Thread 105635248

>released in 1976
>still in use by the most skilled programmers

What makes EMACS stand the test of time?

The Church of Emacs.
https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/gospel.html

>>105635289
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.

>>105635334
I use emacs on BSD

>>105635338
does it require glibc to compile?

>>105635359
Who cares if it does? Do you think I give a fuck what license comes with the software I'm using?

>>105635338
BSD is free software, so you're a Saint.
>SAINTS — Writes Free software using Free software tools.

>>105635248 (OP)
>What makes EMACS stand the test of time?
It has a really good system for extensibility. It's really an Elisp runtime environment that happens to have a lot of text editing functions in its standard library. They also have an extremely strong culture of documentation such that nearly every public function and variable has a docstring attached to it. Once you're proficient in querying Emacs' help system, they are a tremendous help.

Knowing how to ask Emacs questions about itself is a skill that has to be developed though. A lot of beginners don't know how to do this, hence the initial confusion and frustration many beginners face. Every Emacs user has been there. Some push through, but many don't.

From the OP of >>105581689
>Elisp
Docs: C-h f [function] C-h v [variable] C-h k [keybinding] C-h m [mode] M-x ielm [REPL]

Get really familiar with these keybindings, and Emacs will explain itself to you.

(((CIA))) glowniggers fear the M-x spook

>>105635338
cuck license

>>105635591
I use it all of the time.

>>105635375
nono, I'm not a gpl autist, I'm just interested in if you can run Emacs without all the cruft of glibc, not that ultra-minimalism is a huge priority for emacs users but it would certainly help for portability between different operating systems

>>105635751
Quick look says I needed the following to build from source on my OS:
>gcc git gnutls gmake jansson automake autoconf

>>105635591
>spook

>>105635248 (OP)
i tried gnu emacs but found it kind of slow. i might be more interested in a clisp emacs, but all the ones i've seen are all half-baked.

>>105635751
>>105635768
I should add that most people don't care about pulling in all the GNU shit for emacs because I know they'll never convince a GNU project about portability. The OpenBSD people just decided to build their own version of emacs instead:

https://man.openbsd.org/mg

It's really nice provided all you want is a text editor. I use it for editing config files and writing emails and such. Some coding too. The BSD people are all-in on the "UNIX as an IDE" thing. Emacs is considered a massive security hole for the same reasons why it's fun to use in the first place. I just avoid the autism and use both.

>>105635800
>https://man.openbsd.org/mg
>It is compatible with emacs because there shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi(1).
Holy based

>>105635792
I will make that for you
It might take me a long time

>>105635751
Nigga emacs runs on multiple operating systems that don't have glibc.

Be a man, use ed

>>105635248 (OP)
The most skilled programmers use picrel.

:q!

>>105636767
VI VI VI... the editor of the beast...

>>105636767
Vim has been reimplemented in Elisp. Get the best of both worlds.
https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil
https://github.com/noctuid/evil-guide

>>105636767
Exiting Vim isn't a "skill".

>>105635248 (OP)
beautiful software design. the most coherent and extensible system ever made

>>105636767
Emacs with vi keybinds (evil) is the best of both worlds.

>>105637395
Modal editing is garbage. Capslock -> ctrl key swap is better in every way. All other applications that aren't vi have emacs bindings. Switching modes is retarded. Vimfags are brain damaged.

>>105637542
>All other applications that aren't vi have emacs bindings
only because they're made by gnu braindamage or derived from same. Well designed applications can be configured to use vi bindings, crap applications can be avoided altogether.

>>105637542
sybau

>>105635751
Emacs runs on Alpine Linux, which would mean it works well without glibc. Just guessing though.

>>105635248 (OP)
>most skilled programmers
who? (except linus)

>>105637542
idk what ctrl swap has to do with modal editing (nothing). imagine being filtered by esc (i cant)

>>105640299
https://github.com/torvalds/uemacs

>>105640299
Donald Knuth
Guido van Rossum
Jeff Dean
Joe Armstrong
Peter Norvig
Richard Stallman
Sanjay Ghemawa
Steve Yegge
Theo de Raadt
Yukihiro Matsumoto

...etc.

>>105637542
it is garbage, but emacs' bindings suck. half of them aren't mnemonic, okay fine that's normal.
but then the existing mnemonics are fucking worthless because the jargon is totally foreign to the modern computer user and it's not even intuitive.
"killing" and "yanking" are the most obvious examples, but then you have shit like "org mode", "tramp mode", on top of all the programmer jargon.

i remember trying to set up emacs to do development work in scheme when i was a young programmer and getting lost in a sea of jargon and vagueness. most people aren't going to put up with that any more than they're going to put up with vim's autistic modal editing. they're going to use one of the billion other highly extensible editors that are floating around now that work out of the box with familiar verbs, interfaces and bindings. in vs code you just open up your sidepane, click on a search bar and install an extension to get full language support. even if you're doing something wacky, all you ever do is fiddle with a couple fields of a json, a markup language most people are familiar with. in emacs you need to get up to speed on lisp and sexprs which itself is a non-trivial task, a very quirky variant of a lisp at that, and then you need to comb through a massive mountain of documentation to even find where the fuck you're going and what you need to change. installing extensions is a configuration nightmare for a new user.

i love emacs, it's very powerful and good, but it's really not any less opaque than vi/vim/neovim when you're starting out, and it's far from being the only extensible text editor in town anymore.

Emacs use in media. Anyone know any others?

The Social Network:

https://youtu.be/KdtPNRzuKrk?t=228

The Internship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpdngXQOkBI

Silicon Valley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r1z5NDXU3s

Tron Legacy:

https://youtu.be/Qeh3E67brBs?t=231

>>105640299
ZUN

>>105635248 (OP)
It's literally just a portable Lisp machine, the last of its kind going.

>>105635713
>>105635591
>It's real
How did I not know about this.

