Thread 41274296

>NOOO EVIL NEEDS TO EXIST OTHERWISE FREE WILL ISN'T POSSIBLE! YOU JUST DON'T GET KIDS HAVE TO GET RAPED AND BLOWN UP IN WAR FOR THE FREE WILL EXPERIENCE THERE IS NO OTHER WAY! YOU WOULD BE A ROBOT OTHERWISE!!!
>evil deeds are suddenly not possible in heaven anymore but everyone has perfect free will

Umm?

>>41274296 (OP)
what eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil does to a mfer

>>41274306
All it proves that you can have perfect free will without committing evil, according to religion. So innocent beings are suffering for absolutely no reason.

>>41274296 (OP)
none of it is necessary.
if it were necessary, then everyone's child would have to be blown up.

but many people in the 1st world do not go through that.

>>41274296 (OP)
if you start raping in heaven you just fall to a lower plane

Evil people do things to kids and free will is a thing. Maybe not with Angels and demons but I think they do chase these men and women that hurt kids and one day theyll suffer much worse

>>41274340
According to muslim and christian faith it is literally not possible to rape in heaven. You can't even decide to do that or think about it.

>>41274343
NOT the OP,

but I think the point of the post was moreso about extreme suffering not being necessary in order for free will to exist.

For example, is your free will non existent just because ear holes are not big enough for us to rape? Or what about the free will to go breathe underwater and live there? what about the free will to press a button on the back of someone's neck which changes their hair color?

>>41274348
state sponsored religion tends to have a lot of stupid dogma. protestant is an offshoot of state sponsored christianity (catholicism) and muhammed was a statesman

>>41274296 (OP)

Good and Evil will always exist but when it is expressed through violence and harm, that's different, that's being sick.

The reality is "good" and "evil" exist because some prefer following something and building to a prophesy, or something planned. Others prefer to be on their own, develop on their own and grow into something they can only do with themselves.

It's just the latter is more responsibility, you have to control yourself.

There is in-betweens, but that isn't inherently an active "side" because it's for either those too hurt to move on in the moment, or those who are so shut off from growth retarded they want to believe they don't exist.


Good and Evil are opposing in this reality because it's fucking bait.

If you try to be some white knight who's perfect and absolutely a cocksucker, that can make you a sheep.

If you are a rouge that runs around doing whatever the fuck you want with little to no regard for others by your own intention, you are a monster, and you will be tamed as such until you decide to grow into something else.


Evil events exist because it propells us forward in the greater picture.

Rape unfortunately happens because people are sick and fucked up, no doubt.

I believe the unfortunate victims are also powerful bringers of knowledge, for all we know the spirits that are actively suffering, arranged to be witness amd victim, not because they wanted or deserved it, but because they can prevail, even if it takes a cycle or two of existence to fight and overcome, they discover and carve paths to recovery and understanding, so truly damaged souls can be healed and fixed.

Think a noble masochist.


This doesn't excuse rape, or the suffering anybody goes through. It doesn't excuse murder, and everything negative in interaction that we suffer and exist around.

But for some of it, there is a purpose. We can never know who volunteered and who is a victim of these unfortunate things, but no doubt they can be restored.

>>41274296 (OP)
Evil doesn't 'exist'. It is born.
The same way saying shadows always exist. They don't. they come from light being present. Without light it's just dark, therefore no shadows to take form or shape.
in b4 some brainlet goes "DURRR DARK IS SHADOWS STUPID". Think of it the same way your "organs" just exist in the flesh bag you call a body. Remove the body. It's still organs. Just no shape holding it together.

simple logic experiments disprove abrahamoids

>in heaven there is no sin
>how did lucifer rebel then?
>STOP ASKING QUESTIONS

also free will is not compatible with their omnipotent god so it is a deflection at best and deceit at worst by the christians

>>41274343
Where is the free will of the victims to be safe and unharmed?

Why does you god respect the free will of evil abusers but not the victims?

Tbh
If there's no pain there's no gain

Theologians who explain the problem of evil with free will but who will also tell you a few seconds later that god is really in control of everything...

