What went wrong?

Half-assed, didn’t have the balls to make it a true reboot. Should have been a side universe like Ultimate and Absolute.

All the best books didn't need the reboot.
Continuing some books but insisting that they be in this universe instead of mins.
Way too many fucking books, and they still added minis instead of having them as arcs in the appropriate titles.
Backups or "second features" as they tried to call them shouldn't have still been around. Again make them issues in a title.
Jim Lees designs fucking sucked.

They had a chance because at the time Marvel was completely fucked. But they totally fucking bottled it and have never recovered.

>>149490181 (OP)
Dan Didio and their acolytes.

>>149490181 (OP)
Most of the biggest successes of the New 52 could've still been done without a line-wide/universe reboot

Then you have other problems like Superman getting off on the wrong foot with readers. Think of just the first issues of Justice League, Action, and Superman, and how a reader would view them.

>>149490221 is right, it should've just been a side universe since that would give them time to lay down the setup of the universe and can go in different directions.

>>149490181 (OP)
Dan Didio is retarded.

>>149490181 (OP)
They wanted a full reboot but didn’t want to touch Batman or Green Lantern so they did this half-assed attempt

>>149490181 (OP)
It sucked ass

>>149490181 (OP)
They mishandled it badly and a lot of the stories weren’t really that good or at best just minuscule, also a whole lot of bad redesigns

>Batman both kept his entire history unchanged, but also HAD to change whole chunks of it because literally every single book had to have a member of the Batfamily show up in it; not matter how little sense that made
>Unclear amounts of time had passed between books. (Wonder Woman was doing introspective soul searching in her book, but was an insane Xena knock-off in Justice League. Superman was at the start of his career, in the middle, and current day depending on which book you read)
>Bringing WildStorm into the fold literally only effected a VERY small amount of books that then lead to fuck-all.
>Really dumb retcon/reboots of characters: The gutting of nearly all Titans lore, Bishonen Lobo, the JSA only exists as really shitty variants on another Earth, that time they tried to claim that Magic wasn't real; just New Gods tech mistaken for magic, Tim Drake basically having nothing to do with the Bat Family, massive world changing events only happening three books MAYBE
>ECT.

>>149490181 (OP)
All of these posts are correct but I’d also like to add them hiring a bunch of relics from 90s Marvel to write a majority of the books didn’t help either. Instead of feeling modern and fresh a good chunk of the books felt like you were reading a Marvel comic from the 90s you’d find in a quarter bin

This is how they ended the longest marriage in comic book history. That should let you know the level of idiocy you're working with here.

>>149490181 (OP)
The New 52 failed because DC didn't have the balls to make Dick Grayson Robin again.
Make that one change and everything falls into place.

>>149490365
>it should've just been a side universe
Hard disagree. The main canon should be as accessible as possible to Joe Everyman and little Johnny sonuvabitch. They should’ve rebooted the main earth and continued the old one for people like me who’re no-life nerds who’ve been following this shit all their life as Earth 2 like they did with the golden and silver age canons in pre-crisis instead of doing this >>149491056 and having Earth 2 be some random not-quite-ultimate-marvel-post-ultimatum nonsense

>>149491145
Instead, somehow all of Batman's history right up to Batman Inc. only happened in a single decade. Never mind the fact that that would be that Damien's either 8 years during Court of Owl or Talia just randomly raped a wandering rich boy instead of making love to Her Beloved.

Even wilder when you remember that not changing anything going on with the Green Lanterns means that (at bare minimum) GL/GA, Emerald Twilight, Death of Superman, The Last Night, Hal's tenure as Spectre, Rebirth, the Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, and Brightest Day still had to happen in a timeline where absolutely NONE of that shit could have happened.

>>149490181 (OP)
They abandoned it. Much like the recent Superman movie debacle, MoS "flopped" because it didn't make a billion but the new one is a success despite probably making less money. The sheep that listen to the media bitched about the most nonsensical things and mainstream capeshit has gotten so convoluted and shitty that everyone just flocks to the Ultimate and Absolute lines. The media was very anti New52 and tried to shade it for the dumbest reasons but it was actually selling.

>>149491236
Someone in a "why doesn't American do shonen jump-style telephone book sized anthologies?" pitched something like that. Action Comics, Detective Comics, and All-Star Comics would continue with established continuity in big anthologies for the old farts who give a shit about tradition, while Superman, Batman, and Justice League start 100% from scratch to attract new audiences.

>>149491327
>I enjoy speaking authoritatively about subjects I don’t have any actual knowledge of, yes, thank you

>>149491262
>GL/GA
This reminded me how new 52 also stupidly tried to integrate dumb things from adaptations into the comics. Ollie looked like GA on Smallville and they copied Arkham's "sexy" approach to Harley's costume

>>149491356
Everything I said was facts. Cry about it.

>>149491372
BATMAN sold during New 52, but pretty much everything else was mediocre or failed. Some series didn't even make it past Year One of N52.

>>149491372
No, they aren’t. MoS wasn’t “abandoned” they tried to build a whole cinematic universe off of it. New52 sales started out strong but pretty quickly went right into the shitter and DC was worse off than it was before the reboot. I agree that trying to rework the post-crisis canon into new52 just made things worse but to claim new52 was doing gangbusters and Rebirth only happened because of online bitching is completely incorrect

>>149491420
A lot of things sold, like Aquaman.
>>149491542
Instead of doing solo films they stuck a new Batman and Wonder woman in its sequel and killed Superman if it. They rushed through everything like idiots.

>>149490181 (OP)
Convergence and DCYou
>new 52 already off the rails and alienating old readers but maintaining solid sales
>dc moves headquarters and needs two months
>stop all ongoings for two months while this event nobody cared about goes on
>come back with dcyou that's even more off the rails to the point that not even new 52 readers cared
>reports of new comics going straight to dollar bins because issues were not selling at all
>didio even admits that they changed too much
>johns comes in with his rebirth proposal
And then Rebirth saved DC until Didio got the reins back and ruined everything.

>>149491637
That sliver of time from Rebirth to the first Aquaman movie was pretty hopeful. Damn time flies

>>149490181 (OP)
Not a full reboot, nobody wanted a reboot even if they did, the reboot made continuity more confusing immediately and they spent so much time trying to manage the bottom they didnt support the top.

>>149490181 (OP)
To this day, the fact they didn't go full reboot because they deemed the status quo of Batman and fucking Green Lantern of all things is a nothing but a incredible fumble by DC.

>>149491783
>fucking Green Lantern of all things
Johns had turned Green Lantern into the second highest selling franchise DC had at the time, just barely getting edged out by Batman. Talk on this board at the time was that DC’s trinity should be Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern.

>>149491968
It was a wild time and I was loving it.

>>149491968
This. /co/ basically stood for Green Lantern /co/rps for a good two years. There's a reason why our oldest lasting Board Traditions still have Lantern regalia on them.

>>149490181 (OP)
not a true reboot
at the very least they should have let Morrison and Johns finish their Batman and Green Lantern runs while still in the old universe

>>149491783
They shouldn't have rebooted. Flashpoint was a nothing story and Green Lantern rebirth was huge and just expanded the emotional spectrum out. Doing all that and returning to a Hal only origin the next decade would be a disaster. Plus there's precedent, the corps survived the COIE and Hal wasnt reboot by it either.

>>149492161
As someone whose favorite fictional character of all time is Superman it was a rough time for me but I was really liking GL and the Lanterns threads on here.

>>149492264
Yeah, it only shows how fickle the industry is. Or how incompetent is DC to squander good opportunities. Green Lantern is to the 2000's what New Teen Titans and LoSH was to the 1980's.

>>149490181 (OP)
Everything. We didn't need a reboot.

Dan and Geoff also hyper focusing on their favorite toys ruined everything.


Every story was Clark, Hal, Barry, and Bruce. To the point that sales started to fall. Now writers have been spending almost a decade trying to re-expand, reintroduce, and rebirth characters and teams that got shelved for no reason.

While Marvel rakes in billions and thrives off their hero diversity, expansion, and densely populated superhero universe.

>>149490181 (OP)
>>149490221
This was one of the biggest flaws. Johns GL and Morrison Bats just exacerbated the problems (despite Johns being on JL). Also really good books like OMAC got dumpstered.

>>149490859
Didn't they also try to condense like his entire history up to that point into like three years or something?

>>149491637
Rebirth was garbage and ruined DC.

>>149490181 (OP)
It was very poorly planned out. CoIE was planned for like, 4 or 5 years iirc, while this was a last minute thing stapled onto a very bad event comic.

>>149492357
>Marvel rakes in billions
Marvel Comics ain't raking in billions and Marvel Studios are in a downward slump. This is a retard take.

>>149492362
IIRC it was 5 years (yes that fucks up a lot especially Damian's age)

>>149491262
>GL/GA, Emerald Twilight, Death of Superman, The Last Night, Hal's tenure as Spectre, Rebirth, the Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, and Brightest Day
I was going to say you forgot Zero Hour and the Lanterns basically showing up to secure the win in pretty much every Crisis up to New 52, but then I realized something.
Hal's life is basically like how everything in Marvel up to Secret Wars could be tied back to Avengers Disassembled. Hal's major plot history literally tied a directly line from Silver Age JLA to then. He was the worst person to choose to keep his history if they wanted to a company-wide reboot. Him being Parallax 100% HINGES on Cyborg Superman blowing up Coast City and the Guardians refusing to let him fix it, which itself necessitates The Death of Superman story.

>>149492392
This pretty well sums it up. It reeked of “we need to pull the emergency ripcord” desperation and not something creatively driven

>>149492397
>>149492362
Yeah, Superman (and therefore, all other superheroes) only showed up 5 years ago from the start of the "present day" New 52 stories. To make keeping all of Batman's stories work, Batman showed up in Gotham 10 years ago, but wasn't revealed to the public as being a real thing until the Justice League formed.

Which is still cramped as fuck when you think about it. IIRC, the One Year Later stories established that Superman had debuted around 15 years ago, which pretty much allowed the more nebulous Silver Age/Bronze Age stuff the breathing room needed for all the Post Crisis stuff to happen and it not seem rushed.

>>149492397
>Marvel Rivals literally reviving interest in cape comics
>Disney making a bunch of shows with Marvel IPs that are successful
>Characters made less than a decade ago selling merch faster than it can be produced in China
>Several IPs already eclipsing the established ones that DC has had for years.

Is the retard in that take supposed to be you?

Its pretty obvious that one company’s overlapped the other. Im not here for the big 2 company wars non-sense but its fairly obvious that one companies been successful with marketing their IP for years while the others only failed miserably to the point they had to poach talent from the other.

Jeff, Loki, and Miles have already had more success with the cultural zeitgeist than Hal Jordan and Barry Allen have in their life times as IP

>>149490319
>Jim Lees designs fucking sucked.
I get that he was huge in the 90's but I never got why I was ever supposed to love his JL designs. Superman's was ass and lead to half a decade of him not having trunks and fake nerds acting like he should never have them.

But yeah, it was so bad, it took me YEARS to get back into DC and I'm still struggling to keep up honestly.

>>149492280
>>149492392
>>149492480
Go back and read the last issue of Flashpoint. THIS PAGE was very obviously jammed in between Barry fixing the timeline and him waking up at his desk. It was 100% a frantic reset button press. Hell, there's still comics that never got their runs fully collected because DC cancelled their TPBs so they could print 52 fucking individual series.

I don't even thing Convergence gave a good explanation for why the Wildstorm universe HAD to be stapled on to New Earth.

>>149492623
Everything has impact for a marveldrone, but for regular people it's just slop they pay no mind to.

>>149490859
>>Bringing WildStorm
Man remember when they were setting up Hellspont as some big deal

>>149492682
Didn't Superman just knock him out and that was that?

>>149492264
Man has it really been that long?

>>149492392
>>149492480
Seriously, it was BLATANTLY obvious that they were just winging it without really planning things through. Nobody, not the creators, not the editors, not the readers, really knew what the hell was going on.

