The super jacked heavyweights and super heavyweights clearly put a lot of time into strength training. Strength training is the best thing you can do for explosiveness. Feel free to debate me on this, but it's pretty obvious. Once you've mastered technique, the only thing going to give you an edge is further explosiveness. I am a noob at martial arts, so correct me if I'm wrong at this. I know cardiovascular potential is also important, and bigger guys technically have less of it, even if they do plenty of cardio.

Now, how much of an advantage would a 7'6, 500 pounds of lean mass giant who can deadlift 505 kilos raw as part of his warmup have against other opponents? He would look like something from DBZ. I imagine he wouldn't have to be nearly as skilled to be super successful.

Athleticism is the best martial art. Training your reflexes, cardio, flexibility, strength, etc., will give you the edge over more people than if you were just learning fighting technique.

>>216960
I've heard from several sources that actual skill in martial arts trumps everything else.

>>216961
Who do you think would win in a fight?
>Guy A: very fit but no knowledge of martial arts
>Guy B: knows a lot about martial arts but 0 fitness
Your answer is probably Guy A. It doesn't really matter if you are an amateur fighting an amateur or a pro fighting a pro, most fights are lost due to inferior fitness

>>216964
>most fights are lost due to inferior fitness
Proof?

Do you think some super huge athlete would've been able to beat this guy just because he's way bigger, stronger, and has more cardiovascular potential?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IUMuN7hH47Y

Martial arts is athleticism times technique. I have no evidence for this but the cap on technique is lower for an untrained individual than strength. An untrained man can lift around 70 kg while an elite lifter can lift 250 kg or more. A BJJ black belt is a purple belt with greater timing and precision.

>>216967
You think Sean O'Malley is unfit?

>>216998
He's skinny as hell.

>>217001
And you think that's all there is to fitness?

>>217002
He doesn't look like he does any exercise.

>>217003
>look like
Yeah

>>216960
top kek enjoy a cracked skull from being thrown on concrete

>>217004
If he actually exercised, he'd have more muscle than that. By the way, larger people, regardless of if they're larger due to more muscle or more fat, typically have inferior cardiovascular endurance to smaller people. Why do you think all those top marathon runners are underweight? Sean O'Malley is virtually underweight for his height, and he was underweight when he was a featherweight. If he fucking ate normally, he'd likely weigh somewhere between 140 and 150. That wouldn't even be from exercise, and most of that new weight would be in muscle.

>>217004
dont bother with him
it's obvious the guy doenst train whatsoever.
The cardio difference for fighting vs gym is so vast he would probably need to take a break at his first class

>>217007
He can't even eat enough to have a normal body weight for his height. How am I supposed to believe he actually does cardio, other than his MMA training?

>>217008
the type of cardio needed to fight can only be gained through fighting.
It's a completely different monster. If you trained you'd know this

>>217009
Just like how traditional strength training will increase the force of your strikes, proper cardio will increase your cardiovascular potential. You get the most adaptations from HIIT. You're not marathon running, so you don't need to do any slow steady state shit. I honestly don't even know any martial arts, but this is basic exercise science.

>>217014
if you dont know how to throw a punch your punch is gonna be weak
this is basic fighting knowledge

>>217015
Yes, but your argument is with cardio. There's no way in hell you're going to get anywhere near maximizing the stimulus needed to increase your cardiovascular potential from just martial arts.

>>217016
you're retarded and have no idea what you're talking about dude.
A lot of martial artists live to be incredibly old.

>>217008
why the fuck would him eating like a fatass pig trying to build muscle would help him in any way shape or form? that'll make weight cuts harder for him. + he's been very successful at BW, he'd get mauled at any other weight classes.

>>217462
>+ he's been very successful at BW, he'd get mauled at any other weight classes.
I'm wondering if his reach has anything to do with him performing so well. He's virtually underweight for his height in his current weight class.

>>217494
It's mostly the reach, there are only two other fighters in that division that are as tall as him and of them O'Malley has the longest wingspan
>underweight
I think he has stated somewhere that he walks around at 150+ and regains like 15lbs between weigh-in and the fight. So he's skinny but not Auschwitz mode and presumably mostly cuts water weight

Forget about weight, what if this heavyweight dude is ludicrously strong. Like, he can bench 600 and deadlift 900. How much of an advantage would he get for this extreme strength?
https://soundcloud.com/glwzbll-music/untitled-13-slowed-reverb

>>216967
Dricus.
Lacking in skill but he destroys everyone with stats.
>more strength
>more power
>more HP
>more stamina
Doesn't matter that Israel Adesanya was way more deft and skilled than him. All he needed was one powerful blow to dizzy Adesanya, then submit him.
Another example, Ngannou.
>insane power
>insane chin
Up until Stipe Miocic he coasted off his physical abilities. He would just brawl without a care in the world, case in point: Rozenstruik. Rozenstruik hit him with multiple countershots while dodging like 5 of his punches, but the moment 1 or 2 slipped through he was fucked. The skill gap didn't matter, Ngannou beat a seasoned kickboxing with what is tantamount to streetfighting.

