Thread 2933760

does grounding really matter? it does really sound stupid and funny sticking a wire on a dirt.

nah

usually not, but it can prevent something worse from happening in case something bad happens

>>2933760 (OP)
Depends on what you are working with, but it's usually much worse to have no ground or bad ground. Also grounding and true earth ground are not the same thing.

>>2933760 (OP)

Never skimp out on 1/3 of the Electric Code

I enjoy the feeling of vacuuming without a working ground plug

>>2933760 (OP)
Bonding: extremely important.
Grounding: also not a bad idea.

Bonding keeps touch potential during a fault down below lethal levels.

>>2933760 (OP)
Its good if your wiring is done by a retard and the wires are damaged. With no ground and damaged wires you can have metal things electrified and get zapped if you touch it if its metal. Like those Indians getting killed by opening a fridge.

But if your wiring is in good shape and done safe, you wont know the difference if its not grounded or not. Old houses just had knob and tube and nothing was ever grounded many are still standing.

Its just done incase something goes wrong. Which in most cases is very rare.

>>2933829
If everything is bonded but never connected to ground its still unsafe and can shock you if theres an issue. A ground with a partial bond just protects whatever is bonded to ground. Both need to be true for it it be safe.

>>2933760 (OP)
Doesnt in the USA because you tie your negative to it as well, like the retards you are. With your transformers on wooden poles like it's 1909.

>>2933865
>he said on this internet, created by Americans
If not for us you'd be tying that comment to a pigeon.

>>2933897
>If not for us
José committing stolen valor as usual

>>2933846
> Old houses just had knob and tube and nothing was ever grounded many are still standing.
Your confused with breakers. Grounding protects people from electric shock, not houses from electrical fires. Most people from the knob and tube era are not standing anymore

>>2933922
I knobbed and tubed your mom...

>>2933865
>>2933897
>>2933920
epic combo lol

>>2933865

>Negative

First It's neutral

Second europoors also bond neutral to ground where applicable, it just happens at the demarcation point(where the service splits off the main before entering your house). You guys just have to penny pinch everything and can't afford the added safety of a second bond in the thing you call a house panel

>>2934017
>can't afford the safety of creating ground loops for no reason

>>2934034
Honey look, the baby is trying to say words like you do

>>2933865
>With your transformers on wooden poles like it's 1909.

electricity hasn't changed in that time.

>>2934034
So you don't know what a ground loop is or how basic electrical infrastructure functions? It's ok, I hear McDonald's is hiring.

>>2933760 (OP)
while there is indeed a grounding rod stuck into the ground, it is more important that it is also tied to the return path back at the panel

>>2933865
>negative
>with AC
Ah, the enlightened europeans have entered the thread!

>>2933760 (OP)
You can find out how much it matters by just not using ground anywhere and removing all the ground terminals in your receptacles or ground prongs on your plugs. Then literally stick a fork in it.

Dooo iiit. Do it, faggot.

>>2933865
I know, exactly

>>2933824
You mean the one that's similar to having a punching bag hit you in the chest?

>>2934017
>Second europoors also bond neutral to ground where applicable
We stick a copper rod in the ground and then measure the resistance of that ground to see if it is good enough.
That's how we get the ground.

>>2934069
>>2934120

>>2934604
The worst thing is you faggots convinced our electric code that every single breaker needs to be gfci or afci now. It costs $5000 to buy breakers for a panel now instead of $500

>>2934624
>he picked the wrong one to label as American because he doesn't understand

Kay

>>2934625
>every single breaker needs to be gfci or afci now
Is this true?

>>2934637
Sometimes.
I work around Chicago and for a little bit we needed arc faults for bedrooms. We dont anymore.

>>2934625
and then half the house trips when you pull the trigger on your chinkshit plasma cutter because theyre too sensitive to hf noise

>>2934662
>for a little bit we needed arc faults for bedrooms. We dont anymore.

what changed?

>>2934693
Codes changed. They change every year. Don't know why exactly.

>>2934708
money

>>2934626
>I'll just keep saying he doesn't understand, so I don't have to explain how TNCS is more expensive or safer than TNS
>I hope nobody catches on, haha, that'd be embarrassing, haha... or that I described TNCS wrong...