And it also ended up being more or less pointless anyhow. One of the least necessary reboots ever.

>>149492670
Okay man you tell yourself that.
>>149492682
Biggest fumble by DC was just letting Milestone and Wild-storm wither away instead of directly integrating it all into the DC Universe. All that money paid just to let several characters die in obscurity.

Wish they could do some sort of mandate that just forced creators to use characters that were already created in either one of those two in-prints.

No more GhostMakers and RogulZars for at least 12 months

>>149492741
Remember when they literally had to make Raditz because Grant Morrision wouldn't let them use Bizarro in their "Who's the REAL Last Son of Krypton?" story in Superman?

>>149492781
They did it with the Charlton Comics too. DC just buys a company, and then merges it into the main storyline with an event. There's no plan, beyond "just write some comics with these characters that we now own".
Once writers lose interest, or the sales tank, then they become background characters.

>>149492854
God they just kept on trying to force shit like H'el for years.

>>149492854
Morrison was a bit of a cunt with his Superman reboot. I get DC really fucked him on his Batman run at the time but not telling anyone what you’re going to do as you’re laying the new foundation down for a rebooted Superman was a real dick move. I love Morrison but goddamn dude

Here's a better question, what went right?
Of course the New 52 was mostly shit, but surely there were some things that didn't complete suck.

>>149492998
I really goddamn hate that DC does this. The Fawcett, Charlton, Milestone, and Wildstorm characters just do not at all work in the regular DC earth. Captain Marvel and Icon don’t mean shit when Superman’s right there, the Question and Blue Beetle just seem like some-store Batman’s and the Authority’s morality doesn’t work in a world where “there’s always another way”. It just kills the characters they’re forcing into places they don’t fucking work

>>149493244
Nu52 Batwoman until the Italian Dildo got his hands on it

>>149493244
Snyder and Capullo’s Batman was good (fucking fight me /co/) the “Dark” books like Swamp Thing, Animal Man, and Demon Knights were solid till editorial realized they had a healthy niche audience and totally derailed, Azzarello’s Wonder Woman is one of the very few runs on the character that isn’t boring as fuck

>>149493244
>Here's a better question, what went right?
Off the top of my head:

>Morrison's AC
>Morrison's Batman
>Johns' GL
>Aquaman
>Demon Knights
>Azzarello's WW was good, if a departure from traditional Wondy
>Shazam (delinquent Billy was shit but everything else was good)
>Grayson
>JLD was kinda good

>>149493244
It was factually successful in sales numbers. I don't know if anyone can argue against that.
I like that they made Earth-12(Batman Beyond) one of the canonical points between Prime Earth and the Legion of the 31st Century's future. That was always a really strong aspect of what the DCAU did.

>>149492998
Except Captain Atom had a 57 issue run and was (originally) going to be the villain of Armageddon 2001, The Question had a 36 issue run (plus 7 annuals) and set the tone of Vertigo, and Blue Beetle was not only a headliner of that era's Justice League, but also had a 24 issue solo series while doing so.

They actually DID something with those characters. Hell, Maxwell Lord killing Ted Kord was symbolically considered even in universe the moment DC had gone too far. Blue Beetle MEANT something.

Meanwhile, I couldn't tell you if any of the Wildstorm character still exist after Doomsday Clock. Hell, I can't think of a single Wildstorm character that's been built up long enough in the DCU to have same gut-punch deaths like Ted undoing Booster's attempts at saving him, or The Question dying in Renee Montoya's arms to pass on his legacy to her.

>>149493304
J. H. Williams III's art was a fucking highlight of all of Batwoman.

>>149493286
But do they need to replace or interact? Like the XMen are and their offshoots are popular and strong enough to justify their own imprint or totally separate universe. How does Marvel get all of those characters and mythos to work but DC cant?

Like why cant the Authority be the West Coast Avengers or the Xmen to the Justice League? Why cant Milestone’s Dakota just be DCs version of Atlanta, Chicago, or Detroit.

Why does everything have to be based in either Gotham, Metropolis, or Central City.

And at this point what the fuck do they even do with these characters any more?

Feels like its more DCs failure to make things outside of the Justice League matter more than it is, the characters not catching on.

>>149493304
>>149493354
Fuck I forgot about this. Also a great book.

>>149493342
I know that they were more successful with the Charlton characters, but outside of Green Arrow, they've all basically been sidelined at this point.
I already was saying that the characters that DC bought, get used until someone(author or audience) loses interest. Outside of Green Arrow, they've basically lost interest in all of them. The Question is "in name only", now that they merged the title with a DCAU leftover.
They had to merge two different properties together, and The Question is still sidelined for the majority of the time now. Question gets the odd mini-series, or appearance.
It's not even really "The Question", now that the mantle has been passed onto Renee. It's just Renee being a detective that she already was.

>>149493409
DC is too JL/Batman centric.

>>149491145
It's like a Rube Goldberg machine of fixing the current DCU's bullshit.
>Put Batman Incorporated and Johns Green Lantern on Earth 2
>Make Dick Robin again. High School Student.
>Use the iconic Teen Titans as actual teens. Kaldur replaces Garth. Wally stays a ginger.
>Gets rid of all the legacy bloat AND gives an easy excuse for why they can't/won't show up
>Don't need to keep decades of bat-fuckery to justify why Tim, Jason, and Damian all exist
>Cyborg stays a Titan and John Stewart is the Nu52 GL

>>149493409
>How does Marvel get all of those characters and mythos to work but DC cant?
Marvel doesn't though. They also don't buy many other companies, so they don't have the struggle of trying to merge other comic characters into their world. Marvel just makes up their characters.
Outside of Malibu Comics, Angela, and Miracleman, Marvel doesn't really buy others. They didn't even merge Malibu into their comics in a meaningful way. Miracleman and Angela are basically ignored now too.

>>149493409
>Like why cant the Authority be the West Coast Avengers or the Xmen to the Justice League?
Because the Authority is aimed at an older audience and because of that the Authority aren’t shackled by “if we kill our enemies we become them” nonsense, if someone commits genocide the Authority is going to kill them to make sure they don’t do it again. The problem with putting them next to the Justice League is the Justice League operate in a world where “there’s always another way” and they’re not going to kill their enemy they’re just going to lock them up. Putting the two next to each other is going to obviously cause problems and, in the world of DC Comics, someone has to be wrong and, since it’s DC Comics, the Authority are going to be portrayed as the bad guys. It’s like trying to have Solid Snake crossover with Super Mario, Snake’s just gonna fucking break Bowser’s neck

>>149493609
The Authority shouldn't be on Prime Earth. They should be on Earth-(whatever number). Where they can tell their own stories, and still appear in crossover events if someone has a good idea.

>>149493444
At least The Question has legacy and made an impact on the overall narrative. My point was that DC actually DID have a plan for the Charlton characters, where as they had pretty much nothing for the Wildstorm characters to do. Stormwatch and Grifter were basically always segregated to their own books. I don't remember them showing up in any of the crossover events of the era, either.

>>149493307
>Snyder and Capullo’s Batman was good
Yeah, it was great. I loved it when Morrison wrote it five years before Snyder did.

It was trying to get out with the old, in with the new, while also rigerously trying to not upset old fans by keeping characters mostly the same, while alienating new fans, because they just condensed previous character continuity / kept previous runs ongoing. Some new comics worked, like Animal Man, etc. Some didn't. None of them required a reboot though.

>>149493307
Animal Man was okay, but Swamp Thing was just Snyder ripping off Moore instead of Morrison.

>>149493409
>How does Marvel get all of those characters and mythos to work
They don't. The X-Men absolutely do not fit in with the rest of the Marvel universe.

>>149493609
>the Authority is aimed at an older audience
Lmao. Nah, brah.

>>149493444
Why do you keep saying "outside of green arrow?" What does GA have to do with Charlton characters?

>>149493671
They did. Convergence ejected it out of Earth-0, so it was its own universe for a while again.

This is kinda shit, and I dislike what they're doing with the Rogues.

>>149493983
…yes it was you complete retard, you might think the book was edgy and juvenile but that doesn’t change the fact it was aimed at a teen-to-adult audience where as Justice League is aimed at an all ages audience you complete buffoon

This looks so so bad

>>149493973
This. X-Men only made sense when the only superheroes were Iron Man, the Hulk, Spider-Man, and Thor. It's literally a joke that mutants can claim they got their power from literally ANYTHING ELSE and Anti-Muties will drop their guns and give them a handshake.

I gotta admit, this shit is confusing. What's the point in Earth One?

>>149494035
All capeshit is aimed at teen-to-adult, you absolute fucking retard. And yes, juvenile shit like swearing and gore does not make something adult. Grow the fuck up.

>>149494035
No idea why you're arguing with him.

>>149494029
>>149494044
The problem is that they aren't completely revamping The Flash. The Rogues shouldn't even exist. Barry/Wally and The Rogues are so fundamentally Silver Age that you can't really do a grim and grounded version of them. Even the original Silver Age writers knew that they couldn't just revamp Jay Garrick's villains. They just gave Barry his own.

>>149494142
Yeah, this feels like Flash: Earth One. Absolute isn't grim & dark though, they're just supposed to be the underdogs.

>>149494061
Funnily enough, IT was suppose to be the Marvel Ultimates to the mainline DCU. But when you keep rebooting continuity every 4 years in addition to having a similarly named series that has nothing to do with the line, you end up shooting yourself in the foot.

>>149494159
Isn't that what Absolute is supposed to be?

>>149494158
Grim and Grounded, not grimdark. They live in a universe where Darkseid is in control and ultimately "wins" 1000 years into the future. There's still a chance for them to come together and be classical superheroes, but the point is that its a more realistic world with actual stakes.

>>149494184
More or less. Even though they're going to do a crossover with it soon, so who knows what's going to be folded back into the main continuity.

>>149494226
Could be good.

>>149494061
>>149494159
The stupid thing about Earth One was that it was, in principle, a mostly good idea. But making it graphic novels only was stupid and led to severe schedule slippage. A lot of the books weren't very good either and it all ultimately went nowhere. There wasn't even a Justice League book.

There's a reason why they're trying it again with Absolute.

>>149494244
I thought releasing it as graphic novels only was a good idea. There's a demographic that would never read comics, but would pick up something sold as a graphic novel. It's too bad they didn't manage to reach 'em. Funnily enough, I vaguely remember Marvel trying something similar around the same time with that Ultron Opena book or whatever.

>>149493761
Grifter was in Futures End, though that was the Wildstrom merger, so I don't know if you want to count that.

>>149493987
I was mistaken about Green Arrow being one of them. That just makes my point even stronger then. If Green Arrow isn't one of them, then Charlton has been regulated to background characters.

>>149490181 (OP)
>What went wrong?
It killed Booster Gold's book

>>149490181 (OP)
Unironically Didio's dark agenda and Johns selling out the rest of the company by giving him more support and leverage in return for getting to Halfag as hard as physically possible.

>>149493244
The almost literal devil dealing Geoff Johns had to do inorder to get Hal as THE Green Lantern again caused a cascade that fucked the entire Justice League line up and their solos but it's undeniable that he then proceeded to write some amazing fucking Green Lantern.

>>149492264
I miss Hal and Pals

>>149492280
>Flashpoint was a nothing story
Boostergold should have stopped it

>>149493342
Zealot is literally a member of the Justice League that's it

>>149491236
Nah. It worked back then because things were simple and comics weren't reprinted that often.

New 52 should've just been a side line

>>149490181 (OP)
It was the dc time that ruined superman, Allan Scott and specially Harley quinn the most, the consequences can still be felt nowadays, along with Alan Scott.
Ironically the most hated hero at the time, that was aquaman, had one of the best runs in his whole superhero life.
This era was supposed to make wildstorm superheroes more well known, but beside the authority and grifter, no writer even made the lowest of effort to include them.
Gen 13 and Kaitlyn Fairchild is the greatest example of it.
The justice league jim Lee suits are overhated, I still don't know why people hated them, I still think they look beautiful, I even remember the seething people had when they tried to put wonder woman on pants, but to me she looked alright, but im glad she conserved her original look.
I don't get why people loose their shit with some minor changes, remember when dc canceled and awesome joker/batgirl alternate cover, because Twitter fags said it was a rape allegory? Ridiculous.
Some minor visal changes are fine, character assassination is not fine. Unless is clear is an alternate universe.

