Mark Waid just posted.
Goodbye to the biggest man in comics.
You can probably count on one hand the number of people more important to mainstream comics. Broke in at 14!!! Unbelievable
RIP to a legend
>started working at DC at the age of 14
Well /co/ what's your excuse?
YOU GET WHAT YOU FUCKING DESERVE
mods better sticky this shit
>>149222977It's not the 60s, and comic companies no longer hire teenagers for writing
>>149223028They also didn't know he was a teenager until he had started working for them
>During Shooter's tenure, he enforced a policy forbidding the portrayal of gay characters in the Marvel universe.[37][38][39] According to John Byrne, he initially had to conceal Northstar's sexuality, since Shooter personally told him that portraying a gay character would not be allowed.[40][41] Marvel nonetheless published the first gay-themed story by a mainstream comics publisher during this time, written by Shooter himself; in it, two gay men attempt to rape Bruce Banner.[39][42] Comics historian Frederick Luis Aldama says that Marvel under Shooter's tenure "was widely considered homophobic."[43]
based
>>149222920 (OP)RIP to real one.
Modern comics are shit because they didn't listen to him.
>american comic writer
>check bibliography
>all capeshit
>>149222977I'm playing video games and learning how to do a whole lotta things rn
>>149222977Child labor laws.
>>149223047Wasn't Element lad a notorious fag?
>>149223061He also facilitated the creation of a lot of non-cape books too.
>>149222959>>149222920 (OP)Losing Jim is as big of a loss for American superhero comics as losing Stan Lee and Jack Kirby was.
The world is poorer for his absence.
>>149222920 (OP)He's still alive
>>149223131OP is a faggot then.
>>149223075>rnYou need to be 18 to post here.
>>149222920 (OP)Respect. He was a big figure in the 80s, the greatest decade of comic books.
>>149222920 (OP)The last few years have not been kind to the old guard
>>149222920 (OP)GODDAMMIT NOOOOO
FIRST PAD AND NOW HIM, I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE
>>149222977Comics companies no longer accept fan submissions. That's how Shooter got his start, by sending scripts to DC.
>>149222977DC's office was several thousand miles away from me when I was 14
if I was 14 now my excuse would be that unaccompanied minors are not permitted on the WB lot because of Reasons and nobody's gonna come to work with me all day just to be my chaperone
>Mark Waid just posted
>OP doesn't post a link to said post or any other legitimate evidence whatsoever
"Yell fire in a crowded theater" troll threads are cancer and against >>>/global/rules/3
OP is a faggot.
Fulfill your civic duty to help purge this board of anarchistic, sociopathic, intellectually regressive youtube/reddit/twitter immigrant subhumans like him who are under the delusion that all of 4chan (instead of just the designated shitposting playpens like /b/, /trash/, /bant/, etc.) is a toilet by reporting this thread en masse.
Here's a link so you don't have to scroll up to the top of the page.
https://sys.4chan.org/co/imgboard.php?mode=report&no=149222920
>>149223061I'm sad he and PAD died before Gary Groth.
>>149223275nypa, do your own research, kill yourself, etc
>>149222920 (OP)Pic is him at 24 btw. They don't make men like they used to.
>>149223275You're a really annoying schizo, did you know that?
https://www.cbr.com/jim-shooter-comic-book-icon-dc-marvel-obituary/
>>149223123No, Element Lad being a fag was something the Bierbaums did because in their headcanon he was gay because his costume was pink.
How many comic book legends are left?
>>149223131>>149223136>>149223275Does nobody bother to just search to see if something is true any more? You're already on the fucking internet.
https://comicbookclublive.com/2025/06/30/jim-shooter-dies-age-73/
https://www.comicsbeat.com/jim-shooter-73-has-reportedly-died-of-esphogeal-cancer/
https://www.cbr.com/jim-shooter-comic-book-icon-dc-marvel-obituary/
Multiple outlets are reporting this now, and I don't imagine Waid would just lie about something like this for the lulz. RIP Big Jim.
Reminder that Shooter cracked the whip on the lazy hippies at Marvel and they never fucking forgave him for it.
>>149223130I think he's a rung below the likes of Lee, Kirby and Thomas in importance but it's still a big deal.
FUCK Cancer, when are they curing this shit?
>>149223328He was theorized to be a fag from very early on.
From his comments about dating a girl.
>>149223318>the acne scars made him look cooler
94156894
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>>149222920 (OP)Oh shit, is this actually real??
R.I.P. if true
I think people have a lot of rightful gripes with Jim Shooter for being a micromanaging asshole, but Marvel comics were at some of their best under his tenure and I wish he'd stayed on longer.
>>149222920 (OP)Effective immediately comics lost a legendary editor.
RIP Jim
>>149223358Too many variants
>>149223275Fuck you, you annoying faggot.
RIP Jim Shooter, the best editor Marvel ever had.
>>149223275I posted before any news articles were online to link. I figured you guys would want to know before most people would.
The source was facebook which you'd also call me a fag if I mentioned.
>>149223405So it has something in common with comic books.
>>149223275Agreed. Jim would have wanted OP to properly introduce who Jim Shooter was and what the stakes of the thread are right off the bat. Any issue could be someone's first.
>>149223426A second thread went up
>>149223385Shooter was a micromanager but he also knew how a story should be presented in order to be good and to keep the reader hooked and wanting more. The guy carefully studied what made Marvel stories more interesting and how they worked and applied that to the Legion. This style would then be copied and refined, especially once he became EIC. If you love things like Claremont's X-Men or Stern's Spider-Man or Avengers, they're all variations on or refinements of the style that Shooter pioneered in the 1960s and expected when he was EiC. In fact, I'd say that Stern is the almost perfect Shooter-style writer.
If not for Shooter, we'd never have Transformers. The scope of his legacy is monumental.
>73 years old
Is it just me or are people in comics dying most frequently in this range?
Who?
Am I suppose to know who this is?
>>149223458He was basically the Jeffrey Katzenberg of 80s Marvel comics. What made him a great businessman and made the company successful, made him the bane of all the creative 'real artist' types at marvel.
>>149223463Comics and liquor are bad for you.
>>149223459G.I. Joe as we know it almost certainly wouldn't exist either.
>>149223335The modern marvel and DC comics could use a Jim Shooter. Sadly given how corporate and politicized the industry has become, I don't see that happening.
>>149222920 (OP)Along with Stan Lee, one of the two greatest Editors in Chief there ever was or ever will be.
Rest in peace, Jim Shooter.
HOLY FUCK
MASSIVE RIP
NU-MARVEL'S CURRENT EDITORIAL COULD NEVER EVEN DREAM OF THE HEIGHTS SHOOTER REACHED
EVIDENCE BELOW
Shooter presided as Editor in chief over:
Chris Claremont and John Byrne's Uncanny X-Men
Frank Miller's Daredevil
John Byrne's Fantastic Four
Walt Simonson's The Mighty Thor
Roger Stern's Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man
Secret Wars
BIG JIM WILL ALWAYS LIVE ON
>>149222920 (OP)RIP Legend, thank you.
>>149223275>StickiedKek you got BTFO’d faggot
>>149223150Even if anon gets a job at DC?
>>149223463I think that the people that are involved in this industry have a pretty bad health. Jack Kirby died when he was 76, in 1994. But you also have guys like Ditko, 90 years old. Stan Lee was a vampire
>>149223275Thread got stickied, you might as well kill yourself... NOW
>>149222920 (OP)I thought this was Superman for a second. Rest in peace.
>>149223358>According to the National Cancer Institute, only 4% of all government-allocated cancer research funds go towards pediatric cancer researchAnd they want to cut it down even more, unfortunate.
>>149222920 (OP)that's the face of a hero
today's DC and Marvel need a guy like him now
>>149223508>Chris Claremont and John Byrne's Uncanny X-Men>Frank Miller's Daredevil>John Byrne's Fantastic Four>Walt Simonson's The Mighty Thor>Roger Stern's Avengers and Amazing Spider-ManAnd this is only the tip of the iceberg. Marvel under his tenure might have been THE greatest comics publisher to ever exist.
sad-man
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>>149223478Not really, you can go back to your gooning threads bruh
>>149222920 (OP)>stickyHell yeah
>>149223539Ditko was literally walking from an apartment to a studio(both rent controlled) every day, which also helped him stay active. He was also more social than people might think(not alot, but he wasn't a recluse)
Here's something from his walk outside his studio, btw
This makes me wonder. When old iconic comic creators die, the reaction is fairly unanimous. But what will things look like in 30 years when the more controversial creators of the last few decades die?
When Bendis or Quesada kick the bucket, I think there'll be a lot of people saying "good riddance". Which would be a bit of overreaction over some bad comic books, but it does make me wonder how the threads for those will look like.
I don’t read comics, respectfully who?
>>149222920 (OP)Have zero idea who this is but see this image posted on this board a bit so F I guess
>>149222920 (OP)>As of 2023, Shooter worked as consulting editor and freelance writer for custom comics company Illustrated MediaWell, time to update wikipedia...
>met him last year and Heroescon
>could have met him again two weeks again but got sick
shit
>>149223587Respectfully, read the thread
The highlights are here and we're sub-100 posts
Well shit. Farewell to a legend.
>>149223539Kirby famously loved his cigars. Stan Lee claimed to have just used cigarettes as an accessory and never inhaled.
Thank you mods for the sticky.
>>149223582>When Bendis or Quesada kick the bucket, I think there'll be a lot of people saying "good riddance".If it happens in 30 years? I'm not even joking when I say this, but no one will remember them.
>>149223582It’s unfortunate how prioritized our negative energy is towards people who simply made pieces of media we didn’t like. That’s something I’ve been trying to get better at.
>>149223508BASED STICKY
MODS KEEP THIS ONE LONGER THAN PAD, HE SHOULD'VE STAYED LONGER BUT OH WELL
Also Titania, and especially Volcana are....HOT.
I think I should probably read LoSH, his Valiant, some of the Starbrand stuff now. Also I've only heard and seen Gyrich in some books and what he does in Avengers but Shooter making up a military guy to thin out the Avengers like he did with Marvel itself is kinda funny.
>>149222977I'm not a white man in an era where white men could just rock up anywhere and get anything with a firm handshake and some confidence
>>149223508Wait, was he really 6'7"? There are some legitimate criticisms one could make of him, but nobody could say he wasn't a chad with that face and that height.
Also
>Eyes: Two>Hair: YesClassic.
>>149222920 (OP)Oh shit, the only time I saw him was during the Toronto Fan Expo of 2017, he had a folder with his stuff, but I couldnt stop looking at his cheeks.
Can I get a QRD on his impact on comics in general?
>>149223582>But what will things look like in 30 years when the more controversial creators of the last few decades dieNo stickies unless the mod currently awake was a simp of them.
>>149223606Quesada is immortalized through one more day
>>149223221rip in piece to a real one
>>149222920 (OP)Damn. Was never that familiar with his work, but his editorial presence and the stories about him were a sight to behold. Feels like the last remnants of Marvel's (and the industry in general) soul are fading away every month.
RIP.
>>149223587So imagine if Walt Disney wasn't around at the start of the animation industry, but instead got his own cartoon in the 60s as a 14 year old and went on to run a studio during its golden age.
>>149223582>Bendis is dead.>Who?>You know, Bendis?>Brian Michael Bendis?>The comic writer?>Yes?>He's dead.>He's dead?>Yes.
>some literal who dies
>it gets stickied
god /co/ sucks
>>149223660It's taking attention away from all the more worthwhile /co/ threads, like, uh.. uhhh....
>>149223478Go watch Adventure Time or some other woke slop you dumb tranny zoomer
>>149223673A low-quality gooning thread died for this sticky . . .
shooter
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Goddamn. I didn't even know he was sick. Dude was the boss.
>>149223582When Slott dies I'm throwing a block party.
>>14922355780s DC mogs all those books
>>149223608At least this one didn't need a struggle to get up.
>helps to create a highly ambitious project for Marvel in the late 80s with New Universe
>gets shafted
>happens three more times with Valiant, Defiant, and Broadway
Really sucks that the guy never got a fair shake and was pretty much ostracized from the industry by people who either didn't understand him or had something to gain by removing him
>>149223616The Edward James Olmos skin unfortunately was a point against the chadness
>>149223463Most of them are unhealthy as a rule and given that he died of esophageal cancer I'd assume he was a pretty big smoker (as most of them were).
>>149223616Yeah dude was a giant. His coffin must be a bar table. I only joke because I feel he would appreciate it.
>>149223508>>149223557This makes me realize that Marvel is probably, to this day, living off of Shooter's legacy. Marvel's overwhelming dominance over DC, and their subsequent presence in the public consciousness, is due to Shooter's guidance over them. The stories Shooter presided over basically formed the groundwork for the MCU, leading to the vise-grip Marvel has on the public's entire imagination of superheroes.
Marvel, to this day, basically recycles plotlines and concepts from Shooter's era, and brings up things that happened when Shooter ran the company.
Marvel's current relationship to Jim Shooter is basically Apple's current relationship to Steve Jobs. Even in dismissal and death, Marvel lives off his corpse.
>>149223572>He was also more social than people might think(not alot, but he wasn't a recluse)Yeah I'm aware. I dislike the narrative that he was strictly a grumpy and reclusive man who hated everyone. People would send him many letters and he would eventually answer them. And even answer phone calls. He even was in good terms with his family. His public image is mostly based on misinformation
>>149223587A tall man who wrote a very homophobic Hulk story. Obviously responsible for some of Marvel's best comics
>>149223723It was politically motivated. He brought common sense back to a marvel captured by the politics of the 60s hippie movement, and the hippies resented and hated him forever for it.
>>149223752They absolutely are. Big Jim brought marvel to their absolute height.
>>149222920 (OP)I actually liked his New Universe series. Rest in peace Jim.
>>1492229is the stuff he wrote at 14 worth reading?
>>149222920 (OP)After his response to OMD I was sincerely hoping he'd see some change for the better before his passing, obviously that's not a priority in the grand scheme but it would have been a sign of good things.
Alas, here we remain, RIP.
Shooter
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Fuck me. RIP Big Jim, now there's no one left who could possibly save Marvel
>>149223748You know what issue this is in?
It's kinda weird, but I like to pick up issues with funny things like this in the letters column.
>>149223003Was he the one who signed off on the story about Carol getting pregnant?
>>149223753It really stinks that someone telling people to do their damn jobs is somehow controversial
F
I hope you're chewing out work shy hippies somewhere Jim
>>149223582I think most people will be footnotes at best. Sure, people like Gaiman, Ellis, Millar, McFarlane, Jim Lee, Johns, Bendis and Ennis will be remembered as key figures of the last 30 years in comics. But no one's gonna give a shit when someone like Dan Slott kicks the bucket.
>>149222920 (OP)RIP
Wonder how John Byrne feel about this.
>>149223775Well the funny thing is nobody really knows how that story happened really but ultimately he was the one who took the blame in any case.
>>149223753I'm not going to say Shooter wasn't a bit of a homophobe, but can you really say that story itself is when it was based on his own experience when he was living at a YMCA?
>>149223384>game knows gameMark, you crybaby beta faggot, you will never be a fraction of the man that Jim was.
>>149223786Jim would've taken the blame anyway. The buck stops with him
>>149223458Shooter was a fixer - he was essential when things needed fixing but, as many creators have said, he devolved into a micromanager, a nitpicker and a control freak when things were going smoothly. Probably why he kept getting ousted from his positions down the line.
>>149223810That was basically his logic for the whole mess.
>>149223796Yeah he based it on accidents that happened to him and a friend haha
>>149223458>I'd say that Stern is the almost perfect Shooter-style writer.Stern's basically one of the best COMICS writers anyways. Put him on anything and he'll do it right and he'll do it well. Oh god he's 74.
>>149223616This
>>149223690 is another good one.
>>149223478John Byrne?
>>149223508Shooter also handed Budiansky and O'Neil the Transformers comic treatment he devised. I don't know too much about who created what but he surely contributed to the overall plot. O'Neil came up with Optimus's name.
He also presided over the legendary Hama G.I. Joe run as well. So that's another set of franchises he influenced.
Finally he created Julia Carpenter, Beyonder, and Parasite as other big original characters of his. Julia especially since he got that costume from Randy Schueller in pic rel, which we all know led to the Lethal Protector himself.
>>149223622He set in motion a lot of the good and bad present in comics today, some of it knowingly and a lot unknowingly. He made a lot of kino and set in motion a loy of kino. Secret Wars 2, Avengers 200, and New Universe were the only clunkers he was involved in that I know of.
>>149223815He was a wartime editor. He had no idea what to do or why he was doing it whenever it was peacetime.
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in peace, Jim. You were too pure for this world.
I hope we get a storytime of some of Shooter's stuff like when PAD died. At least the Sun-Eater/Fatal Five story from Adveture Comics and the Korvac Saga.
>>149223838I bet Marvel stationary these days doesn't have Spider-Man on it.
>>149223275Backseat mods like you should get raped to death with broken bottles.
>>149223753Ditko's reputation was twisted by journos who didn't get and/or like that he didn't want to do interviews.
>>149223047more like based retard.
>>149223690lmao. A lot of overcompensation energy here.
>>149223838>John Byrne?He quite famously disliked Claremont and Shooter stepping on his contributions. One Colossus page really broke his camel.
Thinking about storytiming Avengers #200 later
Should I do it here or in a different thread?
>>149223883Also there was a lot of bias against Ditko from the very beginning for his admiration for Ayn Rand.
>>149223539They're gonna have to bury this dude in a piano crate.
>>149223920Different thread.
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in peace, legend.
>>149223833Right but he learned under Shooter. All of those guys like him, Gruenwald, DeFalco, even ones like Claremont and DeMatteis and the like did.
>>149223920Maybe wait a little bit. It would be disrespectful to storytime one of the mans mistakes so soon after he died.
>>149223918No yeah I know. I was making the joke that all the dumbass anons in this thread trying to shit on Shooter was just John Byrne. At least there isn't an effigy they're trying to burn.
>>149223887Anon is envious of Shooter's ability to juggle and to also not care about what other people think.
>>149223948Let's be real, if Millar kicked the bucket the catalog would be treating it as if SDCC came early
>>149223877Harsh, but true
>>149223948Honestly just wait for SOP week
The Carolpost was just a joke anyway
>>149222920 (OP)F
HE WAS A STRAIGHT SHOOTER
>>149223756he was a straight up asshole who never cared who he pissed off, no one wanted to work with him regardless of politics but the politics definitely didn't help
Rest in peace tard wrangler
RIP to a real one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5nyn_lJJ-8
I don't normally storytime capeshit but if you got any quick recs, I could see if I could do it for this thread (it'd be a sin for this to be yet ANOTHER comic sticky thread that couldn't reach the bump limit)
>>149223998....okay yeah I can see Shooter definitely a libertarian and wow, Eric July beat Marvel to it
That's kind of sad
>>149224002Adventure Comics #346, his first published work.
>>149223980What makes one a great businessman, usually makes them a very difficult person to work with. See also Katzenberg for Disney and Dreamworks.
IMG_5885
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RIP
Damn, it was amazing getting to meet him while I could. This was from my one and only time going to a convention.
dog
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>>149223047Holy mother of based
Genuinely asking and meaning no disrespect, what did this guy do to be beloved? just to be informed on him.
Damn. RIP, Big Jim. I guess nobody's coming to save us now.
>>149223920At least have the decency to storytime something people liked. Do one of his earlier Avengers stories, or something from his Legion run.
>>149223047>Hated racism>But also hated gaysWas Shooter religious by any chance?
>>149224034Kept the hippie faggots at Marvel in line
>>149223815his biggest problem is that he basically had no off switch. He was incapable of easing off the throttle when a "my way or the highway" approach was no longer necessary, and other editors would have just let things be. Whipping everyone into shape is a good thing when they need it, but when the skies are blue and clear, relentlessly cracking the whip just damages morale and alienates the troops.
>>149223678>You now realize that when one of the fags that created any of that slop croaks, we'll have a week (if not a month) long sticky
>>149224027Damn, I went to a swap meet earlier this year and someone was selling the same thing for around $200. Can't imagine how much it's going to go for now.
>>149222920 (OP)Goodbye man. You will be remembered.
>>149224034Quality control
He was strict, harsh, and might have screwed over one of your favorite characters/runs but it was under the need of the greater pragmatic good
Avengers #200 not withstanding
IIRC there was a lot of office drama at the time with junkies and shit so Jim tard wrangling them made Marvel the better company
I kneel
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>>149223752>Marvel's current relationship to Jim Shooter is basically Apple's current relationship to Steve Jobs. Even in dismissal and death, Marvel lives off his corpse.It is in a way except Jim actually knew how to create the products he was selling and was very good at it.
>>149224034He oversaw a lot of Marvel's best work. But, arguably more important to 4chan, he hated gay people and made the liberals who worked under him miserable.
No way, glad I git his autograph a couple years ago. He was so damn tall.
>>149224070I hope so. I have a lot of dancing/celebration gifs.
>>149224034He was a great Editor in Chief that presided over the company during its greatest years in the 80s. He was strict on deadlines, strict on continuity (he was one of the last EICs to care), and he kept some of the more retarded ideas in the minds of their creators where they belonged.
>>149224034You know how people say they could write better than the people in the industry? When Shooter was 14 he wrote DC a letter saying that, and then proved it. He created a number of characters there, wrote several iconic moments like the first race between Superman and Flash, and wrote stories with a degree of depth when the rest of the company was happy churning out slop just good enough to hold a seven year old's attention for 15 minutes.
Then a turned 18 and went to Marvel to do be an editor and do the things people associate with him.
>>149224083>IIRC there was a lot of office drama at the time with junkiesFirst time hearing this. I can see why he was needed
Shooter era is the best period of Marvel.
No one ever identified the driver of the car that ran over Bill Mantlo...
>>149224034He was an absolute professional who ensure strict quality control and was responsible by some of the greatest stories in comics history by doing so.
>>149224141Yeah I also think there were some new age religious cult types as well
The 70's were weird
I hung out and had drinks with Shooter at a comic con about 15 years ago. He wasn't selling anything, wasn't charging for autographs, just sat at this table with a large album full of all his DC/Marvel/Valiant memorabilia. Whenever someone came up to talk to him, he'd flip to that in the book and tell all these behind the scene stories. I spent hours there talking, even after the convention closed, about his editorship, New Universe, Solar, etc.
I had always heard horror stories about the guy cause the writers/artist under him were petty and talk to much, but hands down he was the coolest person in the industry I've ever spoken with - RIP Jim
>>149222920 (OP)Forgive me, I do not read cape comics.
Who was he?
>>149222920 (OP)It's so fucking over for comics
>>149224074Unless it was signed like Anon's it was overpriced. It usually runs about $150.
>>149223047This is actually untrue. This policy never technically existed (though a partially similar one did). It SHOULD have existed though. And NO ONE "considered" it "homophobic". That is pure revisionism.
>>149223796>>149223823>In 1969 Shooter was accepted into New York University, but after graduating from high school he successfully applied for a job at Marvel Comics. Unable to pursue both his studies and work for Marvel, he decided against going to New York University and quit working for DC as well.[17] While at Marvel he worked as an editor and occasional co-plotter, taking his residence at the YMCA, but after only three weeks his financial situation compelled him to give up the post and return home to PittsburgIN THE SWELTERING SUMMER OF '69
>>149224002The Green Lantern comic where he literally shoots himself in the foot.
>>149223384>game knows gameWhat an unbelievable faggot.
The GOAT who gave Marvel its best years, both sales and quality-wise.
>It shoud be noted that early in the sales year Marvel had instituted a policy of canceling any continuing newsstand color title featuring whose average per-issue sales were less than 125,000 copies. It wasn't because titles selling less than 125,000 were unprofitable. According to Jim Shooter, Marvel's editor-in-chief at the time, break-even sales for newsstand titles were just above 80,000 copies an issue. The reason for the new policy was that resources were considered better spent on new titles with hopefully more commercial appeal.
I hadn't heard of Shooter before browsing /co/ since I've never been too interested in comic books, let alone Marvel ones, but I've respected him ever since you fags introduced him to me. Believe he created the original concept for Transformers as well (not counting the original Takara toys)
Godspeed, you magnificent bastard
>>149224034When he was editor in chief he did his job and expected the same of others.
Naturally this would not stand and John Byrne, who once banned someone from his forum for attending a funeral without his permission, held a party in celebration.
I'm coloring his dissenters admittedly, but only because they have a neon palette.
>>149224043That was a common trend back then, keep in mind the Klan was very active back then
Don't forget that even if he thought the writers were morons he did stand up for them when it came to royalties and rights over their own works.
>>149223061He was management, you absolute faggot. His writing work was relatively minimal.
>>149224204What happened to Bill was not funny
I'd expect Jim's ghost to still have a conscience
>>149224211Jumped the gun
>*in celebration of him being fired.
>>149224215Weirdly enough some writers did the opposite, like John Byrne.
>>149223752>Marvel's current relationship to Jim Shooter is basically Apple's current relationship to Steve Jobs. Even in dismissal and death, Marvel lives off his corpse.This is such a perfect analogy that I'm surprised that I never saw it used before. That's EXACTLY what Shooter was: The Steve Jobs of comics.
>>149224065I assume that part of it was because he was the liaison between the suits and creatives and as Marvel started growing dominant in the secod half of his tenure and the pressure was there from the suits for more money and multimedia shit while he's getting blamed for screwing over Kirby despite trying to fight for better pay and royalties and shit, he woud up cracking. And for him, cracking meant coming down hard on the creators because he didn't really know what else to do. Especially because by the last few years, Jim Galton kept wanting to expand the line (but also wanted production costs down) while Shooter wanted less books because he thought that expanding was causing the overall quality of the books to fall.
