I think it's interesting to look back on how much things Toriyama wrote that would be decimated if they were written in the current years.

>>279629850 (OP)
Trunks and time travel
Even to this day it's the most contrived thing Toriyama has ever written
Board though would be making memes about Goku not taking the medicine for reasons though

>>279629850 (OP)
Gohan fucking up against Buu would tear this board a new one in many ways. Many threads making fun of Gohan, rivers of salt at Gohan being decimated after all the build up, Gohanfags getting mercilessly bullied off the internet, etc.

>>279629850 (OP)
Chi Chi's first appearance in the lewdest outfit a loli has ever worn

>>279629850 (OP)
I still think the Super Mystic Water is a load of bullshit, they do the traditional “your efforts and determination to get the water have made you stronger” only to then go “hey there’s also this poison that can kill you but if you live you get a power up.” Having them both be mystic water is kind of bullshit, I would have preferred a more arduous task or item.

>>279629850 (OP)
Trunks killing Frieza and android 18 punking Vegeta would cause meltdowns

>>279630381
>there is no such thing as magic power up water
>okay actually there is lol

>>279630381
At the same time, there is the Tenshinhan learning Mafuba plotline that leads nowhere. The anime tried to salvage both this and the sacred water.

>There is another building above Korrin's Tower

does Dragon Ball Daima keep that eery Namek-esque feeling to it during the entrie run of the new show or just for a few Demon Realm episodes?
and for how many episodes?

>keep in mind that i've never watched DBS on purpose, so please keep it to zero references from that
>DBGT refs are fine tho

>>279631081
This one was actually kino, especially with tying both Dragon Balls and Nyoibo to it.

cuckjita crying against frieza
cuckjita getting humiliated by android 18

>>279631287
Not really, it's more like a JRPG thing with mechanics and such

Bulma and Vegeta banging
Goku tossing Cell the sensu bean

>>279631349
Why did grandpa Gohan have the anchor of god's lookout, anyway?

>>279631784
Didn't he climb the tower as well and take the thing?

>>279631942
He didn't. Kame-sennin did. Karin just figured he was worthy of it. Then the old man handed it to Gohan. It's the kind of world building that's obviously a last minute addition but fits smoothly.

>>279629850 (OP)
modern /a/ would hate dragon ball from the get go because Bulma being violent, crass, greedy, and shallow is played for laughs instead of setting up her comeuppance
just constant seething threads of "why hasn't goku stoned her to death yet?"

>>279631784
Roshi just accumulates mystic artifacts he largely has no use for and gives them away as gifts to anyone he feels gratitute towards. He was originally going to give Goku his pet pheonix until he learned it had died, and then just gave him the kinto'un instead since he also just had it laying around

>>279629890
>from the future
>son of two characters who haven't shown romantic interest
>one of which already has a boyfriend
>can turn super saiyan back when it was unheard of
still one of the coolest characters but holy shit he feels plucked straight out of the stupidest fanfic possible

>>279629850 (OP)
This would break so many minds both before and after the reveal.

>>279632405
I did enjoy the gag of the phoenix of immortality dying from food poisoning.

Goku getting stronger form the Ultra Divine Water
Yamcha dying to the Saibamen
Gohan's rage boosts putting him on the level of much stronger characters, especially when he pushed back Third Form Frieza
Gohan being picked to fight Cell despite having zero relevance in the Android saga
The attempt to return to a Gag manga pre Buu.
The constant swapping of who was going to stop Buu

Given how obnoxious today's audience are about cucking, Trunks revealing that Bulma is his mother and Vegeta his father.

Vegeta becoming stronger than the Ginyu force because he made a fake moon

All the Zenkai amps on Namek except for Vegeta's post Zarbon Amp.
I mean Vegeta after Recoome went straight to 500k given he could stand against First form Frieza, then went to 2 million from Krillin shooting him.
Then we have Goku hitting 3 million from 90k from his wounds from Ginyu using his body.

>>279633306
it's funny how gohan's attack that managed to hurt Raditz would have completely exploded King Piccolo

>>279629850 (OP)
Goku giving Cell a Senzu.

>>279633569
Came here to post this

>>279633569
it's funny how everyone gives Josuke from Jojo a free pass for doing the same thing just because it didn't blow up in his face

>>279632926
That's an alien reference you dunce

>>279633565
It would have exploded Piccolo Jr in the 23rd Budokai

>>279633306
Yamcha was always a jobber in dragon ball, people wouldn’t be outraged. Yamcha’s death here is actually quite brave since he chose to fight in Krillin’s place because if Krillin died, he wouldn’t be able to be brought back again. People a

>>279633684
Anon got hit by a Saibaman...

if anything /a/fags would be outrages at Yamcha's continual existence by default
>Who invited this loser? Lol he thinks he's part of the time
>G-g-g-guys I can do a kamehameha too *jobs*
>WHY THE FUCK DOES HE GET TO DATE BULMA? IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MEEEEEE
>Yamcha got one broken leg and gave up. Goku just had three of his limbs broken and he's still like "I didn't hear no bell."
>I hope the next arc begins with the villains just killing yamcha instantly and nobody bothers to revive him
>Wolf Fang Flop

>>279632704
If I was Yamcha I’d kill Bulma there and then

>Goku comes back to earth and sees Krillin again who died in front of him against Frieza
>they don’t share a single moment or personally acknowledge one another during the reunion
I don’t need a sentimental hug or some shit, but you two are best friends and Krillin’s death did trigger the super saiyan transformation. I think there’d be a lot more criticism of how separated Goku and the OG gang feel, they don’t act like close friends at all

>>279629890
>Bulma had a one night stand with an alien from the same planet as Goku, and their son traveled back in time to warn the heroes of the apocalypse which would be caused by Red Ribbon Army androids.
Imagine telling someone this before Z even began.

>>279630342
There were tons of bikini warrior girls at the time, and Chi Chi's entire thing was poking fun at them.

>>279629850 (OP)
Could you imagine if this chapter came out now?
With the internet as it is today?
Vegeta would never recover. He already gets shit for being a jobber, but how many shonens have the jobber fucking cry when he jobs?

>>279634053
>Said alien by the way was responsible for the deaths of several long time friends and allies of Goku including Yamcha.

>>279634131
>He killed Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, Piccolo Jr...
>Piccolo Jr is a good guy now, by the way
>They had to go to Kami and Piccolo's home planet in order to...
>Yeah, they're aliens.
>Anyway, they went to Kami and Piccolo's home planet to get the original Dragon Balls.

>>279634169
>And while there everyone got unironically 10x stronger bare minimum

>>279629850 (OP)
The Goku alien reveal would be hated and seen as shit writing and every youtuber would make countless videos about it. There would few but diehard apologists for it saying "Toriyama foreshadowed it from the very beginning and this was all planned!". After the Super Saiyan reveal and Namek people would come to love it.
Super Saiyan would break the internet harder than Ultra Instinct did
People would be pissed at the entire Cell Arc and calling it out as the fanfic it really is.
The entirety of the Buu Arc would cause intense seethe from everyone. The countless shifting of the plot and the carousel of villains would not go over well and they would complain on how it's dragging. There would be a lot more fans of late introduced characters like Goten.
The Cell and Buu Arcs would be a lot more hated if they weren't grandfathered in to grace by being so old.