>>105644836
>casually posts his ipv6 on 4chan
You're toast, kiddo. Check M-x spook tomorrow, it'll have a little surprise just for you

>>105640322
>imagine being filtered by esc
No one has ever been "filtered by ESC". They just realize it's a retarded concept and don't bother with it when much better editors are available. If you want to use your retarded modal editing in emacs go right ahead. No one is going to stop you.

Imagine reaching for the ESC key all of the time.

>>105641624
You're still using emacs style bindings if you're not touching the mouse. I'm not running a web browser to edit a text document sorry.
>all these obscure terms
Oh no you had to read the manual and go through a simple tutorial. That's so much worse than randomly googling for how tos posted by pajeets on stack overflow.
>json
Garbage
>lisp is hard
and you expect anyone to take your opinion about writing code seriously?

Just admit you have no business in the industry and you wouldn't be able to do anything at all without a search engine holding your hand.

>>105643889
Ah, I was wondering where that claim came from. Thanks for providing a source, I tried to search for it to no avail a while ago.

>>105642043
That seems like bad advice. Isn't there a way to pass -Q to Emacs.app on OSX?

https://gist.github.com/railwaycat/4043945

>>105635248 (OP)
It has a strong gate-keeping culture who dismiss any use-case outside their own, claiming you use Emacs wrong.

>>105647512
I don't think it's gate keeping. The learning curve is just steep. Then once you're over the initial hump, there's a mountain before you that'll take a lifetime to climb. Everybody who's using Emacs is still learning. (And it's fun.)

>>105647512
Let me guess --you're starting and stopping Emacs repeatedly instead of letting it run a long time (like you would a web browser).

>>105647177
Yep, he's a chad Emacs wizard. Here's him talking about Emacs:
https://youtu.be/RPeFQwBFURk?t=1623

does anyone know how to have live preview for emacs? ive been transitioning recently to emacs recently.

>>105648052
You will find most people from the 80s-90s era of software are really into emacs. Unlike UNIX emacs was truly portable. So it didn't matter what bullshit OS you were forced to work on you could always take your comfy emacs config with you. Even Billy Gates himself is/was an avid emacs user.

There is simply nothing else that comes close to the emacs experience. It can do anything and you can easily implement anything you want with it. It's basically just a lisp machine and most things can be done in just a few lines of code. I'll give you an example.

I recently needed a comics/manga viewer. The main one everyone suggests using is Calibre. Which requires an ungodly amount of dependencies and shit like dbus running at all times just to function. All of that to simply show a list of files, track reading history and open archives of files and display the images and/or text inside.

I implemented my own ebook+manga reader in emacs in less than 200 lines of code total. It has two major modes. One for epubs and the other for .cbz/.cbr files. It is not only faster than Calibre it does everything without requiring dependencies I already have installed (to open .zip/.rar archives) and it's much better at tracking history since it integrates into emacs bookmarks+org-mode.

I'm not a "do everything in emacs" type of person either. I did the EXWM thing for awhile and it was okay. But I do still use emacs for a lot. It's my pdf viewer. It's how I read books. It's my IDE. It's my calendar, organizer, to-do list/agenda manager and it's how I write and export all my documents to a variety of different formats. Emacs allows me to not have to care or install hundreds of piece of other software. In general, it does what those pieces of software did much better AND I can customize how it functions in any way I want.

Emacs is the only decent thing that ever came out of GNU.

>>105643889
please excuse me but who is this guy

>>105648592
moot's bro

>>105648660
The king of >>>/g/mkg

>>105641624
>it's far from being the only extensible text editor in town anymore.
But there still isn't an editor that does extensibility as well as Emacs. Or any other kind of application. It's one of the few software programs I've ever used that feels like it was made for human beings instead of people who are either retarded or severely autistic.

>>105635792
there is second-climacs and lem but not sure if they are any better.

>>105648853
There are many times I've found myself wishing I could introspect mpv the same way I can in Emacs. mpv is a decently configurable program, but it's difficult to ask it questions about itself while it's running like I can with Emacs. I also can't reconfigure it while it's running like I can with Emacs.

>>105648592
Creator of the Touhou Project

>>105641271
>Yukihiro Matsumoto
is that why ruby sucks ass?

>>105650396
What has your little bitch ass ever made?

I was a sublime user for ages but decided to try vanilla emacs about a month ago.

Used gpt to guide me thorough setting up a config with noob-shit like hitting c-a twice to highlight all text.

Most of my intelij colleagues think I'm retarded but I'm enjoying it too much to care. Org mode is sweet.

>>105636767
my dad used vim when he worked for ibm
now i use vim
it runs in the family

>>105636881
h-hot

>>105648052
What did he say? Auto translate isn't working for some reason.

>>105651378
emacsu emacsu emacsu

>>105648853
>But there still isn't an editor that does extensibility as well as Emacs.
lite/lite-xl

>>105648994
>mpv is a decently configurable program, but it's difficult to ask it questions about itself while it's running like I can with Emacs.
I had to do some digging, but I found you this:
https://github.com/guidocella/mpv-lua-repl
it's kind of weird that they have a console, but it's using their own DSL and the only way to get at raw lua is through load-script. dunno what the fuck they were thinking.
> I also can't reconfigure it while it's running like I can with Emacs.
i don't see why you can't do this with load-script (or the above linked lua repl extension)
i thought mpv was configured with lua scripts? admittedly i haven't spent any time customizing or changing anything about it.
if they're using a DSL for configuration, that's also really stupid.

I probably would've learned emacs had it not been for the fact that everything ships with vi/vim by default. So I just learned vim early on and muscle memory did its thing.
Doing everything in emacs looks fun though, ngl. Kind of wish I lea

>>105648656
where can I buy that emacs tshirt?

>>105635248 (OP)
incredibly modular design that appeals to autists.