There's the story about him and Romita meeting with one of the New World execs shortly after the purchase where they argue about how they should cut down the line for those exact reasons and the exect just goes "well we're not doing that, actually we want ten new books" and Shooter, according to Romita, looked like he wanted to kill himself. I think that embodies why he went like he did. He wanted to maintain quality but it was hard doing that while trying to go along with the demands of the suits to put out more books and it caused him to go overboard on his worst traits because of the pressure he was under.
>>149223582Marvel and DC will be dead before any of them are.
>>149223756>>149223980It had nothing to do with politics. He told everyone that if they missed a deadline they were fired. They HATED having to treat comics like an actual job.
>>149223539Ramona Fradon lived up to 97 and died after like one month of retirement
>>149223582kek I'm sure there are plenty of people on xitter saying "good riddance" to Shooter
>>149223998Fuck off you worthless cum stain.
>>149224122We need a guy like him now more than ever. Someone who would really slap down guys like slott or bendis
>>149224301Someone already posted the image but
>Open note to Joe Quesada and the Marvel creative staff: If you don't understand the who the characters in your care are, call me and I'll clue you in. Yes, that's a snarky comment. Yes, I'm that appalled by the thing
>>149224270>shit while he's getting blamed for screwing over KirbyWhen he quit marvel, Kirby seemed to hate Lee, John Byrne and Roy Thomas more.
I don't think he threw shit at shooter
>>149222920 (OP)I am thankful I was able to apologize to him even if only through email
>>149223489Were villains in toyline original franchises a thing before Cobra?
>>149224221>>149224149>I think that we comics people, fans every one of us, tend to see things in terms of good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains. It usually isn’t that black and white. Bill did some things that were very wrong for reasons known only to him and incomprehensible to me. He did many good things, too. Whatever mistakes he made, whatever flaws he had, his talent was a boon to our field of endeavor. He deserves a great deal of credit, respect and admiration. He certainly did not deserve the tragic accident that befell him.>Once again, here is a link to a page where you can PayPal donations to help with Bill’s care;_;
>>149224346I have to wonder
Would any of Shooter's tactics work today or has times changed too much?
>>149224215This is the part that I never got. He did more for creator rights and making sure everyone "got theirs" than a lot of people before him. Yeah you were gonna have to work for them, you were gonna have to tow the company line but you were gonna get it. Creators, and not saying they never had any reason to be mad at stuff, just always seem to have this insane idea that they didn't need to do their jobs. Like any other line of work you'd get shit canned.
>>149224194It was signed.
>>149223047When he went to NYC at 14 he stayed at the YMCA
I don't approve but I understand
>>149224354Not sure! That's a good point.
>>149223061He founded Epic to cover non-capeshit you fucking tourist
>>149224342Who DOESN'T hate John Bryne?
>>149224367You kidding? Any editor that so much as poo poo'd an idea and made sure someone had to keep a deadline and they'd be all on social media whining about what a slave driver her was. For as much as creatives then were whiners today it's FAR worse
>>149224367If you fired LITERALLY EVERYONE then you could make it work. Just not at DC or Marvel. They're too far gone at this point.
>>149223047based to the max
RIP Jim. I understand why he was a sticking point for the creatives but he led arguably the best age of Marvel and was the reason the lights stayed on. Godspeed.
When Jim Shooter got to write the Legion book again in 1976, he wrote profiles for all of the members- and perhaps most interestingly the sex lives of most of the characters are a part of the profiles
https://www.legionworld.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=592096#Post592096
>Saturn Girl - is a wild, wild woman in bed, who undoubtedly has occasionally accompanied Lightning Lad on his forays into Dream Girl's boudoir.
>Triplicate Girl/Duo Damsel - there were some jokes made about the two for one bit long before B.B. courted D.D. -- probably the Legion guys were afraid of messing with D.D. because of the razzing they'd get, werd sex humor and suspicion of troilistic perversion, etc. I'm sure D.D. got some funny looks occasionally from the Legionnaires. A girl with a power so weirdly suited to weird sex (and not much else) has reason to wonder what's aid behind her backs.
>Chameleon Boy- he can identify with beauty the other Legionnaires misss. He could turn up with a shaggy, horned alien chick as easily as Elwinda. Liberal, he is -- even philosophical. And probably a little kinky.
>Star Boy- dumb. And probably hung like a horse, which will be the deciding factor in Dream Girl's settling down with him
>Shrinking Violet - She gets all her weird sex from Duplicate Boy and waiting and worrying just makes it sweeter.
>Ultra Boy- makes gentle, tender (and expert) love to Phantom Girl and saves his occasional forays into the bizarre for someone less angelic to him -- say, Dream Girl.
>Light Lass a good match for Timber Wolf when who needs a non-dominant, pleasant and patient girl. I think she is actually very feminine. She used to wear high heels!
>Dream Girl - is dumb. Her power is more or less hit or miss in value , and I'm sure her main service to the Legion is in her quarters after dark.She needs constant reassurance of her value,...the only way to get psychologically stroked is to allow herself to be physically stroked.
>>149223047>Le based!!I hate you election faggots so goddamn much.
>>149224043Do you imagine Atheists hated blacks and loved gays back then?
>>149224043He didn't really hate gays, it's just that he feared gay stuff wouldn't be marketable enough for comics during the 80s. The anti-racism stuff didn't really bother no one then.
>>149224346Might be the best bit of writing in Marvel's history
>>149222920 (OP)>i thought mark waid diedthanks for getting my hopes up, OP
>>149224130>Then a turned 18 and went to Marvel to do be an editor and do the things people associate with him.He worked as an editor for Marvel for less than a month. He was broke and getting paid shit so he left comics completely to do advertising work. He likely would have never gone back to comics if he hadn't done an interview with a fanzine which got him an offer to come back to DC to write Superman and the Legion again. But he was treated like shit there so left to join Marvel in 1976 and got lucky that the shitty editorial situation and Lee moving to L.A. opened up the path for him to become EIC with minimal interference (at first, at least).
>>149224367Marvel today is a club of idiots who WISH they were anything like the creatives there during the 70s but are basically people writing paid fanfiction (and I say that to indicate the quality of their writing). Any attempt to break that up and get back to good writing would be met with extreme hostility.
>>149224406>Dream Girl - is dumb. Her power is more or less hit or miss in value , and I'm sure her main service to the Legion is in her quarters after dark.She needs constant reassurance of her value,...the only way to get psychologically stroked is to allow herself to be physically stroked.
>>149224354He-Man was from around that time, and was made as an answer to Star Wars.
>>149224164Yeah, I keep seeing that if you were aroud him at a con he'd be more than happy to talk your ear off with stories about the old days.
>>149224262But he died of cancer, not ligma.
>>149224367You could do it the the writers. They aren't talented enough to go work some where else (like write movie script or novel)
But then the editor would have to be talented and do work by FIXING the shitty scripts and ideas that writers give him
>>14922442080s Marvel Bullpen
>Look Chris, ya just can't give Mystique a fucking cock. All right?>You're stifling creative freedom, Jim!>I WILL STIFLE MY FOOT IN YOUR ASS, BRYNE, IF YOU DON'T SHUT THE FUCK UP!!
>>149223431Holy fuck anon that's amazing
>>149224211>who once banned someone from his forum for attending a funeral without his permissionEvery time I think I've heard all the ridiculous Byrne stories, a new one crops up.
>>149222920 (OP)Red Pill a poor dumb fag on Jim Shooter.
Imagine having to work under Mort Weisenger and get called a faggot by that notorious prick and then go on to work as an editor in chief and deal with petty office drama like having to fire Peter David because one of your editors (Owsley) hired him from the sales team and other writers/editors got mad this happened which then enrages the editor (Owsley) who you kinda get along with but also put on a Spidey book which then leads to more drama and Owsley himself dealing with a lot of shit. Being the chief didn't sound easy but he did probably the best anybody could do.
PAD still ended up defining Hulk in the end anyway, lol.
Still unsure of how much Owsley and Shooter fucked up on each end but it is fascinating.
Here's a joke memo Owsley sent to Shooter.
>>149224354Yes, though not super common. the 70's Joe line had alien villains, and the Big Jim at Mattel had some villains.
I know Micronauts had villains as well, though that was adapted for Marvel comics, I think the villains were already made up
>>149224445>ligmaWho the hell is Steve Jobs?
>comic shit
Boring!!!
/co/ has been cartoon turf since the release of Gravity Falls and Star Vs
>>149223582I'm gonna be frank
The only comic creators I can see whose death would cause a sticky to reach bump limit are Alan Moore, Rob Liefeld, and Ken Penders.
Not Simonson
Not Miller
Not Millar
Not Ennis
Not Ellis
Not Bendis
Not McFarlane
Not Busiek
Not Kirkman
Not Mignola
Not Morrison
But those three simply because they're the ones who the secondaries, casuals, and outside observers (who outnumber us) know about the most through second hand discussion and memes
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>>149222920 (OP)He is Jump editor born in wrong place
>>149224490>the 70's Joe line had alien villains,Huh, weird
Did they sell poorly?
I know Hasbro just expected kids to play with the original ARAH Joes and didn't think they'd bother with an actual enemy to fight
>>149224504What is /co/ short for?
>>149224083>>149224141Ann Nocenti was clearly one of the junkies yet she was not only allowed to stay but was put on a pedestal as "that one token female superhero comics writer". Though that was probably a bit after Shooter's itme.
>>149224504>LoonaAbsolutely disgusting, gtfo casual
>>149224428I was simplifying and omitting the time he wasn't in comics to emphasize that he was already very noteworthy both at a young age and before moving to his more influential career.
>>149222977The fact that its current year +25. The beauty of these budding industries were that there were no rules or standards to get in so they were looking for anybody who was willing to put in the work, and those people would end up building the entire foundation of what we see today. Now however every major industry is filled with gatekeepers and people who """"""""know""""""" what it takes to make it into any industry and set a bunch of arbitrary rules. A 14 year old now would have to have already made a hit comic book series to get a shot at getting in.
Not posting this as an excuse for anons not to try pushing for your dreams, its just that were playing a different game now where you basically gotta rebuild the wheel cause most of the gatekeepers are fucking shit up.
>>149224484Why is every other story of Marvel's 70s/80s staff just taking the piss out of each other?
>>149224420>The anti-racism stuff didn't really bother no one then.Didn't he want a LOSH hero to be black but was denied because it'd negatively affect sales?
Wasn't Franklin in Peanuts a big deal for the time?
>>149224359I didn't realize that Shooter and Mantlo had some kind of beef. What happened there?
>>149223608Volcana taught me I liked big women
RIP Jim Shooter. It took a strong man, and a strong stomached man, to ride the bronco that was Marvel Comics back then. May he find good coffee in heaven.
>>149224529Ann has looks.
>>149224484Damn, I didn't realize Priest was always based.
>>149224490>I know Micronauts had villains as well, though that was adapted for Marvel comics, I think the villains were already made upThe Acroyears which were also the villains in the original Microman toyline but Mantlo reimagined Acroyear as a hero which got carried over through later depictions in the West (outside of a Robot Chicken sketch) while in Japan, they're still firmly a villain whenever they do show up
>>149224412I mean, Billy Graham?
>>149224406>matter eater lad>Shooter: A student, a scholar, a leader type, but not in the Legion. He is heroic and loyal and dedicated and intelligent and clever and too valuable to be out of place in the Legion. As a Legionnaire he brought up the rear and his valuable qualities were largely wasted in a context where they were not in demand. One doesn't negotiate with Mordru. He is a fine person who had to come from behind, in the sense of having a dismal background, to succeed -- he has, and willHe really is his self insert
>>149222920 (OP)I didn't know how good we had it. The 80's Marvel I grew up on was different and exciting because of him. Valiant was great because of his vision. Thanks Jim. The best Straight Shooter we've ever had!
>>149224529She started writing books while he was still EiC. Being weird's fine as long as you deliver everything on time.
>>149224406How old are they again?
Don't let twitter see this
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in piece big guy.
>>149224505I could see Ennis getting to the bump limit, but only because of pro vs anti-Ennis shitflinging
>>149223328They actually didn't even get to make Element Lad gay; they made his girlfriend trans/de transition back to her make form and were banned from getting them back together as a gay couple
>>149224541Too many immigrants, too many shitters in positions of power holding people back. Talent has a lot more obstacles, but all is not lost - GO FORTH CREATORS!!!
>>149224505Stonetoss, Dobson, etc kicking the bucket would probably sooner fill up a sticky than anyone there
>>149224464Cockrum was the Mystique futa guy
There are some recent videos on Youtube of Jim criticizing the shit writing and wokeslop on some comic con. He made some good points.
RIP Jim.
>>149224529>that one token female superhero comics writerShe's also the only good one Marvel's ever had
What's up with /co/ having so many newfaggots all of a sudden? Can we get out board split please.
>>149224603Being weird was her best feature. It's moreso that I think her stories were pretty heavy-handed and get generally overrated for the novelty factor of being done by a female writer.
>>149222920 (OP)I guess he's Jim Shooted now
>>149224622>Element Lad - Jan Arrah>Shooter: Hmm. An introvert who covers with snappy patter! Could be gay, who knows? He is confident, almost arrogant. He has a right to feel very special, and his is an overwhelming power.>Bierbaums: Came out of a society that had to teach their offspring from infancy not to turn their playmates into molybdenum anytime they get into a fight over the tinker toys. So he's a youth of vast discipline and spirituality. That's meant all these years he's been secretly, methodically dealing with the unspeakable horror of Roxxas' slaughter, coping in his own intensely private way. That's meant there's such disconnect between Jan's physical impulses and what his mind allows him to act upon, that questions of sexuality (yes, he's gay) are almost irrelevant.
>>149224561Mantlo got Marvel in hot water with Harlan Ellison because one of his Hulk stories was basically plagiarized from one of Ellison's stories.
>>149224504Piss off you pathetic waste of semen.
>>149222920 (OP)Jim was the fucking man. The last true visionary editor marvel had.
God bless sir. Rest in peace.
>>149224467We need the story behind this.
>>149224505Millar will be noticed because at least people will remember him as the creator of Kick-Ass and Kingsman.
Ennis, because he made the Boys and because casuals absolutely loathe Crossed.
Kirkman, because like it or not the Walking Dead was a big piece of pop culture in the 2010s. And mayyybe Invincible.
>>149224610Honestly I barely see capeshitters seethe over Ennis here compared to say comic twitter which is full of zoomers going "EEWWWWW" like schoolgirls whenever someone posts The Boys or Crossed
>>149223960You're not wrong
>>149224676>>149224681>casuals absolutely loathe CrossedYou don't have to be a casual to hate it. Just having a speck of taste is enough.
Marvel peak when he's in charge. After that, they went downhill
>>149224484The Bob Layton thing always cracks me up. This is how Layton looked like in the 80s
If you're a Transformers fan, Mark Bright(who died last year) painted the Shockwave cover that's the best Transformers image every made.
>>149224639Louise Simonson and Jo Duffy were also good and made up the talented woman-writer trio of Shooter's Marvel.
>>149224435The various Legion writers hated Dream Girl because she hit on Lightning Lad in an early story so she was a slut as far as they were cocerned, also because her powers weren't really fit for action stories. But she was always popular with the fans which culminated in them voting her as leader around the time of the Great Darkness Saga in revenge for the writers portraying Wildfire like shit when he'd been voted leader previously. Basically "oh, you had characters shit on a guy we liked because you personally hated him? Well we're voting the cahracter you REALLY hate as leader because fuck you."
RIP Jim, you tried to bring order in world of chaos. Your contribution will not be forgotten in the comic world and perhaps, someone will come to attempt to rein in the errors of today.
>>149222920 (OP)We lost a real one
>>149224629>Too many immigrantsnot in comics kek, they stay in their country where American money goes further
>>149224594Nah
Starbrand was
>>149224676Invincible in the 2020's has more memes than The Walking Dead in the 2010's but regardless, I don't see their deaths hitting a bump limit.
/co/ is one of the more active boards but it's slower than /v/ and /a/, has also slowed down drastically in the past few years, AND the comic side is a minority.
Kirkman, Ennis, and Millar dying would have attention but it wouldn't be a huge deal specifically here the same way someone whose notoriety transcends comics as an audience would.
>>149224687Yeah sure but people narrow Ennis as "Cranky Irish guy who hates superheroes and religion"
Which yeah is accurate but he's done a lot more as well
>>149224658>Harlan’s damages, by statute, would have been in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he had us dead to rights. But, he said he’d settle for the same money as Bill was paid to “write” the script, an acknowledgement, plus a lifetime subscription to everything we ever published. Done. Thank you, Harlan.I'm betting this also led to his writing some Hulk and Daredevil.
>>149224550>Didn't he want a LOSH hero to be black but was denied because it'd negatively affect sales?Yes, Ferro Lad. Him being denied it led to him deciding to kill off Ferro Lad in a heroic sacrifice in protest which wound up being one of the single most influential superhero stories ever written.
>>149224576The character that Mojo transformed into Spiral? That's Ann. As in, Art Adams drew her to exactly resemble Ann and Claremont wrote her as Ann.
>>149224561Mantlo was convinced Shooter was out to get him, which he probably was since it was Shooter who had to deal with other writers like Barry Windsor-Smith and Harlan Ellison complaining about Mantlo ripping them off on top of him thinking Mantlo was just mediocre at best anyway.
>Shooter barely lived to see his right call on Nightcrawler's parentage get overturned for no reason
>>149224741There is a weird feeling about that.
>>149224707>also because her powers weren't really fit for action stories.Various members of the Legion have this problem, for example MEL power is strong but he lacks secondary ones to put his mouth for good use.
>>149224545People were less sensitive. Well they were sensitive and pissy but if you did something to piss them off, they'd just retaliate by drawing you as a spineless clown in their comic or something instead of going around and claiming you're a nazi rapist who should be unpersoned.
>>149224730>Lifetime subscriptionGod damn
>>149224301>"Shut the fuck up, Byrne."
I'm glad I met him. Putting some gentleness to the rumors anon creates makes me feel better.
I met him last April and again this April. He was so cool to talk to.
>>149224172You also don't read the fucking thread before posting you faggot
>>149224722Both are, Matter Eater Lad parents even waste all his money gambling.
>>149224522>In some alternate universe, Jim Shooter oversee a Marvel Team Up issue with Spider-Man & City Hunter.
>>149224634>mfw Dobson dying would get him stickies across half the site
>>149224561>>149224658Besides the Ellison story, Shooter says Mantlo would swipe other stories, with another big issue being that Mantlo saw Barry windsor-Smith's Hulk backstory that explained a history of abuse as a child by his father. He saw pages of it and depending how you saw it, either decided to implement that into his run figuring it was fair game since it was going to be introduced later, or just plain decided to take the story.
BWS was insulted by this and would leave Marvel due to it, taking the story with him and reworking it over the next 40 years into a graphic novel.
>>149224206Kesel was kind of a bastard for that but I laughed my ass off at the mockery of Star Brand lifting the oil tanker while saying "I have the power to create a NEW UNIVERSE" at the time
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>>149224025Okay, gonna start
>>149224668Not sure if it's the same, but there was a story that really shows how weird Byrne is.
>Well-known forum member dies>Everyone learns the forum member lived with his elderly mother and was her only financial support>Bunch of them pitch in and raise a bunch of money for the lady>There's a thread explaining someone went to the funeral and presented the money to the old lady as a gift from the John Byrne forums>Byrne finds out>Goes fucking ballistic over it, because apparently it was done without his consent and they made it seem as if he had a part in it>Bunch of people get banned over itAnd well, there's also that story about a forum member debating with him, and taking a few days off because his mom died... Only for Byrne to say his mom dying isn't an actual excuse for failing to answer in the thread.
>>149224211I love John for all the good things he did but an artist going blind from cataracts is some fucking karma right there
>>149224206>Guy Gardner embrasses Starbrand
>>149224762>if you did something to piss them off, they'd just retaliate by drawing you as a spineless clown in their comic or something instead of going around and claiming you're a nazi rapist who should be unpersoned.Shooter going all-out on roasting Steve Gerber in Secret Wars II.
>>149224592Superstar billy graham three time world champ in AWA and heavy weight champion in WWF? One of the biggest names in 1970s wrestling? THAT billy graham?
I don't know man
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>>149222920 (OP)>that Legion issue about the dead beat dad who takes his kids money ouch Shooter
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>>149224829Gerber was a very unique man
>>149224470Read the fucking thread you retard
>>149224208>The GOAT who gave Marvel its best years, both salesNo, that was Tom DeFalco who presided over the bubble era of 1987 to 1994 that saw recorded-breaking sales fueled by speculators. Shooter set the stage for that, though.
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Jim Shooter gave Marvel a gift and a curse with creating Events (with Mattel) via Secret wars crossover.
Events are great when in moderation. Overdoing them turns them into cancer like Chris Claremont has said before.
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>>149224796That GN would have been such a game-changed for the Hulk as a character that the editor really would be obliged to make the main Hulk writer of the time aware it was coming. If that writer then tried to beat the GN to the punch, that should have been the editor's job to say no, or pass the buck to the EIC if it got too heated.
And to be fair, there were a number of 70s and 80s Marvel stories were broadly derivative of something the writer had read or watched recently. They were just usually sensible enough to make it distinctive enough that they couldn't get sued.
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>>149224262Nah, Lee is a closer analogy to Jobs. Shooter was good but he wasn't the founder and face of the company. Lee didn't found what would become Marvel either, but his role and impact was much more like Jobs for Apple in that like Lee Jobs made himself synonymous with his company.
>>149224905The real event that broke capeshit, was the first crisis, followed by death of superman
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>>149223047J.M. DeMatteis gave Captain America a gay friend while Shooter was EiC.
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>>149224813Jesus, Byrne. Why is he like this?
>>149224830Reverend Billy Graham and Superstar Billy Graham the wrestler were two different guys.
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>>149222920 (OP)>the biggest man in comicsFuckin' A.
>>149224757Oh that's just plain fucked up, not weird. Chris was absolutely crushing on her at the time.
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>>149224271No, the Disney purchase guaranteed Marvel's immortality, with DC already under WB. Not because Marvel or DC make any money for their respective corporate masters, because they don't, but because it'd be bad PR to let them die.
>>149224940You sort of get the impression that as soon as writers had a hard rule like that imposed on them, they started trying to break it out of sheer childish contrarianism.
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>>149224796>reworking it over the next 40 yearsThat's the most Barry story anyone could tell
>>149224149It was very obvious a failed mob hit.
Now shut the fuck up.
>>149224504>Loonatard is retardedAnd water is wet
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>>149224958Afraid so, anon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Superstar%22_Billy_Graham
>>149224964Pre-Crisis Karate Kid is BUSTED
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>>149224972>>149224796>reworking it over the next 40 yearsIt was like 20+, but who's counting.
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>>149224963Well, wouldn't be the first time it happened. Ditko and Flo Steinberg were Peter and Betty Brant.
>>149224940>>149224968it wasn't a hard rule though
>>149224940>a gay friendNo
He was a flaming faggot sissy bachelor uncle caricature, it went well past "gay"
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>>149224545Must have been a fun place to work at sometimes. If you're writing jokes into stories a bunch then you gotta have a sense of humor in real life. Also it was smaller back then and less of a corporation.
>>149224566Indeed. I like Titania too so I guess I like women who aren't too fat or buff, as long as they look soft or smooth without being ugly. Her and Absorbing Man alongside Molecule Man and Volcana on a double date would make for a fun issue. Sounds like a She-Hulk plot where she has to eavesdrop on them.
>>149224581Sort of. There's other stories I can't remember except for where he did some cringe shit like the whole Spider-Man vs. Wolverine Hobgoblin, Ned Leeds fiasco. Also he said some weird things in later years but at least I heard his Black Panther semi-revived that character.
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Just got to his era as EIC in the Untold Story. I'll really miss all his blogs and his interviews. He wasn't perfect but he ran a tight ship. And he cared.
Here's to a legend. ;_;7
>>149223772Holy based! RIP to a real one
AD8CD4~1
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>>149225017Honestly based
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>>149224909Ellison was also a bit of an ambulance chaser in regards to credit too. The story he wrote he claims Terminaor was plagiarized from barely resembles it.
And you're right that reusing story elements was hardly new, especially in serialized content where new material had to be cranked out.
>>149225022>Molecule Man, who's realized he has the powers of a god>Complete tearful titty baby for Marsha's approval and loveI felt called out
>>149225017Early Kingsley in Stern's Spider-Man was absolutely flaming, back before he had the idea of making him the first Hobgoblin.
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>>149224332That's the original name your mother had in mind for you
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And that's the end of the issue
>>149223732It makes him look more rugged.
>>149222920 (OP)RIP, 90's Valiant is underrated.
>>149225138Reminder that he created Faith
Reminder that Faith isn't as bad as people say she is outside of her ongoing
>>149224972>>149224992He started in 85 and published it in 2021, that's nearly 40 years.
On that note, how the fuck does a guy like that make a living? He basically had nothing published between the late 90's and 2021, no credits and little reprints, Marvel pays dick on reprints. And I don't think he even does commissions.
BWS does stamp his original art on the back trying to say that any selling and purchasing of the work entitles him to a fraction of the sale, but no one listens to that.
>>149224505I think Morrison will as well
>>149224603Mob face Nocenti was cute. Also
>>149224741 yeah, considering that and from what I hear she kinda self inserted a little with Typhoid Mary, like her more feminist ideas and frustrations with men? Not sure just the impression I get when hearing about it. Either way both of those girls are hot. Kinda weird if Claremont did that but hey Spiral is cool. First I heard of rumors that he liked Nocenti that way. Anyway, I hope Spiral gets over Longshot and ditches Mojo.
>>149224829Holy kek. Wonder if Shooter ever saw the lunacy that is Gerber's Howard the Duck 2000's issues. That shit was degenerate and hippy as fuck.
