Thread 5042739

Evil is best known through examples, and the production and consumption of crush videos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_fetish are about as clear an example of grotesque wickedness as one can find. These videos involve people stomping on little animals for the sexual pleasure of their degenerate viewers. The animals suffer horrifyingly, getting literally stomped to death. I suspect few will disagree when I say that purchasing crush videos is severely morally wrong.

Suppose we want to explain why purchasing crush videos is wrong. Here is my thesis: it is wrong because you shouldn’t cause animals extreme suffering for comparatively minor personal benefit. You shouldn’t beat a dog because you find it funny. You shouldn’t set a cat on fire for minor convenience. You shouldn’t burn live cats for biofuel.

The other explanation one might give is that it’s wrong to derive sexual pleasure in sadistic ways. Yet this, I think, cannot be the whole story. If a person burns a live cat to illuminate a cave or for biofuel (imagining that live cats were a marginally more efficient energy source than alternatives) they would be acting wrongly. Similarly, it would be wrong to set a cat on fire because it released a pleasing odor—even though presumably the enjoyment of the odor would be non-sadistic.

Don't care. By gut has evolved to eat meat and veg but you can choose to live on the slop grain and bugs OP.

>>5042739 (OP)
Now, another explanation people sometimes give for why such an action is morally wrong is because of what it does to the person doing it, not to the animal. It makes us worse people—or so it is claimed—when we hurt animals. This explanation, once again, might be part of the story but isn’t a complete explanation. If there was a person whose character was not hardened by tormenting animals, it would still be wrong for them to torment animals. Indeed, even if there was a person who found animal torture soothing—for whom torturing animals helped them calm down and be nicer—we would still hold that they should not torture animals. And similar things go, of course, for burning a live cat for biofuel.


>>5042740
Non human beings and persons are a good argument for veganism.. so is name the trait
https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait

This dialogue tree has been used by vegans many times in live debates, (feel free to comment on one of their videos, email them, message them on Instagram etc to challenge them to a debate on NTT )

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JiGT6ox0Y-M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJR5vsrkr9A

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQLjgo2TfcM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrtziO8Ffc4&pp=ygUjRHIgQXZpIGRlYmF0ZSB2ZWdhbiBuYW1lIHRoZSB0cmFpdCA%3D

If someone says it's okay to kill a animal and turn them into a burger but not okay to do that to a human and the reason they give is that animals can't reason but humans can they'd have to bite the bullet and say it's okay to turn severely permanently mentally handicapped humans who can't reason into burgers. Or go vegan. Or name another trait(s)

>>5042742
So the lesson we learn from the wrongness of purchasing crush videos, burning live cats for biofuel, and tormenting animals to produce a nice smell is that you shouldn’t cause animals very large amounts of suffering for trivial benefits. Doing so is deeply immoral. It’s not just a slight foible to be brushed off, but is instead unspeakably horrific. If one was doing these things, you wouldn’t just vaguely wag your finger disapprovingly, but instead demand they stop immediately and try desperately to talk them out of their wicked acts, if not report them to police.

I have bad news for you: if it is wrong to cause animals extreme suffering for comparatively trivial benefit, then you are probably doing something very immoral several times per day. If so, you should stop.

>>5042746
>>5042742
Nearly all meat in the United States—and other developed countries—comes from factory farms. Factory farms are what you’d get if you allowed the Icebox killers to design a food system. They keep animals in tiny filthy, feces-ridden cages where they can’t turn around. They mutilate them in horrible ways, slaughter them painfully, transport them nightmarishly, and genetically engineer them so that they’re in constant pain. Every moment of a factory farmed animal’s life is hellish. These animals—being just babies at the time this occurs—are subject to suffering of a form few of us could even fathom. If anyone treated a dog or person the way factory farms treat ~80 billion animals annually, everyone would call the cruel treatment they inflicted torture. You can read more about all the horrible things they do here. https://benthams.substack.com/p/weve-created-hell-its-called-factory

And when you purchase meat from a factory farm, you result in more animals being brought into existence. https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-causal-inefficacy-objection-is?utm_source=publication-search Farms have some threshold at which they purchase more animals, and you have some chance of triggering the threshold. If you do the math, in expectation you cause about one extra animal to be produced each time you eat an animal.

So each time you purchase animal products, you are causing more animals to be brought into existence in horrible conditions. This means that you are causing animals very large amounts of suffering. Why are you doing this? For comparatively small personal benefit. You will not enjoy a chicken sandwich as much as the chickens hated the weeks of brutal mistreatment they experienced in the production of the sandwich.

