Thread 40983886

If everyone stopped practicing their religions, the spirit they call "God" would starve and die.

>>40983886 (OP)
You realize for this to happen, we're also talking all sciences and humanities right?
We're also talking about locking everyone in a sensory deprivation chamber.
And even then, the fact that you can think is a problem in this scenario.

>>40983907
The war god YHWH from the Bible has nothing to do with the sciences.

>>40983886 (OP)
>our lives and the world are ours and ours alone
what the fuck is this actually supposed to mean?

Humanism is embarrassing.

Consider religions like the mob. It's not really about faith. It's about money and power. This is why religions don't pay taxes. They're effectively rogue nations.

>>40983922
Not needing to spend your entire life asking for forgiveness and to be healed from the sin of being born (original sin)

>>40983928
explain how the expression i posted is supposed to translate to what you just said

>>40983937
If you believe in Christianity or any of the big three religions, your life is not your own. It's God's.

>>40983916
Nigga you retarded, and you have no idea the names you invoke.
God isn't YHWH, God is the whole thing.
You're inside God. You are a part of God.
Even science says you're made in the image of God(the universe)

>>40983952
How is the world "yours alone"? God cant have ownership over you, but you can have ownership over the world?

>>40983967
I'm talking about YHWH specifically here. I know he isn't God. But billions of people believe he is.

>>40983971
>How is the world "yours alone"?
It says "ours alone", not "yours". And it means that we as collective humanity are shaping the world and fully responsible for our success or failure, not god.

>>40983988
again, if a God exists, why would humans have ownership over the world and not God

>>40983993
Because a personal god does not exist.

>>40984002
God is definitionally personal.

>>40984002
How could you possibly know whether or not a personal God exists

>>40984020
Care to elaborate on that? And how do you get from a vague "God" to specifically the God of the Bible?

>>40984023
How could you possibly know that one does exist? You can't say lack of concrete proof there isn't one is proof of one existing. I hate to use this example but there's no proof there isn't a teapot in orbit around the sun right now either.

>>40983993
Firstly, Who says we have "ownership" and what kind of ownership do we have of the Earth?
Secondly, God(reality) did, because of the very fact that we exist here. That doesnt mean that the influence stops there either.

Yea so then the people in power can go the whole 9 yards and turn this earth into a full fledged slave farm. Oh yea, OP is still an edgy teenager and doesn't understand a thing happening here on earth.

>>40984047
>implying "God" isn't running a slave farm
You're so innocent and naive.

>>40984038
I said "whether or not".
Reading comprehension.
I said how can you know either way. I'm not claiming anything. You stated objectively that one does not exist and I am asking how you could know either way.

>>40984041
the quote in question is "our lives and the world is ours and ours alone".
The world is ours. Ownership.
Im questioning humanism, not God, follow the argument.

>>40984023
Short answer, I wrote out a math proof of it.
Long answer, God is the sum total abstract structure we call reality, and because we exist as microcosmic instantiations of this larger structure the larger structure possesses infinite entanglement with us and can communicate with us in any way imaginable.
The structure itself is also conscious, just like we are, and you can basically think of us like finite termina for an infinite terminus.
You likely talk to God all day long even if you're a militant Atheist and don't even realize it, because whatever you believe in: Math, Physics, Biology, Logic, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc... The only reason you can believe in it at all is because its part of the structure that constitutes God.

>>40984056
>You stated objectively that one does not exist
I have no reason to believe one exists, therefore I don't believe there is one until I'm shown or discover proof otherwise. I'm certainly not going to attribute ownership of the world to something that probably doesn't exist.

>>40984077
So your definition of God is personal.
But if God is truly a unique entity, and personal, then you do not have the capacity to define it. A personal God is fundamentally irrational because it precedes human senses and intellect. If such a God exists, there are things about it that are necessarily incomprehensible by humans, and thus undefinable.

>>40984096
Ok, so you are refining you statement to "Because I believe a personal god does not exist"?

So the dogmatic statement that the "our lives and the world are ours and ours alone" is contingent on your belief in the nonexistence of God being true.

