Thread 41046207

I know he's real but he just puts me through too much grief. I'm done. I'll wait till I die and do it how Dismas did. If I don't get into heaven then oh well I guess. I want to hurt him and apparently what hurts him the most is indifference towards him. So that's what he's going to get. Happy for anyone who can make it work out but I am done.

>>41046207 (OP)
Ok whatever bro. I guess an eternity in Hell is your buisness.

>>41046213
Nah I'm planning to get my sins forgiven on my deathbed. I am certain he won't randomly kill me from like a car crash or something because he is always trying to get people into heaven. Like suicide victims mostly go to heaven too. Just because in the last few moments of their existence, God shows up and they get forgiven. So whatever. It's actually extremely low stakes and everything in the Bible is more to teach you how to not be miserable and have a successful civilization than anything legitimately urgent. If I do go to hell, that sucks. But I probably won't. So who cares

Atheist here, but I believe in a similar idea as you. Even if you believe in free will and that we're responsible for our choices I just can't understand why you wouldn't create a perfect reality that's designed to always be perfect filled with beings that are always happy, joyous, and content. Or just not create anything. That works too. Anything else is just too insane to me.

>>41046471
Decisions.

>>41046207 (OP)
You put yourself through grief and hurt by your own decision making. You created your reality.

>>41046207 (OP)
What grief? Dark night of the soul?

>>41046207 (OP)
>I know he's real but he just puts me through too much grief
As a part of God, you do it to yourself and it's nearly guaranteed that the rest of God didn't get out of its way to hurt you as you are now. You're not that important.
>I want to hurt him and apparently what hurts him the most is indifference towards him.
Christian aspect of God cares and indifference may sadden that one but only because it cares. But it's not desperate either.

True indifference wouldn't be attempting an attitude to hurt anyway. It'd be taking it up naturally, with no concern how it affects the other person. So you even lie to yourself about your own attitude.

You basically act like spoiled, edgy kid thinking world revolts around him. Screw yourself, the world will move on.
>>41046246
>Nah I'm planning to get my sins forgiven on my deathbed. I am certain he won't randomly kill me from like a car crash or something because he is always trying to get people into heaven.
1. It's retarded you think you can loophole God.
2. To have sins forgiven, you need genuine regret and will to do better and not sin. That means now. If you already preplanned not giving a shit and just going through motions later, it won't work.
3. We have free will, that is things happen. You again assume you're so important that unlike others, God will change the world around for you. No, if by free will you or others get into situation where you'll get killed, you'll get killed.
4. God already knows whether and what will happen so it will be God's way either way. You cannot deceive God or hope God will act on vain hope - God will know whether it's vain. Also, you're not important enough to occupy God's mind more than any other random person on animal anyway.

You act like a kid breaking his leg so a school teacher who gave you an F will feel bad. Your grade won't change, the teacher won't be tormented. You will be.

>>41048343
Your are very presumptuous and judgemental. Not all human suffering is a consequence of our individual choices. If I hydroplane on the road and jump the medium, then smash into an embankment, did this happen because I made an immoral decision?

>>41048458
>Aspect
Kill yourself

>>41046207 (OP)
You have to have a relationship with someone before you can leave them OP.

>>41046207 (OP)
The thread title is more interesting if you look at the phrase "left god" as a title and not something you did. Like there is a left god and a right god.
>I YHVH do all these things

>>41049574
You are nowhere near as clever as you think

>>41046207 (OP)
>I know he's real but he just puts me through too much grief.
Oh yeah? You know he's real? So you would have undeniable proof to go with that claim, right?

>>41046213
Infinite punishment for a finite crime makes sense to you?

>>41049645
I know i know crust is kang yadda yadda yadda

>>41049750
No, you don't know. You're an arrogant imbecile. You don't know anything at all, but you think you know everything. If you knew anything, you wouldn't be here.

>>41049734
Sure I do. He's answered my prayers before in a way that is explicit and undeniable. Never the ones that I would really want and would be personally helpful, though. He's like a reverse genie. If you ask for something for yourself to improve your life, he either won't give it to you or give you a worse version of what you asked for. If you ask for something that would help someone else, then he's more willing. Most people pray for retarded bullshit that he doesn't care about because humans are disposable to him.
>Waaaaaaah my kid has cancer waaaaaah
Yeah God probably gave him cancer and wants him to either thug it out or die. His ways aren't our ways
>Infinite punishment for finite crimes
Yeah we already do that in the secular world it's called a life sentence

>>41049766
I do know. You have no idea what my life history is. But you probably think anyone who leaves christianity was "never a real christian". YOU are an arrogant asshole

>>41049858
I'm the guy who made the thread you fucking idiot. Read the op post again, slowly, then your own, and understand how presumptuous you are.

>>41048311
Umm, okay?

>>41049734
>infinite punishment for a finite crime
People don't get sent to hell for sins, they get sent there for rejecting the person who forgives them. Atheists love le maths, they'd love to be able to sum up a godless universe on a zero sum equation you can fit on the back of a napkin to sound incredibly smart. But if you tell them that Jesus is the true zero sum for their sins they freak out and mock you. All sins = Forgiven in Jesus. Reject Jesus and you aren't forgiven. You insult and mock the person who invites us to be with God and forgives us and then fucking cry about it when you get sent to hell and start calling God unfair.

Jesus = eternal heaven

Atheists reject Jesus. OK, fine.
Did you hear of the bible?
Did you read it?
Did you see online content talking about Jesus?
Did you watch it?
Did you ever walk past a church?
Did you ever ask anyone about it?
Did you ever wonder why Christianity spread like it did?

No? OK, bye.

>>41050900
I am a theist who's rejecting God because he made my life too difficult and I can't cope lol

Today was also a rough day for me, I was angry at God and distant. I hope you feel better later and can be close with God again.

>>41051044
>>41051456

There is nothing worse than christcucks. I start to hate them more than kikes, but then again, they are just another flavor

>>41051491
>There is nothing worse than christcucks
Yeah, my existence is worse than you having your tongue cut off and being forced to eat it.