Gerber can be based in some ways though and morally ambiguous or dumb in others. As much as I don't like Brevoort that Howard/Gambit/Spider-Man issue fiasco almost cost Brevoort his job though maybe Brevoort brought it on himself. Not sure.
>>149225066I feel like I saw somewhere Shooter also liked Molecule Man and kinda inserted as him too. Maybe I'm wrong. Though his taste in Titania and Volcana is top notch.
Also holy fuck I forgot to mention but this
>>149224406 is based. What did he say about Wazzo? I only know Legion stuff because of Wazzo Wednesdays and how much did Shooter contribute to Legion? I feel like I heard it was a lot.
>>149225152Morrison definitely would've back when the board was in full hypercrisis mode but eh, I wouldn't count on current /co/ to pull through
I think Sakai might hit bump limit (though it's still a low chance) but only because Usagi Yojimbo gets annually storytimed with healthy traffic every time
I have to wonder if Marvel or DC are going to do some sort of special for Jim passing away or at least release an anthology with his works?
Who do you think in the industry is celebrating this?
I'm talking like envisioning them partying with this playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx87PIYdYZ8
>>149225178For Morrison I imagine our edgier /co/mrades will be falling over themselves to laugh at a dead troon.
>>149223047>bans fag shit>marvel has the most prolific period since the 60s
>he told them to do their jobs
>artists and writers hated him for it
Shooter knew how artists think, he knew that if they're not on a leash they would kill themselves.
I am astonished that there's only been a single mention of Secret Wars II. Shooter did a lot of great things but SWII epitomizes the problems he had.
>>149225200Who’s left in comics that would hate him? I feel for all of the shit we hear they’d clamber for actual leadership these days
>>149225215When was the last time an industry death in comics caused a fully bumped sticky?
>>149225173>Gerber can be based in some ways though and morally ambiguous or dumb in others. As much as I don't like Brevoort that Howard/Gambit/Spider-Man issue fiasco almost cost Brevoort his job though maybe Brevoort brought it on himself. Not sure.Marvel started putting Howard the Duck in a bunch of comics around 1996 because someone in editorial liked him, Brevoort says he just reached out to Gerber to see if he wanted to come back to Marvel again and do a new Howard story, but Gerber felt Marvel were trying to make it look like the other stuff they were doing had his approval. Instead of just voicing his disapproval and refusing to come back, he did what he did. As much as I think Marvel would have been better off without Brevoort, I think he just got outwitted and played there.
>>149222920 (OP)the most vindicated man of all time, its so funny how he was also autistically focused on power scaling. Marvel and DC will never let another guy like him exist
>>149225255>Kills the entire New Mutants then resurrects them in the next panel>Claremont turns it into an actual character arc for the team
>>149225274>still below 1khttps://desuarchive.org/co/thread/130477078/#q130477078
>>149224034he was Editor in Chief during Marvel's peak. Creatives hated him cause he actually made them do their job and did proper quality control, so as thanks for actually treating the gig as a proper writing gig with benefits, they burned an effigy of him. Unironically one of the few guys that tried to elevate the medium into something worth giving a shit about and paying attention to.
>>149225173>As much as I don't like Brevoort that Howard/Gambit/Spider-Man issue fiasco almost cost Brevoort his jobCan you explain? What happened?
>>149225298>It reached bump limit>"but not 1000 posts"Why change the goal post?
>>149225313The post counter stops at 1000 even if the thread is still active
>>149225327That’s why he brings up 1000 posts specifically in this conversation, I don’t fully know what that really matters anon, ask him
>>149225327Not him but from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of a sticky if it can't reach a 1000 replies?
The average sticky reaches that number and more with ease but the death of notable comic figures on /co/ at most can barely scrape off past the bump limit of a regular thread
>>149224367Shooter was literally just being a proper editor, he cracked the whip when writers started doing dumbshit as a proper editor does. A lot of comicbook writers simply can't make it higher as novelists or screenwriters so they'd have to go with the program if an editor did proper quality control
>>149225342Is being a novelist that much better?
Specifically in America I mean
man
Comics and Graphic Novels DESPERATELY need new blood
COMPETENT new blood mind you
>>149225358Too many people want to be writers
Not enough people want to be editors
>>149223608>co-created Titania, Volcana and the Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman>wrote an Avengers prose short story with really horny descriptions of Jan and WandaTruly, he was one of us.
>>149225354being a successful novelist absolutely gets you more money and respect in the states.
>>149222920 (OP)You were my perfect friend, right there until the end, I'm forever missing you until we meet again.
>>149225384Yeah but how many notable novelists can you name today who aren't decades long established?
How many novels today actually influence fiction as we know it to the same extent works prior did?
>>149223047In the late 70's early 80's homosexuality was still an actual crime in a lot of the country and Marvel was still working within the Comics Code for their non direct titles and on paper the CCA still considered homosexuality to be a perversion. Having an open depiction of homosexuality in a comic could have that comic rejected by the CC which could have resulted in being late and fined by newsstand distribution (which still existed), if the issue was already printed it may have needed to be pulped, re-drawn/re-written and reprinted after the corrections. This is a LOT of potential money lost just to show something that most readers didn't want to see to begin with.
Shooter was just doing his job as EiC.
But this infamous Hulk gay rape story? That was based on his personal experiences staying at the YMCA when he'd come in from Pittsburgh to NYC for two days to get yelled at by Mort Weisinger about his LSH scripts.
>>149225310In pic rel a story happens but there's a part where they go through a portal or something and Howard and Beverly (Howard's human gf) get spit back out in a Savage Dragon/Destroyer Duck (Destroyer Duck was a Gerber character he created with Jack Kirby) story and these characters are implied to be Howard and Beverly who then go by Leonard and Rhonda while in Marvel they are duplicates who are still named Howard and Beverly. Chip Zdarsky in like 2013 treated them as duplicates because he respected Gerber.
Point is, Marvel never treated this as canon and Gerber later killed Leonard and Rhonda off.
Brevoort explains his perspective here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071012225015/http://www.wizarduniverse.com:80/magazine/wizard/002945056.cfm?page=8
This was talked about in one of the Clone Saga threads part of Magister's Spider-Man storytime threads.
Brevoort accidentally losing the rights to characters due to brand confusion and Gerber trying to use a story instead of legal stuff is kinda funny stuff and seems like something he would write in a Howard the Duck comic.
>>149225389IIRC Shooter either lied about his age or Mort Weisinger, who hired him, initially thought he was a college student.
>>149225340>Not him but from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of a sticky if it can't reach a 1000 replies?to not have a bunch of separate threads, duh.
>>149225422If the thread couldn't generate a thousand replies, odds are the "multiple threads" would be two at most or the topic would've never taken over the board to begin with
>>149225441GLORIFIED
TOY
COMMERCIAL
>>149222977overpopulation
>>149225441For a story that's a literal toy advertisement it's pretty fun. Some great Doom moments. Though it and Crisis led to the dark plague of Events, so that sucks.
>>149222920 (OP)How do I get a Chad face like that?
>>149222977PhD grads today are lucky to drive Uber
>>149223047we lost a real one
>>149224411and I hate faggots so goddamn much
Shooter's outline for Transformers:
https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/threads/jim-shooter-passes-away.1279573/#post-23478059
>>149225437still annoying enough to make it worth putting one sticky. Peter David had multiple threads when he died, most of those only got one or two replies before defaulting to the thread that became a sticky. enough to bump a few threads off the board.
Plus most of these comic creator stickys tend to have short runs. PAD's lasted less than a day.
>>149225173>how much did Shooter contribute to Legion? I feel like I heard it was a lot.He created several members of the LSH but also realized that most of the LSH until then were all 'point and use their power' type so he created characters like Ferro Lad and Karate Kid who actually got up close and punched villains. He also created the Fatal Five who is arguably their best villains.
And his did this when he was fucking 13 years old.
>>149225441>>149225476Personally I lay the blame on the post-Crisis annual events of the late 80s-early 90s. Millennium especially comes to mind.
>>149225450it led to a toyline which introduced a lot of characters to us kids, me and my brother included. the 60s and 70s had cartoons which helped expand their market, and newsstands. the importance of making occasional toy commercials was huge back then. now its movies and tv shows... that lead to video games and terrible comics
Assuming that was him in 2024, did he look appropriate for his age?
>>149225441Events suck. They get bloated and have very little actual scale or depth to them. Secret Wars started the trend but it actually had the qualities most events should have.
It led to characters undergoing status quo shifts that stuck for a while, had a large scale, ended alright, and had kino moments that only happen during events. Pic rel is kino with Hulk protecting everybody and displaying his power in comparison to them. Events should have characters with personalities placed in a unique situation and not just be toys smashing against each other. This event does exactly that but each character plays off each other and the fights are cool and fit the characters while being creative. Titania is scared of Spider-Man after this, he gets a new costume, and thrashes the X-Men. Thing gets depowered, Wasp and Magneto have moments, and the heroes have to contend with Magneto joining them. Dr. Doom also gets explored and the villains also struggle to stay together. There's more that goes on which just shows that Secret Wars had more quality to it beyond just commercial stuff.
Also Battleworld is a great setting and Jim also created Contest of Champions which then informed the great JLA/Avengers Crossover's structure which was possibly the best way of handling that type of story.
>>149225539>got close and punchedJesus he really is a Shonen editor. They always want melee attacks in their stories.
>>149225575I swear I saw him in another interview from a few years ago and he didn't look like that. It's scary how much an old person can change in a short amount of time.
>>149225575appropriate for a giant man who got blasted with chemotherapy, yeah. He is literally dying of cancer in that image.
Being a giant is fucking horrible for your health too.
>>149225584>>got close and punched>Jesus he really is a Shonen editor. They always want melee attacks in their stories.A team needs frontliners
>>149223047>best era for Marvel Comics was the most homophobicRIP to a legend
>>149225441It's everything comics should be desu. Just a big fun bashup with some neat character moments.
>>149225151>He started in 85He may have pitched the Hulk story in 85, but he didn't start on Monsters until like... what? 98?
>>149222977I'm an autistic retard.
>>149224505>Ken PendersNo one knows who the fuck this is.
>>149222920 (OP)Only 73 and from cancer, damn
(Wally Wood on the left, killed himself mere months after this picture was taken)
>>149225745Ken Penders is a near nobody amongst diehard fans of superhero comics, indie comics, etc but that doesn't matter when him and the lawsuit between him, SEGA, and Archie is so infamous it breaches into discussion amongst people outside of comics.
>>149225786He was a big guy
Call me silly but Irredeemable is what got me into American comics. RIP
>>149225151He was working for a small publisher overseeing translations into different languages. He also did a lot of consulting work
>>149225745He used to be a bigger deal, but there's still plenty of bitter feelings left around for his eventual death thread to hit the bump limit.Especially if it opens the door for Archie characters to appear in new stuff. God, just imagine the shitshow
>>149224561Mantlo pushed pretty hard for a storyline wherein Spider-Man and Black Cat had a child out of wedlock. Shooter understandably rejected it, but was willing to let Mantlo do it with a Spider-Man pastiche for the Epic line.
>>149225411Both you and I don't know them because book publishers stopped being staffed by and writing for men in the 2000s.
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in peace Mr. Shooter
>>149225854Or you know, Americans can't read
>>149225767Not to make light of these people's deaths but you saying that with that picture makes Shooter sound and look like a Twilight Zone character who causes unsuspecting Sci-Fi writers to act like a Lovecraft narrator who mysteriously die some time later. That or Shooter just looks like G-Man sometimes.
>>149225843Which story does this pastiche appear?
>>149223047We need homophobic creators back to bring comics back to its heyday
>>149225926Long Live the Legion!
>>149222920 (OP)It's strange, I got fixated on reading comic history and reading Marvel interviews this week. So I found out about the news while looking up more Jim Shooter interviews tonight.
Sad news, only 73. Rest in peace.
>>149222920 (OP)Long live the legion
>>149225940>first black character.>first to die
>>149224529Nocenti was X-Men editor at some point in Shooter's tenure and had to stop Claremont from putting Xavier in women's clothing for, I believe, the story where he's captured by the Morlocks. The bondage gear was a compromise more or less.
>>149222920 (OP)>/co/'s stickies are just threads announcing a big industry name dyingReally sad but it is what it is.
Rest easy Shooter.
>>149225964In retrospect, I think we need something to fill the void Steven Universe, Korra, etc left
>>149225964What comic is this from?
>>149225926>*takes sip*They dont make em like they used to
>>149222920 (OP)RIP
Barry Windsor Smith respected him and admired him a lot. Let's pray for his soul.
>>149224761Levitz was one of the guys who hated Dream Girl for that but I think, maybe because of what happened, he eventually came around on her. The Bierbaums never did, though, and her sole appearance during their run is as a slutty, fat, and for some reason middle aged wine aunt.
>>149223539Can someone make an compilation of Dan Slott moving with a tuba playing in the background?
>>149225892As far as I know, Mantlo turned down Shooter's request, I guess he wanted to do the storyline with Spider-Man, period. Steve Gerber's Void Indigo was a reworked Hawkman pitch, though, so there's a strong case that Shooter meant what he said.
>>149226059Better yet, use the RE1's Director's Cut version of the basement theme
>>149224988I wonder if Jim ever got anything from the movies lifting the name off of his character.
>>149225040That book is blatantly unfair to him. It's not at the level of calling him a Nazi like Groth did but Howe 100% hews far closer to the TCJ view of comics and thus doesn't hold Jim in particularly high regard. Which includes willfully reading too much into Jim's work so he could pontificate about Shooter having a god complex.
>>149225745Sonic threads regularly hit bump limit, Sonic fan threads on 4chan are heavily based on the comics, mix both and you're absolutely getting a bump limit hit
>>149223275Kill yourself fat ugly nerd
>>149225178The Morrison sticky will reach through the 5th hypermeta dimensional tunnel to pull posts from alternate 4chans as a meta commentary on the regurgitation of memes and posts.
>>149224504Cartoons have been dead for decades, the only people who engage with the corpse are autists and pedos. And usually autistic pedos.
From Kelley Jones
>Jim Shooter has passed away.
>When I got hired to draw comics for Marvel Comics many years ago Jim Shooter flew out to do several signings in my area and asked if I’d come and meet him, which I did with great trepidation because he was the boss of bosses and I was just starting out. When he finished a signing he asked if I’d like to go out for a meal anywhere I wanted and we could talk about making comic art professionally. I told him let’s go to McDonalds.
>We talked for hours and a lot about Jack Kirby.
>When it was over he asked why did I want to eat at McDonalds of all places. I told him very earnestly that I didn’t want Marvel to pay for an expensive meal as I was a nobody.
>He laughed his ass off and hugged me saying I was Marvel material!!
>He was always very kind to me all the years after.
>God bless him.
From Kelley Jones
>Jim Shooter has passed away.
>When I got hired to draw comics for Marvel Comics many years ago Jim Shooter flew out to do several signings in my area and asked if I’d come and meet him, which I did with great trepidation because he was the boss of bosses and I was just starting out. When he finished a signing he asked if I’d like to go out for a meal anywhere I wanted and we could talk about making comic art professionally. I told him let’s go to McDonalds.
>We talked for hours and a lot about Jack Kirby.
>When it was over he asked why did I want to eat at McDonalds of all places. I told him very earnestly that I didn’t want Marvel to pay for an expensive meal as I was a nobody.
>He laughed his ass off and hugged me saying I was Marvel material!!
>He was always very kind to me all the years after.
>God bless him.
(I fucking hate webp and the lack of it's compatibility here.)
>>149225340/co/ has few comicfags left because cartoonfags and /tv/fags overran the board and drove most of them off. It's better to view stickies at this point as a mark of respect and an acknowledgment of a creator's impact on the medium.
>>149226156Sonic might be the absolute cringeist and worst thing ever, but you have to admit the people who obsess over it are extremely dedicated to their piece of shit.
>>149226237not enough to actually buy the comics though.
>>149226221We weren't run off, it's because most of us comicfags are over 40 and the average poster here is around 15. There's better places to post on the internet for people who don't want to talk to literal children.
>>149226258Well no, of course not. I'd be worried about the population's mental health if the Sonic fanbase was that sizable.
>better places
Like twitter? Where all the comic fans are tranny 23 year old former tumblr-using mystery meat brown people?
>>149226268Where? I have been looking for places where to discuss about comics.
>>149226279the ancient forums that still exist. they're just really slow.
The appeal of 4chan has always been that you will get a reply or some eyes on your post sooner than most other places, the caveat is that the reply may be completely pointless.
>>149226268It's what I've been saying for years and why comics and cartons need to be separate boards. Comics are largely for adults and cartoons are strictly for little kids. Not even remotely the same demographic.
>>149223047RIP this legend. He's having a good time with Jesus now, relaxing forever in heaven.
>>149225412Yeah, the thing people and creatives tend to forget is that with Lee off in Los Angeles, Shooter was essentially the top guy on the creative side at Marvel and thus the person stuck between the the creative and corporate sides. Where Stan might have been the intermediary before, now that was all Shooter which meant that he had to focus much more on the business side of things. Whether he agreed or disagreed with something like homosexuality was totally besides the point with him. He had to protect Marvel's business to keep the suits happy which meant abiding by the norms and standards of the time. That's all it was to him, simple business, and the other editors and writers and fans weren't the ones who were going to get chewed out by Galton because having a gay dude in a story caused a backlash that affected sales, Shooter was.
The tension with corporate is also why the DC deal never went through.
>>149223221>>149223243This memo needs to come back
>>149226289Well, the caveat is that the reply will be from someone half your age and it's usually a middle school kid year old calling you a faggot or a retard.
>>149226297>Comics are largely for adults lol nope
>cartoons are strictly for little kidsAdult Swim?
>>149226279The good thing is that they’re all separated by oceans from DC. They’ll never get their hands on the books themselves, because they’re too poor to make the journey. Still doesn’t mean they can’t have some influence through lambasting and emotionally blackmailing writers (who are already pretty liberal) into doing whatever they want. The current state of continuity fucking with them is good enough for me.
Hence is the Tim Breevort way!
I mean, we're already seeing good riddance posts on Shooter and the same happened with others like Peter David. this hellsite will rarely ever have genuine unanimous respect for a famous person's death
>>149223582I mean, we're already seeing good riddance posts on Shooter and the same happened with others like Peter David. this hellsite will rarely ever have genuine unanimous respect for a famous person's death
Bendis will be looked back on more fondly than Quesadilla, that's for sure
>>149226315>Adult SwimThat's a big misnomer because no actual adults watch that outside of a handful of college aged kids.
>>149226319>this hellsite will rarely ever have genuine unanimous respect for a famous person's deathBro this site is mostly underage trolls seeking validation and attention, most people saying that have never even read a comic book before.
>>149226337Anon you sound like a fucking boomer
>>149226341Yes. As someone in their 40s I have never met anyone who watches Adult Swim. I know a bunch of us watched it when it first started in, what, 2001? But we were all super young and still watching cartoons at the time.
>>149222977Mort Weisinger has been dead for decades, and I never had to support my family as a teenager because my dad died.
>>149226348>>149226365Thanks for making my point.
>>149226208That sounds like a wholesome interaction
>>149226382In all honestly though, if they threw on some old reruns of Thundarr instead of whatever shit they're playing now I'd probably tune in to watch that.
>>149223810Rule #1 of leadership: Everything is your fault.
>>149226341>>149226348nta but adult swim's peak audience for more of it's shows has always been people college aged or younger because most adults dip after the 12 timeslot because they work. It's why the ratings for the earlier shows are always much higher or more normie tier stuff.
if you were a teenager in the 2000's(or a kid) and you post here now, you were likely watching Adult Swim. And ratingswise, that's fine because most shows rarely if ever go above ratings that would be "inappropriate" for teenagers.
>>149223608I miss the era of women in comics being attractive
Thank you based Jimbo
>>149226411Exactly. I was an adult in the 2000s and was definitely not watching Adult Swim. My Adult Swim was watching Space Ghost: Coast to Coast on Friday nights in the mid 90s, technically.
>>149226344sad truth, after a while the regular whining about Miles or Tom King or the twenty other frequent targets on this board gets tiring, and it's pretty obvious there's more trolls around than honest talkers looking for discussions
>>149226428Been this way for a while. This is mostly a board people use to vent hate or to jerk off to porn.
>>149225843>but was willing to let Mantlo do it with a Spider-Man pastiche for the Epic line.Was Daredevil on the table?
>>149226297>Comics are largely for adultsWhy can't Batman say fuck
>>149226440Because if he did us 40 and 50-somethings would get angry about it.
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>>149222920 (OP)https://tombrevoort.substack.com/p/44-whos-the-good-guy?utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true
> Marvel Editors, you are the droppings of the creative world. You were destined to float in the cesspool till urine logged and finally sink to the bottom with the rest of the shit but along came Jim Shooter who rolled up his sleeves and rescued you.>He gave you a title, respectability, power and even a credit card that you used and abused. He made you the highest payed Editors in the history of the business. He protected you against all that could tamper with your rights, your power and your pocket book.>He backed you against all Prima Donna freelancers no matter how big… his pockets were always open to you, No cry of help was too small for him to turn his back on.>As heard in the "Brass" section of the company… "He never asked for anything for himself… always for his men.">The roof over your head, the clothes on your back, the car you drive and the tickets you buy for your blind wives and girlfriends you owe to the Pittsburg Kid>For all he did for you… you repayed him by attacking him like a pack of yellow priceless faggots. Ripping away his flesh from his body and laughing and pounding your chest like conquering ghouls and long after his bones were dry, you continued to pour salt on them to squeeze every ounce of pain out of him,>Not the slightest whimpers or cry or tear came out of this man. With you still biting at his ankles, he put on his coat and walked away…Displaying more class and poise in defeat than all of you did in victory. Jesus had one Judas, Jim had many, those that speared him and worse, those that watched…>I stick by him and for that you've nailed me on the same cross… I thank you for that… It's an honor to be crucified with Jim Shooter, a man who none of you will ever be.>Vince Colletta.RIP Big Jim
>>149226440TV cop shows are for 70 year olds and they still don't say fuck.
>>149226101>10 year old Billy Batson mortified because he thought he killed someoneGod damn, that's dark.
>>149226446Man I hate Breevort
>>149226446Laughed out loud when I got to the signature
>>149226440Batman doesn't say fuck for the same reason a block of cartoons for teenagers needs to call itself "adult swim", because young people are insecure and have a need to make themselves feel older in order r to validate themselves.
They don't show Batman's penis either and nobody wants to see Batman's penis. (yes i am aware of that one instance)
>>149226297>It's what I've been saying for years and why comics and cartons need to be separate boards.And you've been wrong every time. Stop it with the endless hairsplitting you sperg.
>>149226446Wait something extremely funny in the Q&A
>And as to Ultimate Universe, has anyone ever pitched doing an Ultimate line again with another continuity do over?>All the time, Steve, pretty much since the day that the original Ultimate line shut down. Hasn’t happened yet, but who knows what the future might bring? That said, I think it’s extremely difficult to capture that lightning in a bottle again, a lot more difficult than most folks seem to think. I look at the attempts to do similar things, such as DC’s EARTH ONE line, or even its NEW 52 relaunch. Both of them got some short-term attention before losing that spark—and in the latter case, then they were left with a publishing situation that they’re still trying to untangle years and years later. That sort of big reboot can be exciting, but by definition it requires the baby and the bathwater to be put on the line equally.>Jan 29, 2023
>>149226322Thanks for the storytime, it was pretty fun.
>>149226216Starbrand is even funnier. He had the character, who was essentially a Jim Shooter self insert, go crazy, lose control of his power and destroy Pittsburgh, Shooter's irl hometown.
Starbrand is a trip of a comic.
>>149226535Not him
Comics and cartoons should share a board only if we can attain a healthy symbiosis
Attempts were made to get cartoon fans into comics (storytimes, recommendations, etc) and call me impatient but I'm losing optimism it can be done
>>149226535I'd post here regularly if more than half the thumbnails on this board weren't ugly zoomer cartoons or pedobait.
>>149226436it's a shame, the other day I wanted to have an honest discussion around Miles but I should've known better than to talk in a Spider-Man thread with all the Polish schizos running around
>>149224002Superman #199 - 1st Superman vs Flash race please.
>>149226588Aren't cartoons largely dying out anyway? They don't make a lot of them anymore and the few that they do make look like they were made over a weekend for less than a hundred dollars.
>>149226640They still outnumber us hard
It's Avatar time everyday now
>>149226640Kinda, its not that they are dying out and more that the tentpole loreshows and their action show predecessors that defined the peak of cartoon discussion on the bard are mostly dead.
Episodic Comedies are still going strong but their is barely anything to talk about with them.
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in peace, Jim Shooter. So happy you got to see BLACK ADAM.
>>149223329>Roy Thomas>Jim Steranko >Gerry Conway>Larry Lieber>John Byrne>David Michelinie>Walt Simonson>Frank Miller>Alan Moore
>>149225767Damn, Wally really doesn't look good here. His eyes have that
>it's the kind of tired that sleep won't fixlook
>Go to sleep
>Wake up in the world without Shooter
What a way to start summer, goddammit
>>149226640In one sense they sell less than ever but through various reasons, like being expensive, they make more money than ever.
>>149222920 (OP)>Mark Waid just posted.who cares what that piece of shit has to say
>>149226640X-Men '97 brought a twinkle of hope. But with Disney's streaming efforts being a big fat failure it's doubtful they'll put that kind of effort and cash into a non-theatrical animation project again.
>>149226733his kidneys were fucked, he's aging with no pension or retirement plan and work is drying up. And going blind
I've heard it said off the record that what put him over the edge was that he needed a kidney transplant, he went to his brother to ask him for it, and his brother told him he had to consider it first(they weren't that close). The fact that it wasn't an immediate yes made him basically lose any hope he had left since he felt abandoned and hopeless. He would try dialysis and then kill himself soon after.