>>279634131
That fact got Bulma very horny

>>279634550
>Toriyama foreshadowed it from the very beginning and this was all planned!"
No one would say this, Toriyama was upfront about making shit up as he went along. I doubt most people would hate the reveal, no one hated it when it when they first read or watched it. Goku was always an abnormal kid, him being an alien isn’t that weird. He can already transform into a monkey

>>279633684
yes, this got overmemed

>>279629850 (OP)
During the androids saga, after Trunks tells them what's going to happen and Krillin suggesting using the dragon balls to find Gero but Bejita goes nuclear about wanting to fight the murder robots and how he's going to kill everyone if they use the dragon balls for that while Goku gets all philosophical about how Gero haven't done anything wrong yet so it's morally incorrect to stop him early on

>>279634794
People would call it an assupull or shit writing or garbage retcon. There would be no end to the complaining at first.

>Shenron can revive people from the dead and alter reality but is still somehow weaker than motherfucking Nappa
>Dende magically makes shenron stronger by scrapping the limit on how many times someone can be revived. For some reason Kami couldn’t do this
>Piccolo fusing with old Kami who’s weaker than raditz somehow makes him strong enough to match 17

Dragon ball like JoJo gets a pass for a lot of its asspulls because rule of cool and good art. The spectacle sometimes can overcome the bullshit. There’s also the nostalgia element when it comes dragon ball with the anime

>>279635076
>Shenron can revive people from the dead and alter reality but is still somehow weaker than motherfucking Nappa
You're smarter than a computer, but can you do 837498*289832?
Shenron is the computer. He does the magic shit.
>Dende magically makes shenron stronger by scrapping the limit on how many times someone can be revived. For some reason Kami couldn’t do this
Dende lived all his life with fellow Namekians and Dragon clan members. He knows more about Dragon Balls than Kami. In fact, the Namekian Dragon Balls were more powerful, Dende just made it similar.
>Piccolo fusing with old Kami who’s weaker than raditz somehow makes him strong enough to match 17
Foreshadowed long ago. Nail was already pretty strong. And the Piccolo that fused with Kami was almost as strong as a Super Saiyan. It wasn't about fusing their powerlevels anyway, but reuniting as one.

>>279634081
in a sexy way that /a/ would have freaked out over

>>279629850 (OP)
The Yamcha fallout easily. If 4chan existed back in the 90s, it would be awful. It would just be shitposting of the highest order. Trunks is lucky lucky to exist before the social media era and DB having nostalgia factor otherwise people would shit on him for being every DB fanboy's badly written fanfic character. His appearance and Bulma getting porked by Vegeta would legit break the internet today and forever destroy /a/ in ways /dbs/ could only dream of.

>>279635255
>The Yamcha fallout easily
wrong, if anything the Yamcha mocking would be bigger if people saw how big of a loser he was already before his death.
Hell both of his BT tournament participations were pathetic and all his somewhat cool moments are anime fillers.

>>279635076
>Piccolo fusing with old Kami who’s weaker than raditz somehow makes him strong enough to match 17
that's just typical 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts' which always applies to fusions in basically all anime, with an added layer of 'both kami and piccolo were fundamentally incomplete beings'
What is really dumb is when GT tried to pull the same trick with Majuub despite it being an explicit point in Z that kid buu all on his own was a complete being and Mr Buu was the remnants of Fat Kai and the other beings that Kid Buu had absorbed so long ago they could no longer be returned to their original form, which had really just been diluting the true 'pure' Majin Buu aka Kid Buu.

>>279629850 (OP)
Helping Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza...

>>279633544
>Goku hitting 3 million from 90k from his wounds from Ginyu using his body
The 100k or so he flashed at Ginyu was his own power. Against Freeza he was running 10x kaioken or higher the entire time. So it's more like the zenkai only brought him up to 150k or whatever

>>279635666
>filename
Piccolo wanted to conquer the world. Goku had great reasons to spare him and it was put around the Dragon Balls and hope, meaning "we're confident we'll handle everything that comes next and we're not afraid of letting the challenge come up again - we're certainly not going to let go of the hope that kickstarted our journey to remove that"
>Vegeta
Very different.
>Freeza
Very different, too.

>>279635076
It's not that Kami couldn't, he decided the balls needed limits to prevent humans becoming over-reliant. He was able to alter the restrictions to his will whenever (like when he decides to reset the cooldown one time), he just didn't want to.

>>279629890
Trunks was the first Coldsteel the Hedgehog

>>279635677
I think you're misremembering Goku's KK usage against Frieza because of what King Kai said. Plus he had to be 3 million in base to get to 150 million with Super Sayain.

>>279634131
>including Yamcha
This fact matters to nobody, not even in universe. Gokek would kill his own wife if it meant that he could fight a stronger opponent.

Cell bros, what is this

>>279629850 (OP)
If it was released today no one would be able to take it seriously because of the character names.
It's like if an American comic had a main character called Paul Bunyan, and the whole rest of the cast was named like
>Mac-n-Cheese
>Poutine
>Fajita
>Jockstrap
>Cocacola
>Trombone
and it tried to present itself as a serious battle story.

>>279636679
source??

The androids reconnects
>Introduces 19 and 20
>His former editor call him laughing at those old farts being the main antagonists
>Despite previously Trunks saying specifically that android 19 and 20 were the ones currently in the future he suddenly explains that it's actually android 17 and 18
The only save from the decimate would be 18 being hot

>>279636730
It works for Jojo. You have someone called Vanilla Ice being one of the deadliest villains in the manga.

>>279637006
Retcon, you mean Retcon.

>>279636730
>It's like if an American comic had a main character called Paul Bunyan, and the whole rest of the cast was named like
>>Mac-n-Cheese
>>Poutine
>>Fajita
>>Jockstrap
>>Cocacola
>>Trombone
>and it tried to present itself as a serious battle story.
If such a work emerged prior to 2012, burgers would eat it right up

>>279637003
Boku no Pico

>>279633586
Yeah we KNOW, that's people make fun of that because its only a coincidence but some treat it as Toriyama being a 4d chess player.

>>279629890
>Board though would be making memes about Goku not taking the medicine for reasons though
I still don't understand how the fuck this became a rhing
Did ocean dub or something call it a vaccine or do people really fucking not understand the difference between medicine and a vaccine because

>>279629850 (OP)
anons who read dragonball would infest every thread complaining about the alien retcons.

>>279641518
>Did ocean dub or something call it a vaccine
Yes, actually

>>279630187
>I CAN SEE THE FUTURE
>GOHAN BECAME THE STRONGEST GUY AND STILL DOESN'T DO CRAP

The leaks of this page would make half of 4chan unusable for the whole day and then the entire site once he jobs

>>279642833
It's funny that this "side character randomly appears to do something and then job to the main antagonist" thing happens probably 15 times during the Sukuna fight in JJK and it still made everyone made each time

>>279643524
*mad
not made. fucking stupid nigger keyboard

Plenty of people would complain about saiyan wank and Piccolo turning into a comedic babysitter

I think Super Saiyan might've been less loved if the super state built up all this time was visually just a hair change, but that's a big assumption that ignores how much shonen would change without Super Saiyan.

>>279633306
>The attempt to return to a Gag manga pre Buu.
That's what people on the usenet complained about. That and Gohan becoming the protagonist and the Saiyaman stuff.

>>279633585
And the senzu bean didnt blew up in goku's face either.
Cell wasnt hurt or tired at all from his fight with goku, all it did was to insult cell and to make him focus on gohan as cell didnt even wanted to fight him.
Goku was correct in his plan it was gohan who fucked with his "pacifist" bullcrap that comes out of nowhere.

