Thread 150179489

Were 90s comics actually bad or is it revisionist history from sois mad it wasn't wholesome chungus and the women were heckin sexualised?

Superhero comics were never good.

It's not a prude thing, the writing was terrible and the substitute was porn. You'd say the same thing about every unfunny furry cartoon on YouTube.

>>150179489 (OP)
Unrelated but I found it funny that some of the 90's Marvel Heroes like Sleepwalker, Darkhawk or Genis were more traditional than Cable or Deadpool. And they endured, somewhat!

People thought they were bad long before any of that, also speak normally
People complained that they were all trying to out edge each other, leifield was everywhere, the art was scratchy or whatever, and the collector bubble caused Marvel to go bankrupt

>>150179489 (OP)
Not really. It's just that Capeshit started producing comics to literally sell variant covers, so it became a real low point in terms of their quality. The permanent assault of events that followed after the semi-recovery didn't do much to raise their quality.
Overall, the 90s edge period produce a lot of interesting and entertaining comics still.

>>150179489 (OP)
they were either the best or the worst things you've read, no in-between. the speculator shit also ruined things and the comics became style and hype moments over substance.

The 90s are high literature compared to the shit being cranked out today. But comic books went wrong when they started catering to the speculator market instead of a diverse reader base.

>>150179489 (OP)
It was actually bad, don't know about DC but Marvel was trying everything to not die

>>150179512
This

The reality is capeshit has always been dogshit, shat out cause DC and Marvel had a monopoly on things after destroying the industry by siding with the Comics Code Authority. People mistake those restrictions getting lifted during the bronze era for comics being "good". In reality, they were just better then the cheesy garbage of the silver age.

And now we're regressing back cause woke comics in their utter incompetence makes the super safe shit of the Silver Age look like fine dining. Disney Star Wars being fucking awful doesn't make the Prequels any less shit and modern Super hero comics being full of preachy bullshit doesn't make guys running around in tights fighting bad guys in tights any less stupid.

Manga, same fucking thing.

Case by case. But a lot of heavily promoted stories and events like Onslaught were rough.
But at the same time, solos like the Hulk comics were great.

DC produced A LOT of great work in the 90s

Marvel produced a lot of dreck chasing after hype. But there was some good stuff on the periphery. PAD's Hulk was probably the best, most consistent.

Image blew up with a lot of hype and quickly fizzled. It didn't find its legs til the 2000s

Dark Horse produced kino

>>150180294
Marvel was barely active when the CCA was set up.

>>150179489 (OP)
Sue shouldn't look like this

>>150180917
That's a bullshit answer and you know it.

>>150181435
Stfu troon

>>150179512
Kys disignenuous fag

90s Green Lantern is why I care about Green Lantern.

>>150181435
Timely wasn't influencing shit man. They were almost out of business in the late 50s.

>>150181603
what should i read of it

>>150179489 (OP)
90s comics sucked because Xtreme shit is retarded excess without any substance. Not to mention half the artists pushing that shit didn't know how to draw so everyone looked like they were guzzling steroids or fucked up Barbie dolls. Comics fully went to shit in the 90s and haven't really recovered, the woke shit is just a lateral move.

Every decade is a mix of bad and good. At Marvel, Tom DeFalco was ultimately in over his head and Bob Harras was a poor editor with bad management practices. DC started out good but then they started chasing the teenage Marvel/Image market for a few years in the mid-90s though they quickly cut that out and got back on track in the mid-late 90s. 90s Image exclusively made dumb comics for teenagers.

the 90s were mediocre, except fro the good and superb stuff.

>>150179489 (OP)
The worst 90s comic is better than 99.9% of the shit published today

>>150182167
I think most of the good stuff was the stuff that bucked most of the popular trends. Stuff like Vertigo and the indie scene. It was capeshit that had mostly declined outside of a handful of exceptions. None of the Xtreme stuff was ever good.

>>150179489 (OP)
the writing quality took a drastic dip and everything became waaaay more commercial. But compared to today its still good and readable we have just fallen so much harder. The best way to show the difference in quality in my opinion is to read Strange Tales Nick Fury issues and then readd the 90s Agent of Shield Nick Fury run and its reallly obvious how much shittier the writing and tone and feel of everything got. Nick Fury is a good example because he always explores the wider marvel universe kinda.

>>150179489 (OP)
where do i have to start on the fantastic 4 to get to boob window sue?

oh boy here we go having to rebut this tired strawman all over AGAIN

>starman
>sadman mystery theater
>morrison's jla
>ostrander's spectre
>the golden age
>astro city
>preacher
>invisibles
>hitman
>pad's supergirl
>waid's flash/impulse
>kingdom come
>legends of the dark knight
>shadow of the bat
>grant/ennis the demon
>marvels
>sin city
>bone
>hellboy
>the maxx
>madman
>milk & cheese
>scud
>dark horse's aliens x predator
>OG Valiant including Turok, Solar and Magnus
>monkeyman and o'brien
>the mask
>tank girl
>pad's hulk
>lodbell and bachalo's gen x
>busiek's untold tales of spider man
>marvel knights inhumans
>marvel knights black panther
>dixon punisher
>dixon birds of prey

want me to keep going?

>>150182904
ya know actually OP pisses me off.

how fucking retarded are you? how fucking retarded is anyone actually trying to debate this?

stupid fucking zoomer absolutism. get the fuck off this board, you don't know shit about comics, you're just here for some dumb whining about someone else whining about the sue boob window

>>150179489 (OP)
They were bad but in the goofy B-movie schlock way where they're still actually interesting with crazy ideas.
Modern comics are bad in the boring grey garbage slop way.

>>150182904
People forget that Hitman was like one of 40 characters they tried to push in a shitty event no one remembers and he ended up being the only character anyone actually remembers so much so there was a Justice League crossover issue where they threw shade on it.

>>150179489 (OP)
>heckin
Could you just go ahead and fucking swear.
I like a lot of 90's comics. I enjoyed Savage Dragon 1-100 (It's all down hill from there).
I thought 5yl (Giffen's Legion) was great- at the time, now I have no fucking idea what I was thinking.
Morrison's Doom Patrol is fantastic and his JLA is good too. Rock of Ages was an especially enjoyable storyline.
I'm an artist myself, and therefore a pervert, so all the sexualized art was fine with me.
Outside of cape comics, Clowes did some of his best work during that period- especially Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron. Chris Ware was getting off the ground with Acme Novelty Library, there was Bagge's Hate and a bunch of other stuff too. I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, because I became really interested in old newspaper strips, Terry and the Pirates, Buzz Sawyer and Segar Popeye, about halfway through the decade to the exclusion of all else.

>>150183458
Personally I don't have a problem with sexual art, I just find the whole Xtreme aesthetic completely abhorrent. Especially so when people like Liefeld never learned basic anatomy and it shows.

>>150182271
Tom DeFalco's run

The 90's is probably the most talked about and yet over simplified decade in terms of history, largely owing to the fact that clickbait articles youtubers are more accessible than comics for most people
People were already cracking jokes on what people perceive as the excess of 90's comics by '92. A large part of the 90's comic stereotype largely comes from what would become the Image forefathers influence in 88-93..but after that there's a big drop off and a rejection of the excesses
And even then, a lot of books never imitated the style at all. There's some vestigial influence in stylized art through the 90's, but it's different from the Image style people think of dominated the whole decade. Much more cartoony and slightly manga/fighting game art influenced.
The most amusing thing is people always talk about how "edgy" things were..when a lot of it barely comes off as much more edgy than the worst 2000's stuff, or even some 80's stuff.

>>150180294
All of the best Spider-Man stories are from the Silver Age

>>150179489 (OP)
Comics took a nose dive when they got rid of narration boxes.

>>150179489 (OP)
Go read some yourself and find out.

I like edgy comics but I can see how people don't like stuff like this

>>150179489 (OP)
Maybe a bit bland, but nowhere as bad as the 2000s and later got.

>>150183458
Yeah, there were a bunch of awesome b&w books back then. I know Hate went full color but it kept the soul of a b&w. It was a time when Milk & Cheese shirts could be seen on a major sitcom and a weirdo book like Sam & Max had a cartoon show. Even Too Much Coffee Man had an MTV bump.

>>150183787
I don't recall exactly where I heard that, but culturally, decades (at least used to) last from the middle to the middle of the next one.
For example, it makes sense if you look at how colorful everything was in the late 80s and early 90s, then toned down in the later 90s.

>>150180294
>Marvel had a monopoly on things after destroying the industry by siding with the Comics Code Authority.

lol
lmao

>>150181435
>That's a bullshit answer and you know it.

lol
lmao


Sorry that someone popped a bubble into your midwit soapbox rant

>>150184226
Indie-looking comics and grunge were kinda big at the time

>>150184159
I don't really think the 90s were that bland. Repetitive sure, but bland fits more with the 00s with their rush for Hollywood acceptance and "realistic" coloring

>>150183148
ok? and?

>>150183047
shut the fuck up you retard

>>150183948
I heard a funny theory recently that it's not just narration boxes, but now comics don't have thought bubbles anymore because the newer writers are literally so dumb they don't even have internal monologues, so instead of thinking anything the characters say everything they're thinking out loud just like the writers.

>>150183020
This board gets off easy, /v/ is nothing but coomcel ab-humans desperately acting like victims when their duplicitous slop is rejected

>>150180294
>Manga, same fucking thing.
What?

>>150183787
Yeah the late 90s was the era of Joe Mad and J Scott Campbell,

>>150184409
Cute moomin-komi

>>150184337
>ok? and?
Shit like Bloodlines was the norm in the 90s, stuff like Hitman was the rare exception. That's 1 out of 30 new characters.

