Thread 41352009

>be God
>Europe, the place from where your religion spread to the whole globe, is becoming godless and descending into chaos
>war, communism, secularism dominate
>modern scientific theories give people an explanation for the world besides God, people doubt whether miracles are possible
>send the Virgin Mary to some shepherd kids in Portugal, arrange for a public miracle
>40,000-70,000 see the sun fly towards the earth, turn multicolored, spin in place in a totally unexplainable way
>thousands of well-documented accounts of this miracle, even by non-believers
>literally not a single (non-Christian) example of a "mass hallucination" like this in recorded history where tens of thousands of people see the same thing, much less one in modern times
>most people ignore the event or outright dismiss it

What more proof could God give you? Why is your heart hardened?

even if I knew that Jesus resurrected, I would not worship your god.

>>41352033
>knows there is an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God
rejects him

this would make you a retard

>>41352560
the title of all-loving is not just claimed, it has to be earned through demonstrable decisions of love.

The Bible does not depict an all-loving God, no matter how much it is claimed.

As for all-powerful and all-knowing? I don't bow to anyone, I don't care how much pain or pleasure they threaten or bribe me with.

>>41352615
And what is love to you? How do you define love and goodness? You say the God of the Bible is evil, but what even is evil in your mind?

You're prideful. You think a finite little human knows better than the being that created the entire universe. How do you know this isn't the best possible universe?

>I don't bow to anyone, I don't care how much pain or pleasure they threaten or bribe me with
You are arrogant and prideful

>>41352033
Ding-ding-ding! Correct answer!
The sides for the final battle have already been chosen.
Jesus wins btw

>>41352653

I just know.

I don't offload my morality to a book. I kept my conscience.

>>41352653
you just denied your own sense of moral reasoning and imagination for the sake of a book.

>>41352693
I am not that anon but you're speaking nonsense. Everyone bows down to someone or something, even if it's just an idea. Everyone has something or other that is most beloved.

>>41352009 (OP)
>becoming godless and descending into chaos
>>war, communism, secularism dominate
Europe was engaged in constant war with itself until abrahamism was discarded.

>>41352674
Your moral intuitions, sense of love, etc are from God. Your conscience is given to you by God. It only exists because of God

>>41352693
Objective morality doesn't exist without God. If God doesn't exist, everything is permitted

>>41352715
This is a very reductionist way to look at things.

>>41353162
God does not necessarily mean the Abrahamic God.

The Abrahamic God is a sadist who makes problems when no problems had to be made.

>>41353182
How is the Abrahamic God a sadist, please explain. Sin is just what goes against God's nature, which is unchanging. God can't change what is and isn't sin because the nature of sin is that which is opposite God's goodness

>>41353265
There is no necessary reason for subjecting conscious beings to this against their will.

God could have made powerful and perfect beings with free will. He has free will and you say he is all powerful and all good.

None of it is necessary.

>>41353376
God doesn't have free will in the way we do. We are able to lie, but God can't lie because he can't act against his own essence and goodness.

You think it's such a burden to be born, what a nihilistic shitty attitude. Being alive is a gift.

You realize that in order for us to truly have free will we have to be able to go against God? If we were required to do what God says we wouldn't have free will. You seem to misunderstand Christian theology.

>>41353435
So you do not believe that God can create beings who are good and also have free will, alright.

if you can't see how this isn't necessary then I guess we just disagree.

you think child cancer is necessary. I personally don't.

All Conscious Beings Must be Gods of our own reality.

religious psychosis

hundreds of people say they saw elvis, micheal jackson and hitler too

>>41353435
>but God can't lie
The bible says god deceives and sends lying spirits so that's bullshit too

>>41353471
the definition of psychosis is a loss of association with reality, which you are experiencing by willfully denying the testimonies of tens of thousands of people, some of them being non-religious as noted in the OP.

you aren't using rational or reasonable analysis when evaluating the event. you're reaching a conclusion (this can't be real) and then working retroactively to justify your conclusion. valid and meaningful analysis necessitates careful examination of the evidence and then reaching plausible/hypothetical conclusions.

however, this doesn't mean that the event exclusively implies the existence of the God of the bible, it does confirm the ability for some form of 'intelligence' to manipulate reality and/or its perception to portray a specific idea or ideology presumably to accomplish a goal.

the remaining question is why would it do this? you'd have to ask it. good luck with getting a satisfactory answer.

>>41353572
They probably saw a natural atmospheric phenomena but since they're deranged superstitious christcucks they attribute it to Mary even though she never had such a divine active role lol


Also I made an online petition that says 10,000 people agree you're a faggot

Schedule that gender reaffirming surgery bro

>>41353471
thousands of people didn't see elvis or michael jackson at the same time, lol

>>41353518
This is talking about God giving people over to their self-deception when they worship idols. The hebrew word can also be translated as "entice", similar to how God gives people over to their hardened hearts when they repeatedly and insisistently reject God

>>41353447
How do you know child cancer isn't necessary? Can you see ten thousand years into the future? It's arrogant to assume you know better than God.