>>41051491
What does that have to do with anything

>>41049569
Have no reason to. Feel free to kill yourself in my stead.

what kind of mental illness possesses a person to take a perfectly good image and turn it into a wojak?

>>41053426
>Larping as a wizened sage into unbridled soirage true combo
Ah

>>41046207 (OP)
Christ loves you.

>>41053497
Christ loves people who are happy, and people who are happy love him. God doesn't care much for miserable losers.

>>41046207 (OP)
I don’t know if you have kids. Maybe not. Or maybe you do. Doesn’t matter. Think about your dad, or your mom. If you had a shitty father, then sorry, that sucks. But like, do you think a real father, when his kid screams at him or says horrible stuff, do you think he gets mad because he’s offended? No. He gets sad. Not because of the insult, but because his kid is lost. He’s not thinking “you hurt me”, he’s thinking “why are you hurting yourself like this”.

You literally can’t hurt God. It’s not possible. He’s not a person with feelings like us. You can’t break Him or offend Him in any real way. What hurts, if anything, is seeing His creation destroy itself. That’s the pain.

And about doing it like Dismas, like repenting last second… dude, that’s not how it works. What matters isn’t saying “sorry” right before dying. What matters is your actions across your life. If you lived your life like shit and then just say “oops” at the end, it doesn’t mean much. Real teshuva (repentance) means action, change, intention. If you don’t live like that, the words don’t count.

Some people aren’t gonna make it. Their souls just… get erased. Maybe that’s mine. Maybe it’s yours. Maybe someone you love. Who knows. The final say is God’s, not ours. Maybe some psycho killer has a real epiphany before dying and gets forgiven. Maybe some quiet, decent guy never really wakes up inside and doesn’t make it. It’s not fair. It just is.

So what can you actually do? Try to be good. And to really be good, you gotta follow what God says is good. Not what the internet says. Not your feelings. Not the government. God’s rules are the only ones that don’t shift.

That’s it.

>>41053612
Souls don't get erased you retarded jew

>>41053624
>what is karet
Bro, you really think I’m gonna explain what karet means in full detail in a 4chan thread?

The message was general for a reason. Yes, there are souls that get completely destroyed.

When a soul reaches the level of Amalek, evil for the sake of evil, and burns through all its chances, all its gilgulim (reincarnations), with no more potential for repair, it dies for real. That’s karet.

It means “cut off”, separated from the source. Not even a reshimo (spiritual imprint) remains. No light, no future, nothing.

Most souls do get more chances. They reincarnate, return, and try again. But in the most extreme cases, there is a final annihilation. A full erasure.

It’s a deeply mysterious part of the tradition, and even the greatest sages speak about it with caution.

>>41053655
>Reincarnations
Shut the fuck up you retard. The stupid shit you people believe, I swear

>>41053669
>gives no argument

311, what is your emergency?

>>41053688
What argument is there to be bad? Stupid made up Jewish mysticism is not true and has nothing to do with God

>>41046207 (OP)
God isn't a being that's hurt or unhurt. He is beyond such notions. You can either choose to follow His command willfully or obey Him forcefully. The former is heaven, the latter is hell.

>>41053716
*to be had
Autocorrect

>>41053721
Lmao no. 4chan God is not real. God has feelings that you can hurt. Israel does it constantly in the Bible. We have the same emotions he does, which should make sense to you considering we're made in his image.

>>41053716

Jewish mysticism isn’t some made-up nonsense. It’s the same core as Christian mysticism or Islamic Sufism or even parts of Greek philosophy. Different words, same structure.

If you’re a Christian and you truly believe Christ died for your sins, that’s the same internal process Judaism calls emunah. It’s faith. It’s the soul trying to connect beyond logic and ego.

So yeah, it’s not that different. You’re doing the same thing, just with different tools. Don’t let surface-level differences fool you.

>>41053727
The Bible gives God human traits so people can understand Him. It’s not because He actually has a body or feels like we do. That’s called anthropomorphism. Saying God gets hurt like a human is reading the text like a child.

>>41053727
>Believing in Jewish propaganda
Lol. Lmao even. Yahweh was a Jewish storm deity that they attempted to psyop from El.

>>41053746
>“Yahweh was a storm god”
classic Reddit-tier take.

Sure, ancient texts use names like El or Yah.
So what? That’s how language works.
Words evolve. Concepts evolve. Doesn’t mean the actual idea of God stayed stuck in bronze age weather metaphors.

The Jewish idea of God went way past that. Abraham already had a radically different understanding. Later, with the prophets and especially the sages, it got refined even more. We’re not talking about some sky daddy.

We’re talking about Ein Sof. the Infinite.
No form, no emotions, no time, no space. Not a guy. Not even a being. Pure essence beyond anything the human mind can grasp.

The fact that the name Yahweh might come from a regional term doesn’t mean anything. God isn’t trapped by whatever word you stick on Him. That’s why Jews say HaShem “The Name”. Because whatever you say, you’re already missing it.

If you think you’ve got God figured out, you’re already wrong.

>>41053728
No it isn't and Christian mysticism is also nonsense. All just made up Satanic nonsense. Kabbala is demonic. Sufism also, but Islam in general is demonic. It's fake. These are not things Christ would have believed or preached. These are things the descendants of stubborn pharisees and their auxiliaries invented for themselves over the course of a few centuries after they rejected the true God on the cross. Malkuth, Keter, w/e, the entire Sefirat is just made up nonsense. These idiots think you can have sex with a female aspect of God called the Shekhinah, even though that's literally just the holy spirit. Do no pay any mind to the modern Jew. They worship only Satan and themselves.
>>41053735
I didn't say he had a body (but he technically does, in the form of Christ.) He does have feelings and he is anthropomorphic to a certain extent. Again, we are made in his image.

>>41053763
>The Jewish idea of God went way past that.
Are you the perennialist or the butthurt satanist? If you're the perennialist I don't care because I don't believe the Bible as a historical account but we have the same understanding of what God is which matters infinitesimally more. I never thought 4chan would be the first time meeting a Kabbalist.