>>149495074
>The justice league jim Lee suits are overhated, I still don't know why people hated them, I still think they look beautiful,

Shill spotted

>>149493327
>It was factually successful in sales numbers.

Yeah, at first. But then you have to start asking how much of that is because of the reboot and how much of that is because they got a better creative team

Snyder's run on Detective was actually gaining sales prior to New 52. Had they just put him and Capullo on the Batman ongoing without a reboot/relaunch it would've sold just as well.

>>149495099
Seriously, with in a not shitposting way, why they suck beside "is overdesigned, way too many lines"
Because for real I don't get the hate.
The x-men never had this problem in the 90's in fact those suits are loved and people still think are the best suits of the x-men, maybe with the exception of storm.

>>149495137
Oh shut the fuck up already you retard.

Is it just me, or was the Supergirl run disjointed as hell? It feels like they were just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks, and barely anything lasted more than a few issues. Also, things kept going to shit for her for some reason, though she bounces back. Some of the twists, like the identity of Cyborg Superman, are kinda neat but mostly stupid. Also, they love doing the plot where someone tries to do something that, on the surface, can be done fine, but they have to have some secret agenda or just be completely insane while carrying it out.

>>149494244
The release schedule was pretty bad for those books but some were interesting at least like the Superman and WW books. I just felt like DC gave up after 2/3s of the big three trilogies were done and half assed it to the finish line.

>>149495152
>Seriously, with in a not shitposting way, why they suck beside "is overdesigned, way too many lines"

Because it is overdesigned. New 52 Flash looks good when Manapul is drawing him but looks like complete ass with all the plating lines. Superman's New 52 costume looks like shit when other people figured out how to make a trunkless Superman costume look better. Its only saving grace is that it isn't one of the asstacular Injustice designs

>The x-men never had this problem in the 90's in fact those suits are loved and people still think are the best suits of the x-men, maybe with the exception of storm.
That's because the X-Men designs were done by 90s Jim Lee and not 2010s Jim Lee.

>>149495199
Cope, you shill.

>>149495282
Fuck off, bot.

>>149495209
A lot of New 52 was disjointed.

>>149495265
>New 52 Flash looks good when Manapul is drawing him
So literally what's even the point of complaining then?

>>149495265
He was worse in the 90s, shill.

Kinda sad that they just got rid of New 52 Superman, even if I didn't like him that much.
He was the Superman I grew up with when I started reading comics.

It was changed for movie synergy. Parents being killed, characters reimagined or made darker, legacies started over. Everything was to fit things into a new movie friendly universe. And sales wise it succeeded got a while but it did so, so much damage

>>149491056
Jesus, I forgot how every woman in the dc universe became a radical feminist, bitch, a whore or all of them at the same time, Because it was "realistic"
Remember when starfire slept with Roy Harper just because sex meant nothing to tamaranians beside reproducing?
Or Lois fucking with another dude after Clark visited her in her apartment?
Jay didn't deserve this shit

>>149495254
>Superman
Man his EO books were garbage. Pretty emblematic of how DC treated the character in the earlier 2010's.

>>149496902
I remember beast boy being red, because they wanted him to associate him with the mystic colors, like "the red" of animal man and "the green" of swamp thing.
Funnily enough beast boy started to be colored green with no explanation in the book, just because people hated it a lot.
Like nightwing whe he started using red instead of blue.

personally I liked most of it ive read and it was nice to give alot of the c and d lister a book for once

>Everyone got their lore changed up in someway, But Batman.
>Batman was unchanged, but all his shit happened in like a 3-5 year time frame.
>Bats was droping Robins like crazy.

>>149494837
In a tiny group shot, right?

i think people are being overly dramatic about batmans timeframe and it really wasnt that big of a deal

>>149497160
The problem is that they were still treated like a bunch of C and D listers instead of giving them to writers who wanted to do something with them.
Fucking hell; Static Shock fucking fought a knock-off Joker for his 6 issue run and that's it. He just disappeared after.

>>149497212
Green lantern was one of the few heroes that conserved their lore too.
>>149497212
>>149497312
Having batman tilapia in 5 years os stupid considering the amount of robins we had, is stupid considering how dick became adult nightwing, the death of Jason Todd, Tim becoming Robin, and the whole existence of Damian Wayne.
Realistically, every robin was only 1 year on charge, tim never was a kid, Jason hated batman guts when he was just a year with him, and Tim was just there, even when he was the most important Robin at the time, and the worst Being the entire existence of Damian Wayne. Because that means Bruce was raped even before he was batman, and knew talia.

>>149497336
Static Shock was outright sabotaged by the actions of the artist and editor.

>>149497212
Batman, Green Lantern, and Superman all have their Post-Crisis stories.
Supes got his a bit later, with the merging of Post-Crisis and New 52 Supermans, but it's there now.
It was across 10 years, originally it was 5, but they extended it to 10.

>>149495443
They didn't get rid of New 52 Superman, they just retconned a few things, like his WW relationship.

>>149490181 (OP)
EVERYTHING

>>149497312
Dick and Damian entire existence doesn't make sense if the whole batman story happened in 5 years.

>>149497312
If you were only reading Batman, you wouldn't have noticed because it's never brought up there. You could have read Green Lantern, Detective, and Batman and not realized a series wide reboot had even happened.

>>149497280
Yes and she was in Absolute Power and beat an Amazo bot while everyone else was shitting themselves

>>149497795
I'm going to be honest; I thought that was Artemis the whole time in Absolute Power.

>>149496994
I felt like some of the ideas and takes were interesting, but a lot of it fell flat. The status quo they ended on was more interesting than the books themselves. Lisa was interesting, at least, but I don't really know why Straczynski explicitly made her a hooker. Also, side note, but it really hit me how old and dead the Earth One line is at this point—the first Superman book came out in 2010, and the last one in 2015.

>>149497212
It was weird going from Morrison eras batman who was canonically in his 30-40s, probably the latter to a younger Bruce who still went through all the same shit.

>>149497716
It's 10 years, but it doesn't really fix much.

>>149496902
To be fair, Joan acting like a bitch (and Lois getting piped down within Clark's earshot) was just part of the weird "No Superhero should be Married" cuckoldry DC and Marvel's editorial was jerking off to for last 20 years. Like, Joan knew from DAY ONE what Jay was The Flash. The first Flash comic ends with them toasting to him saving the day and her giving a knowing wink to the audience as others ponder who The Flash is. It's why family is such an important theme to all the Flashes.

>>149497716
>>149497861
How "old" is Batman in universe at this point anyways.

>>149497868
Again, that would mean that Damien is barely in 1st Grade during Court of Owls, because he doesn't become a target of Ra's Al Ghul until he's a very accomplished hero.

>>149497888
However old Dick Grayson is plus 13 years, I think. To be fair, Bruce has literally been dipped in the Lazarus Pits a couple of times to de-age himself.

I happen to still have something someone made a while ago to explain the Batman New 52 timeline. I'm not saying it's accurate but here it is.
1/3

>>149497920
2/3

>>149492623
Yeah, thanks to media outside of comics. DC has been bad about media outreach that isn't Batman.

>>149497920
i really dont like when they explain bruces training so much

>>149492781
There's simply no good and satisfactory way to integrate WildStorm into the DC universe, and frankly why would you want to. It needs to be it's own universe, for the better of all involved.

>>149498048
You can use some of them fully but some of them can't. Mr. Majestic could easily replace Kal-L for the JSA

>>149493409
If you actually read The Authority, you might understand why that's a retarded take.

>>149495074
>Ironically the most hated hero at the time, that was aquaman, had one of the best runs in his whole superhero life.
I don't think Aquaman was ever particularly hated, being the target of jokes isn't the same as the audience hating him.

>>149498076
You aren't going to preserve anything about the Kherubim or Daemonite history on earth, so, no, you can't even do that with Majestros without immense loss of character.
Do you even read WildStorm?

>>149497934
3/3

>>149498048
Hell, having them take up the mantle of The Monitors or even setting up base in The House of Heroes makes sense. DC already dropped that ball several times.

>>149490181 (OP)
Jim Shooter, being based as always, summed up the problem correctly. Beyond this stuff of >>149490319 >>149490365 where New 52 was a half-assed, the books were trying to be these new entry points to DC comics... where much of the advertising and stories relied on you knowing these characters' history with one of the big pulls being "Oh, what has happened to X, what are they doing/where are they are?". So you had a reboot that wasn't really a reboot, that wanted to attract new fans by relying on decades of history etc.

It was essentially the problem that DC had after COIE on an even larger scale not helped by the fact that they were trying to integrate yet another two universes into everything.

>>149493409
While this anon is absolutely idiotic, they actually are unintentionally also hitting on yet another factor which has fucked DC since Didio has taken over. Although there were obvious problems, one of the reasons had a boom in the 80s is because of how wide their universe was. You had shit like the Legion, the JLI, Swamp Thing, Vigilante, Omega Men, the Titans etc. This huge sprawling universe where although Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were important, the universe didn't revolve around them.

Under Didio's reign as editor, he was so so concerned with making everything interconnected and edgy, making the entire thing feel a lot smaller.

New 52 is probably the epitome of that, where unlike post COIE which for better or worse, tried to make DC more Marvel-like but you still had a variety of tones, genres and stories to choose from, New 52 was Didio basically trying to make everything, even the so-called experimental books staring C-Listers, fit his sensibilities.

>>149498048
Kaythlin fairchild, being involved in cadmus was an interesting take, but no one ever made something with the whole gen 13 cast.
The only relevant wildstorm hero in the new 52 was grifter for some reason I don't quite understand.

>>149490221
The changes were far too bland for it to be a side universe. Absolute and Ultimate have been notable because they have some fairly drsastic differences. There's a reason to buy those titles AND the main titles.

N52 offered the same exact stuff, except for the continuity becoming extremely condensed/fuzzy (for the main titles), and the lightest sprinkling of edge to tease 14 year old boys.

N52 could only function as the primary universe.

>>149495074
Believe it or not, most people didn't like it because it made her look like a little bitch. Even on /co/, it was suggested to just redraw her face to be scowling.

>>149493244
I like the t-shirt and jeans desing in action comics

I don't know that I like Wildstorm being part of the main universe. With how much of it's own mythology it had before Wildcats just feels kind of weird when placed in the DC universe.

>>149494067
NTA, but you're a stupid faggot.

Target audience =/= artistic merit.
Just because the finished material isn't as deep or intelligent as people think it is, doesn't mean that it wasn't targetted at an older audience.

If I show you animated porn of a children's cartoon, the inital material and lack of thematic depth wouldn't stop the target audience being adults.

>>149493973
>>149494047
>The NPC argument from people that never read Marvel comics made before Quesada

>>149495392
Because it looks ass when the artist isn't Manapul

>>149493244
Dial H was good

>>149497897
Again, I said it doesn't fix much. But it's better than trying to cram it into 5 years.

>>149495074
I'm of two minds about the N52 Justice League designs. For individual characters they're too bland and generic; they had a lot if their character filed off, with the extra lines adding nothing to them. However, as a group, it made them look fairly distinct from one another, but unified by an underlying design language - in this context the additional lines do good things for them.

If the designs were kept to the Justice League book I think they could have been remembered fondly. However, they spilled over into the individual character ongoings, which did the designs no favours.

>>149497993
I don't mind it, but it needed to "happen" in the pre-10 years. 10 years is already way to short to do all of Post-Crisis. Wasting 3 of those 10 years, on Bruce training is really dumb.