>>5042747
Sometimes people eat meat for reasons of convenience. But once again, this is a comparatively small benefit. The harms of being tortured in a factory farm are vastly greater than the convenience that accompanies meat-eating.

So, in short, to explain why it’s wrong to do all sorts of evil things to animals for personal pleasure, we must think that it’s wrong to cause animals extreme suffering for comparatively minor benefit. But that principle implies that eating meat is seriously morally wrong.

If I’m right about this, then meat-eating isn’t some minor item of misconduct, akin to littering or being rude to someone. It is more like gassing dogs in your basement because you enjoy the smell. In fact, because the average person eats thousands of animals, it would be like if you gassed several thousand dogs over the course of your life to produce a nice smell.

Now, astonishingly, charitable donations https://www.farmkind.giving/compassion-calculator-v2?promo=bentham do so much good that even giving away a small amount of money does more good than going vegan. So going vegan isn’t the most important thing for a person to do—donating to good charities is even more important. But if you eat animal products, that is by far the worst act (as opposed to omission) you take. It is about as bad as puppy torture.

This doesn’t mean you’re as bad of a person as puppy torturers. Sometimes you don’t know when you do evil things. Good people often do evil things when those things are socially accepted. But you are probably causing more suffering to innocent animals than vegan producers of crush content mostly do. You are hurting animals a lot more than people who beat their dogs. Even if a person beats ten dogs a year to death, you are causing a lot more animal cruelty than they are.

So stop! Don’t do the evil thing! Go vegan! Here’s some meal prep advice https://challenge22.com/

>>5042742
>If someone says it's okay to kill a animal and turn them into a burger but not okay to do that to a human and the reason they give is that animals can't reason but humans can they'd have to bite the bullet and say it's okay to turn severely permanently mentally handicapped humans who can't reason into burgers.
Humans are distinct from other non-human organisms. Easy.

>>5042742
You're killing it with all the go-to arguments but you'll never make a difference on 4chan

>>5042758
Germans are distinct from non Germans

>>5042761
Heavy water is distinct from non-heavy water, but it is still water.

>>5042758
How are humans 'distinct' from animals besides our cognitive abilities then?

>>5042739 (OP)
Meat eaters be like
>I EVOLVED TO HAVW HEART DIESEASE AND ASS CANCER BY 50!

>>5042739 (OP)
>>5042742
>>5042746
>>5042747
>>5042749

Infinite samefag that conveniantly doesn't touch upon obvious inconvenient points.
Can you work out what those are?

>>5042758
>Humans are distinct from other non-human organisms. Easy.
Exactly. Finally, someone with a functioning brain makes a valid point.
>>5042761
>Germans are distinct from non Germans
Germans and non-Germans are both humans anon.
>>5042760
>You're killing it with all the go-to arguments but you'll never make a difference on 4chan
The arguments don't even make any fucking sense lol. He's just talking to people that are already vegan on 4chan. Which is strange.

>>5042763
They are not human, iy's that simple. If they are human there would be a conflict of interest, but there isn't. Yes I can be that blunt and simple about it because it is not complicated to understand and is sound reasoning. I don't need to get into the fucking weeds to justify an intrinsic function of our evolutionary process. We are omnivores, we other animals and vegetation.

>>5042768
>we eat other animals*

>>5042763
They aren't. Christians can't even agree on what "made in the image of God" means.
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40952000/#40960486
Just look at proto humans

>>5042768
>>5042765
Human is a meaningless fucking term just like "German". I'm not going to waste hours debating this over text if you feel so strongly about it go debate it over voice on the discord of ask yourself, Dr. Avi, nutrivore

>>5042764
>be like
Haha. There are black vegans on 4chan now.
How hilarious.
>>I EVOLVED TO HAVW HEART DIESEASE AND ASS CANCER BY 50!

"Vegan influencer Zhanna Samsonova 'dies of starvation' after decade of only eating raw fruit and vegetables"
https://news.sky.com/story/vegan-influencer-zhanna-samsonova-dies-of-starvation-after-decade-of-only-eating-raw-fruit-and-vegetables-12932232

"Jeanne Louise Calment 21 February 1875 – 4 August 1997) was a French supercentenarian. With a documented lifespan of 122 years and 164 days, she is the oldest person in history"

"She enjoyed daube (braised beef)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

>>5042773
Your the one who has entered a thread trying to make arguments to the contrary faggot. If you can't defend the fucking position don't get ass blasted when you get raped by other anons.