>>41274296 (OP)
assuming the Christian theology isn't shit (which it is and this question proves it), such a state of being in heaven is possible (although such a thing does contradict the first premise of "evil need be for free will to be a thing").

The whole "free will in heaven with zero evil present" is entirely possible if you allow for a all-powerful deity that has no limits. Such a being by definition could make anything that could be conceived of reality, like an existence where free will exists without evil.
With this in mind the question is: if such a thing was done for heaven, why wasn't it, why couldn't it have been done for the physical realm? The question is more pertinent if you hold that "god is love".

>>41274333
go back to tatooine, jawa

>>41274296 (OP)
It's a cope. Fact is, there are better places and we don't have access to them and it isn't fair. And there are worse places. But the good news is, being on this suck planet is temporary.
Also, suffering comes from the ego and is theoretically unnecessary. In modern society we are conditioned to suffer more than we have to. We are conditioned to be oversensitive, easily-offended control freaks. Not saying that to justify cruelty but the fact is it's our natural state to not give a shit as much as we do. When someone gets sick and dies, we're supposed to grieve for a moment and then move on. Not build a whole dystopian wage slave covid lockdown society where sick and crazy people are a protected species everyone else must torture themselves to prevent nature from taking its course.

>>41276938
You ALWAYS have an ego. You can't be egoless unless you become literally hivemind slop. Even God has an ego. Even buddhists have the ego to "le epic egoless guru"

>>41274340
You can't even male it there if you are still capable of that, it's part of the reason why it often takes billions of years of incarnation to finally make it.

>>41276969
If you are not capable of it, you don't have free will. You are a perfected puppet that can only think in one direction.

Your problem is solved really easily by accepting that there is no free will in heaven. Some sects try to cope by saying it's "perfected" by the removal of choice(freedom)

>>41276942
I meant suffering is unnecessary. But yes, having a healthy ego should be a goal. The "no ego" stuff should just be considered a tool for achieving temporary altered states of awareness.

>>41274296 (OP)
It's not that evil needs to exist, but rather good becomes the evil when it's oversaturated. You need a balance of both inconvenience and convenience to be genuinely happy.

If you don't have anything to worry about, then you constantly have to work against the stagnation of "okay, what now?"

>>41276979
I am incapable of wilfully biting my own tongue off, do I have no free will?

>>41277117
1. You are not incapable of that. You could if you really had to.
2. Rape isn't "physically" impossible or evil things in general. If you aren't able to even consider it and then simply decide that you don't want to do it then you don't have free will. You're a 1 dimensional puppet.

>>41277127
I can still rape you (I'm not ready for heaven yet)

>>41275000
Freewill is also incompatible with the aryan demiurge you stupid paganoid déterminisme rule freewill is a illusion

>>41275000
Freewill is also incompatible with the aryan demiurge you stupid paganoid déterminisme rule freewill is a illusion

>>41274296 (OP)
>does bad thing
>somehow this is God's fault

You are a retard. We ate from the Tree of Knowledge. We killed those children. We strung Christ up on that cross. We are all evil, vile beasts undeserving of His love. Yet, He gives it to us.

>>41275000
>Where is the free will of the victims to be safe and unharmed?
That's what makes those acts evil, it is a violation of their will.

>>41274296 (OP)
>God is all powerful (can literally do anything that could be imagined)
>God created the universe and the laws that govern it
>God isn't powerful enough to make a universe that produces free will without dualism that leads to suffering

The retarded cope from abrahamic religions is maddening. Which is probably why most of them are insane.

>>41277770
>we ate from the tree that god gave us while knowing we would eat from it and its our fault we did this thing he knew we would do after he set us up for failure
OK retard

>>41277918
I agree.

>>41274311
Unfortunately, this realm exists in the way it does based on the creative potential of The Creator and is considered a lower realm. Most of the suffering goes unchecked because of that reality. And most of the suffering is caused by beings or humans' Astral selves.

>>41274296 (OP)
Who's doing the raping?

>>41276942
The Ego Death thing is honestly one of the biggest psy ops.

It's slave self erasure mentality. Sounds like someone really has an interest in egos dying.

