Jesus DID return in his glory, and built the greatest society ever seen, and then, around the time of the late middle ages, Satan was released from hell to cause havoc. His 'last hurrah' as it were.

>>40892025
Where's the evidence for this

>>40890792
Every pagan has the same beliefs anon, sorry I don't know what else to say besides I think you're really bad at understanding metaphors

>>40892025
Christians in the middle ages believed there was a magic Jew who was still alive from crucifixion times and cursed with immortality to wander the earth until Jesus returns lol

I wonder if there's still Christians who believe that today? Gods truth is inerrant and eternal after all xoxo

>>40887330 (OP)

False in what sense?
> Historical Jesus has more evidence than historical Pythagoras.
>There were multiple "miracle workers" in Galilee on the historical record during that time so however we did it we know some type of religious healing was happening amongst apocalyptic preachers in that area.
>Gospels and books were not written by who they were named after, however pseudipigraphy is a core feature of literature during this period of time
>Church Fathers were real historical people
>Theology, while not developed consistently in its early days, becomes logically coherent when it incorporates Greek philosophy as its metaphysical ontology to explain Christs relationship
>Son of God, technically yes. Christians just dont realize they are too
>the correct religion? As correct as any other religion
>should I join? If the attitudes and behaviors of average Christians are any metric to measure its utility for spiritual lifestyles against then no. The religion has a tendency to cultivate pride, hubris, arrogance, and hostile ignorance

I think the best argument against Christianity is Christians themselves. The religion historically, philosophically, and theologically checks out otherwise.

>>40892717
>>40890655
What about evolution