>>149490181 (OP)
Ruined Cass, the only good Batgirl

>>149492667
This page still drives me nuts. Many Vertigo books were already part of DC. Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Sandman, Hellraiser. They were all technically part of DC, they just didn't crossover much. Fuck, what are we meant to be throwing in? Preacher and Y the Last Man? Just lower the editorial walls, goddamn.

>>149498445
The biggest problem too is that there was no real effort to actually make it work. Although I know there are a bunch of people who have problems with it, at least Waller vs Wildstorm actually works to combine parts of DC and Wildstorm.

What New 52 did was essentially just throw shit together and hope it stuck.There was no attempt to integrate or see what worked, what didn't. Just throw a bunch of stuff together slap a couple of established names on it and call it a day.

It was essentially all the New 52 was. Throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

>>149498645
Yep. Morrison, Quesada and Bendis treated the X-Men as their own little corner when prior to them one of the big things was how much the X-Men and mutants interacted with the rest of the Marvel universe just fine. Mutants were part of other teams.

Likewise, a crucial part was also the Sentinels were not just a reaction to mutants but a reaction to superheroes, with groups like the Hellfire Club and private interests viewing them as an existential threat to their power.

Also on the X-Men being, loathed and hated, one of the big aspects of them was quite literally that they were underground heroes. People didn't know who they were or what they wanted for the most part, which lead to them being distrusted.

>>149492667
I am convinced that Grifter was suppose to join the Justice League as their last resort in terms of killing.

>>149498781
>>149498267
Grifter is an edgy gun user. He's a Marvel character in DC. A schmuck like Didio thinks the universe is missing a guy like that. He gets to do the cool badass thing.

>>149498759
Vertigo was technically on Earth Prime, but they distanced it a lot. Not always though.
That was to say that it's actively part of Earth Prime again, instead of off of its own.

>>149498759
It also doesn't make sense when you remember that Johns already brought in Alec Holland Swamp Thing and Constantine in Brightest Day. And that Grifter showed up in Flashpoint, BEFORE the merge happened. Like did that mean there was going to be a Grifter in the DCU before the merging?

>>149498770
That's what drives me nuts, Marvel pretty much made clear that the X-Men were able to exist in Marvel. Quesada/Alonso-era Marvel shoved the X-Men off in a corner and then pretended the Avengers were at fault as an "explanation" which made things stupider. Everyone knows the reason they did so was just because Fox had the rights.

>>149498757

This.
I was initially hyped for Nu52 just like most other people, I was flipping through issues every month to find out how and when my girl would make her entrance. And then Didio pranked me and forbade anyone from using her for eight years or some shit. I have despised DC since.

>>149498757
She was just finally getting back in order too.

>>149498770
>>149498917
I think the confusion is that younger/more causal fans don't see the public calling for the public lynching of The Avengers or Spider-Man like they do "teenager who suddenly turned purple and gained the ability to heal plants with a touch" or "Superhero team they've seen time and again stop villains who tried to wipe out humanity for trying to kill purple plant healers."

>>149500713
My long standing theory that "how much of an X-fag someone is is inversely proportionate to how much of a rest of marvel outside maybe Spider-man fag they are" remains strong.

>>149497868
And what do you think it was before that? 15 years at max, and there was far too many things that happened in that timeframe but who cares, sliding timescale and whatever, it's cape comics, you generally don't care about that because it doesn't come up in the stories anyway, but you then found a reason to act like retards, Batman wasn't in his 20s in the New52, he was mid 30s to early 40s, same as he always was.

>>149498586
>If I show you animated porn of a children's cartoon
That's your example, you fucking retard? Artistic merit is all that matters because we all know who the target audience for comics are, it's fucking manchildren. If it isn't complex or deep then how can it be mature? Because it has no-no words in it? Fucking retard.

>>149498660
It looks good when drawn by good artist and looks bad when drawn by bad artists. Same as ever.

>>149498645
X-Men never made sense withing the Marvel universe, it did get worse at the turn of the century because they started kind of addressing how dumb it all was and how id didn't fit in well with the rest at all, but it was never well integrated.

>>149494216
>Grim and Grounded
Batman makes bomb out of poo poo and pee and then punches people with his teeth in the newest one.

Eh, I liked New 52.
I was weirdly a sucker for Simone's Batgirl.

>>149492667
Vertigo being it's own separate universe just makes me furious. So glad Waid made The Sandman officially canon again to the DCU in the new history book.

>>149498757
>>149499667
>>149499695
Reminder that gookgirl is a no-draw SHIT character with no memorable runs, no rogues gallery, no supporting cast, and NO SALES. She flopped because nobody gave a fuck about then, and her pity solo is flopping because nobody gives a fuck about her now.

>>149501639
Absolute Batman was only "grounded" righ up until whatever issue it was that he revealed he had a giant bat welded on front of a Cat 797F Haul Truck, yet no-one noticed.

>>149501661
Typically when people talk about New 52, its everything BUT the Bat-Books, since Batman was never rebooted.

>>149501326
The example was chosen because it's the most extreme one possible. I picked one that was blindingly obvious because you're a stupid bitch. Apparently, even that wasn't enough.

The operative term in manchild is MAN. Maturity and artistic depth are distinct from target audience. An all-ages film can be far deeper and mature than something made for an older audience. Porn is the most extreme example of something devoid of artistic merit possible.

The entire point that people have tried to make clear to you is that the target audience for these titles is different, and now you're pivoting like the gormless turd you are. You don't like certain shit, and you will squirm like a worthless bitch to maintain that stance. "Bad thing must be made for the bad people." Kill yourself, faggot.

>>149490221
>Should have been a side universe like Ultimate and Absolute.
It wasn't nearly different enough to justify that. You continuity-fags are tiresome.

>>149494244
It was a good idea, it's just that
#1 there were huge gaps between releases
#2 none of the books seemed to be connected or even in the same earth, despite the name "earth one"

>>149495443
>>149497492
Anon, new 52 superman literally died of super cancer and waa replaced by the returning pre-new 52 superman in rebirth, they very much got rid of him

>>149502124
It's because they were trying to appeal to the "no cape-shit" demographic for the longest time.

>>149502124
Hack Waid strikes again.

>>149502223
>The example was chosen because it's the most extreme one possible
And that's why you're a retard, you can only think in extremes. Porn is porn, period.
>the target audience for these titles is different
No it's fucking not, that's the fucking point. It's still capeshit for capeshitters.

>>149498757
cassfags are morons
viva la babs

>>149502334
Babs; the character no one actually liked until she was saved from obscurity by Ostrander when the Bat Office decided that her getting crippled in Killing Joke was a good way to remove another campy aspect from Batman.

>>149490181 (OP)
>what went wrong
What DID go wrong? What are you talking about? New 52 was by-and-large a success and allowed DC to retake a significant portion of the market share away from Marvel.

>>149498808
This explains Deathstroker's wank

>>149502449
Marvel was sucking massive shit at that point, though. They could have kept doing their regular titles and still would have gotten that chunk back. Marvel NOW! was a fucking disaster.

>>149490181 (OP)
That Aquaman was dope though.

>>149502288
He is around in earth 52

>>149502528
DC's 52 Earths go from 0-51.

>>149502408
It's also hilarious because actual Batman fans generally prefer Cass, but people who don't read comics continuously keep pushing Babs, when most prefer her as Oracle.

>>149502540
This rule was never a hard rule, and the first crisis was undone for the Nth time.

>>149502334
That's hot.

>>149502507
>Marvel was sucking massive shit at that point
They always are, but they weren't getting excessive hate at the time, not at all, lots of now defunct comic book coverage websites were pushing this "look at Marvel DC, Marvel is doing things the right way".

>>149502549
Which is so stupid, because it makes keeping track of all this stuff needlessly complicated. Is Doomsday Clock still "canon"? If so, that means that Post-Crisis New Earth is just hanging out somewhere, untouched by modern continuity since Infinite Crisis as Earth-1987. Does that mean that Pre-Flashpoint Earth is now Earth-2006? Is New 52 Earth now Earth-2011? What about the fact that the Multiverse was implied to have been fixed in a way to where there are 52 sets of 52 Earths? Or Dark/Heavy Metal revealed and equal and opposite amount of Dark Earths? Or Dark Crisis revealing that its now the DC Omniverse? Hell, JLU just brought back Hypertime.

I know that it's ultimately just pointless set dressing (Multiverse 2 in Multiversity was literally Didio's original 52 Earths that went completely unexplored before Final Crisis/New 52 reorganized them), but why bother adding and subtracting the numbers if you never do anything with them.

>>149502582
>The Event Age of Comics is the "Right Way" of doing things.
Literally became a Daredevil fan back then because he was mostly uninvolved with most of the crossover stuff. You could actually read a single story without it having to take a break to do tie-ins every 4 issues.

>Originally going to be the post Brightest Day/Flashpoint line rejig.
>Brightest Day ended with characters like Swamp Thing and Constantine being in the main DC universe proper. Characters like Aquaman were brought back from the dead (originally one of the cut White Lanterns was Animal Man too who came back in New 52 books).
>So it was essentially a line refresh and set up for a bunch of new books.
>Then the decision was made to make it a "full" reboot, with an incredibly short turn around on a bunch of series.
>Plenty of series just continued: Batwoman, Batman Inc, Green Lantern, just continued on like nothing had happened.
>Other series were planned before, like Aquaman was set up for a new series in Brightest Day, as was Swamp Thing.
>Some series were weirdly changed like Snyder's Court of Owls storyline was originally a DickBats story, hence why Lincoln Marsh looked like Bruce, why the Talons were connected to the Circus etc and making it a Bruce story weakened it considerably. Snyder was decent at writing DickBats.
>Other series like Action Comics by Grant Morrison wasn't a good "jumping on" point.
>They did next to NO proper marketing even though they believed this would be a grand jumping on point but some mainstream media outlets did cover it lightly. It needed a proper marketing push.
>They stuffed all of continuity into 5 years and editorial made no attempt at aligning different books together. Justice League was a very bland blockbuster and their attempts at origin stories in the Year Zero stuff were all rather eh. Characters were wildly different to their solo series. They did have a sales boost for a time. Interesting series like Dial H for a Hero were not given proper support. Many villains and set up were just bland as fuck.
>Eventually the diminishing returns meant they went back.
They should have just done an Ultimate universe (like they are doing with Absolutes) and some new Elseworlds or prestige series rather than a half assed reboot.

>>149502663
>Or Dark/Heavy Metal revealed and equal and opposite amount of Dark Earths?
I an pretty sure there were far more dark earths than earths, since those had a really turn over circle of Creation and destruction.

>>149493244
The Crime Syndicate coming back as their classic Earth-3 selves was pretty neat.

>>149502325
NTA but son you may be legitimately retarded

>>149497407
>Static Shock was outright sabotaged by the actions of the artist and editor.
What happened?

>>149502802
>The Crime Syndicate coming back as their classic Earth-3 selves was pretty neat.
It is superb, and Ivan Reis was a superclass at that time.

Foerever Evil was THE last good crossover event ever.

>>149502908
I think it is funny how deathstorm become a separate version.

>>149502924
Yeah, but is not the same deathstorm as Blackest night deathstorm

I love that crime syndicate so much with Volthoom, Atomica, etc...

>>149502858
Like another Anon said DC was essentially just throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick during New52, one of the first books they put out was a Static Shock reboot that I'm pretty sure was written by one of his original creators. However the guy drawing the book (Scott McDaniel I think?) had started taking writing classes and basically decided he knew better on what the direction of the book should be, the editor would side with the artist for some reason, the writer got frustrated and quit. I believe Static Shock was one of the first books cancelled out of New52

>>149502677
It was the age of full on console wars, slop was being hailed as good while they were trying hard to criticize DC for being problematic with stuff like "this villain said <run, you little girls> and that's derivative and sexist".

>>149502810
>NTA
Nah, you're him and you're a colossal retard and faggot. Piss off.

