Anybody else thinks people like Alan Kay, McCarthy, are just salty egoistic losers who are mad at the universe for not taking them seriously?
They talk about how abhorrent the current C-style languages, OSes, etc are and provide their own golden solution.

EXCEPT, it's all TALK. These guys never write any shippable piece of software, with their own golden solution. Every single talk they give is just about living in a fantasy land.
There were many programmers at XEROX PARC, and only Alan is interested in giving fantasy talks because the rest of them were probably too busy working on solving real practical problems.

What was Alan Kay's contribution to the community? None. OOP was not invented by him, and even if he did, so what? Name one revolutionary piece of software that was made possible by "OOP" paradigm? None. Mac, Linux, Windows, Unix, Starcraft, Doom, etc all of them were written in a procedural way.
Programming is "Problem Oriented" if the problem demands for objects, I will use objects. Wtf is this "object oriented" retardation?

>>105648193 (OP)
He's a wanker nepo baby

>>105648193 (OP)
They’ve literally been quoted saying they respect C and people should know both Lisp and C, and Kay’s OOP is way better than C++ and Java OOP.
>shippable
Idiot

>>105648336
>incoherent seething
found the LISP weenie

>>105648373
>incoherent
What are you having trouble understanding about "John McCarthy thought C was a very useful language"

>>105648193 (OP)
>These guys never write any shippable piece of software
McCarthy created garbage collection in 1959, fully 36 years before Java used it
Would you be impressed if he made some shooter game like doom or some shit instead lol

>>105648193 (OP)
>Programming is "Problem Oriented" if the problem demands for objects, I will use objects. Wtf is this "object oriented" retardation?
how do you do that without an object system in place lol

>>105648193 (OP)
google mostly written in java anon.

>>105648746
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>105648702
> Would you be impressed if he made some shooter game like doom or some shit instead lol
I would be impressed if these guys release a big production quality product that people will "pay" for.

Here are some things that any "academic" priest should do to prove his ideas:
1. An OS that people would actually pay for.
2. A high-end game not-some trivial shit like Vampire Survivor or another 2D-clone. A good example would be, a 3D game engine that is "competing" with Unity/Unreal.
3. A web browser that is more responsive than whatever the fuck we currently have.

The key point is, people should want to "pay" for your product. The difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional is paid by others, and the amateur is not. I am not saying, one is more skilled than others. Amateurs always make non-serious hobby projects.

>>105648193 (OP)
Welcome to the club.

>>105648804
>i'm only impressed by money
Holy shit no wonder the market is fucked. You badly need to be filtered out of this field.
What's more people are paying shitloads for McCarthy's ideas in case you haven't noticed, if you use Java or any form of garbage collection, you are using his ideas.
Implying computer science should be about making fucking computer games and selling slop is just peak brainlet. Find another field and do everyone a favor. I recommend marketing based off your interests.

>>105649327
> Commie

>>105648804
>The difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional is paid by others, and the amateur is not. I am not saying, one is more skilled than others.
The most midwit take of all time.

>>105649487
is that it? fuck you're dumb lol

>>105648804
>researchers should be making games

>>105648804
>muh games
you're a retard
also Alan Kay literally worked at Atari

>>105649594
But it was not "just" Alan. There were many other programmers. Why are you not seeing them going around making talks about some fantasy land?

>>105649568
> ignores OS and the web browser
But yes, they should be making games.

>>105648804
i dont understand how you guys think these researchers are a BIG deal if they didnt even come up with a new fortnite dance generator or idk some fortnite dance studio where you can create your own dances and use them in the game and maybe even perform them on a platform like tiktok and then it virtualizes it (i dont code programs) so i can use it INGAME- idk just spitting some ideas here, i know its maybe cringe but you know what i mean. but thats what we care about i dont care about garbage collection (idk that) or whatever but i like COOL tech, maybe something like fortnite vr??

or maybe some game where you can like do stuff you cant do in others like in real life open world

>>105649604
>n-no I actually meant you need to literally write an entire game from scratch on your own hehe
>names Doom as his example of a revolution in the OP
lmao

It's difficult time wise to both educate and do at the same time.
If someone does all the research and edification, the least someone else could do is contribute to the development of the concepts.

>>105649614
When did I say that? Alan kay didn't invented shit. He word at XEROX PARC. I want to see the opinions of people who actually worked on truly revolutionary stuff like GUIs. But none of them are interested in going around, giving talks.

>>105649639
what are you talking about i am agreeing with you i am NOT quotign you

>>105649615
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>105648193 (OP)
>revolutionary software
>Doom

>>105649650
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>105649650
technically it was though. one of the most revolutionary applications. doesnt mean it had any academic relevance

>>105649650
That's already included in the examples.

>>105649660
> doesnt mean it had any academic relevance
95% of academic literature has no relevance

>>105649660
>doesnt mean it had any academic relevance
Doom and Quake are still studied and iterated on to this day.