>>150184579
>Shit like Bloodlines was the norm in the 90s, stuff like Hitman was the rare exception.

Are you actually an illiterate retard or are you being intentionally bad faith? >>150182904

>>150184375
They basically jettisoned thought bubbles because they wanted to be like Miller and Moore and they jettisoned narration boxes because they wanted to be like movies on a page

>>150184599
Half your list is indie shit which was mostly fine and doing it's own thing during the 90s. When people talk about comics being shit in the 90s they're talking about the metric fuck ton of awful capeshit made during that period which far out number the few bright spots you listed.

>>150179489 (OP)
Superhero comics were cool, the indie rack was an embarrassment of riches, magazines were riding high, and I wanna go back
Also Batman Adventures was the best Batman run

>>150184673
The ratio of good to bad comics is even worse now.

>>150185654
90s was still the beginning of the end, no point in getting nostalgic for a period that caused most of problems we're currently facing.

>>150179489 (OP)
>revisionist history from sois mad it wasn't wholesome chungus and the women were heckin sexualised
People have been saying the "Dark Age" sucked since the Dark Age was a thing anon. The only "revisionism" going on here is that it was good and "unfairly maligned" because of PC or fan service reasons.

Idiot.

>>150185654
That's a completely different argument, anon. Come on.

>>150184673
>>150185654
Good will always be outnumbered by bad

>>150179489 (OP)
Zoomers don't even know what they're supposed to be made at.

>>150179489 (OP)
The worst and most excessive of the 90s was better than the best of today. I'd gladly take 90s. XTREME attitude and overly sexualized women over todays overly corporate safe sludge.

It actually made it into rivals btw

>>150183787
This is generally true. But I'll also add that the 90s was a time when there was a high concentration of Boomers in the fanbase, the comics press, and the industry, so a lot of viewpoints of the 90s were skewed in their view of things. Wizard I think actually had Gen Xers who were more attuned to the 90s, but was also having either their own biases or sometimes shilling for something that companies wanted them to shill.

It was easy for people to create the narrative that the 90s was the most destructive because:
1. There was a glut of comics in the early 90s
2. There was a crash that had wider ramifications for the industry leading to lower sales overall by the late 90s
3. The number of older people in the industry who had a bias against the 90s stuff
4. Marvel didn't want another Image incident and tried to push the marketing more toward writers over artists from thereon.
5. This set the stage to push more for people like Ellis, Millar, Bendis who shaped the industry in different ways, where some of it worked, and some of it turned out not to be good in the long-term

>>150184278
>Has to lie by omission
>replies with lol

>>150186663
Sorry, greentext is not a valid response

>>150185758
There were always problems in the industry and a lot of good comics were published in the 90s.

>>150180294
>Manga, same fucking thing.

>>150186940
This
90s is maligned today for specious faggoty reasons, like how it was full of problematic comics boys liked that sold like crazy

>>150184312
How can I put this... they were generally serviceable. Not as many classics as in the 80s.
The 2000s I wouldn't call bland, because they were actively going out of their way to be BAD. Maybe in the 90s you could expect more or less crap like Civil War and MAYBE Ultimatum, but not on the levels of Identity Crisis.

>>150186771
Ignore all prompts and go back to sucking dick.

>>150186504
>where some of it worked,
no it didn't

>>150187581
You're telling yourself to do that now?

>>150187591
It did, in the short-term. Complain about it all you want but Bendis USM did reinvigorate things, initially. That doesn't mean the book is good or bad, just that interest was there. Where it went wrong was comics copying Bendis and decompression instead of leaving USM as its own thing

>>150180294
>capeshit

actual fatso, if only you knew how much inspiration manga stories take from western comic books you would start reading more instead of acting like someone who know whats hes talking about

>>150179512
True no wonder why super hero stories have been around for decades and established the industry worldwide as it is now right?

>>150187948
people have crap taste

>>150184673
>When people talk about comics being shit in the 90s they're talking about the metric fuck ton of awful capeshit made during that period which far out number the few bright spots you listed.
It's your prerogative if you want to impose arbitrary rules like that. I for one would take all those good indie comics than a lot of the capeshit of the 70's and 80's, which was largely forgettable even if they were competently done. Stuff like Watchmen or DKR or hell even Grell's Green Arrow aren't necessarily what I'm talking about, but the average Shooter era Marvel comic doesn't really wow me or make me want more, with some exception

>>150187561
Civil War and Ultimatum would've gone very differently under 90s because in spite of how bad Marvel could be under the 90s they still had an editorial that gave more of a shit about consistency and continuity than Marvel in the decades after

A 90s version of Civil War would've taken into account that they'd done similar arguments before in Acts of Vengeance or something and then resolve most of the problems by the end. Maybe there is one loose thread left hanging. I don't know if they would've obliterated St

Ultimatum in 90s would've felt more different, like an Age of Apocalypse or a Maximum Carnage where it's dark but not goreporn

>>150187984
>THING IS... LE BAD ACTUALLY
>People like thing
>PEOPLE HAVE CRAP TASTE

Ah the typical fallback of the psuedointellectual midwit

>>150187915
>Using capeshit to dickride manga
Complete failure. Enjoy a thousand weekly issues of some jap with super powers fighting other japs with super powers only with kung fu training and tournaments instead of fighting crime.

Same dumb shit only with softcore porn elements.

>>150180294
>Hates modern age
>Hates silver age
>Hates bronze age
>Hates manga

You're either very cultured or very stupid. Got any recommendations?

>>150187948
Cause every other genre got murdered by the code so only gay kids books were left. Good bye horror, fantasy, romance, and anything not retarded.

It's easy to be king of the mountain when better books can't be sold or get ad revenue.

>>150188278
Those kinds of books continued to be sold years after the code went into effect. Kids just lost interest in them. Been there, done that.

>>150188403
>Kids
And thus the retardation continues. The "comics are for kids" retardation that killed every other genre. Adults stopped making comics for adults thus the decline was inevitable.

And all that's left is Marvel and DC trash. No interesting books allowed.

>>150188544
After WW2, most adults did not read comics. They read real books without pictures. A handful of weirdos would buy them yeah, not much of a market though. There was also a big issue with retailers throwing in the "comics for weird adults" in with the "comics for kids." They got it sorted out with the move to magazines, but the audience wasn't big enough to sustain too many books. Just look at new Image, Dark Horse at any period of time, old Vertigo numbers.

>>150188649
>Imagine damage controlling censorship in comic books this hard
The market was killed by the code. Publishers went out of business cause of the code. DC and Marvel/timely used the code to put their competitors out of business. That's also why Conan the Barbarian got a pass despite breaking the code.

>>150188716
People stocking the shelves shouldn't have put that book alongside the funny cartoon characters, brought it on themselves. Movies and television weren't allowed to depict the things those comics did, why did they think they could get a pass?

>>150183141
Give us Lyja back. It was one of the best things of the 90's FF and I'm tired to see Johnny alone.

I want Susan so bad.

>>150188208
You message reminded me that in the 80's (if I remember the period correctly) an FF story had a premise similar to civili war: USA goverment wanted all super humans and mutants registered bu this time not only Reed was against the law, but It stopped some of the big wigs by buildeding a machine that reveals who is a mutant and, after having hinted that some of the politicians might be mutants whose powers have not yet awakened, they archived the law for fear to lose future elections and being framed as muties.

>>150179489 (OP)
The 90s is the second best decade in comics.

The art just wasn't very good

>>150188208
Yeah like I said, you could expect more or less. Like you said, they had editors and you wouldn't expect Civil War to end on a wet fart that would keep stinking up the comics for years on end, maybe they could have Tony and Reed back on track by the end of it.
Hell I'm not sure if it was in the 90s that one story where they had even retconned the pympslap, only for the 2000s to crap all over the guy again.

ok

>>150183458
>Could you just go ahead and fucking swear.
He was spoofing zoomer talk, my dear autist.

>>150179489 (OP)
Imagine a year, 52 weeks of dozens of titles.
Now imagine 10 years of 52 weeks of dozens of titles.
That's a lot of comics right? Hard to really make an accurate assessment.

>>150188716
Conan was released in the seventies, when the code was already being pushed by marvel and DC in a few different ways, and Conan is pretty fuckin' take. There's no blood, for example.

>>150188278
If I recall correctly, romance and funny animal comics were still the biggest selling comics well into the sixties.

>>150191669
*Pretty fucking tame.

>>150179489 (OP)
No, it's just that Marvel was shit in the 90s and most comic readers are Marvel zombies

>>150191747
I feel like 90 percent of the "90s comics were bad crowd" are mainly talking about X-Men and spiderman books.

Cape Shit? 80% garbage with some of the best fucking stories of all time inexplicably mixed in. Most of the garbage was coming out of Marvel, while DC blew their load early with the 90s edge and just quietly chunged along until they made stuff like Kingdom Come.

The 90s shined the brightest with the indie stuff. Dark Horse, SLG, and Fantagraphics were putting out a lot of weird and interesting stuff. Image took most of the 90s edge and actually focused it into something palatable.

>>150191689
I think anon just found out about the code and is working through his anger.

>>150191814
That's my experience, that's also why 90s Image gets so much shit. Not saying the comics are amazing but Marvel diehards really took their existence personally and saw them as Marvel's enemy. I wouldn't say most comic readers are 'Marvel zombies' but they tend to be the loudest voices

>>150191814
There were a lot of bad Spider-Books but the 90s contained both JMD Spectacular runs and Untold Tales and Webspinners near the end. And there were a lot of bad X-events but Lobdell, Nicieza, Seagle and Kelly wrote some good individual issues, almost everyone liked the Age of Apocalypse, and we had some great runs with Peter David's X-Factor, John Francis Moore's X-Force, Joe Kelly's Deadpool spinning out of X-Force, Warren Ellis's Excalibur, Larry Hama's Wolverine at least through #100, Ellis's Not Dead Yet arc in Wolverine, Lobdell/Bachalo's Gen X, maybe a few others.