>>105653037
https://shop.fsf.org/products

>>105653262
M-x auto-fill-mode
https://shop.fsf.org/gear/emacs-auto-fill-mode-mug

>>105653262
cute /g/nu

I've been using it for a few years but I just set up my evil keybinds and the usual visual improvements and a few needfuls but don't really step past that.
How do I become an emacs god? I still struggle with some basic things like repos pulled from github with their internal #includes not working properly with eglot in C/C++. or my own projects not really working either unless I have the libs as either "includes" or installed in /usr/include
Also zero idea on how to use emacs to connect remotely to a server, actually take advantage of eww, write latex, actually use org to its fullest or really just actually write some elisp beyond (setq sex-with-children t).

>>105655118
just ask chatgpt

>>105655798
>chatgpt
M-x gptel
https://github.com/karthink/gptel

>>105655908

Perhaps the first LLM integration package I come across that looks worth cheking out.

>>105655118
>How do I become an emacs god?
The better you understand Elisp, the better your experience with Emacs will be. Asking LLMs questions about Elisp is a good option these days, but before LLMs existed, you had to learn the art of asking Emacs questions about itself via the commands under C-h.

From the OP of >>>/g/lisp
>Docs: C-h f [function] C-h v [variable] C-h k [keybinding] C-h m [mode] M-x ielm [REPL]

Commit these to memory and use them frequently. Emacs can tell you a lot about itself if you learn how to ask.

>>105655118
Have you tried reading the manuals?

You niggers got me using Emacs now and I'm deep into a rabbit hole.
I like vi/vim a lot and emacs seems to be a step beyond that in terms of things its capable of (and things I have to learn to be effective). Still, I'm going to make an effort to learn it just because I've been hearing people talk about emacs forever and I figure its time to learn it.

my init.el is a mess but i just love emacs

>>105652392
I tried it. I can see a Lua fanatic enjoying it but it's still not on Emacs' level, aside from the UI being less crufty.

>>105656511
For me, its NetBSD :]
mg is a good editor though, really solid emacs implementation from the OpenBSD guys
SPEAKING OFFFFFF
does anyone here regularly use anything like Zile or uEmacs? I was surprised how usable they were, I appreciate the comprehensiveness of even base gnu emacs but I wish the more lean versions got more love. Scheme ftw btw

>>105656505
>I'm going to make an effort to learn it
the golden rule of learning to use emacs is to not try too hard to learn it. you will come to see it as a burden when it is not one
just get used to the help system and learn as you go and it will slowly sink into your brain

>>105656511
Try reading the entire post.
>Maybe next time I do this I will try to go full emacs, another major culture that I don’t have much exposure to.
I wonder if he ever did it.

>>105656022
>LLM integration packages
Yep, it's great.

how do i make my emacs config look as good as others? all i was able to wrangle was making it dark mode

>>105659990
It's not worth it, the defaults look good enough and you won't have to deal with jank introduced by modifying settings you don't really understand.

>>105659990
Through years of love and care

>>105659990
dunno, I use doom emacs so I have a lot of this shit already installed and configured

>>105659990
You can use a distribution like doom emacs but I wouldn't recommend it because these distributions come with tons of edgecases and custom shit where you can't really work with tutorials about emacs anymore. I recommend slowly building your own config file from scratch, but once you have it you just copy-paste (or better yet git) it between all of your devices for the rest of your life.
The best resource is unironically ChatGPT, it's a fucking god with basic emacs configs and question and if you have a problem you can just throw your whole config file at it and can figure it out by itself in a lot of cases

>>105635248 (OP)
>>still in use by the most skilled programmers
I'm a dev in the industry for over 10 years and every dev I met never used Emacs

Emacs is way too bloated and slow even with native compilation, too many things locking the UI, too much jank. Can't even open a 10MB file and scroll without micro freezes unless you switch to fundamental mode with no line numbers and no word-wrap.

>>105662180
this shouldn't happen unless you're parsing the 10mb file

its very easy to gimp your own emacs with a bad config

>>105662886
That's the thing, stock emacs can't handle a somewhat large text file(like miniaudio) without shitting the bed.
Nano, vim, sublime text, or even vs code can.

>>105662943
This is only due to Emacs' old regex-based code parsing. The only time I ever see gigantic single-file projects is with C libraries, so if you need to deal with them, c-ts-mode will fix your problem.
It's not a stock Emacs solution, but if you want to use a stock editor, Emacs wasn't for you anyway.

>skilled programmers
fastest LISP implementation is written in C, emacs is only used by retards.

>>105663674
>fastest LISP implementation is written in C
so?

>>105663690
Have you tried using emacs to write C code? Needless to say, emacs wasn't programmed in emacs, fuck off.

>>105663674
I bet you think electroonslop (VSCode, Cursor etc.) are the editors used by “geniuses”, low-iq vibe cooder zoomer.

>>105663749
I'll tell you what I think when you post code you've written.

>>105656852
>does anyone here regularly use anything like Zile or uEmacs
I use Zile/mg pretty often for quick little edits while I'm sshed into one of my systems. Anything beyond a few lines I'll spin up TRAMP though.

>>105663718
>Have you tried using emacs to write C code?
...yes?

>>105663785
Post it. Or are you too embarrased to show me your fizzbuzz?

>>105663796
oh i see. so which /dpt/ schizo are you

>>105663815
The one that's still waiting for a genius to post his code.

>>105662049
>Start workin with Clojure
>Half of all devs use Emacs
Truly superior

I know everyone who answers this question is going to be biased one way or another, but will using and learning Emacs actually make me a better programmer? Like, not just more productive once I get the hang of it, but will it actually make me write better code?

>>105666466
How good of a programmer you'll be is largely up to you and not your editor. I've met some geniuses who use Emacs, and I've also met some very incompetent people who also use Emacs. Unfortunately, being a Lisp programmer doesn't automatically make you a good programmer.