>>149490181 (OP)
Part of it for me was when they tried to hype you up with giving some attention to the B and C team characters, but then just completely changed who they were so that they were that character in name only. Like what the fuck did they do to Shining Knight? Why not just make a new chick character?

>>149502222
Oh, Batman got rebooted, even if some writers pretended it didn't. Batgirl is the prime example.

>>149492161
luv me sum diana pants

>>149503225
As if you care about Shining Knight.

>>149493244
Aquaman got to be cool again.

>>149503230
Of all the Bat-Changes I can think of
>Babs finally got her back fixed suddenly, even though it had been a character point for years that she wouldn't unless everyone got to have the same tech
>The entire Dick-Titans era may never have happened
>Talia raped Bruce instead of them making love to conceive Damien
>Tim was never actually Robin; he hung out with Batman but was never made a Robin
>Steph and Cass just straight up didn't exist

>>149503141
That explains why it was so terrible. Brutal.

>>149503191
I think you were in such a hurry to show everyone how cool you are by saying capeshit can't be mature that you didn't grasp what the other anon was saying and when called out realized your mistake but instead of just fading into that good night you felt you had to double down on your retardation

>>149503141
Its funny, because a tribute comic to McDuffie when he passed basically warned that shit like this was going to happen.

>>149503339
Capeshit can be mature, but Authority isn't. Now stop crying.

>>149503289
>>Babs finally got her back fixed suddenly, even though it had been a character point for years that she wouldn't unless everyone got to have the same tech
That one wasn't even all that sudden or shocking. DC's been sowing seeds for Babsgirl's eventual return for years before the reboot. But it was supposed to happen in the pre-Flashpoint continuity. Reboot just speed things up because Simone eventually ran out of excuses to keep Babs in a wheelchair and here we are.

>>149503329
Yeah there was a lot of that during the first couple years of New52; George Perez got frustrated with the Superman editorial team because they had no idea what the new Superman foundation and lore was gonna be since Morrison was in charge of that and refused to share his ideas, a lot of the fringe books that didn't immediately find an audience were reworked after like six issues, firing the original creative team and replacing them with Rob Liefeld (no joke), who himself would end up getting super frustrated and quit all the books he was given because editorial didn't know what was canon/what characters he could use. It was a legitimate mess and how Didio didn't get shitcanned after and held onto that job for another ten years will always be a mystery to me

>>149503355
McDuffie fucked Bob Washington over on right.

>>149503364
Again, you're so quick to show everyone how awesome you are that you're not grasping the original point. No one said the Authority was a mature, thought provoking book. Just that it was aimed at an older audience than what Justice League is. If you really can't wrap your brain around that you are genuinely, truly retarded and every time you reply you end up making yourself look more and more retarded

>>149503368
Just like Cyborg joining the Justice League. Most of his stories after the whole Titans East debacle were how he had put in the work and deserved to be in the League, but the reboot made it to where he just League material from day one.

>>149503141
Rozum wasn't one of Static's creators, but he'd created Xombi. The rest is accurate.

>>149502325
>And that's why you're a retard, you can only think in extremes.

So he's like you?

>>149502507
>Marvel NOW! was a fucking disaster.

It wasn't. The first Marvel NOW! was 2012 which actually did well, inexplicably (and outperformed New 52). It was the second Marvel NOW! in 2016 that was a complete disaster.

>>149502261
>continuity-fag

I accept your non-argument concession

>>149490364
From the looks of this thread they're still upset New 52 is no longer a thing and attacking everyone going against it

>>149502408
Unrelated to the current discussion, but what was the start of her hero career like in her first appearance? She popped up in the Silver Age too, right?

>>149503650
She was a grown ass woman who worked at a library and put the pieces together on a Batman case and decided to help out in a costume she'd original made for a masquerade ball.

>>149503684
>Dr.
Oh neat, didn't know that. What was her PhD in?

>>149502408
To be fair, Babs exploded in popularity because of BTAS and TNBA. In the Silver Age comicbooks she was fine, but DC was not doing anything with her. It was Timm and Dini that showed that something fun can be done with Babsgirl.

>>149503720
Library Science; it's an actual doctorate IRL.
Funnily enough, Babs' de-aging is half DCAU synergy and half DC's way of dealing with The Starfire Problem.

>>149492623
>>Disney making a bunch of shows with Marvel IPs that are successful

Which ones?

>>149501595
Yes, we already established you're an NPC, you don't need to say anything else further

>>149503761
damn she just got even hotter in my eyes

>>149503424
And you fail to understand that it's not aimed at an older audience, it's aimed at the exact same one. You are very stupid and insecure.

>>149503761
>The Starfire Problem
Meaning?

>>149503799
You're pitiful.

>>149504123
Dick was in love with and was going to marry Starfire at several points during his Titans tenure. You know what would absolutely ruin Batman stories? If Nightwing could just call in his Supergirl-lite wife whenever Bruce is on the ropes. Suddenly Bane and Azrael aren't a problem when Bruce just has to whistle to have Starfire blast them.
Remember, outside of Star, Dick didn't have any actual love interests. So they made Dick a bit of a manslut and de-aged Babs to be crafted into his Bat-Approved love interest.

>>149504249
I am pretty sure the actual problem is that it would age Bruce by proxy, because of this they designed Tim as "eternal Robin".

>>149504144
I accept your concession again.

>>149502520
Amen, brother. He needs to be reunited with the Others

>>149504347
Cry more.

>>149498181
Damn absolutely zero breathing room for any of this shit. Definitely need a minimum of 15 years to account for post crisis Batman's history

>>149502156
Reminder that you are a no-life SHIT person with no money, no girlfriend, no job, no future and NO VALUE. You are alone because nobody gives a fuck about you and you will kill yourself because nobody ever will.

>>149504498
But enough about (You)

>>149502334
Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is an actual worthless character. She's literally just some mediocre bitch wearing a batsuit. Nothing to set her apart at all. People who claim to be her fans can't even describe her personality cause she has none.

>>149501661
No matter what I though Snyders Batman books where solid. Art was good and at least it was consistent.

>>149504512
Batgirl in general is a worthless character.

>>149502663
It would be interesting if they actually explored the multiverse and not in the "spider-verse" shit where they just kill alt-universe variants. Do stuff like in exiles where we get other worlds that don't just devolve into an edge fest.

>>149503385
Why didn't they just write out a timeline like the had done a bunch of time before that.

>>149504434
Nope. Most of Knightfall, No Man's Land, War Games, Hush, Red Hood, and Batman RIP just plain don't happen lol

>>149504249
That actually sounds like a fun AU in the multiverse where dick and starfire got hitched and he just has her on speedial for Gotham. Wonder what they could do with Babs in that setting.

>>149490181 (OP)
New 52 was the last time DC was actually interesting. They fucked up by simply not working ahead of schedule and using the wonders of today (aka the internet) to work ahead instead of doing a stupid 2 month long filler thing. And then when they came back they went too hard into experimental territory particularly on Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. People didn't want to take a two month break from Batman to return to Jim Gordon in the suit, and they forced the recently appointed team on Detective Comics to follow that status quo which is a shame because the little we got prior to it was really good, would've made for a great companion piece. Same with Supes, people were digging Action Comics and then got blasted with a new weird direction. Stuff like Martian Manhunter, Gotham By Midnight or Midnighter were great but the whole thing collapsed because that two month gap + the instability of the big players dragged the whole thing down and since then it's been mostly boring cookie cutter big name straight capeshit, and it's reflected in how little interaction from /co/ new comics get, storytime threads if new issues used to hit bump limit, now they barely reach 100 replies because there's apathy towards it all, DC lost its flavor and Marvel's been garbage for over 20 years.

>>149504627
In the original timeline all of that happened in about 2 years. Somehow.

>>149495209
>>149495376
For some reason, the Supergirl books couldn’t decide whether they wanted her to just fuck off into space or live a “regular” life on Earth as a barista or some shit. It was a lot of back and forth, with her always ending up back on Earth with like one friend. They even had that stupid space academy arc right after her short-lived time as a Red Lantern.

>>149504541
Snyder isn't bad when he's locked in on one character. Just read Superman Unchained on a whim and it was pretty enjoyable

>>149502288
So you don't understand what happened then? Understood.
The "souls" of New 52 Superman and Lois were merged into Post-Crisis Superman and Lois.

>>149503761
>Library Science; it's an actual doctorate IRL.
>A Ph.D. in library science or information science provides scholars with the tools to produce individual research, collaborate with other researchers, and teach library and information science in higher education. The standards are not as concrete for Ph.D. programs as for Master of Library and Information Science (MLIS) programs, but there are a few ways to rank a program’s quality. One way is to look at the school of information offering the Ph.D. and the other programs they offer, including if the school provides an MLIS degree and if the degree is accredited by the American Library Association. Another sign of a quality program is seeing the research and progress made by graduates and faculty and how much access a Ph.D. student will have to quality research opportunities.

Were there any weird one-off characters introduced in the New 52 that didn’t seem to stick? I’m rereading it now and came across Dr. Shay Veritas, this super-genius scientist who built her own research facility near Earth’s core. She was set up as an ally for Superman and Supergirl, but the writers never really followed through with her. Her backstory even included a dimensional portal experiment that almost destroyed the Block, and the fallout left the entire staff imprinted with her DNA, basically turning them into partial copies of her. Nothing ever came out of that plot point—other than the fact that there was now a lab full of scientists, including men, who were all biological copies of her.

The New 52 just felt packed with twists and random new characters like her that they barely fleshed out.

>>149504871

>>149504608
I don't think they had the time to do that. WB had a big restructuring thing and it seemed like DC was told "turn a profit or we're shutting you down" so they pulled the emergency switch of a reboot...like nothing about new52 was thought out, they just did the line-wide Brightest Day stuff and the inciting incident was Flashpoint which was obviously not meant to be a universe reset.

>>149504883

>>149504917
Would it have been that hard to add it in after they started?

>>149504978
You mean Flashpoint? The only thing in Flashpoint that had anything to do with new52 was a hastily drawn splash page showing Wildstorm and Vertigo getting integrated into the DCU and Flash and Batman's costumes get redrawn on the last couple pages

>>149502802
>>149502908
overrated Johnslop

>>149505024
It crazy to think how big Flashpoint is and how many times it has been adapted in one way or another, and it was orignally just meant to be a one off arc that got hijacked into rebootng the entire universe for some reaoson.

>>149505033
>Implying Johns was bad

>>149505077
Go away, Geoff. Take Synder with you.

>>149504978
I think they tried to do that but there was just too much that came out without any kinda guidance that it would just be a huge mess. Like in the first issue of new52 Teen Titans Tim says something along the lines of 'this will be the shortest iteration of Teen Titans ever!' but then it was decided after that was published that there never was a Teen Titans before that one so the reprints and trades removed that bit of dialogue. There's more instances of that but that's the only one I really remember

>>149505077
I mean he's good at everything except wrapping up story arcs in non-retarded ways, kinda like Hickman.

>>149505077
He's mid at his very best

>>149504871
Pale Man (in concept only) was interesting. Someone who got hit by Joker Gas and survived, leaving them looking like a copy of the Joker and being used to infiltrate gangs.

>>149504680
What the fuck am I looking at?

>>149505052
It had a lot of spin-offs

>>149504732
>short-lived time as a Red Lantern
kino

>>149505052
It's because its literally the only Flash storyline anyone who's not a Flashfag knows about. I can name three WONDER WOMAN story arcs, but I couldn't name three Flash story arcs with a gun pointed to my head.

>>149504839
this makes her really cool as Oracle

>>149504959
So she only existed so Superman could bench press the weight of the Earth for 5 days for no reason?

¿¿149505458??
We follow the card draws to the arc of this moment where Abin summons a false John in order to test Hal and Jo, having realized after their second burly brawl that he'd too smart to attack directly.
On the next Pocky and Rocky! Devil But No God OR Abin Sur Does Not Know Of Yahweh!

>>149505458
Well good to know that an entire lab of scientists were turned into biological copies of her for reasons.