Nah, fuck Ego Death.

>>41278342
yes yes agreed with you with my whole heart

>>41274296 (OP)
Free will exists without sin in heaven (the new earth) because Satan will be destroyed before we get there.

>>41278419
How will Satan be destroyed? What would that entail?

>>41274296 (OP)
>>evil is not possible in heaven
Ya because evil is mostly born out of imbalance of ability. Cant rape someone who can simply phase away from you or through you. Cant kill someone who can phase through your blows and ignores you. Cant starve someone who requires no food. Foundationally suffering is brought forth by limitation in existence if you arnt limited then it becomes nearly impossible to have evil performed against you successfully.

This world isnt only to experience free will its to experience it in conditions that create meaning to your choices.

Do you Christians not play video games?
Tons of 'evil' which isn't soul crushing.

Like raiding someone's heckin' base in an RP server.

Go play some Arelith. Tons of drama and story and villains without any permanent death or rape!

>>41278492
Revelation 20

>>41279514
Why would The Creator have to do such theatrics? That I would love to know.

>>41274296 (OP)
>thinks about free will
>immediately starts thinking about kids being raped and killed
That says more about you than anything else, nonce

>>41279723
Because free will is always respected.
>why?
Because the core essential part of the self that possesses agency is uncreated and co-eternal with God.
>why?
Because agency is necessary for existence and is a part of the very fabric of reality/being itself.
>why?
Because it is a divine law.
>why?
Because since God is perfectly good and just, he authors the divine laws and can not himself disobey them. To use a metaphor: he builds the roads, he sets the speed limits, and he himself does not speed while driving on them. There is just one standard for morality for all beings and God meets the standard perfectly. We, however, do always fall short of that standard because Satan tempts us to. When Satan is destroyed, we will only use our free will to do non-sinful actions.

>>41274296 (OP)
free will isnt evil no
free will and individuality are what make humans super

>>41279963
>Because free will is always respected
So that means he has to launch an assault on the forces of evil, just because what? It's fun?
>Because the core essential part of the self that possesses agency is uncreated and co-eternal with God
What does that have to do with the theatrics?
>Because the core essential part of the self that possesses agency is uncreated and co-eternal with God
So?
>Because it is a divine law
And?
Seems unnecessary. I'll wait for your "God" just to laugh in his face for trying so hard.

>>41278086
Anon, you sound like you're a believer. I'm worried there's nothing after this. Can you give me some help? I'm a drunken mess right now so the comedown is bad right now. Just drank 8% drinks so that's why my body's out of sorts. Whenever my body feels like it's falling apart faster than normal it scares me because I'm reminded of my mortality that I hate.

Just ask them if biblical god has free will and watch them implode

>>41278655
I've always vibed with the message this IS a dream but it's a dream as a lesson. Though, I'm not a hardcore believer to the point I'm not afraid of death, which is a state one WOULD reach if you start to really believe in NDE style worldviews. All that being said, I've only recently come into contact with "We're here to get a grasp on existence when you're limited and NOT a 4d spirit." I find that that makes sense. This realm is so limited on purpose.

>>41279946
That's an entirely unfair take I feel. He's bringing up how it's the worst evil and how he finds that it's a failure on God's part not ours.

>choices need to exist otherwise free will isn't possible
Well yeah eejit if I'm only capeable of being nice to people you'd probably think I've been mkultrad or tortured or smthn

>>41274296 (OP)
I want materialists to hurry up and die from the weakness of their souls

>>41277787
>Why does your god respect the free will of evil abusers but not the victims?

>>41280765
>you don't have the free will to fly in the sky or talk to animals
>ch*ld rape has to be included in gods creation though. non negotiable

abrahamoids are ridiculous

>>41280822
Can you make your argument more concise you sound like you're just sperging.

>>41280865
Ofc it's just sperging anon think of thhe entire premise
>grants God allows free will
>grants God is omniscient
>decides they know free will and thhe best form of it better than God
>decides its a good idea to make humans able to fly and forgets 9/11
You are talking to stereotype of a woman

>>41280745
There is not nothing after this, there are many avenues to take after this life. Or you can reincarnate. If you need help getting over your addiction to alcohol, simply pray for 5 minutes about what you want to get over, you should be able to see a difference after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAMc-ZoEeS8

Paraphrasing:
"...Just because he has some of the powers, doesn't mean he has all the powers."