>>2934854
I'm sorry you picked the wrong one bro, it's your pic. Don't need to out yourself like that. You could have just stayed quiet. Instead you had to speak and remove all.doubt

>>2933760 (OP)
Unless there's lightning ground is whatever everyone agrees it is.

If there is lightning you better hope your ground is actually the earth.

>>2933760 (OP)
According to my outlet tester my entire kitchen has an open source ground which is pretty cool, I thought this house was way too old for Linux but I guess not

>>2934625
And they should be. And on the breaker as well, not in the plug like I've seen some of you yankee retards do.

>>2934017
Its whatever, minus, negative, neutral. Same shit. I aint speaking your english mutt language on the daily.

>>2934890
Yours aren't like that though. You have one or two gfci for a bus of a bunch of breakers.

Every single breaker in tye US. Like 30-40 of them. Fuck that. It's retarded

>>2934708
>They change every year
You're telling me that last year you would have to spend 2000$ on arc sensing circuit breakers and this year you just have to spend 100$ on normal breakers?
I'm not an amerifart, but isn't that called being jerk around?

So i have a TNC-S system in my apartment.
My neutral busbar is connectes to the grounding busbar.
Should i combine the neutral and ground in every outlet?
I dont have any GCFI FID RCS.
Should i separate all neutrals and grounds and install a gcfi? Thats the endgoal, but the current question is combining neutrals and grounds in the outlets

>>2935036
>My neutral busbar is connectes to the grounding busbar.
Yeah, that's normal dummy. The grounds and neutrals are bonded together at the main panel. Any sub panels they should be kept separate. Wire as normal.

What happens when you just do what you want in your house, exactly? Like I replaced my furnace with a new one. Supposed to get a permit. Fuck that. I don't need to pay my city $128 dollars so some boomer can come out to my house, so I didn't. All I can think of is when redditors fear monger about insurance not paying out if my house burns down. But my insurance company doesn't know when the furnace was installed previously anyway, there was no record of it (house was built in the 70s).

>>2935041
Its my panel after the meter.
They should be separate and have a gcfi.
But its an old installation.
There used to be two-wired installations with a live wire and a PEN wire. People then shorted the neutral and ground in the outlets.
I do have a three-wire instalation though.
Why shouldnt i shirt the ground and neutral in outlets? Any cons?

>>2935045
>Why shouldnt i shirt the ground and neutral in outlets? Any cons?
The con is return current on the grounding conductor instead of the grounded conductor. You are going to inadvertently energize all your ground wires.

>>2935068
All my ground wires are apparently neutrals as well, innit

>>2935044
Most house fires aren't a total loss

>>2933760 (OP)
In most cases its not an issue, but sometimes you can have a situation where stray voltage can fuck up a component intermittently, and the only fix is to properly ground it, but troubleshooting that can be an absolute nightmare. It can also cause stray voltage to build to dangerous levels on something like a cabinet door and shock someone who touches the outside, but that is even more rare. Its much easier to just ground everything properly from the start and not have to worry about either problem ever. Its just a few inches of wire.
>t. industrial electrician

>>2935045
It's against code. The chassis of anything grounded will be live with the full force of your homes 200A potential. Every circuit in the house could dump current into you if the neutral opens up to the provider

It's literally the worst solution possible. Just leave it ungrounded or put a gfci outlet at the beginning. Then you could put 3 prong outlets down the line and put gfci protected stickers onneverytging.

>>2935018
Yes it's that bad.

We did a job where we re wired an entire house. Boss asked the inspector if we need arc faults. He said we needed them in the bedrooms and bathrooms.
We pulled the extra wires and ran larger pipes to accommodate the extra neutrals needed by arc faults.
At final inspection months later a different inspector came by and saw the arc faults and said we didn't need them and regular breakers were fine.
It was around $2000 extra for all that arc fault stuff and labor that ended up being wasted.