And actually, God is in the process of creating beings with free will who are all-good, which we will be when the resurrection happens and we're all purified and living with God. Our current world is God's process for doing this (speculation), you're just mad that he didn't do it immediately, but maybe this world is a necessary step in producing truly free and truly good creatures. Again, you arrogantly assume you know more than God.

>>41353601
Then why haven't any similar incidents like the Miracle of the Sun happened if it's so common? I'll wait for you to find a non-Christian incident of thousands or tens of thousands "hallucinating" something

>>41353601
an extreme ideological adherence to the truth, whatever it may be, is what true rationality is.

if you're not interested in the truth, why be here? why read posts, why reply at all? once again you've glossed over the established fact that not every individual at the event was religious, so your name-calling is null and void and its only purpose is to leak poison into your mind and lurkers ITT. natural phenomenon do not cause wet clothes to near-instantly dry, and do not appear as sentient and recognizable significant religious icons.

the remaining contents of your reply are ad-hominem and are therefore worthless.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fátima
>According to the testimony of three children (especially Lucia, the most gifted of the seers), the apparition was about a meter tall (!) and looked like a child of 12-15 years of extraordinary beauty. She had black eyes (!). She was dressed in such a radiant white dress that it hurt her eyes.
>She never smiled (!). Francisco also said that she spoke without moving (!) her lips.

>https://www.rosary-center.org/fatimams.htm
>In August 1917, Our Lady told the children: "Pray fervently and offer sacrifices (!) for sinners, for many souls will go to hell (intimidation) because there is no one to offer sacrifices (!) for them." Regarding the sacrifices Our Lady asked for, she once revealed to Sister Lucia: "The good Lord allows himself to be propitiated... but He Himself bitterly and sadly laments the small number of souls in His grace who are willing to renounce all that the observance of His laws requires of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
>"The sun, at one moment surrounded by a scarlet flame, at another by a yellow and dark violet halo, seemed to be in extremely rapid and swirling motion, at times seeming to separate from the sky and approach the earth, radiating intense heat."
>"The solar disk did not remain motionless. This was not the radiance of a celestial body, for it was spinning on its axis in a frantic whirlwind, when suddenly a commotion was heard from all the people." The sun, spinning, seemed to detach itself from the sky and menacingly approach the earth, as if trying to crush us with its enormous fiery weight. The sensation in those moments was terrifying."
>"I can't describe what I saw. I stared at the sun, which seemed pale and didn't hurt my eyes. Resembling a spinning snowball, it suddenly began to descend, zigzagging, threatening the earth. In terror, I ran and hid among the people who were crying and expecting the end of the world at any moment

>>41353635
I know it isn't necessary because I can imagine a world without child cancer. And it is a very good world.

You gave up your imagination and moral sense though.

God would not need a 'process' to complete his goals.

>>41353635
imagine a perfect being with no needs in pure bliss opening his eyes and going "I think I should make child cancer possible."

>>41353657
>adherance to the truth
>believes in hearsay

lol

>>41353635
So? Millions of people have attested to the divine experience of Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Greek Pantheons. Are they equally valid now to your eyes? No only your cult is the correct one lol.

The verse literally says jewgod had an active role in the deception lmao. Stop the pilpul.

>that child had to die miserably from leukemia and that little girl get r*ped because it's GODS PLAN OK

deranged

I didn't say it was common I just said it's more likely to be atmospheric phenomena. Again millions of people claim to validate religious expriences in Islam and others as well.

>>41353680
>scientific explanation cock blocks you in you're path

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(optical_phenomenon)

nothing personnel theist

>>41353680
>Pray fervently and offer sacrifices

Isn't this demonic? Only jesus is the completed sacrifice according to your theology

>>41353784
>hearsay
so it would only be true if you were there? do you understand how witness testimony works in a court of law? if 10 individual witnesses state they saw a blue getaway car fleeing a crime scene, that's significant.

what if it was 10,000 witnesses?

your anti-religious pre-conceived notions are clouding your judgement, you're no different than the pro-religious you so vehemently despise and consider yourself above. your inflated ego demands you be better than those people when in fact it makes you less.

>>41353858
Ancient civilizations recorded eclipses as a giant wolf or giant dragon eating the sun

Guess we have to believe in cosmic giant animal sun eaters now

>>41353759
that child who died of cancer is in heaven with Jesus now. you take a worldly view of existence so of course it seems horrible. but any finite amount of suffering can be justly compensated for with eternal paradise with God.