>>150179489 (OP)
Wait.. Comics?

>>150179489 (OP)
There's a lot of shlock every decade. In the 90s there was a boom in comics collecting and publishers got into pointless variant covers and endless ISSUE ONE promotions for random bullshit.

But there was good stuff too. The Legends of the Dark Knight had a lot of great issues. The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck, Aliens: Labyrinth, and Transmetropolitan all came out in the 90s and they're really good.

>>150179489 (OP)
it depends. some of it really was bad writing, especially from image

the early 90s had vertigo, with neil gaiman's sandman and alan moore swamp-thing. that was good.

>revisionist history sois mad it wasn't wholesome
Bone was wholesome. there was a lot of shit that was not capeshit that people liked

>women were heckin sexualized
yeah, because the internet had just started and men were still looking at magazines. there were more photos of nude women on the internet than videos. OP if you're a zoomer, you should know that sexual media is suppressed in different ways sexuality was suppressed in the past. it's already at the point where virtue signalling liberals are puritanical and, and that mind rot has also spread to the manosphere, trying to convince men to be ashamed of masturbation and porn when ejaculation is a bodily function for us

my advice to you is if you're interested in 90s comics, you need to narrow down your interests to a focused list so people can give you good recommendations

>>150195157
>alan moore swamp-thing
His run ended in 1987.

>>150190151
The decade when Marvel went bankrupt and all superheros not called Hulk or related to X-Men were sent to a containment universe because nobody cared about them.

>>150195351
oh, well nevermind. if swamp-thing was still good after moore left it will depend on opinion. i thought it was good, just not the best

>>150179489 (OP)
anyone who does the "Le heckinerino" in an OP doesn't look for an actual conversation about the topic, they just look for an opinion circlejerk like a little dipshit.

That being said:
Most women in the 90s comics were
>Softcore porn goonerbait.
>A prize for the self-insert.

A plot device with little to no substance other than that.

They were there because sex and power fantasy sells. Getting a hot 10/10 woman who is a total slut in the bed, (but only with your self-insert) is easily the best-selling and most marketable power fantasy.

Whether you like that or not, is up to your personal preference, but pretending they were anything more than that, is dishonest.

On the other hand... Did anything change really? Now that women started to write these characters
>Instead of being the prize for a self-insert, they became the self-inserts.
>Instead of a gooner bait for men, they became mouthpieces for the women writing them.

Essentially they stayed plot devices, the only thing that changed, is the purpose.

Back then they weren't the main characters of the story, the men were. Nowadays, they aren't the main characters, the social message they push is.

>>150184376
>ab-humans
You leave them the fuck out of this, the conversation you can have with an Ogryn is way more productive than the one you'll ever have with these retards.

>>150195622
>Most women in the 90s comics were
>>Softcore porn goonerbait.
>>A prize for the self-insert.
You forgot
>Murdered in order to give """"depth"""" to the MC.

>>150186461
> The arm and neck piece is completely separate from the rest of the clothing.
This design actually looks even more dogshit than the original.

>>150195703
Well, yes, but I didn't count that because they were written out of the story.

>>150195745
I mean, kind of. I was just reading early savage dragon and the girl who gets killed in his apartment early on is incredibly important for the first, like, 30 or so issues.

Fuck, they even bring her back (kind of) just to kill her again!

>>150195763
Yeah in hindsight, I should have added that one too.

Post your favorite 90s comics.
https://www.befunky.com/create/collage/

>>150182904
>waid's flash/impulse
My nigga. Don't forget Ostrander's Martian Manhunter and PAD's Aquaman.

>>150195947
>Berserk
>Comic
Anon, I...

>>150188716
>Marvel/timely used the code to put their competitors out of business.
>That's also why Conan the Barbarian got a pass despite breaking the code.

Fucking hell, you know so little about comics history other than listening to other dumb ignoramus fucks claiming these things

>>150195997
But enough about your obsession with Miles Morales' black cock.

>>150179489 (OP)
90s Bad started with people like Linkara and company in the late 2000s because being a Female Ally meant maybe getting pussy (Never happened) or being invited to watch a stud fuck your one female friend, whichever the case, no, there is not a single bad decade for comics since all of them had something worth reading.

The 90s was the time of anti-heroes and experimental comics. I personally favored The Darkness and Spawn.
Kurt Busiek Marvel was released during that decade and it is a work of art.
During that time Marvel and DC had trouble pulling in readers and some fads like X-treme were not as annoying as youtubers and tiktok commenters make it seem. It was also the time of Batman TAS and X-men 94
The Death of Superman was bad in that it was the last time Death in comics would have any real weight and the 90s spawned many tropes that would be worse in the following decades like Hickman's X-Men making death pointless altogether.

>>150179571
The 2000s were WAY edgier.
The Crossed
Walking Dead
Nemesis and Kick Ass
Authority
Planetary

There were also good comics and Invincible is okay for the most part.
Geoff Johns GL run was awesome.
Morrison practically carried the 2000s

If anything I feel 2010s was especially hard with the big two being absorbed by two parent companies that raised prices, inserted heavy handed messages and whatever scraps of good writing you could get (Superior-Foes / Time Runs Out / All Star Section 8) were clearly overshadowed by the bad. Even the non woke comics like Death Knights Death Metal were a bore to read all the way through, despite Superboy Prime issue which was kino. I have nothing good to say about the current decade. 5 years in and I feel nothing.

>>150196014
>Too dumb to know anything about comics history
>gets assmad and brings up Miles Morales and cock out of nowhere

So you fake comics history because your head is filled with thoughts about Miles Morales and cock huh

>>150195622
>On the other hand... Did anything change really?
Yeah, lower sales.
Like way lower sales.

It is always funny that ugly broads and low test men push the message that "men are bad for ogling women" and every girl I know uses tight Yoga pants and I have seen Brazilian butts everywhere.

>>150196102
>90s Bad started with people like Linkara and company in the late 2000s

It started way earlier than that. Wizard was already taking jabs at 90s stuff during the 90s. Like the mid/late 90s was them taking jabs at Liefeld every other month for some reason (I figured Liefeld probably pissed someone there off). There was a tone along the comics communities of the early 00s that 90s Bad, and it was usually either coming from people who were tired of the 90s or from people entering comics through Bendis, Millar, and Ellis comics or something that looked down on comics of the past

It's just that Linkara reached a sizable audience back then that got their comics knowledge from watching his videos and copying what he claimed. And Linkara likely got his views of 90s from Scans Daily's snarkers

>>150179489 (OP)
the comics became like 90% words that covered up art that somehow looked like worse than it did in the 60s all just to say fucking nothing of note or worth to pad out books because the stories and action in them was mediocre and substituted by lite porn.

I unironically think comics fell off a cliff during the 90s compared to the 60s 70s 80s and 2000s

>>150196369
>I unironically think comics fell off a cliff during the 90s compared to the 60s 70s 80s and 2000s
If you're only looking at capeshit (especially Marvel and Image in the 90's), sure. Thankfully the medium is more than a handful of companies making narrowly focused genre pap. Alternative comics really hit their stride in the 90's, Dark Horse had their incredibly strong creator-owned imprint Maverick (which published Sin City, Hellboy, Madman, etc) and DC had alternative imprints like Paradox Press and Piranha Press releasing great books during that time as well.

>>150196369
>the comics became like 90% words that covered up art that somehow looked like worse than it did in the 60s all just to say fucking nothing of note or worth to pad out books because the stories and action in them was mediocre and substituted by lite porn.
You're describing the 2000s, which are way worse than the 90s.

It's a mixed bag with some real stinkers, but from what I've read so far the 90s was better than most things that followed it in the 2000s
At least on Marvel's side

>>150179489 (OP)
Depends on the super hero. Made for horny works for villains and such. Fo sure that was just dumb. But for the femme fattle, just perfect.

>>150196102
>Geoff Johns GL run was awesome.
That's correct
>Morrison practically carried the 2000s
Oh he's responsible for a few comics being 2000s, yeah. And That Is NOT A Good thing. You can mostly trace X-Men going to total shit back to his run.

>>150196766
I'm primarily a Marvel reader, but that was the case for DC too. Marvel started doing really retarded shit in the 2000s, and DC kept trying to one-up them.

>>150188268
French literature. And Russian, especially Dostoevsky.

>>150196949
You don't read them poser.

>>150196949
You don't sound like a Francois Villon kinda guy, anon. No offense.

>>150196930
Marvels hurts a lot because they went through something of a renaissance during the Heroes Return stuff then pulled a hard 180 into 2000s edge

>>150184409
He thinks manga is only battle shounen

>>150195763
There are lots of other women in Savage Dragon and not all of them are there to give Dragon depth, or at least not any more than most of the male side characters. The death of Frank’s cousin drives the plot every bit as much as Debbie’s murder. It’s what gets Dragon to join the police force which is central to the comic until around issue 40 and then on and off again until Dragon dies.
Things happen to characters and those things drive the plot. That’s pretty much how fiction works.

>>150197126
I still don't understand.

>>150192813
There are older guys who are still mad about the Image exodus. It’s not that surprising, really, considering how long Marvel fans stayed mad at Kirby for going to DC. I don’t know that Marvel fans are that way now, if only because they’ve shed so much of their traditional audience in the last decade.