>>279633888
>Yamcha got one broken leg and gave up
This literally never happened?

>>279629850 (OP)
I love this soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWwabnKcQaA
Dragonball and Dragonball Z had good 80s/90s OST.

>>279635552
>Hell both of his BT tournament participations were pathetic and all his somewhat cool moments are anime fillers.
That's just wrong unless you think winning fights is the only way to look cool.

>>279644803
Against Tien.

>>279630381
>>279630963
>they do the traditional “your efforts and determination to get the water have made you stronger”
It's bad enough they completely subverts this. But for me, this is still the thing that makes me the maddest about DB. The beginning of the end. I think the on the spot power creep and plot devices around Namek can get kind of egregious. But something about Ten Shin Han being shown killing himself learning the mafuba, with real training and effort, only for Goku to drink a super potion water which we are told hurts a lot but will make him super strong... something about that is absolutely cheap and dishonest to me. If Dragon Ball ever was about training and growing stronger, it completely spits on it. Just awful.

>>279645530
Yamcha didn't give up. He was KO'd then Tien broke his leg for the lulz when landing.

>>279645530
Yamcha participated in the very next Tenkaichi Budokai.

>>279645594
Fortunately it wasn't much about that. Goku learns the Kamehameha just by watching it, the training with Roshi is just physical stuff and for martial arts he goes
>lol just wing it
etc. That being said you still would have people exploding because of the whole
>the water is just water
>oops, there WAS a super water all along
thing.

>>279645594
In fairness, the water also almost killed him. So it's not like he didn't earn it in a way. I guess the big issue here was that due to the immediate stakes, Goku couldn't take a week off to train like he did with Mercenary Tao.

It's not like with Gohan who gets stronger by being touched by an old man. Twice.

>>279645688
Toei wasn’t perfect but they did a lot for Gohan’s character because in the manga he’s more of a glorified plot device. The anime gave him a lot more screentime

Something about the power-ups introduced during the Buu arc not doing the job one after another would probably destroy people. Like Yhwach destroying Ichigo's Bankai but for a different reason since instead of Buu being OP (well, his absorption and chocolate beam that no diff people regardless of power level are) it's the characters being retards.

>>279633544
>except for Vegeta's post Zarbon Amp
Isn't that the worst one?

>lose against a guy
>instantly win against a guy because you lost against said guy
>Frieza doesn't even bother guarding Vegeta's pod, even though by this point they know of zenkai

It's absolutely retarded from a narrative standpoint and completely unearned and contrived, Zarbon and Frieza get hit with such a poweful wave of Plot Induced Stupidity for this moment to work, I consider it one of Namek's worst plot beats.

>>279645654
>>279645688
>I guess the big issue here was that due to the immediate stakes
Yeah, again, this problem rears its ugly head in Namek a lot. There's no time to train or do anything, peak Toriyama "flying by the seat of his pants". I guess I've always been bothered by it because Tien just like, forgets the pot, or it breaks, or some stupid shit like that. It's like a joke, it's the moment you really know no one else but Goku is ever really gonna matter. Even though Krillin got pretty damn close to him for a weakling, just by training with Muten Roshi. It just rubs me the wrong way a lot.

>>279645733
He gets more screentime, but he also doesn't really earn his power-ups. While most of the core cast tends to get by on talent, they also put in a lot of effort to get to where they are. Gohan

>Was born better than everyone else and mostly just gets by on raw talent
>Received a free power-up from Guru
>Slacked off for seven fucking years and is still becomes stronger than everyone because and old man danced for 24 hours

It's bizarre how that last part doesn't upset more people. Gohan slacked on his training for SEVEN FUCKING YEARS and still zips past Goku and Vegeta purely by sitting on his ass for a day. He's the only character who keeps getting rewarded for his laziness and it's infuriating.

>>279645771
The problem is when bad things are happening right this instant, it's hard to really justify taking time off to train. This is why Toriyama invented nonsense like zenkai boosts and the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Back in the old days, Goku could take all the time he needed to train because the only thing he really had to deal with was an annual tournament. Sure the Red Ribbon Army was around, but they were more of a slow burn threat. Then Piccolo showed up and changed everything. Now there were real stakes and hard time limits. You can't really justify having the main villain sit around and wait for the main characters to get stronger, at least not regularly. Cell was willing to do that, but why should Freeza?

>>279629850 (OP)
tourist

Surprised no one has mentioned Goten and kid Trunks. Goten in particular is a nothing character that’s only there for kid goku nostalgia. The two of get super saiyan younger than Gohan and Toriyama even pokes fun at it

I do think it's rather fitting how Gohan tends to fuck up so much though. Because Gohan just gets handed power-ups left and right, even though he's the strongest character, he has like no combat wisdom whatsoever, so he keeps making terrible judgment calls and gets blindsided because he has absolutely no capacity to predict what his opponents are gonna do.

>>279645733
gohan hunting dinosaurs in filler was nice worldbuilding

>>279646006
And now, show the unique IP and how much of this is actually just the same people replying to themselves.

>>279645910
>Cell was willing to do that, but why should Freeza?
He still did?? And Vegeta. And the Ginyu squad, specially the Ginyu squad. If those motherfuckers had lifted a single finger instead of taking turns and playing with people who were like MICROBES to them, there would be no Namek plot. Not even Goku coming against all of them would have stopped them. Frieza and Vegeta basically sat on their asses because they were too proud and had to leave it to their underlings which is conveniently their character (both Vegeta and Frieza do this in a row), it really still happens anon, it's worst of both worlds. I can forgive Vegeta because not only is the action a lot better and make more sense, but I can't forgive Frieza cuz it's the same shit for the second time. Longer and more drawn out. With way more contrivances and crap.

So if Toriyama can't stop making the bad guys super retard strong, why not stop justifying it with cold hard numbers? Instead he gives them retard brains to go with their retard strentgh. Tori really dug his own grave.

>>279646125
He does hunt a single dinosaur in the manga, he knocks it out and cuts parts of his tail, I asume in the manga he does more than just that one?

>>279633996
King Kai probably could've told him that Krillin was revived through telepathy.

Zenkai boosts are the worst asspull in shonen, worse than anything in JoJo and even Hashirama cells. What makes them even more infuriating is that Toriyama randomly brings them back when Cell commits suicide even though they were non existent throughout the android/Cell saga. Vegeta doesn’t get one after 18 beats him. Also has you wondering how saiyans didn’t abuse this cheat ability through their history
>muh pride
Pretty weak excuse since Vegeta let Krillin injure him on purpose.

>>279646239
He only used powerlevels for Vegeta and Namek. Granted, the Namek arc was pretty long, but it only really became relevant for Goku and Freeza in specific. In fact, no one even has scouters anymore once Freeza starts fighting.

>>279646006
>replies
>less than 8000

>>279646239
It could've been canon, I don't actually remember.

>>279646280
Zenkai boost exists primarily to justify Vegeta's constant power boosts throughout Namek. He still got fucked by Freeza despite abusing the shit out of it.

I guess it does also explain why Goku went from being a little stronger than Ginyu to being able to keep up with Freeza. Granted, Freeza wasn't going out, but even Freeza's first form was like 6 times stronger than Ginyu.