How is that so hard to grasp?

>have an addiction
>decide I have free will
>break free of addiction
mfw faggots still claiming free will does not exist

>>41279963
>Because free will is always respected.

Weird how free will suddenly isn't respected in heaven anymore and no human in heaven is able to even think or commit a small evil. LOL.

>>41280780
I want low IQ retards who see only the option to be a religious cuck OR a materialist to hurry up and die from the weakness of their brains.

>>41280865
>>41280872
That anon BTFO both of you though. Here's a question you won't be able to answer without sounding like a psycho retard.

Why did God - who limits biology ALL the time and decides what is possible and what isn't - decide that it is biologically very possible for an OLD father to rape his 11 year old daughter and produce healthy off-spring? First generation incest is almost always completely healthy.

Why did God, if he is all good, limit other biological functions in us and made it impossible but he did not limit the ability of fathers to rape their own little girls and create fertile off spring with them?

Pro tip: You can't explain this without sounding insane or evil.

>>41281136
They're not going to answer that.

>>41281136
>reddit spacing
Invalid Already Already
>why did a being who's infinitely smarter than me
Don't presuppose that you'd know the answer or it would make sense to you
>why did God let bad thing happen
And an epicureantard at that
Go suck your funkopops anon you deserve no answer from me

>>41281356
Literally didn't answer her very good question, dawg. You literally believe in a God that has to waste his time leading an assault on Evil forces, when, if he was The Creator then he wouldn't even need to do all that.

>>41281356
>reddit spacing
I don't know how people type on reddit but you do? Who is the real reddit-fag then? Retard.
>Don't presuppose that you'd know the answer or it would make sense to you
"NOOO DON'T QUESTION DADDY HE IS SMARTER THAN US!!! SPREAD YOUR ASS OPEN AND OBEY"
ok slave cuck
>And an epicureantard at that
No argument. Like I said, go you blown the fuck out in every way possible.

>>41274296 (OP)
I think the Devil is pissed at me. Because I'm better.

Can't beat God's will. People think they can or ignore the extince of God's will.

Has nothing to do with who wins wars or the Football team that wins.

Not your bank accounts or riches.

What I have learned is I cant be beat because I don't do, anything to try to "win".

The ones that choose to be my enemy from here or below is by choice.

And what I learned from Jesus is all I have to do is, nothing...let them bring what they have, let them try, let them do the worst shit they want to try...

Why? Because this life is the illusion. After this life, no matter whom you are, the money you have the power you have on Earth is nothing but, the illusion.

I dont have to guess or ponder nor wonder. I know, I will see each and everyone.

If some don't like that, talk to God. One can only do what God wants. The illusion, the trap, is to believe otherwise.

To each their own. So I do pray on my enemies because, they just don't get it.

>>41281136
>Weird how free will suddenly isn't respected in heaven anymore and no human in heaven is able to even think or commit a small evil. LOL.
Are you illiterate or did you not see the original post I responded to? We will have free will in heaven, but the devil will be destroyed before we get there, and combined with us getting new perfect and exalted eternal ressurected bodies, we will not be inclined towards concupiscence. We don't become mindless lobotomized zombies, we reach our full potential as sons of God.

>>41281369
>very good question
It's the same why God if bad thing question jist recycled to have worse thing and the answer is the same: free will os more important than lack of suffering
>>41281371
>uhhh uhhhh no you
Shut it funkopops
>you're a cuck for admitting an omniscient being is smarter than you
OK and you aren't a real woman if we're trying to transcend reality here
>not an answer
The answer is 1000 responds up you just asked the same question again just in a slightly different way
You have insanity by definition

>>41281901
No, her questions were specific. Not just a problem of evil bullshit you can't argue against, she's literally saying whoever made the human body is evil.

