Thread 41452295

Within the context of gnostic views, is the serpent in the garden viewed as a benevolent entity? Consider:
>The "God" in the old testament is the demiurge, who is imperfect, and this is reflected in the bible itself, with the OT God having a physical presence in the garden (Adam and Eve could hear him walking), making mistakes, regretting choices, even going so far as to describe himself as jealous and vengeful
>he creates an inherently imperfect world that hinges upon imperfect creatures following his orders (perfectly) to maintain any form of worldly consistency, even though he knows himself that this is impossible and the fall is inevitable
>he tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and says that they will die if they eat of it
Now hold on: if they eat of the apple they will allegedly die, and this does not happen when they first eat the apple; most would argue that this is because "death" here is a metaphorical death of the soul, or a prolonged death. But wait! There is a tree of life, which grants immortality, which God is also afraid of them eating. If Adam and Eve were not supposed to eat of the apple and were not granted access to the tree of life, that means they were, at some point, destined to die; otherwise eating from the tree of life would not have been an issue, and if having a soul implies knowledge of good and evil, then how could acquiring this knowledge lead to the death of the soul? So...
>a serpent shows up who is completely honest with Eve. He rightfully claims that if she eats the apple, she won't die, but she will have free will as God does
>God, on the other hand, is deceitful from the outset: he claims Eve will die from eating the fruit, puts it there anyway, and she does not die from it. He subsequently punishes imperfect creatures for being imperfect, and curses the serpent for telling the truth
So God lied, the serpent told the truth, and God punished the serpent for telling the truth.

(1/2)

(2/2)

What I also find interesting is that: for the serpent to know that the tree contained knowledge of good and evil, doesn't that imply that the serpent had that knowledge as well? It is also never explained why the serpent was able to communicate with Eve, or why it sought to influence Eve to begin with. All we can assume is that the serpent was not a simple snake, but something which was, or was under the control of, a higher power. Now most would say, "that was Satan!", but the text never confirms this, and why would taking the form of a physical creature even be necessary for the "God of this world" (ironically, how the bible describes Satan) to begin with?

Another interesting tidbit is that "serpent" is used interchangeably with both positive and negative connotations. Satan is called "that old serpent", yet Jesus himself instructs his apostles to be "wise as serpents" (so serpents are wise?).

Something else: when the israelites are bitten by venomous snakes, Moses makes a bronze serpent and... sets it on a pole, which heals them. The metaphor here is insane: snakes can be both good and bad, but the wounds of bad snakes are driven out by a snake set upon a pole. Jesus himself, who instructed his apostles to be wise as serpents, was one day set on a pole of his own and used for healing.

Is it possible that the snake in the garden was the true God, or even Jesus, giving Adam and Eve free will so they could realize their circumstances and escape their prison? Is the snake delivering a message to Eve, only to be trampled upon for telling the truth, not similar to Jesus being crucified for preaching the truth that most did not want to hear?

>>41452295 (OP)
Dude, you don't get it. Look at this picture you posted.
Do you not understand it yet? "Humanity" already existed before Adam and Eve.
Tang Dynasty Immortal Alchemists created the White Race through selective breeding. Adam and Eve repressent this race, kept inside an artificial pleasure garden. This was a world without strife or worry, as all their needs were met for. The story of genesis is told through their memory. When they were thrown out? That was really just their way of obfuscating what was too painful to remember. They weren't thrown out, they killed the masters and broke out, only to find that the life they had previously been living in the pleasure gardens was far superior to the one they were now faced with. FACTS. TRUTH. FACT!

>>41452295 (OP)

>which God is also afraid of them eating

Because he never did, that idiot. Never even came up with a clear conceptual design for it. A demiurge? Nah. Just another delusion. Just children lost in a dark forest (of mutual design). :)

>>41452295 (OP)
God good
Devil evil
Simple as

>>41452338
>"Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".
I dunno man, sounds old Yaldabaoth is a little worried about his conscious creations living forever and threatening his established hierarchy.

>>41452295 (OP)
They were only prevented from eating from the tree of life after being banished from the garden, so they could have been eating from it during their time in Eden.

>>41452334
>retarded chinks who killed themselves by drinking gold and mercury created white people, also who cares where the chinks came from amirite lmao
Cute.

>>41452363

We are our own creators. Always have been, always will be. But concern duly noted. I would not yet releast that upon an unsuspecting (and non-divergent) humanity just yet. It would be a mean trick otherwise. ^^

>>41452411
After escaping the garden of eden, the white people, naked brutes, but bred to have superior strength and cunning, quickly overwhelmed the civilized but decadent black europeans.