>>41053772
Christianity is so naturally absurd and devoid from the rest of human history that it's miserable that the rest of the world ended up emulating it.

>>41053772
Yeah, most of what people call “Kabbalah” is absolute garbage. All the Hollywood crap, red strings, sex rituals, fake mystics with shaved heads and Instagram accounts. That has nothing to do with Kabbalah.

Kabbalah is just studying Torah and following mitzvot. That’s it. No magic. No power levels. No weird sex cult. It’s a system of thought that helps understand how God interacts with the world, and how to align yourself with that. Nothing more.

And no, you don’t have sex with the Shekhinah. That’s a retarded take. Shekhinah is just the term for God’s presence in the world. It’s called feminine because it receives.
That’s all. It’s not a literal woman, it’s not a divine girlfriend, it’s not some weird spiritual porn.

As for God having a body through Christ.
Christ doesn’t become God. What happens is that he reaches a state of devekut, total union with the divine will. His personal, subjective soul is completely nullified. There’s no ego left. Only God’s will working through him.
That’s not unique to Jesus either. The prophets experienced it. Probably a lot of unknown mystics did too. The difference with Christ is that through him, according to Christian belief, God forgave all sin.
He became the final sacrifice.

And if someone truly believes in that, they’re saved. That’s the idea. Eternal life begins right now, in that connection. It’s not about worshiping a man. It’s about recognizing what was revealed through him.

>>41053802
>PLEASE get angry and get into an argument with me!
(You)

>>41053790
>Are you the perennialist or the butthurt satanist? If you're the perennialist I don't care because I don't believe the Bible as a historical account but we have the same understanding of what God is which matters infinitesimally more. I never thought 4chan would be the first time meeting a Kabbalist.

Yeah, you could say I’m a perennialist. God is One.
The historical or literal stuff doesn’t really matter that much, what matters is the transcendent reality behind it all. That’s where the real weight is.

So if you’re not into Judaism specifically, that’s fine. You might get more out of reading people like Guénon or Schuon, maybe even Burckhardt. You probably already know them.

Personally, I find a lot of answers in Hebrew mysticism. I like its structure, its mythology, the language, the metaphysics, and the mitzvot system.
But really, you can follow whatever path speaks to you. Just pick the one that fits your soul, you know?

>>41053815
Kabbala has nothing to do with anything, again, it's just something that Jews made up a few centuries after Christ's death on the cross. Christ would have never preached it and no king of Israel ever practiced it. It's nonsense.
>And no, you don’t have sex with the Shekhinah.
You're right, you can't because God has no feminine aspect. And also because you can't have sex with God, but yes they have a ritual where they pray while humping the air pretending they're fucking God. I have literally seen them do this so don't bother.
>Christ doesn’t become God.
Christ has always been God, there is never any becoming. He's been God for all of eternity, prior to his incarnation on earth and after the fact. They are the same being.

>>41053802
>Christianity is so naturally absurd and devoid from the rest of human history that it's miserable that the rest of the world ended up emulating it.

Blame Paul of Tarsus. He’s the one who twisted everything. If you’re gonna follow anything in Christianity, just stick to John. The rest is mostly damage control and Roman marketing.

>>41053834
>But really, you can follow whatever path speaks to you. Just pick the one that fits your soul, you know?
Deeply Satanic

>>41053820
I don't really care. I think modern day Christianity is taking some improvements especially Catholicism and Vatican II. Christian "trads" are basically ISIS though but without any balls.
>>41053834
I share the same view. Ultimately certain rituals and what-not exist so we can understand God the way that's suitable for certain groups depending on multiple circumstances. It may take longer time for some than others but ultimately once a little bit of knowledge and desire to achieve unity is obtained it will be inevitable.

>>41053847
Kabbalah means “receiving”. It’s not some post-Jesus invention. It’s been there from the beginning. It’s just the inner side of Torah, the part that deals with how the soul connects to God.

Following the Gospels with a pure heart, following Sufism, or whatever path you take to draw closer to God and do good, that’s Kabbalah too. The core is the same. It’s the desire to come closer to the divine.
No need to mystify it more than that.

Now about this nonsense of humping the air pretending to have sex with God, I don’t know what you saw, but that’s not Kabbalah. Maybe you’re thinking of Golden Dawn, or Israel Regardie, Eliphas Levi, or some other European ritual magic using Jewish words and symbols. That’s not Jewish mysticism, that’s Western occult theater.

You believe Christ has always been God. That’s your belief and that’s fine. But don’t expect Jews or Kabbalists to agree with that. In our view, God doesn’t become human, doesn’t incarnate. Everything exists within God, but God is beyond everything. Whole different framework.

In a metaphysical sense, yes, he is God, but so is everything, in a way. Everything exists within God. So sure, Christ can be seen as an expression of the divine, a special one, just like all creation reflects aspects of the divine.

Could it be that through Christ, humanity was truly redeemed? Could be. Could it be that his sacrifice had a unique role in cleansing the sins of the world? It’s possible. The point isn’t to reject it out of pride. The point is to seek truth.

>>41053865
>Dumbass leftists pothead thinks God is undifferentiated LCL unity slop
Wow

>>41053878
>41053853▶
my mistake

>>41053883
you know you want it

>>41053847
I trust the Gospel of Thomas as authentic.

>>41053878
>It's been there from the beginning
But coincidentally there is no mention of it anywhere in history prior to the 12th century. In Europe.
>That’s not Jewish mysticism, that’s Western occult theater.
Well that's what all Jewish mysticism is technically. Refer to prior paragraph.
>But don’t expect Jews or Kabbalists to agree with that.
I don't expect you to, I expect you to be stubborn and wrong like the pharisees you descended from.
>The point is to seek truth.
We already have it you fool. God gave it to us freely, and what we don't know we aren't supposed to.

>>41053898
Thomas is cool

>>41053891
No I really don't. God made me an individual with an identity that is distinct from other people. He didn't make me to be a meat drone in a human hivemind.