>>105667413
Being a lisp programmer makes you hate other languages that take more than a week to learn.

>>105648237
All those apps people use that keep track of their anime, or view their manga and shit, they're so easy to make. I agree. I don't care for using emacs to play music though.

Thoughts on XEmacs?

lisp is great, too bad emacs is so fucking slow compared to vim but I can't live without Magit anymore

>>105668608
What exactly is slow? I don't really notice much slowness compared to ages ago.

>>105668608
>magit
seems like emacs makes you a worse programmer and not a better one

>>105668619
startup is slow
loading up a project is slow
large texts are slow
lsp loading takes fucking ages even visual studio intellisense is faster

>>105668637
why would a text editor make you anything

>>105668651
Because every single tool that makes life easier, makes you more retarded.

>>105668651
I don't find those things slow, so you must have an ancient computer or something.

>>105668693
Maybe you're slow and don't notice it.

>>105668709
I am pretty slow, yes. But it's definitely faster than visual studio.

>>105668734
Your mom is faster than visual studio.

>>105668693
> blaming hardware for anything
Saar.

>>105668743
I always benchmark new code on my old laptop from 2011, and it is always at least thrice as fast as alternatives. Like, I'm talking libc functions that should be optimized by most of elite programmers already. My code beats it easily by breaking the standard of slow shitty pajeetware. It's so fucking tiresome.

I have to use Codium for some stuff until they make eglot support multiple language servers in the same buffer. Another problem is the keybindings force you to configure any other app to use the same keybindings because else you will go crazy. I don't know. I might use it for some stuff where one language server is enough just because I'm faster with Emacs macros but I more and more use AI to write the code anyway, so keybindings or macros are less of an issue.

since Zed has a debugger now I fully switched from using vscode for many years to Zed and I don't regret it. It even has the best Vim implementation of all the editors I tested

>>105669059
It looks like shit when running on Linux and if they continue to go crazy with the paid AI integration instead of building a good editor, it will end up being dead like their first attempt making money called atom.

>>105669311
>It looks like shit when running on Linux
I am using it on my Arch + GNOME machine and my macbook and it doesn't look like shit on the Arch machine.
>paid AI integration
you don't have to use it, if you really need AI you can use the other too.

>>105669311
>it will end up being dead like their first attempt making money called atom.
do you even know why Atom died? I guess not

>>105669421
Because it's a slow piece of shit that doesn't do anything new.

>>105669059
That's great, buddy. Now what does any of that have to do with emacs?

>>105670280
emacs is overkill for most people which only need a text editor.

>>105670297
>my heckin ai-powered vibe coding zoomer text editor is muh better than emacs
gr8 b8 m8

>>105670602
vim (not redditvim in case you're illiterate) is better than emacs.

>>105670642
>t. vimuser.org

>>105670602
as if emacs doesn't have it too, come on
https://github.com/karthink/gptel

>>105670654
Trannies are known to be better programmers than fizzbuzzers, tell us more about your obsessions.

>>105670673
optional package
not built-in by default unlike zed/cursor/whatever "ai-powered" editors

>>105670775
I have disabled all of the AI in Zed, no problem

>>105670775
good. it shouldn't be built-in.

>>105670775
as it should be

>>105643889
>>105648052
>>105648703
based hakurei kannushi

>>105635248 (OP)
The fact that, despite being undeniably flawed and showing its age, it just fucking works.

No, the vast majority of editors don't "just work" beyond extremely basic needs, and yes, the importance of having a good text editor that can handle nontrivial editing tasks is severely underestimated by most programmers.

>>105662053
>reptile battles
lulwut

>>105670297
>emacs is overkill
werks on my machine

If I want to change something I can just do
M-: (find-file user-init-file)
Type some shit, do M-x ev-b, and I'm done
It's really nice

>>105656561
Just pull out most of your homebrew into separate files and load them in your init.el
I have one for packages, one for macros and keybinds, one for treesitter, etc.
I keep them in a subdir of .emacs.d which is a git repo, so I can pull it down on any of my computers

>>105656561
>my init.el is a mess
kek same

>>105635248 (OP)
cursor mog this shitty editor, you boomers

>>105635248 (OP)
Autism i assume

>>105660656
Learned this the hard way.

Started with Doom Emacs and thought holy shit everything works out of the box. Over time I realized I'm just fighting against its macros, trying to override and undo things it did, bloating up my config each time for the simplest thing, and finally ended up starting from scratch.

>>105679654
boring bait

>>105648052
>calls vscode insecure shit
holy based

>>105656661
>I can see a Lua fanatic enjoying it but it's still not on Emacs' level
From an extensibility perspective? It absolutely is. Actually it beats out emacs in this regard because it has a more general API to target.

>>105682547
>Actually it beats out emacs
I doubt it. It would have to compete with over 40 years of packages written in Elisp, many of which still work flawlessly today. And Lua isn't really as stable as Elisp.

>>105682547
>Actually it beats out emacs in this regard because it has a more general API to target.

the entire emacs lisp ecosystem is open to be modified, if anything having to access a limited API through an embedded scripting language like lua is the real limit

>>105682770
It would have to compete with over 40 years of packages written in Elisp,
That's entirely besides the point whether the software is extensible or not.

>>105682812
>if anything having to access a limited API through an embedded scripting language like lua is the real limit
Emacs works on the same exact principle and the API is far more rigid and inflexible.


If you want to make the point that there are more pre-existing extensions to emacs, that's fine and obviously I wouldn't argue that. But pre-existing utilization of extensibility isn't equivalent to the property of extensibility itself. I'm not sure why you would even try to argue that. When we say that things like VS Code isn't as extensible as emacs, we're not making remarks on the existing glut of extensions, but of the structure and limitations imposed to how that extensibility is implemented. VS Code absolutely dwarfs emacs in its software ecosystem. But the problem with VS Code is that the extensibility is full of limitations and poor design decisions and not as flexible as what's offered by the elisp VM's set of abstractions it exposes in its base API.