>Vegan schizo evaded his ban AGAIN
Not all animals are the same. End of story.

>name the trait!
Is human. Is dog. Is cat. Is chicken. They are distinctly different creations with different purposes and different values.

it is that simple. "living thing" does not have automatic supreme moral worth. animals have no moral standing to be selectively refuted. they have none to start with and must be assigned moral standing due to their relationship with human prosperity.

Unless you believe in God, the ONLY God, the Lord God, father of Christ, you have no moral leg to stand on except for pragmatism or heresy. Coincidentally, pragmatism perfectly aligns with the Lord God's will so you don't actually get a choice except in your decision to blaspheme or not and follow a retarded "culture" that is ultimately inferior to the commands of God and thus nature. It's almost like he created the universe and only spoke to man to inform him of the obvious, and God's will is an inescapable law of reality, telling us how to best survive because beings like us are the most treasured extensions of his infinite self.

>>5042764
Meat consumption is the only dietary choice correlated with increased lifespan when everything else is controlled for.

Americans guzzling hot dogs, fried burgers, and white bread does not make meat itself unhealthy anymore than eating processed sugarcane and high fructose corn syrup make plants unhealthy. It makes gluttony and greed for more pleasure-inducing foods unhealthy.

>>5042773
>Logically, human is a meaningless term!
Put this into practice and realize how worthless your logic is without a base in reality. When you live in a world of words you cease to be able to make decisions about what the words are based on. Your ideas are the fiat currency of philosophy.

There is only reality, and reality is an extension of God, thus there is only God. This is the necessity and the truth.

>>5042778
Christians can't even define what a human is or made in the image of God is. They debate among themselves if evolution is true.

>>5042784
>Define human
Open your eyes. If you doubt the definition of homo sapiens sapiens, go ahead and slaughter the next "human" you think doesn't meet it and see what happens to you.

Protip: You will not like the results, and you will go to hell after.

>>5042786
Go slaughter a cow in the middle of the street in India in broad daylight.
Go slaughter a dog in the middle of the street in USA in broad daylight.
Hell isn't real.

>>5042778
>>5042777
>>5042786
You don't need to invoke god to defeat veganism anon...
Especially strange when vegetarianism has a long history in Christianity...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

How is it that a dumb vegan with dumb arguments has to attract a dumb christ-tard with equally dumb arguments. I guess it's 4chan.

>>5042789
Compare the civilization indians have buit.
Compare the superior civilizations of those that value dogs.

Know them by their fruits.

Indians value cows because they are in a retarded satanic cult. Superior people value dogs because they are naturally appealing to the ensouled. Indians will whine about their 9001 gods being disrespected. Superior western society will correctly recognize that you are a risk to others and low in empathy. The abuse of dogs and cats consistently correlates with worse crimes down the line because those two species in particular naturally evolved to force ensouled humans to feel empathy. Healthy, normal soul having people have great difficulty harming either.

>>5042790
Unlike vegans, pescatarians and lacto-ovo-vegetarians are actually healthy and respectable. Also, you're bringing up biblical literalism. Nothing in the bible can not be taken as literal or it contradicts many objective natural and historical facts. None of it actually happened. It's stories meant to teach core values. It is best interpreted as an early form of guidance to keep people eating meat with respect and reverence instead of irreverence, cruelty, and gluttony like the factory farmers and burger-inhalers of today, and to restrict their diet to animals that are ideal for eating and keep the illiterate retarded masses away from food sources that degrade their moral character like dog and cat meat. Notice it also portrays hunters as prone to immorality. That is because they kill something that goes very far out of its way to avoid being killed, hunting often involved a cruel death at the time, and if you have livestock as an option you shouldn't prefer to do that.

>>5042801
Jains respect animals even more then Hindus and are extremely wealthy and powerful. Jews treat animals terribly and Christians are their slaves. I see literally no correlation

>>5042803
>saar, jains are greater than da joos!
Civilization will march on without you.

I believe god intended for man to grow up and realize religions were not literal.

>>5042803
>Jews treat animals terribly and Christians are their slaves
'merican detected.

>>5042768
You have no reason, you failed at the one thing that supposedly sets you above an animal.

>>5042813
I gave you a reason. You chose to reject it because you know you can't actually refute it. Suck it up and shove your mental gymnastics up your ass.