>>149496902
To be fair, Wolfman Starfire was pretty open with her sexuality (even though all her love interests besides Dick ended up dying), but she was also a lot more light-hearted than traumatized edgelord New 52 Starfire.

>>149492392
Reminder that Perez left Superman because when he asked what the new canon was, DC literally just told him, "We don't know."

>>149498759
I think Hellblazer was supposed to be its own continuity for a while and so was Shade. But everyone, writers included, ignores that, so it doesn't matter.

>>149493342
>That time Captain Atom killed Apollo, Midnighter, and Jenny by doing literally nothing

>>149506529
If DC hadn't fucked things up so bad we could have actually gotten more Perez issues and art.

>>149506483
Wasn't there an issue where Dick sheepishly admits that he and Raven may have made out during astral projection and Star tells him to just go in her room and fuck her for real because "that's what good friends do on Tamaran"?

>>149506483
Is one thing to be open about your sexuality and other is her having sex with anyone as if she was sharing candies.
With roy, was just her in a pool, then, saying to Roy if he wanted to have sex just because.

>>149506727
Even before Stanfire and beast boy.
Raven had the hots for Robin first.
Dick even kissed her on real life a couple of times.

>>149506608
>Capt Atom gets sent to Wildstorm to blow it up so it can be integrated into the DCU
>DC even creates a replacement for him in case t they want to do new Capt Atom stories after he's dead
>Story fizzles so hard Capt Atom accidentally kills his replacement when he returns and Wildstorm stays untouched for another five years.

>>149490181 (OP)
Dan Dildo showed up

>>149502156
>no memorable runs, no rogues gallery, no supporting cast, and NO SALES
So she's a Batgirl is what you're telling me.

Or a member of the Batfamily not named Bruce, Jason, and Dick if we're really being honest.

>>149506761
That was also the conversation where she pretended that once you cum into her, she completely forgets who you are to handwave why she doesn't care about Dick anymore.

IIRC, they went back and retconned that to her trying to cover something up by pretended to be a dumb whore?

>>149502261
Being fair a huge part of why it wasn't different enough has to do with the fucking cascade effects that Johns caused with his Halfag agenda during the planning stages mentioned here>>149494533.

He fought hard supporting Didio in return for removing John as the primary Green Lantern, which allowed Didio to further help gut the TT by making Cyborg the diversity hire to appease the suits' agendas at the time, which in turn caused a "Well now we can't make other stuff TOO different or it'll scare the readers" thing because the original pitch for Nu52 was, at its core "Use a take on the DCAU league as a foundation that's still relatively familiar for kids and do new things with each of them without being burdened by continuity." which writers already didn't wanna do and were throwing tantrums over so they practically salivated over getting to ignore as much of that as possible once they got the opportunity.

>>149506866
Boy comics sometime can be really retarded. Specially tying to retconing all the dick relationship with starfish.

>>149504409
Well I'm glad you abandoned your argument for snark since you never had a good argument to begin with. I accept your concession yet again.

>>149502261
Ultimate was literally just three books for most of its existence: Spider-Man, Ultimates, and X-Men. Earth One (which predates New 52) only started with three books, too. All the major changes in New 52 could have easily just been Earth One stuff.

And you're right; there wasn't nearly enough to justify 52 individual comic books coming out by the same company.

>>149507420
Since you two are just going to snark back and forth forever, I do have to ask:
Why DO X-Fags get so worked up over being asked why mutants get so much hate from the Marvel civvies when Marvel civvies don't demand anyone else with superpowers get legitimately genocided with taxpayer money? We know the X-Men help everyone else out, but how deeply were the Avengers involved in the whole Legacy Virus thing? Or Genosha? Or that time Obama asked Cap to kill the Pheonix Phive because their only request in exchange for literally bringing world peace was for all nations to stop fucking with the 200 mutants that still existed?
It just seems like the core conceit of the X-Men premise works better if the only people with superpowers were mutants.

They hired the EiC who mismanaged Marvel to such an extent that DC was beating them in market share during the years he was in charge, and they kept on the guy who hadn't been giving them any big results since 2005.

>>149507635
I mean despite the gaslighting, the core conceit of the X-men premise was "We want to not have to keep making up new origins every fucking issue so fuck it, genetics, and also I guess maybe a metaphor for the new generation.", trying to make them a full on allegory rather than just use them for applicability occasionally came later and didn't fucking work and never has.

>>149507699
>You can see the exact fucking moment they burned up the last of the Shooter good will.
>Dubs
Check'd

>>149507635
The Avengers were fighting against Kang during genosha, while the x-men where in their mansion doing nothing.

>>149504680
>>149505312
>this is not a batman
It's the last issue of the original Batman and Robin series. It's a really underrated story. He creates a whole catalog of villains using modern art and pop psych references.
Dick and Damian go to France, team up with Nightrunner, and stop a bunch of villains took over the Louvre. The main villain is The Son of Man, like the Magritte painting, in the cover.
Read it.

>>149490181 (OP)
Nothing, really. Continuity and "Not muh" fags bitched, but there were still plenty of solid runs. I'd argue the good-to-shit ratio easily surpasses anything DC has done since. The only folks who will disagree are dolts who think bland shit like Bendis Superman is peak.

>>149507734
>trying to make them a full on allegory rather than just use them for applicability occasionally came later and didn't fucking work and never has.

Damn, it hasn't?
I've gotta sell my copy of God Loves, Man Kills then.

>>149504385
They’re a fun bunch.

>>149508173
You're being sarcastic but God loves, Man kills is overrated. Preachy, boring ass book

>>149508246
I think that's honestly where the core of this debate is.
People who hate the idea of X-men as Allegory don't want their cape books preaching to them about equality via clumsy metaphor.
People who hate the idea that X-men is JUST a dumb soap opera with punching don't like that all the possible subtext is literally hollow and doesn't mean anything.

Kinda like how some people insist that Batman strangles Joker to death while others insist that they just laughed heartily together at the end of The Killing Joke.

>>149507734
>I mean despite the gaslighting, the core conceit of the X-men premise was "We want to not have to keep making up new origins every fucking issue so fuck it, genetics, and also I guess maybe a metaphor for the new generation."
I mean yes and no. Stan Lees anecdote is that he didn't want to come up with new origins. But Stan's anecdotes are dubious and regimented and we know how he treated Kirby and Ditko. A lot of them were made later to fit certain narratives.

Early X-Men had them being hated and feared sometimes, but many Marvel characters were and Magneto was mutant Hitler. They used allegory in some stories.

Claremont pushed the allegory further particularly in God Loves, Man Kills and with Magneto's retcon as a Holocaust survivor. But there were just as many stories about cosmic or demonic shit.

X-Men has never been a full on constant allegory until the adaptations made it their sole focus.

I'm tired of people bitching about the allegory because like, comics are a disposable form of entertainment. Claremont's run is reliably good, it doesn't mean it is always good. All concepts with comics get a bit trope filled because you're dealing with stories 23 pages long. The allegory was never meant to be taken seriously and taking these superhero books seriously in that way was always dumb. A kid gets the message but an adult will argue over it.

I blame the adaptations for taking the X-Men out of the context of being a superhero team. And the writers in comics who have made the X-Men cunts to the wider marvel universe in the comics almost following on from this.

>>149507635
>It just seems like the core conceit of the X-Men premise works better if the only people with superpowers were mutants.
It's a superhero universe where anything is possible. You could always ask questions like, where was X during Y, and the answer is because different people were writing different books and you can't make every story be acknowledged everywhere.

When we consume fiction we suspend our disbelief. I hate when people apply selective suspension of disbelief because it's kind of arbitrary. You'll say one thing doesn't make sense whilst glossing over many other things that don't make sense.

To a certain extent whether or not the story is good is whether or not the shit that doesn't make sense is justified but it'll never all make sense because it's a universe with hundreds of creators making it.

>>149508611
>And the writers in comics who have made the X-Men cunts to the wider marvel universe in the comics almost following on from this.
X-Men are one of the main sufferers of the multiplication effect of every new era needing huge ramifications that piss everyone off, that and every X line sales boost is massively eXploited with spin offs.

Remember how fun 52 was. They should have done an anthology book.

>>149508806
>Remember how fun 52 was.
No, I don't.

>>149508941
What didn't you like about it

>>149508806
The problem is every single time they tried to recreate 52 it was fucking awful.

>>149506647
He wasn't good at either at that time.

>>149508682
Might as well be okay with a BMW x7 with heated seats and autopilot in that late 14th century story.

>>149509965
Wrong

>>149498917
>Everyone knows the reason they did so was just because Fox had the rights.
Anon, no. Not everything stupid that happened in X-Men comics is because of movie rights. The "this is because of movie rights" era doesn't start until around the mid 2010s when Ike fell out with people at Fox, and the things you're talking about had been going on way longer.

And Marvel Comics were not letting X-Men writers shame the Avengers and try to make them look bad because Fox had the X-Men movie rights. That wouldn't make any sense, and X-Men comics have kept doing it after Disney bought all the Fox movie rights.

>>149510018
That's your nostalgia talking. By 2011 he was a has-been.

>>149509611
I would say 52 wasn't that great to begin with too

>>149510012
Nah we're talking about different things. A historical story is not the same as a superhero universe.

Selective suspension of disbelief when it comes to comics is really arbitrary because there is so much that will never make sense, so much so that it is baked into the genre.

>>149490221
fpbp

>>149510140
It's the same thing, you're accepting bullshit in one instance but aren't in a different one.

>>149501595
It's more like the changes made to the X-Men books in the early 2000s really made them not fit into the wider Marvel Universe very well anymore, and the people working on those books can't or won't walk back from that, and ever since the early 2000s, they keep wanting to do big status quo shifts that would affect the rest of Marvel and destroy the "world outside your window" illusion instead of staying in their lane.

>>149510078
Nah, 52 was fine. It had some mediocre parts, but overall I enjoyed it. Countdown to Crisis was awful, and I didn't even try Batman Eternal.

>>149503289
Morrison wrote in Talia raping Bruce when he first introduced Damien. He couldn't be bothered to reread the story where Damien was born to get the details right when he was turning that baby into Damien.

>>149510157
You're talking about 20 page story, a largely disposable form of entertainment with quick creative turn arounds and low profit margins. There is a certain flexibility in contrivance that is baked into superhero comics because of the medium. I'm not defending all contrivances, I am saying though that at a certain point, some criticism of the criticisms do fall into the nitpicking category and don't acknowledge this context. There is a difference.

>>149495074
The funniest thing is that censorship made this cover the most iconic image of Batgirl

>>149505052
It was meant to kick off a Johns run. So it was part one of a longer story we never saw. In a sense Flashpoint never finished. We don't know if he could have rescued his mother.

>>149508682
That's the thing, though. From the perspective OF the X-Men comics, you have to engage in selective suspension of disbelief. You just have to accept that, for some reason, no one wants to lynch Thor, even though HE was born with his powers. You have to just accept that all those supervillains with unaccounted-for powers are just given a pass and not regularly executed for having superpowers. It took until the Krakoan Age for Sentinels to be built specifically to kill other heroes with powers; why is that?

>>149510230
Hadn't Morrison already written a story where Batman can literally will himself to not get hard or be forced to ejaculate when some other lady villain tried to rape him?

For a guy who insists that literally every Bat-Story is canon, he completely ignored some crucial things to make Damien a rape-baby.

>>149510373
>It took until the Krakoan Age for Sentinels to be built specifically to kill other heroes with powers; why is that?
Before the constant genocide storylines, other heroes fought sentinels more than the x-men themselves, Spider-Man fought against the triple one.

>>149510373
>no one wants to lynch Thor,
But that's the thing. Most Marvel heroes deal with PR issues from time to time. And even then, X-Men deal with a variety of stuff too.

>Krakoan Age for Sentinels
This is factually incorrect as canonically the first Days of Future Past mention all the other heroes were killed (1981). Note the names of the FF

>>149510412
I think Morrison just hates Talia, see the ending of Batman Inc.