>>41452408
That's an interesting point actuallt, but the problems I see here are:
>it's purely an assumption, we're never told if they had access to it and all we know for certain is that God didn't want them eating it at one point or another
>God says Adam and Eve may eat of all the fruits of the garden, what's the point of having multiple food sources if not to sustain them?
The biggest issue I see here is that if the tree of life grants immortality, and they ate of it at any point prior, they would be immortal already. I guess you could say "well, the tree of knowledge removed immortality", but then that negates the entire purpose of immortality to begin with, which is to be incorruptible and everlasting. At best, it would be a very fickle system with a lot of leaps in logic and unexplained rules.

In time, memories of the pleasure garden of their past faded, turning into myths of Eden, Avalon, and the Isles of the Blessed. The Tang Dynasty Immortals had created them for the purpose of creating the "translucent heavenly being" described in ancient scrolls, as the manifest union between heaven and earth. The whites didn't know this, but they felt a yearning to recreate the environment of their birth, coming up with the concecpt of the holy grail, the bridge between heaven and earth and the sacred royal quest, which european royals still teach their children in secret, to create a heavenly paradise on earth, transfiguring the entire world into their lost eden.

>>41452509
Settle down Arthas

>>41452295 (OP)
Yeah, It's difficult to decide who to believe in, God or the Serpent (the Light Bringer). One causes harm through their inaction the other causes harm through their actions, one IS the light, the other brings light, Which is to be trusted? Which is the real truth?

>>41452472
>Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”
It's possible that the tree of life was required to sustain immortality which is an option, which makes you wonder if God ate from it too if that is the requirement to be like him.

In regards to whether the serpent is good. If the concept of good and evil are bound to the material world, then surely they are the creations of the demiurge? How would knowledge of them be a positive or negative thing?

>>41452584
I'd argue that the knowledge of good and evil aren't material at all, possibly the most immaterial thing. Even the one true God, being completely pure and good, is still aware of evil existing, and he purely immaterial so it would be impossible for these concepts to be grounded in materiality.

>>41452657
That's another argument in itself, and I disagree, good and evil and relative and very much material as they're tied to actions within this world.

>>41452584
>If the concept of good and evil are bound to the material world, then surely they are the creations of the demiurge? How would knowledge of them be a positive or negative thing?
Imagine you were kidnapped as a baby. You have no memory of this and the man who kidnapped you raises you as his own child in isolation out in the woods so you never know any better. Somewhere in the house is a library of books, and when you get old enough to read, your "dad" tells you:
>Son, you can read from any of the books in my library, but DO NOT read from "The Book of How To Figure Out You Were Kidnapped and Why It's Bad If You Were."
The Demiurge wanted humanity to remain ignorant to the full context of their situation, but the Tree of Knowledge gave them the ability to discern that.

>>41452509
Why don't the Chinese immortals do something about the demons who've parasitised the West
inb4 it's bad feng shui

Garden is obviously a psuedohistorical memory of preagricultural humans
>no farming, no civilization, walk around naked eat fruit

>“Why should we plant when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?”

>This remark is attributed to a !Kung (Ju/’hoansi) hunter‑gatherer of the Kalahari. It was recorded by the anthropologist Richard B

>>41452680
you are so totally stupid and clueless it's a waste of time talking to you.

look up population demographics. this world you inhabit is false. it is a transitory world. this society will not continue like this it is literally not possible when the average age only keeps growing.

>>41452699
>it is a transitory world. this society will not continue like this
but the same people are transitioning it from a better state of existence to a much worse one and will still be in control? all that changes is we're exterminated

>>41452676
Why was the tree even there do you think if it was a gateway to gnosis?

>>41452706
it's generational alchemy, it's not a video game.you can't just click stop.

no one can stop the transition. no one. nothing can be done to stop the process that has already started. it is out of the hands of any one individual to do anything.

>>41452716
can do will do

>>41452733
yes i am sure you will convince everyone to return to communal living and reverse a process that has been underways for centuries.

>>41452714
That's a very good question. My thought would be the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge were both things that the Demiurge used himself and he just had so much hubris he assumed he could just keep Adam and Eve away based on his command alone.

Things make a lot more sense when you realize that the heavenly world has a similar structure to earth but is completely spiritual. Sophia fucked up and created a retard who could only produce imperfect things, so he created a phony version of heaven rooted in the material that he could preside over as its God, using heaven as a blueprint for how its mechanisms would function, but since he can only produce imperfect things, the world was bound to fall into darkness. That's why he's so insistent on you worshipping him, gets angry when you don't, and then floods the earth and kills everybody when things get too fucked up for him to bear.

>>41452295 (OP)
>>41452297
Perhaps the snake is just the ego, and what is ego but pride and desire. Adam and Eve left the Garden of their own free will to go search for fulfillment on the corrupt earth, for what is peace but rest?