>>41053898
>I trust this thing that was written two centuries after revelations
Literally why besides that you personally like it

>>41053908
Yeah, Kabbalah as a structured system developed in medieval Europe, mostly in places like Provence, Gerona.
So what? That doesn’t mean the inner longing to connect with God started there. It’s like saying gravity didn’t exist before Newton.

Kabbalah is just a framework to express something that’s always been there, the soul’s drive to return to its Source. The Jewish system came later, sure, but the core experience is ancient.

And bro, don’t come at me with this “descended from Pharisees” crap. I’m literally baptized in Christ. I’m not even Jewish. I just respect how their system explains deep metaphysical truths.

>>41053917
Yeah, you have individuality now, while you’re in the world, in duality. That’s part of the gift. God gave us free will and separation so we can experience life as individuals.

But when your soul returns to God, that individuality dissolves. In the Infinite, there is no separation. .

And it’s not even some kind of human hivemind. There’s no human mind. There’s no mind at all. It’s total union with God.

>>41053923
The dates are heavily dated. I trust it because it aligns with the Greek understanding of logos alongside other concepts rather than this bizarre attempt the Christian church fathers made that align more of what the masses saw Greek mythological Gods than the scholars in antiquity.

So basically yes lol.

>>41053953
*heavily debated

>>41053930
>So what?
So it's fake. It's fake for the same reason Mormonism is fake, and you know exactly what I mean by that too. It's total bullshit.
>That doesn’t mean the inner longing to connect with God started there. It’s like saying gravity didn’t exist before Newton.
No anon, you're being obtuse. You know these things are not comparable. A more accurate comparison would be to say, gravity has always existed, Newton described it, but then twelve centuries later someone invented a new gravity philosophy that assigns random entirely subjective attributes to certain aspects of the concept of gravity.
>I’m literally baptized in Christ.
Then you should know better. Judaizing is a sin.

>>41053917
This world exists so we can experience a consciousness that allows us to experience unity with God in unique ways. Otherwise we are all part of God's will whether we like it or not.

>>41053883
Ask yourself what world is preferable both from a rational perspective and from a personal understanding of whether this addresses the reason why we exist or not. You'll find out the truth then.

>>41053941
No it does not. We do not melt into God like a male anglerfish. We keep our identity and individuality, if he didn't want us to have these things we wouldn't. This is a sublimated desire for self destruction, concupiscence. Do not indulge in this suicidal fantasy.

>>41053953
>I trust it because it's not Christian
???????

>>41053988
I don't trust the gnostic tests that come later. You're coming from this from someone who is a diehard Christian rather than with any sort of objectivity.

>>41053969
Yes but that isn't the same thing as being
>One with God
God did not want to exist eternally perfect and alone, he wanted someone else to share himself with. Emphasis on share, and someone else. If we were all just God on a continuum of some kind engaged in a masturbatory exercise of self experience, then there would not be any need for there to be you or me. There wouldn't be any need for God to create anyone at all. He wants you to be YOU, and to have the opportunity to CHOOSE him. He doesn't want you to be him. If he did, there wouldn't be any you.

>>41054002
>You're coming at this as someone who is a Christian
????????????????????

>>41054006
It is impossible to be one with God for he is unlike any of His creations thus is beyond being and beyond existence in a literal sense. We will have spiritual forms and it will happen through a process of reincarnation. However w are all subservient to His will which means abolishing the self and following everything as a cohesive unit.

>>41054006
It's not much of an opportunity and it isn't much of a choice. Remember what the Matrix said? We already made our choices, we're just here to figure out why we did them. God placed us here and made some of us accumulate indifference or even hatred towards him. What for? If it's like you say and to keep separation in essence, then our hate and indifference is simply following the divine will.

>>41053968
I think there’s just a misunderstanding about what Kabbalah actually is. And I don’t blame you. Honestly, everything you’ll find online or real books about Kabbalah is garbage.
I thought Kabbalah was the same crap you’re describing right now.
But thank God I kept studying, kept digging deeper.

That’s why they say Kabbalah isn’t for beginners. Not for people under 40, not for people who don’t know Torah, not for people just passing through. Not because it’s “elite”, just it’s easy to mess up.
It’s simple when you understand it, but until then, it’s like a maze filled with mirrors.

Kabbalah is just study and prayer. That’s it.
Nothing else.
No magic tricks.
No supernatural hacks.

You can do real Kabbalah from within Christianity, from Islam, from wherever, if you’re serious. If you’re praying, if you’re studying, that’s already Kabbalah.

All the rest, all the aesthetic and mystic hype, it’s dust. It’s noise. And from the outside, it confuses way more than it reveals.

Look, if you don’t like Kabbalah, then don’t follow it. It’s just a system. That’s all. It’s not some absolute truth everyone has to accept. It’s just one way, as many, to approach the divine. You dont even need a system, but people like me does, I am an idiot.

A grandma who goes to church every Sunday with full devotion. She could be more of a Kabbalist than I’ll ever be, even with all the years I’ve spent studying. Because what actually matters is intention. That’s it. The heart behind what you do.

>>41054019
Wrong. God made the decisions, you choose how to react to them. Consciousness is reality both here and in the next so this shouldn't be something difficult to understand.

>>41053983

At the very, very, very end? Yes. In that final stage. In the World to Come, no, individuality still exists there. How long will that stage last? Who knows. Maybe hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe more. But even that seems to have an end. And then we return to Him.

But who says it’s not cyclical? Maybe we return to God, and then there’s another creation. Maybe the same, maybe different. Maybe the drop becomes one with the ocean, and then separates again.

We’re talking about things we can’t truly understand. What’s certain is that we return to God, to unity. But even that unity might contain the potential for new individuality again. Because God isn’t just some static ocean. He is infinite potential, not just water, but all the possibilities within it.