>>41281901
>The answer is 1000 responds up you just asked the same question again just in a slightly different way

Nope. Your "answer" was you exposing yourself as a reddit expert (no surprise) and just saying shit that doesn't logically add up at all unless you're a slave cuck. Appealing to to mystery isn't an argument, it's an admission that your worldview can't account for consistency.

Intelligence and power don't equal moral justification. I'm sure that much should be clear even to you. A being can be vastly more intelligent yet morally indifferent or malevolent. And that is what this discussion is about. Philosophical inquiry requires us to ask why things are the way they are. Refusing to ask is anti-rational or in your case the mindset of a pathetic slave who just bends over for Daddy without ever daring to question him.

>>41281837
Are you retarded? If I can only act in one specific way I don't have free will. If I can ONLY be "God's perfect baby uwu :3" and have no capability to be any other way I am a zombie.

>>41281909
How do you even know my gender? I don't think I ever said it in the thread. It doesn't matter but I am confused regardless.

>>41281997
I don't know how to explain it. A mix of the way you type and your aura, I guess.

>>41282000
Got it.

>>41281909
>uhm ackshewally he said if God why bad thing with 5 paragraphs and exceptions
Same question same answer
>wall of seethe
OK so I win? Cheers mate

>>41282048
As said above: Appealing to to mystery isn't an argument, it's an admission that your worldview can't account for consistency. You lost, faggot.

Maybe go and post a bit on reddit now, apparently you are quite experienced how people write there as you have demonstrated in your earlier posts.

>>41282048
Much like playing chess with a pigeon, except the pigeon plays better.

>>41282053
He's phoneposting because he's a tourist.

>>41282063
What a poor moron.

>>41274296 (OP)
There is no evil, only mistakes. Mistakes that must sometimes be... corrected.

>>41281973
Agency is the power to act, not just choose between sin and righteousness. It's deeper than a menu that must include wicked options. God is completely free, yet he cannot lie or otherwise sin. The righteous resurrected will not want to sin, and in that sense sin becomes impossible for them, not because God blocks their will, but because their will has been healed and aligned.

>>41282097
So if God teleported you in a room and the only thoughts you could have are "I love God. I want to serve God. God is great." and nothing else while being able to pick between 5 different acts of serving God... you can't do or think anything else... this would be your definition of free will?

A person walking around thinking I LOVE GOD! I LOVE GOD! with absolutely no other thoughts and singing a song to God or painting pictures of God, rinse and repeat? That's not a puppet - that's a whole spectrum soul with free will?

>>41280745
If you can imagine nothing if it would be a possibility.

>>41282108
Heaven is not a white room. It is a living society in a renewed creation. Prophets speak of a “new earth” with cities, nations that “walk in the light,” kings who “bring their glory,” and service “day and night” before God’s throne, with God dwelling with His people and wiping away tears, etc
You mistake repaired desire for erased desire. The redeemed do not want evil, just as a healed person does not want the disease that once afflicted them. Their range of choice is vast among many goods. Their joy is full because their will and God’s will freely coincide. In the intercessory prayer, Christ prayed for us to be one with God in the same manner he is - not in a metaphysical sense but with a perfectly harmoniously aligned will.

>>41282184
>person can only love and service God 24/7
>has no other thoughts or options, can't even imagine to be any other way
>they can only be the way God wants them to be (purified)
>this is FREE will, btw

Ok, I disagree.

>>41282199
Living 24/7 in love and service to God sinlessly like Christ is the ideal and in should be how we orient our lives. The fact that it is impossible for us to do so currently because of the fall and temptations of Satan is not a good thing. That I repent of my sins and shortcomings to God in preparation for eternal life in such a state of purification, as Jesus preached and instructed his followers to do, (while using my free will to do so in such a fallen state) is at the very least indicative that my will is already being aligned with God’s will, that the image of Christ is beginning to be formed in me. It showwsthat I am exercising the same kind of agency I will one day possess in perfection.

>>41282289
Should be... according to? The puppet master? I would like to be my own free individual.

Freewill is mostly an illusion it seems, and here is why. We live in a dualistic universe where power can be drawn from two sources, the positive and negative aspect. You can "choose" one or the other, but the further you go down the path of either, the more prescribed your actions are. You can't high in affinity to either aspect by doing things of the opposite aspect, therefore the higher affinity with one aspect or the other, the more choices are unavailable to you.