If you begin from the assumption that God DOES exist, is the statement "our lives and the world are ours and ours alone" still true?

>>40984137
>If you begin from the assumption that God DOES exist
Why should anyone do that? Should we also begin from the assumption that other entities like Zeus or Hadad literally exist?

>>40984124
>Christian "ethics"
Yeah like proselytizing to foreign peoples with the explicit threat that you will kill them if they don't convert to your religion and abandon their own traditions.

>>40984151
Zeus or Hadad may be God, some people certainly thought so.
We've already established that whether or not God exists is unproveable, so either scenario is equally likely. In order to have a full inquiry you must consider all possibilities. Otherwise you are just religious and making dogmatic statements. Your belief is the inly thing that truly informs your conclusions.

So I ask again, in the scenario that God exists, is the original statement still true.

>>40983886 (OP)
The world depends on God, not the other way around.

>>40984172
>in the scenario that God exists, is the original statement still true.
Yes. I think it's harmful and self denigrating to hand over self ownership to another being you believe is "higher" than you. I guess that's prideful and satanic of me.

>>40984205
Who said anything about satan? Why are you introducing things into this argument that no one has brought up?

So you don't want to hand over self ownership. Got it.
What about "the world". The statement says that the world is ours. Why should we have ownership over it, and why, if a God exists, would we have ownership and not God

>>40983886 (OP)
>Departure from tradition
So like... humanism is liberalism under a different name. So basically fuck God and turn to satanism.

>>40984221
>What about "the world". The statement says that the world is ours
Since there is no evidence of a personal god acting upon the world, and we humans hold the tools to alter it for good or evil, we effectively own it.

>>40984233
Liberalism is why you are free to believe what you want and say openly what you want.

>>40984235
So all humans own themselves, and the world is owned by whoever acts on it?

>>40984172
>We've already established that whether or not God exists is unproveable
They could prove it if they wanted to couldn't they. Sometimes they do in private.

>>40984266
Yes, that's true, but not relevant to the current argument.

>>40984233
Humanism is not Liberalism. Humanists do not inherently care about liberty at all

for an example check the EU or FN

>>40984266
>Yes, that's true, but not relevant to the current argument.
Then so is the statement that the existence is unprovable.

>>40984247
Yes, essentially. What reason is there to conclude that an invisible god who may or may not even exist as people imagine it "owns the world"? If there is a creator, which I am not fully discounting, what makes you think "he" even cares about us or thinks about us at all?

>>40984284
It's liberalism for the new generations. The old name is too contaminated.

>>40983967
too bad space is fake and gay. its all symbolic. fibonacci spiral in all things. its all about scale. the chakras and energy in us is mirrored in the stars. thats why astrology has effects whether you believe it or not. same amount of planets as we have chakras hmm. sun and moon represent sleep and wakefulness. if you are up at night you are up to no good, sleeping during the day you are wasting your life. i can do this with everything. sure is it god? i guess but whose version. get a group of people and have them seperatly describe what god is. every answer will be different. god is creativity, the power to create and destroy. its consciousness. not a dude in the sky. i feel its my duty to drop "schizo" wisdom on you faggots. we create our own reality because its all perceptions and you will see things how you were programmed. however if you get creative you get to be god. hello.

>>40984286
Do babies have self ownership, even though they would quickly die if not cared for?
Do dolphins, gorillas, or dogs?

If they have self ownership, do they have ownership of the world? Are they not part of "the world"?

Are things that have self ownership separate from "the world"?
If not, do the things that have ownership over "the world" also have ownership over each other?

>>40984300
>too bad space is fake and gay
This cope again. It's very revealing that in order to keep their beliefs making sense believers have to openly reject science and reason as fake.

>>40984308
>Do babies have self ownership, even though they would quickly die if not cared for?
Yes
>Do dolphins, gorillas, or dogs?
Yes. All living beings inherently have some dignity.

>If they have self ownership, do they have ownership of the world? Are they not part of "the world"?
Human beings, humanity as a collective, is the most powerful force on the planet that can change it for good or evil. We owe it to everyone else to rule the world justly.

