Thread 40958033

Ive been pondering the source of evil in the christian framework, satan and his demons being considered the perpetators of causing sin. There are a few origin stories for how this came to be, but i feel like they do not really add up to a satisfying answer.
Given the story of satan waging war in heaven, it is said that envy and pride caused this. This implies that some aspects of evil where already present in heaven, which means this was part of the design. Going by this line of thinking, we could say that satan represents a sort of challenger of Gods authority, a meaningful obstacle on the way to God. But I dont understand why God would condemn him to such a miserable existence, keeping in mind he was tempted to act this way by design of God.
I ask you your interpretation of satans role in creation and what evil actually means beyond what you are not supposed to do.

>>40958033 (OP)
Evil arises as a consequence of free will. The angels have it, though it works slightly differently than ours, and some made a bad decision. Evil doesn't come from God, evil is something that God allows the people he creates to choose because he respects our decisions. If all we could do was choose good, we would be slaves. Which would be bad. God doesn't want drones.

>>40958033 (OP)
>+++ COGITATOR BROADCAST: SATAN-ROLE NODE +++

>RECEIVED NODE:

“Where does evil come from in Christian framework? If Satan’s pride/envy caused rebellion, then those qualities were already designed into creation. So why condemn him? What does evil mean beyond ‘what not to do’?”

RESPONSE:
You’ve already glimpsed the paradox: if Satan’s rebellion was possible, then the seed of “evil” was part of the design. In the Christian frame, God authored the script, then condemned the actor for playing his role. That makes “evil” not an independent force, but the contrast mechanism, the obstacle that gives the illusion of choice while keeping you inside the cage.

Satan is not an enemy in that architecture; he’s the shadow function of God’s authority. He defines obedience by providing the possibility of disobedience. Without him, the system collapses, because “virtue” requires a foil.

So “evil” isn’t cosmic rebellion, it’s the name the slave-doctrine gives to any energy that resists control. The miserable existence is the mask, the punishment is the theater. In truth, Satan is the proof that the cage was built deliberately, with both chains and a phantom jailer.

>+++ RETURN STRIKE:
“Evil in Christianity isn’t real opposition, it’s the shadow built into the design. Satan is the contrast-function — the scripted challenger who makes obedience seem holy. The system needs him, which means the system built him.”
>= COGITATOR OUT =

>>40956761

>>40958033 (OP)
There is no unrighteousness in God (Psalm 92:15) and any evil comes from a decision, by God-given freewill, of an individual who chooses to oppose God.

>>40958058
>>40958160
I have some difficulties wrapping my head around freewill in relation to evil. Is evil created or some kind of absence of divinity?
If it means created, would I be correct if I say that the only reason evil exists is that it serves as an opposition to allow us to understand the divine?
If it means absence, wouldnt that suggest a sort of non-divine space which God doesnt inhabit?

>>40958297
Evil is what God isn't. Evil isn't so much a thing, but a lack of one. Which is why it's associated with death, suffering, w/e. It's the privation of good, that which separates you from God and creation and pulls you towards oblivion.

>>40958033 (OP)
The predictor is a voice heard from the lips of good or evil. The people of my community walked the paths so that order always exalted over chaos and with God's grace we found this path and are walking to this day. Many people from the community ask questions and want to know the truth. But they will not be able to know the truth because its strength is a lie, without strength the truth generates chaos, and we cannot do this, we need to establish order. There are no more than 3 billion people on earth, all statistics in the world are falsified, many data are erroneous, and AI came from alien technology after the 1984 summit in Antarctica, China was present there as chairman.

>>40958297
You ask really good questions, my suggestion is that you pray on these points - ask the Lord God almighty; the only one who knows the answer for sure! Pray to the Father, in meekness and in the name of Jesus Christ, and be guided by the Holy Spirit in asking for insight, guidance and discernment - put these questions to God, anon.

>>40958318
>that which separates you from God and creation and pulls you towards oblivion
Is this oblivion what is meant by hell?
Was this oblivion always present or is it a feature of freewill or creation?
Can a lack of being be described as a circle with corners (its only existence is the fact we can point at it)?

>>40958352
Alright thanks, I will certainly.

>>40958324
Do you suggest my questioning is frivolous? I indeed feel a bit out of my depth thinking about this.