>>5042813
and you're a narcissist who supplanted his morals with a fantasy about proving his intellect to others instead of actually being good - or questioning why be good instead of how to argue about being good

>>5042818
>>5042817
>still can't tell me why humans are distinct from animals
Get emotional much?

>>5042822
If you cannot see the distinction between humans and other animals, a logical an observeble foundation as obvious as the sky being blue, as minor or major as that distinction may be, you are retarded or so fucking debate brained you can no longer opperated within a working scope of the world you live in.

>>5042742
name the trait is an inherently bad argument
>you must name a trait that refutes the moral worth of an animal
no, you must argue that animals have moral worth to begin with. people have tried and the end result is they actually have none inherent to being themselves. their moral worth is relative to the function they serve, be it in the ecosystem or in human society, and the consequences of actions taken against them.

humans on the other hand have unquestionable worth. yes, even the retarded. if you can kill a retard without remorse for the act or disgust for yourself there is no man you can not kill without remorse or disgust. a human is a human regardless of how you justify killing them and regardless of the logical copes you use to redefine them as something else. your need for this "logic" proves it. you can not escape this fact. or the fact that such psychopaths are of limited utility, and humanity has an obligation to remove them from society, and question their use (their use is just in warfare, and their presence causes the warfare to begin with). you can choose not to act like a human, but other humans can also choose not to live with your inhuman behavior or the inhuman ideas that support it.

>>5042822
>tell me why red is distinct from green and no i won't take "they are different frequencies of photon emissions" for an answer tell me metaphysically why red OUGHT TO BE distinct from green
Your approach to thought is nonfunctional.

>>5042823
>it's just OBVIOUS, you know it I know it everybody knows it!
You didn't do well in debate huh. Trump ass rhetoric lol

>>5042827
See >>5042825
Your approach to thought is nonfunctional.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11901473/

>>5042825
Right, so humans and animals give off different photon wavelengths. Is that your final answer lol

>>5042829
>unable to understand analogy
Confirmed
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11901473/

>>5042828
My approach to thought is asking for you to reason out your position and you can't do it so are getting emotional. Just wanted to clear that up.

>>5042830
I'm not vegan so not sure why you keep linking me that. Let me know when you have an answer to why you think humans are distinct from animals besides "THEY JUST ARE".

>>5042827
So are you telling me there is no distinction from your neighbor or family members from different animals? Don't you see how fucking absurd that sounds?

>>5042831
If you can not clearly see that humans and cows are not the same species, there is no point in reasoning with you. You are some pseud narcissist not concerned with truth, but with performative virtue signaling and self fellation.

>>5042833
Yes, the distinction is intellectual. Wouldn't you agree that our cognitive ability is was distinguishes us? Our ability to plan and reason? Hmm?

>>5042832
Tell me why gold is not silver without saying "IT JUST ISNT" and I won't take no fucking atomic number for an answer

>>5042835
Unintelligent people are still humans
Intelligent animals still are not

Try again.

The difference is material. Innate. Undeniable. Natural.

I know you hate nature because it's literally God's will, and your droopy anus is natural proof that homosexuality is wrong, but come on.

>>5042835
>Yes, the distinction is intellectual
No, even if animal had the same intellectual capacity a distinction would remain between human and non-human organisms. The fact you cannot understand this concept is baffling

>>5042838
>>5042837
Okay so you've rejected that intellect is what makes humans distinct from animals. What makes them distinct then?

>>5042839
The difference is material. Innate. Undeniable. Natural. It is an emergent property of biology and can not be refuted, avoided, or reasoned into or out of existence.

No matter how hard you try to convince yourself and others that you are smart by playing the philosopher reality will always be there to bite you in the ass if you ever want to go beyond your obnoxious yapping and put your "ideas" into practice.

>>5042839
Easy. Conception can exist outside of material reality. Just because there is no perfect circle doesn't mean we cannot contexualize the concept of one. So is something such as a human being distinct from an animal that is not human, the distinction exists on a conceptional level just as a perfect circle can be defined.

You fucking retard.

>>5042844
The only good post in this entire thread.

>>5042847
technically this thread shouldn't exist

op has received at least 3 30 day bans for posting animal cruelty in the past week, and an uncountable number of additional bans for trolling (primarily bestiality references) and racism (primarily against jews) and even a few permas (for bestiality references and ban evasions)

>>5042841
>>5042842
>it's immaterial. It's innate. It's just a part of nature!
>the reason exists outside of reality. Humans are perfext circles.
And you accused ME of mental gymnastics, lmao
At least we know what sets you two morons apart from animals.
You have yet to provide one concrete reason btw. Hell, you could have said our capacity for empathy, would have been a much better argument than whatever the hell that was.
Here's a question for you, what would the difference be between you typing that out or a monkey with a typewriter? I would say very little.