>>40984285
Ok, I will modify it to "unproveable by humans". But the point of this argument is to demonstrate that the logic of humanism is faulty, which can be done without reference to God's knowledge.

>>40984316
Ok, so might makes right?
Do human beings own each other?

>>40984323
>Do human beings own each other?
No, that's antithetical to humanism and our dignity.

>>40984329
But its not antithetical to the dignity of other organisms? Some humans function mentally below dolphins.

>>40984329
Working together = code word for communism.

>>40983886 (OP)
humanism is gay and lame and is just an excuse to bring sin into the world. it's an expected reaction to how embarrassing modern evangelical christianity is (which is why most young converts became catholic or orthodox) but that does not mean it's good.

>>40984296
no humanism in general could be said to be centre-left while liberalism is solidly in the right wing.

>>40984340
It's just communism rebranded.

>>40984332
Dolphins don't have a globe spanning civilization with the power to destroy the world for everyone if not ruled properly. It's not "might makes right", it's the responsibility that comes with power. Whether or not humans should rule the world is not relevant to the discussion now. We do (at least currently, until something more powerful usurps us), so we had better be just rulers and commit to doing no harm.

>>40984339
>>40984348
You could say that. Unfortunately you're brainwashed by reactionary conservatism and believe anything even vaguely communist/socialist is automatically evil and has no philosophical legitimacy,

>>40984340
"Sin" is entirely decided by the time and place you live in and is a shifting concept that doesn't really exist. The Israelites executed people by stoning for the heinous crime of picking up firewood on a Saturday. I'm assuming you don't think we should be doing that today?

>>40984345
No these nuances are all just bait to get you into it. The final face is atheistic communism.

>>40984357
>>>/pol/

>>40984352
So mentally handicapped humans, who are less intelligent than dolphins, have more dignity and responsibility than dolphins, because other humans are more intelligent and powerful than dolphins and thus all of humanity has a "responsibility"?

>>40984352
>You could say that. Unfortunately you're brainwashed by reactionary conservatism and believe anything even vaguely communist/socialist is automatically evil and has no philosophical legitimacy,
Sorry mate but I'm not stupid. Back in the 1960s your liberal bullshit started, and 65 years later you gradually ruined everything by destroying tradition.

There's nothing to argue about. Your bullshit Democrat party is crumbling and now you have to change your name to humanists.

I would rather live in an atheist society than a fundamentalist Christian society
>inb4 you post pictures of trannies and pride parades
Doesn't change my belief

>>40984362
>have more dignity
No? Why are you making this a contest? I'm talking about the responsibility of human civilization and governance broadly. Mentally handicapped humans, and humans in general, don't have more or less dignity than animals. Human civilization is just currently the force with most control acting on the world. I don't think we should be killing animals, fyi

>>40984374
Some traditions deserve to be destroyed.

>>40984360
>Posts political thread on /x/
>You're not allowed to counter with politics!

>>40984377
>You're not allowed to counter with politics!
That's not what I said. Your incredibly simplistic view of the world would just be more at home on /pol/ where everyone agrees with you and you can jerk off endlessly about how based and trad you are.

>>40984379
Shutup fedora.

>>40984382
See what I mean?

>>40984376
You said that humans dont have ownership over humans because it is antithetical to our dignity.

You also said that humans have ownership over "the world" and that this ownership is not antithetical to the dignity of other organisms, like dolphins.

So dignity is universal, but ownership is a responsibility that arises from power and intelligence?
So humans should be able to have ownership over other humans if they are not intelligent or powerful enough to take care of themselves?

>>40984384
I said shutup fefora. Atheists are so annoying omg.

>>40984357
I know this might come as a suprise to you but even the people in power have disagreements over how things should be

>>40984393
You talk like an annoying gay pseudo-intellectual.

>>40984385
>but ownership is a responsibility that arises from power and intelligence?
Human civilization "owns" the world in the same way a government or business entity owns a territory or property and is responsible for it's success (or failure)

>So humans should be able to have ownership over other humans if they are not intelligent or powerful enough to take care of themselves?