>>216982
Basically.
There's a reason women don't fight men, and lightweights don't fight heavyweights.

>>220756
Less. Would be insane at grappling. The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration. So his punches might have some more acceleration, but ultimately being big and heavy is better because the acceleration decreases only a little bit, while the mass goes way up.

>>217494
Reach is another physical advantage. It's why the spear is the king of weapons in warfare, while the sword was simply a sidearm you took out if you broke your main weapon or the enemy got too close.

>>220772
>The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration.
If you're throwing strikes, the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees. They don't change in mass with bodyweight. They may correlate with height, though, and genetics will always play a role in how much mass they have. Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder. Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength. Think of the person who benches 225 as a one rep max VS the person who can bench 225 for 30. The person who can bench 225 for 30 pushes that weight up super fast like there's nothing in his hands.
>Force = Mass*Acceleration
Also, for striking, wouldn't the equation for kinetic energy make more sense? This is what's used to determine how powerful a firearm caliber is. The equation is KE = Mass*Velocity^2, so if you increase velocity by 20%, you increase KE by 44%, while if you increase mass by 20%, you just increase KE by 20%.

Mighty Mouse wouldn't beat Brock Lesnar. There are levels

>>220798
>the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees.
>They don't change in mass with bodyweight.
That's a fallacy. If you're throwing arm-punches or moving backwards while hitting they don't change much in mass.

Punches are thrown with your whole body twisting and leaning forward. That's why coaches will tell you to "sit down" on your punches. You're trying to leverage as much mass as possible so it isn't like a bug bite. Exception would be jabs where you try to score points, and distract to set up larger punches.

This principle is also why you only do ground and pound when you're in the top position. Gravity is helping you put your mass into your punches. If mass was irrelevant, and it was all about speed, people on the bottom would be able to strike with as much efficiency as people in mount or on top. Upkicking would be as devastating as stomping, but it isn't because mass is a key factor.
>KE = Mass*Velocity^2, so if you increase velocity by 20%, you increase KE by 44%
Well it's as I said here: >>220772
>ultimately being big and heavy is better because the acceleration decreases only a little bit, while the mass goes way up.
The acceleration does not increase to a great degree to the point it matters more than mass.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/who-are-the-fastest-fighters-in-mma.4279882/
Here they say Mighty Mouse, Dodson, and O'Malley are some of the fastest. Do they have the strongest punches?

>>220798
>Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder.
>Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength.
Honestly they will be but there will be diminishing returns. It correlates but some people are very strong and stiff, with slow movements. If I think about it more you're definitely more right than I suggested in the previous post, but not completely right.

The strikes could hit a decent amount harder, but speed has a limit in humans. You can't really be 2x faster than somebody, but you can be 2x stronger. So being stronger won't necessarily give you bullet-like punches. The difference in 100m sprint times between Usain Bolt and the fastest woman is around 10-12%. The difference in Bench Press between men and women, from what I remember, is around 30-50%. So while strength will make you faster and give you powerful punches, it won't make you insanely faster.
Pure mass and weight is still going to be a limiting factor.

If it was about swinging an axe, greatsword or a sledgehammer, I think your theoretical super-strength guy would be a lot more terrifying, but mass is just too important for hand-to-hand punching.

Who are your favorite fighters by the way?

>>220847
>Punches are thrown with your whole body twisting and leaning forward. That's why coaches will tell you to "sit down" on your punches. You're trying to leverage as much mass as possible so it isn't like a bug bite.
That whole technique is for the purpose of moving your fist as fast as possible. Strength is largely correlated with muscle mass, but still distinct. The fat tissue on your body isn't going to be doing anything to allow you to throw more energetic punches. Kinetic energy requires mass. The mass comes from your fist. That is the thing that strikes your opponent. The faster your fist is moving, the more energy is going to be behind it. If you're stronger, you're going to be more explosive, and if you're more explosive, you're strikes are going to have more velocity behind them, and you're strikes will be more energetic. I've heard that putting something heavy in your hand will give you much stronger strikes. This is because you're adding mass to your fist, and you're still able to accelerate it to roughly the same degree.