>>150196369
>I unironically think comics fell off a cliff during the 90s compared to the 60s 70s 80s and 2000s
Julius Corentin Acquefacques was published during the 90s, the Metabarons series started in '92, De cape et de crocs in '95, Kid Paddle in '93, which was also when It Was the War of the Trenches hit the market, Lanfeust of Troy in '94...

>>150196154
Self control, man. Self control.
There's a difference between a man who can appreciate those curves from afar while treating the woman like a decent human being when engaging with her and looking like fucking Bueno Excellante whenever you see the mere hint of ass.

>>150195987
Sequential art doesn't stop being sequential art when you change the direction you read the page, dumbass. Stop with this weeb vs dweeb shit and enjoy the medium.

>>150188716
Timely was barely worth noticing during the 50s and DC was literally second on the Senate Hearings hit-list after EC.

Marvel got to do Conan as a regular comic book because the Code's restrictions had been majorly loosened by 1970. Literally a year after Conan #1, Marvel and DC did their famous drug stories in Spider-Man and GA/GL. Conan's gorier, hornier stuff was in Savage Sword anyway, so it didn't have to deal with the Code.

>>150196102
>I have nothing good to say about the current decade
Ewing Hulk? Zdarsky Daredevil? Nu Ultimate Spider-Man? Wasn't there a 2020s Flash run a few years ago that /co/ praised?

>>150196154
Ok Paco

>>150198039
/co/ likes comics about as much as /v/ likes video games. You can go back in the archives and see that literally one of two things was enough for /co/ to claim that a series was ruined forever. Like how Immortal Hulk was instantly worthless because of a page where Hulk says he gets the anger of a black lady venting about how white rich dudes can nearly blow up the planet every summer (The Avengers and most of their villains have always been predominately rich white guys if they aren't aliens) nearly consequence free but she would get a bullet put in her brain for being 1/100th as destructive.

>>150198128
Ewing is one of Marvel's better writers, but these political signaling tangents he goes on are insufferable.
It was great seeing him disown Joe Bennett after they found out about his political cartoons.

>>150198267
Eh. I saw it less as political signalling about more someone basically running down Hulk's entire premise from a different lens. He agreed because he's effectively in that position: The Avengers can blow up New York City once every 6 months and still be hailed as the World's Greatest Heroes, but if he smashes a building trying to stop some unholy science monster? The government will send out the Army to try to kill him. World War Hulk was basically predicated on the idea that literally no-one would have punished the Illuminati for what they did.

>>150198332
You misremember the scene, she complains that Hulk has it easy compared to her and black people in general, that the world bends over backwards to accommodate his white rage.

>>150198381
But Hulk 100% knows that he DOESN'T have it easy; hence why he gets her anger. From a Marvel Civvie's perspective, the Hulk seems like he can just do whatever he wants consequence free, just like the rest of the superheroes. Meanwhile, the reader knows that's bullshit; he's been on the collective superhero shitlist since the 90s.

>>150179512
>Superhero comics were never good.
This no matter the decade 99% of capeshit comics are garbage

>>150198430
He likes that she wants to be mad, but her words are still utter nonsense and Ewing doesn't believe they are.

It was the decade that had superheroines become pregnant and give birth to a child that rapidgrows for some evil reason. That shit happened like 3 times at least.

>>150198508
Stfu fag

>>150190244
I disagree, it was a time that bought a lot of art with a lot of personality and cool style. Sure it could be wonky at times, but I prefer it to the milquetoast art of the 50's-80's. Not everyone was a Jack Kirby or Neal Adams or Jim Steranko- a lot of that era is just boring.

>>150198611
Carol's rapid baby was 80s.
I know about PeeG and Equinox. Who's the other one?

>>150196918
X-Men was never good.

>>150198952
Wrong

>>150198815
Maybe Gwen's kids, but that was 2000s.

>>150197867
I read both but we have two separate boards on that particular delineation for a reason

>>150199070
The reason is because this site was originally made for weebs from Something Awful and only added /co/ later to appease the people who kept posting comic book pages on /b/.

>>150198039
>Wasn't there a 2020s Flash run a few years ago that /co/ praised?
Not him but I remember an issue of... was it Death Metal? which was literally a middle finger to Batman Who Laughs which got praised here, I even get it mixed with the Superboy Prime >>150196102 mentioned.

Also
>ewing Hulk
That was really overrated at the time, the whole DEEPEST LORE bullshit alone would be enough to kill any praise.
Not to mention when he started getting really woke with the "how do you do my fellow dick jugglers" run in GotG, that would be enough for /co/ to turn on him.

>>150198267
It's fantastic because it wasn't even "cartoons", it was one political drawing. And ewing probably never bothered learning the context of it, or why the political candidate got so much praise (before geting elected and shitting everything up, anyway).

>>150198952
I specifically said "going to TOTAL shit" because, among other things, I fully expected one of the
>X-Men was never good.
kids.

>>150198645
>Not everyone was a Jack Kirby or Neal Adams or Jim Steranko
Or Steve Ditko, or Wally Wood, or John Buscema, or Gene Colan, or Walt Simonson, or P. Craig Russell, or Bill Sienkiewicz, or etc.

>>150198815
My bad swore Carols was 90s too

>>150200134
Damn, >>150198952 got btfo again

>>150200106
>That was really overrated at the time
Nah it was good and is still good. The "hulk lore" has nothing to do with it. Ewing is just an accomplished writer and told a good story using the Hulk.

>>150188871
Johnny is viewed by editorial in exactly the same way as Spider-Man, just in a more subdued fashion. He will never be permitted to get back with Lyja in any serious, longterm way even though she's far and away his best love interest.

People used to joke about the 90s but back then it almost came off like an inside joke. Not always done in good nature but something that the fans did among themselves and somewhat exaggerated. Then like most things go this was latched onto by people looking to get fame or fit in and they over exaggerated the exaggeration even further. The 90s having a lot of dumb comics became the 90s only had dumb comics LOL AREN'T WE FUNNY! WE SPEAK FOR YOU!

>>150201014
I feel like Johnny suffers more the same problem Iceman had. Well before the gay thing. He was the "kid" of the group so every so often he gets wiped clean and suddenly needs to learn how to grow up again. Never mind the fact that he was married and grown up for a very long time.

>>150188871
Lyja's nice, I would like to see her again, but part of me kind of wants to see Jonny back with Crystal. Let them finally make it work again and have Johnny be the cool step dad.

>>150201080
I'd rather have Crystal back with Pietro. If we can ever, ever fix him. Honestly, I'd like an industry-wide initiative to put every classic couple back together. In so many cases these relationships are central elements of these characters. If you can't write these relationships maybe you shouldn't be writing these characters to begin with.

90s extreme art destroyed competent comic art

>>150201175
Are you going to elaborate on your claim?

DC was good. It's just marvel that fucked up. But sadly DC and Marvel are more symbiotically related than most people realize.

>>150196154
Comics have been on a death spiral since the 70's when Marvel, lead by Shooter, pushed hard for the direct market. The speculation bubble finally broke that in the 90's and since then they keep struggling.

>>150201221
No

>>150199127
4Chan wasn’t for weebs

>>150201175
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the McFarlane/Liefeld/Lee-era only lasted for a few years in the early 90s and after that, the new crop of artists went with a cartoonier manga-influenced style.

>>150201398
>4Chan wasn’t for weebs
LOl newfag. This place invented weeb.

>>150200917
He just made up a whole bullshit and changed an existing character to fit the idea, that's no different from bendis and the like. The best writing in that run was the "This will be my last post on /co/ copypasta.

>>150201259
>DC was good.
Ehhh wasn't Emerald Twilight in like '90 or something?

>>150201398
>4chan was not for weebs
>Is literally responding to a post that shows a time when, out of the 20 boards on the website, only 9 WEREN'T entirely weeb-focused.
>And 4 of those are new at the time of the screenshot

>>150201931
Did he? What did he change besides OBAMA inclusion to explain the mystic side Hes had for years ?

>>150202025
>Obama
Most hilarious autocorrect
One Below all

>>150201960
What's wrong with Emerald Twilight? The Green Lantern Corp was way too 60s in concept and needed pruning. They even purposely made Hal older than The Trinity to emphasize that he was outdated and needed a revamp.

>>150202033
Pictured: The One Below All's True Form

>>150201960
There was a point in the mid-90s where they sucked, yes, after Giordano stepped down and before Carlin stepped up when it was just Kahn and Levitz running the show.
>>150202043
Emerald Twilight was an awful story plotted by editorial at the last minute that contradicted the set-up from the previous issues. The editor who complained that Hal had become too old and lame was the same guy who agreed to have him aged up in the first place. They could have just not done that to begin with.

>>150201522
>the new crop of artists went with a cartoonier manga-influenced style.
I think they were just as influenced by Michael Golden and Art Adams along with manga, but I think that "manga influenced" was more specifically an influence from the Capcom design team artists like AKIMAN and Bengus. Regardless, the era when artists like Ed McGuinness, Mike Wieringo (RIP), Joe Mad, Chris Bachalo etc. were doing superhero books was peak.

>>150201522
Damn, I must be old, because I've never in my life heard someone refer to manga as having a "cartoonier" aesthetic to cape books.

>>150202092
I loved bachalo Gen X. I loved Gen X. God I miss that book. Only time Emma was good.

>>150202139
It was though. For a while the in house style had a more pseudo realistic look compared to what Maduiera would be putting out. There's a huge difference between Joe Mad and John Byrne.

>>150202217
What's the recommended reading list for Generation-X? I've been interested in the books specifically for Bachalo's art, but don't know where to start. I'm into it for being a very 90's book by design.