>>41054014
There is no reincarnation you fucking idiot. You realize you aren't saying anything, right? This is nearly eastern spirituality, a cycle of endless reincarnation until an unknowable and impossibly distant end point of unity with some great force which nullifies your selfhood is met. Literally no historical Jew ever believed this, especially not Christ- who, I will remind you, is literally God incarnated on the earth.
>>41054019
YOU HAVE FREE WILL YOU DUMB PSUEDO-CALVINIST. IT CAME FREE WITH YOUR SAPIENCE. IF GOD DIDN'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. WE WOULD STILL BE IN EDEN AS MINDLESS DRONES.
>>41054025
The system is fake and has nothing to do with anything. Again, literally just random bullshit that Jews made up for themselves.

Evil exists because it has a role. It’s not a bug in the system, it’s part of the design. In Kabbalah, everything comes from God, even evil. But evil is temporary. It exists to push the soul, to create pressure, to force choice and growth. Its purpose is to be rejected and eventually destroyed.

The wild part is this. Even evil does teshuvah. Even evil wants to return to the Source.
Evil isn’t God’s enemy. It’s a tool. A short-term actor in a bigger story.

The soul falls, gets covered in filth, forgets the truth, but it’s supposed to rise back up. The world is broken, and you’re here to fix it. That’s the job. That’s the whole setup.

And no, this isn’t some fake balance between good and evil. Evil isn’t the flip side of good. It’s the shadow that helps define the light. Then it gets erased.

>>41054055
I get what you’re saying, really. We’re not as far apart as you think. I’m not pushing some endless Buddhist wheel where you reincarnate forever until you become a drop in the god soup. That’s not what this is.

And yeah, you have free will. That’s the whole point. You’re not a drone, you’re not predestined. You choose.

As for the rest, yeah, tons of garbage has been made up over time. Fake mysticism, fake rabbis, fake everything. But that doesn’t mean the whole system is trash. There’s something real at the core if you know how to dig for it.

>>41054055
>Christian getting mad because his religion was designed to gatekeep him from understanding these esoteric concepts
Christ said that we are from one original source and that he was the Logos that created all things. That is not God because God is beyond intellect.

>>41054041
>At the very, very, very end? Yes.
You just keep making these assertions that are based on nothing at all. Where did you get this idea?
>But who says it’s not cyclical?
Who says it is? Again, where the fuck are you getting this shit besides your own mind?
>We’re talking about things we can’t truly understand.
I understand exactly what I'm talking about, everything I'm saying is what God has deemed fit to reveal to humanity himself. You are just saying things. Lots things that are influenced by a bunch of shit you've watched and read, none of which is Christianity or has much of anything to do with even a Jewish understanding of God.

>>41054055
What are you even on about? Mindless drones in Eden? As opposed to mindless drones on Earth? Free will and no free will are the same thing since God exists.

>>41054055
The endpoint is definable because heaven on earth is achievable and those who are perfect humans and can achieve unity with God's will without thinking. Jesus Christ was indeed one of these people who went straight to heaven.

>>41054063
I can make a long list of things you don't choose in life. Your parents, your defects, your circumstances, your likes, your dislikes, your will, your consciousness... You don't get to decide anything yourself really. Try eating something you're allergic to and will your body into not having an allergic reaction. Try spreading your arms and flying by jumping off a cliff. Try forcing someone to love you.

>>41054066
>Esoteric concepts
>It's just Calvinism and your own personal unfiltered dogshit opinions

>>41054068
You know what? I’m not even saying you’re wrong about me. Maybe I am brainwashed, who knows? maybe you know.º better.

But I’m not here to preach fairy tales. I’ve studied this stuff for decades. Not from TikTok rabbis or New Age blogs. From the sources, from the Torah, from the deep tradition. I’m not inventing anything. These ideas come from the Ari, from Ramban, from centuries of commentary and serious thought.

>>41054088
>Doesn't know the difference between single predestination and double predestination
Catholics affirm the same position. I also suggest reading any bit of Neoplatonism and into early Christian sects such as the Thomasites and Valentineans. Christians really are the most likely to behave like children in theological debates (next to Atheists) but I'll forgive you because you were told to deny the Logos that resides in your heart and believe you need to drink alcohol in-order to obtain it.

>>41054073
>Free will and no free will are the same thing since God exists.
This is such a nonsensical opinion that I have to assume it's rage bait. If God did not intend for us to have free will, we would have never been allowed to choose to defy him in the Garden. I guess your opinion is that he wanted us to, which again, is just based on nothing at all but what you personally think is true
>>41054074
Yeah but he still rules at his father's right hand. Uh oh, we now have a very prominent example of individuality being preserved in heaven. Now what
>>41054083
That's not what free will is you dumbass

>>41054091
His ego is too high for him to know better. Don't worry. The stuff you talk about is ancient and predates medieval and early modern Christianity by centuries.

>>41054083

According to tradition, there’s a book called The Wheel of Reincarnations by Chaim Vital. Don’t know if you’ll find it online, but it’s worth a read. It talks about how the soul chooses everything before coming down parents, defects, desires, traumas. Why? Because those are the exact things your soul needs to face to be corrected.

The soul comes from a specific root, symbolically called parts of the Adam Kadmon. It’s not literal, it’s a metaphor for spiritual structure. Depending on where your soul originates, you come down to fix certain traits. So yeah, your addictions, your family pain, your weaknesses, that’s your battlefield.

And even if you don’t believe any of this, even if Kabbalah or Torah is all nonsense to you, who cares? What actually matters? That you become better. That you stop hurting yourself. That you grow. That’s what counts, that’s the only thing that ever mattered.

>>41054091
Look I understand in retrospect that I'm being very hostile. I don't think you're brainwashed, it just isn't a useful system to understand God or scripture. Many bizarre ideas that no Abrahamic had ever believed in about the nature of God have spawned from it and they are all heretical in some sense. These ideas are not Christian, or even Jewish.
>>41054099
God allows things to occur and adheres them to his plan. He did not allow the city of Sodom to be built with the idea in his head that he would destroy it later on. Your description of God is antithetical to the morality outlined in the Bible, he is an abusive and manipulative tyrant.

>>41054099
The wine ritual is just a watered-down version of the Eleusinian mysteries.