>>149503725
In retrospect, it's amazing to think that in the 1970s when the CCA loosened it's restrictions and DC could've gone to town on doing some sexy Batgirl comics, they instead didn't really want to do anything with her because for decades they were full of people seething about Batman '66.

>>149507635
>We know the X-Men help everyone else out,

WE KNOW THAT. The marvel populace doesn't know that. The marvel citizens see the Fantastic Four and Avengers act like celebrities. They have press conferences. They explain their actions. They clean up their messes. The X-men don't do this. The X-men show up fight whatever evil mutant is making a mess and then fuck off without a word. In the off chance you do manage to get a statement from one of them they spout the same rhetoric about evolution their enemies do.

>, but how deeply were the Avengers involved in the whole Legacy Virus thing? Or Genosha? Or that time Obama asked Cap to kill the Pheonix Phive because their only request in exchange for literally bringing world peace was for all nations to stop fucking with the 200 mutants that still existed?
Where were the X-men when Kang attack. or Ultron, or the Masters of Evil etc.

>>149510469
Addendum: Any time a mutant has been on the Avengers, they did more good to even out human mutant relations than any X-man ever did. You know the problem with x-men isn't them being mutants. It's modern writers with a chip on their shoulder and a victim complex.

>>149510252
>I'm not defending all contrivances
Exactly, only the ones you have personal investment in. Hypocrite.

>>149510444
>Haha heehee
>My brilliant plan of insisting all of Batman's stories happened has finally paid off!
>Talia Al Ghul was killed by the original Batwoman that DC didn't want around anymore
>GET IT? "I DON'T EXIST"? BECAUSE SHE'S TREATED AS NON-CANONICAL???

>>149510536
>moo
Indeed, Batcow. Moo indeed. God what a weird run.

>>149510469
>>149510487
All this is really proving is that the X-Men really ought to be religated to their own universe. They contribute literally nothing to the major goings on of the 616

>>149510412
He doesn't insist on that, his goal with his Batman run was to legitimize past Batman stories that were considered idiotic and non canon. Also, some of you still insist on this rape baby thing even though he wrote them in the very panels in bed and he just presented Talia as being massively in love with him and wanting an Alexander son and Bruce just a dude that wanted to get his dick wet and that quickly realized he stuck it in crazy. It's been over a decade and some of you still go hurr rape baby, then again you lot keep calling him Damien after about two fucking decades.

>>149510498
Anon, the part that I keep stressing is context. The context of the medium matters and I think that gets forgotten about in these discussions. What part of that don't you understand. It's difficult to discuss things when you gloss over everything.

>>149510055
This is wrong, the X-Men’s burial happened around Avengers Diassembled/New Avengers when Marvel was trying to get investors for their fledgling movie studio. Marvel did everything to prop up the Avengers franchise since those were the only characters they had the rights to so they could go to banks and say “see how well this franchise is selling give us money so we can make movies of it”. Liefeld talks about it on his podcast and it was also pretty apparent reading the books at the time that Marvel was purposefully sabotaging the line with the Decimation shit

>>149510600
You're choosing to ignore context though. You're framing your own little context.

>>149510570
No it's proving you're an idiot

>>149510620
You mean what you've been doing?

>>149510577
Talia used a love potion.

>>149510487
The true villain of the X-Men is editorial. In the late 80s the X-Men became the biggest title and the big crossover events were born. And that has spiralled ever since. Everything needs to be bigger and more calamitous than the last, only to be reset.

And also Marvel has, since it's inception, thrived on contrived drama between heroes. Amazing Spider-Man #1 literally features Spidey trying to join the FF and getting into a fight with them.

I just think the forced drama is an issue when taking into account all continuity or when characters have to act wildly out of character to create conflict rather than organically building to it. And that happens a bunch in events

>>149507699
>They hired the EiC who mismanaged Marvel to such an extent
To be fair, he inherited the job when Marvel were bankrupted by way their owned had run the company, and a lot of the big controversial event stories readers still complain about to this day had already happened. Nobody could've turned the ship around overnight, it would even have taken someone like Shooter years. That Marvel managed to stay in business long enough to turn things around is something of an achievement. And you're underselling that DC had to be doing something right in those years for their market share to have increased.

>>149510620
I just described the context of the industry. How the medium constructs an individual story contributes to things. It's partly baked into the DNA of superheroes. That isn't "my context" that's how the industry has been.

>>149510647
You always get mad and throw out insults like a child when you're proven wrong.

>>149510715
Nta, but be honest anon, you've been rude to a bunch of people ITT. So don't pearl clutch and act offended now.

>>149510570
>All this is really proving is that the X-Men really ought to be relegated to their own universe.
No it's not. The problem with mutant hate is that now it lacks balance. People will accept mutants but they need to cut the secrecy crap. Cut the villain ideology crap. If you read X books up until like the 00s the whole mutant thing was typically the average person being cautious and scared from a lack of knowledge. Maybe some under the breath comments. But shit like the sentinels were rarities and by extremists. The government even used to have it's own mutant team at one point. Get good writers who don't obsess with picking fights and making the x-men look bad and it's good.

>>149510536
Honestly I could never figure out if Kathy was canon or not. The way Kate and Betty talked about her it seemed like she was, but she was never shown or talked about by anybody else. Weird.

>>149508611
>I blame the adaptations for taking the X-Men out of the context of being a superhero team.
And the comics of the early 2000s for convincing most of the fandom and most of the writers that it's not supposed to be a superhero comic, it's supposed to be a science fiction story about an emergent race of superbeings AND an allegory for minorities at the same time.

>>149508682
Imagine if Spider-Man was constantly bitching at other superheroes for not being there during Maximum Carnage. But the X-Men make it part of their oppression porn and people eat it up.

>>149510774
The X-writers don't WANT the avengers to show up and solve x-problems. You'll often get mutants telling non mutant heroes to fuck off because "mutants police their own" and then act all hurt when their own shit blows up in their faces. It's all the writers.

Holy autism this has turned into another dumb X-Men conversation. The problem is too many of you bring your grand narrative perceptions onto things rather than the actual stories themselves.

At a certain point one could argue a bunch of shit "doesn't fit" like having any human characters (or peak fitness) run around with super powered people doesn't make sense. This leads to infinite regression where everything breaks down.

The main thing I would criticise modern X-Men writers in doing is the cult like shit that keeps them in conflict with everyone else but that does feel part and parcel with the constant heroes vs heroes big events.

>>149510373
There's only one Thor, and his first contact with humanity didn't involve him declaring himself a master race that was going to replace humans. This isn't difficult to understand.

>It took until the Krakoan Age for Sentinels to be built specifically to kill other heroes with powers; why is that?
That's not even true. That happened previously with the Red Skull's Sentinels in Axis. And Emma's Inhuman-killing Sentinels in IVX.

>>149510774
>Imagine if Spider-Man was constantly bitching at other superheroes for not being there during Maximum Carnage. But the X-Men make it part of their oppression porn and people eat it up
I feel like this perception is overblown outside a few situations where it happened. I really don't think X-Men is as much oppression porn as people think it is. Even reading Krakoa stuff, there was a bunch of other shit in there.

To be clear, yeah a bunch of oppression porn can be silly, but people can't name that many examples outside a few but feel like it is all encompassing even when it isn't.

>>149510760
This is why everyone who wasn't a die hard X-Fag hated the Krakoan Era. It's literally the X-Men giving humanity reason after reason to fear them, after-which they poke their bottom lips out and cry when a terrorist group basically has to threaten to kill every non-mutant and prep Earth to be deleted by a Type X God Civilization from Beyond Time to make them stop.

>>149510774
>allegory for minorities at the same time.
That allegory has been there for some time but it was never meant to be taken completely seriously. When Stryker says "you dare call that thing human" while pointing at Nightcrawler in God Loves, Man Kills, the audience knows Nightcrawler is a hero and a good person and maybe you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Simple messages aren't meant to be taken completely seriously in exact manners. They are simple. We like Nightcrawler and he's being judged. Thinking about all the implications of what real life super powered people would be like is not what those stories are about.

>>149510895
>This is why everyone who wasn't a die hard X-Fag hated the Krakoan Era
I am a die hard X-fag and I HATED it more than anyone. Real X-men fans don't want this. Not the old school ones anyways. I want my Cyclops who stands for the dream more than even Xavier does. I want my Beast who quotes literature and goofs off. I want my mutant heroes who fight for a world that fears and hates them because it's the right thing to do. I can't imagine anyone who grew up reading X-men prior to Morrison wanting any of this.

>thread about New 52
>autists complaining about X-Men
Anyway, how did people feel about Animal Man and Swamp Thing runs? And the Rotworld crossover?

>>149510703
Paul Jenkins had nothing but bad things to say about the way Harras's DC was run https://bleedingcool.com/comics/the-bullying-of-creators-paul-jenkins-talks-about-leaving-dc-and-marvel-for-boom/
>Perhaps if I sent you the actual script that I wrote for Dark Knight #5 to compare against the pile of turd they published? I don't know. Perhaps if I told you that I refused to rewrite #6 when it was handed in because I had already written the script a few times and then reworked it to fulfill editorial requirements prior to the penciling, only to have a completely different story handed to me? If you read the credits you will see that someone is given credit for "dialogue assists." That's actually quite unfair on that creator – I told DC to take my name off the book. It pained me that they did not do so, nor on #7. Issue #8 of that series was begun as a five-part story. It was then pared down to two issues by me when it became clear the relationship was not working. It was actually published as one issue. That's what the fans paid for: my name, and a reworking of the issue done without my knowledge, where I was alerted to the fact only when the issue hit the stands. What a repulsive mess. Shame on the editors and shame on the publisher.

>DC is in the toilet right now. It reminds me of the way Marvel was just before we did Marvel Knights. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about the similarities and connections.

>>149510973
They were both pretty good until the Rotworld crossover which was pretty lousy. Should have been kept separate.

>>149510973
Animal Man was fucking stellar, but the Swamp Thing part just felt like it was rehashing all the Arcane plots from the 80s. I forget; how did they fix Rotworld in the end? I know there was a "No you dumbasses; the Green, Red, and Rot literally exist in balance. Didn't you learn anything from Swamp Thing's fight with Floronic Man?", but the Frankenstein crossover very much painted it as something that should have been a company wide crossover, but wasn't.

>>149511035
The problem was with Anton being a bastard and it was solved when Abby became the avatar of the rot instead, leading to an angst-ridden split with Alec.

>>149510601
You're seeing 'deliberate sabotage' and 'burial' because you somehow genuinely believe that there being gorillions of deformed NPC mutants all over the world was perfectly fine, that the X-Men themselves turning into assholes who clearly only cared about mutants was perfectly fine, that the books transitioning away from being superhero comics built around action and soap opera was perfectly fine, and that the X-Men falling off the top of the sales charts after 20 years on top was perfectly fine and nothing needed to change.

The idea that Marvel handed the X-Men franchise over to pseuds who couldn't see past the metaphor, and it broke the books on a fundamental level and they weren't as appealing to readers anymore just isn't occurring to you because "muh mutants were winning", or because you started reading in 2001 and don't know any better.

Marvel didn't cut down the number of X-Men books in the mid 2000s, they didn't stop putting name-value talent on the books. Literally all they did was get rid of the NPC mutants who weren't even a thing until 2001, and people like you act like this was a deliberate act of sabotage they never recovered from, as if you never really cared for pre-Morrison X-Men in the first place.

The idea that the whole MCU was that planned out, that far in advance of them even knowing if Iron Man would be a success is just delusional conspiracy nonsense. Avengers had been a top 10 book for years, declined after Perez left, and Millar pitched turning it into an all-star book, Bendis backed him and wrote it. That's all that happened.