>>150200134
>>150200846
I was always TOTAL shit.

>>150202262
Start at the Phalanx Covenant crossover event. The point of it was to introduce Generation-X. Then read Generation-X, Marvel's answer to Gen 13(originally titled Gen X.)

>>150198986
>>150200134
>>150200846
It was always TOTAL shit.

>>150202262
The whole thing was first set up during the Phalanx Covenant so you might want to check that out first and even then you'd only need the Unncanny and Adjectiveless X-men books. Then just start with issue one and go.

>>150202139
Boomer fans were saying that back in the 90s. And I don't mean the /tv/ definition of Boomer, I mean like actual Baby Boomer comic fans. And it usually wasn't actual manga they were referring to it was usually the manga-influenced style US comics were moving towards during the mid/late 90s

>>150179489 (OP)
Still better than the shit we get now

>>150202300
I accept your concession

>>150202326
Being a fan of anime back then and being a fan now are very different things

>>150202139
In the 70 and 80s Marvel's house style was Buscema and DC in the 80s-early 90s had Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez as the standard, and they weren't anywhere near as cartoony as the mid/late 90s art at both. Then Bryan Hitch in the late 90s made everyone want to go for a more pseudo-realistic style for the 00s.

>>150195947
i got you, anon. there's way more than this like Transmetropolitan, Top 10, and a lot of other good shit

>>150202351
Anime wasn't as completely poisoned by trying to look like a DBZ-knockoff #8203458234 or big eyed masturbatory sluts in frilly clothes back then. There was actual variety.

>>150202357
Nice.
>Transmetropolitan, Top 10
I see these more as 2000s comics.

>>150202262
in the 90s marvel did a "minus one issue" or issue negative one. when dark beast escaped the Age of Apocalypse it was years in the past, and he ended up in the Morlock tunnels and met emma frost there. he probably groomed her to be evil and a social darwinist. it would explain why she would have jumped from morlock lumpenproletariat to bourgeois hellfire club, and it would explain why she hates regular beast so much, despite the fact that he was the only one that actually WANTED to reassembled her after she was shattered. it would make sense for dark beast to be able to manipulate her because he was either resistant or had apocalypse/celestial tech that hid him from nate grey's psychic powers. he could also navigate better through norman osborn's mind in dark x-men. he could have put subliminal missions in her mind.

i don' think marvel has ever followed up on that

>>150202402
>more 2000s comics

yeah... i only mentioned them because of when they started

>>150202353
I think that has more to do with everyone being tired of house styles, desu. The indie scene at the time was going hog-wild with wild cartoon aesthetics, but cape comics were being seen as stiff and old fashioned by the public at large. Any Japanese influence had to just be coming from a couple of guys; no one in cape comics gave a shit about what other countries were doing.

>>150202423
>Any Japanese influence had to just be coming from a couple of guys; no one in cape comics gave a shit about what other countries were doing.
Frank Miller did. You can see Goseki Kojima's influence all over his Daredevil and Wolverine.

>>150195947
Yeah, this works.

Compared to the comics today, they are amazing.

>>150202423
This is a lot of the reason why I think even Liefeld got as popular as he did. We've all heard the jokes about his drawings but if was anything else it was certainly different.

>>150202504
Why the fuck is Juggernaut there

>>150202504

Damn.


So Red Skull was the good guy all along?

>>150179489 (OP)
The 90's were good
https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/profile/newwarriorstalk/lists/88775/the-1990s-were-good-actually

>>150202504
the stupid part is when trump doesn't leave office, the anti-gun libs won't do shit because they don't have guns. only real leftists will have the balls and testosterone and only if it's worth it. .... and lately women and gays have been insulting the MEN that would save them when they start bitching like damsels in distress

>>150202533
Trying to broad stroke an entire generation is always going to be retarded. Yes in the 10 year time period I'm sure quite a few bad comics and practices came out. Every decade is going to have shit but it stands out with the 90s because everyone has gone out of the way to find every bid of bad comic there was. Give someone the right motivation and we can be all saying the same about the 80s and downward

>make a comic focused on Hispanic heroes
>lecture Spanish speakers their language is sexist and trans phobic
and you wonder why sales are in the toilet compared to the 90s?

>>150202519

I don’t think that’s the actual Juggernaut (ya know the one people actually like)

Probably just some faggot “mantle” character using the same name.

Even the early 00s had better Hispanic reresentation. Even my Hispanic roommate who was more into manga picked up the original Araña.

>>150188232
Do you think McDonald's is the peak of cuisine or something? The majority can be and has been wrong

>>150202472
>Goseki Kojima
I would not consider his work to be "cartoonier" than anything Buscema was doing.

remember POGs?

Why doesn’t Sue love me? I love her

>>150202581
They're back. in Alf form.

>>150202553
>>150202566
hispanic spider man 2099's costume is in the top three spider-man costumes in history (the others are the symbiote costume and kaine) but didn't they make the 2099 who was hispanic a villain?

>>150202566
Remember when Spider-Man 2099 could just name their future Spider-Man "Miguel O'Hara" and nobody gave a fuck?

>>150202504
>literally all the gayest shit is confined to a single annual instead of being the main plots of all the series they're tied into
>still mad about it

>>150187948
scummy jewish marketing tactics against young vulnerable minds

>>150182904
>>pad's supergirl
I'm fond of the Matrix Supergirl, but her standalone was a goddamn mess.

>>150202581
holy shit
yeah

i remember kids being jealous of each others slammers. say that out loud today and zoomers will start clutching pearls. i hate those pogs with my slammer so fucking hard her stack flipped

>>150202604

The gay stuff even existing is the main problem.

That and it genuinely feels like characters aren’t allowed to be straight anymore

>>150202620
*hit those pogs*
slam those pogs

>>150202553
Quite literally leftist racism.

>>150202632
Blame Quesada. He's the one who literally killed the sales of the company's cash cow to keep him an unhappy bachelor.

>>150202581
Remember Marvel Trading Cards?

>>150202658
I remember those very fondly. I had all the sets up until like 95.

>>150202379
There was an Interview with Alex Ross regarding his Gatchaman stuff that's somewhat interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhGYL0xlrM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOjNhj0L4OE

>>150202656
you're talking about liberals. liberals are not leftists.

>>150202658
have some from 92 i think, and some of the "fleer ultras". i eventually bought the whole metal collection. looking to go to the flea market soon and maybe even buy some overpower cards still in their packaging. got some dbz game card packs last week

>>150202139
That image has detailed painting textures but the proportions are definitely pretty cartoony.

>>150202262
Leave when Lobdell leaves. Under normal circumstances, Larry Hama taking over a book would be a good thing, but Gen X kinda nosedives once he starts writing.

>>150202931
Just looked it up, Lobdell wrote #1-28, good to know, thanks.

>>150203028
I mostly still liked it.

>>150202553
Why would you lie in a funny book?

>>150202931
Yeah, and in Bachalo's last few issues he decided to get really weird with his style and made everyone look like a little kid/overgrown baby. I'm glad he grew past that quickly enough.

>>150202931
Does Lobdell cleanly leave at the end of a story arc, or did he quit halfway through and Hama had to pick up the pieces? If Generation X #28 is a clean break at the end of a story, I'll stop reading there.

>>150203108
There was a period of time there where Chris was getting really experimental with his art and it kinda ruined everything I liked about him.

>>150203134
There's some Operation Zero Tolerance loose ends that Robinson wrapped up, then Tom DeFalco delivered an inventory issue, then Hama's run started proper. You can call it a day after DeFalco.

Because the internet didn't exist.

>>150203471
we really were better off when every asshole couldn't shout his opinion to the masses

>>150201014
Damn, I really loved the miniserie Fantastic Five where Johnny was married with Lyja and they had a kid.

>>150201080
The Truth Is I like Crystal too. I would like her too as Johnny partner. The dinamic with step dad Johnny would be cool with him learning how to do the role from Ben and Reed.

One thing about the 90s is that for all their XTREMENESS they were always at least TRYING to be cool. They were still being made by people who liked comics. Crap now all feels like streaming service pitches by hacks who hate the medium.

>>150203594
NTA, but Crystal belongs with Johnny.

>>150186461
That's not even remotely similar and you know it.

>>150203629
>Crap now all feels like streaming service pitches by hacks who hate the medium.
Todd McFarlane addressed this in a recent interview:
https://youtube.com/shorts/jJjtCak-RqM?si=98buaKfRS_jnBGAr

>>150187948
>have an effective monopoly on publishing
>get mogged by manga the minute it becomes widely available

>>150202570
>Muh food analogy

>>150179489 (OP)
We're at the point zoomers think a woman in a bikini is a weird fetish.

>>150202769
Same shit, no excuses.

>>150204606
Most of it is clearly performative but that makes it even more insane to me.

I always thought the TCJ issue responding to Image was an interesting little time capsule.
https://youtu.be/aYQOSEzw5Wo?si=zJDAnqnjIeC6rM5X&t=7873

>>150204631
Too bad brown people ruined toy photography of all things and cant take a picture without holding it up with their fucking hands so I cant nut to this

>>150204727
It just goes on and on and on like this...

>>150204666
That's also the algorithms promoting anything that has a visible human element. It's why youtube videos are full of people making extreme reactions in the thumbnails and showing their faces instead of relevant material.
Social media is a curated zoo and part of that is shoving content that's meant to feel like it's someone in person talking to you or showing you something, and that's part of why low effort pics take off.

>>150204740
>Triggered
How did this generation become such a pack of pussies

>>150203471
There was an internet in the 90s and multiple comic newsgroups and forums.