He was too tired for this world.
Kirby
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>>149226774he was the first person to break the news so it's worth sourcing.
>>149226635>hes a milesfagGet some self respect
>>149222920 (OP)crazy. on the way to the gym tonight i stopped to get gas and there was a small stand with DC comics
hadn't seen comics in a gas station in years til tonight
>>149226906Whoa. I would have bought some on principle.
>>149226923they were the kind for kids. i wouldn't dare take any, kids barely read these days. every single one of them needs to go to a kid. i've got plenty to read. i have a morbius omnibus, Sha, and i'm waiting for vampire requiem that iirc comes out in october
>>149226953Wow, Bruce is rooting against his best friend? What a dick
>>149224692>Shooter hires Layton for Valiant after he burned bridges with Marvel>Shooter bails Layton out of jail after a DUI>Shooter gets Layton into rehab>Layton is clean and sober thanks to Shooter>Layton conspires with Acclaim to get Shooter fired and Layton becomes EiC>Valiant diesLayton is a real piece of work...
>>149224745Shooter said Mantlo had a friend in upper management who protected him. Mantlo also went to college and got his law degree all on Marvel's dime.
What sucks is that Mantlo was a good writer but it looks like there were times he got stuck and cheated.
>>149222920 (OP)I love you and I will probably always be a fan. Sincerely a /shelf Anon
https://www.youtube.com/live/u2H-5cIA8hg?si=Dh0mfOUqhY4sxZx0
>>149226982Not that anon but holy fuck...I didn't know that. Man I love his Iron Man art but geez, that's kind of a rat bastard move.
>>149223047I'm a board tourist who doesn't care for capeslop
Fly high, man. Rest in peace
>>149225062Anon...James Cameron literally said "I ripped off a couple of Harlan Ellison Outer Limits segments". (Soldier and Demon With A Glass Hand)
And that Hulk story by Mantlo was an absurdly obvious knock off of 'Solider' by Ellison.
>>149226982With friends like these, who needs enemies?
>>149226997The table tennis I can see working, but building a dam by just throwing bricks at it?
>>149227013>Werner von BroderI wonder who this could be a reference to...
Did he ever have any comments about the dogshit All New era of Marvel
+1 for dead cumskin storage
now lets see if /co/ would sticky a thread for superior POC talent
>149227095
Bait not even worthy of a (you)
>>149227101This makes it feel like Superman is just dabbing on Flash's speed
>>149226953Thank you, man.
>>149227118Oh no! The mob has been watching Road Runner cartoons!
>>149227130>anything yellow affects my power ringHe says, while projecting onto a yellow wall
>>149227135AdventureTranny, why are you in the Jim Shooter thread? You don't read comics.
>>149225745Part of the reason why sticky threads on average get attention is people from other boards visiting because of the overlap
If /v/ doesn't get a sticky, they'll show up on /co/ to talk about Penders being six feet under
>>149223678Shut up faggot
>>149223660Shut the fuck up tranny
>>149224120Keep seething millenialtroon
>>149223660Nobody will ever read Spirit Falls, Smappy. Shooter did more than you ever will.
>>149227175>>149227181>>149227186Back to your Shrek thread, retard.
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>>149227159So this is what Flash was talking about when he said
>Those were for charity, ClarkThanks for the storytime
>>149227202I said go back, or I'll make you disappear the hard way.
>>149223384Even when writing a tweet about someone dying he cant manage to write succinctly.
>>149227153Shut up millenoid
>>149227214Oh please,we both know the only comics you ever read were Sonic comics.
>>149227085I remember that he criticized OMD. Funny as hell
>>149223545Go ask Big Guy where all the cancer research funding went on his watch.
>>149227226Remember what he said?
>>149227238Scroll up, it's been posted at least twice
>>149227216Nice headcanon
>>149225441Maybe 6 or 7 word bubbles from being a perfect book.
>>149225450You're not wrong but it's the best one we have.
>>149227211Ooh, i’m so scared!
>>149224484Did not know half those dudes were black.
>>149227214Oh but I'm a zoomer, and honestly cartoons have sucked for maybe your entire life. Every day, killing those precious neurons, while watching bright colors and the same old jokes. And some cartoons are great. But if thats the case, then why do most of the cartoon part of /co/ is just about shit made for kids? Ah yeah, a good reason is the porn. Damn somehow worse than /v/. Now go back to the gumball thread :)
>>149227238Damn I was about to post it. At least have this, check the comments
http://jimshooter.com/2011/09/three-comic-book-weddings-or-holy_22.html/
>>149227292>why do most of the cartoon part of /co/ is just about shit made for kids?nta but the reason is because nobody actually likes these cartoons, they're just pedos getting off to the child characters.
>>149223047What a madlad thing to do.
>>149225964Not surprising, Western comics are a stagnant medium, nobody new is actually coming in and doing anything good or transformative. The heyday has been over for 40 years now. All that's left is the slow decline.
>>149227318>nobody new is actually coming in and doing anything good or transformative.Deniz Camp?
>>149227292>you do not have permission to access this resourceO-okay
>>149223783>implying Slott won't come back from the grave just to post a bunch about how sad it is he's gone because he's the best writer who had the longest run on ASM EVER before returning back to the afterlife
>>149224681Ennis discussion on reddit is utterly insufferable for that reason
"DUUUUUUUDE HE'S SO EDGY HE HATES SUPERHEROES BUT KEEPS WRITING ABOUT THEM AND HE WROTE CROSSED!!!! I HEARD ABOUT IT ON YOUTUBE ONCE!!!! YUCK!!!"
Even if you want to just count his capeshit-affiliated work Punisher MAX is probably the best Marvel title of the 21st century yet they treat him as a pariah
>>149226835what a great and astute observation! having a conversation about Miles and other Spider-people = "Milesfag reeeeeeee"
were you born yesterday zoomie?
>>149227375The worst Ennis comment I've seen went something like
>Why does he work on comics?Which just gives me flashbacks to pic related and leaves me thinking "They were right about us"
>>149227309Yep. Watch Funny Pages, good movie
>>149227336Don't worry, it's just where he posted his criticism of OMD
Why the actual fuck did he think this was a good idea?
>>149223607too intelligent and hopeful for this site anon, I hope you'll be able to break free of this place and not look back
>>149224505>Ken Penders>but not Miller, McFarlane, Morrison, and all the other bigger names in your liststupid retard
>>149227434It was a different time
>>149227441>stupid retardPenders would draw in people from /v/ if they don't get their own thread about it
Simple as
>>149227448*their own sticky
Also like what this guy said
>>149226156Penders' infamy is so big it extends past the people who actually give two shits about comics as a medium and its history
No one cares about Ken Penders (or Sonic for that matter) outside of memeing autists.
Penders' infamy is only restricted to autistic fandoms full of faggots like on this site, the other names are a lot more mainstream
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At this point most people know about Jim's comments towards OMD. But he also did full on reviews for the first two issues of Miles's comic, and they're pretty good
http://jimshooter.com/2011/10/ultimate-comics-all-new-spider-man-1.html/
http://jimshooter.com/2011/10/ultimate-comics-all-new-spider-man-2.html/
>>149227465>outside of memeing autists.Dude, where the fuck do you think we are?
Again, when someone dies people go nuts and a lot of traction isn't just from people within the board but also outside it.
It's why people have a whole roll call saying what board they're from
Nobody outside of /co/ is gonna show up for Morrison's death the same way nobody showed up for PAD's
Penders' action unironically pissed off gamers
If /v/ doesn't get a sticky and their threads get deleted, where do you think they'd head to discuss him passing on?
RIP Big Jim. I only got into 80's Marvel early this year after reading bits and pieces of Claremont's X-Men a few years ago, and it's capekino because of his tight ship. Almost everything Claremont did prior to 1987, Simonson Thor and Stern Avengers are top tier. I usually read manga, but there really was something special about 80's Marvel. I'll forgive him for Secret Wars II because he introduced Boom-Boom there.
>>149227483>Penders' action unironically pissed off gamersSonic autists =/= gamers. Sonic autists are their own little group of retards not part of any other community.
Fuck man... with him dead, Marvel writers are going to start making stories that AREN'T good
>>149227434Putting Claremont in his place
>>149227475He's right about the Ditko Spider-Man, those poses looked different from anything a normal human would ever do and a little creepy
>>149227498Dude, we're talking about /v/ going to /co/ to discuss Penders biting the dust
/v/ never shuts up about Sonic
I don't care how awful the fanbase is
I don't care how much an embarrassment they were in the 2000's to 2010's (they've long since been surpassed as the worst)
They are loud, they are numerous, and if Penders were to die when this site is still around they WILL flood a /co/ sticky if /v/ isn't provided one (and why would he? he wrote comics)
>>149224391DC comics because his being a retard is why Jim Shooter didn't get the opportunity to swipe the rights for basically the entire Justice League when they were briefly up for grabs, he had an autism moment and got sighted cockwalking about with a "Marvel Presents: Superman #1" cover art at the office before Jim could close the deal and got them smote by antimonopoly law because he was too much of an assburgers faggot and was absolutely certain Jim would let him do Superman and wanted to make sure of it by being ahead of the ball without thinking about anything else on account of being John Byrne and thus, again, a retard.
Marvel was like all of a week away from having the rights to Superman, Batman, WonderWoman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, the Flash, and IIRC I wanna say the Hawks, or at least one of them before Byrne fucked it up and DC proceeded to resecure the rights in full and made absolutely sure that shit would never happen again after explaining to the suits how close to being gutfucked to death they came.
>>149227508>/v/ never shuts up about SonicYeah, /v/ is filled with autistic Sonictards. They're not numerous, just obsessed.
>>149227472>mainstreamWe're talking about western comics here
If you think Morrison dying would gain as much traction as say, Miura's you'd be mistaken.
Penders is a nobody specifically in comics but that doesn't matter when his reputation goes past that.
>>149227526>They're not numerous, just obsessed./v/'s a faster board than us
Video games are more mainstream than comics or cartoons
>>149227531>Video games are more mainstream than comics or cartoonsYes. But Sonic isn't.
>>149225022Priest is unironically Black Panther's "Real Daddy" as the meme goes, the character would be a well meaning relic without him. Much like Jim and Marvel as a whole, every writer since has been basically burning Priest's good issues to stay warm and using smoke and mirrors to court attention otherwise, but Priest is too much of an old school gentlemen to call the others out despite making it clear how much that panafrican "Wakanda is Black Utopia" faggotry pisses him the fuck off.
>>149222920 (OP)Goddamn, younger than my grandparents. Hell. RIP
I hope he knew how many people appreciated his work in the end.
>>149227434because he was a hack, and being talented at managing people and making them hit deadlines doesn't mean you are good at other things
>>149227506It's an issue with a lot of modern artists in general. They have no real training in terms of motion or anything, they're self taught and study nothing but people are impressed with cool poses so that's all they need to draw. In a sense, all the issues of the '90s in terms of bad art or bad business practices never went away.
>>149227552Shut up tranny
>>149223607>That’s something I’ve been trying to get better at.FUCK THAT! I hope we all live and die salty and spiteful!
>>149227025He's also indirectly responsible for killing the entire comics industry thanks to him making X-Factor, which capitalized on the great state Jim had marvel in still by the end with a massive market advantage and tons of good will to accidentally fuck the entire industry via kicking off "Who cares about continuity just do what the fuck ever you want", "People will buy anything with the X-Men on it.", "Only the nostalgic classic status quo matters", and "Number 1s and big events sell like gangbusters" trends all in one book. There were other factors, but he's the one who inadvertently designed the fire pit, put the fuel in, and then lit it for everyone else to dump gasoline on.
>>149227547>Yes. But Sonic isn't.Gee Anon, I wonder what's one the most frequently discussed comics on /co/ that isn't capeshit?
Something that gets storytimed a regular basis with leaks ahead of time even?
I wonder what's one of the most widely discussed cartoons with an infamously autistic fanbase derived from a video game with an also infamously autistic fanbase?
I wonder why would these factors lead to them wanting to bombard a sticky past a thousand replies if it were about some guy they had bad blood with were to stop living?
Someone who's reputation has turned him an outright lolcow in some parts?
Also, dude direct comics are nowhere near as mainstream as the Sonic franchise lets not kid ourselves
>>149227568>Gee Anon, I wonder what's one the most frequently discussed comics on /co/ that isn't capeshit?The one where the same 6 people post hundreds of times? yes, I know. No one buys Sonic comics, no one cares about Sonic. It's just a very, very, very, very obsessed small group of autistic retards.
>>149227570>No one buys Sonic comics,Online popularity != Sales
>no one cares about Sonic. The games still sell more than a crippled, region locked industry where 40k copies sold a month is considered good.
The films perform well at the box office.
>>149227577>The games still sell more than a crippled, region locked industry where 40k copies sold a month is considered good. The films perform well at the box office.Yep. Children are still a thing. Those aren't the people talking about Ken Penders on 4chan.
>>149225173It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that he was THE Legion writer in more than a few ways, to the point that inorder to scrub his influence and destroy his legacy left on the Legion John Byrne would have had to basically systematically fucking dismantle the entire thing and rebuild it from the ground up as a hollow shell with very little left to work with.
Naturally, being the Black Manta to Jim's Aquaman, John Byrne happily did so immediately the very moment he got the opportunity without any hesitation because this is the same faggot who symbolically killed Jim in effigy *three times* at least, one of which he did IRL by burning a strawman replica he made of Jim at a party he threw.
>>149227429Not surprised there. Seems like so many capeshit fans are interested in nothing BUT capeshit
>>149226306The way I heard it put was Jim knew he could win one fight, Blacks or Gays, with management and his personal experiences and context meant he went for Blacks rather than getting more gays allowed to be a thing in comics, and having won that fight meant that he had to crack down hard on the latter which he admittedly might not have minded as much.
>>149227581>Yep. Children are still a thing. Those aren't the people talking about Ken Penders on 4chan.Do you have the slightest idea how many people who post here are underage?
>>149227601>he went for blacksGood choice. Being black is just something you're born with. Gay is just mental illness and letting that in will bring nothing but headaches, drama, and witch hunt autism.
For some reason I thought he died a while ago.
>>149227612I would bet any amount of money the 6 retards who post about Sonic comics in the Sonic comic threads are autistic 20 and 30-somethings.
>>149227434He actually said that he has absolutely no clue how the fuck that happened, since apparently it was a rushorder issue with some kind of grabbag all-nighter of random people working on or adjacent to it, but, as nobody else involved was going to take responsibility and he was EiC at the time, he apologized since regardless of him not being entirely sure how it got to print like that, it was still under his watch so he'd claim responsibility for it.
>>149227547>But Sonic isn't.It's one of the most profitable media franchises in the world with a large adult audience.
If you think between all threads, fan art, etc made here is between a small group within a single digit, you're awfully naive.
Shadow won King of /v/ last year
>>149227517Shooter never said or implied that Byrne is the reason the deal was scuttled. He said that Galton, like an idiot, rejected it becauae he thought that DC's characters must have been bad if they weren't selling. Shooter convinced him to call Bill Sarnoff back and then Shooter put together a proposal where Marvel would publish a handful of books to start with: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, JLA, Teen Titans, Legion. Shooter was convinced they'd do $3.5 million in the first two years while Ed Shukin, head of sales/circulation, said they'd do double that. So things were sent to circulation.
Byrne didn't leak anything, Shooter said that Byrne showing up with a fully drawn cover and pitch for Superman indicated to him that it leaked. Basically what likely happened is a few people in circulation blabbed which made its way around the bullpen and then to other creators, some of who knew guys working with First Comics. Essentially by the time Byrne knew anything it was too late since that meant everyone else knew.
>>149227627>with a large adult audience.That's an interesting way to describe them.
>>149225313Look at how much Hillenburg got
https://desuarchive.org/co/chunk/104376870/#104377552
Dude, industry legends are a big deal to us but them passing isn't gonna cause cross boarding levels of discourse and attention unless they were prominently notable in some way outside of /co/
>>149223690Bill Sienkiewicz did a portrait for Shooter a lot like that pic
>>149227629Also once it got to First, First sued Marvel claiming a monopoly. Marvel could have likely successfully fought it but corporate decided it wasn't worth it and nixed everything.
>>149227434No one actually cares about Carol
>>149227633Yeah, it's a kid franchise with a large adult fanbase
No different from Pokemon, Godzilla, Transformers, Star Wars, Marvel, DC, etc
>>149227657Who do you think organizes this cesspool?
12 year olds?
>>149227643The difference is, people into Godzilla, Star Wars, etc all have varying taste in things and don't just like one thing. Sonic weirdos only consume Sonic media and almost nothing else. There's not as many adult weirdos into it as you think, just a small but insanely vocal group of autistic 20 and 30-somethings. Yes the games and movies or whatever do well, but I guarantee you if you attended a showing of the last Sonic movie, 99% of the people in attendance were kids and parents with their kids. This is not the same as Star Wars, Godzllia, comic book movies, etc.
>>149226801Didn't he mostly "self-medicate" with alcohol due to his intense migraines that doctors had no explanation for?
>>149227662Those arguments literally apply to Pokemon's fanbase as well and nobody's gonna deny a large chunk of its fanbase are adults
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I'm sick of fags talking about Sonic. Post your favourite comics from Big Jim's tenure as EIC
>>149227686I would compare Sonic more to Smurfs. Popular, but let's be real, if you show up to a comic con in a Papa Smurf costume, everyone dressed up as Predator, Deadpool, and Darth Vader are going to ignore that guy.
We lost our best tard wrangler
>>149226185>Comics have been dead for decades, the only people who engage with the corpse are autists and homos. And usually autistic homos.FTFY
>>149227689Unless you're in France
>>149227692Pedophilia and homosexuality are both fetishes that stem from the same basic mental disorder.
>>149227686>Pokemon's fanbaseIf they're female, it's fine. If they're male, it's autism.
>>149227709>If they're male, it's autism.No different from being a diehard capeshit fan
>>149227687You can't really pick just one but I'm partial to Avengers #229. That whole story to start is I think the best Pym story ever and it does am elegant job of finishing off the storyline that Shooter left on with him in a way that makes Pym a more interesting character. And that specific issue gives us what's probably Pym's greatest moment where he defeats the entire Masters of Evil singlehandedly and captured using his wits.
>>149227718It is different. Pokemon is for girls.
>>149227732>source, my ass
>>149227709Gonna be real with you. It's probably autism for both.
>>149227734Come on, bro. Lol.
>>149227732>>149227737Than why did it take until Crystal for the player to have the option to play as a girl?
>>149227739I don't know what that is, but Pokemon is for girls. Cute shit = for girls.
>>149227736/vp/ here
Can confirm
>>149227740Aight, you are a retard
>>149227744Men don't watch cutesy poo cartoon shit unless they're autistic or pedos.
>>149227737What the fuck is this revisionist history? The creator based pokemon off of bug collecting as a child. Girls dont collect bugs. The first generation starters final evolutions were designed with a male audience in mind. It wasnt until GF introduced the FAIRY type is when you get troons like you thinking pokemon was a girls thing.
>>149227746You must be autistic or a complete zoomer retard.
>>149227740>Cute shit = for girls.BEHOLD CUTE
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>>149223753>A tall man who wrote a very homophobic Hulk story. Obviously responsible for some of Marvel's best comics>>149223796>I'm not going to say Shooter wasn't a bit of a homophobe, but can you really say that story itself is when it was based on his own experience when he was living at a YMCA?Yeah the Hulk story was based on him and a friend's experience of the YMCA.
>>149227748Hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better about your girly hobbies, bro
>>149227749>zoomerWorse, he's a 40 something
In that case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6hEENOmcr8
>>149222920 (OP)Ah fuck, RIP. Big Jim was certainly a man with flaws, but his importance to cape comics is huge and often understated. His teenage run on the Legion basically transformed that group and laid the groundwork for a lot of stuff that would becoming prominent in comics like X-Men afterwards, and I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that he basically saved Marvel in the 80s. Presided over a lot of good comics and initiatives, and whilst he was by no means a particularly pleasant guy to work for, it can't be denied that he did fight for fair treatment for his workers (though I'm sure John Byrne will have a decent go at denying it).
Never really got a fair shake in the industry again after he was ousted from Marvel and subsequently Valiant. Very complex and interesting guy, and the world of comics is lesser without him it.
>>149227749I'm well over 40 and I don't have autism. But if you're over 12 and engaging with Pokemon, you're probably autistic and are probably a pedo too.
>>149227750Is that a Hello Kitty character?
>>149227756>he wasnt there for pokemaniaMust suck to be a zoomer idiot
>>149226779Despite the high levels of fan engagement on comics-related online spaces, X-Men '97 launched with a smaller audience than the earlier What If? cartoon had, and most of that online engagement ended the minute it was over. It's probably not the last great hope that people want it to be, and season 2 is probably doomed with the original showrunner ousted.
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>>149227764Do you honestly believe these designs would be used to cater to a girl-only franchise where the vast majority of protagonists across anime, manga, games, etc are primarily depicted as guys?
>>149227767Anime is also for girls.
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>>149227723It's interesting that Shooter never got the chance to prevent the slap, but he was able to oversee some great comics that built Hank back up, which ended up making him a lot more interesting as a result
>>149227764>muh paedowsGo back to shitter
>>149227774Yeah the south park parody was totally aimed at girls.
>>149227774>Anime is also for girls.Anime and manga are literally divided up for gendered audiences
Shonen for young boys, shoujo for young girls, seinen for older men, etc
>>149227709Jesus fucking Christ in a ragstick, anon. At least come up with decent baits.
>>149223723What happened to him with both Valiant and Defiant is just fucking depressing.
>starts up Valiant with a bunch of other comics creators and business partners, to directly compete with the Big Two>does a lot of creative work, struggles against the underdog circumstances to make Good Comics™>suddenly discovers that one of his Valiant partners is having an affair with one of the principals from the venture capital company they're being part funded by>lodges a formal complaint alongside his other Valiant partner; the other partner gets voted off the board and now Shooter's the only one not involved with the venture capital company>a few other shenanigans happen over the next year or so>eventually the board tells Shooter they want to sell Valiant to another company coincidentally headed by the remaining partner's brother-in-law>Shooter refuses to sign the deal>they fire him, take his stock, block any future royalties, go through with the sale, and meanwhile tell everyone Big Bad Jim Shooter was blocking a deal that was gonna be amazing for Valiant and its employees>Valiant instantly turns to crap without him>soon after that, starts up Defiant Comics by himself>asks his friends and family for investment money, does all the work himself this time>kneecapped right out the gate when Marvel sues them because their first comic, Plasm, allegedly sounded too similar to some literally who Marvel UK character called Plasmer who starred once in a 4-issue miniseries in 1993 that nobody has ever cared about>Defiant wins the lawsuit but are completely bankrupted thanks to the legal fees>shut down within 2 years of starting
>>149227779The south park parody was making fun of a shitty girly thing, yea. Why do you think Cartman is always the one into that girly shit? His autistic tendencies are well established. You're not supposed to think Cartman is cool, he's the object of ridicule.
I always liked reading Jim's blog on various topics:
http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/plagiaris.html/
>But while I was EIC, he ripped off a Harlan Ellison story for an issue of the Hulk. That issue I signed out — but I had never seen the episode of Outer Limits (I think) that Bill had ripped it from, so I didn’t know. I remember thinking what a good story it was, and that Bill must be improving.The day the book hit the stands, Roger Stern called me and said, “Are you nuts?! This is a Harlan Ellison story!” I said, “It is?” Then my secretary told me Harlan Ellison was on the other line.
>Harlan said, words to the effect, you ripped me off. I said, yes, I know, I just found out about it. That admission calmed him down. I asked him what he wanted. Should we turn this over to the lawyers and let them work something out? I assured him that there was no contention, that Marvel did it and would fess up to it.
>Harlan’s damages, by statute, would have been in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he had us dead to rights. But, he said he’d settle for the same money as Bill was paid to “write” the script, an acknowledgement, plus a lifetime subscription to everything we ever published. Done. Thank you, Harlan.
>I wanted to fire Bill, but he had a friend upstairs — the financial V.P. — who resisted. It was my call. I could have fired Bill over his objections, but I decided, stupidly, that the subsequent hostile relationship with the financial guy would be worse than policing Bill better.
You can tell the guy was juggling a lot by how he handled these hot situations. And even though the blog post details Bill's plagiarism he still contextualises it at the end that people are complicated and that Bill didn't deserve his accident and posted a link to donations for Bill's care.
I think the man had some solid principles and managed to juggle a lot.
>lived long enough to see this become some "shitty girly thing"
Sad times.
>>149227799Dude, you're talking to an out of touch geezer
>>149227799It only became a shitty girly thing when you still decided it was ok for you to like it after you turned 13.
>>149227601>>149227613I don't think "allowing black characters to be in comics" was really a battle to be fought by the time Shooter was Marvel EIC the way it had been back in the 50s and 60s. But whatever his personal feelings on gays, during the era he was EIC that would have caused a lot more controversy and complaints than it would today, and he would have been the one who'd take the fall if the execs wanted to blame someone.
>>149227802Keep seething oldfag
>>149227809I think you mean "boomer", that's the word you autistic zoomers have decided on, yes?
>>149223753>>149223796>>149227755The thing about this Hulk issue is, from the way people talk about it, they make it out as if the entire issue is some homophobic screed against evil gay rapists when it only amounts a couple of pages as a plot device to turn Banner into the Hulk.
>>149227814Okay grandpa, it's past your bed time
Just take your medication, go to bed, and you hopefully you don't shit your diaper this time
>>149227792I've always been partial to the story he shared in the editor's column in a Spider-Man story
>>149223773He knows he could've easily sued DC for "taking advantage of him" by hiring him when he was a minor, but he recognises that he did need that money and it wouldn't be right to sue the people that gave him a job he needed.