Not in reaction, but it's been on my mind for over a year now, ever since reading Dragon Ball for the first time in Japanese. I always knew that Goku was based on Son Wukong and Journey to the East, but until reading his name in Japanese, 孫悟空, I never knew that his name literally was Son Wukong, and the only reason we call him Goku is because translators left it as such. (To clarify, Goku is just how one would read Wukong in Japanese, the Monkey King's name in Japanese is just Son Goku because that's how you'd read the characters, a lot of Chinese folklore names have this, where the Japanese name is different based on character reading differences.)

I'm curious as to how many anons know this, but moreso how many anons wish his name got properly translated? It's hard to separate Goku from Goku, but I do think it's a massive shame that English speakers have the disconnect from the Monkey King when Goku is just an iteration of him, down to the exact name.

Would /a/ have taken kindly to Yajirobe's cheap shots? I still think they're great.

>>279644708
Yes, people are retarded and can't actually read
Fucking memesters

>Goku was correct in his plan it was gohan who fucked with his "pacifist" bullcrap that comes out of nowhere.
Read the scene again. He was physically unable to get his strength out on command (even then, he was on the verge of exploding even before 16)

>>279645910
Zenkai is fine on Namek because the stakes are so high it's part of the dramatic tension. If they get one, it's a breakthrough. Or maybe the other way around, Vegeta gets one and they're fucked.

>>279645688
Yes, the Oozaru themeing goes a long way to make the water more palatable. It's more that it unlocked dormant power than just a powerup, which is the same in essence but aesthetically different.

>>279646896
One time after all Goku and co put him thru would have been fine but the Zarbon one is really anticlimactic and by the time Vegeta is like "hey here's the plan: put a hole in me chest and activate my special ability", Zenkai's already a punchline.

>>279645758
>it's the characters being retards
It's more that Buu just wont fucking die. The biggest example of the characters being retarded is Gohan giving Buu enough time to blow himself up instead of killing him but it can be chalked to talking being a free action and stuff.

>>279646973
>the Zarbon one is really anticlimactic
I really like this one because Vegeta blindsides Zarbon with it and gets his salty runback. Also it doesn't make Vegeta overpowered, he still has to outsmart Zarbon
>and by the time Vegeta is like "hey here's the plan: put a hole in me chest and activate my special ability", Zenkai's already a punchline
It is, but it's not effective so... eh why not

>>279646999
I don't know, it's never sat well with me cuz it's when you as a reader know, Toriyama has no time for making this stuff organic, and Frieza has to be written into a complete shmuck for it to work.

>It is, but it's not effective so... eh why not
Yep. It's why I said it's a punchline lmao

>>279646239
>I can't forgive Frieza cuz it's the same shit for the second time
Counterargument: there weren't actually that many instances where Freeza could have done many things himself that would have benefited him, from his perspective.
Yeah, we know that if Freeza gets off his chair and kills Krillin and Gohan on their first meeting the arc might be over (is it?). But Freeza doesn't, for him they're an oddity but he already let his army handle hundreds of people on this planet.

After that he stays at his ship, guards the balls and... well he can't do much else. He sends the Ginyus to get Vegeta while he gets the balls, and... he gets them. Then he goes to ask the last remaining Namekians for the password while leaving Ginyu to guard the balls.

None of that is particularly unreasonable. The times where he would have gained from getting off his chair and catching our guys were... well only the first time with Krillin and Gohan, and he had no reason to believe Dodoria would fail.

>>279647076
>Frieza has to be written into a complete shmuck for it to work
I don't really see how. The zenkais the heroes get are pretty much outside of Freeza's influence. See >>279647086

Freeza wants the wish. What he did might not have been 100% optimal and efficient, but it's not completely stupid either. Read any Naruto chapter and you'll find tons of characters doing things far worse than Freeza when it comes to managing their situations. So I say it's perfectly fine for a kung fu manga that lives in the moment.

>Yep. It's why I said it's a punchline lmao
It's a bit more. There's the Dende scene where he refuses to heal Vegeta (honestly underrated one, probably because it's short) and it's a good way to show Vegeta using the last extreme resorts he has. Of course if you sit down and start thinking about it mechanically and dissect it with your Internet buds, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that these Zenkais sure are convenient and can be hacked when you have a healer on hand, unlimited power! But in the context of reading Dragon Ball and taking it on its own terms, you should be able to suspend your attempts at hacking the system for a moment and accept that it's like that and there's no more hackery or powerups in sight.

>>279647216
I like when he punches dende for it later lol

>>279646491
I also sort of got the sense that zenkai boosts have diminishing returns. Goku seemed less reliant on it, so when it did happen, the boosts he got were seemingly many times greater.

>>279647298
Well I just rewatched it I meant kicked

>>279647322
You can just say zenkai stopped after Super Saiyan for some arbitrary biological reason but the real reason is that it's not what the manga is about

>>279634107
Is this story actually better suited for a manga medium instead of an anime?

>>279645771
>I guess I've always been bothered by it because Tien just like, forgets the pot, or it breaks, or some stupid shit like that.
The pot jams right when he finishes his training and he only notices it right before dropping downt to face Piccolo, so he just goes anyway without it.

The anime handles this much better. Tenshinhan puts up a better fight against Drum, and while he's briefly out of battle he uses the Mafuba against Piccolo, but then Drum gets in the way and THEN the pot breaks, and now Tenshinhan is too tired and gets easily beaten by Drum. Then Goku arrives.

>>279647612
Vastly, yes.
I could just post one of the many fight sequences that show Toriyama's masterful use of paneling and 3d fights. In fact I will.

But I'll also add one understated, yet important thing. Dragon Ball lives in the moment. It's FAST. The pacing is TIGHT. Every chapter has things happening. It's the polar opposite of its anime adaptation. It's not 100% perfect and sometimes some filler actually add to the story, but in the vast majority of cases, the anime adds so much fat and stupid fluff that it's hard to go back to once you've had a taste of the manga.

>>279646239
To be fair, Freeza wasn't supposed to exist. Namek's villain was just going to be Vegeta again, but he was too popular to kill off so he created Freeza. That's why you end up with a similar set up.

>>279647785
And that's a good thing, Freeza was possibly Toriyama's masterpiece. Even with a few nicks and cracks here and there.

>>279647216
>>279647086
I'm mostly talking about Frieza leaving Vegeta healing in that pod by himself to deliver that "Lose against a guy, win against a guy because you lost" moment that I find lame, and while he does get the balls, again, delegating it to the Ginyus whilst the situation is spiraling out of control with them because they ALSO decided to fold their arms and have a nice sporting competition like Vegeta did before them? Stuff starts being pretty transparent. It's far from the worst thing in the world, but it's where I start raising my eyebrows at how Toriyama handled this, and why I think making guys super duper strong ends up not mattering that much in the end. Most of the DB tropes people make fun of come from Namek for a reason.

>But in the context of reading Dragon Ball and taking it on its own terms, you should be able to suspend your attempts at hacking the system for a moment and accept that it's like that and there's no more hackery or powerups in sight.
>Read any Naruto chapter and you'll find tons of characters doing things far worse than Freeza when it comes to managing their situations
I do get this, don't get me wrong I do not think Dragon Ball or even Namek are a travesty or something but after how well the Saiyan saga handled its stakes, I think Namek is where my good will for DB erodes a little and stuff starts overstaying its welcome. The art is amazing but this is where the comic's penchant with transformations and cheap asspulls solidified itself, barring the part with the super magic water; plus we're on the fourth major villain in a row that starts proud and gets angrier as someone defies him, he gets his comeuppance yada yada... Frieza doesn't impress me that much. Neither does the Super Saiyan state. Yes there's much, much worse stuff to read, and I still love DB but Namek is the part where it starts being way more style than substance, specially after the rules for resurrecting people keep getting more lax, time and time again.