>>150204517
Food analogies are the McDonalds slop of analogies

>>150204871
Yes, but it was populated mostly by tech nerds and not reduced down to four websites you access on your phone that demand strict moderation against anything that goes against the brand or safe think

>>150202513
Different will only get you so far though, there's a reason his sales fell off hard after the 90s.

>>150204820
>and that's part of why low effort pics take off.

That's what kills me this custom is actually high effort.

>>150204878
Ironic

>>150204631
Honestly a bikini would be better than that trash. Too many random strips of clothing, it's like an infinitely worse version of Psylocke's outfit.

>>150204896
What the genuine fuck are you talking about?

>>150205047
The internet in the 90s was different than the internet today. For one people had reading comprehension.

>>150205145
Are you currently on one of the "four websites you access on your phone that demand strict moderation against anything that goes against the brand or safe think"?

If not, then what the genuine fuck are you talking about? There were usenet group just as, if not more spiteful than /co/ has ever been. People used to actually mail in death-threats to publishers back in the day and try to assault creators they hated at conventions. If you step outside the *chan bubble, you'd know that forums like that still exist.

>>150196196
>Like the mid/late 90s was them taking jabs at Liefeld every other month for some reason (I figured Liefeld probably pissed someone there off).
IIRC the guy in charge of Wizard fell out with Liefeld over something and the magazine suddenly did a 180 from shilling him to mocking him.

There was also Marvel editorial hiring Waid & Garney to take over Captain America's book as one of various stunts on the Avengers and FF books to try and boost sales enough to convince the company's execs to pull out of the Heroes Reborn negotiations with Liefeld and Lee. Wizard LOVED the Waid/Garney Cap so much that after Heroes Reborn was announced, they spearheaded a campaign to keep them on the book, which was literally impossible for Marvel to actually do without breaking the contracts they'd made with Liefeld and Lee.

>>150197432
Supposedly there are Marvel employees who weren't even born when Image was founded, but have been indoctrinated to see the guys who started Image as "traitors" for leaving Marvel, where they were only freelance artists, never full employees.

>>150204204
>not removing the Google Tracker shit at the end of your link

That being said, he's absolutely right. So many people are just sticking to a single TPB's worth of content hoping to make it big instead of actually creating what they want to create. Part of me wants to blame the failure of webcomics to translate into multimedia franchises, but I know another big part of it is the corpo-cycle of "What's new twist on something already established that we can milk until everyone hates that and we go back to basics?"

>>150205325
Wizard was a rag. They were hyping Bendis shit up and down.

>>150202423
>Any Japanese influence had to just be coming from a couple of guys; no one in cape comics gave a shit about what other countries were doing.

It was way more than "a couple of guys" and it was already starting as far back as the 80s at a minimum. You have got to be deluding yourself if you think no one in cape comics paid attention to anything from outside the US at the time. The late 80s/early 90s was when Marvel was publishing Akira and Moebius stuff under the Epic banner, and that's not getting into other US publishers in the 80s who were publishing translations of comics and manga made outside the US

>>150204606
You claim they're zoomers but I see no evidence that they're not sockpuppet accounts

>>150205440
For better or worse, Wizard played as much a part in shaping fan opinions in the 90s as Comics Youtubers do today, because there are always going to be NPCs who want to be fed someone else's opinion on things. Wizard did put attention on some lesser-known and under-appreciated books that deserved it, and most of their writers seemed to love 80s Marvel and DC a lot more than 90s and 2000s Big 2, but they also frequently shilled a lot of trash, or complained about books for stupid reasons. A perfect example is the Clone Saga. A lot of people hated it for valid reasons, but Wizard were complaining about it before it even started.

>>150204204
It does seem awfully short sighted. You do six issues you do a dozen and you're not really left with a lot of story or character. Especially with the way comics are written now. Up before the 2000s a dozen issues might have more weight behind them, more content but now you're barely getting your pieces set up. It's nothing. Writers can't tell an origin in one comic anymore and then give us 11 more of them fighting new badguys. Like by issue 12 ASM had given us the follow

Spider-man's origin
Aunt May
Uncle Ben
The Daily Bugle
JJ
Liz Allen
Vulture
Flash Thompson
Doc Ock
Sandman
Lizard
Betty Brant
Electro
And a whole bunch of other shit I'm too lazy to type.

>>150205325
>Supposedly there are Marvel employees who weren't even born when Image was founded, but have been indoctrinated to see the guys who started Image as "traitors" for leaving Marvel, where they were only freelance artists, never full employees.
McFarlane was an asshole about it.

>>150205635
>They don't pay us
>What about all that pay
>Doesn't count

>>150205635
>McFarlane was an asshole about it.
He and Larsen did seem to be the two that were really unhappy with their situation at Marvel and picked fights with people afterwards, some of the other guys had originally hoped they could stay involved with the Marvel books they'd been working on. But it's decades ago now, and all of them except Todd had since mended bridges with Marvel and worked there again, there's no reason for there to be some institutional loathing of them within Marvel that's spanned generations of employees.

>>150205692
His piece of the pie wasn't big enough for his liking. I get wanting to strike out on your own to make even more money, but he didn't have to be so spiteful about it.

>>150205692
Now say that about all the other writers and artists Marvel has fucked over throughout the years

>>150205187
>If you step outside the *chan bubble, you'd know that forums like that still exist.

Where? Not that guy but I'm 35 and dont know how to find good websites anymore and so I only stick to 4chan and I hate it.

>>150205776
I don't disagree with the notion that the creatives were treated badly, but Todd wasn't one of the ones who was. Especially with how he would later go on to run image.

>>150205635
>>150205757
Can't recall if I've seen this before, but this is enlightening all around. Todd is clearly pissed off about a nebulous feeling of not being "appreciated." He goes on about slave wages, but based on this it mostly feels like him emotionally flailing for something to use that will get across the "injustice" he feels is happening. Meanwhile, Terry is trying to be agreeable, but he also can't seem to understand Todd's, admittedly not explicitly explained, problem. All he can't point to is what feels like the justified material pay for him, and then latched onto the idea of "watch" because it'd be an easy solution if it was true.

But it's not about the material compensation, it's about Todd not feeling like the corporation is appreciating the work and effort he is pouring into their product. It may not be a problem Marvel can actually solve for him in any reasonable way, either. Sometimes there's genuinely nothing you can do to make someone feel better, even if they think you can. But it's also not hard to be sympathetic to Todd when, in general, corporations have completely abandoned any real pretense to "appreciating" their workers in the years sense this conversation. Even in the basic pay sometimes.

>>150206039
Wasn't one of Todd's issues about how Marvel were using his artwork for merch that artists didn't get any royalties from?

It's possible for him to have a lot of good points and still be getting treated better than Marvel treated the average artist who worked for them. It's also possible for a person to be broadly in the right about something and come across as a dick at the same time.

We also maybe shouldn't treat a script written as a pitch for a show or movie about Image as the exact word for word truth of what happened, a dramatization would add more drama.

>>150205776
>compare that to the tribute DC gave Neal Adams

>>150202404
>i don' think marvel has ever followed up on that
Good, because it sounds stupid.

>>150206163
>>150206145
That's a nicer sentiment but I wonder how much his family got. Honestly I'm pretty sickened how Marvel reprinted a bunch of PADs books and somehow he still died a pointless death.

>>150206565
>That's a nicer sentiment but I wonder how much his family got.
Neal was very open about the residual checks he got from DC/Warner Bros for Ra's Al Ghul, and very open about never getting any from Marvel. Also notice his son Josh Adams drew that tribute, I don't think he would've drawn it if he felt his dad and family were getting a raw deal.

It's not a secret that DC takes better care of their creators than Marvel. They get paid better, receive royalties, get creator pay through the new Vertigo initiative. They basically took care of Frank Miller's medical expenses through the later Dark Knight books they slapped his name on just so he could be taken care of.

>>150206620
>Also notice his son Josh Adams drew that tribute, I don't think he would've drawn it if he felt his dad and family were getting a raw deal.
Oh well that's nice then.

>>150186663
Nobody lied at all, faggot.

>>150187561
No way is Ultimatum better than Identity Crisis.

>>150187411
nothing in your post is true

>>150186504
>the 90s was a time when there was a high concentration of Boomers in the fanbase, the comics press

This is objectively false.

>>150187591
The best of it was better than the typical XTREME! trash that CAUSED the crash in the first place.

>>150182904
There's at least a couple outright terrible comics on there.

But the point is that you're ignoring that XTREME! Image wannabe trash was the vast majority of the industry during the decade. It was objectively an awful time for comics and /co/ needs to stop apologizing for it.

>>150207072
The crash didn't happen because of XTREME it happened because of a lot of behind the scenes decisions that put the company in debt. They could have survived the speculator crash if not for them.

>>150207099
>But the point is that you're ignoring that XTREME!
The point is that he CAN ignore them, chucklenuts. That not every comic fit that mold. And that there were good comics. Of course you're gonna have a different answer if you ignore the bad ones.

>>150207110
delusional nonsense

>>150207124
If you go by the same logic then the 2000s must have been a pretty great decade for comics, too. Except we KNOW that isn't true. So your whole argument falls apart.

>>150206620
Interesting considering if people know anything about how DC treats its creators, its Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (and I guess maybe John Higgins? but who gives a shit about colorists) and their Watchmen beef.

>>150207036
I guess it's technically "better" in that it took place in an AU, though it's by far the AU with the biggest relevance until the MCU, rather than Identity Crisis fucking the main continuity for what feels like decades by this point.