>>5042850
>Mental gymnastics
Where are the gymnastics?

Humans are not animals.
Animals are not humans.
It is self evident.

>>5042849
That's an extremely contradictory thing to say anon.
>>5042853
Why are quoting the bible if it's self evident?

>>5042850
>NOOOO!!!! I AM NOT RETARD WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OR EVEN GRASP FOUNDATIONAL WESTERN PHILOSOPHY AS WELL AS BASIC HUMAN CONCEPTIONAL PROCESSING!!!! IT'S YOU THAT IS ACTUALLY RETARDED TRYING TO LEAD A DEHYDRATED HORSE TO WATER!!!!
I accept your concession.

>>5042855
The bible is an allegorical text the creator of humanity indirectly influenced in attempting to convince humans to survive better because he knew they were prone to nonfunctional mental masturbation (as you have demonstrated here) that makes them fully capable of convincing at least some humans to kill themselves and each other.

>>5042856
Wow.
>>5042853
Science says humans are animals, did you skip 8th grade biology class?

>>5042860
>Science says humans are animals
And yet a distinction remains between humans and non-human animals.

>>5042861
Oh I'm curious about this distinction. Tell me more! What is it?

>>5042855
4chan mods have repeatedly banned you, with your accumulated non-permanent bans adding up to over a lifetime, for posting animal cruelty, bestiality, and antisemitism on /an/.

Additionally, this thread is off topic trolling that is a better fit for /his/ or /pol/.

Essentially your activities fit into the framework of this website as if you just escaped prison and started shitting in the middle of the street. In such a case, indeed, you should not be shitting in the street. Both because it is a public nuisance and because you are meant to be in jail.

>>5042862
It is self evident.

>>5042862
Well, you see anon, there is a difference between an animal which is human and an animal which isn't human. If there wasn't then the conception of a human would no longer exist as no distinction exists. Thankfully, common innate consensus engrained into humans at birth can understand this concept!

>>5042862
employ the empirical method. fuck around and find out.

god knows we need you off the streets.

>>5042866
Sorry, that's not enough evidence to write this essay I'm writing, the teacher would surely scoff at such a contention. Could you be more detailed?

>>5042863
What the actual F are you talking about anon.
You're a vegan moron debating a Christian moron and calling him antisemitic despite the fact that Jews and Muslims use the exact same arguments as he is using.
Pure unadulterated brain rot.
You're both idiots.

>>5042870
It is self evident.
>BUT THE TEACHER!
Academics are notoriously prone to foolishness in order to justify their station to even bigger fools than they, as surely as an elected lawmaker makes useless and even harmful laws simply so those with no idea beyond "i elected a lawmaker so they would make laws" will be satisfied.

>>5042871
>He doesn't know who OP is
I'm not the vegan moron (OP)
The vegan moron (OP) already got banned this morning for posting an image with a dog being raped, again.

>>5042868
So the only distinction is that we take the form of human? And humans should act entirely without regard to other forms simply because they are human?

>>5042875
>The vegan moron (OP) already got banned this morning for posting an image with a dog being raped, again.
He said, she said, I'm not perma-online enough to know who the fuck you're even talking about if you aren't just lying.

>>5042876
That is one way of putting it, but I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of metaphysics in a retarded thread like this. Killing and eating animals is different from killing and eating disabled people, that's the original point I was addressing as being stupid. Humans are distinct from non-humans so there is no conflict of interest and is a valid justification. You mighy not like it, but that does not mean it is not untrue.

>>5042876
>If humans and animals are different, animals should be disregarded entirely
What a leap.

Animals have no moral standing that is innate to being what they are, and humans do, but that does not mean animals exist in a vacuum separate from us. You are mentally deficient if you don't understand this.

And yet this is the reason we maintain an ecosystem rather than wiping out all life to end suffering.

>>5042877
I'm not either. There's a small group that shares this information.

>>5042877
check desuarchive deleted/deleted newfriend

>>5042739 (OP)
what board did you get rangebanned from this time?

>>5042739 (OP)
Animals don't belong in my moral community. I have no obligation towards them.

>>5042902
this one again, duh. this guy is currently paying for proxies.

>>5042882
bean spiller

whats next, agent 3 celebrates rosh hashanna in the middle of /dog/?