>>220847
>If mass was irrelevant, and it was all about speed, people on the bottom would be able to strike with as much efficiency as people in mount or on top. Upkicking would be as devastating as stomping, but it isn't because mass is a key factor.
When you're on the ground, your body can't just move back to absorb the blow slowly; it has to take everything all at once. If you stomp someone on the ground, his body isn't going to be moving back to absorb the strikes slowly; his body will be absorbing the strikes all at once and fully.

>>216958 (OP)
If the fight is long and the two fighters are fairly well matched- it is more likely muscular and cardiovascular endurance that will grant the edge to one over the other.

If one fighter has a large physical strength gap over the other fighter, the fight will likely end quickly with a higher potential of injury for the weaker opponent, but also the stronger opponent. Assuming their other physical characteristics are in the same ballpark.

Physical build also matters just as much as anything else, a small guy that is both muscular and fat is in a much better position to win especially if he has a good cardiovascular gas tank (which yes is possible, but soul crushing to achieve) because he actually has a mass advantage over an equal height and reach opponent. It is worth mentioning that technique and gas tank for the theoretical lean opponent can bridge this gap.

Height weight and reach advantage is a multiplier all by itself, and most experienced fighters don't get the chance to fight someone like that because they are exceedingly rare.

I have done Buhurt for 7 months and 6ft is normal sized for the sport, a big guy in Buhurt would be 7ft and up. We have one guy like that out of a team of 30. We are all bloatmaxxed, btw. This is a sport that overly attracts big, generally out of shape autistic guys that have the balls to actually fight in armor. For Buhurt, the fight ends depending on format, in Pro Fight format, ground and pound is legal for 10 seconds- and the fighters are reset. In melee, your fight ends when you make 3 points of contact with the ground- however that happens.

Our big guy maxes every slider on the scale save for gas tank and muscle, but he has built some muscle under his fat. He is much like a bear. I have fought him several times, I am 240 6'1 and it is a fucking nightmare to fight him in armor. I have been fighting longer than him and it makes no difference.

If my opponents body is heavier, I have to spend more energy to make it move- however my opponent also has to spend more energy to make it move. The problem is that my opponents body is more use to moving that weight, because it has to move that weight every day, and it's super use to moving that weight if my opponent actually lifts and does enough cardio.

If you're fighting an opponent that is well adapted to their frame and it's characteristics, you're going to be at a disadvantage- because what is every second of life to them is heavy to you. If you could move your smaller, skinnier frame as well as they move their bulkier and heavier frame, then the best possible build would be lean.

Any strength athlete will tell you that they get weaker on a cut, and it's more difficult to maintain strength on a cut. This is because a more muscular and fat person is always in a caloric surplus- so for them it's more about supplying the necessary energy for that bigger bulkier frame. There is also something known as momentum, and the heavier an object is, more energy is required to stop that momentum.

If someone is lean, then they in theory have less weight slowing them down and have a much greater potential to accelerate their movements. However, if they haven't built muscle on that lean frame and/or programmed that lean frame with progressive overload sufficiently- then they will be at a disadvantage in a fight because they aren't explosive enough.

So why don't fighters look like bodybuilders? Because the more muscle you add onto a frame and the more drugs you take, the harder it is on your other bodily systems. Those muscles need a tremendous amount of oxygen to run well and if you haven't built the heart and lungs necessary to support them, your bodybuilder fighter is going to gas out far too quickly and won't be able to get their body to move.

Take everything I just said and then look at the physique of your average UFC fighter.

>>216958 (OP)
>strength vs skill
Not really comparable because strength doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's all about "how many weapons you have". Skill is a weapon, as is strength. But so is height, weight, speed, durability, stamina, strategy, etc. Usually, when these strength vs skill debates show up, the strong guy is also taller, heavier, and tougher, so it's already 4 vs 1 in the strong guy's favor. And that's assuming that he is slow, stupid, and has no stamina, which might not be the case. Of course he wins! The only times the skilled guy wins is when he also outclasses his opponent in a few additional factors.

Foreman was a large guy who did strongman type training
Just look at how hard he hit. He will knock you out through your damn guard

>>227463
It's interesting you mention the concepts of durability and strategy, I do believe skill limits strategy, if you have no skill- what are the chances of you coming up with a decent strategy to defeat your opponent? Another interesting thing to consider is whether or not we should separate skills and experience? I think they are two different things, take kimbo slice for example. Certainly he was skilled in some ways, but he was more experienced than he was skilled, which outlines his later difficulties.

I think you can also be skilled and not experienced, it is the fusion of both skill and experience that produces impressive technique and the wisdom necessary to apply it when you need to.