If you had a child and they were still in their infant stage, totally dependent on you for life, would you describe it as you "owning" them?

>>40984394
NTA but you guys always fall back on ad hominem. Your arguments don't have any teeth so all you can do is insult to feel superior

>>40984398
>ad hominem
I knew this word was coming. You guys are made in vats from some clone factory, one fedora is the exact copy of the other.

Get the last word in asshole.

>>40984409
>I knew this word was coming.
That's literally what you did. Instead of picking apart his argument in any way you just insulted his character by saying he sounded like a gay pseudo-intellectual

>>40984398
The way you are describing ownership of the world is exactly the same as being a parent works.
Parents are responsible for the life of a child, just like someone who owns a company is responsible for the life of a company.
The way you are explaining things there is no difference between "ownership" and "responsibility", and, according to your train of logic, ownership arises from the fact that we have control over something.

The fact is that humans have varying degrees of intelligence and capability and rely on each other. "Self ownership" is a bullshit concept, AND, by claiming we "own the world" you are just making yourself God over something because you are more intelligent and powerful.

My conclsion from this inquiry is that Humanism is a religion based on the BELIEF that there is no God and, in the absence of God, humans are god. Humans have responsibility over that which they claim by right of intelligence and power. Thus the most powerful human is the highest god.

Fuck humanism.

>>40984415
No shit that's what I did you oblivious fuck. Why do you think the fedora insult gets used? Because it sums up everything since atheists are cartoons.

>>40984428
>"Self ownership" is a bullshit concept
You keep using the example of retarded people. They're literally incapable of surviving on their own, they need help to survive, that doesn't mean the people helping them "own" them. You want it to sound like chattel slavery.

>>40984428
It makes more sense to worship and enshrine Humanity even with its flaws and strive for good than it does to appeal to the authority of an invisible, impersonal, uncaring god.

>>40984436
People only use ad hominem when they can't actually defeat their opponents argument.

>>40983886 (OP)
>le hyoomanist maymay
>Nigger forgets we already had a faggot named Robespierre push this cringe, fucked all of France's 2000 years of hostory in less than 2 years
>"b-b-but it'll work this time!"

SMALL-SOULED BUGTHREAD. Go fight
your employer, stop consooming mindlessly, cultivate your soul.

But that's too much work for the small-souled bugman, no, the bug NEEDS to bring other's to their base level, he has to have a HIVE to flock to, as in a personal level, the bugman is just an empty and frustrated amalgalm of contradictory ideals on constant battle with each other, exerting pressure on his weakening outer shell as the innards that comprise his actual personality are compressed to the point of bursting. The Bug regards his origin not as a layered human sucession that got him to where his at and all that implies, no, the bug REJECTS his origin as toxic and incompatible with the false perception instilled to him in the public indoctrination centers, and in turn, becomes the perfect COONSOOMER, as per design. He keeps the systems and everything he believes he's fighting against in -perfect working order-.

https://hackernoon.com/on-the-infestation-of-small-souled-bugmen-6561ae922e07

>>40984454
Robespierre was based however.

>>40984459
So based he threw a party for himself and all of France mocked him, hahahah. He HATED atheists btw, prolly the ONE based thing he held.

>>40984440
The concept of ownership is so fucking confused in your religion that it escapes any sort of understanding.

We have "self" ownership because we have some sort of magical human dignity
We have "world" ownership because we are intelligent and powerful and thus responsible for the world
Other organisms have dignity but not self ownership because humans own the world
Humans who are not intelligent or powerful still have world ownership because (???)

>>40984450
But this is exactly what a fedora would say. You're like one of those toys where you pull the cord in the back and it says pre-programmed audio.

>>40984446
>my personal understanding of god is evil >:(
>but god doesnt exist anyway!
>sure this is just my belief system, but other religions cant prove themselves!
As I said in my first post, humanism is embarrassing

>>40984462
>Other organisms have dignity but not self ownership
No retard, they do have self ownership. I keep telling you that we don't "own" other people or animals. We have responsibility for them automatically because human power and institution makes or breaks the world's success. You're literally just not listening to what I'm saying.