>>105682547
Emacs is much nicer to actually make an extension for though, even if Lite-XL is technically as moldable as Emacs is.

Yeah because uni couldn't draw porn

>>105682960
EMACS is literally a lisp sandbox. You can do whatever the fuck you want.

>>105682969
In my opinion, Emacs' real boon is it's years upon years of pre-existing extensions you can cannibalize. I don't find it particularly nice to write extensions for, outside of the fact that I can just base mine off of someone else's work, and the community standard of documentation makes pulling that work apart kind from a repl kind of nice. If I'm working in a vacuum, emacs is kind of a pain in the ass. The scoping rules and lack of real message passing infrastructure makes the threads a bit of a pain in the ass to use. I always feel like I just devolve into abusing error signals and a mess of globals.

>>105682960
>That's entirely besides the point whether the software is extensible or not.
Wrong. Language stability and longevity are essential for extensibility.
>Many languages have evolved in ways that have necessitated backwards compatibility breaking changes. One of the most famous examples is that of the Python 2 to the Python 3 transition. This meant that all code written in Python 2 could not be leveraged in Python 3. The end result was millions upon millions of libraries and lines of code were rendered obsolete with official support ending in 2020.
>On the other hand, Lisp code written some 30 years ago will most of the time, without issue, work on a modern Common Lisp implementation (there are a few compatibility edge cases from the pre-unification era of Lisps under the banner of Common Lisp).
https://nyxt-browser.com/article/why-lisp.org

>>105683094
>Wrong. Language stability and longevity are essential for extensibility.
In so far as the changes to an implementation of a language used for extensibility actually exist within the project itself.
If someone makes a version of lua that has huge breaking changes across a large amount of code, that's not really the problem of people using a particular implementation of lua, in the same way that clojure's existence is completely irrelevant to elisp.
if puc rio releases lua 6.0 that completely breaks everything, or luajit makes some breaking change with their dialect, neither of these things affect me.
>Lisp code written some 30 years ago will most of the time, without issue, work on a modern Common Lisp implementation
I can't plug the lisp parts of emacs into SBCL and it'll just work.
but I do get the same "most of the time" lua code written 20 years ago still works without issue in a modern lua implemention.
and of course to reiterate what I say above, changes other codebases make to their implementation of lua doesn't affect me. changing the implementation of lua to a different version is the equivalent of trying to replace elisp and it's VM with say, guile.

>>105683073
I guess? But the fact that I very rarely have to work "in a vacuum" at all is what I like about Emacs. Having a huge standardized base to build on is very nice. I do not care if the solution to my problem is a little hacky, I care about being able to solve the problem quickly and easily, and Emacs provides for me far more often than not.
I agree about Emacs threading being shit, though.

>>105682461
trvthnvke

>>105683073
The infrastructure around Elisp development in Emacs is really good though. Whenever I have to write Lua, I feel like I'm going back to the stone age. The documentation culture in Emacs is also top-tier. Nearly every function and variable has a docstring attached to it.

>>105635248 (OP)
bloatware

>>105635713
>>105635591
You can get permabanned on 4chan for posting this tool.
Apparently this violates US law or some shit.

Noob here. I'm using minimal-emacs.d.

>>105682461
If I had petabytes of child pornography like this guy does, I too would be scared of running anything that doesn't fit on a floppy disc.

> Rebinding a frequently pressed pinky key to an other pinky key.
What is the point here? Surely it can't be reducing finger strain.

>>105685910
>>105637542

>>105685910
CAPS is where CTRL was on the original keyboard emacs was intended to be used with. It's ultra comfy and I enjoy it. I don't remap CTRL in init.el. I remap it within my entire OS. Since CAPS is fucking useless.

>>105685910
Pressing Caps Lock with your pinky is still a lot better.
Also, not using Emacs won't protect you from RSI. Not even point and click UIs are any better.

>>105685089
I got torn a new one in the lisp thread here for posting a sample that was undocumented by at least three people, it's commendable

>>105685910
You don't need to bend your pinky as much. If you tried it even once then you wouldn't have to ask.

>>105682461
VSTODDLERS BTFO!

>>105687679
GNU/Based

>>105682461
@grok is it real

>>105680476
I'm not even baiting.

>>105648660
This is why I use VS Code, despite liking the idea of emacs. Every time I've decided to use it (and I've gone for months), I realized my productivity goes down just due to the huge amounts of time I spend tweaking everything. VS Code is soulless, but I can have it ready for work in 5 minutes, and I'll never need to revisit my configuration again.
Emacs, in contrast, has a million syntax highlighting quirks, random problems with performance with large files, or long lines, plus every feature is implemented in a way only someone in their 50s would think is convenient.

In a way, it's similar to why Linux is a hassle to use.

>>105682461
>i'm scared because it makes me angry
ngl he doesn't sound like the kind of person you want to give you advice

>>105683353
im happy we've come to understand each other anon. may your macros stay forever hygienic

>>105689826
>GenAI
More like GenZOOMER

>>105641271
Steve Yegee, then meeeeeee!

>>105690117
Why not use doom or space? There's still a myriad of reasons to use emacs or vim (and I find emacs is actually easier to beginners) over VSCopium.

>>105652392
>lite-xl
>c+lua
Nah, even something like Lem moggs it. Common Lisp is much more powerful than C or Lua.
Also, Lem now has a Magit equivalent written 100% in Common Lisp:
https://github.com/lem-project/lem/blob/main/extensions/legit

>>105648660
werks on my ᵋmachine™

>>105685910
Am I the only one who uses this part of the hand to press Ctrl? I never had to rebind anything

>>105693177
Wish Lem would upgrade to SDL3 (also wish they were a CL-SDL3 library or something already). The issues with SDL2-compat make it unusable (meta-key doesn't work).