Here's another way to think of it. You have a lowest version of yourself your individual expression, and the highest version of your self. You can engage in base desires to satisfy your lowest aspect, but if you truly want something wholesome which is only accessible by becoming more enlightened/spiritually developed, satisfying your base desires is no longer an option.
Think about the process of completing a very specific technical task. There are a million ways to do it wrong, and only one, sometimes two ways to do it right. You don't really have freewill if there is only one way, one course of action amongst millions of possible branching choices, that will actually achieve the desired outcome. You can get a vague facsimile of what you truly desire a million different ways, but if you insist on getting something very specific (whether physical, mental, spiritual, systematic, emotional etc.) There is usually only one path that will lead exactly there. It's like the skill tree in most video games. To get to a specific node, there is only one path of branching choices to get you there. We do NOT live in a universe with a skill tree akin to Path Of Exile, where there are millions of different paths that can be taken to get to a specific node. (Pic related) If we did, we'd be a lot closer to actual freewill.

>>41281136
>Why did God, if he is all good, limit other biological functions in us and made it impossible but he did not limit the ability of fathers to rape their own little girls and create fertile off spring with them?
This is likely a last resort thing to prevent total lineage die off after cataclysm or other crisis. I doubt it was meant to ever be normal behavior, but simply an emergency failsafe.

>>41282487
YO BROTHER IS SMART! HE'S A SMART GUUUUUUUUYYYYY...

>>41274296 (OP)
Every good has an equal and opposite bad. That is infortunately balance.

>>41282564
Why are you upset?

>>41282598
I'm not. I'm saying you're smart. In a funny way, because it reminded me of the Smart Guy opening.

>>41282598
One thing, though. She did imply that he could turn it on and off at anytime and any which way he wants. Now the only reason I could think that he wouldn't is he wants to maintain the illusion of distance because this is Hell, what say you?

>>41282600
Oh, I didn't know you were making a referance kek my bad.

>>41282487
1. God knows the future and he would be aware that "Old Dads diddling their little daughters" wasn't needed for humanity to exist.
2. If he really needed a last resort there are other biological mechanisms that could be put in place. Some animals can impregnate THEMSELVES if there are no men available.

>>41282623
Yeah, but that goes for everything here, God can change this shit in an instant in a way that could make suffering seem like a mandela effect, but that's part of it. I've heard it claimed that it might be the worst: a far off backwater factory farm planet that's completely controlled by parasite demons, no support from other planets so no outside salvation possible. This is a hell realm by design, one of the last kinds of places you would go before moving on. That's why we have people around that are actually divine beings that chose to help out here (and also demonic beings to try and hold us back), you just wouldn't get that in an easier plane of existence because they wouldn't be necessary. It's bad here, survival through consumption on it's own is an unnatural horror that's extremely rare in the grand scheme, so from it's foundation life here is suffering.

>>41282679
Do you think God is the skydaddy that commands everything directly? God is more like the thing that dreams everything into existence and experiences all perspectives. This place is a nightmare, so things will just naturally find the most grotesque and painful solutions possible in this life.

>>41282704
Do you think biology just randomly happened and there is no purpose, design and intelligence behind how things are? Even if nature was completely random (and religious people do not believe that) then God still is the designer of what random even means.

>>41282708
It's random in the sense that it is what it has to be to serve as a conduit for conscious perception; more like it's proceduraly generated, where details of it's function manifest as the ability to percieve it increases.

>>41274296 (OP)
Don't think about it too hard anon. Free will exists but it's limited in humans. If it doesn't exist, it wouldn't matter what any of us thinks then, including your opinion on free will, because it's predetermined anyways. But it's better to play it safe rather than sorry and assume free will does indeed exist in us all, but that it's limited in practice and in reality. Regardless, in a functioning and civil society, we hold each other 100% accountable for our free will and actions. We should assume we have 100% free will over ourselves, because it's just more positive and healthy to think and feel that way, and maybe we do have 100% free will anyways, so again, better safe rather than sorry.