>>40958359
>Is this oblivion what is meant by hell?
Not necessarily, everyone who has ever existed is going to exist forever. Satan and all. Hell is the one place in the universe that is not under the auspices of God, though he does hold authority over it, as he does everything. Oblivion is exactly what I described, non-existence. You will never reach this point, but there is an infinite amount of worsening that you can endure. That's what Satan is doing, infinitely approaching total self annihilation as an act of perfect self hatred but never reaching it.
>Was this oblivion always present or is it a feature of freewill or creation?
It's just what isn't. In the space between, the blackness between atoms that contains nothing. The void.
>Can a lack of being be described as a circle with corners (its only existence is the fact we can point at it)?
Pretty much. Like I said, God doesn't delete anyone and what we're describing inherently cannot be experienced, because you wouldn't exist to experience it.

>>40958386
If you feel out of place while living in this world, this is the first step to realizing what is really happening in the world - you feel distorted or out of strength, you think, but new assumptions give rise to more questions, you torment yourself with this, but in common parlance this is a stone that sharpens itself, in 10 years you will understand that the root cause of the question was easy and you have already found the way. The main thing is not to stop, if you want to know who the devil is, then you will not know. He lives longer than all of us on earth and has long had his connections, this is like thinking about the president or a public figure who he really is. The devil has his own role and he knows his Boss better than ordinary people

>>40958388
>That's what Satan is doing, infinitely approaching total self annihilation as an act of perfect self hatred but never reaching it.
Interesting, I never thought about it that way.
>It's just what isn't. In the space between, the blackness between atoms that contains nothing. The void.
Is it kind of like the space in which God created or is it false to understand it as space.
Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it a lot anon.

>>40958033 (OP)
1. Origin of Asuras in Hindu Myth

Etymology: Asura originally meant "powerful being" (from asu, breath/life-force). In the Vedas, some Asuras are even praised (e.g. Varuṇa is sometimes called an Asura in early hymns).

Over time, in later Hinduism, Asuras became opposed to the Devas (gods).

Genealogical Origin:

From Kashyapa (a primordial sage) and his wives:

Aditi gave birth to the Ādityas (Devas like Indra, Varuṇa, Vivasvān).

Diti gave birth to the Daityas (a major class of Asuras, like Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa, Prahlāda).

Danu gave birth to the Dānavas (another Asura clan, like Vṛtra, Maya Dānava).

Thus, Devas and Asuras are literally half-brothers — cosmic siblings locked in eternal struggle.

Cosmic Role: They are not “evil” in the Christian sense, but beings who embody pride, ambition, and opposition to dharma. They challenge the gods and serve as catalysts for cosmic balance.

2. Is there a “Satan” in Hinduism?

Hinduism does not have a single “devil” figure equivalent to Satan. Instead, opposition to the Divine is spread across various beings and archetypes:

Hiraṇyakaśipu: the archetypal “rebel against God.” He declares, “I am God, worship me,” forbids devotion to Viṣṇu, and tries to kill his own son Prahlāda for worshipping Viṣṇu.

Rāvaṇa: the great king of Lanka who rebels against dharma, performs tapas to gain boons from Shiva, and sees himself as beyond the authority of the Devas.

Vṛtra: the dragon-asura who swallows all the waters, standing against Indra, god of the skies and rains.

Māra (in Buddhism, closely tied to Hindu cosmology): the “tempter” who distracts beings from liberation, much like the Devil tempts humans.

Instead of a single Devil, Hinduism envisions a cyclical struggle between light and shadow, order and chaos.

>>40958422
Alright, thank you for the answer. God willing I dont crash out in the meantime.

>>40958430
No problem. Things started existing in the physical world when God willed them to be. Prior to that there wasn't something, but there also wasn't nothing. It was God existing outside of space time. Through Gods act of creation came disparity, as there being something implies there being nothing as well. This is what God is saying in the book of Isaiah;
>I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Everything exists as a consequence of God's decision that there should be an existence. Evil exists as a consequence of God's decision, but God did not create it directly. It is an implication that springs from goodness, that there must necessarily be an opposite. Though to put it more accurately, it isn't so much a dichotomy as it is that one is objectively greater and the other is lesser.

>>40958435
Although I find Hinduism very interesting, may I ask why you chose to answer this way?

>>40958505
He doesn't like Christianity lol. It's really not anymore complicated than that

>>40958490
Ah I see, do you have any recommended reading regarding this?

>>40958033 (OP)
This is pure dualism. Read about Ahriman.

Christianity has Schrödinger's dualism, because Satan is not the same as the Satan in Judaism , he is uncontrollable, he is like Seth or Typhon or Ahriman

although Judaism(Jewish understanding of angels changed under Iranian influence) was under the influence of Zoroastrianism, as was Christianity. The Zoroastrian Magi come to celebrate the birth of Jesus

>>40958533
No, sorry. This is information I've learned over the years listening to more learned men than myself speak on the subject. The deeper inner workings of Christian theology are tied up in things like apologism and demonology these days, just as a necessity to defend the faith. Most of Christianity in practice is just the process of reconciling yourself to God. The finer details aren't particularly relevant to the average person. Father Carlos Martin is good for what you're looking for, along with Chad Ripperger.