>>105691653
based serious top tier productivity programmers, some are already jumping on the wagon while the entitled programmers are drowning in the lake.

>>105693177
>Nah, even something like Lem moggs it. Common Lisp is much more powerful than C or Lua.
Common Lisp is a more powerful language than Lua,
BUT
lite-xl is a better editor than Lem.

I'm just trying to give proper credit where it's due. The lite-xl authors did a good job on implementing the actual text editing parts. The UI is way more polished than Lem.

>>105695497
I'm with you.

>>105695497
I do it too, mainly because I'm too lazy to reconfigure my keyboard.

>>105695497
>>105696379
>>105697324
>Not being part of the glove80 masterrace
I would spite you more but apparently Eli Zaretskii uses a $10 keyboard and he's just a better human being than me.

>>105693177
Is Lem actually worth using and writing packages for? I'd love to use it as an excuse to actually learn Common Lisp while porting a few of my favorite packages and maybe a M-x puyo but I need to know if it at least works as a competent IDE for writing C code, something like a bare minimum of eglot+company, global vi keybinds, a fully fledged out org-mode port, ERC-TLS etc is what I need. I'd even try helping out with an SDL3 port although most of the process should be automatic by now.

>>105635248 (OP)
If vim doesn't implement proper wayland clipboard support soon I'll move back to emacs.

>>105695497
Are you talking your pinky? Because using the circled part has me wondering how large your mitts are. Trying to hammer it with the "meat" of my hand is extremely awkward compared to just moving the pinky down.

>>105695497
I just tried it and I couldn't do it, from that position I can't reach A or any adjacent key

>>105699976
anon has either a huge keyboard, or tiny hands

>>105644836
the one person that horizontal splits

>>105685910
http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_pinky.html

>>105643889
>>105648052
>>105682461
ZUN is Right.
GNU (Gensokyo's Not Unix) Emacs is the superior 2hübermensch's text editor.

>>105690175
His assessment of VSC is still correct though, which goes to show how obviously shit VSC is.

>>105703331
https://github.com/y-usuzumi/emacs-bad-apple

>>105705399
nice

>>105695497
This creates nerve gas (inside your hand, then you die)

>>105690117
>I'll never need to revisit my configuration again.
That's what I ultimately hate about vscooode, windows, etc. You actually will need to visit it again, because in 6 months or 3 years they will change shit up and your shit will break. You are eternally at their mercy. Emacs config rarely breaks once you do it properly.

>>105705399
M-x bad-apple-mode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE4U8ieZpU4

>>105690117
What are these syntax highlighting quirks? Is it just not working the way you expect from being used to vs code or what? I don't rely too much on the syntax highlighting to notice I guess.

if you had one thing to tell a new emacs user that isn't common knowledge what would you tell them

>>105708677
You don't need a 1000 lines long init file to use it. My .init.el is 800 lines long but I've also been using Emacs for 6 years now.
Also, avoid the configuration nightmare that is corfu & cape.

>>105708738
corfu is nice though.
https://github.com/minad/corfu
Just use the first example config from the README and go from there.

>>105708808
>corfu is nice though.
I switched to completion-preview mode and haven't looked back. https://eshelyaron.com/posts/2023-11-17-completion-preview-in-emacs.html
It's all I ever wanted.

>>105635248 (OP)
gemini cli wrapper when?

>>105709501
they were talking about it earlier

>>105709501
>>105655908

>>105708677
Read the manual. It's long, detailed, and well written.

>>105695497
>>105696379
>>105697324
trannies detected

>>105687679
baste

Hello sirs, I use VS Code for programming, sinful.

Can you get a system similar to VS Code with Emacs? Autocomplete, inline terminal, and connect to DBs are things that I use daily.

>>105712538
install doom emac
shrimple as

>>105699714
Don't know about the rest, but there is no org mode port despite fuck tons of people wanting one and claiming they'd help out if someone started it. As far as I know no one has started it yet though. You can check the lem github discussions and such for further information.

>>105712538
No emacs cannot do autocomplete, have a terminal, or connect to databases. It's literally impossible for anyone but the geniuses at Microsoft to create such wonders.

>>105714854
The state of org-mode parsers for CL isn't very good to begin with.
>>105685011

>>105693177
Fixed width renderer, inherently not the same class of editor as emacs and lite. And quite honestly it sucks ass as an editor after having used it for a couple of days.
>Common Lisp is much more powerful than C or Lua.
Good thing lua lets you load a lisp dialect called fennel.
Just translate common lisp to fennel and you can use common lisp.
You can translate lisp dialects trivially, can't you anon?
>C
Irrelevant to lite as much as it is to common lisp AND lem (SBCL's core infrastructure and runtime is written in C, and lem has C code embedded in it.)

>>105712538
Yeah, and people have already done that for you.
Emacs is slower than (but not as memory hungry as) VS Code though.
You should still prefer Emacs over VS Code in the end. It's just a much nicer and consistent platform.

>>105652392
>lite/lite-xl
Interesting, but I'm sticking with Helix + Steel. Much more promising.
https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/pull/8675

>emacs.d
Even PewDiePie is an EMAChad

idiosyncrasy

>>105718848
I'm happy he's given Floorp a try. It's my favorite browser right now.

>>105635248 (OP)
I hate how this piece of shit keeps auto-indenting and formatting the line whenever I press enter, even though I've done everything to turn it off

>>105635248 (OP)
>still in use by the most skilled programmers
Probably the confluence of two issues: a cultural thing and the fact that we don't produce skilled programmers anymore. We produce SDK jockeys.

>>105720206
>Floorp
why

>>105720466
that's like its best feature wtf, also select lines then tab to format. vim fags could never

>>105717535
>fixed width renderer
>modal editing
>language server had to be baked in because it's not robust enough to support it as an extension
this isn't the same class of editor as emacs and lite anon.