And if you get to earn the right to go to heaven, then that means you practiced the free will to not do evil deeds. So naturally everybody there are not going to be evil people doing evil deeds. If they did, they'd probably get kicked out of heaven immediately. It's just simple Mathenomics, anon.

>>41274296 (OP)
The problem with Christian defenses of free will are that they also, barring a few crypto-Pelagians, affirm that salvation is only possible through grace (either synergistic or monergistic). If that's true, if it's only possible to overcome one's fallen nature through God extending grace to you, why do we even need a capacity for free will in the first place? It isn't like our depraved evil born of that freedom can serve a value in teaching us to overcome it, as only God can initiate that process of salvation (and according to Christianity, is perfectly capable of initiating that process in people who haven't faced or committed the worse excesses of evil). If that's so, why do we even need free-will if God directs the process of salvation anyways? Even more synergistic soteriologies still affirm that it is God's grace that empowers us to cooperate with that saving grace, so free will doesn't really even exist there. So all in all, we have depraved "free will" that we have no capability of freely overcoming and grace that we really have no freedom over either. If freedom can already be restricted so thoroughly, why leave in the freedom to murder and rape and genocide and all the other evils we have seemingly been given the freedom to do? What's the point, if we've already been made unfree in so many other ways? This isn't even getting into the problems of things like natural disasters, disease, animal attacks, and especially demons. Even if you don't find any problems with free will amongst humans, why would God give natural objects with no possibility of salvation the ability to slaughter his children? Why would he let demonic entities, far more powerful than any human (barring a few saints), use their immense capabilities to torment people and lead them towards evil?

>>41282735
>Why?
Seems like that's something we need to find out for ourselves and get to the bottom of this. Until then, keep moving forward in life. Not like we have a choice anyhow.

>>41282598
y r u gae???

>>41282784
Y u eata da poo poo?

>>41282787
hoo ses i eet de poo poo??

Consciousness lay at the center, rested, at a multiple choice expanse. It must make a choice, thus free will exists

>>41282796
deh gae eata da poo poo
>Captcha: H4HRT

>>41282797
Consciousnesses is fundamental!

>>41282801
deh gae eata da poo poo???
bat u r gae!
u eata de poo poo!
u r gae!
gae poo poo eata!

>>41282827
lol

>>41274296 (OP)
In his writings, especially his classic Heaven and Hell, Emanuel Swedenborg paints a picture of hell that might surprise you. The popular image of hell is of a place where people are condemned by God to suffer for all eternity as punishment for their sins. But Swedenborg says that hell is a choice: evil people go there voluntarily because it’s a mindset from which they can be free to do what makes them happy—even if what makes them happy is to hurt other people. The suffering in hell isn’t inflicted by a race of supernatural demons whose job is to punish the wicked; instead, it comes from being surrounded by people (now in spirit form) who are the very definition of evil:

Picture a community made up of people [who are] all totally in love with themselves, not caring about others unless they are allies, and you will see that their love is no different from that of thieves for each other. To the extent that they are acting in concert, they embrace each other and call each other friends; but once they stop cooperating, once anyone resists their control, they attack and butcher each other. If their deeper natures—their minds—are probed, it will be clear that they are full of virulent hatred for each other, that at heart they ridicule anything fair and honest and even ridicule the Deity, tossing it aside as worthless. (Heaven and Hell §560)"

Hell is a place where people spend all their time trying to control and manipulate each other in order to gain power and esteem, and they find joy in thinking of ways to torment each other. All of the spirits in hell were once human beings, but they are people who have rejected anything good or loving that might have been in them while they were living on earth. They’ve fully and openly embraced the self-love and contempt of others that were their primary motivations while they were alive.

https://youtu.be/gXCO1P6r-Kw

>>41283024
this vid plays like a nostalgia critic bit but pretty interesting desu

>>41281973
You have the free will to roll around in a pile of broken glass
But you don't
You could sin in heaven, that's how Satan did it
But you won't want to because it's perfect
>but I WANNA BE BAD SO BAD
Cool and allowedpilled, but, you'll be cast out

>>41283819
>you'll be cast out
Do you have any source for that.