>>279629850 (OP)
It's safe to say that Toriyama has never been good at writing female characters.

>>279647836
>Frieza leaving Vegeta healing in that pod by himself
Vegeta healed like twice as fast as they expected and pulled an escape in possibly the smartest scene of the manga. I can't blame them for that.
>Lose against a guy, win against a guy because you lost
That's the only time we actually had that happen, though. You can find it lame of course
>delegating it to the Ginyus whilst the situation is spiraling out of control with them because they ALSO decided to fold their arms and have a nice sporting competition
It ended up not mattering at all? The balls were in Freeza's possession. The Ginyus were killing Vegeta's group slowly, and in fact, the Ginyus not killing them on sight would have worked in Freeza's favor theoretically because they might have known the password. The issue was Goku getting there and he would have defeated the Ginyus and found the Dragon Balls all the same. No misplay, here.

>Most of the DB tropes people make fun of come from Namek for a reason
I completely disagree. This comes with the assumptions that 1. People read the manga (wrong, people tend to meme 5 minutes and shit, all anime stuff, hell, I see more TFS stuff than manga elements), and 2. The memes aren't extremely internet coded and come from organic reading of the story instead of community jokes that take a life of their own regardless of how valid and insightful they are

>the comic's penchant with transformations and cheap asspulls
Transformations, yes. Asspulls? Not so much. Super Saiyan is foreshadowed. You could maybe claim some plot beats are useless (eg: the Freeza fight is just stalling - yes, although that wouldn't mean it's a waste of time exactly imo)

>fourth major villain in a row that starts proud and gets angrier as someone defies him
Wouldn't say that about Freeza, he has a pretty clear personality and it's neither like Piccolo/Vegeta's, nor like you described. I think the thematic buildup to Freeza is successful despite Goku being out of the arc somehow.

>>279647893
Is he? Bulma is great. 18 is fine, not that interesting but fine.

>>279647836
>more style than substance, specially after the rules for resurrecting people keep getting more lax
Not what I would say about Namek. The entire arc revolves around reviving everyone. Even at the end they are struggling with practical considerations like "we can't revive Goku on Namek because there's no Namek".

Namek is probably one of the arcs with the most substance I would say. It's certainly not without any mechanical inconsistencies (why the fuck is Piccolo coming to Namek after one month at Kaio's instead of teleporting everyone to Earth instead?) but generally speaking it has strong drama, interactions, interesting setups between multiple sides, and it's one hell of a buildup to the finale.

Now Cell, yeah I would agree. Only saved by its strong finale. But Namek deserves respect

>>279647893
Toriyama came from a time where boys wanted to see boys doing boys stuff and female characters were just eye candy.

>>279646592
Probably. He still got the retard moment of tipping off Vegeta about the Genki Dama but that got instantly fixed with Gohan bouncing it.

>>279647893
He's never been good at writing, period. Most characters people like are basically happy accidents.

>>279648293
Lol no. He's better at writing than most shonen mangaka. His dialogues respect the reader's intelligence far more than most shonen jump shit. The mechanics of the kung fu superpowers aren't all perfectly sound, but that was never the point.

>>279647967
>It ended up not mattering at all?
It may not matter in the story but as someone who's reading this and just saw Vegeta scold Nappa for him not to end everything now and wait like a good boy for 2 hours till Goku arrives, you know what's going on. 2 layers of it.

>Super Saiyan is foreshadowed
Ugh sure, whatever the legend, not enough for me man. And even if it is, I've never been a fan of this "I now have all the power" anime transformation. I still think Zenkai is absolutely an asspull, as is the grand elder's powerups, namekian fusion, the constant transformations... you may argue some of this don't end up mattering and there's more emotional weight to all these like you do with the Dende thing but to me it's like coupons being handed by Toriyama because the bad man is too strong. All of this shit people rave about Dragon Ball comes from here, and it just makes me miss training.

>Frieza
I'm gonna be honest I really don't think him being uncaring and sadistic in a more sophisticated way than Vegeta was brutish, or being extremely coddled by his strength, or whatever is enough for me to like him that much To me Frieza will always be a less cool Taopaipai that REALLY overstays his welcome. just like I don't think Perfect Cell is that amazing or personable because he tells Trunk he likes scaring people, I don't think I like any DB villain that much after Vegeta.

Again I'm gonna say do not get me wrong, this shit >>279647775 is the best thing ever but it lacks heart for me and a lot of what came later cuz of it annoys me.

>>279648060
>The entire arc revolves around reviving everyone.
I mean, the fact that death and the times where it's supposed to exist keep getting erased is bad enough for me... All these things keep shitting on what came before and I will say

>Only saved by its strong finale.
I really like 16 because he's the one fucking DB character that stays fucking dead

>>279648408
>His dialogues respect the reader's intelligence far more than most shonen jump shit.
I like what anons noted during the 2024 storytime of characters making *basic* assumptions and not knowing all information. In other manga you just see characters making far-fetched assumptions, magically knowing info they shouldn't, etc.

>>279648569
>Vegeta scold Nappa for him not to end everything now
He didn't do that, in fact Vegeta was the one who pushed for waiting.

>Ugh sure, whatever the legend, not enough for me man
That's basically the entire arc's push. It's not just the transformation or the legend, it's the difference between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta wanted it, Goku didn't. Goku was raised by others and found great external influences and teachers, he was nurture over nature. That's why becoming a heartless Saiyan once more turned him into the legend.

>I still think Zenkai is absolutely an asspull, as is the grand elder's powerups, namekian fusion, the constant transformations
Zenkai is, as it contradicts some earlier parts.
Grand elder isn't, some newly introduced characters having powers is perfectly fine. It was a subplot, actually.
Namekian fusion comes out a little out of nowhere but is used in the story, so it's fine.

Not saying you're entirely wrong, but you're seeing this from an almost mathematical perspective, looking for powerlevels and shortcuts and shit rather than what they truly represent within the story and whether or not they fit.

>Frieza
Agree to disagree, I think he has lots of small dialogues and interactions where he gets to show bits of personality. Well, Saiyan Vegeta is also a favorite of mine, but Freeza does shine for me.

>I mean, the fact that death and the times where it's supposed to exist keep getting erased
They get a way to undo second deaths but it's not that weird. For the first time, death is what shapes an entire arc and the wingoal.

>I really like 16 because he's the one fucking DB character that stays fucking dead
Fair enough. I like the family/fatherhood angle of the finale personally, I think it's pretty cathartic.

>>279648641
That was pretty good, I wonder how Toriyama wrote this even though he didn't care much about the details. It must have come naturally for him.

I miss 2024

>>279648408
The shit he expects people to swallow is still ridiclous at times. Besides, he can't write consistent characters to save his life.

>>279648846
Give actual examples instead of spouting retarded shit without anything to back it up

>>279648865
>Goku briefly turning into generic justice hero man for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs.
>Vegeta's entire face heel turn followed by him losing any competence.
>Piccolo just becoming Kami after absorbing Kami.
>Krillen turning into Yamcha.
>Yamcha cheating.
Just a few examples.