How do you *know* it isn't necessary to have child cancer? Again, the arrogance. Have you created a whole universe?

>>41353784
None of those testimonies involve tens of thousands of people seeing the same thing at the same time, lol. It's a UNIQUE event is my point, and it's not explainable naturalistically. If this stuff could happen naturalistically why are there no events in recorded history like it?

>>41353897
>the serial killer has taken the child now after torturing them
Lol. Was it too hard for the merciful god take them to heaven without torturing them first?

Islam and other religions has similar miracles that thousands have testified to.

Again people testifying means nothing. If that's all it took then other major religions have the same validity.

>>41353897
I can easily imagine a universe without child cancer.

I don't betray my morals or imagination. I know things could be way better. I can see it in my mind. And no book is going to make me act like a slave.

>>41353869
not only was your example thousands of years ago and the miracle of the sun was only last century, we now know what those phenomenon were that the ancients saw and it actually does validate that they saw *something*.

your skeptical claims are tantamount to contemporary people at that time saying the witnesses to eclipses were crazy simply because it didn't fit into the dominate and current weltanschauung.

>Guess we have to believe in cosmic giant animal sun eaters now
it means we have to believe there is validity to the characteristics of the phenomenon reported and that there is no acceptable prosaic explanation as of today.

does this mean it was Mary, mother of Christ? does this mean it was an alien attempting to manipulate human beliefs? no, it means something significant happened that we can't explain yet. that's all. but myopic skeptics such as yourself can't allow your ego to accept this 'insult' to your intellect. ironically this thrusts you into the depths of ignorance that you ascribe to the people you despise.

>>41353929
>Again people testifying means nothing.
even in the court of law, that's untrue. let's hope you are never accused of a crime that you didn't commit and you refuse to utilize witnesses that can corroborate your alibi.

>>41353945
>grasping at straws

you are trying to deceive that this event was modern. when we didn't have atmospheric flight or rockets at that time. stop lying.

>we can't explain it
various optical illusions can explain it
religious psychosis can explain it
perhaps they were just trying to lie and be relevant can explain it

don't forget you unironically thought you burned wizards and witches throughout history you deranged retards

>>41353965
Try to testify I magically turned into a frog and cursed you to have erectile dysfunction in modern times and see how that goes in the court of law

>>41353999
>you are trying to deceive
i said it happened last century, which it did. "modern" is not a word i used in my post. i said the ancients lived thousands of years ago, which they did.
>various optical illusions can explain it
they cannot explain all of the characteristics of the event. optical illusions do not dry wet clothes or appear as religious icons.
>religious psychosis can explain it
there's no such thing, and even if there was there were non-religious individuals at the event. this is the third time i've had to remind posters of this, you're willfully ignoring descriptions of the event to fit your pre-conceived conclusion. you're intellectually disingenuous and are only doing a disservice to yourself if you have any affinity at all to discover the truth.
>perhaps they were just trying to lie and be relevant can explain it
they *could* be lying, but we have no reason to believe that's the case. you would have to accept that 10,000+ people all planned pre-emptively to lie about an event, where once again, non-religious people were present that would have no incentive to lie about something that disproves their own beliefs.
>don't forget you unironically thought
this is an anonymous forum, and you don't know the intricacies of my personal beliefs other than by my posts that can be reasonably inferred to belong to me. nowhere in those posts are religious beliefs exposited.
>>41354007
skeptics such as your self who have already made up your mind always make this logical mistake of false comparisons. we aren't discussing a parody you derived from your own imagination in order to draw a deceptively meaningful comparison, we are discussing a factual, historical event that did occur.

>>41354106
>we knew better than ancient times!
(You) didn't even have atmospheric flight when your "miracle" occured

Ok bro keep believing in flying rabbis and dancing suns lol

Nothing will convince you cult golems

>>41354153
i took the time to offer rebuttals to each of your points, but you only choose one of these in your response?
we *do* know better now than those in ancient times. we *do* know better now than those who lived in the early periods of the last century. prosaic explanations for the phenomenon in your example that were experienced by the ancients are reasonable and appropriate. the same can not be said for the event being discussed.

skeptics and the religious both agree in that it is explained. i'm simply proposing they're both wrong.

>>41354191
I don't have to rebutt anything when your argument boils down to

>a bunch of children and superstitious uneducated villagers said it happened so it must be true

get a grip on reality lmao. in another era you'd be getting your neighbors killed because you swear you saw them turn into a black cat (this actually happened for you christcucks)

whatever let me know when your virgin mary is gonna let people breastfeed from her again lmao

>>41354410
that is what anon said I can confirm.

thier are 3 reasons why OP is like this today

one is pick's related of course , but another one is the idea of the macro and micro.

>>41352009 (OP)
>What more proof could God give you?
Maybe appear to everyone simultaneously and not in a random field in Portugal?