>>149223883>Ditko's reputation was twisted by journos who didn't get and/or like that he didn't want to do interviews.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwDnhMO8is
This documentary on Steve Ditko that was on the BBC is quite kind about him. Alan Moore is in it and interviewed and says quite nice things about Ditko too.
In the end the presenter, Jonathan Ross and Neil Gaiman, went to meet Steve, even after Steve had never responded to interview requests. And Steve was nice to them and gave them a bunch of comics.
Many comic book people are misunderstood (like Steve Ditko, Alan Moore etc). (Whilst people like Neil who aren't misunderstood turn out to be true wrong ones.)
It is also fun because it features a Stan Lee interview where famously Stan, who usually had his lawyer present, did the interview even though his lawyer was running late.
>>149227817It will never be socially acceptable for an adult man to enjoy girly shit like Pokemon, deal with it zoomie.
>>149227750> TFW the cunts at Amity Square won't let me take my Muk for a walk
>>149227822If that's the case we wouldn't have had the Pokemon Go craze
>>149227827Is that the craze where autistic weirdos wandered around in people's back yards and had to have the police called on them? That sure was an awkward 15 minutes.
>>149227822Shut up and drink your prune juice you fossil
>>149227818That's a good story too. He didn't get every decision right but on balance he got a lot of them square on. And that is why he had lived by some decent principles. People appreciate those convictions.
>AdventureTranny is into Pokemon too
because of course he is
>>149227816If anything it more feels like a rant against hostels/YMCAs. They are awful places too.
>>149227835It's just an anonymous message board, admitting to liking cringy girly shit won't impact your social standing. But if I see you standing on the side of the road wearing a Sonic or Pokemon shirt you can bet I'm going to honk my horn and laugh at you. lol.
>>149227848I don't even wear clothing with franchises attached to them
I just think your ignorance and arrogance is laughable and a sign that you're more out of touch with people than the people running Marvel today
>>149227853>I don't even wear clothing with franchises attached to themYou also probably don't go outside that often. Probably for the best.
>>149223384As hard as it may be to believe, there really was a time when Waid wasn't a tremendous faggot. I think.
>>149227816>>149223796>>149227844Jim definitely didn't like the gays, although I would say it was low key hate and not full on homophobe. He allowed a bunch of gay shit at Marvel but it was under the radar and maybe he didn't realise. The character of Ken (pic related) in X-O Manowar is a manipulative and weird gay stereotype.
Some people say his no gay edict was because:
>The CCAWhich was majorly waning anyway.
>The moral panics of the 80s.More plausible, because there was some comics backlash again.
But then you have him writing non-CCA Valiant books in the 90s and still having a weird creepy gay character like Ken.
>>149223384I really dislike that first paragraph. You can talk about controversy in a different way and maybe not at the start.
>>149227566Resurrections, and status quo regressions were things that had been happening long before X-Factor, and events had been a thing since Secret Wars. X-Factor wasn't doing anything new, and wasn't even the first time a "permanently dead for real" X-Men character came back. It's just the moment the generation of readers who got into X-Men because of SOMEONE DIES! hype got burned.
It's amazing that all the edgy pricks who want constant deaths of popular and significant characters can't see that they're part of the problem, and constantly bitch about Marvel and DC later bringing popular characters back like THAT'S the only problem here. No, those idiots turning character deaths into something comics do for sales and attention is the problem, then they cling to those stories like SOMEONE DIES! has genuine serious artistic value and messing with it is a crime.
And why the hell are so many X-fags who insist X-Factor ruined X-books, ruined Marvel and ruined comics all somehow still around and still active in fandom decades later instead of just quitting and finding something they actually enjoy?
>>149227816You do one thing some people don't like, and they try to define your whole career by it. Many such cases.
>>149222920 (OP)I thought he died years ago.
Still, F
>>149227782>decent baitsIt got replies and made people angry, what more do you want?
>>149227871Things hadn't really changed that much in mainstream cape comics by the 90s, even after Marvel had Northstar come out, he couldn't really do anything overtly gay. And some gays just are weird and creepy, doing an obviously fake voice and everything. That's not a conversation anyone really wants to have.
>>149227921Nobody needs to do anything overtly straight, either. These are superhero comics where dudes in tights fly around and save people. How much overt sexuality do you need on display in children's media anyway?
>>149227921I mean, it just seems like homosexuality made Jim uncomfortable. For what reason, who knows aside from that YMCA story. A character like Ken was a bit unnecessary and weird.
>>149227871How about option c?
He was in the closet
I mean he was never married right?
>>149227566I don't think X-Factor killed it. I think Secret Wars did:
>John Romita Sr. said: Shooter had been great for the first two or three years. He got the creative people treated with more respect, got us sent to conventions first-class with our ways paid, and we thought the world of him. Then his Secret Wars was a big hit, and after that he decided he knew everything and he started changing everybody's stuff.Shooter got everyone paid, got them more money, reined stuff in and had a tight ship. But then the gimmick storyline got to his head. Secret Wars was made in conjunction with Mattel. After that we got constant events, especially in the X-line.
What a way to end pride month amirite guys
>>149224504>Vizislop tranny furfag thinks anyone cares what you have to sayOpinion discarded
>>149224676>Millar will be noticed because at least people will remember him as the creator of Kick-Ass and Kingsman.Which sucks because Millar is probably the worst writer out of everyone on that list.
>Kirkman, because like it or not the Walking Dead was a big piece of pop culture in the 2010s. And mayyybe Invincible.Lmao. People know the Walking Dead and Invincible, but they don't know who Kirkman is. I remember making a thread to talk about his religious hang-ups on /co/ and getting mostly "literally who the fuck is this" replies, and that was after Invincible got a cartoon. If /co/ barely knows him, casuals sure as hell won't.
>>149227971>VizislopIs that what that shit is called? I just thought it was some weird roadkill art and thought they were out of line for posting that ugly shit outside of /b/.
>>149224484I've shared it loads of times on this board before, but Priest's old blog on his time as Spider-Editor is absolutely worth reading
https://lamerciepark.com/legacy/comics/spidey.html
>Still unsure of how much Owsley and Shooter fucked up on each end but it is fascinating.My view is that both fucked up, Owsley due to inexperience and Shooter due to misplaced confidence, and those fuck-ups combined to make one major fuck-up for almost all involved.
>>149225022>the whole Spider-Man vs. Wolverine Hobgoblin, Ned Leeds fiascoThis one wasn't a fuck-up. It was a deliberately petty act.
Spider-Man vs Wolverine almost gets away with it, because it's a great comic taken by itself, but once you know the behind-the-scenes shenanigans then it's impossible to see the death of Ned Leeds in that issue as anything other than Owsley breaking the toy he knew DeFalco/Frenz were set to use. It's incredibly telling that he doesn't mention the comic at all in the blog post above. Priest is a fantastically talented comic writer IMO, but this is probably his worst moment. I do wonder what he thinks of it now.
>>149227975>If /co/ barely knows him,Anon, /co/ doesn't read comics
>>149227970Indeed. In honor of Jim Shooter, July will kick off with "Fuck Trannys and all Mentally Ills" month.
>>149227937>nobody needs to do anything overtly straightNo but they do, its an inherit biological imperative.
>How much overt sexuality do you need on display in children's media anyway?Yeah who needs drag queens reading to kids anyway
shooter
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damn, john lennon died
Bill wanted Northstar to get AIDs at one point.
>As Mantlo had planned it, Northstar would get sick after fighting a supervillain called Pestilence… and would have simply stayed sick for a period of some months. It would be a small thing at first — an inopportune cough, a bout of weakness — growing slowly but surely across months before the truth was finally revealed: Northstar would be revealed to have AIDS, and would ultimately die from the disease. In the process, both the Alpha Flight cast and the readers would have the opportunity to learn more about the reality of AIDS and the way it affected people physically and emotionally, and Northstar would finally be given the opportunity to come out… just before he passes away forever, one of the few Marvel heroes to die what was intended to be a permanent death. In hindsight, it’s far from the perfect queer narrative, but it’s also, undeniably, a story that was intended to mean something with good intentions.
>It’s hardly surprising that The Powers That Be at Marvel refused to go along with it. As the story goes, Mantlo’s immediate editor got cold feet at the idea of, basically, outing a character as gay just to immediately kill him off. At roughly the same time, Marvel’s editor-in-chief (again, Jim Shooter, the mind behind Dewey and Luellen from before) finds out what Mantlo is planning for the first time and steps in to be far more emphatic in his objection: as far as he was concerned, Northstar was going to stay in the closet as long as possible, death or no death.
>As Mantlo told The Advocate again shortly after all of this had gone down, “When the company found out what we were doing, an edict came down declaring that not only could Northstar not die of AIDS, but we couldn’t even have a gay character because it was too controversial! They were afraid too many people in the Bible Belt would stop buying the book and there would be all sorts of protests.”
>>149224083>>149224141>>149224529"Junkies" is a bit harsh, but one of the anecdotes about pre-Shooter 70s Marvel is that Jim Starlin, Steve Englehart, Al Milgrom and some others (I think Alan Weiss and probably Steve Gerber) would regularly hang out in their apartments and get high for inspiration. If they weren't doing that, then they were going out in the evening and tripping around NYC.
>>149228003I mean, when Captain Marvel got cancer everyone loved it
The worst thing about this is that it would be kind of an uninspired rehash, in the era where Marvel was otherwise doing the biggest innovations since the 1960s
Beer
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>>149227882>Resurrections, and status quo regressions were things that had been happening long beforeThis. Wizard magazine did a Death of Superman article in the 90s for the Death of Superman event listing all the times Superman had "died" in comics before. And it was a bunch.
>And why the hell are so many X-fags who insist X-Factor ruined X-books, ruined Marvel and ruined comics all somehow still around and still active in fandom decades later instead of just quitting and finding something they actually enjoy?I like X-Men and Claremont's run. And X-Factor is definitely a point where the spin offs and event proliferation became too much that is what people latch on to. People like X-Men because there were so many good characters you could latch on to at least one with soap opera drama and big storylines.
I think people dislike it for the same reasons we have fights today, X-Factor was kind of led by a type of nostalgia. Some people had nostalgia for the original 5 X-Men even though that book was cancelled for low sales and felt the reboot X-Men (from Cockrum and Wein's Giant Size book) were "not muh X-Men". So it is a generational dispute as much as anything.
And that quagmire represents the event driven, gimmicky comics problem which led comics to their peak and arguably contributed to their crash (many other factors are involved).
(More generally speaking, people just repeat the same narratives over and over again, I don't think it is a case of people just bitching and not being able to quit, more than people's knowledge is limited so they tell the same stories, the same way.)
>>149228037Yeah because Carol sucks lol
>>149228044>how to out yourself as an outrage tourist in a single post
cap1
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>>149228044He's talking about the original Captain Marvel, not Carol
>>149228051Curses! I am found out! You haven't seen the last of me!!
Carol still sucks, though
What is it with cartoonfags and /pol/ bronies that they feel the need to shit this thread up? They did it to the PAD thread too. Are they that triggered by seeing something that's not their obsession get a sticky?
>>149228053>that pic>Marvel Graphic Novel lineIt is weird that for every gimmick or attempt at copying other formats/competition that was successful, there was a bunch of stuff that Jim did do in his tenure that did fail and people forgot about it.
>>149227985I think he's said, broadly, that he's more or less not proud of the way he acted when he was younger.
>>149228083There's an anon that has been doing this to every thread for the past few months. They're not triggered by anything, they're just autistic and very bored.
>>149228085Since the 00s I have seen a bunch of companies try different things and when people talk about the problems of modern comics they often ignore all these weird attempts at doing something differently that failed. And those sorts of gimmicks go back further than Jim's tenure. Comics have always had a gimmick-ification type mindset.
Short creative turn around product with low margins and disposable entertainment. It happens. Lot of "throw shit at the wall, see what sticks and if it sticks, throw triple the amount of shit" thinking.
>>149228003Northstar coming out got a lot of blowback when it finally happened. And corporate blocked Nicieza from giving Jack Monroe AIDS in a story that was about his crazy girlfriend injecting people with it and that was like 1993.
>>149228109>And corporate blocked Nicieza from giving Jack Monroe AIDS in a story that was about his crazy girlfriend injecting people with it and that was like 1993.Didn't Peter David have a character with AIDs in Hulk during the 90s?
>NiciezaAnd don't people believe the legacy virus was pretty much an AIDs allegory?
Why does every gay character have to get aids? Does every fag just go around having tons of sex with other men like Joel Schumacher?
>>149228026>Steve GerberActually that's the irony: Gerber, the guy who did the most bizarre stories, never did drugs. He chainsmoked like any good writer in those does but that was it. He was just a natural weirdo and social crank.
Politics
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>>149228118Stan Lee emphasised that Marvel was the world outside your window and fans praised "realistic" storylines. Peter Parker facing troubles or being misunderstood by JJJ. Even early FF had a story where Reed lost their money investing. Teams had PR issues and stuff. The politics thing has always been in there. Bill Mantlo Hulk had Hulk shouting at an Israeli superhero and she cries while holding a Palestinian.
Writers wanted to elevate their comics by inserting [issue of the day] in there. Sometimes clumsily. AIDS was a big issue.
>>149228118In fairness, gays who pal around in gay social circles DO tend to get lots and lots of sex. Men desire sex almost all the time, and when your partner is another dude it isn't that hard to achieve it.
SgBACl9
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>>149228116>Didn't Peter David have a character with AIDs in Hulk during the 90s?Yes. This was a letter page too.
>>149228116Yes but it was a minor/one off character. Jack was the main character and the suits didn't want any of their heroes having AIDS. Nicieza pointed out it was stupid because the point of these lower level books was to do things you couldn't do with the big characters but they wouldn't relent.
ijtlxqu
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>>149225040>>149226132I don't think The Untold Story is completely unfair to Shooter. The "all his villains were would-be gods frustrated that nobody obeyed them so obviously that's how Shooter felt IRL" is plainly a bullshit interpretation, but other than that I think Howe is largely sympathetic to the man. Admires his hard work as a youth, respects his ambition and righting the ship, and writes that many great writers and artists wouldn't have had their opportunity or fair working pay without Shooter fighting for them, but also acknowledges that his management style often caused a great deal of friction and frustration among employees and freelancers, rightly or wrongly. I never got the sense that Howe was some Groth-tier Shooter hater. I'd absolutely criticise The Untold Story for how much it whitewashes and praises the Quesada/Alonso era towards the end of the book, though.
The story I always remember from Howe's book is when Shooter and John Romita go to meet with their new owners in 1986, shortly before Shooter gets sacked. They come in with this plan to cut down on the number of titles by half in order to refocus their efforts and quality control on the best comics. Management sits there and then tells him they're going to create 10 more titles, all the characters and premises, and then Marvel will make the comics.
>Romita: "Shooter and I looked at each other like we wanted to commit suicide."
Shooter era Marvel remains some of my favorite entertainment of all time. So thanks for all the comics, Jim. R.I.P.
>>149228162>1978 to 1987Yep. Best era in all of comics, but definitely the peak of Marvel.
>>149228118>Does every fag just go around having tons of sex with other menWell, yeah. Men are always dtf unlike women, which is why there are no gay incels except the ones in denial.
>>149228161I dunno, Untold Story does posit that Shooter saw himself in Korvac, which is a pretty fucked up thing to say about someone.
>>149228188I'm a gay incel, I just suffer from extreme social anxiety and never talk to anymore.
>>149227993>Fuck Trannysdon't mind if I do
Jim Shooter was a good guy and did a lot to support creators and their rights. It's a shame to see wokies trying to smear his name because of some perceived notion that he was a homophobe.
>>149228188>no gay incels except the ones in denial.I dunno it seems like you're SOL if you're gay but don't like going to parties, bars, or clubs.
>>149228219No one is trying to smear him, they are talking about all aspects of his legacy. I am sorry you believe in all or nothing thinking, but people can praise his work and all the good stuff he did whilst also talking about shit he got wrong. We are all human, none of us are perfect. Jim Shooter even said it best when mentioning Bill Mantlo's plagiarism in his blog:
>And now, once more with feeling:>I think that we comics people, fans every one of us, tend to see things in terms of good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains. It usually isn’t that black and white. Bill did some things that were very wrong for reasons known only to him and incomprehensible to me. He did many good things, too. Whatever mistakes he made, whatever flaws he had, his talent was a boon to our field of endeavor. He deserves a great deal of credit, respect and admiration. He certainly did not deserve the tragic accident that befell him.I think that whatever flaws Jim had, he was a boon to comics too.
>>149228120Huh, makes sense now why I couldn't find anything about Gerber and drugs.
Reminds me of how Ditko kept having hippies ask what drugs he was doing to come up with all the fantastic imagery in Doctor Strange
>>149228240God I fucking hate hippies.
>>149228198Yeah, like I said, I found that interpretation of Korvac and the Beyonder re Shooter to be completely bullshit. I'd hope anyone who reads that book has the critical faculty to dismiss it as such, but obviously Shooter hate is still pretty strong even 40 years on.
>>149227641Carol was being retired as a character after her solo book was cancelled, and nobody at Marvel at the time but Claremont really cared about her. Even after Shooter was gone, it was another ten years before anyone cared enough to bring her back to an ongoing book. Michelinie started Carol's pregnancy as a way to retire her, but at the last minute he was forced to drop his original plot for Avengers #200 as it was too similar to a recent What If? story. Like
>>149227622 talked about, Shooter ended up working with Michelinie, Perez, and at least one other guy on an all-nighter rush job just to get the book out by the deadline. Somehow one line of the story made it sound like Marcus had mind-controlled Carol, none of them know how that line got in there, nobody wants to own up to it, but Shooter took the blame because the buck stopped with him. No matter how many times this story gets explained, butthurt Carolfags keep on misrepresenting the book as Shooter and the others intentionally writing a book where Carol got raped and nobody cared.
Reader reaction was bad enough that they had to do a follow up story for damage control, but actually letting Claremont canonize that it really was rape, and holding the entire Avengers team accountable for something only three of them heard was a really bad idea.
>>149227434>>149228267http://jimshooter.com/2011/12/avengers-200.html/
>Avengers #200>And here’s what Jim had to say:>I found my copy of Avengers #200. I read it. I agree with the consensus, it’s heinous. But, I don’t remember much about how it got that way.>I am credited not only as Editor in Chief but as one of the co-plotters. However, I didn’t see anything in the book that jogged my memory. No bits that I remember suggesting. No corrections of the sort I might have made to a plot passed before me.>But I did see many things I would have had changed if I’d seen the plot. For instance, leaving aside the Ms. Marvel mess for the nonce: Iron Man thinks it’s okay for the weird, mysterious child to be given a “laser torch” and electronic equipment so he can build a machine. What?! As the massive machine is being assembled, no one bothers to question what it is or does. What?! Trouble ensues. No kidding, really? Good grief.>At that time, I didn’t approve plots. Editors did. I can think of no reason that plot would have been passed before me. I don’t remember participating in a plotting session. David Michelinie lived far away and seldom came to the office. He and Bob Layton plotted books together mostly over the phone, then Dave wrote them up and presented them to the editor. I don’t know to what extent George Pérez was involved. George often added bits and scenes, or made small changes to stories he was drawing, so possibly that is why he was given a plot credit. Usually writers didn’t mind George’s modifications because they were generally pretty good.(1/2)
>>149228286>Generally, the first time I saw a book was when the finished pages were given to me to sign off on before they were sent to Chemical Color, the separators. There were exceptions, of course, books with which I was more involved. I don’t think this was one of them. But, possibly I made some suggestions that garnered me a “co-plotter” credit, and if so, what was I thinking?>And, I guess I signed off on this book.>I regret it.>But, in those days, in any case, the buck stopped at my desk. I take full responsibility. I screwed up. My judgment failed, or maybe I wasn’t paying enough attention. Sorry. Avengers #200 is a travesty.>Maybe outstanding editor and outstanding human being Jim Salicrup, who has occasionally honored this blog with his memories can lend some information about Avengers #200. If he says I participated, believe him. I don’t know.>A note: At the time, as I recall, David Michelinie and Chris Claremont were feuding, so that may have had something to do with this story. Ask Chris. Or Dave. Preferably both. Or Jim Salicrup.>Again, mea culpa. Sorry.(2/2)
>>149228240Thomas talked about how the Doctor Strange readership would send in joints with their fan letters.
>>149228109>And corporate blocked Nicieza from giving Jack Monroe AIDS in a story that was about his crazy girlfriend injecting people with it and that was like 1993.I think Image had already done that with TWO characters who got injected with AIDS by then.
>>149228116>And don't people believe the legacy virus was pretty much an AIDs allegory?It is, in terms of it being this killer disease affecting mutants, but then a human gets it and there's panic and hysteria, but Legacy Virus was just released into the atmosphere by a supervillain and mutants could just get it at any time for no reason, there was nothing you could do to protect yourself from it except live in a hazmat suit.
And then one day Hickman retconned the one human who caught it into being a mutant all along.
>>149228300kek
I can't imagine ex-English teacher Roy doing much with any of those
>>149228042I think it's worth pointing out one of Byrne's anecdotes about Jean coming back in the mid 80s, that Claremont had already teased it so many times that a lot of readers already saw it as an inevitability, so there wasn't really that much outrage at the time. What we see today is the minority of readers who lost their minds over it and are still angry decades later, but we shouldn't pretend they're reflective of the average 80s reader.
>>149227434>>149228267>>149228286>>149228292Here is some comments from other creators:
>In one of his Mark's Remarks columns, Mark Gruenwald said the following about the infamous Avengers #200:>"Funny thing about Ms. Marvel and Marcus Immortus: in the original scenario Marcus wasn't supposed to be the father of Carol Danvers' "child", the Supreme Intelligence was. The child in AVENGERS#200 was supposed to be a newborn cosmic baby with the S.I.'s spaghetti-head look. But a WHAT IF story about the Kree-Skrull War came out around the same time, with a plot featuring a Supreme Intelligence spawn, so the editor in chief ordered writer David Michelinie to find a different father. Thus the nonsensical finale of issue #200!">Here's some comments from an interview with David Michelinie about the circumstances of the creation of that issue. He confirms what Gruenwald wrote, and says the story was plotted by committee at the last minute:>DM: It's true that that story originally had a completely different ending, one suggested by Bob Layton. I believe it involved an alien race (The Kree?) which had reached the limits of its evolutionary possibilities. By generating an alien/human hybrid (impregnating Carol with an alien seed), a new evolutionary path could be created and the dead end could have been circumvented. However, after that storyline had been set up and AVENGERS #200 plotted, a story came out in another title which almost exactly duplicated the story we had scheduled for AVENGERS #200. So a last minute alternative was hammered together (hence the plot credit for four different people on that issue) and was hastily drawn and scripted to meet extremely tight deadlines.
>>149228286>>149228292>>149228267Really though, it was incredibly stupid that they changed the plot at the last minute just because a What If issue happened to have a sort of related story (the Supreme Intelligence having a "son"). Nobody would have cared.
>>149228330People did care back then, it's hard to imagine now
>>149228321Well Claremont didn't want to kill Jean in the first place and the original ending had the Phoenix taken away from her but then the whole anecdote over her destroying a planet and that misdrawn panel meant editorial said to kill her.
There definitely was some degree of annoyance at the time. It didn't help that early X-Factor was also a messy odd one out compared to the other books because the outfits and "pretending to be mutant hunters" was an odd hook for the book and X-Factor took a while to become interesting.
I don't think people lost their mind I just think narratives become concentrated and people repeat the same stuff over and over again because we are dealing with weird stuff here. I do think some criticism is warranted.
>>149225255Secret Wars II would have been fine if it had been mostly contained to its own book like the original Secret Wars was, but the fact that the Beyonder showed up in every single comic for several months was just too much.
The writers at Marvel resented the Beyonder so much, that as soon as Marvel left they rectonned the Beyonder to not actually be omnipotent, he was really a sentient Cosmic Cube gone wrong, and all of the major cosmic figures in the Marvel Universe like the Celestials were just pretending to be scared of him. And then they turned him into a woman for several years, take of that what you will.
Anecdote: When Jim Shooter started submitting scripts to Mort Weisinger, Weisinger paid him less than his other writers. It took William Woolfolk guilt-shaming Weisinger to get him to pay Shooter the same rate as Edmond Hamilton, Leo Dorfman and Otto Binder.
>>149228340The way they fucked up Cyclops by having him leave his wife and son also made a lot of people bitter. I agree that keeping him retired forever like Claremont wanted was stupid, but there were better ways to handle that.
Another problem was that X-Factor went so far as to revert Beast to being like he was in the Silver Age X-Men even though everyone was used to and loved furry Beast by now. It didn't stick, because again, more people like furry blue Beast from the Avengers and Defenders then cared about Silver Age X-Men nostalgia.
>>149228362Does anyone have anything positive to say about Weisinger?
he just seems like he was a shithead to everyone.
>>149228340Big Jim on Dark Phoenix (since I am already blog posting):
http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/origin-of-phoenix-saga.html/
>Here’s what happened:>Chris, X-Men editor Jim Salicrup and I went to lunch at the Ultimate Lotus, a Chinese restaurant that happened to be in the same building as Marvel (575 Madison Avenue) to discuss a new story arc for the X-Men. Freewheeling, I pointed out that while Marvel had many heroes who started out as villains–the Black Widow, Hawkeye, several others–we’d never had a hero who went bad. I suggested that Chris evolve Phoenix into a villain, permanently and irrevocably, the new “Doctor Doom” for the X-Men. Salicrup and Chris liked the idea and Chris began work on what eventually became the “Dark Phoenix” saga.>In those days, I had so much to deal with besides the comics–the change in the copyright law, schedule problems, two or three lawsuits against Marvel, domestic licensing, international licensing, fighting with the board of directors re: royalties and incentives, trying to teach the writers to write, the pencilers to tell stories, the inkers to ink, the colorists to color (the letterers were basically okay) that I often didn’t read the comics until they were in the “make-ready” stage. Make-readies were, essentially, printer’s proofs.