>>279648958
>Goku briefly turning into generic justice hero man for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs
Not liking mass genociders is being a generic justice hero? Defending his planet is being a generic justice hero? What exactly is the issue, should he have joined the Saiyans and murdered Earthlings? Hell, Goku was fine with dodging the mass murderer Freeza on Namek instead of fighting him.
>Vegeta's entire face heel turn followed by him losing any competence.
Not really, except one point that was actually noticed in the 2024 storytime: Cell arc Vegeta is more about muh pride while Namek Vegeta would be fine with dirty tricks to win. Slightly inconsistent.
>Piccolo just becoming Kami after absorbing Kami.
He's not exactly Kami after that though. His personality does get closer to Kami's, but they fused and it changed him, this perfectly makes sense, he's not even a demon anymore. If anything it's an issue of Piccolo not having much screentime after that honestly.
>Krillen turning into Yamcha.
>Yamcha cheating.
Actually valid, but these are Cell arc issues and we all know what we think of the Cell arc.

>>279648687
>He didn't do that, in fact Vegeta was the one who pushed for waiting.
Yeah that's what I meant, Nappa wanted to just crush them all, and Vegeta told him to not disobey him cuz he wanted to humiliated Kakarot.

>Saiyan Vegeta is also a favorite of mine, but Freeza does shine for me
Going back to Saiyan Vegeta and seeing how well executed it was is one of the things that diminished Frieza and Cell for me, and generally long, drawn out manga antagonists that are the ultimate super powerful evil... whereas in DB, the ultimate evil became Gohan's tutor, and Vegeta is more of a dark, snobbish Goku, who makes even him look like an underdog. Goku's awesome clash with him, how for once in the series, power levels make sense with the kaioken thing, how Vegeta starts breaking down and running out of options, and how everyone bands together, give it all they got to stop him until they're dragging themselves on the ground. And Goku proves how much he's matured by sparing his rival when he's got the upper hand like with Raditz and Piccolo I actually like how he still sticks to his morals and tries to also let Frieza go .

It's just perfect, and I'm less of a fan of how Namek feels like a slow motion version of this of sorts? Even if not to a letter, I think nothing else in DB tops the Saiyan Saga, that's just my two cents, I don't think it's as cold as uncaring on my part as you say it is because a lot of it comes from me being annoyed at death not being a thing in DB and stuff going through the motions more and more as things progress... haven't you ever raised an eyebrow when Gero skewers Yamcha in like two pages, and this is the like sixth time in a row this happens faster than before (and his infamous Saibaman crater thing is actually one of his better showings!!) and that's all he's ever gonna be? Now THAT'S "almost mathematical". And it happens with more things than that. That's Toriyama rubbing a pattern in my face and me being annoyed lmao

>>279646239
Toriyama was an industrial designer. I realized the scouter works like infrared goggles and scanned life forms with high energy, doubles as an intercom with long range wireless connection. Freiza didn't know what Dragonballs are until Vegeta and Raditz gloated on the intercom. Toriyama showed again before Namek that Goku broke the armor, which is elastic and sturdy, confusing the doctor cause Vegeta never been beaten to death before. Freiza also has life support systems in the pods in case he gets injured. Freiza has the technology, but he doesn't have magic which is why he seeks Dragonballs.

>>279649069
Not saying you're wrong, although personally the one thing I'll give the Saiyans over Namek is how focused and visceral it is. It's TIGHT and eventful and it also has the upside of the bad guys taking hits while Freeza kind of started the trend of "bad guys just tanks and heals" while Cell/Buu made it worse.

>haven't you ever raised an eyebrow when Gero skewers Yamcha in like two pages
Yes, but rather because the android arc shelved everyone other than Super Saiyans. Hell, the Android arc shelved Trunks too.
I'd be fine with it if the win condition wasn't as simple as "beat X and Y", allowing for different events to unfold and progress towards an endgoal. In its final state, there are events, but they progress towards the villain's endgoal which is a bit dumb.

>and his infamous Saibaman crater thing is actually one of his better showings
You're a man of culture for noticing it.

>>279649171
There is a pretty interesting distinction between tech (Saiyans/Freeza), martial arts/techniques (Earthlings, students of Roshi/Kami, etc.) and magic (Namekians)

>>279649027
I'll give you this much: most of the character issues did really only become bad during Cell.

Though I still dislike how Krillen just became a new character after growing up. I feel Piccolo Jr did a much better job with him.

>>279649171
>Toriyama was an industrial designer.
Capsules as a whole were a good idea and his vehicle design was the shit.

>>279647482
Thera nothing wrong with Zenkai. Bulma started thrusting for aliens after reading Goku's power levels. She wants to be ravaged by Zarbon before settling for Vegeta

>>279649268
>Krillen just became a new character after growing up
Did he? He was always my favorite and Saiyans/Namek was a huge highlight for him. Still the scared-but-plucky guy, realistic but able to punch above his weight when push came to shove. Also wanted a girlfriend.

>I'll give you this much: most of the character issues did really only become bad during Cell.
Mostly in Cell honestly. Depends on the character too.
The premise of Cell has issues with everyone letting Gero live. But Goku acts like a great master and father to Gohan in this arc and these are pretty good and fitting developments for him at this point of his life I think.
Buu is generally doing better character wise, partly because it's a more comedic arc but it has some solid scenes. And of course the Satan ones, but I'll post one that I feel is understated

>>279629850 (OP)
If DB was released nowadays it would be an absolute flop thus there won't be enough discussion

>>279649343
I really like how Goku just smiles as Gohan regrets that they wasted this day on handling Buu.

You can feel Gohan is already determined and ready to take action, but still feel obliged to state this. He's not going to see his father for too long even if they fix this soon. So he has to apologize to his dad at least.

Goku just stays silent and smile. He understands action speaks louder than words. No need for half hearted "it's alright son", just a big shit eating grin, looking into his next job. It's as simple as that.

Maybe it's me just reading too far into this, but nevertheless I find these kinds of small touches really meaningful.

>>279649209
>Cell/Buu made it worse
In the end I see we can agree on how regenerating monsters make extremely boring villains, there's bits and pieces of tje Androids and Satan's role in the Buu saga that I like, and the core of DB, the action, the fighting, is still well drawn, but by that point it's basically just eye candy with plot coupons galore and some interesting nuggets sometimes maybe comedy.

>You're a man of culture for noticing it.
I mean, there's nothing to "notice", it's the text!! Even Nappa calls it a cheap shot lmao!! People who think it's just pure pathetic is people who only know Yamcha from TFS and memes, but in reality Ten Shin Han and Shen and Jackie Chun humiliated Yamcha way more than that thing.

One thing I did notice that made me say Frieza is Tao Pai Pai in slow motion: the latter did the "I won't use my hands" routine first. The pacing was completely different and it was just two-three pages, but he did have his arms folded on his back until he had to use the Dodonpa. I still think Tao Pai Pai is the blueprint for basically every major DB antagonist, not disparaging any of them this time, just saying, this is where Toriyama struck gold.

>>279649343
Torishima complained that Super Saiyan Goku got beaten by an old man robot despite Goku losing to Master Roshi, Mercenary Tao, and Old King Piccolo, and a robot Pirate.

>>279649402
I like things more in the Majin Vegeta situation where it shows Tori was good at drawing varying expressions. You can tell Goku is a mix of pissed off and something else and Vegeta is sweating buckets at what he sees he has to do for a last chance to fight his rival.

>>279649415
>In the end I see we can agree on how regenerating monsters make extremely boring villains
Even Nappa took damage and there was also a time stalling component. Not so much for Cell and Buu. Regeneration can be worked around, and I think it works fine with Buu because it's a more comedic arc, but Cell... man... it's rough.