>>40984450
or when they used their arguments one million times already but there are still retards like you who were born yesterday and most people only have so much patience for idiots. People don't owe you explanations or education you annoying faggot redditor

>>40984495
Arguing with you is useless because you refuse to critically examine your own beliefs no matter what. You are the shining example of dogma over reason.

>>40983967
God has so many anuses, that suck everything in

>>40984488
So when you say "our lives and the world are ours", that means the world is "ours", we own it, but we don't own humans or animals?
Humans and animals are not part of the world?

>>40984500
I just got here, nigger. I'm none of the anons above, I just cringed at your 'hurr durr ad hominem'. If you get insulted it doesn't mean you win. It means you're annoying. This isn't debate club

>>40984511
>Humans and animals are not part of the world?
We don't "own" mentally disabled people and animals, we're responsible for them in the same way a parent is responsible for their children. Unless you're one of those freaks who actually does consider his children his property until they grow up. We "own the world" in the sense that we are not accountable to any god and the world is what we make it into.

>>40984521
>If you get insulted it doesn't mean you win
It does if insulting someone is all you can do instead of actually picking apart their argument and proving yours right

>>40984471
Isn't the aspiration to perfection what drives Man to Be? What is God if not THAT perfection we hold ourselves standardized against, as a race? If your idea of God is already flawed and broken, don't expect any silly philosophy and set of systems can replace a fractured load-bearing beam in your spirit, because before any ideology and leader, what almost every human falls back into is with their apriori connection with the Divine mind to guide them, first and often foremost.

Not having that connection isn't enlightenment, it's the actual opposite from it.

>>40984523
So, in the sentence "our lives and the world are ours", "ours" means two different things?
"Our lives are ours" means we have self ownership?
"The world are (is) ours" means "we are not accountable to any god and the world is what we make it into"?

>>40984540
My bad, Anon, I meant it for >>40984446

>>40984529
As I said, you are not owed anything here. You act like a spoiled child. Insulting you is just the first thing that comes to mind because of how entitled you act. Learn to be less of a faggot redditor and people might talk to you more earnestly

>>40984540
>Isn't the aspiration to perfection what drives Man to Be?
No. Humans 'be' for a lot of reasons and a lot of us arent deluded enough to believe humans can achieve perfection.

I for one choose to keep living because I think the experience of love between humans is enough to live for. I don't claim to or want to be involved in any pursuit of "perfection" because its a delusion.

>>40984554
>As I said, you are not owed anything here.
I know that. I'm just pointing out that it says a lot more about you and your cowardice than it does about me.

>>40984575
>Speaks of delusion, kek
>Holds beliefs as well
So, different set of BELIEFS to counter other beliefs.

Enlightunkment.

>>40983886 (OP)
Lol yes now is the perfect time for humanism, right before the species fragments and it becomes the new racism

>>40984599
Everyone holds beliefs, that is a universal condition of humanity. You are deluded to think otherwise. Or just retarded.

>>40984612
>Religious fag talks smack to other religious fags

Again, lack of self-awareness. Small-souled bugman.

>>40984587
>I know that
>proceeds to act entitled
>hurr durr y'all cowards don't even smoke crack
you have to be 18 to post here

>>40984630
/thread

kekku

>>40984620
I will take your lack of any argument as a concession that you lost this debate

>>40984630
You haven't even attempted to engage with anyone's arguments, you just hurl insults like a child

>>40984660
Nope, the childlike behaviour is all on your side, kiddo. You act like we're you're parents or teachers who are required to help you. We're not. We can just tell you to fuck off if you're annoying

>>40984110
Not quite.
Its more like God looks personal from one way, while looking universal from another, because God is a continuum of infinities.

>>40984769
Human words can only describe things that human can comprehend. The totality of God is beyond our comprehension. There is no need to try and describe God beyond what God reveals to us.

>>40984696
>kiddo
>you're annoying
You're still doing it.