>>105721958
In vim, it's pretty similar. Visual select lines with V and then hit = to format.

>>105722019
This works in evil too (as it should).

>>105722019
>>105722024
thx anon, didn’t even know

God this thread is absolutely infested with pedo weeb shit

>>105724798
I know, it's so fucking hot.

>>105724798
https://www.fsf.org/appeal/2025-spring/free-software-can-defy-dystopia
Even the FSF is a chad /a/ryanime weeb organization now. If you don't like it, go use a gay plebbit text editor like nvimeme, vsircode, jeetbrains, etc.

>>105727128
GNU/Based
GNU/Chads keep WINNING!
https://gnu.org/s/nano
https://gnu.org/s/emacs
https://gnu.org/s/ed

>>105685822
>minimal-emacs.d
based

>>105721806
I like how Floorp puts a lot of useful functionality along the fringes of the browser window. I particularly like the web panels on the right where you can load useful web pages into panels and use them like utilities.

>>105637395
trvke

>>105635248 (OP)
> What makes EMACS stand the test of time?
mental retardation, cowboy wannabe culture and then sunk cost fallacy

>>105733900
>le planigger9
It's dead, jim. Even Rob Pike took the LISPill.
https://github.com/robpike/lisp

>>105734332
Rob pike implements a lot of language stuffs for fun (apl, lisp, etc) and and nobody cares about Pike's opinion after Google (but he still uses plan9port Acme)

Also pic related

>>105655118
I don't pretend to be an Emacs god but I'm one of those guys who uses Emacs for the majority of things. Uncle Dave and System Crafters' videos helped me build up Emacs from the ground up, and DistroTube and Thoughtbot has some Emacs videos that demonstrate the capabilities of Emacs.

To be honest though, my biggest advice would be don't be afraid to copy snippets from other people's init files, if they're making it publicly available they are presumably ok for people to copy from them, and in many cases YouTubers like I mentioned built up the config along with their tutorial videos so you can compare it with your own progress. Don't copy everything from one person's init though, Cherrypick something together that's unique for your personal needs and preferences. If you get errors, research why, trial and error your way through it, or have an LLM explain to you.

Another thing I'd recommend is trying to set up a literate config file using org-babel. That makes things nicer to work with in the long run, and gets you into the habit of explaining your code snippets, which helps reinforce your understanding. It's also convenient being able to manage multiple config files in a single org file.

The next step once you've Frankensteined functionality from others' snippets is to extend those snippets further for functionality that might not be in the config you looked at. For example one thing I did was add a function that opened elfeed links in mpv when I press 'o' on them. That's a simple thing but useful - now I can keep track of YouTube channels through RSS, effectively allowing me to have the functionality of YouTube subscriptions, but without the need to open a web browser or have a Google account.

>>105735456
Meant to reply to:

>>105659990

>>105659990
I don't understand this meme at all. Having the most powerful editing environment, people's first priority is to bloat it up with eye candy.

What the fuck is wrong with all you idiots?

>>105718848
>976 packages
lol he's better at linux than most of the fetch thread

>>105736981
>changing font faces is bloat

>>105736981
There's nothing wrong with having some aesthetic sense. I realized this when I worked with someone who had no aesthetic sense at all. This guy would write the ugliest fucking code, because it never occurred to him that it was ugly (and also wrong). Beauty is a good thing. That's why we're attracted to it.

GNU is bloat.
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/e3

>>105738871
>GNU General Public License v2.0 or later

>>105735456
>set up a literate config file using org-babel
Here's an example of a small literate config that has a novel installation method.
https://git.muupi.com/gg/me

To install it, you open the README.org and do `M-x org-babel-tangle`. It then installs a config into ~/.config/me so that your default Emacs config is untouched, and uninstallation is easy.

hype moments and aura

>>105741201
>https://git.muupi.com/gg/me
nice ty

I love Vim. I use it for everything, including in the browser with Vimium C.

Vim has great plugins, I specially love vim-fugitive for git related stuff, so I tried really hard to make vim my main note-taking and knowledge base tool as well, I tried every plugin and configs but there was always something missing.

Some Vim note taking plugins were trying to mimic org-mode, so I got curious about Emacs.

I tried Doom Emacs + org-mode and holy shit this is exactly what I was looking for.

I still use Vim + tmux for most things, but my knowledge base is now in org-mode files, I was lied into thinking that you had to use one or the other, right now I found that using both Emacs + Vim is the best way to go.

Though, my Vim config was built from absolute scratch, I haven't gotten around doing much personalization to my Emacs config, I just had to tweak a couple of bindings to make it more Vim-like (specially around splits). Perhaps one day I'll do my own Emacs from scratch config project.

So try org-mode if you haven't, it's great. Semi-related video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRpHIa-2XCE

>>105743686
based vim & emacs chad

>>105743686
are you one of those "emacs is for org and magit why are you using it for anything else" people

>>105635248 (OP)
>still in use by the most skilled programmers

Literary who?

I’ve never seen who use the meme editor in real life in workplaces. And everyone is moving cursor like AI driven editors where money is flowing. The most productive programmers are firstly moving first in my social circles

>>105746197
>everyone is moving cursor like AI driven editors
Maybe in India, sure.

>>105746197
this post reeks of curry
do the needful and learning the english saar

>>105746491
>>105746559
I'm chang, not curry
How the fuck did you know I'm ESL
I want to kill my self

>>105748125
Because you're borderline illiterate, retard.

>>105746197
>Literary who?
This should be "Literally". Your next 2 sentences have weird phrasing too. It feels unusual and non-native.

>>105743686
I was kinda like you. Org-mode was what attracted me to Emacs, but I think back to how I was using it. In the beginning, it was so basic, but I thought it had really ergonomic keybindings, and I loved it anyway just as a simple outliner. I didn't even use org-babel or its spreadsheet functionality which I'm just now getting in to.