>>41452763
we will find a new solution, provided by God, which will likely involve a renegotiation with our haters who in truth are utterly dependent on us
God will make sure they don't wipe us out before they realise this

>>41452774
We need to destroy the tree of life to destroy the demiurge and free us from this material world

>>41452295 (OP)
I think we've lost too much context to know the full meaning of the story. It always seemed kind of whacky to me though that gnostics would have all these complaints about it not making sense to them, but choose to believe it in an inverted way rather than just dismissing it altogether if they're not happy with it.

>>41452835
no one is wiping you out. no evil sorceror is preventing people from having children. it's because they have no energy.
they live in an environment that saps their energy. there is no living chi flow from parents to child, the bonds are cut and people uprooted. the order of things, respect for elders and obligation towards the younger are gone, inverted even.
this is NOT something some fat overweight pimply jew in california can do anything about or is even fully cogniziant of.

No

>>41452887
imagine you have a goose that lays golden eggs
slowly you start to poison the goose
eventually you wonder why the fuck you are doing that

>>41452897
maybe don't see yourself as a goose, that is, livestock. unless you're really comitted to being a peasant. all i'm saying is you're thinknig there is someone who has the power to change things. there isn't.

>>41452903
that's the way they see us, they think they are super skilled extractors and manipulators when in reality we are just extremely naive, trusting and charitable
their bubble is already shrinking, eventually they have to go back and undo their work and beg us for protection

>>41452915
uh yes in your fantasy. in reality jews are very self-centered and quite naive and stupid, thinknig that everyone is as obsessed with them as they are with themselves.
white nationalists like yourself only ever enable this manner of thinking by making the jews your evil master whom you both hate and love in equal measure.
but if you listen to an actual rabbi speak you will think wow what a retard.

>>41452879
That and how could they trust a story that was apparently hand written by the le demiurge.

>>41452925
they literally gained 20iq mixing with us

>>41452879
Because it doesn't make sense when viewed through a classical lens.
>Heyyy guys I made you for no reason, have lots of fun but don't touch that tree haha, oh you did it ohhh nooo I love you so much I need to torture you for 6000 years now
Meanwhile, since gnosticism places priority upon knowledge, then the serpent could only be seen as a benefactor here. Add to that the strange circumstances of this snake being there to begin with and the myriad serpent symbology throughout the bible, and it starts to make plenty of sense.

I think the biggest issue with gnosticism is that, if not tempered, it can easily lead to evil. "All I gotta do is escape bro, so I'll just do anything I need to get the hidden knowledge, fuck everyone else". At the same time though, the basic doctrines make sense (again, they require tempering with love and faith to prevent corruption, which not all gnostics prioritize). I've yet to hear one compelling argument for how the God of the OT could possibly be the same God as NT, since he makes a pretty quick shift between total asshole and all-encompassing source of love and patience.

>>41452943
>I've yet to hear one compelling argument for how the God of the OT could possibly be the same God as NT
personal interpretation of the people living that due to differences between ane tribalism and life under the roman peace, it's like throwing a spear at someone vs a snowball, same mechanics

>>41452943
Also it does make sense in the Christian interpretation, to elaborate it for you, the point is that they fall (becoming mortal, thus that day they become fated to die) and are redeemed (thus live forever)
God told the truth, perhaps the Snake did too. God put it there along with both trees after all, maybe he only told them not to eat it so that they would be disobeying him in doing so.
In the "humanity before a&e" interpretation you can have Adam and Eve as the first humans with souls, and the fruit grants them an ego or something like that (which is also the source of death of the ego)
Really it's not clear

>>41452295 (OP)
Depends on religious/spiritual context, varying from tradition to tradition.
In my case, mythologically, the Serpent is evil, because society, goverment, clergy, Demiurge and such want you to be a good lapdog. So we choose, by certain practices, to embrace the demonic. We become demons.

>>41452997
>In my case, mythologically, the Serpent is evil, because society, goverment, clergy, Demiurge and such want you to be a good lapdog. So we choose, by certain practices, to embrace the demonic. We become demons.
this is how you get recruited into secret societies by the people who caused you all those problems to begin with

>>41452957
that's retarded man, i'm sorry

>>41453193
>how can the same thing that puts doves in the air also put B-32s there

>>41452297
>All we can assume is that the serpent was not a simple snake
If this is your starting point then you're a retard who misses the whole point of these passages. You're like the Christians who are Bible literalists and become atheists when they learn that the Earth isnt actually 6000 years old.
>something which was, or was under the control of, a higher power
That would be literally everything, if you were actually following the material. Yeah I guess it's easy to debunk if you fail to understand it in the first place.

>>41453221
>be retarded
>get mad
Word.

>>41453207
>how can the same thing that puts doves in the air also put B-32s there
It could be, but you would expect a little consistency, you know?