>>2935155
The AFCI stuff is the biggest load of bullshit ever by a code body. They're supposed to weigh financial implications and reward when proposing shit. Making a new panel go from $500 to literally $5000 because of their mandate is insane. Not to mention AFCI is just fucking gay and nuisance trips all the fucking time.

>>2935187
>The AFCI stuff is the biggest load of bullshit ever by a code body.
It was a pure money grab by the manufacturers. Complete bullshit like you said.

>>2935194
I remember the cycle they were mandating it and at the hearing not a single electrician or member spoke in favor of it and they did it anyway. Corrupt boomer shitbags that I dont need evidence to know they got insane kickbacks for doing it.

>>2935210
They do this kind of shit with everything. One of the best things I could imagine is a reboot of law. Too corrupt and convoluted to ever fix at this point.

>>2935232
Their newest bullshit this cycle is they mandated AC disconnect boxes have GFCI outlets in them. So now instead of a simple disconnect box costing $13 they cost almost $100. But the real good part is that, using your head for 3 seconds, you will remember neutral wires are never ran to AC disconnects because they just use 2 lines and a ground. GFCI can't work without neutral. So what does that mean? To be code compliant they expect you to redo your entire wire runs from the breaker box if you ever need to replace your disconnect for some reason. Literal psychopathy WHO THE FUCK ASKED OR NEEDED A GFCI OUTLET SPECIFICALLY THERE?

>>2935250
>Their newest bullshit this cycle is they mandated AC disconnect boxes have GFCI outlets in them.
Mandating service outlets now? With every AC tech using battery tools? Shit, the NEC is about 20 years late on that one. The only thing that has to get plugged in is the vacuum pump. Commercial has had service outlets for every, and you aren’t more than 100’ from an outlet in residential.

Also, how do you get away with a NEMA 5-20R hanging off a 30 A double pole breaker without running two more conductors and a separate breaker?

>>2935257
This is boomers reacting 30 years late to an "issue". They're mandating service outlets NOW, that everyone and their transmom has already transitioned to battery powered everything. A lot of guys even have battery powered vacuum pumps now. These people need to be put out to pasture.

>>2935288
Trust me. They're not doing any of this for safety. They're doing it because Israel told them to.

>>2935297
>They're doing it because Israel told them to.
Fucking jews.

>>2933760 (OP)
if something goes bad, u have tons of electrons wanting to pass the easiest way to the area where no electrons are.

if u are lucky that bad thingy has a metal case and that metal case is grounded.

u touch the metal case without ground? => the electrons will try to pass through ur body to the ground ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

u touch it grounded? => only small portion of those electrons try to pass through ur body, the great main parts are going to the grounding.

^^^^^^^^ that's all AFAIK

>>2935582
forgot pic

What happens on space stations? What do they do for ground up there?

>>2935797
the vaccuum of space acts as the ground

>>2935797
Probably the station itself (assuming it is made of metal) is the ground

>>2933760 (OP)
Becare not to have two grounds, since Generators have somw built in.

>>2935797
Maybe they could use a big capacitor and all the ground wires are bonded to that

>>2933865
>>2934034
>>2934604

I get it now. The Chauvinst Euro posters on this site are retards that don't know what the hell they are talking about.

In a grounded system you always tie neutral to ground at the entrance facility or Main Panel. The whole point of ground is too trip the breaker on a ground fault. The grounding rod is for lighting, esd, and equilibrium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgAVE4UwFw&t=3169s

>>2937223
>you always
peak dunning reddit

I'm in NYC working on a project in chinatown where everything is run with 12/2 BX cable, no ground wire. I guess code books weren't published in Chinese because the whole unit looks like it should've burned down years ago.
I get that the metal jacket on the cable is supposed to serve as a ground, but i'm skeptical how that works with modern appliances.
I'm supposed to be installing a high temp dishwasher that need 3 phase 240 and a ground according to manufacturers specs.
The sub panel's 3 phase but no ground bus bar. Can i just screw one into the box? I don't wanna fuck around and cook the 2000 dollar dishwasher.

>>2937226
Tell me. Where would you put it, if not neutral or neutral adjacent?