>I mean, there's nothing to "notice", it's the text!! Even Nappa calls it a cheap shot lmao
True, but people also just... don't fucking read or watch the story so they miss the part where Krillin says Yamcha felt something bad could happen and took Krillin's place on purpose.

>people who only know Yamcha from TFS and memes
Obvious plague on the fanbase.

>I still think Tao Pai Pai is the blueprint for basically every major DB antagonist, not disparaging any of them this time, just saying, this is where Toriyama struck gold.
He definitely is a blueprint, not sure if he's that good though. He's good but I probably like the other parts of Red Ribbon more, the cave adventure, the muscle tower, and the final tournament with Grandpa Gohan. People do overstate how much "early DB" was about adventure, but these were some of the exceptions where we really got to breathe into this world. Worth it!

>>279649489
That's also one of my favorites. Toriyama had some god tier expressions, they really say a lot without any words.

>>279649343
I miss his more confident and cheeky trickster side. He really wasn't that scared as a kid, if anything he was overly brash at times. I know he's more popular as the plucky everyman but I felt that was less fun than him as a kid.

I guess part of it is also that the fights became less intresting. In the past when he punched above his weight it was typically because he outsmarted his opponent.

>But Goku acts like a great master and father to Gohan in this arc and these are pretty good and fitting developments for him at this point of his life I think.
Goku as a mentor does work really well and it's complete absence in more modern Dragon Ball is strongly felt.

Dragon Ball is too sincere for modern audiences.

>>279645688
Yeah but remember, we're talking as if the series was released TODAY. Most people nowadays have meta knowledge to know they won't kill off the main character so he won't die from the water.

>>279649506
>won't fucking read or watch the story so they miss the part where Krillin says Yamcha felt something bad could happen and took Krillin's place on purpose
Yeaaaaah, that chapter's called "Yamcha's premonition", I had the single issue as a kid. In a way yeah, it's just Toriyama shoving Yamcha through stage left again, but it's the most graceful way he did it, a way better moment than people give it credit for, probably Yamcha's best, up there with him cutting Goku's tail. Every page of the Saiyan Saga is forever embedded in my brain, it misses very few beats.

I'm gonna give you major fucking props for praising Red Ribbon also, I do think it's the high point of classic DB and for me, the pea of Toriyama, a perfect middle ground between the comedic and the action packed, lots of adventure in many places with Goku doing good deeds, underrated characters like Number 8, and moments like Roshi and Lunch fighting those soldiers. From one time when it wasn't inconceivable there could be people as strong as Goku in the world. High tier comic, always loved it.

>>279649506
Why does Nappa filter so many zoomers? He does what many people would do with Saiyan powers, go on destructive rampages while wanting to breed with women.

>>279649797
It's hilarious to me Vegeta called Nappa out when he told him he wanted to make a bunch of Gohans, yet he ended up carrying on his wishes after killing him and made Trunks lmao

>>279649741
>underrated characters like Number 8
Yep, incredibly based. You know what? You won the good taste contest, and here's a Number 8 highlights pic for the matter. Love that guy.

>Kishimoto keeps showing you EMOTIONAL FLASHBACKS meant to make you sad
>doesn't work at all
>Toriyama shows a minimalist goodbye scene
>I fucking feel it
How does this happen

>>279649838
Toriyama Vegeta lacks empathy which means he doesn't understand the concept of raising a son to avenge him.

>>279649926

>>279646472
It's still noteworthy how fucking insane their jumps in power are from arriving on Namek to leaving with Zenkais.
Vegeta legit is just shy of 1000x stronger than when he arrived, and Goku got 33 times stronger from Ginyu Force to Freiza, then 50 times on top of that for over 1,500x stronger.
Adding to Piccolo's jump with Fusing to Nail and Gohan and Krillin's jump from Guru releasing their potential and hypothetical 'released today' DB would be panned similar to how we panned Granloah arc.
Namek might be the only thing that tops War Arc Naruto for how absurdly stronger characters get.

>>279650102
The last number we get is 1000 000 for Freeza 2, still kind of absurd of a jump but if you stop there it's not in the levels you're currently discussing. The most would be Vegeta's 10x jump between Ginyu and Freeza.

These retarded numbers are just a product of people wanting to keep the numbers going after Freeza 2, so they keep adding more and putting these multipliers on top of it, x20 for Kaioken, x2 for Freeza being at 50%... and so on. Stupid stuff all around, it shouldn't be taken seriously honestly.

>>279649838
Don't waste your time trying to reason Vegeta's character in his introduction at the Sayan Saga, he was very much a completely different character that Toriyama conceptualized as a full villain, with no intention of joining the main cast.

Vegeta's personality in his debut was overly sadistic, who not once talked about his Sayan race as something he felt loss for, he just wanted to kill everyone Raditz failed to; it was Nappa of all people who suggests to Vegeta they just breed their race back to existence. Take note of how Vegeta just smirks and remains still while Nappa and the Saibaman do all the work, like a general who won't move a finger when he still has personal to do the work, until Vegeta finally is fed up with Nappa being destroyed by Goku that he kills him while the guy is asking for help.

Those traits are pretty much a concept for Frieza's character within Sayan Saga Vegeta; Toriyama transfered Vegeta's worst parts in his debut to Frieza later on, while finally giving Vegeta his unrelenting pride and sentiment of loss over his fallen Sayan race, to immediately gather sympathy among the readers on Namek so his pragmatic alliance with Krillin and Gohan feels less unnatural.

>Vegeta was a nasty guy at first in the serialization, and I had thought about bringing an end to [his story] as just a villain, but as I was writing, I felt that his villainous sort of warped straightforwardness was unexpectedly interesting. I couldn’t imagine that a guy with this kind of hairstyle would become popular, and yet he’d get more votes than Goku in favorite-character polls, and even I consciously began to actively have him appear. - Akira Toriyama × Shōko Nakagawa Interview

>https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/official-battle-gods-website-toriyama-x-nakagawa-interview/
Anonymous Wed 26 Mar 2025 00:21:16 No.277425492 ViewReport

>>279649859
>good taste contest
lmao it's not a race dad!!

But yeah cheers haha Eight's really endearing and cool, his panel of him punching General white into orbit, and that part with Roshi beating those RR thugs, are forever engraved in my brain. So memorable and impeccably drawn. Saddest casualty of DB's powerscale exploding: these kind of smaller, mixed action scenes.

>>279650243
What truly died with Piccolo was Toriyama's ability to make you feel like there were lots of stronger people around the world. Thankfully he added a soft reset with the aliens.

>>279650200
Namek Vegeta is very consistent with Saiyans Vegeta. Pic related.
The only inconsistencies start with his PRIDE on the Cell arc.

>>279649308
>Thera nothing wrong with Zenkai.
Zenkai were completely broken in Namek. Multiplying Vegeta and Goku's power many times without issues due to the healing methods available. It's why it basically disappears from the manga afterwards aside from being a one time plot device for Cell. But it's never used by the heroes again.

>>279650299
>"Actually it was cause Beerus told him to lol."
Still mad

>>279649488
One thing about the Android Saga I don't get was Toriyama making it so Gero didn't know about Namek and Super Saiyan. Everything would have flowed much more naturally if he had known about them and that was used as part of the explanation for the power of the androids.