>>149228373There's an apocryphal story - in fact, I think it might have been Shooter who shared it in an interview - that at Weisinger's funeral they couldn't get anyone to go up and give a eulogy and finally someone stood up and said "well, his brother was worse".
>>149228368>I agree that keeping him retired forever like Claremont wanted was stupid, but there were better ways to handle that.Common misconception, Claremont never planned to fully retire him. He wanted him to still appear. Just to give him some degree of growth. In that picture post you can clearly see Claremont talks about "What's it like for him to be a father? How does he related to things? How does he deal with being married?" He planned for Scott to still be around. Changing this was a big like One More Day with Spider-Man.
>>149228340There seems to have been some confusion between Claremont, Byrne and their editor over whether Jean was meant to be going bad for just one story, or permanently. Byrne though it was permanent, which let to him escalating the scale of what she did, and nobody else at the time had an issue until the story was going to end with her just being temporarily depowered.
And I'm sure there were a number of readers who were annoyed, but we probably shouldn't treat the ones who are still annoyed today as being reflective of how everyone felt. If they're still that mad about a comic book from 1985 like it just happened, they probably are the kind of turbo autist /co/ attracts.
Claremont thinking he could just have Cyclops marry his OC and retire is a whole other thing, the moment where he had to learn hard lessons that he didn't own the X-Men, and couldn't permanently retire a character if other writers wanted to use them. But as rushed and weird as his romance and marriage was, a lot of the exact same readers are angry that wasn't allowed to be permanent.
>>149228042>>149228321>>149228340Jean being brought back might not have been the first even of its kind, but it happened in an otherwise bold and innovative period, one where they could have gotten away with killing a classic character like that, which might have not lead to the wave of fakeout deaths that followed.
>>149228381>When I read the X-Men make-ready that included the scene in which Phoenix destroyed a Shi’ar starship, killing hundreds, and an inhabited planet, killing billions, curious, I asked Jim Salicrup to show me whatever else was done on the storyline. Because Claremont and Byrne were very efficient, on time and professional, the next several issues were well along. The climactic issue was still in the plot stage, I think. I think Byrne had not yet begun to pencil it. At any rate, I discovered that Chris (and John) had backed down from the idea of Phoenix becoming the X-Men’s Doctor Doom. The plot indicated that Phoenix would somehow be mind-wiped and let go. Back to living at the Mansion, hanging around with Storm and company, sitting at the same table for lunch, etc.>That, to me, would be like taking the German army away from from Hitler and letting him go back to governing Germany.>Did I have a “moral” issue with that? Yes. More than that, it was a character issue. Would Storm sit comfortably at a dinner table with someone who had killed billions as if nothing had ever happened? Nah.>I don’t know whether most people grok this idea, but the Editor in Chief is charged with governing, managing and protecting all of the characters. It was my job to make sure the characters were in character, and I was the final word on what “in character” was. Not Chris, not John, not any freelancer. The company relied upon me to manage and protect the company’s intellectual properties.>Anyway….
>>149228403>I told Chris that the ending proposed in his plot didn’t work. It wasn’t workable with the characters, and in fact was a totally lame cop-out, storywise. I demanded a different ending. Chris–enraged–asked me just what that might be. I suggested that Phoenix be sent to some super-security interstellar prison as punishment for her crimes. Chris said that the X-Men would never stop trying to rescue (?!) her and that the story would become a loop. I said that then he should come up with an ending.>I wasn’t privy to Chris and John’s conversations that night, but whatever.>The next morning, Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer–they’d have to kill Phoenix. I said fine.>I don’t think he expected me to say that, since killing characters just wasn’t done in those days. Chris waffled a bit, but then I became insistent! She’s dying. That’s it.>Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.>I insisted on the “solution.” It was done–brilliantly, if reluctantly–by Chris and John. And that’s was the issue that propelled the X-Men to the top for, what, two decades?>That’s the story. Check it with Salicrup. Actually, Chris would probably corroborate it, too, though he’d make it seem that he was smarter and that I was a doofus. I’m okay with that. Chris doesn’t get nearly enough credit for what he accomplished. I’m proud to be the doofus who helped to enable it.
>>149228368>but there were better ways to handle that.Like paying attention to what he was writing and telling Claremont that "no, you can't marry Cyclops to your OC he met five issues ago, and no, they can't have a son."
>>149228400>Claremont thinking he could just have Cyclops marry his OC and retireLike I said here:
>>149228391That picture is a Q&A from Claremont. I don't know why people got it in their head he was going to be fully retired as a happy ending. Claremont did intend for Scott to still be around, just to also write stories about him differently.
He never intended permanent retirement. Just that he wanted that character to transition into adulthood.
>>149228402By the mid 80s it was already leading to more characters getting killed off to try and make stories important and meaningful. Some level of "we screwed up and have to bring a bunch of these characters back" was always inevitable from the moment the industry saw money in big death stories.
>>149228085>>that picThe pose if an homage (reference) to the Pietà marble sculpture by Michelangelo.
>>149228430I know, I was just commenting on that graphic novel line.
>>149224043Amerisharts care more for shitskins than the LGBT
t. Twitter during Pulse nightclub shooting
>>149228368>>149228340One thing to keep in mind was that the original pitch of X-Factor didn't even include Jean and Scott. It was going to be Iceman, Beast, and Angel (the original X-Men that Claremont didn't care about) along with Havok and Polaris, but Claremont didn't want that either, he just didn't want any X-Books he didn't control period even if it used characters he wasn't using. If he had just accepted that pitch at the time, things probably wouldn't have escalated.
>>149228441Didn't they also consider using Dazzler instead of Jean at one point?
>>149228436Oh, my bad. I misunderstood.
>>149228438>Amerisharts care more for shitskins than the LGBTAs it should be. Racism is way worse than homophobia. Being mentally ill should not grant you any special privileges.
>>149228441I don't think Claremont is as much of a control freak as people make out he did care but he didn't fully believe "these are mine don't touch" as much as people seem to think. I think he was balancing what the line was vs what editorial wanted the line to be. He did New Mutants to keep them happy and balancing things out. He did offer them alternatives to Jean.
>When John and Roger Stern and company proposed the resurrection in X-Factor, I countered to it. The pitch I made to Jim Shooter was that we utilize her older sister, Sarah. For me, as a writer, that was a far more intriguing reality, because we’d introduce a Grey back into the team, but we would introduce a Grey who was a mutant, who hated the idea of being a mutant, who hated the idea of being an X-Man, yet accepted the responsibility. More importantly, she was uninvolved with any of the four guys.>There was no, ‘I am the center of Scott’s life,’ which made her totally accessible emotionally to Bobby and Warren and Hank, and it allowed Scott to continue, unvarnished, with his relationship with Madeline. I mean, on one level, I was looking at it and thinking, ‘If you bring back Jean and Scott dumps his wife and his newborn baby, to go back and embrace his old girlfriend… ew, icky, disaster for the boy.’ And so I made the pitch and Jim actually thought it was a good pitch. He thought it was a great character, he was happy for me to use the character anywhere else if I wanted to, but he had fully embraced, for commercial reasons, the resurrection story that the other guys had pitched and that was that.”
>>149228457Society condones all sorts of mental illness already, like being workaholic, masochistic, or hating yourself for not having Hollywood looks. What's one more?
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>>149228469Those quotes are from claremont btw, I didn't properly attribute them.
>>149222920 (OP)posting in an active Shooter thread RIP the Shooter
>>149228474You can condone that sort of behavior, that's fine. But they don't deserve their own month or their own bathroom or whatever else they think they deserve just because they happened to be molested by a male family member when they were 6. Sorry for your trauma, but no.
>>149228441Dazzler was actually going to be the fifth team member. But then Jean was suggested.
>An annoying little eager-beaver fanboy named Kurt Busiek had come up with the idea that Phoenix was not, in fact, Jean, but a precise duplicate created by the Phoenix Force as a “housing” for itself, and the REAL Jean was in suspended animation at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, where the shuttle crashed. When [Bob] Layton came up with the idea for X-Factor, I was reminded of this notion and suggested it would be a way to put Jean back into the group. Shooter agreed, and Roger Stern and I concocted a two-part crossover between The Avengers and Fantastic Four to accomplish just this end.”>John Bryne.
>http://jimshooter.com/2011/04/spider-man-musical-that-might-have-been.html/
One of my favorite things Jim Shooter has his story about him dealing with the hell that is Marvel licensing and the sheer incompetence of everyone.
>In the spring of 1987, lawyer Steve Massarsky closed a deal with Marvel Licensing for the live action performance rights for ALL Marvel characters for two years. His intention was to produce a traveling children’s arena show. He had previously tried to get the rights to the Cabbage Patch Kids and failed. Massarsky had no experience as a producer and no credibility whatsoever as a licensee. Nonetheless, he easily convinced Marvel’s licensing people to grant him the rights. He paid an advance of only $25,000—put up by a friend in the smoke alarm business. The Marvel licensing people had no idea of the value of the characters! They thought they were stealing the money!
>During the negotiations, one concern Massarsky had was finding someone who knew the characters to write the show. The licensing people assured him that, once the deal closed, they would get Marvel’s “genius” Editor in Chief—that would be me—to find them a suitable writer. The licensing people thought highly of me because I had helped them close many deals. Taking me along to pitch to potential licensees, like Mattel, meant that they didn’t ever actually have to open a comic book, or have a clue who the characters were. And I was great at selling the sizzle, the romance of the characters that I loved.
>Example: The licensing people thought that the Amazing Spider-Man and the Spectacular Spider-Man were two different characters and licensed them to different film producers. Lawsuits ensued. They licensed the Avengers, including Iron Man, to a film producer, then, having no clue that Iron Man was an Avenger, licensed Iron Man to another film producer. Lawsuits ensued.
>The live action rights, however, were clean.
>>149228492This is an inherently stupid idea but comics need more people like Busiek who bother to think up this sort of explanation rather than just handwave everything away. I will never not admire his continuity autism.
>>149228493>The licensing people thought that the Amazing Spider-Man and the Spectacular Spider-Man were two different characters and licensed them to different film producers. Lawsuits ensued.Do we have any evidence beyond this anecdote from Shooter that this actually happend? Because that's hilarious.
>>149228457>Being mentally ill should not grant you any special privileges
>>149228362>>149228373>>149228390Here's an unpublished obit from Woolfolk on Weisinger: https://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2012/04/woolfolk-on-weisinger.html
It puts Jim Shooter's career in perspective when you realise this is the kind of man who was his boss when he was only 14 years old.
>>149228508The licensing people were definitely inattentive and stupid enough.
>>149228509>being born dumb vs having a fetish for penisGee, I wonder which one I should have more sympathy for.
>>149228511>Most writers who worked for Mort Weisinger would probably have paid to buy a ticket to his hanging, but they could not afford the price that scalpers would have charged.Fucking kek
>>149228257And if any omnipotent character could be considered Shooter's self-insert, it would be Molecule Man.
>>149228511The one advantage Shooter had at the time was that he was still living in Pittsburgh and dealt with Weisinger remotely. That way, he didn't have to put up with the verbal abuse that the New York based writers suffered. By the time Shooter moved to New York, Weisinger had retired.
>>149224948Have you ever seen rev Billy Graham and super Star Billy Graham in the same room together ?
>>149226132>>149228161>>149228198>which is a pretty fucked up thing to say about someone.Jim could be very diplomatic on his blog, he often takes responsibility for situations by saying "the buck stops with me" even after explaining things that happened to the best of his recollection. That being said, Jim definitely had the attitude of "I am the only safe port in a stormy sea".
One big issue he had to deal with when he first became EiC was deadlines, because creators constantly missed them. I do think Jim felt to some degree that everyone but him was imcompetent. What level of imcompentence varied greatly. I wouldn't call this a God complex or him being a control freak but it was something. Sometimes his attitude was justified. But other times it wasn't.
Like John Romita Snr said, post Secret Wars success he definitely stepped up his editorial oversight in a way.
>>149228490Nice projection
>>149222920 (OP)RIP
One thing I've noticed is that there doesn't appear to be any mention of him having a wife or kids anywhere. Was he a lifelong bachelor?
>>149228564Yeah, missing deadlines were a real issue. To compensate, back then Marvel still had "evergreen" inventory issues to be released whenever the intended issue wasn't ready to print, so that they'd always release a book on schedule every month. I think they stopped doing that by the 90s.
>HE HATED FAGGOTS
Bruh srsly it was the fucking 80's GRIDS aka AIDS was hitting NYC hard homos and junkies were randomly getting really really sick and dying.
Doctors were screaming bloody murder, those in the medical community were fucking terrified the government kept ignoring it cause faggot problem cutting funding and grants to doctors banning shit etc till the late 80's
People dont realize how fucking scary AIDS was back then. Thats why gays were a huge fucking no from the 80's mid 90's
>>149222920 (OP)RIP, he wasn't that old. Never liked him though, he's probably the reason why I prefer DC over Marvel.
>>149228565Yes, I'm projecting my experiences growing up with young boys who went through sexual trauma or were raised incorrectly or who had no strong male role model and witnessed how they just so happened to grow up gay. You are correct.
What you have is a fetish, it doesn't mean you should get any sort of special treatment. It's the same as "religious persecution". You're not special just because you believe in a different ghost man.
Big Jim represents what comics have always needed, someone who actually gives a shit about the characters enough to keep the books from becoming attention-grabbing slop. If there’s one thing I’ve learned as a modern fan of “dumb nerd shit”, someone needs to keep authors in line so they don’t publish every single bad idea they have and ruin the faith fans have in their works. In a business like this, someone needs to be the “asshole” that holds people to a higher standard. RIP to a real one, Jim. We need people like you now more than ever.
>>149228634>to keep the books from becoming attention-grabbing slopHe made them attention grabbing slop when he made Secret Wars and pushed events.
>>149228634>implying the worst 'attention-grabbing slop' ideas come from the writers and not the committee
>>149228604Okay Stonetoss.
>>149226446Least Loyal Italian.
Wasn't he the one that paved the way for comics being left wing woke propaganda in the 80s? Good riddance
>>149228640There’s a difference between crossoverslop and Superdickery-esque proto-clickbait or modern Spider-Man outragebait.
>>149228655Stan Lee was doing that, look at that letter page:
>>149228127
>>149228664The crossover slop with big calamitous events being overturned is what the stuff you're complaining about evolved from.
>>149228648Not your boogeyman, sorry. For the record, I don't hate gay people. I just don't think you're special for being gay.
>>149228602>how dare Reagan not save faggots from dying to GRIDS when they never stopped going to orgie or fucking strange men in restrooms and go fucking ballistic when you so much as suggest itWell what the fuck was he supposed to do? Kick down the door to PERSONALLY slap the cock out of a fag's ass (with gloves on of course) to prevent every single case individually?
>>149228634People who shit on Jim are often ridiculous. But people who overly praise him are as well. He didn't keep authors in line to the degree many, including you, think. He worked with them. Even he admits he couldn't have done anything without them.
>>149228406>Chris doesn’t get nearly enough credit for what he accomplished. I’m proud to be the doofus who helped to enable it.
>>149228685Perhaps put as much money into it as the war on drugs.
>>149228655No.
>>149228669Stan was against politics in comics and repeatedly said as much. Now shut the fuck up.
>>149228537The penis coughers aren't the ones burning down California rn
>>149228694>Stan was against politics in comics and repeatedly said as much. Now shut the fuck up.That picture is from Silver Surfer and the reply was written by Stan Lee himself. Stan put a black character in the issue of Silver Surfer who helps Silver Surfer because he knows what it is like to be pushed around. (Pic related is Stan's own words saying the opposite.)
So you're another outrage tourist or baiting.
>>149224924I didn't care for Crisis as a story, but a reboot was necessary. DC had less than 30% market share, they had to do something drastic and it worked great for a few years. I'd agree that the Death of Superman was a very tacky event that led to more tackiness from DC, but they eventually moved away from that for a few years when Carlin was EiC before fully embracing it again with Didio.
>>149225072Shooter would insist he wasn't. Just a very effeminate heterosexual, like Prince.
>>149226440Advertisers don't like that kind of language.
>>149228720*saying the opposite to what you think
Stan literally said they injected politics into Marvel comics.
>>149228634Jim represents why the industry is stagnant and mostly shit.
>>149222920 (OP)Top 5 Avengers writer, top 3 Legion of Super-Heroes writer, arguably the most underrated Daredevil writer of all time (seriously, his brief 70s run on Daredevil is arguably the peak of pre-Miller DD), and THE greatest editor in chief that any comic book company has ever had.
Rest In Peace, Jim Shooter. You've been missed in the industry for the last 30 years and you'll be missed on this mortal coil forevermore.
>>149228720>So you're another outrage tourist or baiting.Thread is full of them
Lee was a marketer and did what he felt was trending with the young audience at the time, which sometimes included contemporary liberal sentiments.
>>149228720>>149228728No, he didn't say anything of the sort. He explicitly said that politics have no place in comics. I'd post the fucking image and embarrass your faggot ass, but it's off topic.
NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT.
>>149224924Secret Wars predates Crisis on Infinite Earths and Jean Grey dying and coming back predates Death and Return of Superman. Marvel has spearheaded all the terrible ideas that have ruined capeshit.
>>149228726>no anti gay stanceAll we have is:
>Hulk #23 with two men trying to rape Banner in a YMCA, supposedly based off a real life experience of shooter.>A creepy gay man called Ken in X-O Manowar Shooter wrote in the 90s.>Northstar coming out or getting AIDS being nixed for supposed fears of moral panics/blowback.>And some other anecdotes about stories being nixed.
>>149228740>and THE greatest editor in chief that any comic book company has ever hadNot even top 5.
>>149228655Lee and Kirby were both hyperneurotic Jews who pushed politics all the time. Drop the milquetoast Comicsgate nonsense and see the forest for the trees, “wokeness” isn’t the beginning of subversion and it surely isn’t the end of it, either.
>>149228694Stan was a middle-of-the-road liberal who put middle-of-the-road liberal politics in his books, leaning heavily into it starting in 1968, a watershed year of social change in American society.
>>149228754I'm literally posting stuff Stan has said. All these images are things he said.
>>149228720>>149228127>>149228743Maybe it was marketing, it is a debate and we can't read his mind. But he did inject politics into Marvel, unlike what the other anon is saying.
Can you faggots keep your /pol/ addled brains in check for one fucking thread to remember a guy who was important to comics? If you want to argue about fags and wokeshit there’s every other fucking thread, every day until people are finally sick of this tiresome fucking culture war. Jesus. RIP Jim, comics could use a guy like you again.
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>>149228754Here is Stan saying the complete opposite of what you're saying.
Still regretting not getting those Sun Eater Legion issues signed when I had the chance
>>149228771Stickys become cesspits.
>>149223607Absolutely. As much a I dislike certain creator's work, especially in something like Big 2 comics with the shared continuity affecting everything, in the end they just wrote/drew a comic that I had a choice in reading. Vitriol like that is saved for people who caused true grief through their power they held.
>>149228770>>149228778>BUT STAN SAIDomg nigga kys
>>149228756>>Northstar coming out or getting AIDS being nixed for supposed fears of moral panics/blowback.This was the right call given what happened when he did come out in the 90s.
https://www.peterdavid.net/2012/12/17/creative-differences-part-1/
>Originally, I developed a story in which a scientist developed a fool-proof test that would enable couples to determine—along with the currently existing tests for actual genetic-based diseases–whether or not a mother’s unborn fetus was going to be a mutant. “You will give birth to something that many people will term a freak,” the doctor intoned. Parents had to decide whether or not to abort their child. Among other things, there were several intense discussions among the team members about a woman’s right to choose, with the pro-choice Polaris being particularly at odds with the right-to-life Rahne Sinclair.>The editors were gung-ho on the story, and it was drawn and scripted as intended… until a ton of backlash hit Marvel over Northstar’s being gay in Alpha Flight. And I mean backlash: For starters, representatives of a major retail chain told Marvel they didn’t want to carry any mutant-related toys, including the entire X-Men line, because the mutant line had been “tainted.” It was nuts. And no, I don’t blame John Byrne for it, so don’t even go there. But the upshot was that the Powers That Be ordered that nothing of any controversial nature was to see print in any Marvel book… especially a mutant book.>So key scenes were rescripted, mooting the question of abortion by having the doctor develop a procedure that would simply remove (somehow, amazingly, mystically) the mutant gene from the fetus. Yes, that’s right: He could rewrite DNA while in utero. Don’t look at me, I just work here.
>>149228793>one minute claim Stan said the opposite>the next minute you don't care what he said>bait this obvious
>>149228127Imagine being immortalized in the To the Editor page with an "i'm not a racist, but..." letter and signing it with your name and home address.
>>149228794We've got to archive all of PAD and Shooter's website material
>>149228803Pretty based. Wonder how he is doing these days.
>>149228803>with your name and home address.There was a time when people would just go to Jack Kirby's house, sit and watch him work and his wife would make them lemonade.
This is the world we have lost.
>>149228693>MO' MONEY FO' DEM PROGRAMSHow predictable. Oh, but lemme guess, throwing money at the war on drugs didn't solve anything.
>>149223861Yes please, but also of his early stuff. Do we know which Legion of Superheroes story was his first? Would love to see the quality of a 14 year old's writing at that time.
>>149222920 (OP)RIP to the guy who wrote the best issues of Turok, Harbinger, Ghost Rider and Fantastic Four
F
>>149223582Bendis already has a lot of defenders as it is.
I was the guy who tried to rape Jim at the YMCA. I travelled back in time to do it knowing that it would inspire Jim to be the best EiC at Marvel.
>>149222920 (OP)Rest in Peace Big Jim, the greatest editor of Marvel comics ever.
>>149228903It isn't that Bendis has defenders, it's that his detractors are few. I hate Bendis, people on /co/ and in online spaces hate Bendis. But Bendis still sold well because plenty of people like Bendis.
>>149228907Based gay rapist, grapist
>>149228571He was formerly married and had a son named Ben according to Obituaries.
I mean, he was 6’7 and was an “executive” of a media company. 50 years ago. Of course he could find a woman.
>>149228907Time travelling corrector rapist strikes again
Love Shooter. Gutted. Comics are fucking DONE.
>>149228907A true believer
Why does this faggot get a sticky when Elliot Hawk couldn't even reach bump limit earlier this year?
>>149229003>Elliot Hawkwho?
>>149228581We still hate them, we just pretend we don't.
>>149224524Most of the GI Joe line in the 70s floundered badly
He was a manly looking guy.
>>149229027Did you read what I wrote? I said I don't like Bendis. Unfortunately a lot of these slop writers, while hated here, are weirdly liked. Your quarrel is with the few plebs who like the slop at the big 2 still.
>>149223335>>149223047Rare "John Byrne on the right side for once"
>>149228918speaks more about /co/'s hate-boner than it does about his quality desu
>>149229090It's not just /co/. Online fan bubbles hate everyone. You get Reddit posts from people being like, why does everyone hate Bendis, every so often. People who hate stuff are more vocal than the people that like things.
>>149223610Not with that attitude
>>149226162I know, I wonder if he was black, he wouldn't have been killed.
>the amount of butthurt towards the man for not allowing the cultural marxists to poison the well with their insane propaganda in the 80s
you sure are a miserable sub-human lot
>>149225419From the story I remember hearing, Weisenger assumed Shooter was an adult and Shooter never corrected him about it until he was asked to come to the DC offices in person
>>149228581>don’t have random gay sex with strangers or do heroin >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Some people don’t want to be helped
>>149228316Sounds like you don't know very many English teachers.
>>149222920 (OP)Maybe he shouldn't have raped Carol.
RIP
>>149227326He said *good* anon
A letter to Stan Lee in Fanfare
>>149226160>baggy sleeves and neck>skintight on boobs, ass, and legsIn retrospect, what WERE they thinking?
>>149229434"Man, boobs, ass and legs sure are HOT"
Why does this faggot get a sticky when Elliot Hawk couldn't even hit bump limit?
>>149229458>>149229003I know I shouldn't be taking the bait but I'm just surprised this "earlier this year" thread doesn't even exist. Searching for "Elliot Hawk" on desuarchive just gives me these exact posts. Googling me just gives some young probably autistic Christian illustrator with fairly rough art. Is that you? Did he die?
>>149229421I really like this, very heartfelt
>>149229458Are you going to fill everybody in on who Elliot Hawk is and why anyone should care?
>>149227820It's good to see what others think about Ditko, but I still think that the doc harms his reputation because they were either speculating or believing popular false information about him. In interviews, Stan either misremembered stuff or outright lied. Ditko was very angry about this. If you want to read more about this, then you need to read small essays he wrote throughout the years and the biography Strange and Stranger. The problem with the essays is that finding them on the internet is difficult
>>149229458>Elliot Hawkwhom
>>149229245Marvel was already pozzed kek, dumb tourist
>>149229648They don't seem to be pushing false information though in that doc, it's very pro Ditko. Stan did get a bit caught out in that interview as well. So I'm a bit confused.
Any clue where to find such essays?
>>149227723Shooter's second Avengers run, and the early Stern issues that resolved it seem to be more read and well-known these days because of everything that happened with Hank and Jan, but Shooter's first Avengers run had a lot of the book's definitive 1970s stories, two battles with Ultron, with the introduction of Jocasta and Ultron's Oedipus Complex, the Nefaria Trilogy and the Korvac Saga. Somehow these days even a lot of the older Avengers fans don't seem to have read much from before 1998.