And yeah, Christians often act like they invented theology, but the early sects, were dealing with ideas way deeper than most churchgoers today can stomach.

>>41054100
Do you read posts or just like to rage endlessly? Read this. >>41054014 I can only assume you were bitching about me using the term reincarnation to properly understand.

>>41054101
>>41054119
Do you think that just because something is old it is more correct? Do you know what Christ preached? None of the shit you're talking about. There were gnostic sects around at the same time, who the apostles directly rebuked.

>>41054100
The act of defying God is God-given and it is necessary for free will to be able to go against God. If you could choose to go against God, but nobody in existence ever went against God, then in actuality there would be no tangible choice. Evil is the expression of freedom. Which should be obvious, I mean like this is basic kiddie stuff. So heaven isn't meant for most of us. It never was. It's a tight little club, and that's okay because hell isn't biblical.

>>41054126
Your apostles simply used their authority to excommunicate and fight with those they disagreed with and have no logical arguments to prove they are correct. The sooner you learn this the better.

>>41054104
I did stop hurting myself in the process. I've grown cold in a strange way. I didn't throw away my heart or my feelings, but at the same time I've learned to discard everyone and everything around me that goes against my well being no matter how attached I am to them.

>>41054133
*Church fathers.
What the apostles actually said is a mystery because almost none of the Bible can be historically proven outside of very few moments that can be cross-referenced.

>>41054118
Don’t worry, this is 4chan. I don’t take it personally when people get heated, I talk like that too sometimes. It’s just how people express themselves here.
We are cool.

Honestly, Kabbalah explains things really well, for me, that is subjective.

These ideas… I don’t think they’re just Christian or just Jewish. They go beyond the label. Jews developed a system, yeah, but it’s just a framework.

It’s like saying you can only code in cobol, why not Python? Sure, they’re built for different things. cobol is closer to systems architecture, heavy structure. Python is built for fast development. But in the end, both are just languages. Just tools to interface with logic and systems.

Kabbalah gives me language to explore this stuff. That’s all. And in the end, even language fails.
God can’t be named. That’s literally what Kabbalah says , the truest thing you can say about God is what you don’t say. Just like Maimonides wrote.

>>41054120
Well yes, it is a bit infuriating that you believe reincarnation exists despite ostensibly being a "Christian" when that completely misses the point of our time on earth. If we just have infinite retries to join the Buddha in Nirvana, then no punitive measure is justified and no human life really matters. Everyone just gets recycled forever until we do it "right." Doing what God wants is not the same thing as abolishing yourself, again, your individuality is not a defect. It's an intended feature of our existence that is preserved in death.

>>41054136
we have a lot in common then

>>41054142
I'm talking about reincarnation in another realm which early Christians especially the gnostics believed in. Also when the hell did I say I was Christian lol.

>>41054142
I forgot I need to speak so literally for people so uninitiated. Extinguish of the self means the ego in-which you desire things simply to pleasure yourself. Your conscious is very much real and is used to form the world around you.

>>41054128
>Then in actuality there would be no tangible choice.
>I have never stabbed someone to death so I practically don't have the choice to stab someone to death
>>41054133
THEY WERE DIRECTLY IN SERVICE TO JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. Who the fuck are YOU? You people are so undeservedly arrogant and self assured, you somehow know more about what Christ taught and would have wanted humanity to know than his literal best friends. You hate them for yourself, that you have your own ideas of who God is and how he should operate, not for any legitimate reason. You just choose to believe shit you'd prefer to be true, and the Gospel gets in the way of that. So you throw it away.

>>41054145
>I am talking about this thing that people who were wrong but I personally like believed
I thought you were the other guy
>>41054149
God does not expect asceticism from us. He does appreciate the gesture, however.

>>41054152
Sadly due to most of Jesus's students being illiterate and speaking through word of mouth much of it didn't get recorded in books but rather through narrative traditions that he affirmed and did not create something new. I have no reason to trust your gospels as wholly authentic and I have no reason to trust your metaphysical premises since they rely on these faulty books and 0 logical premises.

>>41054164
How were they wrong? I don't care about your unprovable book I need logical premises like the stuff Jesus mentioned when it came to logos. You were raised to blindly follow authority even though Jesus says the opposite even in your own books.

>>41054152
If you have freedom, but never use it, are you free? Just keep the chains on for the rest of your life and existence... never once choosing to break them. How is that freedom?

>>41054167
>Sadly due to most of Jesus's students being illiterate
They were famous for sending correspondences back and forth to one another in the form of this thing called "letters."
>I have no reason to trust your gospels as wholly authentic
They were written by men directly in contact with Jesus Christ himself, they are first hand accounts of him and his life. They literally knew him and his teachings better than any human in history, considering they talked to him every fucking day. You are a buffoon.
>>41054174
>I don't care about your book
Then you don't care about Christ, you just have some ideas that you like and tie Christ into retroactively to give your ideas some weight.

>>41054152
plenty of channelers and some hypnotists have told the actual story of jesus and its much more coherent, the undeserved hubris of christians is insane; throwing all your eggs in one basket just assuming the entire historical account is correct. bad LARP

>>41054196
>If you have freedom, but never use it, are you free?
Yes you pretentious dumbass. Logically, of course

>>41054152
Say you need to stab someone to death, but can't bring yourself to go through with it, where is the choice?

>>41054205
>Random people told me some shit that I like and think is true
>YOU'RE actually the one who suffers from HUBRIS!
Poetry. Beautiful. A work of art. Does not get anymore perfect than this.

>>41054202
>believing
What language did Jesus and his disciples speak? Advanced Greek? You're scapegoating because you choose to believe in an absurd God that damns people eternally and creates a world so cosmically unbalanced that the only way to save yourself is to literally cannibalize God. A better and more just option appears to your senses but you reject it because that means you have to actually do something to be saved.

>>41054212
To stab them to death. Dipshit

>>41054219
I admit that it is impossible to be absolutely certain on everything and my theological framework allows for it as gnosis and salvation is a gradual process. That is not the case for you and your assertions rely on you being 100% right and us 100% wrong.