>>149511081
>Marvel didn't cut down the number of X-Men books in the mid 2000s, they didn't stop putting name-value talent on the books. Literally all they did was get rid of the NPC mutants who weren't even a thing until 2001, and people like you act like this was a deliberate act of sabotage they never recovered from, as if you never really cared for pre-Morrison X-Men in the first place.
I am pretty sure that before Morrison, more than 200s mutants existed.
The burial is similar to one more day.

>>149490181 (OP)
the writing was almost all pivoted to a younger, modern, more retarded audience.
they alienated the people who already read it for people that might read it (but didn't), also the writing was retarded sometimes which nobody likes

I just remembered the Joker cut off his face.

And and they condensed No Mans Land into a early years Batman story with the Riddler taking over Gotham. Oof.

>>149511149
They talked about how the target demographic was mid 30s dudes

>>149492264
i first started reading comics from downloading individual issues off of /rs/ in that era.

>>149510979
I wasn't defending his time at DC, just pointing out Marvel was already in serious trouble when he got the EIC job, and there was probably nobody who could've turned things around quickly. They could easily have gone out of business entirely under a worse EIC, or under one who was better but took risks they just couldn't afford to take at that time.

There's not really anything to say to defend his time as DC EIC other than him seeming to be very much the junior partner to Didio and Lee. Harras' main contribution seems to have been hiring his old Marvel cronies more than being the one making the big creative calls.

It's worth noting that Jenkins never even worked for Marvel before Marvel Knights, though, and IIRC didn't work on a non-Knights book until Quesada was EIC, so he's not someone who'd have massive insight on what it was like. And it's cute that he thinks it was his name people were paying for on a Batman book and not Batman.

>>149510934
>Thinking about all the implications of what real life super powered people would be like is not what those stories are about.

Fucking laser etch this on the moon in mile high letters. This is a problem in all comics, not just x-books.

>>149510973
Animal Man was fine but Swamp Thing was just Snyder ripping off a more talented writer, yet again.

>>149508173
>Points out an example of it being used applicably
Anon are you retarded by chance.

>>149511147
In the 1960s there were less than 50 mutants. Marvel don't actually need more than 200 mutants in order to produce X-Men comics featuring all the characters people actually care about.

Did Marvel go full retard with their extinction storyline? Yes. They should have just done a hard reset to pre-2001 and memoryholed the whole era.

Was it a deliberate attempt to kill X-Men as a comic? No, and anyone claiming this is just delusional.

>>149511419
Are you?

>>149510934
Anons mentioned it but I think people really need to learn the difference between"I can apply this temporarily to demonstrate an idea or comparison, even if it doesn't hold up long term or to indepth scrutiny", IE Applicability, and Allegory, IE "No X just means Y and is supposed to be able to hold up to sustained, indepth examination as a representation of Y.".

God Loves, Man Kills is "Mutants are *technically* a subset population of individuals, ergo I can *apply* the trappings and framings of discrimination to them inorder to make a point about it, even if it doesn't work out if you think about it too hard because it's not supposed to, it's just making a basic point.", while 2000s X-men is desperately trying to make X-Men their caricature of what they think minorities suffer as an allegory for them, ignoring that it doesn't work out and falls apart. Basically by trying to say "no this IS exactly just like Y" and insisting on it being their core gimmick rather than "It can be LIKE Y" and and something they do occasionally, they invite attention and stringency in evaluation they can't hold up to.

>>149510962
Hey, even zoomers like me who got into X-Men post Morrison don't want this. The whole Krakoa age was actual literal cancer, written by a fucking imbecile who thought himself clever. It was basically a guy going "Oh Marvel let me do my second Legion pitch after my first one didn't work out as I wanted".

There was nothing clever or interesting to the writing either, just a guy jerking off over how smart he was because he read Dune, where he got rid of everything that actually made the X-Men interesting in favour of his dumbass mythology that was just DC with the serial numbers filed off.

Beyond the premise being absolutely dogshit, he got rid of the the thing that actually drew people to X-Men, which was these varying personalities and backgrounds interacting, instead turning everyone into just these vague archetypes with powers who had no real personality, further continued to seperate them from Marvel their original cosmos to do his shitty Legion and Dune fanfic about a race war etc. Just genuine dogshit.

The thing imho which shows Hickman's ass so, so much is his whole "Oh I changed Apocalypse's backstory into being discount Mordru out of respect for Kirby" because at that point, why the fuck are you using Apocalypse. Selene worked as well for your dumbass bullshit.

>>149511531
>while 2000s X-men is desperately trying to make X-Men their caricature of what they think minorities suffer as an allegory for them
It's been so long since I read Morrisons X-Men but what are some examples of 2000s X-Men doing this?

>>149510536
You unironically have summed up one of the two big problems of the Big 2 comics due to the effect of Morrison. Unlike Moore who despite all his bullshit, is genuinely a smart guy who wants to tell interesting stories, you have the generation of Morrisons who want to show you how smart they are.

It's the thing that Remender, hack though he can be pretty much was screaming at Marvel for during the whole post AvX stuff about dudes like Hickman, King etc where he points out that these guys are not clever. They are just giving the illusion of being clever and when you ultimately finish these stories, you see how utterly empty they really are.

>>149510679
What's so utterly frustrating is Claremont knew that this would be a problem. It's why so so much of his work after the Dark Phoenix Saga explictly changed genres, tones and settings. It's the fundamental problem of Marvel and DC, especially in the 90s where they think that they have the formula for these big successful runs and stories.

In the 90s it was these huge important events where nothing would be the same and a bunch of new characters were introduced.

In the 00s and early 10s, it was "updating comics" to fit modern day sensibilities.

Now it's "Be discount Morrison and Moore.

>>149511081
>they didn't stop putting name-value talent on the books
Yes they did. Do you know who followed Joss Whedon and Warren Ellis on Astonishing X-Men, their marquee X-book? Daniel Way

>>149511081
>The idea that the whole MCU was that planned out, that far in advance of them even knowing if Iron Man would be a success is just delusional conspiracy nonsense.
In the early 2000s Marvel was going to banks and investors to pay for what would become the MCU and, at that moment, finance the first Iron Man movie
>Avengers had been a top 10 book for years, declined after Perez left, and Millar pitched turning it into an all-star book, Bendis backed him and wrote it. That's all that happened.
Avengers was a solid C, maybe B book that younger readers, like me at the time, saw as a dorky relic from the Bronze Age. Quesada was given marching orders from above to make Avengers appealing to investors so he asked his top two creators at the time, Millar and Bendis, what should be done.

>>149511790
>Mister Miracle is about how Darkseid finally beats Scot Free by trapping him in the Anti-Life Equation!
>Mister Miracle is comics told by adults, for adults!
King's Mister Miracle is literally "Minor celebrity survives a suicide attempt, has a kid with his long time girlfriend, and they both leave their shitty hometown and abusive family. The End." If it weren't couched in Fourth World stuff, it would be a fucking lame indie movie from the 2000s that barely anyone remembers.

>>149511790
>Unlike Moore who despite all his bullshit, is genuinely a smart guy
He really isn't. Morrison and Moore are both maybe slightly above average intelligence writers. I find Morrison's meta-references a lot more fun than Moore's dourness. Using a visual metaphor to demonstrate how Moore killed the superhero comic with his deconstruction and that there's no going back after you do that.

>>149512054
>if King's lame writing was couched in comic stuff, it'd be lame indie movies
frfr

>>149511828
That's not a great example, as that only happened because Ellis had kind of tanked the idea of Astonishing as the marquee book. Uncanny would be treated as the main book afterwards and get the biggest writers. And even someone like Way ended up being the guy who made a Deadpool book sell well.

>>149511911
Avengers had been one of Marvel's better selling books since the Heroes Reborn and Heroes Return relaunched in the 90s, and remained a top 10 book for years afterwards. It still only declined to a top 25 book under Chuck Austen, but this was enough of a problem that Quesada had people pitching ideas to turn the book around, Millar pitched New Avengers, and here you are trying to make it all a conspiracy over movies, and here you are denying that Avengers was a popular book that had been selling well for years.

You can read the Wikipedia article on the development of the Iron Man movie, and find out that the Iron Man rights didn't revert to Marvel until 2005, the year after New Avengers launched. In 2004 the Iron Man rights were still with New Line. The idea that Marvel's comic creative decisions in the early 2000s were being made with regard to plans to finance a movie someone else had the rights to is just nonsense, whoever you heard it from was wrong.

>>149512141
>Dourness
>Moore's Supreme, ABC stuff etc
>His pisstake on Wildstorm

Moore may be many things but he's not this soulless asshole who only writes dark and edgy bullshit. Likewise, you can tell that he doesn't just go "What if X was dark and edgy". His Captain Britain run is a massive tribute show to Michael Moorcock, Supreme is one to Pre-Crisis Supes etc.

The dude can do a lot of variety and genuinely has a hilarious sense of humor, even in some of his darker projects.


You compare to Tom King, who as this anon says >>149512054, is just a guy who is basically a guy who copies movie scripts and then slaps superheroes and metaphors for post 9/11 America/War on Terror on em, without understanding what actually made those original stories interesting.

Seriously, think about it.

Danger Street=Fargo/Cohen Brothers
Mister Miracle=Jacob's Ladder
Human Target=DOA
Supergirl=True Grit

There was that Batman arc which was just 12 angry men.

>>149512141
Ironically enough, none of the problems with comics can be traced to more.

Aaaand posts like this is why normies don't care about comic accuracy

>>149491056
Context?

>>149512348
Even when he's trying to be fun, there's always something sleazy or miserable in Moore's work. He's just too weird to be normal.

>>149498757
I liked Stephanie Brown. Sure, she was a bit of a fuckup, but her cheerfulness and being poor as fuck was funny.

>>149512663
When introducing the New 52 versions Jay Garrick (the original Flash) and his girlfriend Joan Williams, they IMMEDIATELY broke them up so Jay could become the Flash. Joan is literally never seen again and presumably dies when Earth-2 gets blown up.

When they were originally introduced, Jay and Joan start dating and married all the way back in the 40s. They genuinely had the longest relationship in comic history. And it was destroyed specifically because modern comic book writers think superheroes can't be relatable if they're in a relationship.

>>149510962
Trust me, my guy. I dont want that shit either.

>>149513418
>And it was destroyed specifically because modern comic book writers think superheroes can't be relatable if they're in a relationship.

I really want to find who started this and box their ears in.

>>149513502
Calm down there Nyneave.

But yeah. Where did this shit start? I mostly think either Quesada's midlife crisis breaking up Peter and MJ, or editors at DC going back and forth on if they should destroy Superman/Lois.

>>149513502
The 1st new 52 Batwoman writer said that it was DC editorial, something about "the characters being too happy"

>>149513544
>But yeah. Where did this shit start?
Seriously. This wasn't a problem for like 20 years and then all of a sudden editors starting bitching up a storm.

>>149513863
The Superman 2000 pitch by Millar, Morrison and Waid

>>149513863
Midlife crisis. Just tons of them all around in editorial. Lot's of "why isn't this like when I was a kid!?"

>>149513502
DiDio.
Blame DiDio.

>>149502325
Extremes demonstrate contrast.

>extremes are for idiots.
>capeshit is capeshit.
>it's all identical. All or nothing.

I'll go watch The Boys and follow it up with The Super Friends since they've got the same target audience.
You're a subhumanly retarded faggot.

>>149503191
Not me. See attached. Many people think you're an inbred trogladyte.

>>149513988
You mention his name in my LCS there's a coinflips chance I'll go on a rant. God I hate that fucker.

>>149512141
Moore's comics are full of meta-references as well. Watchmen is part meta-comic.

>>149513771
I remember Adam Glass specifically wanting to write N52's Suicide Squad because he hated Ostrander's OG Squad's moments of genuine comradery. He flat out thought it would be retarded for villains to ever pal around or become friends.

>>149513930
What a missed opportunity that was. We still got a few good Superman comics so it kinda worked out anyway but this could've been a defining run for Superman.

>>149510962
God I miss old Cyclops.

>>149514675
God what happened to us? Where did we lose everything.