>>2937232
>spoonfeed me
You lack first week knowledge of basic training
as i said, peak mount stupid

>>2933760 (OP)
In Australia the ground is just shorted to the neutral inside the main switchboard anyway, because they don't trust the copper stake in the dry soil.

>>2935045
The bond between ground and neutral is called an MEN. "Main Earth Neutral." You should have exactly one MEN point in your entire installation. Maybe google it.

Your GFCIs go after the MEN. People have died after thinking their MEN link was "wrong" and removing it.

>>2937228
>12/2 BX cable, no ground wire. I guess code books weren't published in Chinese because the whole unit looks like it should've burned down years ago.
>I get that the metal jacket on the cable is supposed to serve as a ground, but i'm skeptical how that works with modern appliances.
BX cable's sheath itself was acceptable to use as the ground for a very long time. It's still technically acceptable according to the newest NEC but BX is an obsolete standard for cable regardless. A ground is a ground either it grounds or it doesn't.

>>2937401
That's not unique to australia. You always bond the neutral and ground at the service panel. You do not bond them at sub panels. Nothing to do with soil. You must have a loop so breakers will trip. That ground must go back to the transformer via that neutral or breakers will not trip.

>>2933760 (OP)
It sounds stupid, but its a pretty important safety mechanism if an appliance faults and shorts one of the live wires to the chassis of the appliance. The idea is to cause a short-to-ground so your circuit breakers trip, rather than using something important as a load (like a person) and frying them.
>>2933933
gottem

>>2937535
>You always
>>2937226
again, just because thats the norm in your niggerhood doesnt mean its the god given sole earthing system

>>2933922
Nah it also triggers the differencial circuit breaker, so can prevent fire.

>>2937535
>That ground must go back to the transformer
Is the neutral not connected to ground at the transformer?

>>2938095
It depends on the exact system in the country and what you might have ordered.

Most residential US, the neutral is exactly the same as ground at the transformer and at the first customer disconnect.

Like it's literally the same wire because it's bonded to a ground rod at the transformer and at the house

Using neutral to bakance 2 phases is kinda stupid ngl. The ground at your house can't trip a breaker if the neutral breaks. You can get almost 240v going across your lightbulbs and other crazy shit. If itsnjust anlittlenhigh resistance it's even worse and Electricians aren't smart enough to detect it.

do you want electricity to flow through your body or through a stake in the ground?

>>2938101
>Like it's literally the same wire because it's bonded to a ground rod at the transformer and at the house
Yeah. About that ...
The utility neutral is a current carrying conductor. Likewise, the utilities multiple grounds also carry a part of that neutral current through the ground back to the substation. And anything bonded to the utility neutral and the ground also carries a bit of that current.

To you and me, that's not a big deal. But to someone on medical equipment, being tied into that neutral return circuit can pass enough current through your (low resistance) internal organs to be dangerous. Hence the use of isolation transformers to break that loop.

One other place that this is of concern is milking parlors. Cows don't like being part of that neutral return circuit from the milking machines through their teats and down to the piss-soaked concrete slabs they are standing on. Again, isolation transformers.

>>2933865
>negative
I do not respect nations who trade nuclear for coal, sorry.

>With your transformers on wooden poles like it's 1909.
Bet your dumbass believes the electricity travels inside the wires too.

>>2938698
>do you want electricity to flow through your body
Always has been

>>2935797
"ground" is nowhere specific, the ISS has a Plasma Contactor Unit that basically vents the excess into earths magnetic field. For everything else they use dielectrics and grounding strips to control potential difference.

>>2933760 (OP)
>does grounding really matter?
eh in half the world its connected straight to neutral anyway so it doesnt do much and yes americans your code actually demands this
britfags don't even require a rod to this day fun fact