>>41054219
your worldview has terrible evidence to begin with, there are like 7+ types of different mystical experiences that corroborate reincarnation heavily. imagine thinking your bible is somehow saying different and its right? its 100% undeserved hubris on the christians part. hell makes literally no sense as a concept, gamble on the faith or else be separated from god for eternity! i am very smart btw!

>>41054228
he really is the light

>>41054207
Choosing to be a slave is not what a free person does, sorry to burst your religious dogma bubble.
>>41054225
But I alluded to your thought process being that you can't bring yourself to stab the person suggesting there is a greater force at play here than mere choice.

>>41054221
Fyi Catholics and Vatican II affirm something very close to perennialism and you don't have to leave the Christian faith to uphold it so this is 100% stubbornness and deserved punishment on your part.

>>41054221
They spoke Aramaic you dumbass
>absurd God that damns people eternally and creates a world so cosmically unbalanced that the only way to save yourself is to literally cannibalize God.
And there it is. It always comes back to the terror of hell. That's all any of this ever is, the fear of consequences for your behavior.
>A better and more just option
I think that hell is totally justified and your idea of who goes there is likely totally incorrect. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you find hell sad and unfortunate, as opposed to being horrified of it due to your behavior.
>>41054228
Yeah you are 100% wrong
>>41054229
>It always goes back to hell

>>41054230
He is the nous and God's first creation. Original sin is made up and we are all pure from the beginning just like he was.

>>41054241
typical christfag ignores the entire bulk of the message and fixates on the concept of hell he can't defend outside of divine command theory. I truly don't know where you retards get this level of confidence from

>>41054241
>They spoke Aramaic you dumbass
Bingo! Wow, and now this one might be difficult for you, but what was the first language the Bible was written in? Was it Aramaic?
>
Your religion goes against teachings that have existed for thousands of years prior and your argument is some book in-which other traditions have that are easier to prove and much more in-depth? Christians are something else lmao.

>>41054234
>"Choosing to be a slave is not what a free person does, sorry to burst your religious dogma bubble."
>But I alluded to your thought process being that you can't bring yourself to stab the person suggesting there is a greater force at play here than mere choice.
You can just choose to stab them anyway. You are capable than a lot more than you assume. The same thing that makes you force yourself to dive off of the high board is the same thing that can make you stab someone to death when you previously couldn't bring yourself to. You can just do things. Everything is within you, you just prefer certain things. That doesn't mean you can't choose others.

>>41054245
They mostly live in America and are the world's superpower. They worship Israel who worships Satan. Unrestricted ego is par for the course.

>>41054245
>ignores the entire bulk of the message and fixates on the concept of hell
I cannot believe how lacking in self awareness you are. I laughed out loud when I read this, you are truly absurd
>>41054254
Do you think that because the Bible was translated into Greek it's now full of evil lies

>>41054260
>You are all also dumbass leftists
It's crazy how consistently everything is always just one thing

>>41054243

Honestly, I think everyone here means well. I really do.
But… I wouldn’t even be on 4chan if I were stronger. I’ve quit everything else, no social media, no websites, I deleted everything. 4chan is the last thing left. I’ve been here since 2006. Please, free me from this.

But imagine the spiritual path like a sport. Some people play in local leagues, with friends, just for fun. And some are athletes. Real athletes get tested. Hard. They train, they sweat, they suffer.

Same with the soul. If you’re serious about the path, you’re going to get hit with trials. It’s part of the process. You have to get clean. The vessel has to be purified.

So, strength to all of you.
And I’ll see you at the Olympics!

>>41054264
Prove it's the disciples words when literally none of Jesus' desciples were poor and spoke Aramaic and not highly sophisticated Greek. Christians are severely weak on self-awareness.

>>41054264
I guess you have conceded both points then? again, where do you get the confidence?

>>41054268
>You have to be a leftist to support Israel.
Sorry I forgot boomers knew how to use the Internet. Sorry your children all hate you because you are extremely hateful and with room temperature IQ.

>>41054255
I desperately wish it was true that I can just do things. There was a time in my life where it felt like I was actively choosing things, but now it feels like a floaty dream. Eating magic shrooms, losing my virginity, finding God, gaining strength from capacity of evil I didn't have before, betraying the person I loved the most in the world for my own sanity and self-love. God if I really had a choice in how it all played out, I'd still be in love with someone other than myself.

>>41054273
>Do this thing thats impossible for anyone to do
>Can't do it? I guess the version of reality that I want to be true because it makes me feel better is actually true and the apostles were all LIARS and the translators were all LIARS and I am a GENIUS
K
>>41054275
>Pathetic gaslighting attempt
No anon we are having a debate. You have to respond to the points I make, not whinge like a teenage girl.

>>41054270
I've seen this with real life people as well as I, unfortunately, live in the bible belt and deal with these people constantly. That's why I know this person isn't trolling. I like talking high-grade stuff about religion and I find it therapeutic. The bumbling fools are an exercise of my own capabilities and I only hope that I find someone whom I can have these conversations with so I can leave frequent the Internet less.

>>41054291
Then how are you 100% right and I'm 100% wrong? You can't even prove the basis of your belief is correct.

>>41054284
I hate Israel but you hate it for gay angry brown person reasons and not based
>They killed Christ and are a plague on humanity
Reasons
>>41054287
>Doing shrooms
Again, crazy how consistently everything is just one thing

>>41054291
when did you make a point? you just said something about trusting random people? like I'd concede the body of evidence from channeling and hypnosis is not as good as the other claim. however when all the other mystical experiences largely corroborate channelers and the hypnotists, it lends credence to it. Why do you think you actually made a counter to begin with? It seems like you are not tracking the "debate"

>>41054297
This one anon is the only theologically not batshit insane Jew I have met that actually cares about religion. Jews killed Jesus and destroyed the European world by introducing anti-perennial traditions like post-Nicaean Christianity when the Romans were previously super aware of the esoteric meanings behind religions. Also Israel bombs Christians you stupid anglo.

