Thread 5049394

You know you've made it in the animal kingdom when you have other species copy how you look just to fend off predators.

>>5049394 (OP)
mimicry is the coolest feature in the natural world

Hornet mimic hoverflies mimic hornets to deter wasps. It's a pretty ballsy move. They're very easy to spot because they fly 100x better and make a softer sound.

At what point does a mimick stop being a mimick and simply becomes a diverged species that followed convergent evolution of another species completely by accident?

I can't actually see the long term benefit of a spider larping as an ant for thousands of generations before it just becomes another ant. Like things evolving into crabs 50 times.

>>5051935
An organism is a mimic when the disguise it takes on is the direct result of another organism’s influence on the ecosystem around it. Convergent evolution is just similarities arising from similar selective pressures. Like how a mock viper is a viper mimic because that similarity enables it to take advantage of the wariness predators have of real vipers, but a death adder only resembles a viper because they have a similar lifestyle

>>5051935
Learn the basics of phylogenetics

>>5051959
>the disguise it takes on is the direct result of another organism’s influence on the ecosystem around it

But it doesn't even make sense, like those chinese leaf spiders mimicking leaves. how does a spider with a lego robotics brain observe a leaf long enough to know that even works? what could possibly drive it to that evolution?

In the case of spiders ( or other bugs ) mimicking an ant, it's happened 70+ times in other species. Never any other way around... we don't argue faux crabs are mimics of other true crabs, this can only be convergent evolution on a massive scale that just so happens to work in favor of the faux ants defense. But my point is, knowing how ant species are prone to wiping themselves out or being nuked by disease / mold, there cannot be a long-term benefit to these species larping as one very specific ant in their respective ecosystem. If a regular ant attacks it's colony, it gets killed regardless.

Would it not be more logical as a defense for more spiders to evolve social behavior as a defense against ants so they can't be singled out?

>>5053032
It is random and bugs have many offspring, and many generations, with lots of opportunities to have gene expression fucked bigtime by bacteria and viruses besides the usual, and a simple segmented, leg based body plan that is more tolerant of major genetic changes (ie: they are not fatal deformities like they would be for a mammal, which has its segments twisted around and used for weird shit and has almost 0 tolerance for further weird shit)

Evolvability is itself a trait and once you realize everything on earth is some kind of segmented worm with weird outgrowths and learn how hox gene forms babby, and how much crazy shit can happen to gametes and fertilized eggs, macroevolution makes perfect sense.

>>5053032
>how does a spider with a lego robotics brain observe a leaf long enough to know that even works?
It doesn’t. No bug knows to mimic anything, let alone through observing and learning to do it. Evolution doesn’t consciously decide what to do
>what could possibly drive it to that evolution?
predation by visual predators
>In the case of spiders ( or other bugs ) mimicking an ant, it's happened 70+ times in other species. Never any other way around
Most predators avoid ants. It doesn’t happen the other way around because there is no selective pressure for an ant to resemble something like a spider, that would just make it more vulnerable because spiders are more appealing prey to most things. The reason so many bugs have independently evolved to mimic ants is because ants are so avoided
>this can only be convergent evolution on a massive scale that just so happens to work in favor of the faux ants defense
It is convergent evolution with other mimics, but it isn’t convergent evolution with ants themselves
>But my point is, knowing how ant species are prone to wiping themselves out or being nuked by disease / mold, there cannot be a long-term benefit to these species larping as one very specific ant in their respective ecosystem
The resemblance to ants is to protect them from visual predators like lizards and jumping spiders. A disease that affects ants themselves doesn’t pose any issue to the mimic. The long term benefit is that predators leave them alone
>Would it not be more logical as a defense for more spiders to evolve social behavior as a defense against ants so they can't be singled out?
There is no logic to an unconscious process. Also that’s not why they evolved it. There are aggressive mimics that evolve to mimic the smell of ants to infiltrate colonies, but most mimic ants to not get eaten by birds, lizards, etc

What if some bug mimics wasps so hard it becomes indistinguishable

>>5050634
Are they biters?

>>5054872
Nah it's just like a large, fancy fly. I saw one once and it was pretty chill, probably thought I didn't see through its goofy faced disguise.

>>5049394 (OP)
When I see a hoverfly I think "Aww, cutie, let me hold you!"
When I see a house fly I think "Go to hell you disgusting nigger."
Why is that

>>5053032
Mimicry really fucks with my 100% rational, atheist brain. I have no problems with convergent evolution, where it's basically adaptation to the environment (usually by size, shape, mobility etc.). But mimicry, where a "weaker" species somehow evolves to copy a sophisticated visual feature and/or behavior of another, "stronger" species, where it could have evolved in countless other unrelated ways, is beyond my understanding.
Like that snake with a fake spider appendage on the tip of its tail used to bait birds. It obviously started without it, and it survived for a million or so years while evolving it, so what is even the point of it? What if, halfway through evolving it, spiders somehow went extinct?

>>5053032
>Would it not be more logical as a defense for more spiders to evolve social behavior as a defense against ants so they can't be singled out?

this is actually a really good question, only a handful of species exist amongst arachnids displaying socialness. Off the top of my head those powerline spiders in south america + anelosimus eximius and certain huntsman species are the biggest groups.

>>5055367
>Like that snake with a fake spider appendage on the tip of its tail used to bait birds. It obviously started without it, and it survived for a million or so years while evolving it, so what is even the point of it?
Caudal luring is common in snakes, especially vipers. It would’ve started like the tail of any other snake that uses caudal luring. The fake spider is just a lump of flesh and a few extra long scales, it’s not that complex a structure
>What if, halfway through evolving it, spiders somehow went extinct?
Any event catastrophic enough to make spiders extinct would definitely make snakes extinct. But even if it didn’t then not much would happen, the fake lure would just stop being selected for

>>5055491
It all comes down to a "first step" problem.
For example, white animal evolves to be black because of soot. This is understandable: either it's a neutral change that won't be eliminated, or even a partial color change to be light-gray helps with stealth.
For mimicry it's different, partial change is harmful. It wouldn't look anything like a target, and it would attract unneeded attention.

>>5055367
>>5056483
You're assuming a lot of sophistication for a glorified cat toy.

>It obviously started without it, and it survived for a million or so years while evolving it, so what is even the point of it?
It probably started with the ancestor of the snake merely developing a tic of wriggling the tip of its worm-like tail. Most birds are curious/greedy/stupid and will come peck at any prey-sized thing. After that, skin sheddings leaving excrescences on the tail or whatever turned out to be even better at attracting birds, or at attracting birds more common in its current environment.

>What if, halfway through evolving it, spiders somehow went extinct?
Spiders and other legged land-dwelling arthropods have existed for what, half a billion years at this point? You might rather ask "what if birds somehow went extinct"
And the answer is the same as for any other species hyperspecialized to a small niche: the snake would die out as an evolutionary dead-end. This happens constantly because evolution has no long-term vision.

>>5056483
>For mimicry it's different, partial change is harmful
Not really
>It wouldn't look anything like a target, and it would attract unneeded attention
The entire point is to attract attention. It would just make the caudal lure a slightly larger target

>>5049394 (OP)
Works in reverse too. I've shooed away sweat bees and hoverflies only for them to turn out to be yellowjackets.