>>41274296 (OP)
Free will is a mistake, it doesnt make me happy, i just want to be happy

>>41284029
What would make you happy?

>>41274395
Nigga I didn't volunteer to share a reality woth people who rape or volunteer to be raped

Why cant I exist in a reality with no rapists or people that can be vulnerable to rape

It shouldn't even exist conceptually, it should be erased like how aids got erased in chainsaw man

>>41277064
We only worry about "what now" because we exist in the dimension of time

Fuck time

>>41284043
The problem of evil disappearing with free will. It wouldnt be hard to be happy if the world was fluffy and gentle with none of the suffering going on

>>41284074
On the subject of the problem of evil, one thing that's particularly damning is that whatever's responsible for the metaphysics of this place (God or the Gods, the demiurge; assuming he's not some evil schlomo creature and is just an incompetent downie, etc.), it seems to not only have absolutely no faith in human beings changing themselves (and I'm not talking NPCs and whatnot, I'm talking real human beings who are either awakening or still have a good chance to awaken). I don't know about other people and I can't speak for others, but I for one wouldn't be content just sitting around sipping martinis and getting sucked off on some tropical beach. I'd get bored and I'd start exploring, and I find that what helps me understand myself, or at the very least get into the headspace necessary to understand myself, is any form of creative work, whether baking, making wine or drawing or even doing 3D modeling on a computer. I don't need a fire lit under my ass to not be satisfied with myself and feeling like I need to change (if anything lighting a fire under my ass has done far more harm than good because I'm not yet at that point in my development where I can ignore the superficial bullshit and address the problem behind the fire that's burning my ass).

More than that though, I've noticed that at the very least, and most often, it's gods like the ancient greek pantheon that not only have no faith in humans whatsoever, they'll project their own inadequacies onto them. It's Arachne's fault that Athena couldn't beat her in a weaving contest (I suppose Arachne made the mistake of giving in to ego, but turning her into a spider wasn't going to correct the underlying problem). The greek gods are just absolute BOOMERS. They're even worse than the average NPC because they're immortal and extremely powerful, but they too have the mentation of spoiled children.

>>41280865
>>41280872
>pretends to not understand because they would completely lose otherwise

again your creator is fine limiting humans on certain things (ie. we can't fly) but just has to include rape and murder

also free will is unbiblical

>>41282296
You are free to remove the strings but without them you are a lifeless puppet, not animated by spirit.
Removing God from yourself is the same as dying.
You have the choice to choose God or to choose death.
You cannot live without God because God is the one who exists. God is existence. How do you exist without existence? You cannot.
You are dead. A puppet without strings. Dead.

>>41282735
>If that's true, if it's only possible to overcome one's fallen nature through God extending grace to you, why do we even need a capacity for free will in the first place?
Because God wants you to ask for it.
God wants you to choose him over the alternative.
Ask and you shall receive.

>>41284961
>God wants you to choose him over the alternative.
But that's the problem, according to orthodox Christian soteriology, you don't choose him, he chooses you. All non-Pelagian Christians (ie all modern Christians) affirm God initiates salvation, and while Lutherans and Calvinists affirm that God's grace determines every single aspect of the salvation process, even synergistic soteriology (Catholicism, Arminianism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy) all affirm that "cooperation" with saving grace is itself only possible through grace. No matter what, it is grace that saves, not any human actions (including "choosing" God). So if God's grace is what saves, the presence of evil cannot do anything to compel a person towards God, nor can a will towards changing one's own evil ways. Hence, what use does evil serve? The perpetrators can't be saved by realizing the extent of what they have done, nor can the victims by their aversion to what happened to them. Only grace can save, so why not just extend that grace without the evil in the first place, especially given that the Bible is explicit that nobody can earn it?

>>41274296 (OP)

Free will is an illusion. Whether creationist or secular we all agree on two things.

>1 Existence has a beginning moment (big bag or creation)
>2 For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction

Therefore there is no such thing as free will because everything including this thread is nothing but the inevitable reaction of the initial action that was the big bang/creation