>>41453361
What's not consistent? Do you think God was ONLY on the side of the israelites and didn't appear to or help anyone else at that period?

>>41452295 (OP)
>who wrote the book of Genesis?
Genesis, up to Abram leaving Ur, was a retelling of the Sumerian creation story, heavily edited and abridged.
It only makes sense to those who blindly accept it, or theologians that accept it based on their belief. And that is intentional.
The original story of the creation of the first man - Adapa - by the Anunnaki was much more detailed. Knowing that the creation of humans by a team of advanced beings was a lengthy, difficult process with many failures, provides a clearer picture of why, in the Bible, Adam was so special to God.
Learning what Enki did with the earlier, failed versions of a created man speaks volumes of the nature of this godlike being, and why Adapa was so devoted to his creator.
>Enki gave the defective and crippled original specimens places of honor in his temple, the Abzu. He did not discard, nor destroy them.
When Adapa was summoned to visit the great father Anu, Enki instructed him to not eat or drink the foods of the gods, saying they would be poison. The foods of the gods would have granted Adapa immortality, which Enki did not want. And Adapa followed his lord's instruction, and remained mortal.
There were stages to the creation of man, including an era of sterile men, before woman was created, so that man could procreate.
The story of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil could be seen as when the consciousness of early man was raised from a lesser state, into self-awareness.
If the early man and woman, capable of procreation, were sent by Enki to other locations, to be shared with other Anunnaki, the story of the serpent could be seen as attempts by Enki's followers to enlighten humans maintained in a lower state of consciousness. Other Anunnaki, seeing the nature of their slave pets suddenly change, would be seen as disobedience.

>>41453381
>be OT "God"
>be vengeful, wrathful, destroy entire civilizations at the drop of a dime, incite your people to wage wars, demand sacrifices and tithing, speak directly to humans hundreds of times, and so on
>be NT God
>you pretty much fuck off completely, only speak 4 times in the entire book, but you send a messenger who preaches the exact opposite of vengefulness and wrathfulness, never hurt anyone, urges others not to hurt anyone, demands no petty physical sacrifices and outwardly expresses that giving to people in need from your heart is more important than paying tithes, among dozens of other differences in ideology
Hey, if you can connect the dots and tell me how these are the same entities then go for it. I would think it was kind of badass, actually. I'm just not seeing it, though. If I had to summon an argument, the best thing I could produce is something along the lines of "God had to be a strict parents to humans when they were still young, but softened up over time", but even that comes with loads of issues.

>>41452295 (OP)
Adam had bigger booba than Eve!

God is a dumb parent. He puts candy in front of us and says: "don't eat the candy". If you stop to think about it, this is reverse psychology. God wanted us to eat from that tree. If He did not want us to eat from that tree, why out it in the garden in the first place? Free will doesn't make sense, if that is your answer, because God doesn't respect free will. We can point out in the bible examples of God not respecting people's free will. So the crhstians will argue that God is all powerful and He can do whatever He wants so there will be times when He will intervene, but it's not like He is not respecting free will, He is just imposing His Will because He is God and that is alright, it is alrigjt to impose your will if you are God it seems. Anyway, so it seems like God did not want to intervene when the serpent was "deceiving" Eve. Maybe God is not all knowing like the dogma claims or God wanted all that happened. How come what God doesn't want happen? Is not He all powerful? How can things which God doesn't want to take place, take place? This means God is not in control of His creation. It's all a big mess. So we have more power in oour hands than God because God can't stop our actions.

>>41452295 (OP)
OT=Saturn
NT=Jupiter
Jesus represents a sage/guru that represents the transition from the old ways and satanism to the new ways that are anti satanism.
Satanists eat flesh and drink blood for enlightenment.
Christians eat their god which is amnita muscaria and drink his blood which is an intoxicating brew for enlightenment.
Adam=Adonis, Attis, Dumuzid ect. The Human Male
Eve=Aphrodite, Cyble, Inanna ect. The Planet Venus
The serpent in the context of the garden is an enlightened sage. Serpent comes from seraph meaning "burning". So it's referencing the Kundalini which is said to be female and symbolized as a snake. The fruit is the amnita muscaria and the tree is a pine tree. The amnita muscaria has to grow symbiotically with the pinetree roots. The mushroom and tree represent too the penis and the human body. You can die from eating around a dozen amnita muscarias. Ego death happens too depending on your spiritual development. Ultimately that scene represents man becoming androgenous. The question is why? The short answer is the worm is androgenous and forced humans into worshipping androgyny and taking up satanic practices to be like it. The only way to counter that would be to embrace the androgyny and reject cannibalism. What's the worm? Taniniver, Alu ect.
aka nematodes. That's the gist of it.