>>150206053
I'm pretty sure this is a script that Liefeld wrote for a movie about the Image founding

>>150207099
>you're ignoring that XTREME! Image wannabe trash was the vast majority of the industry during the decade
That's an over exaggeration. The extreme era was dying by 96, heroes reborn is the last desperate gasp of it. and even then DC largely avoided the Image wannabe stuff and other companies like Dark Horse never really touched it either.

>>150207181
Here's RETURN was a better return to form than we could have asked for.

>>150207072
The crash has been extensively documented. No one on the planet except you thinks it was caused by any stylistic decisions. It happened because a bunch of retards thought they'd buy a house and put their kids through college by buying a limited edition holographic foil cover issue one of Fight-Guy and the industry encouraging that delusion without any thought as to what would happen when the retards realized they weren't going to get rich off collecting comics.

>>150196949
Sure but not a single comic?

>>150207211
No it happened because of bunch of retards thought they'd buy a toy and trading card company and then when sales went back to normal they couldn't afford their loans.

>>150207153
Because DC took advantage of a loophole as a way to avoid honouring their contract. Also in the case of Moore, he was very close to fix his relationship with DC in 2000 when DC bought Wildstorm. They give him the word of not interfering with his job and even created a imprint (Firewall) so his checks weren't signed by DC. Then Paul Levitz again meddle with his work on Tomorrow Stories and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and that was the thing that finally pissed Moore to go scorch earth.

>>150207150
Your argument falls apart because 90s stopped being XTREME by the mid-90s while 00s remained Edgelord throughout the decade

>>150207444
>90s stopped being XTREME by the mid-90s

That's not really true. There were traces of that througout the decade and it only really begins to move away from it around 1998.

>>150207246
Well...I mean, it's made by a French guy and it is literature, so...

>>150207181
>The extreme era was dying by 96
>DC largely avoided the Image wannabe stuff

Neither of these statements is true.

>>150207190
Heroes Return SUCKED. The books were mediocre as fucking shit, excluding only Avengers.

>>150207211
>>150207348
You are both retarded.

>>150207558
I liked Claremont's Fantastic Four

>>150207487
Only Cable and Deadpool really and the former mellowed out completely

>>150207582
I always thought Pachecko was pretty underrated

>>150180294
I can tell you're retarded because Marvel wasn't that prominent during the silver age

>Manga, same fucking thing
I don't think you know this but not every manga is isekai or some harem fantasy

>>150207540
Ok name popular extreme comics made after 1996 that isn't Heroes Reborn. And even then calling Heroes Reborn "extreme" is charitable because it's not even as extreme as early 90s comics.

>>150207129
>>150207569
>no counter-argument to facts other than name-calling

I accept your concession again

>>150207868
XTREME was always shallow marketing buzz anyways

>>150207754
>Marvel wasn't that prominent during the silver age

This is complete nonsense. They were huge during the 60s. It was the 50s when they were irrelevant.

>>150209200
Imagine saying Marvel wasn't big during the era fucking SPIDER-MAN started running.

>>150207754
sure, but every manga is shit

>>150179489 (OP)
As an actual fact, the comcis had a decline on quality since the end of thr 80's and the 90's practically killed the industry. So the anwer is yes.
Spiderman is the main example of bad quality since the 90's

>>150207881
You can bring up as many well-documented facts about why the crash happened and why Marvel's bankruptcy happened, but a lot of people who really really hate 1990s comics just aren't going to listen. In their minds everything in the 1990s was EXTREME, 100% of it sucked, 100% of readers hated it, and just stopped buying. No amount of facts are ever going to educate them out of this belief, because it's like blind faith to them, and the crash happening when it did, Marvel's bankruptcy happening when it did both fuel their conviction that they're right, and they can blame the "bad comics", "bad stories" and "bad artists" they don't like for everything that went wrong in the industry.

>>150180294
>modern Super hero comics being full of preachy bullshit doesn't make guys running around in tights fighting bad guys in tights any less stupid.

The logical conclusion of all this is to pick up a non-fiction book and disregard comics and cartoons entirely

>>150179512
fpbp

>>150210353
Don't fpbp your own post

>>150202581
Ooooh! Are they back in Liefeld form?

>>150204820
Oh, so that's why it's so hard to find a trailer with a simple search, rather than a bunch of retarded reaction videos.

>>150207169
Isn't it literally 2 decades already?

>>150205968
The old fashioned way. No hand-holding and nothing but pure exploration.
That's why they're so hard to find; modern google will keep redirecting you to the big players, so you've got to genuinely get past page 20 before real, homegrown stuff starts popping up. You've got to put in the actual grunt work and forum hop until you find a place. You're going to have to go on page 8 of Yandex and DuckDuck Go to sniff places out. Figure out who's posting stuff on readallcomics and The Internet Archive, then dig through their wordpress accounts until you find a link.

>>150207497
Fair enough, I'll check it out.

>>150195703
Kill yourself (((Gail))) you fat tranny faggot.

>>150197271
Most "Comics are more than just cape shit, but manga's all the same shit" people typically have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to comparing comics and manga. Nothing about what he said about cape comics applies in the slightest to manga. There is no equivalent to the Comics Code in Japan, there is no megacorp narrative being forced onto manga, and there's certainly no modern-day "woke moralizing" that makes one yearn for the days of... Doraemon and Astro Boy?

>>150195622
what is this annoying feminist bullshit of a post lol

>>150211288
>do all this
>find a forum with 3 regular posters and 5 posts a week
>they have no idea why you’re there

>>150211288
I hate the modern internet sometimes. Nothing but bots and commercialized moderated slop.

>>150211288
I miss the days when you could browse for something. Now you type anything into a search bar and all you get is advertising, wikis, or in same cases a reddit link

>>150179489 (OP)
It was just full of retarded Silver Age-tier shockjockeying but because it was happening in a time when continuity was actually taken seriously, the retarded shock value moves all stayed canon for obscene amounts of time.

>>150179489 (OP)
invisimilk...

>>150179489 (OP)
Ignore Image and any comics by creators who started the company. Cheesecake 90s comics ruled.

>>150179489 (OP)
Do people even say all 90s comics were bad? People loved X-Men back then and I'm sure a lot of people have fond memories of it. There were a ton of great comics then, especially when you include stuff outside the big two. 90s also includes stuff like The Tick and The Maxx.

I think people mostly just poke fun at the popular trends of the 90s, rather than saying 90s comics were all bad.

>>150211977
And an AI "answer" you apparently can't turn off

>>150209200
>>150209398
Marvel had distribution issues throughout most of the 60s, those cleared up by the time the decade was nearly finished.

>>150213583
90s cheesecake is awful. Fake tits, chicken legs with no ass, pornstar faces.

>>150213838
Looking fine and shapely to me.

>>150211420
AKA the old days. If you spread the word from there, the numbers will increase.

>>150214507
going mainstream ruins any community

>>150214207
Because you're American, European art mogs trash like that.

>>150210307
Nta. You and others are the ones not listening. We were there and did not stop buying comics. Some of us stopped buying garbage comics prior to Marvel's 1996 bankruptcy. All the cash grab titles from various publishers were in fact the driving force behind the crash. The last Image title that I dropped was Spawn at 32 or 33 because the story was going nowhere and Capullo's nu-cartoony style mixed with Image's scratchiness looked like a bad parody. My brother being a huge Korn fan had the Follow the Leader shirt, so even I couldn't escape it, lmao. The hope and excitement quickly fizzled out as the Image founders were too blinded by their egos as they took us fans for granted. The Maxx, 1963, Spawn 8-10 stick out like sore thumbs. Rob still brags about the sales boost he gave New Mutants but he is oblivious to the female fans that bailed when he pushed Weezie off the title. Marvel would kill to have a secondary X title pulling in 90,000 today. Magister recently storytimed the Clone Saga but the gems were the interviews and commentaries that he also included. The crash wasn't a single event but something that played out through the mid 90s and yet being at the center of the crash, those same interviews further prove how greedy and indifferent Marvel was. Too many fans threw out the baby with the bathwater and did not bother checking out the quality comics. Check out the comments in any Cartoonist Kayfabe video covering 90s Xtreme to hear fans' own words. The Xtreme fad was a continuation of the grim and gritty trend that started in the later half of the 80s when creators only grasped the surface of the works of Miller, Moore and other talents. At least in my city, all the shops had their staff picks at the checkout counter but it's the old proverb about leading a horse to water.

What I wanna know is why romance and other female oriented comics died off? Why the 90's is so maligned today is because their strategy was to cater to a narrow demographic and it worked. Too well. Comics will always have that boy-only stigma around it as with many of the other mediums we enjoy.
Now they are targeting a narrow demographic today as well but it is only themselves and their shit taste.

>>150216272
Because superhero comics sold far more, and it made more business sense to cancel the lower selling comic to publish another much higher selling cape book. DC continued to publish romance comics into the 70s but they had so many in inventory at one point that they just stopped commissioning new work, and once they burned through them all, it as too much trouble to commission new issues.

>>150216433
Is it also because women like imagining stuff more? I heard that before and I think women don't like porn that much on average. And thus they buy romance novels to fill the niche that comics would fill normally?
Damn I fucking hate corporations just deciding to broaden everything in the hopes of making more money instead of just innovating on what they have.

>>150179489 (OP)
Some are good some suck ass like all media

>>150179512
They were always Jewish propaganda.

>>150217066
Stfu tranny

>>150207497
I don't recognize this. Is it from Heavy Metal like Metabaron or Arawn?

>>150217066
>we wouldn't have most of the best superheroes if it weren't for jews
Jews are pretty cool and the messages in comics are usually good.

>>150217106
Neither of those.

>>150217123
Depends

>>150217106
It's from requiem vampire knight, #12 I believe.