>>279650200
>Those traits are pretty much a concept for Frieza's character within Sayan Saga Vegeta; Toriyama transfered Vegeta's worst parts in his debut to Frieza later on
Fucking called it. I've been feeling and saying this for years. I might have even said it in this thread, how the saiyans were introduced as the super evil planet peddlers to an unreasonable degree, screaming he was the strongest in the world, and that basically ended up being retconned into Frieza's job. But I'd say Vegeta remained a cold motherfucker during Namek, they just started channeling his jerkiness in other directions when he was hanging out with everyone.

>>279650357
>started channeling his jerkiness in other directions when he was hanging out with everyone
I don't know. For me the most surprising would be that he actually just hung out on Earth for a year before Goku came back, that was a bit unsettling. The rest is expected

>>279629850 (OP)
>Goku dies to Cell's explosion
>/a/ sad
>All of sudden Cell appears in Perfect Form again, is stronger than before, the nucleus thing (even though Goku blew his head off), killing Trunks, and having teleportation
Everyone would call it an ass pull.

Vegeta making Yamcha into Yamcuck due to fucking Bulma would be cause endless shitposting.

>>279650268
Yup, Upa's dad shrugged off bullets, and Nam came pretty close to hurting Goku, he was almost a contest. I would rather say it died with Korin's training, when after Goku destroyed RR HQ even Roshi was like "welp, he's stronger than me now", then Ten Shin Han resurrected it for a while, then Piccolo killed and buried it. But all "space's soft reset" did was making Saiyans biological JRPG characters, broken in every way, unbeatable and with infinite potential so Iunno.

>>279650408
I mean it is. One of the biggest in the series.

>Wow, I can't believe Mr. Satan tamed Bu- OH GOD THEY SHOT THE DOG!

>>279650510
Imagine the dozens of detached irony poisoned assholes posting wojaks going

>"NOT THE HECKIN DOGERINO"

I think Raditz being an one and done villain would be memed way more.

>>279650766
>Goku's brother
>is basically the starting villian of the Z portion and never shows up again
Yeah.

>>279650460
Saiyans were weaker than a lot of Freeza's mutants.

Don't wanna jinx it but this was the most enjoyable and least retarded DB thread I've been in since Super started, I'm gonna miss it.

>>279651643
Dragon Ball has an extremely high quality level of threads on average IF you ignore the cancer that is /dbs/. It's weird.

>>279651643
Yeah. I regret putting a thumbnail like a retard as the thread image but still.

>>279648958
>wah wahh Goku being a good guy is a bad thing!!
I highly resent this mindset. Goku bering a good guy is good. And the way he matured into it from letting Piccolo live and taking responsability, to how hard Frieza pushed him to being proven right with Buu's reincarnation is a decent character arc. He matures way more than people give him credit for. Sick of this media landscape of Shadow the Hedgehogs and evil Superman clones.

>>279651747
I think he meant as in Goku being the voice of reason.
Like, it was jarring to see Goku scold Vegeta for killing the ginyu force when Kid Goku killed people for less, even if he changed, that shouldn't be something too horrible on his eyes, specially coming from Vegeta.

>>279651643
/dbs/ is where DB fans go to party, if you want real discussion you have to phrase your OP like a question as this thread demonstrates.

>>279651864
Well he did change, that can't be ignored. If he struggled as much as he did to end fucking Frieza, was forced to maim Nappa to stop him from killing his friends... it seems in character for me. It's not a bad thing to have Goku try to instill his new ally with the same responsability he's trying to exert.

>>279651990
Vegeta was a temporary ally at the time, something suggested he'd live on earth back then.

>>279651864
Goku's main problem was that Vegeta killed them while defenseless. He too doesn't chide Frieza for killing Vegeta, but that he did it while he was already defeated.

>>279651875
Well DB fan parties suck fucking diseased cocks. Almost literally.

>Goku loses to Tien because he gets hit by a car
The seethe would have been legendary.

>>279651875
/dbs/ can still potentially invade good Dragon Ball threads, which is both funny and scary.

All this thread tells me is that the internet and fandom are horrible and that they destroy all enjoyment of fiction.
I agree, it's true.
But it also shows that the authors and works are awful.

>>279652169
Was amusing how first time readers reacted to put it into perspective. Goku got robbed like Ash, but at least he avenged himself next time.

>>279652314
Get outta here. There's as many hacks as there's good authors. Wrinkles and all, with all the work Toriyama created you can definitely veer him towards good. Great even. He's not even close to George Lucas territory, which I wouldn't consider outright bad, but rather questionable for a big author.

I will unequivocably agree on your first point though though, unrestrained fandom is fucking cancer. The younger, larger and more passionate, the worse.

>>279652317
Never thought of it that way. Makes Goku's anal retentiveness against having a fair win against Piccolo feel even more justified. He just wanted to finally fucking win so bad.

>>279629850 (OP)
Imagine being a fan of Yamcha from early DB and finding out in a random weekly chapter that the girl you had assumed to be his girlfriend just fucked the guy who killed him in the first post-time skip arc and also gave him a kid. People in the west don't realize how brutal this cucking was because we all watched DBZ on a daily basis as kids and quickly normalized Vegeta and Bulma as a couple.

>>279652544
The whole Bulma/Vegeta thing feels like a middle finger lmao I know Toriyama says he's no good at romance but at least in Dr Slump when Sembei accidentally proposes to Ms Yamabuki while she's in the can, it was a funny joke. When Bulma dashes the last shred of Yamcha's relevancy completely off screen it's like the most malice-filled case of not giving a fuck I've ever seen. No wonder Yamcha is a meme to an almost venerable degree.

>>279652544
>Bulma calls her own child hot

>>279647612
I don't know if it's fundamentally better for a manga medium than an anime medium, but Toriyama's manga is unquestionably better than Toei's anime.

>>279632704
Don't forget he also beats Frieza and King Cold without taking a single hit

>>279652645
>When Bulma dashes the last shred of Yamcha's relevancy completely off screen it's like the most malice-filled case of not giving a fuck I've ever seen
It was completely disrespectful to the character. Even if Yamcha was a jobber most of the time, he was an og character that a lot of people felt sympathy for. The funniest and most fucked up thing is that at the beginning of that arc he and Bulma seemed fine be fine, but a couple of chapters later she was already pregnant by another man.

>>279652645
>When Bulma dashes the last shred of Yamcha's relevancy completely off screen it's like the most malice-filled case of not giving a fuck I've ever seen
It was completely disrespectful to the character. Even if Yamcha was a jobber most of the time, he was an og character that a lot of people felt sympathy for. The funniest and most fucked up thing is that at the beginning of that arc he and Bulma seemed to be fine, but a couple of chapters later she was already pregnant by another man.

>>279629850 (OP)
>I wonder if this is gonna awaken a fetish in a bunch of people...

Gohan not being able to catch an earring despite super senses was insult to injury

Everyone brushes off the genocidal crimes of Vegeta and what he did to the main characters. The existence of dragon balls alone makes death meaningless but still, Goku and the others really don’t give a shit. Dragon ball characters might be the most morally bankrupt protagonists in all of battle shonen

>>279654817
Everyone hates SHITgeta except maybe his snowbunny slut wife

>>279654817
Funnily enough Tenshinhan was the only one who continually voiced his distrust in Vegeta (to the point of being petty enough not to use Bulma's armor) but was written out after Cell.

>>279654817
>Dragon ball characters might be the most morally bankrupt protagonists in all of battle shonen
I know, it's fun.