>>149223773Who were the two characters with solo books? I know Karate Kid was one, who's the other?
>>149229743This cover awoke something in some kids for sure
>>149229909Quit staring at cap's ass, gay anon
Wanda is right there
>>149229737He wrote them for The Comics, Robin Snyder's fanzine.
On that documentary they (again) say that probably one of the reasons why Ditko left is because he wanted the Green Goblin to be a totally random person. That's not true. He stated that he wanted him to be Norman. And that's the reason why Norman had a subtle introduction in the comic, way before ASM 37, or why he wants to get rid of Spider-Man in ASM 37 and 38
>>149229922Anything else they got wrong aside from that?
araki
md5: 8e51455800c4fc431ba60258fc740b8d
🔍
>>149229909>mm bug bite erotic
>>149229930Not sure. But it always annoys me because they give Stan Lee too much credit regarding the Goblin. I mean, at first he wanted him to be a demon. In the end, it always leaves Stan in the right side of history
>Ditko was right about it being predictable, but Stan's idea ended up being more effective and impactful
>>149228508>>149228515These are the same Marvel licensing suits who signed a deal to make Marvel toys of Wonder Woman, after all
>>149222920 (OP)Requiescat in pace.
>>149229933He passed my mind as I typed the post.
lockjaw
md5: 61334dcae498cc8c19b6e5233115b296
🔍
>the last good EiC Marvel had is dead
HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!
>>149223653 bendis posting is never not funny
>>149229909>>149229921A few artists had stories about Shooter instructing them they should be drawing Wanda with bigger boobs than the average heroine. She gets referred to as 'buxom' in this issue, and 'devastatingly voluptuous' in Shooter's Avengers short story.
We've lost a true man of culture, anons.
>>149230124Look at that vulgar display!
>>149230084Well, Shooter should have published Marvelman under the Epic line, which would have kept Moore at Marvel doing books, and we probably would not have had that silly legal drama surrounding the rights to the character.
I can see Shooter's logic of not publishing the book, but then also suing the creative team unless they changed the name seems like a bad business idea.
>>149230124>A few artists had stories about Shooter instructing them they should be drawing Wanda with bigger boobs than the average heroine. She gets referred to as 'buxom' in this issue, and 'devastatingly voluptuous' in Shooter's Avengers short story.
>>149230124I forget which artist it was and where it was at but I remember an anecdote where an artist steadily increased the size of a character boobs over a series.
>>149230153Wally Wood with Power Girl I think
>>149230153That was Power Girl, at DC, I think several artists did that with her.
>>149222920 (OP)Wtf? I'm only learning now that he founded Valiant
>>149223784He's probably drinking champagne and snorting coke now.
>>149230134I'll try to find a quote but I heard him say it at a con panel once
>>149222920 (OP)RIP to the savior of comics and the most looking Clark Kent ever
>>149230198Founded and got ousted from, the ingrates
>>149230124This combined with his personal info about the Legion of Sex Lovers upthread makes me appreciate the man even more
A true connoisseur
>>149222920 (OP)Ah, shit. Oh well. RIP
>>149229711Marvel was acceptably center-lib, in the 10s they went off the rails and decided they didn't give a damn about alienating the majority of potential readers.
>>149222920 (OP)F for fucking hell, man. If anyone could have saved comics, that was him.
Rest in peace, thanks for peak Marvel.
>>149230285He also wrote the Dazzler GN with the PG-level nude page in it, too.
This is like the first sticky in 3 years to get 1000+ replies
>>149230131Moore was too good for Marvel.
>>149223221>>149223243This is why /co/ loved this guy.
>>149230362Hasn't Perez gotten over 1000 replies?
>>149230362Only fitting, +1000 replies is the chan equivalent of being 6'7"
>>149230362What about PAD? What is surprising about this one is the relative peace here
>>149230393Anon, Perez died May 2022. That's over 3 years ago.
>>149230153Power Girl, but it's not true.
>>149230482>the way he just sucks in his mask as he breathes inJesus how out of breath is this guy
I spew a lot of hate. But I have no hate for Jim Shooter. RIP big man.
>>149223003>Caroltranny>worst post ITTLike clockwork
>>149230428Wait, his thread got less than 600 replies. Damn. But George Lowe's one had more than 1000
>>149230564Valiant were the best. The Best.
>>149230525The PAD thread was taken off sticky in the morning, barely 12 hours, it was bullshit
Not the hero the industry wanted, but definitely the one it needed.
>>149230482I shouldn't have used .mp4 I guess? whatever, still functions somewhat
>>149223607Look, life is shit right now, maybe for pretty much everyone. What we can still try to do is get our minds off it for a bit with our hobbies.
But then there's scumbags who ruin the little entertainment we can still expect, largely on purpose. It's fair to be pissed.
>>149230579>>149230564Is it true we'll never get reprints of stuff like his Solar due to the copyrights?
>>149223748If they cremate a body like that, they'd have to toss it in a bigger oven. Maybe roast him with some pizzas for the New York slice experience.
Bros should I honor big boy Jim by buying that DC's Finest of Legion of Superheroes?
>>149223861Fucking hell, PAD died, too?!
>>149230751Yeah, not too long ago.
>>149230751I remember we storytimed the whole Sin-Eater and the Death of Jean DeWolff in his honor
>>149230644Definitely didn't need him.
>>149230668No. You're a manchild.
Do the big two still follow "Every issue could be someone's first?" I get it's not for stuff like Watchmen but stuff like Archie does that without trying
>>149224164Damn that's awesome
I don't think the Piskor thread was stickied but it did hit bump limit.
>>149224262That's disrespectful towards Jim...
>>149224367They're going against it and sales are failing miserably, you tell me.
>>149230747Yeah it's got a solid selection. It carries on a little past Shooter's initial run into Cary Bates' stuff as well
>>149226166>>149226172>>149226181>>149226194This is awfully restrained considering how those resentful ex-writers talked about the man behind his back.
>>149226132>>149228161I didn't really find it unfair to him either, I thought it was fairly unbiased and spent a lot of time portraying his the unique circumstances of his rise in the industry from a very young age. Yes he was ambitious but he was what Marvel needed at the time. And for as much as the book gives Englehart and Starlin and co. credit for pushing the envelope and connecting with the audience it also makes clear the way that the ship was still sinking. And Shooter was the guy to patch it. The book paints a persuasive picture of Marvel's success in the 60s hinging on the delicate balance between the artists giving their all individually and Stan pulling everything together. And that's what Shooter understood and tried to get back to. Cause the individual artists and writers don't see the bigger picture, they only care about what's in front of them. And that's the way it should be to a point. But if it gets out of control like it did in the 70s it makes a huge mess. Cause it's not just Marvel (c)omics, it's Marvel (C)omics.
>>149230809A lot of that stuff was superfluous descriptions of powers that was unnecessary like explaining Colossus for the millionth time. And even then, Claremont's X-Men had so much shit in it. I think people were more forgiving then.
Nowadays decompression means a story is at minimum across 4 issues for a trade. But there are summaries and cast of character pages that old comics didn't have.
>>149230809Marvel will include a recap at the beginning of every issue. DC doesn't bother or care.
>>149230939Well kids did need those descriptions, but people younger than 18 haven't been comic buyers in decades so it's unnecessary now, yeah.
>>149225337>>149225340Thread surpassed 1000 posts
You can go fuck yourselves now
>>149226166Regardless of how you feel about Shooter, Guy Gardner was the perfect character to choose to do some shit like this
>>149231013I'm surprised the thread isn't deleting the older posts already I thought that always happened for threads after 1000 posts
>>149230843I can only imagine how much of a shit storm it was considering the reasons for Piskor offing himself.
>>149231091It was a huge shit storm, especially since there were whispies close to those named in his letter trying to spin damage control.
>Editor in Chief at 27
Have there been younger ones since?
>>149231102So he really was a giant
His hair is very straight and even in this picture RIP
>>149231145Nope, DeFalco, Harras, and Quesada were late 30s, Alonso and Cebulski mid-40s.
>>149231142So Ed Piskor, he killed himself because once upon a time he'd offered a 17-year-old girl the use of his guest bedroom and once this got out his book deal and artshow got cancelled.
>>149225488You wanna know how he got these scars?
>>149231142I wasn't in the thread, but Ed Piskor committed suicide due to allegations that caused all of his business opportunities to dry up and his podcast co-host to cut ties. A local news channel also doxxed his parents.
>>149231102God he was HUGE. i see Byrne and Gru. Is it that Mary Skrenes beside them? Mustache and glasses looks familiar too.
>>149225926>eminemAnon wants LESS gay in his comics, though
>>149231102Are we sure he's not standing on some ledge?
>>149231271He is lol. John Byrne is 5'11 and is only 8 inches shorter than Shooter.
>>149231102Reminds me a bit of Ted Cassidy.
>>149229102>People who hate stuff are more vocal than the people that like thingsespecially autistic no-lifers on places like these, they really think whining loudly and doing it every day magically makes it the majority opinion
that being said Bendis' Superman is still shit objectively
>>149225504Why do you hate yourself?
>>149227566X-Factor was a good move and I'm tired of people pretending it wasn't.
>>149230333Can confirm that this shit is working. My LCS owner is retiring as he is too old to run it anymore but the distributors also made his life harder by scheduling books to come out in such a way that he had to spend way more time away from his family in order to receive those comics.
So yeah fuck the big 2 for killing themselves in the most retarded way possible by removing themselves from the life support they had. You think they'll make more money if they sell in gas stations and bookstores? Hell nah. People want their smokes, alcohol, and snacks. At best you'll get a guy who buys one out of novelty because he used to read Batman 20-30 years ago but kids don't want to spend that much when they can go and get manga.
Even though the DM model is outdated this isn't the way to go.
>>149230124Alright let's combine Shooter's power scaling autism with boob-scaling. She-Hulk, Titania have to be the two largest ones followed by Scarlet Witch and Black Cat having the largest chest of normal women. Carol and Moonstone are next. Beyond that I don't know. Umar and Clea, Monica, Julia, Jessica, Brunnhilde are all ones I am unsure of and then there's all the X-Babes. I'd put Rogue and Emma at the same size and put them a slight notch below Carol and Moonstone or possibly a notch above them at the same level as Wanda and Felicia.
>>149227548Forgot to reply but I think the stuff Dwayne McDuffie said about Don McGregor and Billy Graham's work kinda elevated Black Panther too. So I guess them and Priest are what made him great.
>>149226418Women need big hair, piercing eyes, long eyelashes, and softness even when they are muscular.
>>149227344Don't forget he would also check the wikia to get any continuity gotcha points he could just like boss man Brevoort would do and then say what Otto was gonna do wasn't rape.
>>149230681Solar was licensed out when Valiant used him, it's up to whoever holds the rights now (which IIRC is Paramount but don't quote me)
>>149231271John Byrne? Absolutely
R.I.P.
I hate the fact that now I'm living at the time where legendary boomers are dying :(
>>149228003Jim saved Northstar from being Captain Marvel'd, that's cool
>>149222920 (OP)thought you meant Mark Waid died
A gentleman of fortune he was! A straight shooter, a Shooter named Jim!
>>149222920 (OP)Heaven's getting a based one. I'm sad, but also happy knowing that big Jim's up there in heaven, forcing them to write good comics.
>>149223275He died of Esophageal cancer after fighting it for more than 2 years. When I saw him in April he was a husk. on FB he cancelled appearances.
>>149228340Chris, you're talking about how cool Logan is killing wrong people for the right reasons, but we haven't forgotten about him stabbing Rachel to save fucking Selene.
>>149228506It's because it takes effort to make things work and keep it plausible or semi-plausible and it takes laziness to do what we've been seeing at Marvel for the last two decades and a half
>>149228548Wouldn't it be Ken Connell/Star Brand?
>>149231941He was powerful, but not omnipotent.
>>149231864>X-Factor by "Pontific" Peter David & "Amazing" Akira Toriyama>Cover by "Gorgeous" George Pérez >EiC is "Jolly" Jim Shooter
>>149228506but the ideas are stupid and convoluted.
>>149231983Akira Toriyama wouldn't lower himself to work under Shooter. Find some other capeshitter.
>>149232022It was based around what you needed to happen, which was Jean not being the person involved in killing.
>>149222920 (OP)Who is this faggot?
>>149232034You don't know much about Toriyama, do you? He spent his entire careet taking orders from Torishima and having his stories micromanaged because while he was an impeccable, once-in-a-generation artist, he couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag
>>149232034Don't be a thief of joy.
>>149231481because it was, people are only pretending it wasn't because they blame it for Secret Wars's crimes
>>149223752He wrote Secret Wars, of course they are.
The era when comics peaked.
>>149230668There is SO much media out there anon. So many books to read, so many movies to watch, and so on.Dwelling on stuff you don't like will only make it worse.
I have no interest in any Hollywood movies or modern comics, but you know what? I haven't seen DECADES of tokusatsu shows..and now so much of it is available streaming for the cost of an internet connection, no need for hardrive space
Comics from all of Shooters tenure I never read that are available and archived. Comics from indies in the 80s and 90's I haven't gotten too.
Games for systems from the 80's through the 2000's a cheap shitbox computer can emulate for free
There's so much that I will never be able to intake all of it in my lifetime, in all likelihood.
That makes me more upset than the fact that new stuff is bad, honestly. But it's a better problem to have.
>>149228469another reason why Claremont having his way would've been the better alternative. for all his idiosyncrasies that man simply does not miss
>>149222920 (OP)Did he ever have a part-time job as a mob enforcer?
>>149232034>Not wanting Peter David's hilarious storytelling with Toriyama's expressive art
>>149231864Which dead comic creator is shitting themselves the most right now?
>>149232504Chris Claremont, 100%. But he's not in Heaven.
>>149232533Claremont’s not dead
>>149232533Anon... Claremont is alive and still working...
>>149232533What, is Shooter going to haunt him?
>>149228492It's funny how we look back on comics and this kind of shit rather glibly these days but back then all of this was crazy as hell.
>>149231508>Alright let's combine Shooter's power scaling autism with boob-scaling.We could probably make a whole thread out of that. She-Hulk, Enchantress, Titania, and Volcana are all taller than humanly possible, so they'd be the biggest in actual size, though not necessarily in proportion to the rest of their bodies for all of them.
For normal height women, I'd go with Felicia and Wanda being the biggest naturals, just because Marvel made a point of telling us how big they are, with post-surgery Emma and Jessica Drew being up there too. Carol was in the conversation before she became Captain Marvel.
>>149222920 (OP)he was a complete asshole but fuck you had to respect him, Rest in piece
>>149223047>"fine, I'll do a story about faggots">Two gay men try and rape Banner based on his personal experiencesholy kek
>>149232047>zoomer detected
>>149230333I'm kind of surprised to read this from D'Orazio, of all people. I assumed she would have been in that pretentious fart sniffers club.
>>149223463>>149223539Is 73 really that young to die? I'm surprised when I see these guys die at like 55
>>149230747Yes, you should read the Legion in generl at least up to 5YL. It's some of the best cape comics ever produced.
>>149232758She sort of was for a short while back then but got ostracized by them for starting to ask questions
>>149232779He just wrote a story for the x-men’s last anniversary issue
>>149232780A little bit yeah. Stan Lee was like 95
>>149232758She's very disgruntled over getting hung out to dry by guys who called themselves feminists.
>>149224034I'll never understand why some people pretend the 80's weren't the best decade for capecomics, especially at marvel. Shooter was just a great editor and tard wrangler to make sure the quality at Marvel was to his liking
>>149225990Thor: I Whom the God's Would Destroy.
A graphic novel about Thor being depressed because he accomplishes more as Donald Blake than as Thor.
>>149232851Don't let Anthony Gramuglia see this.
>>149230482>>149230649>>149230688No sound on webms/mp4s outside of the /gif/ boards, newfriends
>>149224505>Not McFarlanenigga he created Venom, helped create image comics, and created Spawn
>>149232920Got a catbox link?
>>149232547His talent is. That shit died in like, 1992.
>>149231145Shooter is what companies want when they're hiring intern positions and asking for 10 years of experience
>>149231508>Forgot to reply but I think the stuff Dwayne McDuffie said about Don McGregor and Billy Graham's work kinda elevated Black Panther too. So I guess them and Priest are what made him great.IIRC Priest has a lot of praise for McGregor's Black Panther, but also some quibbles with it (like how often T'Challa gets completely fucked up in fights) that he sought to fix up in his own run
>>149223539Even with all the fat, dannyboy walks like a faggot
>>149232707How does Mary Jane rank here?
>>149232504>Gruenwald meets Jim with a hearty handshake at the peraly gates.
>>149229434late 70s / early 80s .
>>149223047There was a time when capeshit wasn't gay? That's crazy
>>149224545Unironically because that was the company culture. Marvel bullpen shared office with the MAD magazine, both where owned by Cadence iirc.
>>149232533Something you'd like to tell us, anon?
>>149232836Fuck. That's terrible.
>>149225417>and Gerber later killed Leonard and Rhonda off.Wait when did he do that?
>>149233284I legit thought Claremont was dead and obviously his history of inserting his fetishes makes his unGodly degeneracy plain as day, anon.
>>149232069He had more than one editor and he clowned on them. Either way they were all more talented than Shooter.
>>149232071I'm not.
>>149232473Toriyama is a funnier writer.
>>149232924Yeah and Perez is an industry legend who barely got more than 600 replies when he died
>>149223221Best thing ever written. We need jim to be reborn & be back in comics
>>149223582When Cates dies I will literally throw a party while singing "fuck you asshole I'm glad your dead" for days straight
>>149232946Yeah he didn’t transition into the modern era well.
>>149233333Nice get, but I honestly don’t remember what the story was. I will say I liked his little tidbit of rogue with night crawlers look having a blast with spidey in one of those random “continuation of his run” books that he got 20 years ago
>>149223539God, he's like the people from Wall-E...
>>149233519Is Cates that bad?
always thought he was just bit of edgelord blowhard with a bt to much ego. which isn't a good thing, but I didn't think it earned him that much hate
>>149232946>1992A lot of things happened that year . . .
>>149233354Spite, I assume.
>>149233612No, I send when he did that
>>149233605Cates was a bit to popular for some people’s taste a few years back and some blame him for “tainting” venoms lore with Knull. As if the symbiots were EVER anything more than a blah concept saddled on writers constantly making shit up for it as they go along
I honestly want to know what shooter thought of venom
>>149233519Don't worry, he'll outlive you.
>>149222920 (OP)RIP Big guy. You're, and will be, missed.
>>149233688Adding lore to the concept made them worse though.
>>149233730By the time cates got to them they had already had THREE terrible backstories written in years after the fact and ignored by the next asshole writing. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
>>149233361And if the news tomorrow reveal he was found dead in his kitchen with a knife in his back, you've got nothing to do with it, right?
>>149232924Nobody cares about Spawn. I've met people who are surprised it's even still going.
>>149233777Sadly, that is correct.
>>149233466 If you just put a note that Perez co-created Starfire and Raven, it would've gotten more attention.
>>149231253Skrenes is not there. That's from Roy Thomas' wedding in 1981. Mustache and glasses is Archie Goodwin. The guy next to Byrne is, I assume,Gruenwald since it looks like him. No idea on the guy opposite Goodwin or any o the women.
>>149232504Gerber
In fact, a writer dying and then being bossed around in the afterlife by the same overbearing editor he thought he'd escaped via death is a very Gerber story.
>>149233970I think second from the left might be Ralph Macchio (not the Karate Kid)?
>>149230333>run & patronized by "low class" uncouth proletariat barbariansShe literally explained why everyone hated Piskor with this.
>>149222920 (OP)Big Jim was too based for this world. RIP big dog.
>>149231508>You think they'll make more money if they sell in gas stations and bookstores?I think one of the the main reasons for the shift into Squirrel Girl twitter-woman shit was they were trying replace the LCS/floppy business model with a library/trades business model (there are 100,000 libraries and they pay MSRP for everything, plus digital licenses). Appealing to librarians (women) means appealing to Publishers Weekly (women), hence diversity/woke/girl power etc.
The problem is, if my local libraries are any indication, what used to be huge graphic novel/manga sections have shrunk alarmingly since then (libraries are just stocking much, much less across the board).
>>149233703Cares for his head smashed in an accident.
>>149232851damn she was based in the end
>>149234165It's definitely not Macchio who was way skinnier.
>>149233466That was a damn shame. Perez was the goat artist. I liked him more than Lee, Buschema, Byrne and the rest.
>>149234165Speaking of not Ralph Macchio, another Shooter invention.
>>149233630>>149233354Alright ESL, I might have saw it on some website but I can't find it now. All the things I can find is just one cameo Leonard makes in Vertigo Winter's Edge issue 2.
>>149232977Interesting.
>>149233059>>149232707Ah yes I forgot to say Volcana and Enchantress. Jean, Tigra, Madelyne, Selene, Magik, Sue, Jessica Jones, Elektra, Silver Sable and Domino(both are sometimes bigger), Gwen, Firestar, Monica, Dagger, and Crystal are all pretty good mid-tiers. There is a gradient but I would say they are all mid. Black Widow and Jan are tricky. I guess they would be the top of the middle? Though sometimes I vaguely recall Janet is flat. I dunno. Jubilee and Kitty are flatties for sure. Mystique gets her own tier of being whatever the hell she wants.
I would say MJ ranks around where the X-babes like Rogue, Polaris, Storm, and Psylocke are in canon, even if by my wishes she would be as big as Felicia. She-VenoMJ? Yep that would be She-Hulk tier. Goddamn I fucking hate the current events going on. Shooter would be disappointed. WGMI bros, we just gotta create our own shit.
Y'know, I'm still pissed Peter David's sticky was removed after less than 24 hours, I'll never forgive the mods for such a heinous act.
>>149222920 (OP)rest in peace king, my respects from Spain, to him and his friends.
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/87882675/#87882675
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/88747082/#88747082
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/96988706/#96988706
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/100213034/#100213034
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/113907052/#113907052
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/117789860/#117789860
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/120744825/#120744825
>>149234661Same, I was flabbergasted when it happened.
>>149229458Fuck I forgot he died this year. His Fist of Power run was fucking kino.
>>149230333Holy shit, Val D'Orazio said something that I didn't immediately roll my eyes at. Wow.
>>149229458Seriously, who the fuck is that?
>>149233970No, I think to Byrne is Roger Stern.
>>149234041Hell yeah it does, I'd read that comic
>>149234417>Interesting.Once again, I'll link you to Priest's old blogpiece about it: https://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/panther/start.html
damm, these ones only in the last five years:
I think some of the next ones are going to hit harder: Frank Miller and others.
Peter David May 2025
Keith Giffen Oct 2023
John Romita Sr Jun 2023
Tim Sale 2022
Neal Adams 2022
Denny O'Neil 2020
Juan Gimenez 2020
Albert Uderzo 2020
Kevin Conroy 2022
no sticky:
George Perez 2022
Greg Hildebrandt 2024
John Cassaday 2024
Michael Zulli 2024
Carlos Pacheco 2022
Kevin O'Neill 2022
Alan Grant
Francisco Ibanez
ARLEEN SORKIN
ED PISKOR
>>149234873>Also, Panther was a black super-hero and, the most basic economic lesson this business can teach you is, minorities and female super-heroes do not sell (but, kudos to Marvel for trying to do both with the black female version of CAPTAIN MARVEL).
>>149230333>The Big 2 are embarassed by LCS and their owners/patrons>They'd rather do business with people like Barnes & Noble, which is run by similarly douchey people who stock tons of forgettable afro-feminist slop
>>149228400>
Claremont thinking he could just have Cyclops marry his OC and retire is a whole other thing, the moment where he had to learn hard lessons that he didn't own the X-Men, and couldn't permanently retire a character if other writers wanted to use them. But as rushed and weird as his romance and marriage was, a lot of the exact same readers are angry that wasn't allowed to be permanent.
Even ignoring
>>149228414 's point about him kinda being in the background still "around", this was the 80s when continuity wasn't something to wipe your ass with before you played with all the toys you liked, he absolutely could have, characters being replaced and the like wasn't *constant* or anything but it absolutely did happen and if a writer did it and it got approved by the EiC then you had to go through the EiC to undo it because being canon manager and the "don't just constantly retcon eachother's shit you lil faggots" guy was basically the EiC's job in regards to the storytelling side of the business aside from any personal projects and sub-in work.
It's only after Shooter left and they realized midway through DeFalco's tenure that Dad wasn't coming back and the belt wasn't a factor anymore that things became "so long as Corporate gets what they want you can do whatever the fuck you want." where characters stay in circulation fucking forever unless they're lucky enough to be forgotten about.
>>149228373The best thing you can say about Mort is that if you read between the lines, for all that he was a colossal asshole and bastard, he genuinely does seemed to have cared about Shooter, as bizarre as that is, because unlike others he merely bullied and harassed and threatened him, and gushed with pride about his accomplishments, rather than doing things to him he did others, like having a man dance for his amusement in public while taunting him about how he needed this job to feed his family before firing him.
>>149228454Dazzler was gonna sub in for Jean until Bob suggested bringing her back via a loophole and got approval for it yes.
>>149228640There's a difference between doing an occasional event and a nonstop cavalcade of random, repetitive drama where every writer is trying to one up the previous one and make a bigger bad guy with a deeper more personal stake for the hero and the only status quo that exists is "character X from when I was 14 is here and just like how I remember them, and I remember them incorrectly!' anon.
>>149235011I wish I could be so positive. Cockfighters and Dogfighters are also proud of their animals when they win, too. I just see it as Weisinger being proud he had a prize goyim he could pay peanuts and lord over. If he wasn't worried about his parents stepping in, he probably would've humiliated him more.