>>105649670
in the youtube essays you keep watching, yes.

>>105649667
>i have no idea how academia works and i am very bitter that i dont have a degree, urgh WHO NEEDS DEGRESS AMIRITE?? haha we are the REAL programmers, look at this game i made with raylib! yep its C ;)

>>105649704
95% of academic literature has no academic relevance

>>105648804
>consumer brained wageslave (unemployed)
sad!

>>105649716
yeah, whats your point though? thats literally how academia works. why are you bitter (:

>>105649717
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>105649704
>in the youtube essays you keep watching, yes.
I'm not sure which anon you think I am but it's not whichever one you thought.

>>105649726
You are contradicting your own statements.

>>105648804
Amateurs also then make the paradigms and design the algorithms on which professional software is built.

>>105649740
nope, not at all, its just you not understanding what papers and research is.

>>105648193 (OP)
this board is so fucking retarded

>>105648193 (OP)
>thinks nobody takes McCarthy seriously
This is how everyone can tell you're a fucking idiot.

>>105650466
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>105648193 (OP)
truthnuke

>>105648804
You realize McCarthy is dead, right? In any case, lisp machines existed, people paid lots of money for them, they had groundbreaking software like all the various s-graphics stuff used for movies and shit which then became Mirai which was used for more movies and games (LOTR movies, N64 stuff), and so on. Also the lisp academics apparently had much greater plans for the web, but then that british retard at CERN shit out something good enough so nobody cared.

>>105649614
this but unironically

>>105648193 (OP)
>They talk about how abhorrent the current C-style languages, OSes, etc are and provide their own golden solution.
The C-style languages took over after languages like Lisp and Smalltalk were popular.

>EXCEPT, it's all TALK. These guys never write any shippable piece of software, with their own golden solution. Every single talk they give is just about living in a fantasy land.
They made the Xerox Alto, Dorado, Star, Symbolics Lisp machines, and a lot of other systems from the 70s into the 90s. Ethernet and the design of the GUI (desktop, windows, buttons, icons, menus, mouse pointer, etc.) came from Xerox. They had a full GUI back when C/Unix people's idea of "user friendly" was C shell. They also had a big influence on the design of the Classic Mac OS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolics
>Under contract from AT&T, Symbolics developed Minima, a real-time Lisp run-time environment and operating system for the Ivory processor. This was delivered in a small hardware configuration featuring much random-access memory (RAM), no disk, and dual network ports. It was used as the basis for a next-generation carrier class long-distance telephone switch.
>The Symbolics Document Examiner hypertext system originally used for the Symbolics manuals- it was based on Zmacs following a design by Janet Walker, and proved influential in the evolution of hypertext.
>Symbolics produced the first workstation which could genlock, the first to have real time video I/O, the first to support digital video I/O and the first to do HDTV.[20]

A full list of their accomplishments is much too long for a 4chan post, of course.

>>105652134
>Also the lisp academics apparently had much greater plans for the web
Xanadu was a bullet we dodged without knowing it

Academic computer science is the worst thing to ever have happened to the computer industry. It's nothing but masturbation over completely useless and irrelevant bullshit that has nothing to do with software development. Notice how all the people who have actually pushed technology forward in important ways either never went to college, or have degrees in something completely different from computer science.

>>105653677
none of them would have any languages to write in without academic people
gigabrainlet post

>lisp weenies are still crying
holy shit

>>105653685
C is the only language you need and it was crated by a guy who didn't hadn't even seen a computer until after he finished college.

>>105653701
C literally invented nothing. Everything in C was made by academics. C people just copied what other people already invented. You're praising a guy for pooping in a toilet while whining about the people who invented the toilet, running water, and sewer.

>>105653784
Nobody in academia has ever invented anything useful. They spend all their lives coming up with theories about things, then other people with actually real world skills use those theories as a basis to create real things.

>>105653784
undefined behavior was invented by C

>>105653800
>undefined behavior was invented by C
Languages had undefined behavior before C. C literally invented nothing.

>>105648193 (OP)
Academia in general is empty, sometimes a good paper makes to quality usefulness, but it's all about citation masturbation

It's not rooted in reality anymore, it's not even science as it should be with experimentation, it's just empty discourses forming a circlejerk of citations

If you wanna see how bad things are look at the music field, where there's ZERO contributions other than weird experimental orchestras that mock the spirit of classical music, while most of the good composers went to movie/games OST

>>105653856
source?

>>105648193 (OP)
This is why Erlang is the only functional language worth admiration. It too was created by engineers to build real infrastructure (high uptime phone systems, which we take for granted today but was no mean feat then). The funny thing too, is it being functional was more of a side effect. It was written to be fault tolerant first, and some pieces of the functional paradigm (mostly immutability) happened to make sense for that. Academic purists hate Erlang because it’s not “pure enough”, never mind that critical, useful software is built with it.