>>41354522
what is macro and micro , well when you are discussing any type of mystery , their is an idea if the mistery is allready inside your understanding of the world or something that might be outside.

regardless of contradictions , it mostly more so has to do with precedent and what you take higher than granted. the way we have discovered reality ,our current cultural situation ,(maybe evil wizards), our confidence in our short legacy with only few leads for crazy bulshit and our unfounded lack of curiosity (blame boombers or something).

means that we assume that the macro HAS ALLREADY BEEN DISCOVERED. we already have the answers for all the bigger mysteries basically , and as such anything paranormal breaks the macro , why would you asume that something is a big mystery when something can be a little one.

add pic related's to this and this does seem to be a logical viewpoint.

*I meant to say skeptics anon.
"their are 3 reasons why skeptism anon is like this today.

>>41354564
but you might argue
> but skeptism anon could still be a civilised young man even with his principles
>didn't you say that macro worship is logical.

well the answer to this question is that skeptism anon is retarded.

>>41353929
No, Islam has no public miracles in modern times where thousands of people saw the same impossible or highly improbable thing. And again, you're arrogantly assuming you know better how the world should function than God. When was the last time you created a universe?

>>41353930
Yeah, your objection isn't actually that muh world is so terrible, it's that you don't want to submit yourself to God, even if you know he's all-loving and goodness in himself. You're arrogant and prideful.

>>41354594
>disingenuous
Islam claims to still get divine experiences to this day. A bunch of people escape a jinn here. A person receives a premonition there. Etc.

>you know better than god
Isn't that what you do whenever you pray lol

>created a universe
Prove it

If anyone has a spare ten hours and is really interested in this topic, the deepest of deep dives was written on it recently.
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/the-fatima-sun-miracle-much-more
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-fatima

In the end IIRC the author remained not fully satisfied with any of the proposed explanations, but, spoiler alert for my takeaway:

[spoiler] What most stood out to me is that a lot of people report very sun-miracle-esque visuals just from staring at the sun by themselves for a bit without damage (but please no one risk damage by staring at the sun), and a few report thinking even as children that those types of visuals were just what happened when you stare at the sun, so they were surprised to hear it described as a miracle. For me personally that by itself is about enough to convince me that no miraculous explanation is needed when you throw in a little social contagion, but then I already leaned that way pretty heavily due to not believing in things like Marian apparitions and especially eternal hell, which the child-seers claimed to have been given visions of. [/spoiler]

>>41354751
does /x/ not allow spoiler text :(

>>41354751
You can't convince me 40,000 people all had the same optical effect (I've started at the sun and never had anything like this) due to muh social contagion. They describe the sun swinging down towards the earth, shooting out multicolor rays, and there are also reports that pools of water that had formed due to rain were dried up. If these types of effects are so common from staring at the sun, why aren't there any other Miracles of the Sun (in a non-Christian context) in recorded history?

The person in this article basically just *assumes* there must be a naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon because he doesn't believe in miracles.

>>41355324
Why didn't the rest of the planet record this hmm?

Surely the sun having a seizure would be noticed

>>41355324
its what I am talking abou the macro anon.

sometimes I wonder if I am really on 4chan , my posts are invicible.

:(

>>41352653
words have meaning. saying things like "what is love to a god anyway?" doesn't really strengthen your argument.
>"even though god SEEMS violent and vengeful to us measly humans, that's not the case! we just can comprehend his version of godly love uwu."
whatever

>>41355433
It was a localized vision, not a literal phenomenon. That's why we didn't observe it on telescopes

>>41355587
>"even though god SEEMS violent and vengeful to us measly humans, that's not the case! we just can comprehend his version of godly love uwu."

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Finite amount of suffering can always be compensated for justly with eternal paradise.

>>41355598
>was a localized vision
Loooool the backpedal

First it was a miracle. Now it's just a local delusion

>>41353265
You're just another retard that doesn't read subtext well. The dude in the OT isn't even your God. How do so many of you miss this? The subtext of your entire religion is that there is actually a TRUE monad. The god of Abraham is the other dude. Thus the rules and laws and demand for worship and all that. Jesus explicitly calls those who worship that one the synagogue of Satan. If you're following commandments, congratulations, you're just a jew that doesn't get why the dude you worship demands these specific laws. You'd learn more about your actual God, unironically, by studying malevolent shit like Ars Goetia. At least then you'd realize exactly what kind of a being you have been fooled into thinking is your God by organized Christianity.

>>41353784
[fart sounds]

>>41355607
If you read my original post I said they

>see the sun fly towards the earth, turn multicolored, spin in place in a totally unexplainable way

So, no, it's not backtracking. Tens of thousands of people having the same vision is literally a miracle.

>>41355636
Go back to the 2nd century bro, Gnosticism is dead