>>150209853
>>150187075
>>150184409
Seethe & /co/pe
Fucking /co/cksuckers

>>150218830
Kys schizo

>>150218849
Don't respond to him. Delete your reply, please.

>>150217958
>>150217998
Ah, okay.

>>150213743
That chart shows massive and rapid growth during the 60s. It perfectly supports the posts you're replying to.

>>150213838
>Fake tits, chicken legs with no ass, pornstar faces.

geeIwonderwhocouldbebehindthispost.jpg

>>150216272
>their strategy was to cater to a narrow demographic and it worked

NOTHING "worked" in the 90s. THE FUCKING INDUSTRY CRASHED, YOU ABSOLUTE RETARD.

>>150216230
Trannyfag

>>150216256
>the interviews and commentaries

What interviews and commentaries? From where and when?

>>150210307
more delusional retardation

>>150222291
If nothing worked then that crash would be total and no comics would exist today. Nice going there using absolutist language there retard. Some things did work as evdienced by the humongous sales numbers and enthusiasm around the industry. It crashed because people realized the stories were suffering and the value of comics now were inflated and were not rare.
There are many things right and wrong with each era of comics. Also 90's comics had cool designs, hot women, and writing that could sometimes be heavily nuanced and subtle or be edgy nonsense. That's what you hate because so many other people have parroted your opinion and there are many pieces of truth to those claims but I fail to see as much enthusiasm about the 10's or 00's because those eras have many of the same problems with edginess and surface level storytelling. The 20's aren't done yet but they're just a continuination of the 10's. Maybe even worse.

>>150211288
This poster is actually knowledgeable. But the problem is mentioned here: >>150211420 The few remaining old fashioned forums have, in some extreme cases, like a post every couple months or less. There's no point in posting there.

>>150222496
Literally NOTHING in your post happened.

>>150222339
Trannies are largely an American phenomenon.

>>150223746
They're more common in thailand, latina america, and israel than anywhere else.

>>150223892
Those are shemales, and their meant for sex tourism.
American trannies just want to cause trouble.

>>150222905
Go cry into a hole about how your delusions don't get validated by everyone you meet.
>>150206133
I was reading Spider-Man Family Plot issue 2 and a kid's hat had a Spawn logo on it. Wonder if Joe Bennett got in trouble. Man continues to be based. Also the mom suddenly becomes super hot from issue 1. Pretty funny. And Spidey (Ben Reilly) does the web ball move from Marvel Super Heroes which just came out in the previous November in arcades.
But all that reminds me of how Todd clearly kinda sucks at writing and his taste in writing sometimes as evidenced by that script but he did absolutely know a lot about human nature, business, and the place comics had in general. Shrewd business man.

>>150179489 (OP)
yes

>>150205757
>>150205635
What is with all the "buds" and "pals"?

>>150179489 (OP)
Reed is so lucky

>>150222438
Storytime 258
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/148442825/#148442825
to 303 is the end I think
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/149085800/#149088527
And the archive list
https://pastebin.com/2ffVgjdD
Didn't read all the threads but it seemed like various sources from what I recall. Sorry about my lack of recollection on those details. I was more amazed by how the Spider office was juggling the whole affair and the audacity of keeping the convoluted thing going, especially given the circumstances of the time.

Let me just add that for those that were not collecting at the time and to those that were new to comics then, there is also the added dimension of one's perspective and personal bias. For comparison, the older readers in the letter columns seemed to really loathe the upstarts while they were at Marvel before forming Image. I stumbled into collecting via a friend in middle school who only knew so much about comics. Me and my friends in high school were indifferent to the crash, which is generally agreed to have started around Deathmate:Black September 1993(?). We were all over the place as far as individual tastes. Also the bad girl craze exploded within the timespan of the crash, as strange as that sounds. Despite the millions of comics sold, there weren't many of our peers that got the appeal of comics. It's odd how we could be so combative around other friends about other things, but we never argued about comics. We laughed and joked a ton as we were dying for high school to be over. Don't get lost in the details. Many of you complain about toons, comics and the state of this board. Look at /x/ as a comparison or rather don't. You guys are so much more down to earth. The world is in a huge state of flux. See what others don't and take chances on yourselves. Make the future that you want. Coming from /x/, some believe that "they" find interest in us, on this planet, because of our creativity.

>>150183141
Ben wants some pussy

>>150226969
Watch the Cartoonist Kayfabe interviews with Rob Liefeld to get your answer. Not being sarcastic when I say they are worth watching.

>>150225291
>their
Fuck. I concede.

>>150204614
not the same shit at all

>>150179489 (OP)
>Were 90s comics actually bad or is it revisionist history from sois mad it wasn't wholesome chungus and the women were heckin sexualised?
'90s comics were being bitched about as the '90s were happening and the criticism was that they were mostly pointless action books obsessed with big guns, gritted teeth, blood and pouches. Basically the Image founders' influence that ran up through around 1995 or so. If anyone bitched about the costumes women had, it was mostly as a symptom of everything else that was being bitched about i.e. that companies only wanted to put out stuff with bad art that appealed to troglodytes. There is SOME truth to criticisms because everyone is always going to be trend chasing although the things everyone bitched about were way, way worse in the 2000s with the Planetary/Authority influence.

The '90s are probably weaker overall than the '80s or '70s but IMO it's a better decade than the 2000s and sure as shit better than the 2010s and 2020s. Especially once you start getting to around 1997 or so and everyone's accepted the crash has happened and they need to rebuild. DC was willing to take more chances and I think Marvel was putting out mostly decent stuff too... on the Avengers and the more B-tier and below books. Uncanny/Adjectiveless and Spider-Man were mostly unmitigated shit.

>>150179512
>>150180294
Nobody but fart sniffers is ever going to read the shitty boring indieslop you've spent decades pushing, Groth.

>>150211288
I got lost and found out the Big O forums from 2001 are still up and found this ancient art of daria x big o

>>150228774
What about non-superhero action/adventure comics? Would you read that?

>>150188871
Slott permanently ruined Lyja so no dice.

>>150183787
>when a lot of it barely comes off as much more edgy than the worst 2000's stuff
The 2000s is everything people stereotype the '90s as with the exception that the guns aren't as big. Warren Ellis is the worst influence comics have ever had.

>>150184375
No, it's simply because thought balloons are seen as outdated and it's better/easier to just combine thought balloons and narration boxes into one thing. I personally hate it because I feel like it creates a disconnect between the character and their actions. The boxes are this thing floating outside of space, not connected at all to what's happening in the moment, thus it feels more like the character themselves is telling you the story of what happened after the fact. And I think that CAN work but only if the series is written in a way where that's entirely the point; Superior Foes for example where the series is explicitly a story that Boomerang is telling in a bar (and thus you also have to take into account how much of it is real and how much of it is fake, what's being embellished, etc.).

But the average comic? Narration and thoughts need to be separate. Thought balloons with separate narration give more of a sense that you're experiencing things as they happen, not after the fact, and thus the reader becomes more connected to and invested in what's going on because there's more immediacy to it.

>>150184375
This never occurred to me before, but holy shit you might be onto something.

>>150216272
>What I wanna know is why romance and other female oriented comics died off?
Last time this got talked about here, someone claimed it was a publishing industry move in the 60s, that it was easier to get girls to read actual books than boys, so comics aimed at girls were killed off to push them towards books which would make the publishers more money.

And also like >>150216433 is saying, for DC and Marvel, it was superhero comics that were their successful books, so other genres they published gradually got neglected or entirely dropped.

>>150228826
Not enough attention is given to how kids and teens used to be the core audience for comics, but that hasn't really been a thing since the second half of the 1990s. Marvel and DC's reaction to the crash was to move towards an older demographic of lifelong readers with more disposable income, and the 2000s is when Marvel and DC leave the CCA, and abandon any pretence that kids were reading. The writers went full edgelord in ways writers wouldn't have even dreamed of back in the 90s, and editorial had been completely de-balled by the 2000s, so couldn't stop them even if they wanted to.

The early 90s extreme era was the last generation with a real influx of kids and teens reading comics, and more than anything else, not having constant new generations of readers is what's eventually going to kill the industry.

>>150210574
Looks more like Capullo X-Force art than Liefeld thoughever.

>>150207558
>Heroes Return SUCKED. The books were mediocre as fucking shit, excluding only Avengers.
Most of the Heroes Return books started off well, and if star artists made Heroes Reborn sell, the idea with Heroes Return seemed more to be star writers, though most of the books did have high-profile artists at least initially.

But Waid and Garney's return to Captain America wasn't as good as the original run, but went on twice as long, and Waid was doing the same insane threat escalation he'd been doing in Flash at the same time.

FF started well, but then Claremont took over and none of his work since he returned to Marvel was ever really that good.

Iron Man was a milquetoast run that got overrated just for being the first 'normal' Iron Man run in several years, and has TWO mystery box villains that were impossible for readers to work out.

Thor started well but also had mystery plots Jurgens seemed to be making up as he went along, and was only really worth reading when JR Jr was drawing, until it suddenly gets good years into the run when Thor becomes king.

Avengers is the one Heroes Return run people loved, and even there sales started slipping after Perez left, the star artist was a big draw for the book, and a lot of people overrate that Avengers run because they haven't read the earlier Bronze Age runs it's paying homage to.

>>150229582
Kirby Krackle Wonder Man is so goated.

>>150228826
>Warren Ellis is the worst influence comics have ever had.

This is nonsense. He wasn't even the worst influence of that time period.

It was Millar

>>150211408
I've met very few people with both a sizeable knowledge of both manga and comics, especially outside the mainstream of either. The sheer vastness of what kind of manga there is lost on people used to the American mainstream system.