>>105653701
>C is the only language you need and it was crated by a guy who didn't hadn't even seen a computer until after he finished college.
You are such a fucking idiot lmao, Dennis Richie was a PhD candidate at Harvard and you're sitting here thinking fucking Doom and shit are the greatest intellectual achievements of all time

>>105653988
>>105653701
>>105653685
Academia was decent, now it's garbage

>>105653690
And yeah, and it seems like they have conveniently ignored Windows/Mac/Linux from their consideration zone.

>>105653623
As I said, Alan was not the only programmer that worked at Xerox. But for some reason, he is treated as the literal incarnation of Xerox.

>>105648193 (OP)
>OP just learned about tech bros
That's literally their job anon. Tech bros only talk and never work

>>105653932
Erlang is just another example of "Worst is better" according to AcademicTards. Anything that shatters their fantasy land automatically comes under "Worst is better" shield.

>>105654727
"Worse is Better" is a shilling tactic used by C/Unix people. It has nothing to do with academia except that they identified and named it. C/Unix shills hate the saying "Worse is Better" because it's a way of calling out their tactic, like gaslighters hate the word gaslighting because they don't like that people have a word to identify what they are doing. If you make something good, the C/Unix shills will say it's actually a bad thing. For example, they say being able to call a function in a separately compiled library (dynamic linking) is bad but having to convert everything to a text stream and pass it through a 1-way pseudo-file (pipes) to mimic function calls is good. That's an example of Worse is Better.

>>105654941
Anon, Worse is better is literally used for anything that is mainstream but is not advocated by the academic circle. It's such a good tactic too.
> If X is so good, why nobody uses it.
> muh you see, there is this phenomenon which proves X is still better

>>105654026
Yeah this is actually the key. Corporations won and letting the middle class gatekeep higher standards of living via “education” is not something they are interested in. Business and education are different beasts.

>>105648336
>should know Lisp
Why? You don't need more than asm especially nowadays when chatgpt can type out any routine you need for you in half a second.

>>105655585
>AI nigger hallucinating like its false god
I just asked chatgpt to write me some simple z80 code and it ended up between "here's where the code would actually go" and hallucinating garbage subroutines that won't do shit
I know "le asm" is a quintessential nocoder response but using lisp usually means knowing how to implement a compiler and AIs literally cannot write a script to update gentoo

>>105648702
>garbage collection
He invented mark and sweep. Not garbage collection.
Operating systems reclaimed memory from processes before 1959 and they let you spawn subprocesses. If the process is dead then the memory clearly isn't reachable and can thus be reclaimed, Mcarthy just decided you could halt a program at any time and do this rather than wait for it to finish. It's not particularly innovative.

>>105648193 (OP)
>There were many programmers at XEROX PARC, and only Alan is interested in giving fantasy talks because the rest of them were probably too busy working on solving real practical problems.
There are other problems in computing besides opening and closing files

>>105655676
LGTM not sure what your problem is. If any of the mnemocis/addressing are wrong it's a simple ed command to fix it

>>105655234
>Anon, Worse is better is literally used for anything that is mainstream but is not advocated by the academic circle. It's such a good tactic too.
You're just making up what you think words mean instead of learning what they actually mean. "Worse is Better" is a shill tactic used by people shilling the inferior product to attack superior (by normal common sense standards) products by inverting what good and bad are from the common sense definition. For example, "this language prevents bugs" is common sense, but "this language produces more bugs" (combined with mental gymnastics about how that's actually a good thing) is Worse is Better. The Worse is Better tactic was named because a lot of what C/Unix people say is the opposite of what makes sense to normal people. C/Unix people were actually trying to argue that having actual strings and arrays is bad and you should use null-terminated strings and pointer arithmetic instead.

>>105648193 (OP)
there's 2 talks by Kay that I always revisit: they are canon to CS.

but I would argue the lesson from OOP is isolation and message passing. OOP lost touch with this and that's Kay's fault. great ideas are sticky and I would argue the world started to look back at isolation and message passing more and more with every decade since. closure, go, ... only erlang did isolation and message passing right, IMO... which is ironic, b/c OTP is a declarative lang.

>>105657764
EDIT *not* Kay's fault

>>105653870
>If you wanna see how bad things are look at the music field, where there's ZERO contributions other than weird experimental orchestras that mock the spirit of classical music, while most of the good composers went to movie/games OST
As much as I'm not in a hurry to defend the average contemporary composer, this is a really retarded take. Game and film scoring involves writing pop tunes with somewhat more elaborate instrumentation (or not), in almost all cases. You're basically adopting OP's mentality of appeal to the average consumer being more valuable than actual artistic or scientific achievement, whether you personally find those palatable or not: Music academia isn't just about composition, either, and if anything composers themselves are usually not those in research-driven positions, it's armchair musicology niggas