>>149234828It's 100% Gruenwald.
>>149234933>George Perez 2022He had a sticky
>>149235176>There's a difference between doing an occasional event and a nonstop cavalcade of random, repetitiveWhen was Secret Wars II published?
>>149235201Right, he would call up Shooter to harangue him every night about how much he sucked but then turn around and praise him to others likely in a way that was more about belittling the other person and likely making them resentful of Shooter (You're being outwritten by a goddamn kid!) than out of genuine praise. I mean he used to go around and call Shooter "my little charity case" so I don't think he actually gave much of a shit about him. Mort was just an asshole.
>>149235201>>149235259To be clear I'm not saying Mort secretly adored him or was merciful on purpose, just that what we saw there was probably the extent of his capacity for something resembling compassion in hindsight.
It's definitely not the parents thing, Shooter was defacto feeding them with his comic work and they were pretty helpless by all accounts..
>>149235246>When was the event constantly sabotaged by writers and meddled with by corporate when Jim's authority was weakening published.Anon I.....
tcjtodd
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>>149234275When Cartoonist Kayfabe looked at the Todd McFarlane/Gary Groth interview from TCJ, Ed pointed out how Groth and the Fantagraphics crowd all come from a higher social strata than a guy like McFarlane, who was living in a trailer park. A lot of those indie guys who publish through places like Fantagraphics and able to go a long time with minimal work and live comfortably are trust fund kids or have family money keeping them afloat.
As much hate as the Image guys got, they were all coming from near poverty in some cases.
Part is here
https://youtu.be/aYQOSEzw5Wo?si=zJDAnqnjIeC6rM5X&t=7873
>>149230333>Marvel and DC are made up of crazed commies who honestly believe they can just topple the Direct Market and just sell comics in Barnes and Noble.Barnes and Noble would have to downsize the manga section to make room for all of the slop the Big 2 push out and we all know that is never going to happen.
>>149235302The constant jumping through hoops some of you do just to glaze somebody... need I remind you who wrote it?
>>149227882>Resurrections, and status quo regressions were things that had been happening long before X-FactorThe last year or so of the original X-Men run had Xavier dead for realsies until they decided to undo it and claim it was a shapeshifter.
i didnt think this would bother me as much as it does.
>>149223047he was still quite happy to let his writers do everything but have characters openly admit to being gay. Just look at the depictions of Mystique and Destiny in X-Men which was Marvel's biggest comic of the time or Northstar in Alpha Flight. The implications of the writers and artists were so heavy-handed you couldn't fail to tell these characters were gay. Shooter gave all that the thumbs up and put them to print because it left enough wiggle-room for Marvel to plead innocent if any anti-gay groups started causing hassle. He did everything he could to show support for gay people short of putting the company at risk and I admire him for that. Vive la LGBTQ+!
>>149235437And that shapeshifter wound up inspiring Morph of TAS
>>149222920 (OP)Now this is a loss. May he rest in peace
>>149235434Secret Wars II was a linewide event with constant resistance both on the page from other writers in their own issues around it, and behind the scenes in the office as a whole. Internal politics were a regular problem.
>>149235575Yeah it was a piece of shit.
>>149228438>being born with a skin color vs shoving who you fuck down everyone's throat
>>149228340>Logan wouldn't walk out on his wife and kidYeah, right. Sure he wouldn't. And he also certainly wouldn't get a wife killed, or get weirdly close relationships with underage girls, either.
>>149235768And he certainly wouldn't kill his own son...
>>149233688Symbiotes are a mega cool concept, it's just that a lot of people writing them had no idea/bad ideas on what to do with them.
>>149235215Are talking about to the right of Byrne? Yeah, that looks like Mark Gruenwald. I'm talking about the dude in the middle, holding the lady. That looks like Roger Stern.
>>149233688To be fair, he did it after Bendis turned them into "green lantern"-lite
>>149231102God damn, no wonder the hippy writers were scared of him.
F to an industry giant (literally)
>>149234777No one. Retard anon's having himself a shart.
>>149234979The argument that "under different circumstances maybe he could've gotten this to stick longer and then later writers would've been stuck with it because muh continuity" is avoiding the fact that it's a horrible idea in the first place.
A team book character leaving the team for a while is fine, maybe he'll come back later in the run, maybe in a later run. Speedrunning a romance with your worthless new OC, marrying them and sticking him with a kid as well is a total dick move, whether it's Claremont with Cyclops or Hickman with Cannonball. Whoever stuck Jubilee with a baby that she basically just stole was also pulling a dick move. This stuff is really not the same as a long term romance plot readers have been invested in for years finally paying off with marriage and kids.
>>149235768>Logan wouldn't walk out on his wifeWhich wife? Remember that time he was married to Viper?
>>149236257Yeah. Peter and Mary Jane were a long time building before they finally tied the knot. Cyclops and Jean even had a huge hurdle. But suddenly he's shtooping Emma out of nowhere and it was shit.
>>149229458Ehh he wasn't all the big, I only ever liked the art he did for Xmen way back
>>149222920 (OP)F for the master wrangler
>>149236290Similarly, I'm not an X-23 fan, but I keep seeing fans complaining that giving her a younger sister out of nowhere that she has to tard wrangle has ruined the character.
There's positive developments that readers have been wanting to see for years, and there's sudden changes out of nowhere just to make your permanent mark on a book's history, or mark a character as your territory. Saddling a character with a sudden new relationship or family, completely changing their life and status quo from there onwards, you can't expect anyone to really like or support that except the writer's most enthusiastic dickriders who celebrate everything he does. Especially in situations where it's clearly being done for shipper reasons to keep apart an established pairing the fans actually want.
>But suddenly he's shtooping Emma out of nowhere and it was shit.You're one of the good guys, anon. /co/ is sadly full of people who ate that crap up and asked for more.
>>149236257Smasher's ass was her important thing. It's fine.
>>149234378Perez was, frankly, the only reason New Teen Titans was ever popular.
God, the writing in it is dreck.
>>149236495Wolfman is just not a good writer. Never has been.
>>149236495So is most 70s and early 80s capeshit.
>>149236495His Avengers comics though.
>>149222920 (OP)Who ever fills the void? All I ever see is legendary people dying with no other legendary younger people taking their place.
>>149236684>Who ever fills the void?No one? The void arguably hasn't been filled at Marvel since DeFalco got booted and hasn't been filled at DC since DiDio was brought in.
>>149222920 (OP)>biggest man in comics
>>149234933How many posts did Romitas sticky get? That seems like a question I don’t want to know
>>149235215Yes. Absolutely Gruenwald https://youtu.be/mp-XkXqQNdg?si=JqhvRsxq2QcLLNfx
>>149224541so then find a small publisher in the same situation that Marvel was in in the 1960s?
>>149236767DC. Shooter was hired by DC.
>>149236290>>149236425Emma worked better romantically with Banshee, IMO.
>>149236719Yeah it's pretty much all been downhill from the 90s
>>149236684Same thing with music and film desu. Nobody has genuinely managed to succeed Brittany in talen, let alone Madonna, as Queen of Pop, nor has there been anyone even a 5th as big as MJ since he died.
Similarly in film legitimately the biggest name "new" actor that isn't a hold over who's name can actually, legitimately, carry a film by itself is Ryan Reynolds, there's nobody comparable to Arnie or Jackie Chan or the like who wasn't already around as a relevant name prior to like, 2005 or so.
>>149236837At this point just put her with Namor again as a containment ship for them both and make Scotty Doesn't Know their theme song.
>>149225772>Ken PendersI've literally can't even recognize this name and I've been reading comics weekly since the last 90s
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>>149235305The industry is held hostage by rich assholes
>>149222920 (OP)The anti-thesis to current Marvel. RIP legend
>>149235866The problem with symbiots is they have no place in peters story. Even by Shooters standards he seemed to make no effort into trying to fit them in
>>149235950Yeah but bendis was just doing what Bendis does. Which is make shit up ignoring previously established lore and hoping it fits, which it didn’t but it also didn’t really interrupt ANYTHING that sybiots were doing in general, since the other lore attempts before it were just as bad
>>149222920 (OP)Oh god, he was 3 months younger than my dad is now...
>>149236959Yeah, he's a nobody to Marvel/DC/indie fans but he's infamous among Sonic fans
>>149237351who combined, make comic sales of $1,462!
>>149236684>Who ever fills the void?Nothing
The Void only grows bigger as time passes
The new blood don't care about comics and if they ever want to make graphic novels they will go for Mangas instead of Comics
It's very depressing but this is how things are now
>>149236959>>149237351>>149237468Fuck's sake, we're not starting this again. The criteria wasn't if he's important, it was "will his death make a thread on 4chan reach 1000 posts", and it will. He's irrelevant to the industry at large, but 4chan specifically is the kind of nerd community where a lot of people are invested on the small thing his work affected.
>>149222920 (OP)Sometimes when I wake up I dread the news of yet another old guard /co/ creator biting the dust.
And it seems my fears have become true this time around.
Sweet dreams Shooter, you were a good man.
>>149237584>a lot of people are investedAre they really though? All that shit was like 10 years ago.
>>149237655Open the catalog at any point here, there'll be a thread connecting to Sonic comics somehow. Check /v/ at any point, good odds a thread about the comics might be there. And of course, there's outright a general going on on /vg/ that's existed for over a decade and spun off of threads on /v/ made not about the games but about the comics.
>>149237680>to Sonic comicsLink me to the threads discussing 90s-00s Archie Sonic comics if it is so common instead of being a faggot who tells me to google it.
Shooter's contribution to comics was making every character speak in a wall of text to explain who they are and what their power is in every issue
>>149237747And making Marvel Comics #1 in just a few short years in the process.
>>149237713I'm not telling you to google it, you faggot, I'm telling you the direct conditions that lead to this. Check the catalog right now, I'm seeing an IDW Sonic thread immediately. "But IDW isn't Arch-" it's the same fanbase, at least here. IDW gets talked about in Archie threads and vice-versa, since IDW is in effect a spiritual continuation of Archie Sonic.
>>149237747And yet somehow they still sold
>>149237809You mean the fucking gooner thread, retard?
Yeah, I'm sure these people care about your nemesis who ruined your childhood.
>>149237965You know what, too much of this thread was taken away by retards like you already. Just go back to talking about Shooter
>>149237747And modern writers contribution to entertainment is for characters to painfully explain how gay they are, and to continually repeat his important it is about how gay they are
>>149224504youre a fag but youre kind of right
New posters care more about cartoons than comics. I don't even have to imagine what this board will look like in 2030. Probably just cartoons discussion
>>149238180Why did you answer the question I asked? Gosh dang it he deserved better
>>149237747Yet I still find comics from his era easier to read because each issue, even ones part of a story arc, feels complete, has clear and easy to follow storytelling and doesn't take me 5 minutes to read.
>>149238306I spoiled it for you in case you had the heart to know. Sorry. :(
>>149225575Holy shit... He looked fine just a couple years ago. That's fucking horrifying, I had no idea
>>149238514If not chemo, cancer itself and cachexia will eat someone alive.
>>149238514I saw him in April. He definitely looked worse than he did last year. But he was still full of life and great to talk to.
So sad that he's gone.
>>149230210He's probably drinking semen and snorting cock now.
>>149238648Is that Steranko?
>>149233605>>149233688Cates had dumb ideas, stilted writing and was cringedge on top of it.
>>149238648Is that Steranko?? Damn he still looks incredible
>>149238861He votes for Trump and everything.
>>149238861Dude is like a vampire eh
>>149238607>>149238648So sad. I fucking loved his BTS stories and interviews. Gonna miss him so much
>>149238876He was one of my favorite creators to meet.
Most creators sign your comic and treat it like shit and never want to talk.
He held them down with a comic board as he signed and he would talk to you for hours if you wanted. He was cool as fuck. I asked him if he would go back to Marvel and fix stuff if they let him. "I haven't gotten a call yet but who knows."
He signed about 20 books for me over the last 2 years.
>>149238865Gross but can't say I'm surprised. Could never hate him for it though, he's just too fucking cool.
>>149238898What a class act.
>>149238911I think Steranko's assistant got mad at me for taking that pic but it seemed like such a sweet moment.
>>149238865unfortunately inevitable fact about most of the oldhead comic creatives but their works cannot be understated
>>149238961Well worth it I say anon, thank you for sharing
>>149238648Big Jim S. and Big Jim S.
>>149238861Hopefully that's not a wig. It was disappointing to know that Stan Lee used one.
>>149238974np. You can definitely see Jim Shooter's passion in it. He's telling some epic tale.
>>149238989I'd definitely call it a wig.
>>149238997I'm bald and I think wigs are for the insecure.
>>149238673>>149230210>>149223784Byrne made a thread on his forum. Basically gave condolences to family and friends. Very perfunctory post.
>>149239036The grandeur of a man is measured by his enemies. Or something like that.
>>149239036For Byrne that's probably nicer than I'd expect.
>>149239036I forget Byrne is still around
>>149238989>It was disappointing to know that Stan Lee used one.It was depressing as hell is what it was
>>149238514Cancer, and cancer treatment for that matter, eats you from the inside.
>>149238989Yeah it's a wig anon.
>>149238966>unfortunately inevitable fact about most of the oldhead comic creativesNot really, Steranko's politics have apparently always been sort of out of the norm, he was into the John Birch Society in the 60's which some consider to be the forerunner to a lot of modern right wing political thinking.
Meanwhile, Steve Ditko...
>>149239356He writes like the Disney font.
>>149238865Meh, I disagree with his beliefs and can think his tweets come across as self-parody but at least he hasn't done anything embarrassing as EVS or Mike Baron
>>149239413*He wrote like the Disney font
>>149238989>>149239028Steranko built his whole persona on bravado
It's a fucking wig Anon
>>149239413>the Disney font.That's Walt's handwriting.
>>149228161>The Untold Story for how much it whitewashes and praises the Quesada/Alonso era towards the end of the book, though.It's pretty obnoxious how much Howe craps on everyone in the Silver-Bronze age but sucked up to the 'modern' guys at the time.
So what you're saying is now he's Dead Jim?
>>149239596He's not the only one who does that, but yeah
>>149239452If there's one thing about Shooter and Steranko is that both men while presenting some level of bravado, had enough sense to play up a character somewhat to the public to both intensify it but also lampshade it. That doesn't always work but luckily both of them had good communication skills and Steranko had a charisma to him. His tweets about Bob Kane and that a bit fake sounding story are still funny even if it's not 100 percent true.
I have yet to read his history of comics but his appearance on Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked was stellar as well. Wish Shooter appeared on there too like Paul Levitz did. Jeanette Khan only appeared in DC documentaries that dealt with Watchmen or The Dark Knight Returns from my vague memory of watching that stuff.
>still a sticky
A lengthy sticky for a lengthy man
>>149239356I really love this man
>>149240027A worthy sticky.
>>149222920 (OP)So Long Space Cowboy
Did we ever find out why he would shoot Jims?
>>149236317Yeah I liked how he drew rogue.
>>149227985>If I had it to do over again, I never would have accepted the appointment as editor of the Spider-Man franchise. I made a lot of mistakes. I hurt a lot of people. I lost a lot of friends. It's a difficult thing for me to discuss. We'd all like to be heroes of our own stories, and it's hard to tell the story of when you were a chimp. I spent two and a half years of my life being an incredible chimp, paralyzed by my own chimp-ness and chimposity, and wholly convinced that, if I lost my job at Marvel, the world would end. Well, I did and it didn't. And now, nearly two decades later, I have some maturity and experience under my belt. Not that I'm any less of a chimp at 40 then I was at 22, but I have the perspective and, yes, the wisdom now to be horrified by the choices I made.Damn, man.
>>149239596Playing devil's advocate:
I do feel a lot of that was likely down to Howe being too close to the 2000s for anyone to be willing to go on the record about juicy gossip, boardroom fights, or anecdotes of misbehaviour. The most substantial criticism he could comfortably write about was Ike Perlmutter's penny-pinching. Like, if someone had written a book about Marvel in the 70s, there probably wouldn't be anything in there about the conflicts between Stan and Jack/Steve during the 60s.
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>>149227985>The New Deal: Mark Beachum and Peter David completely re-envisioned Felicia Hardy, The Black Cat, ho obsessed over Spider-Man while we obsessed over her. From Spectacular #115.An amusing misspelling of "who," or perhaps not?
>>149240876The way things were structured in the 2000s prevented a lot of the same kind of pettiness. Not to say there was no pettiness, there was. I somewhat think there is a post crash mindset that people had, almost a, we're happy just to be alive and kicking.
>>149228381>trying to teach the writers to write, the pencilers to tell stories, the inkers to ink, the colorists to color (the letterers were basically okay)heh
>>149240950True, I think it's that plus the growing corporate nature of Marvel -- especially once they were sold off to Disney. They probably have everybody sign NDAs and strict contracts now. No more grouching off to The Comics Journal like Byrne or Moench used to do.
>>149240968Tbf having talked to a bunch of artists at conventions and heard a few more recent anecdotes and stories I think the online world also means there is a sense of disconnection now. And the problems now seem more social media driven pathetic shit and the people checked out from that stuff.
>>149236317Fuck off faggot, Hawk was one of the best in the game.
>>149240876>Like, if someone had written a book about Marvel in the 70sI get what you're going for but that reminded me of pic related. Tried listening to it as an audiobook at my otherwise dead job thinking it would be a nice examination of that time period. Instead it's pretentious, nonsensical drivel about meta shit and doing literary analysis and comparing these comics to experimental Russian literature in a way where you can tell the author is a fart sniffer. Like the entire first chapter in a book about Marvel is spent on analyzing fucking Enigma by Peter Milligan as part of the author's "this shit is soooo deep" thing.
>>149240983Share some anecdotes if you want. I think the only time we've seen a creator really go rogue on their employer recently is Carlos Gomez shitting on ASM on Discord.
>>149227465You guys live inside of your own little bubble.
>>149241032Lmao, really sounds like a fun read. Reminds me of my experience with pic rel
Picked it up on a whim expecting it to be a nerdy narrative timeline of the entire Marvel Universe, or an actual examination of the trends, or something. Instead, it's this lame beginner's guide. He claims to have read "every Marvel comic ever published", which I doubt, because the book really only looks at a handful of the most obvious runs and titles and hardly does anything to make links between them. That's it. There's a summary of what happens, the writers/artists who worked on it, then some brief little criticism. There's about 5 or 8 chapters and the only left-field pick is Shang-Chi and, of course, he spends most of that chapter talking about racism and the Fu Manchu problem, because this is a book from 2021. He also talks a lot about how stunning and important Kamala Khan is, rather than whether her first run was actually anything interesting.
Anons moan about Howe's book on here, but at least it's actually an informative and researched history. This one was just some gimmicky stunt and I fell for it.
>>149241086Yeah there's not really any good books about comics. I was hoping to find a book similar to Howe's about DC but couldn't. Everything seems either lightweight shit barely better than a Youtube video or trying too hard to fall into saying comics are totally deep.
IMO the best part of Howe's book is the '90s section or at least starting around the New World purchase. It has the most interesting mix of comic and business people and the way those two sides clashed. Once Ike wins the legal battle it gets much more boring. I wouldn't mind a book that focuses more on the general bubble era, collapse and partial rebuild of the 2000s but covering the wider industry and with more depth. Because there's shit to be mined in things like the misguided attempt at maturity by using guys like Austen.
>>149241167Yeah, I wanted a history of DC equivalent but it doesn't seem there's anything out there. Though from what little I know about DC's behind-the-scenes, there probably not a whole lot as immediately exciting/scandalous/dramatic as what happened in the Marvel Bullpen.
Agreed about the late 80s/early 90s being the best part of Howe. Someone could definitely spin out a good, focussed industry-wide history of the 90s bubble and burst.
STICKY GONE
I REPEAT STICKY GONE
>>149241256Shooterbros, it's really over this time
Despite some shitflinging this wasn't a bad sticky. Godspeed Big Jim
>>149241298We followed his memos to the end.
My editor.
My captain.
My chief.
He's been unstickied! Thanks for all the respect shown to him in this thread. Nice to see he's appreciated regardless of his contentious history.
>>149239356"Trump is a dedicated power, a spoiled brat mentality, always wants his own way"
what the hell I didn't realize Ditko was this BASED
>>149241298>>149241329he did a lot of shit but in his death may we recall only our fondest memories of his work
>>149241370He always was. His uncanny powers of OBJECTIVISM let him look at the world objectively
>>149241298We made it to a thousand replies at least
Granted it took three storytimes, dumb arguing, and off-topic discussion but still
Can we get to 1400 replies?
>>149241595We can try! it's not bumping anymore so no harm in spamming.
As a Valiant fan I think him for creating that universe, even if I'm more into the 2012 reboot.
>>149239356I hate the meme that Ditko was rightwing. If you listen to anyone who knew him personally, he was actually pretty leftwing.
>>149241394Another stupid meme. Ditko wasn't into "objectivism". He referenced it in like one video. That's all. Ditko was basically /lit/ personified. Just like a dude obsessed with philosophy. If people would actually read his writings and not just parrot fucking memes then this would be obvious.
>>149241602>I'm more into the 2012 rebootHow do people like this exist?
>>149237806Wasn't Marvel already outselling DC by 1974?
>>149241602Original Archer & Armstrong stuff was decent, what else should I read?
>>149237806What "Brave and the Bold" like series is he talking about?
>>149241622I liked the art better generally and liked how quickly it started showing the connection between the different characters. Ninjak introduced in being hired to kill XO Manowar, with him, Eternal Warrior and Toyo Harada then teaming up to take down XO in Unity, it all felt like what I expected a shared universe to feel like.
I don't hate the originals, read the trades that came out after the reboot and got some floppies from the timeperiod and most of the runs on comixology, it's damn good stuff, but I just preferred the newer one.
>>149241618>Ditko wasn't into "objectivism". He referenced it in like one video. That's all.The Question? Mr. A?
>>149241632I assume Marvel Two-in-One
>>149241665Unrelated. Like I said, this is the kind of stupidity that happens to you when you spend too much time with reddit memes.
>>149241672Marvel Team-Up could be a candidate.
>>149241672>>149241685Which of the two came first?
>>149241689Team-Up, by a couple of years.
>>149241693That seems the more likely then.
If anyone (who was still alive by 2020) ever deserved a sticky then it was this man. It's been a good thread.
>>149226959I like seeing ads in old comics. Although the house ads are better than the sponsored ads.
I don't know if it's been brought up in the thread or not, but does anyone else think it's kind of weird that in comics then most important and influential people are usually the editors and management?
>>149241761>but does anyone else think it's kind of weird that in comics then most important and influential people are usually the editors and management?Comics were a disposable form of entertainment with low profit margins produced in a short creative turn around. People love many individual writers/artists but of course there is some focus on editors/management. Stan Lee marketed himself, books had "Stan Lee Presents:" and this marketing persisted into the modern era with his cameos in the MCU. And then Stan had numerous controversies with how he treated people. So of course they are important and influential but also infamous. I think it is similar to how people don't talk about x or y writer/director but they talk about a showrunner or executive producer like Kevin Feige with the MCU or people talk about a Disney film.
>>149241677It's hardly a stretch to say that Ditko was at the very least influenced by Rand in some ways. I think the presence of it in his Spider-Man work is definitely overblown, but his views on the law, crime and punishment, big business and the free market... he didn't align 100% perfectly with Objectivism, but at the very least he'd studied it and agreed with some of it.
>>149241803He apparently wasn't introduced to it until late in his original tenure with Marvel.
>>149238979Couple of Big Jim's
>>149241802It goes beyond that though. Karen Berger and Jeanette Kahn completely transformed DC to the point of practically being unrecognizable. And if you read up on early comics publishers it was usually the bosses that set the direction for the company. Even 21st century indies like CrossGen was similar in that regard.
>>149238648Two of the best there ever were in that photo.
>>149241803Sounds to me like your frame of reference is pathetically limited.
>>149241868It's more of a post-Marvel thing in terms of his work, for sure.
>>149241761Peter Principle. The most capable guys rose to the highest level in the company.
>>149241886I mean it doesn't go beyond it because that's literally what I mean. A short creative turn around implies that you need a strong direction from the top and that direction greatly influences things because decisions are on a knife edge.
Old comics publishers would take time to get sales information back and sales information, because of newsstand shenanigans, were unreliable. And they'd have to greatly think about how much to publish or what to publish.
X-Men as a book was cancelled and became a reprint book but they did see a bump with the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams run. Then they decided to reboot it with a purposefully internationalist team because they were seeing a boost in foreign markets. Then the creative team of cockrum and wein used ideas and characters from various sources.
The direction matters because of the things I said.
Elliot Hawk deserves a sticky
>>149241626Ah yeah, that editor was just coping. Marvel was outselling DC even when they were going through their revolving-door-EiC issues in the 70s, how humiliating for them.
>>149241761Editors curate the talent and control the direction of the books so that's not surprising at all.
>>149242092What's funny is that even in that greatest difference of when DC was on top, marvel were hampered by selling limited titles, in part because DC actually published some of their books, which is why you had strange tales etc type stuff because they could only offer limited titles.
1400 and beyond! Well deserved for the man himself!
Almost gone now. RIP Big Jim, there'll never be another like you
>>149224924Secret Wars was a year before Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Rest in peace, the best one to ever do It
Thanks for the good stories Jim, rest in peace
>>149228356>And then they turned him into a woman for several yearsthe only reason I don't regard the Beyonder as one of the worst characters in Marvel history is because Kosmos was kind of interesting. I'm surprised she hasn't made a comeback.
>>149242699At least we got Prime Spider-Man, Luke Cafe & Iron Fist shenanigans out of Secret Wars II.
>>149238989Steranko looks like Great Value Andy Warhol. It's a wig.
>>149238989I think Stan got hair transplants.
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