>>2934017
>Second europoors also bond neutral to ground where applicable
which according to current serb(9th poorest in europe) code is NOWHERE in private housing
>it just happens at the demarcation point(where the service splits off the main before entering your house).
boy you seem to know a lot about "europoors" for someone who seems to hate them (and are still wrong)
I dont actually know where my earth goes I know the terminal it goes to a bolt on the lower right side of the vintage 70s main distribution (meter cabinet, inside the house, feeds the breaker panels of individual floors) but I guess it fucks off to an industrial grade Yugoslav earth rod cause they built shit to last not for profit in Tito's times and it does fucking trip everything
>You guys just have to penny pinch everything
ROFLMAO
show RCDs show recirculation pump behind your house's water heater show 3x layer windows and whatever the fuck else you fuckers do not have as standard to this damn day
>and can't afford the added safety of a second bond in the thing you call a house panel
between bonding it right at the fucking outlet and before the meter it's barely any safety difference you dumb mutt, inside your house you can control the risk with something called a screwdriver, the real risk of neutral failure is outside it and that is not yours to fuck with
and if it was bonded at this "demarcation point" would it not cost MORE as now a fucking fifth wire would run from an earlier point?

>>2937535
>That ground must go back to the transformer via that neutral or breakers will not trip.
if it goes through the soil the RCD trips reliably instead and if the neutral snaps on the grid I don't have to be surrounded by metal death boxes
japs do this along with half of Yurop
>>2938101
>You can get almost 240v going across your lightbulbs and other crazy shit
hah now try 3 phases 400v in such a scenario

>>2933865
Try leaving your city retard, there are overheads in europe too. It is also the best way to rapidly cover large distances

>>2933760 (OP)
Jesus Christ this thread.
Real Electrician here.
Yes, "Grounding" is the difference between life and death. Also it depends on the network system your region runs. Just for information, there are IT, TT, TNC, TNCS and TNS systems. They require different approaches to "grounding". Also different types of devices. Safety Class 1, class 2, class 3, which also have different approaches to grounding. If you don't know what an RCD and MCB are and how the work, just don't fidget with this.

>>2940162
>hurr 3 phase 400v

This wouldn't effect lightbulbs at all even if your ground broke. If your neutral broke it would just turn off

In America it's bad because the split phase nature will cause all the power I. The house to run backwards through the neutral to the other phase through whatver lights/devices are on because the neutral is imbalanced now.

>>2940161
>pumps 3 glaze window etc
These are all common on new houses.

You.can get a separate grounding conductor from the power company if you ask really nicely and pay for it.

>>2940181
>This wouldn't effect lightbulbs at all even if your ground broke. If your neutral broke it would just turn off
yes it would be basically the same as it is on your split phase actually, the voltages change depending on load on each phase when the neutral is lost, a third of your lightbulbs can get a nice 360v and another third can get 20v
>These are all common on new houses.
oh well I'm glad you're finally advancing
>You.can get a separate grounding conductor from the power company if you ask really nicely and pay for it.
huh interesting and where does it run from? they gonna run a new wire from the transformer for you? I doubt it

>>2940337
>do they run a new wire from the transformer.

Yes. That's why it costs more.

Oh that's right they do run 3 phases in Europe now.

Since we're talking about grounding here. I'm running electric to my new detatched garage. I'm running 100 amps from my house panel over to another main panel in my garage. Do I need to bond the neutral to the ground in my garage panel or no since it's already done at the main disconnect to my house (presumably)?

>>2940701
Very specifically.do not, you need to bring the ground over from the main gro7jd bond.

That's kinda huge service for a garage but okay.

>>2940707
Thanks, after doing some reading it does appear bonding them in a sub panel is a no no unless you have some niche setup. I ran 100 amps just incase I ever put some machinery and/or a car charger in the future and I don't feel like digging up the trench ever again

>>2933865
>wooden poles
sovl

>>2940701
>>2940716
You never bond anywhere except your final, main panel. This is a very basic concept. In residential electrical work this is true 100% of the time.

Are yall retarded ? In the netherlands we hammer a earthing rod in the ground, to provide the earth for the house. In the past it used to be the incoming water pipes, but these were replaced with plastic pipes so earthing on that is not possible or allowed anymore.

>>2935250
I heard it was because some nigger running from the cops, jumped a fence and fried himself on an AC wire that he landed on

My house runs on solar and I never grounded anything at all and if I turn off my desk fan sometimes it makes my monitor go dark for a few seconds.

>>2941005
>s*rbs doing s*rb things

>>2933760 (OP)
It will matter if you need it