Also how you talk about speed as if it is its own category. How does one train "speed"? I can only imagine that it is the minds proficiency in utilizing the mind muscle connection to execute movements as fast as possible, but how much of that is drilling skill and how much of that is natural innate mind muscle connection that is largely immutable? Sure there is the idea of doing something faster, but is it just efficiency of the movement and muscle memory being improved over time or could you always move that fast, just not with as much accuracy due to a lack of skill, or some bodily limitation, like weight or lack of explosive strength?

I think of durability more so as mental toughness to push through pain, unless bathing yourself in dog medicine and kicking trees with your shin counts as "durability training" which sounds dubious to me at best. Or punching sand, whatever it is. I know it's true that you can build up scar tissue and calcium deposits but is it actually making you more durable?

This is where we remember all the UFC fights where a leg kick gets checked and "well conditioned" shins snap in half against the thick part of the opponents knee.

The main advantage "height & reach" grant I guess is range and the potential to build a good stacked frame.

>>217006
O'Malley fights at 145 pounds. You are a babbling moron.

>>220824
Mighty Mouse has beaten HWs in jiu jitsu before, but i see your point. Outside of controlled competition that likely wouldnt be the case

>>227518
Sorry typo, meant to say 135

brock lesnar got pwnt by a less muscular spic though

>>227378
Bruce lee would fuck you and all your faggot buhurt buddies up big time.

General athleticism is more important than absolute strength. Being a natural freak that can run a 4 second 40 yard dash and has 50 inch vertical is different than being some bloatlord powerlifter gymcel. Guys that are naturally explosive, have good coordination, etc. those are the guys you gotta watch out for. Now if you combine that with size, you got something dangerous on your hands
If you've ever had a former D1 football player or someone like that come train in your gym you know what I'm talking about. But guys with that level of genetics are 1 in a 1000 and guys that actually make use of those genetics by training for something are even rarer probably.
Which kind of leads to the crux of the argument which is that the size disparity that would overcome a significant skill disparity is rare. Yes, if you pit some 6'7 athletic freak against a 5'2 elite level manlet, the big guy will stomp him regardless but differences like that are rare. A more likely scenario is a 5'10 guy vs some 6'3 lanklet and all of the sudden it's not such a big of a deal.
You even had a decent number of guys in the 5'8-5'9 range that did pretty well in Pride FC which was openweight (Randleman, Vovchanchyn, etc.) Conversely, you had giants that got stomped.
Size and strength matters a lot on the extremes of the bell curve, but there's a large swath in between where it's not really the deciding factor.

>>228620
Well some people are just built different, the thing about size and muscle mass though is that you can't really do anything about it. You pretty much just have to deal with it if you are fighting someone. It matters when you are grappling someone who can squat 500 lbs. There is a difference.

I've literally grappled a guy and he straight up lifted me into the air even though I'm like 250-260 some people are just not the same as other people.

That's kind of the spooky part of fighting, you don't know if the person your fighting is going to be a freak like that, where they have explosive strength that can just forklift your ass away. That shit matters, being able to do that in the first place matters big time. There is a large gap between people who can and cannot perform.

Some people are just naturally very strong, you give them a grip strength test and they will pull that fucker like they have been strongman training for 20 years, but they are just a fucking construction worker or some shit, or some know nothing trade or rancher or whatever. Some guys who work in warehouses are like that too, it just depends. Some people are just like that where they have a gift of strength from god.

Type 2 muscle fibers, fast twitch oriented. If you have a ton of type 2 fibers you are made of fucking steel cabling, that's what you're made of. It's fucked up, actually. Being really big does allow you to hang with these people though in a fight, because you are sufficiently big and heavy that you have more options open to you to take them on.

Even if you have an extremely explosive manlet, there is a point where it doesn't matter. Any athletic or strength advantage he has is at its limit against a 7 ft 400 lber. There is a certain point where size means you can simply be bear hugged and sat on and there ain't a god damn thing you can do about it. No matter how much you want to fantasize or train.

>>228601
How many people have you actually fought man, or do you just watch Kung Fu movies?

>>230868
>and they will pull that fucker like they have been strongman training for 20 years
Bullshit. Once you start taking something like strongman very seriously, you will max out your strength after likely around 6 years. After 20 years, you're already starting to get old.

>>230885
That really depends on when you start training for strongman. If you started when you were 16 or 17 then if you trained for 20 years you would be 36 or 37, which is a genetic prime point because of the way muscular hypertrophy and physical adaptations work. Assuming you were doing everything right the whole time with you diet, training, sleep, hydration, supplementation, etc etc which is unrealistic but possible to follow most of the time, then you would be at your maximum muscular hypertrophy and maximum power generation output.