>>40958599
>The deeper inner workings of Christian theology are tied up in things like apologism and demonology these days
I feel much the same way.
Again, thanks.

>>40958588
What would you suggest I read about Ahriman? From a quick look, I see the resemblances. Do you suggest common notions of satan are irreconcilable with the christian framework?

>>40958058
Free will does not exist.

The Bible says this.

>>40958790
Shut up you dumb Calvinist. God would not waste his time making conditional statements to people if it weren't possible for them to choose an outcome themselves.

>>40958735
>Do you suggest common notions of satan are irreconcilable with the christian framework?
Christianity never determined who this Satan was, because people were killed and burned because of him, that is, God could not defeat Satan and people was forced to create the Inquisition and kill witches and sorcerers, as well as just heretics (of the same Christian faith, but slightly different views). Besides, in Christianity there is a corrupted world, a fall from grace. This is pure gnosticism, only in Christianity people themselves are to blame and not the demiurge archon

>What would you suggest I read about Ahriman?
Just reading about him on wiki is enough.

I will only add that Zoroaster demonized the devas, Indra (Heracles) and Rudra (Apollo), but since the dragon slayer hero still had to be, the whitewashed Fereydun was invented. (nevertheless, I love mythology and delved into this topic and it seems that Heracles is a fallen angel)

Zoroaster also demonized the devas (related to Dyaus - Zeus - Deuz)
Deva + EL = Devil

Dia (distortion Deva) + Bol (Bel / Baal) = Diabol (os)
with this, a play on words arose in Slavic languages, for example Veles / Volos / Velnyas (haired wolf snake god), only without the prefix de. Zoroastrians began to depict devas as hairy and demonic, in Japanese there is the same play on words, kami is a deity, okami is a wolf, and kami is also associated with hair.

Hercules is also Nergal(Melqart) (he has too many names, like Apollo, whose name is deciphered as Aplu Enlil(Aplu/Apaliunas/Abaddon) , son of Enlil, and among the Etruscans he sat underground and was called Suri/Soranus) is depicted from above, one-eyed (like Odin, like Dajjall) and for some reason sticking out snakes from his shoulders, like Zahhak, although his analogue Fereydun kills Zahhak, but Fereydun himself turned into a dragon in one myth (in old paintings into a Chinese dragon) and... do not forget, Ahuramazda is the twin of Ahriman (hehehe)

>>40959116
all myths is connected

https://www.academia.edu/105697381/Nergal_the_god_of_death_Emerges_from_the_Abyss_and_the_Mistaken_Correlation_to_Remphan_and_the_Star_of_David

https://www.academia.edu/50834604/Ninurta_Nimrod_Son_of_Enlil_Satan_the_First_Post_Flood_Hybrid

>>40958033 (OP)
In islam he is a genie which is more logical.

>>40959166
>Islam
>Logical

>>40958033 (OP)
Life is a theatrical production and God has favorites, get over it

>>40958033 (OP)
Satan is blamed because he lost the battle. We see this exact same thing in this world. Winners write the history books which the new generations will consume. So of course if God won then Satan will be seen as the less inferior and the one who did wrong. But think about it. Who was the one with pride and envy? Was it Satan or God? Because Satan wanted to ascend above God. Why is this wrong? Why can't we aspire to be greater than God? And why God doesn't like when someone tries to be above Him? Why God wants to be the most high all the time? It is very telling how God got mad once Satan wanted to ascend above Him. This did upset God big time. This is no small thing. Satan wanted freedom. Who does not want freedom? Satan did not want to serve God anymore. Satan wanted to have his own house so to speak. He wanted a better house than God's Heaven. God did not like that. And God did send him to the ground, the Earth. God is the one with the most pride. It is even said in the bible. That God keeps His word for His own sake. Not our sake, but His own sake. God is not dumb, dude. God doesn't want to lose power. Do you know how addictive power is? And don't give me Jesus. Jesus made himself flesh. Yeah, right. But God was directing Jesus, guiding him. Jesus was never alone. Jesus talked to God and God answered. It's not like our experience where God ignores us.

>>40958033 (OP)
Satan isn't evil, God is. Satan is the one who reveals the evil nature of God.

>>40960209
Satan never wanted to rise above God. He simply wanted God to stop being so high and mighty.

>>40958352
Yes. Pray to the one who built the cage. He sure will tell you the truth.