>>41054296
Because you're obviously fucking stupid and there is far more evidence that I'm correct than there is that I'm not. Everything you believe is literally, and I'm not using literally in a figurative or hyperbolic way this time, LITERALLY just conjecture and your own personal opinion. Meanwhile, I have two thousand uninterpreted years of church history.
>>41054299
You are anxious about the possibility of hell which is why you believe what you do in the first place. That was the point I made. You said that mystics have confirmed your beliefs, but have just conceded that isn't great evidence. The point I'm making is that for all of you, you do not actually have any real, objective intellectual gripes with the historicity of Christianity, all of what you believe stems from anxiety regarding it's mainline teachings and what they could imply about you and your future. Everything you believe is cope.

>>41046207 (OP)
Same bro

>>41054310
>you are anxious about hell
i said it was morally problematic. there is an insanely large litany of evidence supporting my claims, I am 100% confident biblical hell doesn't exist. The anxiety thing is something you are smuggling in to try to find motivation

>You said that mystics have confirmed your beliefs, but have just conceded that isn't great evidence.

I was just comparing two claims I made. Obviously I still think it's better evidence, taking into account the mystical experiences spell out reincarnation to begin with which you must necessarily reject (at least 99.9% of christians do)

> The point I'm making is that for all of you, you do not actually have any real, objective intellectual gripes with the historicity of Christianity

You really are extremely lost in tracking this conversation. My argument from the outset was about other evidence against it, I never made a claim about a historical contradiction or something. Why even bring up historicity as if its some strong epistemology to begin with? Are you literally fucking stupid? How can you call me the coper? you literally cannot make this shit up

>>41054304
Just totally retarded. This would take hours that I don't want to spend. Have a (You) and pat yourself on the back, I am officially exhausted. Jews ruined Europe by introducing Christianity to it, the belief system that drove it to explore and conquer the entire world. Fucking hell I have a headache

>>41054310
>2000
Your church had multiple schisms and I know you're a faggot Protestant not even an Orthobro given your complete inability to understand how Athanasius viewed free will. Buddhism and other religions are older than your church that proceeded to destroy the Roman Empire and the fact that your interpretations disagree with it is a damning of you and not me. You still can't come up with a logical reason for your existence unlike us btw lmao.

>>41054318
The Roman Empire converted to Christianity AFTER conquering everything. Why do no Americans know any history.

>>41054316
>i said it was morally problematic.
It is not. God's judgement is perfect and the only people in hell deserve it. If you don't deserve hell, you do not go there. Quite shrimple really
>You really are extremely lost in tracking this conversation
I am talking to like five people at once who all talk exactly the same you dumbas

>>41054328
>It is not. God's judgement is perfect and the only people in hell deserve it. If you don't deserve hell, you do not go there. Quite shrimple really

Proved my point immediately. Can't even semi-rationalize it outside of divine command theory justification. Obviously its "perfect" within the purview of god's metaphysics you braindead retard.

>I am talking to like five people at once who all talk exactly the same you dumbas

I mean this just begs the question for the fourth time of why you are so confident. It's not even like my argument is complicated LMAO. Holy shit man.

>>41054321
The reason for my existence is to be God's companion you fucking idiot. Also I'm Catholic. Also
>Do you think just because something is old, it's correct?
Why not just skip trying to integrate all of these unworkable contradictory ideas and become a Buddhist

>>41054325
>Everything
>It's the Mediterranean sea and some of Northern Africa
Inb4 western Europe as if it was6 some shitty outposts that they impotently occupied USA in the middle east style

>>41054333
>Also I'm Catholic.
Listen to your own fucking councils then. Or are you just a Catholic because of some homosexual online?

>>41054331
>Obviously its "perfect" within the purview of god's metaphysics
Then the problem, like I assumed, is that you personally don't like it. Which doesn't matter at all, and you should get over it.
>More whinging
You are retarded

>>41054350
>Listen to this thing (You) hate and don't understand
Listen to the sound of me laughing at (You) from behind the screen

>>41054331
Hell is a conscious state of being, not a physical place that we can experience now just like heaven. Christians and especially current day ones can't defend their principles at all which is why they ultimately became secular and became void of any spiritual depth.

>>41054360
>they ultimately became secular and became void of any spiritual depth.
>Hell is a conscious state of being,
Again, stunning lack of self awareness

>>41054357
Catholicism is the only coherent branch of Christianity because they have a person as the center of authority and not a book which has been the case for thousands of years and is still how humanity learns to this day. The more you argue against the papacy the less legitimization the religion has.

>according to the bible god was talking to us, sending prophets, sending angels, interacting with the earth, causing miracles, ect. for thousands of years
>one day he just stopped
>oh and he pretty much only talked to middle easterners
explain

>>41050883
> But if you tell them that Jesus is the true zero sum for their sins they freak out and mock you
Your hallmark movie scenarios don’t change the fact that your god is a narcissistic piece of shit no matter how you slice the theology.

>>41054366
The person draws their authority from the book, which was written by God as a divinely inspired work. The Pope is the heir of Peter, who as declared head of the church in what? Where is recorded as having been declared the head of the Church, anon? Where does the Pope draw his authority as head of the church?

>>41054375
I'm aware that the church has no real authority because the Bible is a book that proves the authority of the church while the Bible we know was compiled by the church. Most of the Popes didn't give a shit and actively rejected the Bible just like I believe Vatican II does. That's based though so I support it.

>>41054381
>Again, literally just your own unfiltered dogshit opinions
>Contradicting what you said before
>>41054366
Cool man

heheh, looks like your soul will be used as demon lube

>>41046207 (OP)
Choosing to hate God is to hate yourself and your own existence. Appreciate your existence above nothing else because it's stupid not to. Follow whichever path that gives you the mental clarity needed to appreciate it.

>>41054404
I already hate myself I have since I was like five

>>41054416
You can choose to stop at any time. Including now.

>>41054425
No I can't there's nothing here to love. Thanks for your concern tho I appreciate the optimism.

Worship Jesus Christ, I get you're angry but He's your only choice.