Although there are different forms of fitness to train for so you will always have holes in your fitness due to the fact that opportunity cost very much so applies to training, if you don't train for muscular endurance- you're not gonna have as much of it, if you don't train specifically for strength- you're not gonna have as much of it. If you don't train specifically for hypertrophy, you're not going to build as much muscle.

For powerlifters, growth comes after strength
For bodybuilders, strength comes after growth

Speaking nothing of specific muscular chain strength, like how well your posterior chain connects, which helps drive bench to some degree
Or like how your entire lower body has to work in unison to balance a barbell squat
Erector spinae, core support, si stability, glutes and even hams to a certain degree for a deadlift, it all has to chain together

Like sure, you could try to do a well rounded program but there is always going to be something you neglected
Juji mufu proved that you could have good agility and flexibility as a bodybuilder- but Juji is on copious amounts of performance enhancing drugs

https://strongmanarchives.com/records.php?viewRec=5

20 of the 48 worlds strongest man winners were over the age of 30 and Zydrunas Savickas is the oldest worlds strongest man winner at 38 years old. Of course there are many guys on the list who have won multiple times, so there aren't 48 separate winners.

>>230928
>you would be 36 or 37, which is a genetic prime point because of the way muscular hypertrophy and physical adaptations work.
That's around the age strongmen typically retire. Your body can't handle gear as well by that age, and you're already showing signs of aging.

>>230929
Not a single winner of worlds strongest man is under the age of 24. A lot of people talk about the different brackets of aging, or when aging begins to hit people. Of course that depends on your particular genetics and the vast majority of worlds strongest man winners are fucking giants so we're already talking about athletes that are incredibly rare, they already have frames that are abnormally large and the ability to pack strength and avoid injury most of the time- and withstand ridiculous amounts of PED's these are already really rare athletes so we should take into account we are already looking at genetic abnormalities right off of the bat.

Most winners are from Great Britain or are White Americans and a disproportionate number of winners are Icelandic or Norwegian, even out of the British and American winners there is still probably a lot of Icelandic or Norwegian DNA in them in the first place.

But what I'm saying still holds true, if you had been training as soon as you conceivably start training for something like this your maximum capabilities would be in your 30s.

>>230930
>Not a single winner of worlds strongest man is under the age of 24.
Yeah, that's a young age. There are elite powerlifters in their late teens. There was a 17-year-old who sumo deadlifted 800 pounds. I believe there was also a 19-year-old who deadlifted over 900 pounds conventionally. I believe it's possible for a WSM who is in his early 20s. Doesn't matter, after 6 to 10 years of serious training, you pretty much have all of your gains. At that point, all you can really do is try to prime your nervous system to be able to lift really heavy on certain lifts, like dedicating a few months specifically to bench press or deadlift. You also have to consider that a lot of people wait until their mid 20s before they start taking gear. Most strength athletes retire in their mid 30s. There's no "muscle maturation" going on.

>>230929
Take a look at Zydrunas, he started training when he was 17 and he's won 4 fucking times and holds the spot of being the oldest worlds strongest man winner at age 38, like I said.
Zydrunas won first when he was 34, then again when he was 35, then again when he was 37 and then for a final 4th time when he was 38.

His most youthful win was when he was 34 and he began training at 17, I'm not basing everything I'm saying just off of Zydrunas but he is the perfect example of what I'm talking about.

The elephant in the room being that if you looked at his physiology under a microscope and autopsied him you would be reasonable in assuming that he's not the same species as the rest of us.

>>230931
It's not muscle maturation, its the body continually being able to adapt and grow and gain strength over time, not just in the muscles but also in bones, ligaments, tendons, etc. PED's allow you to continue beyond a normal point of being "old" and causes permanent physiological changes to these bodily systems over time.

>>216958 (OP)
>7'6, 500 pounds of lean mass giant who can deadlift 505 kilos raw as part of his warmup have against other opponents?

265 is the Unified Rules MMA HW limit retard.

In any case:

Gerard Gordeau vs. Teila Tuli. 200lb difference, lighter fighter won

Bob Sapp vs Nogueira: 100lb difference, lighter fighter won

Emmanuel Yarbrough vs Daiju Takase: 400lb difference, lighter fighter won.

In those cases it was 2 submissions and a vital strike (kicked in the eye). Neither which exercising and being jacked would made a difference.

>>216958 (OP)
You become stiff if you lift a lot without plyometrics and agility drills, this is facts.

>>231184
I try to go full ROM with a ton of exercises, and this itself can maintain and even give you a ton of flexibility. You could also just mix in some static stretching to really increase your flexibility.