>>105748125
>How the fuck did you know I'm ESL
there's subtle, there's obvious, then there's your borderline-incomprehensible post

>>105750418
>>105748961
>>105748650
OK I modified it

Literally who? I've never seen anyone use the meme editor in real life at work. Meanwhile, everyone is shifting towards AI driven editors where money is flowing. The most productive programmers are the ones leading the way in my social circles.

>>105746559
>>105748125
What does ESL mean?

>>105751362
"English Second Language", that is the person's first language isn't English

>>105751410
>the person's first language isn't English
Pathetic

>>105701454
>>105743357
fantastic
https://youtu.be/FiVu7Lyfh9g?t=4

>>105635248 (OP)
it works and it attracts autists that release cool stuff for it, it has flaws but new projects don't gain enough traction to replace it

>>105753013
what are his best porn reviews?

>>105735456
>Another thing I'd recommend is trying to set up a literate config file using org-babel.
What's the benefit of this over just writing decent comments in your .el files?

>>105635248 (OP)
beautiful coherent software design tailored for the expert user
>>105641624
>i have to learn different words for things
emacs is not for you. you are sounding like a vs code kinda guy

>>105753013
http://xahlee.org/xa/funny/4chan.html

>>105708339
inb4 webshit, but I write a lot of React and React Native TSX code, and emacs' support of it is subpar. Every solution has quirks, and you never end up at the same QoL level than you do with out of the box VSCode.
>>105706757
Not to antagonize, but that sounds like people who say KDE tends to crash, or that Windows tends to bluescreen. Something you heard or experienced 20 years ago, and never reconsidered. Truth be said, Microshit's software has been steady many years since.

Pic related is my config. I have 12 extensions installed.
I don't want to make this discussion about VSCode in an emacs general, but it is what it is.

>>105635248 (OP)
imagine wasting time with this thing, and neovim

>>105721958
typical emacs reply
>the problem you're having is not a problem, you're just doing it wrong. you should adapt your workflow to 100 year old conventions, because emacs is perfect and flawless

>>105757533
I can't really say if there are highlighting quirks for other things, like I said I don't notice it too much because I went so long with no highlighting at all so I don't really rely on it for much.

>>105757533
>inb4 webshit, but I write a lot of React and React Native TSX code, and emacs' support of it is subpar
yeah treesitter support sucks ass and the default lsp client can't run multiple lsps at once so it's pretty much a non-starter for the standard webshitter stack
there's a new mhtml-ts-mode which i think kind of does what you need?

>>105683094
>all code written in Python 2 could not be leveraged in Python 3
This is objectively false and you are a retard for posting it.
Feel free to point on the graph where exactly this major breakage has happened.

>>105750490
Still smacks of ESL-dom. (ESL/incel lol near rhymes are never wrong)

>>105758368
>treesitter support sucks ass
explain? i use a few ts modes and it's bretty good, feels like a decent successor to emacs silly billy regex parsers

>>105758514
>le pythonshit popularity
braindead pythonigger award

>>105757052
xah the oldfag

>>105760303
Your concession is accepted.
Enjoy running 30 year old code, since there is almost zero new code written in your memelang.

>>105635248 (OP)
Ported to everything (Amiga Workbench 2.1, NetBSD, Void Linux????)
Has a wack ass web browser
???
TETRIS?????
GO???????
ITS OWN PACKAGE MANAGER????

yeah its pritty neat.

>>105762036
You run code older than that on a regular basis.

>>105765558
No, I don't.
All the software I run is still maintained.

>>105758587
Not him but trying to set up custom highlighting with treesitter was a genuinely unpleasant and ill-documented experience.

>>105763349
>https://github.com/janestreet/ecaml
Interesting
Also
>By Xavier Leroy <Xavier.Leroy@inria.fr>
https://github.com/ocaml/tuareg/blob/master/HISTORY#L5
Another Gigachad Emacs Wizard!

>>105767653
>SpamOracle is an statistical mail filtering tool written by Xavier Leroy
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/SpamOracle.html

>>105764160
I remember that on my amiga 1200, it had micro emacs I was quite young so didn't use it much.

>>105758514
> could not be leveraged
2 to 3 introduced subtle logic and math errors.
Probably shouldn’t use either.
It’s like the stupidest thing they could have done.

>>105757052
>>105761735
http://xahlee.org/xa/arts/cpu_fan_girl.html

>>105770133
>subtle logic and math errors
doubt.jpg
post one example.

>>105635751
>run emacs
>without all the "cruft" of glibc
nigga you want to run the crustiest text editor known to man, and you're concerned about glibc?

>single threaded
>needs a literal daemon running it in the background otherwise it takes over a second to launch unless you profile and optimize your config (lol?)
>need to download an entire major mode plugin for every language when there is already a LANGUAGE SERVER PROTOCOL
>require brain damaged freeshitter certifications to merge anything into emacs. For example, eglot being merged into emacs instead of lsp-mode
>bloated to the absolute max with crap baked into the bin instead of just making everything a community package
>evil mode shits the bed with org agenda last i tried. No point in using it since you will end up in a menu that evil mode doesn't fully support and you'll need to use the pinky bindings
>evil mode also sucks. So much stuff that should enter jump table just doesn't unless you hack it in yourself
>only redeeming quality, org mode, already has a pretty complete port in neovim that actually functions with vim bindings

>>105772505
>neovimeme
>hjkl modal autism
>no decent gui support
>le heckin tmux terminal haxxor larping cope
>constant plugin breakage because some lua/vimscript fuckup
>muh donate to uganda

>>105703331
2hu emac
https://github.com/kpcftsz/.emacs.d

>>105775096
He should use use-package.

>>105772862
Weird my plugins never break

>>105771874
the old sticky
based xah