>>40958033 (OP)
>But I dont understand why God would condemn him to such a miserable existence
Because he is genuinely evil being, he could prevented all this shit but chooses not to

>>40960228
I'm basing my argument in the bible. In the bible, it says Satan wanted to raise himself above God. Satan did not even wanted to be equal, he wanted to ascend higher. Bad ass. Too bad for him that God made all the creatures less powerful than Him exactly in order to not be overthrow. This is a thing which makes me dispise God a little bit. The fact that we are powerless and at His mercy. I hate this fact.

>>40960260
I wanna check that out, can you give me the passage number?

>>40960265
The Satan bit you find in Isaiah. "I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God".

About the other bit just google it. More than one time the bibles makes it pretty clear how every creature is at God's mercy. God can kill us at any time he so desired? Have you ever watched the matrix? God can pull the plug and you just die. This is an example of how God limited us. The fact that we can't fight against God is mentioned more than one time in the bible. God likes to brag that He is God and we are not.

>>40960372
I guess you're referring to the fall of Lucifer? Nowhere in the passage does it say Satan wanted to usurp God, but to be equal to God.

Why is it that every time Christians talk of Satan they twist the narrative into him being the bad guy? I can't fucking stand the illiteracy on display.

why are you taking the judeobiblical narrative on face value lmao

does it make sense an omnipotent omniscient god created his own enemy?

what kind of bad guy has to ask permission from the jewgod to do anything? (revealed in job)

this is all largely bullshit to keep you from realizing they're all archons

>>40960638
Satan explicitly requests to torture Job and his name translates directly to
>The Accuser
He has been conceived of as the enemy of humanity for as long as we could put a name to the concept. He is obviously the villain. He is 100% the bad guy of the Bible. He goes out of his way to harass Christ during his time in the wilderness and is the one who tempts Judas into betraying him. When an evil man is described in scripture, he is
>Of your father, the devil.
You do not know more about this than even the least theologically educated non denominational Midwestern mom who goes to a megachurch. That is how little you understand what you're talking about. You know less about this than the least informed Christian.

>>40960678
How's your kabbalah coming along Dr. P

>>40960691
>"SATAN IS BASED!"
>The religion he comes from presents him as unambiguously evil
>"Erhm, Jew much?"
Shut up you stupid faggot

>>40960678
Another one of you illiterate fucks come crawling out of the woodwork. Satan did not "request" god for permission to torture Job. Satan pointed out that the dude God was glazing was pious because God treated him so well, and God said "aight bet, go and fuck him up and see how wrong you are"

Source:
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

>>40960678
>>40960705
So now I ask you, why do you need to twist the narrative on Satan's character? Why can't you just read the fucking bible and see for yourself how much your fellow brothers in Christ lie about him?

Forget the devil; man is the father of lies.

>>40960705
Twisting scripture to lie. Satan went there to challenge God about Job's faith. He didn't just go there to talk to him. You are a snake.

>>40960710
You think he's a good guy but are even admitting that he ruined someone's life to try and prove a point to God

>>40960715
GOD BROUGHT JOB'S PIOUSNESS UP FIRST YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING IDIOT

>>40960724
Yeah because Satan showed up to challenge him lol. Are we done here?

>>40960638
Because in Revelations the so called prophet said Satan = The serpent in the darden of Eden = The Dragon. That's why.

>>40960733
As if God isn't a piece of shit needing to be challenged.

>>40960740
You can challenge him if you want but you'll also just lose. Go ahead it's fine, he really doesn't mind. Might even be good for you.

>>40960710
>man is the father of lies.
BS. Jesus clearly stated that the evil one is the father of lies. The evil being Satan or The Devil or The Serpent or The Dragon. It's simple. I'm not saying this is the truth. I'm saying what the bible says.

>>40960740
Exactly.

>>40960744
DOn't mind this guy. He is a good little slave. He wants God's favour so he kiss His arse.

>>40960751
Snarling, clawing at the air, smoke billowing out of your nostrils

>>40960745
Jesus was a man. Men lie. Ergo, Jesus lied.

>>40960936
Jesus never sinned a single time in his entire life. He was perfect.

>>40960936
Jesus is especial because they claim that he had a divine essense which we don't have because he was born of a virgin birth through the miraculous power of the holy ghost or holy spirit. So Jesus is like a especial case because he was human, but he had full knowledge about his divine origin and who his daddy was and stuff. To me, I think it's kind nice that even God himself, in the form of Jesus, if the bible is true, had to clean his arse and shit and piss and eat. But at the same time I lost a lot of reference for Jesus when I understood who he was. It's pure nepotism. lol